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How Liberals Plan To Destroy The Senate With 51 Votes

Progressives, liberals and left of center politicians have teamed up to radically curtail the rights of Republican Senators in the next Congress.  They have a plan to “kill the filibuster,” so that they can establish a top down system of control next year in the Senate.  This plan to kill the filibuster will stifle dissent and relegate Republican Senators to observer status in the newly reformed Senate.  If you thought that Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) ran a tight ship during her tenure, get ready for a Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) willing to obstruct all Republican opportunities to offer amendments and extend debate.

The left is promoting a myth that the filibuster can be changed with merely 51 votes.  Progressive Katrina vanden Heuvel wrote over at the Washington Post demanding that liberal Senators rid the Senate of Rule 22 by a simple majority vote in the new Congress.  This is nothing more than a naked power grab by the left so they can confirm far left wing nominees to the Courts and to establish complete control over the agenda of the United States Senate.

The Senate’s rules are constitutional.  According to Article I, Section 5 of the Constitution, “each house may determine the rule of its proceedings.”  Senate Rule 22 sets up a procedure for debate to be curtailed with a three-fifths vote (60) of Senators.  This rule has been in place since 1917 when the Senate had a 2/3rds requirement to shut off debate. Furthermore, the Senate was set up as a continuing body with only one third of Senators seats up for election every two years pursuant to Article 1, Section 3.  The left is promoting a fallacy and they hope that the media does not question the baseless assertion that the filibuster is unconstitutional. 

The official Senate web site puts forth one historical perspective of the Senate as a continuing body.

To foster values such as deliberation, reflection, continuity, and stability in the Senate, the framers made several important decisions. First, they set the senatorial term of office at six years even though the duration of a Congress is two years. The Senate, in brief, was to be a “continuing body” with one-third of its membership up for election at any one time. As Article I, section 3, states: “Immediately after they shall be assembled in consequence of the first election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three classes.” Second, to be a senator, individuals had to meet different qualifications compared to service in the House of Representatives. To hold office, senators have to be at least 30 years of age and nine years a citizen; House members are to be 25 years and seven years a citizen. Senators, in brief, were to be more seasoned and experienced than representatives. Finally, the indirect election of senators by state legislatures would serve to check precipitous decisions which might emanate from the directly elected House and buttress the states’ role as a counterweight to the national government.

The left is moving forward with the argument that the filibuster is unconstitutional and that the Senate is not a continuing body.  Ian Millhiser at The American Prospect relies on two Supreme Court cases that are not relevant to the filibuster for the assertion that the filibuster is unconstitutional.

The Supreme Court’s first clear pronouncement on whether past lawmakers can bind future lawmakers was an 1879 case known as Newton v. Commissioners. In that case, the Ohio Legislature had passed a law in 1846 providing that the Mahoning County seat was “permanently established” at Canfield, Ohio. Nevertheless, in 1874, state lawmakers passed a new law moving the county seat to Youngstown, Ohio. Canfield’s residents were not amused. During its time as Mahoning County seat, Canfield made significant investments in its county government, purchasing land to house county buildings and spending a significant sum to build a courthouse “suitable for the transaction of the public business of the county.” Losing the county seat was also a tremendous blow to local businesses, as Mahoning County residents would routinely travel to Canfield to vote or to petition their government, patronizing Canfield establishments throughout their visit. Nevertheless, the Supreme Court held that the 1874 Legislature had the power to take what the 1846 Legislature had given. In the Court’s words, newly elected legislators “have the same power of repeal and modification which [past legislators] had of enactment.” Lawmakers cannot tie the hands of their successors. In its 1932 decision in Reichelderfer v. Quinn, the Court established that Newton‘s holding applies as much to acts of Congress as it does to state laws. In that case, Congress previously enacted a law providing that a large plot of land in D.C. was “perpetually dedicated and set apart as a public park or pleasure ground for the benefit and enjoyment of the people of the United States.” A later Congress, however, changed this law to require that a fire station be built on part of the set-aside land.  The justices unanimously rejected a challenge to this new law. Just as in Newton, “the will of a particular Congress … does not impose itself upon those to follow in succeeding years.”

As you can see, there is no Supreme Court case declaring the filibuster unconstitutional cited above.  This is an activist interpretation of two stale and off point decisions.  When you hear liberals declaring that the filibuster is unconstitutional because of the Reichelderfer Case, know that these liberals are reading talking points that have no basis in fact.

Millhiser goes on with another false assertion.

What the Senate is not allowed to do, however, is tell future senators what rules must apply to their proceedings. Because Reichelderfer prohibits a previous Congress from tying the hands of a future Congress, the rules governing Senate procedure in 2010 cannot bind a newly elected Senate in 2011. The old Senate rules essentially cease to exist until the new Senate ratifies them, so a determined bloc of 51 senators could eliminate the filibuster altogether by demanding a rules change at the beginning of a new session. Once the new Senate begins to operate under the old rules, however, this can function as a ratification of the old rules — essentially locking those rules in place for another two years.

The House of Representatives is not a continuing body and they adopt new rules each Congress.  The same is not true of the Senate.  The Senate is a continuing body, therefore Mr. Millhiser is flat out wrong.  Millhiser is not the only one promoting this myth.

Katrina vanden Heuvel is promoting the myth that there is only one day to change the rules of the Senate with 51 votes.

There is only one day in the year when the Senate can make changes to its rules without the fear of that process, itself, being filibustered – and that day is fast approaching. Jan. 5, 2011, will be the first day of the 112th Congress and, as such, the only day where a simple majority can vote to change the Senate rules (on all other days, 67 votes would be required).

The left is wrong on the facts of this debate.  When a liberal tells you that the filibuster is unconstitutional, ask them when the Supreme Court ruled specifically that the filibuster is unconstitutional.  They will not have an answer. 

When a progressive tells you that the Senate can change the rules with a simple majority vote, ask them how it is possible when the rules specifically state in Rule 22 that a 2/3rds vote is necessary to shut off debate on a rules change. 

Don’t be fooled by these leftist who will twist Supreme Court precedent, the Constitution and the explicit rules of the Senate to suit their short term goal of taking complete control over the Senate.

COMMENTS

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    If they vote to change the rules with a simple majority, I don’t see the Supreme Court doing anything about it. If they want to change the rules, they will, but they’ll rue the day when the gate swings the other way.

    • http://www.billyockham.blogspot.com mousestalker

      If they go through with it, the Supremes are unlikely to do anything. What I do not understand is why they believe they need to do this. It is entirely possible that they will lose control of the Senate in the near future, possibly as early as 2012.

      If the Republicans sweep and the filibuster rule is gone then the GOP can enact whatever they please. Further, as of the start of the next session, the Republicans control the House. The Dems can pass whatever they like with a 51 majority in the Senate, it’s going to die in the House unless they can draw off some Republican support.

