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No Truces, No Trucers

Or mute buttons

The word truce is defined as “a suspension of hostilities for a specified period of time by mutual agreement of the warring parties; cease-fire; armistice.”  In recent months, Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels has turned this word “truce” into a rallying cry for libertarians and a curse word for social conservatives by calling for the next president to forge a “truce” with social conservatives on the pursuit of social issues.

And then, he says, the next president, whoever he is, “would have to call a truce on the so-called social issues. We’re going to just have to agree to get along for a little while,” until the economic issues are resolved.

But you see, there were no “hostilities” to begin with.  The social conservatives were minding their own business, and Daniels sucker-punched them.  And that was just the start.

In November a group of “gay conservatives,” GOProud, and a mish-mash of other libertarian-leaning “Tea Party activists” joined in the fun with their own letter, asking Republicans to “resist the urge to run down any social issue rabbit holes in order to appease the special interests.”

And on Wednesday, Daniels, apparently not sufficiently stung by the storm of criticism that followed his original “truce talk,” decided to double down on his previous gaffe by stating:

“I would like to think that fixing [the debt] and saving our kids’ future could be a unifying moment for our country and we wouldn’t stop our disagreements or our passionate belief in these other questions, we just sort of mute them for a little while, while we try to come together on the thing that menaces us all”

Truce? “Rabbit holes?” “Mute button?” Ladies and gentlemen, if there weren’t hostilities before, there certainly are now.

Social conservatives have been relatively mute during the last several general elections. In 2006, few candidates ran with social conservative issues as a primary concern. In 2008, John McCain did not focus on social issues such as abortion, gay marriage, pornography, etc., yet was supported by social conservatives.  In 2010, the GOP was wildly successful, in large part due to outrage stemming from the overwhelmingly leftist policies pressed by the Obama administration…and some of those outrageous policies strike the heart of the social conservative agenda – federal funding of abortion, repeal of DADT, etc. In the 2010 election, social conservatives were once again a very reliable voting bloc for the GOP, strongly supporting conservative candidates across the nation.

Yet Daniels and co. think they should be (even more) “muted”.

Looking back at the 2006 and 2008 elections….culturally left-leaning “centrists” repeatedly called for the silencing of social conservatives. Fortunately, cooler, saner heads, such as Ramesh Ponnuru, countered the calls of the Frum and Parker types. Ramesh, in particular, pointed out how the anti-socon crowd makes calls for “truces” and “mute buttons” without evidence that there is even a problem:

People who disagree with social conservatives should, of course, feel free to make their arguments on the issues. But the argument that socially conservative positions are a drag on Republican tickets is dubious, as is the fact-free fervor of those who insist on it. Check that Kathleen Parker quote above: The Evangelicals are “what ails the party.” The implication is not just that they are a bigger problem for Republicans than, say, the voters’ preference for Democrats on health care. It is that the latter issue is insignificant.

David Frum, similarly, has recently written that a “painful change” on abortion and a “less overtly religious” message is “the only hope for a Republican recovery.” This kind of sweeping language ought to be backed up by more evidence than the critics of the social Right have yet produced.

Ponnuru wrote this in 2008. Things haven’t changed. The current crowd of trucers continues to make such claims without any backing, and in the process antagonize and anger the very members of the GOP that have carried the party for years.  Case in point:  religious conservatives were again one of the strongest blocs of voters in the 2010 election.  Pew reports:

Similarly, voters who attend religious services regularly continued to support Republicans at much higher rates in 2010 than voters who attend worship services less often. Nearly six-in-ten of those who attend religious services at least weekly voted for the Republican House candidate in their district (58%), compared with 44% Republican support among those who attend religious services less often. Though changes in the exit poll question about religious attendance make direct comparisons with previous years impossible, previous analysis shows that frequency of worship attendance has been a remarkably strong and consistent predictor of the vote.