      The only reason to go for the change is if they think they can jam through an awful lot of appointees. And that seems fairly far fetched. This is a change that will bite them in the butt if it goes through. Guaranteed.

    • benko

      Does anyone think there will be enough non-RINO republicans with spine to actually do what you are implying e.g. after 2012 elections?

      • ohiohistorian

        With the Republicans in control of the House, the message will be simple. Harry, if you want ANY money for ANYTHING in Nevada, then you will toe the line. Otherwise, ALL NV appropriations will be zero. But the message has to be sent now.

        I am not sure that Rule 22 totally stops the 51 vote. There is also the ability for the Majority Leader to call on the Parliamentarian to rule on being able to set aside the 2/3 majority on ending debate. If you remember, this was the “nuclear” option under the Republicans and how they figured they would get around a filibuster, until the “Gang of 14″ (McCain again) sabotaged that strategy.

        Maybe that is the other way. Tell John to go talk to his friends on the left side of the aisle and tell him not to come back without an agreement that the filibuster rule stands. If he were a GOOD negotiator, we would tell him not to come back without an agreement to reset it to a 2/3 majority, which is where it was before Robert Byrd became Majority Leader and only had 62 Democrats.

      • eschultz

        There is no such thing as a “RINO”. The Republican Party is whatever the politicians calling themselves Republicans consider themselves to be. In other words, the Republican Party is Conservative, Moderate, Liberal, Progressive, Socialist, Libertarian, etc., as there are people, with Rs behind their names, who fit all of these categories.

        The correct argument would be “CINO”, or perhaps “LINO” for the Libertarians here at RedState. There are numerous politicians, with Rs behind their names, who are NOT Conservative, but instead Moderate, Liberal, Progressive, etc.

        • boxedquad

          The “R” has been abused for so long, it is difficult to tell the players, we need a score board listing them in correct sub groups. McCain is no special group leader, need I say more.

    • Common_Cents

      Unless Reps finally grow a freakin spine.

      Dems would scream bloody murder if the Reps did the same exact thing. The media would jump in as it is the worst thing ever and Reps would back down.

      We need a couple more elections to get enough real patriots in congress that have some sort of backbone.

    • anjinconsulting

      but only when wielded by a man who knows how to use it; and the current GOP leadership is far too timid to do so.

      • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

        There’s nothing to change. If the D’s change the rule, when the R’s are back in charge they just leave the rule.

    • al003

      Since the Senate is a Continuing Body, the rules of the Senate are also Continuously in force. There is not one second of the Senate Time that is not under these rules. Continuous means always in force. The instant the gavel hits the table is the instant the rules become ‘in force, always’. For Christ Sake this is not brain surgery. Think, that is all that is required – Oh, excuse me, for a moment I forgot we are dealing with DUMBORATS WHO DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO THINK.

  • izoneguy

    • ohiohistorian

      After all, these are all dead people and people of “limited intellect” (e.g. Friedman) where they have intellectual GIANTS like Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton who claim we are a democracy!!!

      • mikerazar
  • fpete13527

    ….the GOP Senate must aggressively stand up against this…now

    IMO the GOP fight against this one has to happen and it can’t be half way. The Dems have broken the law for the entire last two years and the GOP has been less than cream puffs (on purpose.)

    The GOP must fight any cloture on this piece of #$%^ bill and filibuster against it (they still can now) even if it temporarily puts half of them in the hospital from exhaustion from speaking.

    No compromise on this. The way I see it, this is a hill to take at all costs, now. There is no room to wait until 2012 and then get back changing the rules again. It will take too long and it won’t work even with the change.

    Fight now!! This will be the cornerstone to any forward movement in any of the other critical areas that need to be fought..now. The Dems know this and that is why they want to continue to break the law. They know their legislation is garbage and illegal otherwise they wouldn’t have to attempt this.

    GOP Senate, don’t you think it is about time you fought HARD for something other than keeping your earmarks and attacking the Tea Parties (IE the American people) ??? Start your fight against the DemComms for once, and start it now!

    • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

      a change in the real GOP — the precinct committeemen. The only way “the GOP” (that is, the elected GOP senators and congressmen, our elected public servants) will stick their necks out and actually go to real political war against the Democrats is if enough of them think there’s a real, credible chance that they might be taken out in their next primary election. And the BEST way for us “little people,” “we the people” referred to in the Constitution, to make the incumbent Republicans sweat that possibility of a real primary election challenge is by increasing, greatly, the number of conservatives in those all-important local precinct committeeman slots.

      Every state has a different system. The grass roots tea partiers and 9.12-ers in Utah figured out their system in 2009 and 2010 and were successful in getting huge numbers of new, conservative delegates elected to go to the Utah Republican Party nominating convention for the U.S. Senate race. As you know, incumbent RINO Bob Bennett didn’t even get 40 per cent of the vote on the first ballot and was, therefore denied a spot on the primary ballot.

      I told the tale here:

      http://www.redstate.com/coldwarrior/2010/05/08/2101-of-3500-of-75000-denied-bob-bennett/

      (Sorry, I don’t have an html editor on this machine.)

      If we conservatives had learned the rules, as the Utah grass roots conservatives did, in every state in the 2010 election cycle (more than half of the precinct committeeman slots are vacant in local committees, on average), we’d have a lot more conservatives in the Congress and we’d have a lot more conservatives getting elected to the internal Party leadership slots (those elections are going on right now in most states — are you involved?).

      Why should the Republican incumbents fight for our rights if they don’t see us increasing our participation level in the Party? With no change in the grass roots of the Party, history tells the incumbents that they have a greater than 95 per cent chance of winning both the primary election and the general election. Without any real change in the Party ranks, their attitude toward reelection is akin to that of Alfred E. Newman of MAD magazine fame: “What, Me Worry?”

      We conservative Republicans get the “conservative” elected public servants that our collective lack of real political participation deserves. Currently, all it would take is about 200,000 conservatives to fill up, next month, all of the empty chairs at the local Party committee meetings.

      Ever been to a local Republican Party committee meeting? Why not give it a whirl? You might be surprised by what you find there. You might find it to be fun. You might find it’s the best way you can actually do something to change the status quo.

      Thank you.

      For Liberty,

      ColdWarrior

      • fpete13527

        And I spoke to some of the people we put in office tonight to include a state and Federal Rep.. Also got other committeemen to do the same tonight.

        The reason for my burst here is that there may be little time to really get to the Senate Republicans as powerfully as needed….immediately. I say we must put the heat on similar to fight against omnibus 5 last week. Phoning etc.

        My understanding is that there still can be a filibuster against the end of the filibuster at this point. More knowledgeable legal interpretations are further down in post. I’m not a lawyer, but the ones I know say the GOP Senate still can filibuster a rules change. If I’m wrong, this burst is mute but I STILL say we must push the GOP Senate to fight…both from the long term best way (Precinct Project) and some times in the immediate burn up the phones, like maybe for this.

        The Precinct Project is absolutely the main action tool that I support and that I will continue to engage in extensively between now and 2012, especially with Precinct walking and GOTV.

        Thus far the Precinct Project has worked for us here to put at least 4 or 5 Tea Party candidates in office and to kill a few TERRIBLE BIlls, including the biggest Bill Kill win….the defeat of Light Rail Tax.

        Great job CW in your promotion of the Precinct Project and great job on your videos and website. You are doing God’s work big time!!

        • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

          I knew you are a PC and already “get” The Neighborhood Precinct Committeeman Strategy.

          I just believe phone calls and faxes and e-mails to the incumbent congresscritters are pretty much pointless unless the congresscritters see conservatives actually organizing back home in a way that threatens their ability to get reelected. And that the most tangible way for conservatives to convey that is by showing the congresscritters that conservatives are organizing and joining the local Party committees.

          Any chance you can write a Diary about your experiences “in the trenches?” How you got involved, what you found, how you and others made an impact, etc.? It might inspire others to follow your example.

          Thanks,

          ColdWarrior

      • audax

        Thanks.

        • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

          Please just take what I wrote and massage it any way you want. Add some personal experiences, if possible.

          I hope and pray enough conservatives will get involved in the coming year where it really matters — inside the Republican Party itself.

          Thank you for all you are doing.

          ColdWarrior

          • audax
      • audax

        …bringing this up! Just heard you on Hugh’s show and don’t think he gets it on this issue. We need someone who is a Conservative-noun to beat Sherrod Brown WITH! Keep up the good work! Keep calling in, ask Rush about it!

        • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

          I happened to be listening to his program yesterday and he said he knew how to fix the EPA to prevent them from imposing the idiotic carbon dioxide rules on us by decree. Oh, it’s oh so simple. Just take away, legislatively, their rule-making authority. Ta da!

          That’s not the “how,” that’s the obvious “what” to do. But, to get to the position to be able to revoke that authority, we first have to elect better people to the Congress. That’s the “how.” And, to elect better people to the legislature, “we the [conservative] people” have to get involved in politics at the precinct level.

          Hewitt has never been “in the trenches.” His career path was undergraduate studies, law school, a gig in the White House, then ghost writing Nixon’s memoirs, etc. Then a stint for years and years on the local L.A. PBS affiliate debating liberals on a program no one ever watched (although I watched it occasionally).

          I don’t know if you caught it, but he said, “I’ve met you.” He hasn’t. I suspect he’s met someone else over here in Phoenix when he and the other Salem Radio talking heads converge here to “talk issues” where they debate the niceties of all sorts of issues with their listeners but never give the listeners any POLITICAL SOLUTIONS to what is ailing us.

          Day after day after day callers call in to Hugh Hewitt’s program breathlessly exclaiming how outraged they are over the latest loss of their liberties. Hewitt’s solution, for a while, was to send money to the NRSC. Doh! Or send faxes. He NEVER says, “Caller, have you ever been a ‘card carrying member’ of the Republican Party? Have you ever walked a precinct? Do you know that where you live, probably, about half of the precinct committeeman slots in the Republican Party are vacant? And that, as a PC, you will be in the BEST position to threaten the incumbency of your elected public servants?”

          Why doesn’t he say this? I don’t know. Could be he just doesn’t know.

          He seems to think that if we are just outraged enough, somehow the incumbents will be threatened.

          I laughed when he said “it’s about replacing Sherrod Brown.” Doh! That’s the “what.” The “how” to replace Sherrod Brown is what we need to focus on. And that take warm bodies in precinct committeeman chairs.

          Thanks.

          ColdWarrior

  • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

    Why not use it to protect it?

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      It only takes 51 to change the Senate Rules come hell or high water.

      • JSobieski

        First, its important to point out that Senate Rules continue from Congress to Congress, unlike the House Rules which are essentially re-created from scratch with each Congress.

        http://rules.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=RuleV
        SUSPENSION AND AMENDMENT OF THE RULES
        1. No motion to suspend, modify, or amend any rule, or any part thereof, shall be in order, except on one day’s notice in writing, specifying precisely the rule or part proposed to be suspended, modified, or amended, and the purpose thereof. Any rule may be suspended without notice by the unanimous consent of the Senate, except as otherwise provided by the rules.

        2. The rules of the Senate shall continue from one Congress to the next Congress unless they are changed as provided in these rules.

        Second, Rule XXII appears to require a 2/3 vote for amendments to the Senate Rules
        http://rules.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=RuleXXII

        “Is it the sense of the Senate that the debate shall be brought to a close?” And if that question shall be decided in the affirmative by three-fifths of the Senators duly chosen and sworn — except on a measure or motion to amend the Senate rules, in which case the necessary affirmative vote shall be two-thirds of the Senators present and voting — then said measure, motion, or other matter pending before the Senate, or the unfinished business, shall be the unfinished business to the exclusion of all other business until disposed of.

        Seems to me that a fillibuster against a rules change requires 67 votes. not a mere 60.

        I recall that the “nuclear option” was not based on an amendment of the rules but rather a constitutional ruling of the Senate Parliamentarian on whether judicial nominees could be fillibustered.

        The Senate Rules are attrocious reading. Much less clear than say the federal rules of evidence, or the Uniform Commercial Code.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          but I wouldn’t bet mine.

          The reason I’m pretty sure it only takes 51 is that I recall this discussion coming up around the G14 time and it seems that we couldn’t muster 51 because of the “seven”.

          I would rely on people with more patience than either you or me to actually read the Senate Rules.

          • Brian Darling

            Under the Democrats rules change theory. They claim that the Senate’s rules expire with the end of this Congress and do not come back into play until the Senate starts the consideration of a bill or nomination for the first time. Under this theory, they can change the rules without the threat of a filibuster if they do it before they conduct any business. The left has this gamed so they can change the rules without the threat of a filibuster of a rules change.

          • JSobieski

            say that the Senate Rules are ongoing. See Rule V

            Rules V and XXII make this liberal threat bunk.

            In terms of the G14 thing, we needed additional votes to refer the Constitutional issue to the parliamentarian. The G14 thing wasn’t a straight up vote, it was a call for an interpretation of the Constitution by the Senate Parliamentarian.

            I don’t think anything will happen to the fillibuster because its clearly against Senate Rules.

          • JSobieski

            2. The rules of the Senate shall continue from one Congress to the next Congress unless they are changed as provided in these rules.