Contrary to the claims of the “Tea Party” adherents, those who support the tea party groups are largely social conservative as well:

- Nearly half (47%) also say they are part of the religious right or conservative Christian movement. Among the more than 8-in-10 (81%) who identify as Christian within the Tea Party movement, 57% also consider themselves part of the Christian conservative movement.

- They make up just 11% of the adult population—half the size of the conservative Christian movement (22%).

- They are mostly social conservatives, not libertarians on social issues. Nearly two-thirds (63%) say abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, and less than 1-in-5 (18%) support allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry.

- They are largely Republican partisans. More than three-quarters say they identify with (48%) or lean towards (28%) the Republican Party. More than 8-in-10 (83%) say they are voting for or leaning towards Republican candidates in their districts, and nearly three-quarters (74%) of this group report usually supporting Republican candidates.

Doesn’t really sound like a group that needs to be “muted” to me.

The response to Daniels and the trucers has been harsh.  American Spectator’s W. James Antle called itcontemplation of unconditional surrender“.   Family Research Council president Tony Perkins statedThank goodness the Founding Fathers were not timid in their leadership; they understood that “truce” was nothing more than surrender.” Indiana Congressman Mike Pence responded “I believe with all my heart that Republicans need to continue to fight for the sanctity of life and the sanctity of marriage with everything we’ve got in 2010 and in 2012.”  And our own Erick Erickson said that Daniels and his remarks “are best ignored while reaffirming conservative principles“.

Few would claim that Gov. Daniels is a social liberal.  In fact, he has a good track record on social issues.  But there is no reason for him to stifle one of his strongest natural constituencies on these points.  There is no evidence that social conservative issues are negatively impacting the GOP.   While the “youth vote” is generally liberal on social issues, other key constituencies that the GOP must reach, such as the Hispanic and African-American vote, are fairly conservative on issues such as gay marriage and abortion.  If the GOP were to retreat/go silent on social conservative policies, the loss of social conservative voters (not to the Democrats, but by sitting out elections as many did in 2000) would not be overcome by an assumed attraction to other constituencies.  In the case of the GOProud/Tea Party letter, a number of the signatories of that document could be considered libertarian and/or socially liberal, and their motives are a bit less difficult to understand.

Several groups and individuals are voicing their disgust with Daniels and the trucers by taking a pass on this year’s Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC).  While some sources are describing this as a “boycott,” there is no organized effort to convince social conservatives to skip CPAC.  This is simply a case where some have decided that the conference is not representing their interests because of CPAC’s support of Mitch and the Trucers.  The appearance of Daniels at CPAC’s Reagan Dinner is particularly objectionable to the American Principles Project.  APP Executive Director Andy Blom said that “Governor Daniels’ selection is an affront to the millions of conservatives who believe that social issues such as abortion and traditional marriage are non-negotiable”  Others have also decided to skip CPAC because of the truce talk.  Boycott?  No.  A decision based on principles?  Yes.

The sad part is that all of this could have been avoided.  There is no reason for social conservatism to even be an issue.  Social conservatives did not initiate this debate.  Social conservatives have not put a hard press on their (our) issues.  Yet they have become the scapegoat for the ills of the GOP.  If Daniels and the trucers choose to continue their crusade to silence social conservatives, the result may not be exactly as they wish…socons will not be swayed by policy capitulation.

The Corner’s Yuval Levin has a great summary to all this:

When it comes to the social and cultural issues, conservatives understand ourselves to be in a defensive struggle, and people defending themselves against an aggressive opponent are not generally in a position to declare a truce. We can talk about priorities in what is without question a time of fiscal crisis, but why not be clear that we will also continue working to defend innocent life and sustain the moral and social foundations of our society? Daniels’s record on these issues suggests he considers them important, and is not in doubt about where he stands. It wouldn’t hurt to say so.

“It wouldn’t hurt to say so”.  So true.  But the fact remains that he/they never should have said anything in the first place.