            As provided in these rules refers to Rule XXII,

          • mikerazar

            If there are no continuing Senate rules, who gets to decide which new Senators to seat? Who, for that matter gets to rule on whether a given rules change has passed? Who gets to count the votes? And so on…

            The fact is that a certain amount of good faith in obeying rules is required even before any legislative body can function.

            How does the new House come into being every two years? Same questions as for the Senate. Yet somehow they manage.

            These are really interesting questions but I don’t know of any controlling law.

  • swami7774

    …the scary “nuclear option” when the GOP briefly considered it a few years ago?
    Why is it okay for Dems to do it, but not for Republicans(he asked rhetorically)?

    • vamoose

      The nuclear option falls short of describing Democrat designs in this case. The correct term would be “coup d’etat.”

    • Brian Darling

      in 2005 for Rs to float the Nuclear Option. It is wrong now.

      • Martin Knight

        … was a good idea no matter what.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          of a hearing and a floor vote for nominees within a set period, say sixty days from the date the committee receives the nomination and information relevant to the nominee, but no more than 90 days from the nomination.

          I would also have a separate standard for some executive branch nominees. Cabinet officers and maybe two levels below get the 60/90 day rule, other political appointees have no time limit since their hearings are generally non-controversial and they kind of get batched.

          • Brian Darling

            You will get more extreme nominees if you place a time period on nominees to be reported to the Senate floor for a vote. This rule would an a no filibuster on judicial noms rule would empower President Obama to appoint nominees far more extreme than Sotomayor and Kagan. Both Kagan and Sotomayor went out of their way to run afar from anti-Second Amendment activities and liberal activism. If you remove the filibuster and one of the right leaning 5 justices leaves the Supreme Court, then expect a far leftists to be nominated and confirmed. The threat of a filibuster is a check against the President and clearly President Obama has moderated his picks in the face of a possible filibuster. Eliminating judicial filibusters in the last two years of the Obama presidency wouldl be a huge mistake.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            But, at the end of the day, I happen to believe that elections have consequences and executives should be able to staff with their people, including lifetime appointments of judges and justices. Historically I think that requiring 60 votes to move a candidate to a vote has hurt us a whole lot more than the Democrats.

            I don’t disagree with your comment about the last two years but we’d be light years ahead if we’d been able to move judicial nominees for the eight years of the Bush Administration.

          • Brian Darling

            But that does not lead to the conclusion that the Senate should be a rubber stamp for the President.
            The Constitution is written with a separation of powers. The Senate has the constitutional duty of “advise and consent.” The President does not get his nominees automatically confirmed by virtue of winning an election.
            The Bush Administration confirmed Alito and Roberts to the High Court. I don’t see any problems with Dems filibustering them to be on the Supreme Court. Liberal Senators, like Senator Barack Obama, supported the filibuster of nominees, yet now he wants the Senate to rubber stamp his appointees to the Court.
            A handful of Republicans argued in 2005 that the filibuster is unconstitutional and Senator Harry Reid opposed. Now Senate Democrats are going to use a similar argument to fight against the filibuster and Republicans need to stop them. The correct and conservative position is to be for the filibuster.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            About the hypocrisy of Reid, the Democrats as a whole and the media we are in complete agreement.

            I’m not arguing in favor of the Dems current idea, I’m simply continuing to promote an idea that I’ve pushed here for probably four years. I like “my” idea not theirs :-) and I would happily rail against them getting away with this right now.

      • Mike Ferguson
  • gillis7

    Then were the secession of states constitutional as they rescinded their “permanent membership” in the United States ?
    Under the doctrine stated in this article…secession of states from the union is completely constitutional.

    • JX12

      …if a president is willing to go to war to prevent you from doing it, and – after roughly 600,000 dead – he wins that war, then he effectively gets to decide what is or isn’t “constitutional” about secession. There’s your precedent, like it or not.

  • K.

    Regardless of some nonsense in the American Prospect, the main proposals being discussed by Udall and Merkley do not involve killing the filibuster.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/Senate%20Procedures%20Reform%20Memo.pdf

    Some of these proposals seem a little abstruse. However, what is eminently reasonable is requiring continuous debate in order to continue a filibuster. That is not a trampling of American traditions. Far from it. It’s a return to what was true before the changes Democrats made to the rules in the 70s. I wonder if those changes were made with a simple majority?

    We should return to the Senate rules of past years.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/10/opinion/10martin.html?_r=1

    • K.

      It appears from this source that the Democrats did actually use a simple majority to push through their changes in the 70s. So using one to undo those changes does not seem radical.

      http://www.iowachristian.com/images/JudicialFilibusters.pdf

      • Brian Darling

        From your hyperlink it shows that Byrd pushed through some changes in precedent by using a simple majority vote. This is not evidence that the Senate’s Rules can be changed by a simple majority vote:
        “As majority leader, Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV) initiated four precedents that allowed a simple majority to change Senate procedures without altering the standing rules, thereby undermining minority rights to filibuster and use related tactics (Sen. Robert Byrd, Congressional Record, 1977, pp. S31916-27; Sen. Robert Byrd, Congressional Record, 1980, pp. S4729-32; Sen. Robert Byrd, Congressional Record, 1979, pp. S31892-94; Sen. Robert Byrd, Congressional Record, 1987, pp. S12252-60)
        As you can see above, the rules were not changed. The Ds want to change Rule 22 by using a simple majority vote. The Byrd example is not on point for what the Ds want to do today.

        • JSobieski

          http://rules.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=RuleXXII

          “Is it the sense of the Senate that the debate shall be brought to a close?” And if that question shall be decided in the affirmative by three-fifths of the Senators duly chosen and sworn — except on a measure or motion to amend the Senate rules, in which case the necessary affirmative vote shall be two-thirds of the Senators present and voting — then said measure, motion, or other matter pending before the Senate, or the unfinished business, shall be the unfinished business to the exclusion of all other business until disposed of.

        • K.

          It is hard to understand exactly what they did back in the 70s.

          http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/45448.pdf#page=8

          The section “Opening Day Scenario Two ? Majority Cloture” seems to show the gory details.

    • IJB

      Another idea of theirs is that you should need 40 to maintain a Filibuster, not 60 to break one – I actually agree with that rule change, as it puts the onus on the minority to keep the effort going (as it should).

      I also agree that the silent Filibuster needs to go, and dual-tracking (something Reid has abused, esp. in the ‘lame duck’) also needs to go.

      However, I’m against anything beyond these changes. I absolutely do not want individual ‘holds’ done away with, for example.

      • Brian Darling

        May seem resonable on it’s face, but the time period used to shut down debate would be constricted as part of this change. This seems to be a solution in search of a problem. In most instances, 41 Senators are present to maintain a filibuster.

      • froster

        It’s doing away with secret holds.

        If legislation is that bad, why should we not know who’s holding it? You really look like a wimp if you don’t want somebody to know why you are opposing it – are you opposing it for personal gain? for no reason at all? Or are you telling us why you think the bill is so bad?

        • JSobieski

          The idea of the one person fillibuster is simply bunk–if it was true, we wouldn’t have Obamacare.

          I agree with you though that “secret” legislative action is bad—legislators need to be held accountable

          • froster

            as I understand it can be overruled by 3/5 of the Senate (Motion to invoke cloture on the motion at hand).

          • carolina

            If they can’t get the 3/5 vote to overrule the filibuster….. then the one can keep filibustering. Yes, as suggested above – filibustering the proposed rule change may be the best way to stop it.

            I would also expect that a good number of the 21 dem senators up in 2012 will NOT want this kind of vote on their record.

  • romeg

    “Progressives” would resort to skulduggery to effect a rules change?; That they would LIE about something to create an impression that they actually have the authority to do whatever it is they wish to do?; That they would do this here in America? and so soon after Christmas?

    Next I suppose you’ll be telling us that there actually is neither a Santa Claus nor a Tooth Fairy.

    • AceInTX

      Next I suppose you will try to convince me there is no Easter Bunny and that there is no sand man that puts sand in your eyes to make you sleep at night!

      Your a bad man…your a very bad man!!!

  • m_quick

    We’ll have the House to check whatever legislation comes out of there for the next years at least. I don’t see us winning more than the 13 seats needed to gain a supermajority in 2012 to undo Obamacare or do the things we want, like privatize social security or possibly get a flat or fair tax through. So in 2012 we could have the House, the Presidency, and a Senate without having to have supermajorities to get through our agenda.

    What am I missing? Didn’t we want this when we had simple majorities and the Dems were filibustering us?

    • davesinsanantonio

      to okay judicial nominees and to ratify treaties. The House is not involved in either of these cases. With a simple majority the Dems could approve the most radical, America hating nutcases for federal judges at all levels, not just the Supreme Court. Those judges are appointed for life, and are next to impossible to get rid of. In addition, Obummer could sign a treaty giving the UN or some other body the right to dictate our laws and overturn our judicial decisions. That is one of the goals of the Left to make us a part of a one world government. So, that is why we cannot let them do it, if we have any means to stop it.

      • m_quick

        That’s in the constitution, they can’t change that w/o an amendment.

        So the only immediate downside would be judicial nominations. With an election coming up, I highly doubt any controversial judges are going to get through. I’m sure we can pick off some Dems like Manchin and McCaskill to defeat anyone radical.

        But getting the 60 votes to repeal Obamacare in 2013 is going to be tough. I would rather sacrifice judicial nominations now to get rid of that in a couple of years.

        Of course the long term downside is that it will be easier to pass legislation in the Senate, which is never good.

        I could see upsides and downsides to whatever happens.

  • carbon

    Put an end to the filibuster. It has always struck me as wrong and misleading, and I hoped when Republicans were in power that they would do away with it.

    In my mind the filibuster is like setting your clock ahead by a few minutes. Just because your clock is set ahead 10 minutes doesn’t change the actual time. The filibuster has caused us all to be programmed to think that just because we have 40 + 1 R’s that we are safe from the left’s bad legislation. But did that help us in the 111th congress? No. Did it help us in the 110th Congress? No. You can argue that it helped kill cap and trade, but the EPA is moving forward with that regardless, and if they had passed it more Senate Dems would have lost their seats last Nov.

    If right-leaning Americans were programmed to think of the Senate as a body that acts like the House, requiring only a simple majority to pass legislation, perhaps more attention would have been paid to the close Senate races that we lost. Instead, we are still in the minority but we seem to think that is a good thing because of the filibuster. The filibuster helps neither party, except in the rare case of Mr. Smith who defeated the Public Works bill in 1939.

    • Brian Darling

      Card check, the public option for ObamaCare, Greg Becker’s nomination to the NLRB, an Omnibus Spending bill with $8 billion in earmarks, Don Berwick to CMS, Climate Change Legislation and a host of other things would have passed quickly. Would you be ok with that?

      • carbon

        Thanks for replying, Brian. I understand, and this is a stretch, but I think some of those issues may not have passed regardless of whether the filibuster were in place, because of the heated public sentiment surrounding those issues.

        I think both parties sometimes use the filibuster as an excuse to not pass hot-button issues like those you mentioned. The filibuster is a modern creation and I think side-steps the constitutional intent of a legislative chamber that passes laws in a, dare I say, democratic way, as opposed to a bizarre 3/5 filibuster requirement. The constitution spells out when there must be a 2/3 vote.

        My greater point is let’s get out of the filibuster mentality and strive to elect a majority of conservatives to the Senate.

        • davesinsanantonio

          them and you will see that all of your “may”s and “I think”s and “perhaps”s are just too ephemeral to stand on. The voters are not all logic based clear thinkers. Some vote a straight party line, some vote for an incumbent just because they recognize the name, some vote to tear down this country, etc. We have to do what will protect the real long term vital interests of this nation. We cannot let pie-in-the-sky theories get in the way of down-to-earth protections of the Constitution and the protections it affords for our liberties. We must understand that there are evil people out there who wish to do evil things. We must stand in their way, not figure we can clean up after them later.

          • carbon

            My theory is no more iron-clad than yours is. We can only speculate as to the impact no filibuster would have on our government. Here are just a few of my points:

            **The filibuster is only a friend to the Constitution when we are in the minority.
            **It harms the Constitution when we are in the majority.
            **Getting rid of the filibuster as a procedural tool will not violate the Constitution.
            **The filibuster is a procedural gimmick that ensures ideologically-pure conservative or liberal legislation will always be defeated and that the legislative outcome will always trend liberal as a result of the compromise needed to pass the bill. (Assuming a conservative bill, watered down, is no longer conservative, and a liberal bill, watered down, is still liberal.)

        • adair

          How heated was public sentiment against Obamacare?

          Now there are fewer Dem Senators, but those who remain are the hardest of hard core Progressive/Lefty/Socialists.

          Are they going to listen to the same constituents who bombarded them against legislation that they really, really wanted to pass when they have all these pro-union and pro-”environment” and pro-illegals goodies that would then be passable?

          Meanwhile, through executive orders and rule-making, Obama will have more and more Obamacare plums put in force, not waiting for the money to pay for them to be collected … since it’s obvious he doesn’t care about any deficit. That was just get-it-enacted blather.

          Heated public sentiment is effective in turning some Republican Senators against earmarks, for example; but did any of the Dems repent, relent and agree? Please don’t enable these guys to burden us for the next 2 years with even more outrageous crapola.

    • froster

      as Brian said below, think of what we would have gotten in HCR without the filibuster.