COMMENTS

  • avgjo

    he should be focused on destroying unions in his state. I remember reading the post here on redstate that he has huge majorities in the state congress, and yet he’s reticent about dealing with the unions there. Spineless in social issues, spineless in this one. Amazing how the two go hand-in-hand.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    Oh, yes I understand his accomplishments, which are nice for his home state. Good for them. But he could never win a national election in this environment. And it is not due to his stand on social issues. It is due to his general lack of depth on the most important issues a president needs to handle nowadays.

    I won’t defend Daniels at all. But my guess is Mitch is poorly articulating his thoughts on a Republican Party ordered priority as opposed to the platform itself. If that is the case, he is partially right. Certainly, the most important issues of the day are not necessarily “social” issues, but economic and health care related.

    As a social conservative, I am willing to agree with my brethren that the list of priorities may not immediately address my social issues concerns. But issues such as the “sanctity of marriage”, abortion, etc. should be part of the platform and have some very well-developed plans for redress.

  • techsan

    I’m pretty sick and tired of other groups making a stink about an issue….an issue which social conservative are known not to support…and to which media lackeys rush out and interview to ask “Hey, do you disagree with ‘X’?…and then to which everyone acts all surprised and alarmed that there’s disagreement. Then it’s labeled bigotry and hatred when…in the end…all that was done is to answer a question calmly and with traditional/historical/Biblical reason.

    All of the sudden it’s my problem that group ‘X’ has a problem?!? To paraphrase, how does ‘their’ issue become my emergency?

    Enough!

    If Mr Daniels doesn’t get this scenario…which is Liberal Tactics 101….then maybe, like Forrest Gump, he’s “not that bright”.

  • Scope

    I’ve been saying much the same in many of my posts recently. Someone here replied to a comment about the strong number in favor of the pro-life issues, something to the effect- sorry, the Tea Parties have have already called a truce on social issues. I knew that to be true, but, it was a smack in the face to see someone acknowledging it in writing. Not all Tea Parties, and Tea Partiers are equal. I suspect that when many begin to understand that many Tea Party “leaders” have no interest in representing their social concerns, a new type of Tea Party will emerge that recognizes the full boat of Regan conservatism, with importance on all three planks. Mike Pence is a three plank conservative, and look at the momentum he had going. Indiana is very lucky to have him.

    Ron Paul’s Campaign for Liberty had threatened to “take over the Republican Party, and turn it into their libertarian vision” because they claimed “the Republicans are easy to take over because they don’t want to get their hands dirty.” There were many complaints because they tried to take over CPAC last year. This year will be far worse, as they have joined hands with many of the libertarian Tea Party leaders. I suspect by next year, the Values Voters Summit in October will be the place for those “real conservatives” to park their tent.

  • throwback59

    around in 1860: ” We’re just going to have to call a truce on the so-called slavery issue…”
    After all, no one has a right to tell a slave owner what to do with his own slaves. Right, Mitch?

  • redneck_hippie

    Was expecting something from you once I read the Brody file article. After reading that and listening to Laura’s interview with Daniels, I came to the conclusion yesterday that many, including Ace came to. I expected Daniels to conciliate or ameliorate. Through this interview that expectation died.

  • C.S. McCoy

    Daniels is not a libertarian. He is a somewhat moderate conservative whose main focus is fiscal issues (and his fiscal conservativism is debatable). Not being very focused on social issues, or having a liberal stance on them, doesn’t make someone a libertarian. Indeed, there are many libertarians who are strongly and fiercely pro-life, most notably the pauls.

    I would imagine most libertarians would scoff at the idea of daniels being inclued in their ranks. Does he support the Iraq war? Does he support nation-building in Afghanistan rather than a focus on al-Qaeda? Does he support the war on drugs? The patriot act? Is he a non-interventionist? Does he believe our current monetary policy distorts our economy? Most libertarians are united on these areas, but my guess is that daniel’s answers to these questions would turn most of them off.