  • williamjameson

    “The Nation” what a name for a far left liar haven of distorted facts, even their TV ads admit “Bias” Bias is leaving out relevant information so “liberal bias” is less reliable but this woman doesn’t care about the constitution.

    Its all about power and lack of consensus in voting. Dems want to bum rush bills through without debate so they can snob their noses at the people far faster than before. But will they like the 50 vote rule when they are the minority?

    Stephen Cohen is Katina’s husband, he’s a well known communist at Columbia University. They lived in Russia and decided to come home try to push people around. That is who Katrina is……….a communist posing as a liberal. She and many others are at fault for pushing aside the Blue Dogs and moderate dems in favor of moving the party further left which is also Nasty Pelosi’s plan because they all conspire together. You can watch the media movements in sync with such rabid ideas.

    Pay attention to job titles by Da Nation employees, all are called Editors, not Journalists. Editors edit aka opinion and a lack of integrity for journalistic facts. She just got debunked with this article on filibuster. I’m sure Fecal Media Matters will defend her with lies to protect the communists. The October 2nd rally showed the nation just how many communists and socialists are out there.

    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/7/175055.shtml
    Here’s the reason liberal has become a dirty word. Because Communists, fellow-travelers, pro-terrorists and terrorist sympathizers have hijacked the word liberal and because organs like the New York Times have abetted them, using “liberal” to describe anti-American radicals and even totalitarian radicals like Noam Chomsky, Ward Churchill, Michael Moore, the organizers of the anti-Iraq and pro-Saddam “peace” movement, and Katrina vanden Heuvel and The Nation.

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      She pretty much speaks for the Washington DC Democrats. They all march in lockstep and they have no problem wielding power. That makes her more like a canary in the coal mine.

      And, interestingly enough, about the only place on earth you can find actual Communists anymore is on college campuses, employed as instructors.

      • williamjameson

        She’s a joke, that’s the problem, people actually believe her garbage. People like this have infested the media while real journalists from Forbes, Money, Inc, etc…. have been cast aside. She’s a despot out to take power that’s for sure.

        There were over 250,000 socialists and communists. Its more than college campuses which I agree with. The dems have been hijacked over time with the liberal MSM covering their tracks. Even Chris Matthews has admitted to following the father Karl Marx. Slowly these people are lowering their masks while the party falls prey.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          …people actually believe her garbage.

          She, and her fellow travelers need to be taken very seriously, not treated as a joke. I have no problem ridiculing them, but they need to be treated like people with influence, because they have it, like it or not (and I don’t).

  • K.

    I hope everyone won’t think me a turncoat for signing this petition! I would not sign the vast majority of petitions offered by the below site, but this shouldn’t be a very partisan issue.

    h ttp://campaigns.dailykos.com/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=17

    • Martin Knight
    • Bill S

      Time to send this one packing, Neil.

    • Brian Darling

      You are a liberal posing as a conservative on a conservative web site. That makes you dishonest.

      • Scope

        and the Paulites on many issues. For K, when given the open choice for the next president, this one favors Gary Johnson, a Ron Paul endorsed fellow traveler. On some issues, there isn’t even a shred of difference.

    • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

      Nice try.

    • williamjameson

      Did you even read the SCOTUS rulings. You just voted against lawful rulings that justify the filibuster.

      I think your too lazy to read because your older responses show you’ve advocating filibuster changes for months. Clearly you should of educated yourself before following the Kroc of Liberal Shiz buffoons at the KOS.

  • Martin Knight

    I distinctly remember the editorial boards of the WaPo, the NYT, etc. shrieking that getting rid of the filibuster (note: the GOP proposal was to get rid of the filibuster strictly for judicial and executive branch nominations and leave it intact for legislation) would result in the destruction of the republic.

    Now? Crickets.

    Worse, I remember a chorus of idiots assuring us unsophisticated rubes that McCain’s foolish “Gang of 14″ deal meant that Democrats could be counted to refrain when they had the opportunity.

    Where are they now?

    • Brian Darling

      Is one of the forums the lefties are using to promote the idea that they can toss aside the filibuster. Ezra Klein has been on a one man educational crusade, using the Washington Post as a forum, to push for liberals to get rid of the filibuster. Now the Post is hosting vanden Heuvel and others in the week preceding a Senate vote on the issue. The Post has a few conservative voices, but have loaded up the blog with liberals (and a guest post from vanden Heuvel who is a left wing nut). The Washington Post is not very balanced these days.

    • ohiohistorian

      We got rid of Mike DeWine here in Ohio in 2006 (replacing him with the mental midget Sherrod Brown, unfortunately). The almost as mighty mental midget Sheldon Whitehouse replaced Lincoln Chaffee. Here are the Republican names: Chafee, Collins, DeWine, Graham, McCain, Snowe, and Warner. Three of them are gone. One (McCain) lied his way back to the Senate as a “conservative”. Graham, Collins, and Snowe have voted with the majority Democrats on the nomination of Kagan and Sotomayor. There is NO gang; it fell apart when Obama became President.

  • NeoKong

    Two years is shorter than they think.
    It’s not like the last Republican Senate came anywhere near blocking a judicial nominee. As I recall they all sailed right through with more than enough votes.
    Wasn’t Sotomayor confirmed with 68 votes and Kagan with 63….?

  • harlan

    All throughout this thread I see people saying that the dems will rue the day…they’ll regret it…it will come back to bite them on the you-know-what.

    Horsehockey.

    When it no longer suits them, THEY’LL CHANGE IT BACK!
    It’s how they operate. It’s what they do.

    And the republicans will roll over. It’s what THEY do.

    • IJB
      • Common_Cents

        Then they’d scream if the Reps did something similar and the lame stream media would shout it for all the world to hear, ignoring that the Dems did the exact same thing the session before.

  • melbedewy

    If we believe what you say then 60 Senators can change cloture to a unanimous vote and that new rule could never be changed without unanimous consent.
    My guess is the courts won’t and shouldn’t interfere with a rules change by majority vote.
    BUT-I can’t see the more centrist Democrats going along with this as it will neuter them. This is just red meat to divert the Dail Kooks base from the Obama Tax Cuts For The Rich and possibly a deficit compromise based on the dreaded “Catfood Commision”.

    • earlgrey

      Of courese i am exagerrating, but it will only increase the power of the Far Left over Red State Dems and IMO have a devastating effect on the democrat party in red states. I get a lot of flack for my stupid theories so take my thougths with a teaspoon of salt.

      • audax

        …especially after looking at the latest “red” maps!

  • libertyatstake

    Here’s hoping Warner, Webb, and the rest of the phony moderate Donkeys are paying attention. Snowe, Collins, and the rest of the RINOs for that matter.

    http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
    “Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive”

  • america1st

    Americans did NOT want our health care turned into a bureaucratic nightmare and made this as clear as could be – we were ignored. We begged for jobs and received TARP, tax & chain energy policies, then trillions in pork which benefitted virtually no one except the parasites while jobs continued to tank and millions lost their homes. So much for our efforts “to petition for redress of grievances.”

    We repudiated this surreal socialist nonsense at the polls only to see sour grapes lame ducks jam more of the same foulness through a circumvented legislative process – and now this. So much for “the will of the people.”

    If the soap box and the ballot box don’t work, we still have one last resort . . . and while I would be very sorry to see this happen, it begins to seem inevitable. Dingy hairball reid would do well to reflect on this historical date ere he find himself reprising the role of Major Pitcairn in its repetition.

  • runner12

    worth. I do not pretend to understand all of the Senate and parlimentary rules. I am not a lawyer and “law speak” makes my head spin. But let us look at the people pushing to get rid of the filibuster. Can anyone say “socialists/progressives”? All they have done the past two years is subvert the Constitution and make shameless power grabs. Are we supposed to believe that all of the sudden they have grown a conscience and now are die-hard Constitutionlists? Only if you are a simpleton. I completely oppose getting rid of the filibuster. It is one of the most important checks and balances our forefathers put in place. We must fight this with all we have.

    • Brian Darling

      You are spot on. Great comment!
      Since when did Katrina vanden Heuvel care about the Constitution? It was when the left made up a Supreme Court case to claim that the filibuster is unconstitutional.

      • earlgrey

        THey have the majortiy. What is it we have to fight with. Why did the R’s capitulate to them so much so they could get slapped down like this?

        For all I know my worthless R Senators would vote for this too. (Corker, Alexander)

        • Jim Tomasik

          I don’t think so.

        • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

          Some here have said we need a “10 million man march” in DC. Preferably all conservatives.

          Why not, instead, have those same 10 million Americans assemble locally this coming month at their respective local Republican Party committee meetings. (Hell, I’d settle for a million, or even a couple of hundred thousand, as there are about 200,000 vacant precinct committeemen slots in the Republican Party nationwide.) Asking questions about how to become a precinct committeeman (or whatever it happens to be called in a particular state — every state has its own terminology).

          Remember the town hall meeting videos? Shoot short digital videos of the turnouts. Of individual conservatives introducing themselves to the local committee chairman and asking, “As a registered Republican, how do I become a voting member of the Republican Party so I’m allowed to vote for the Party leadership and get involved in Get Out The Vote efforts in my precinct?” Have each conservative send a fax to their two senators and representative (and their state legislature representatives, too) letting them know that they’re becoming a Republican Party precinct committeeman for the sole purpose of defeating any incumbent, Republican or Democrat, who doesn’t fight to preserve their individual liberties and to make government smaller and less intrusive. By helping to Get Out The Vote for better candidates in the 2012 election cycle, both in the primary and general elections.

          I spent part of my evening tonight with a core group of conservative elected precinct committeemen, most of whom were brand new, and three of whom are newly elected officers in our local Republican committee. Most, too, were brand new elected state committeemen, who are empowered to attend the Arizona Republican Party annual meeting to cast votes for our state leader candidates on Jan. 22. We were meeting to figure out how we are going to recruit more conservative PCs in the coming year and how to make sure, both for the county and state leadership elections next month, we get every conservative precinct committeeman and state committeeman to the county and state election meetings, respectively, or, in necessary, have their proxies properly carried to and voted at the meetings. Because there’s an ideological war going on inside the Arizona Republican Party, and the side that has the most bodies is going to win the leadership elections. That means either conservatives will be elected to the leadership positions or moderates will be.

          And that matters. Greatly.

          Duplicate that kind of effort all across the country and, trust me, the incumbents will take notice. But we’ve got to do it now, and we’ve got to do it with much greater numbers. That’s why I’m trying to get every conservative I can reach to become involved in the Party as a PC and to turn themselves into “PC recruiting machines.”

          It’s not hard. It only takes a little time. If I can do it, anyone can.

          Thank you.

          ColdWarrior

  • http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu Rhymes With Right

    And then ram everything right up their @$$E$ after the 2012 election.

    • davesinsanantonio

      they can do more damage in two years than we can fix in twenty! But, if we lose on this, then we can ” ram everything right up their @$$E$ after the 2012 election.” But, we cannot just lie down and let them walk all over us for the next two years, or we may not win in 2012. The voters will not back us if they think we have no principles, nor a spine to fight for them!
      The more we fight, and are seen in and by the media to fight, the more attention we will get. And, the idiot media pundits will say the most ridiculous things to attack us or support the evils of the Left, and, just maybe, the voters will “get it” by the time November of 2012 rolls around. But if we just “let ‘em do it”, the voters will abandon us as spineless wimps who stand for nothing. And rightfully so!!!

  • Michael Dugas

    It’s quite another to ignore the damage they can do in these last two years while our country perches on the brink of financial collapse. They could effectively push it over the brink, or at least give it a good try, in that time.
    They need to be vocally pointed out for the hypocrites, liars and anti-constitutionalists that they are. This needs to be stopped. We need our Senators to be able to influence legislation and have a say in what’s going on.
    This is NOT a precedent that we should allow to be set.

  • Michael Dugas

    It’s quite another to ignore the damage they can do in these last two years while our country perches on the brink of financial collapse. They could effectively push it over the brink, or at least give it a good try, in that time.
    They need to be vocally pointed out for the hypocrites, liars and anti-constitutionalists that they are. This needs to be stopped. We need our Senators to be able to influence legislation and have a say in what’s going on.
    This is NOT a precedent that we should allow to be set. It needs to be stopped!

  • Mike Ferguson

    I mean just think its more than just stopping things, its also takes away the ability to slow things down so that they can be read. I remember several occasions where Demint or others used filibusters or the threat of filibuster to slow down things so they could be looked at more closely or things could be changed. I don’t have a problem with a single Senator being able to hold up an entire bill. That is the whole point behind the senate, thats why there are only 100 of them, thats why they are different than the house. If this gets through they are pretty much just a 100 person house of reps. What is the point other than to advance an unpopular agenda.

    • SoFiMil

      As has been pointed out previously, regardless, the Republicans have a majority in the House, so it’s not as critical to use to emergency brake procedure of the filibuster when Reid doesn’t allow amendments and tries to ram things down our throats.

      • cwilson

        Huh?

      • Mike Ferguson

        The filibuster is one of the things that sets the two houses apart. Also, what you are talking about involves alot of trust for the House of Rep’s doing the right thing every single time, that is a trust I just can’t see justifying.

        Also, it doesn’t matter what the house can and can’t do, they are two seperate bodies with 2 very different sets of rules, and for a very good reason.