  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    You hit the nail on the head, avgjo.

  • pastisprolog

    I think Joseph Farah has made a strong case that, since the foundation of conservative political thought is rooted in the Bible, which was used by our country’s founders as their justification for creating a government dedicated to preserving individual liberty, of which personal accountability to a just God is inseparable from liberty, that there are no such thing as economic conservatives or social conservatives. There are only conservatives.

    To strip out of conservative thinking, personal accountability to obey a just God in all we do, is to take the foundation out from under economic freedom. Without a foundation of every behavior based on God’s law, we are all pirates, out for only ourselves, who neither deserve nor can keep economic freedom.

    This idea isn’t new. It is part of our nation’s founding thought and was repeated with force by Benjamin F. Morris in his comprehensive work from the 1860′s, “The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of The United States,” in which he argues that America, her government and her people, had already drifted far from her founding virtues.

    As the men who invented America well knew, an unvirtuous people have never long remained free. If conservatives abandon this founding principle, we will be left without a defense strong enough to preserve the rest.

  • pastisprolog

    A Conservative who doesn’t build his conservatism on the foundation of God’s Law is no conservative.

  • IJB
  • Wayne

    Truce in any unconstitutional social program argument is actually a win for social issues. One either supports the Constitution on this subject or one doesn’t.

    I’m behind the Constitution 100%. No truce in that area at all.

    My two cents….

  • ciscoguy

    If the USA collapses under the weight of her debt, we’ll have new social issues on a scale we’ve never seen before. But, you can emphasize economic issues without being dismissive of your principles.

  • Kyle-MI

    It does not matter what any GOP presidential candidate offers if the Supreme Court declares it unconstitutional. It also doesn’t matter how much any candidate says they will back off social issues as long as they are committed to nominating judges who will respect the original meaning of the Constitution. There is more than enough support in the House and Senate if they know that the laws they pass will not be vetoed or struck down by the Supreme Court.

  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    I think one of the key strategies Republicans need to use in the future is a strong, articulate focus on the party platform. Too many people don’t even know what’s in the platform of either party.

    The formal platform of the Democrat party overlaps to a huge degree the platform of the Communist Party USA. That was pointed out here in the blogosphere during the campaign season of 2008 — but it never made it into the awareness of the general public. Can you imagine what a difference it would have made if it had?

    In contrast, the Republican Party platform embodies the principles that most Americans believe in. We have been fools not to openly campaign on our own platform. We should take advantage of the opportunity to educate our fellow citizens about what is in our party platform AND WHY. When these principles are explained and advocated, we win votes.

    Put our platform up against theirs, explain why theirs won’t work and ours will, and run on it.

  • LibertarianHawk

    We’ve got an existential fiscal crisis going on right now. We’re going to need all the help we can get to confront it.

    But I think it’s worth repeating what Michael Barone pointed out in a recent column. Talk of a “truce” is actually somewhat superfluous — we pretty much already have one in the form of the Tea Party, a movement that has coalesced around fiscal and economic concerns.

    He’s not talking about waving white flags. He’s saying that the nation has more urgent — not necessarily more important — priorities right now.

  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander
  • aesthete

    Neil and Martin would be surprised to hear this.

  • LibertarianHawk

    Although I can appreciate why so many social conservatives are wary of that. They’ve been burned at the altar so much by Republican politicians that they’ve almost come to expect it.

    And, at first blush, that’s what this sounds like.

    Daniels is not another George HW Bush (who gave us David Souter) or Rudy Giuliani or somebody like that. He has a fine record on abortion, even saying he would sign a preemptive ban similar to what other states have passed in the event Roe is overturned.

    His point is simply that we’ve got a fire to put out right now — it really shouldn’t be interpreted as anything else.

  • aesthete

    All the same, Mitch sure is looking for the worst way to express his thoughts on the matter.