        Also, in my opinion, these people are evil and evil must be opposed at every turn, period. If we let evil just do as they please and say “its ok well fix it later”, haven’t we already lost?

  • http://libertyYes.cooperusa.net libertyyes

    Just read the Senate Rules. There is no 51 vote option. Rule 5 continues the Rules to the next Senate, and allows them to be changed by a super-majority.

    Otherwise, why would ANY Senate bother with minority rights, if them could simply, on day 1 say that they have supreme power and and forget the minority?

    But the thinking is consistent with the thinking of Progssives, who have over the years weakened the power of States to halt Federal expansion (17th amendment) and pushed for the cloture rules under Wilson.

    Let us not destroy our democracy.

  • http://libertyYes.cooperusa.net libertyyes

    The filibuster has been used more in this Congress because of the extreme lurch to the left that the Obama, Reid, Pelosi troika put forth. Thank God the process worked and our Constitution provide a check and balance to what most Americans did not want in the first place.

    Our very DEMOCRACY lies in the balance.

    • cwilson

      called “filling the tree” to prevent the R’s from being able to offer ANY amendments at all. Fer instance, suppose the Rules committee says only five amendments on bill X will be allowed. Reid will insert the five amendments like the following into “the tree”:

      1) In paragraph 5, correct the spelling of “osean” to “ocean”.

      Oops, so sorry guys, there is no more room in the tree for your (substantive) amendments.

      After taking away any and all OTHER tools the minority has to affect legislation nobody should be surprised that the one remaining tool saw a lot more use.

    • ohiohistorian

      If you go back and look at pre-2006, there were few filibusters because the Democrats THREATENED a filibuster and the Republicans caved. A perfect example is Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac reform, where the Republicans abandoned it IN COMMITTEE because the Democrats threatened a filibuster.

      That did not work in reverse, so the Republicans had to actually filibuster. Hence the filibusters APPEAR to have gone up markedly, but it is not really so.

      As far as the Congress lurching to the left, that is true. But, if you remember the Republicans in Congress were pretty sanguine about that, because it was the people’s will. Only after it was demonstrated that the people did NOT back the SoComm agenda of the three were Republicans willing to fight, and then only in limited engagements.

    • 1689

      Mild but important correction: Our very REPUBLIC lies in the balance. The fillibuster is an essential component of having a republic, a government of limited powers, with checks on each branch of government, with a mere democratic majority unable to ride roughshod over minority rights. If Reid eliminates the fillibuster, it’ll still be a democracy, which the Founders thought was a worthless form of government, citing the Greek city states that voted to confiscate the property of its citizens.

      • ohiohistorian

        that are also voting to confiscate the income of its citizens during life and wealth after death while giving others 2 years of unemployment and the useless fuel ethanol as a farm sop. Again demonstrating that democracy is worthless, but being a republic cannot protect fully against the “bread and circus” mentality of the masses.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    go along with “kill the filibuster” they know that their party will not always be in charge.

    • cwilson

      signed a letter urging Reid to do this. EVERY LAST ONE.

      • JSobieski

        in the lame duck session to not vote on anything before extending the Bush income tax rates.

        Signed letters are like campaign promises—frequently broken.

        • ohiohistorian

          then there are the liberals from Maine, the liberal “conservative” from MA, the senile old fool from Ohio, the stupid again-conservative from AZ, and the stupid from SC. Does that pretty much sum up the Republicans in the Senate? This is what it is going to look like this year. The Republicans may have 47 seats, but they really only have 40 or less people willing to tell Harry Reid to go pound sand.

          Harry will hold the Dems to their letter; they will have competitors and no money to run against them if they don’t toe the line. Harry is from the old Democrat school called the “Godfather” school.

          • JSobieski

            The clear wording in the rules (sections V and XXII) makes a straight up vote impossible to succeed.

            So they have to go the parliamentarian route, which would involve getting the parliamentarian to say that fillibusters are unconstitutional—a dubious proposition that is so contradictory of what the dems have done and said over the years.

            Unconstitutional fillibusters in the case of judicial nominees was a legitimate argument. Declaring all fillibusters unconstitutional is bald faced gamesmanship that will make Senators from Nebraska and Missouri think twice before actually going that way.

            Smart money says they won’t even try. This is kind of like the reconcilation threat for passing Obamacare. In the end, the House passed what the Senate passed.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            It makes no sense to say that moderate Republicans (e.g. Snowe, Collins, Brown) would be in favor of removing the filibuster. These are the ones that will fight the most. It’s always those few in the middle that seem to hold the strongest hand on major legislation. If the filibuster were gone, these people would almost always be meaningless votes, unless the Senate were very close to 50-50.

      • JSobieski

        http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/25/us/politics/25rules.html

        “Mr. Udall and others say they do not intend to try to overturn the Senate?s fundamental requirement that it takes 60 votes to cut off debate and force a final vote on a disputed bill or nomination.

        But they say they want to force senators to be on the floor actually speaking if they are blocking a measure, much like Jimmy Stewart did in the movie ?Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.? By contrast, the modern version of the filibuster allows seemingly endless breaks in floor activity, with rows of empty desks as a backdrop.”

        Seems to me that this is more tinkering with the fillibuster than getting rid of it.

    • ohiohistorian

      to change the filibuster down from 67 to 60. However, it got changed because the Democrats needed to get rid of the threat of Republican filibuster to their social programs.

      I really wish that the planet (on which you live, the one that has Democrats who don’t think they will be there in perpetuity) were the same one on which I live.

  • adair

    interesting comments on any topic, anywhere, with the fewest trolls and with 4 or 5 posters who seem to know a lot about whereof they speak. Thanks!!

  • lizaz

    however they can, whether it’s constitutional or not. We have more work to do to change the majority in the Senate in 2012. There are 21 Dem senators up for reelection and and three real RINOs being Lugar(IN), Snowe (ME) and Scott Brown (MA). Brown occasionally votes with the Dems, so we have to watch him. You can get a list of the senators in Wikipedia. Don’t know yet how many of those up will actually run again. Watch how these Dems and rinos vote in the next 2 yrs.

  • http://www.mosov.org MoSov

    ..let ‘em do this. Everything can be stopped in the House, and in 2012 conservatives will have control of the Senate and NO filibuster available to the Marxists.

    How can that be bad?

  • hrreed

    Hello America,

    If progressive senators are Hell bent on destroying themselves and their party from ever seeing power in most Americans lifetime, let them pull this underhanded piece of treachery. That will add another 22 seats to the GOP, followed by most of what is left of the ideology of treachery in 2014. Keep digging you ‘useful idiots’. Way to go ‘Dingey’ Harry. You are the shovel that is going to bury the libs deep and permanent.

    The Turban Torpedo

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