  • LibertarianHawk

    I’m fine with him sticking by his guns on the comment — but only because I think I understand what he’s after. A lot of people don’t and are taking it as the signal of a charging RINO.

    After the 2006 election defeat, Arlen Specter said the party needed to moderate — and he was speaking largely to social issues. Many others have flatly encouraged the party to drop opposition to abortion from the platform.

    As if social conservatives don’t have enough enemies among Democrats, they feel just as wary of many Republicans — and with perfectly good reason.

    So, yeah, Daniels would be wise to clarify his remarks and ensure that conservatives realize that, while he might not exactly be Rick Santorum or Mike Huckabee, neither is he Christie Todd Whitman or Olympia Snowe.

    He should be trying to win friends here, not enemies.

  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    Neglect of social issues leads to economic meltdown.

    Study after study after study (if you need studies to back up your own common sense and observations) have shown that the NUMBER ONE factor that correlates with nearly every negative social pathology is having no father in the home. We’re talking high-school drop-out rates, drug addiction, juvenile delinquency, teenage pregnancy, gang membership, crime, incarceration rates, etc. ALL of these correlate strongly with fatherlessness.

    What happens when you have a lot of high-school drop outs, drug addicts, unwed mothers, gangs and criminals? Government spending to attempt to deal with these problems goes sky-high.

    As Congressman Tim Huelskamp says, “You just can’t spend enough to replace the family.”

    “Family values” and national fiscal integrity are absolutely interdependent. In other words, healthy families mean a healthy economy.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    If you look at the people he’s put into judgeships, his personal beliefs, and his actions, you will see that Daniels is a strong social conservative.

    He simply feels that our fiscal crisis is so great that it has to have all of our attention right now.

    Do I think this will hurt him in the primaries? Sure.

    I think we’re likely to end up with Pawlenty, Romney, or Palin at this point, but to say he’s trying to push social conservatives out of the picture is a bit strong.

  • hoosierteacher

    Using terms like “rabbit hole” and “mute button” are so thoughtless that it makes one think this guy means it. In other words, politicians are so careful with their word choices that when they use hostile references, they likely mean them.

    Mitch is my governor, and I love much of what he’s done for our state. To a libertatian he may be a hero, but I’m a conservative. Telling me to “mute” or that my ideas are a “rabbit hole” don’t get my support. Both he and Indiana house speaker Bosma are fighting to keep a right to work bill off the floor, so I don’t think that even his fiscal credentials are all that solid. (He was also OMB director under GW Bush, and didn’t do much to curb spending in that role).

    So while Mitch is a very good republican in some senses, he drops the ball in others. Liberals would love for conservatives to be liberal or at least silent on social issues. But the left doesn’t quit fighting on both fronts,so why should we? Republicans stand for responsible behavior fiscaly and socialy. When you drop one of those planks (as libertarians do) you conceed ground to the liberals.

    At this stage in the game Mitch is slowly losing the support he built up for so long in Indiana. Meanwhile, Pence is rocketing up the ladder of support in conservative circles. I’ll grant that Mitch has the executive branch experience, but I’ll also posit that if a race were held today for governor (or president), Indiana (and US) voters would take Pence. Liberals would take Daniels, if only because they’d win a “mute” button on social issues.

    Just my opinion.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    and would agree that Daniels’ statement doesnt come across the right way (either intentially or unintentially) but I’m still reserving judgement on who I will support and he could end up being the one.

  • LibertarianHawk

    …what has Daniels done (forget, for a moment, what he’s said) that would lead you to believe that he’s not simpatico with you on social issues?

    As I said elsewhere, I wouldn’t say that he’s another Mike Huckabee or Rick Santorum. But it’s wrong to mistake him for what we used to call Rockfeller or Javits Republicans.

    No, social conservatism isn’t his calling card. But when matters dealing with social issues have come up, I’d say he’s pretty much always come down on the side of conservatives.

    Right now, what’s going on in the state? The Assembly GOP is wanting to get through Right-to-Work legislation. That’s an economic issue. What’s he preferring to push? School choice — which is more of a social issue.

    I understand the trepidation with his comments. But there’s a reason he’s made them — and it’s a good reason: we’ve got a national fire to put out and I think he’s calculated that we’re going to need more than the traditional conservative voting bloc in on extinguishing it.

    This is reaching out to non-conservatives the right way, IMO. He’s not trying to move left on social issues. He’s just saying we should move them to the backburner for the time-being.

    Now, obviously, such an arrangement could only work until the first judicial nominee comes along. And I think he understands that. I take this is a political statement, not a governing one.

  • drivlikejehu

    I like Mitch Daniels well enough, but he isn’t cut out for a Presidential run. He keeps talking about a pointless, amorphous “truce” for no apparent reason, almost as if he wants to irritate conservatives for fun. If he wants to focus on fiscal issues… then why doesn’t he just focus on fiscal issues? Instead he spends time defending his bizarre “truce” idea. The whole situation calls his political instincts and judgment into question.

    Arguably even worse though was his response to a question on Egypt- that he’s just a “provincial governor.” There’s a historical parallel to George Romney’s hapless presidential run, where he refused to take a position on Vietnam. It’s nice that Daniels speaks plainly about the scope of our fiscal problems, but he lacks the moral courage to lead on other issues- whether it is America’s deficit in values or our broken foreign policy.

    Daniels probably won’t even run, but if he does, failure is the inevitable result of these failings.

  • LibertarianHawk

    …his record as governor in Indiana on matters like these.

    I suspect you’ll like most of what you find.

    I can appreciate people not liking the concept of a truce (though, like I said, I think it’s almost superfluous in the age of the fiscally-oriented Tea Party). But they should not mistake it for surrendering of values, moving left, or anything of the sort.

    We’ve seen so much of that from Republicans, that I can appreciate where the trepidation comes from. But we should keep it to what it is, not to what we fear it might become.

  • acat

    … that some can only see one path to conservatism, and that path leading through their own religious experiences.

    A very narrow view of conservatism results from that kind of thinking… and one that tends to view someone who is 80% of the time on the same page as an enemy. …

    Mew

  • Tbone

    who has no chance of being nominated. Why bother with the him? Discard him and move along.

    Not a fool, you say?

    Well try getting the Republican nomination by telling conservatives to stick-it.

    McCain? Well you have me there.

  • pastisprolog

    Atheists have the hardest time because they really have no justification for believing conservative principles, since their world-view doesn’t actually supoort them. Atheists conservatives have treated their morality as a given, without wondering where those principles came from, since those principles come from the Bible, a book they can’t believe. If they have any, atheists have a kind of legacy cultural Biblical morality. I know; I used to be a card-carrying atheist.

    Hindus can and do have conservative-seeming principles in some areas, but I’d point you to Ravi Zacharias for an exhaustive discussion of the differences between core Hindu and Biblical virtues. Suffice it say, a religion that teaches that worldly suffering is the fault of the afflicted, and that interfering with their Karma is bad for them, isn’t conservative. It is Christians in India that have charities to comfort the Untouchables, feed the hungry and treat the sick, not Hindus.

    As for Muslims, don’t confuse hospitality and good-will toward strangers with conservative morality. I deeply love Arabia in all its variety and tenacity, but I’m not romantic about it. At its core, Islam isn’t compatible with Biblical Judaism or Christianily. It doesn’t have to be, of course, and I don’t expect it to. Nor any other religion. It is not a conservative principle to believe it is appropriate to cheat a non-Muslim in a business deal, or that we should be lied to if it advances Islam, or that non-Muslims and women are always second-class citizens, and that murdering a non-Muslim isn’t murder, because no non-Muslim is innocent. Just because Muslim fathers don’t want their daughters sleeping around doesn’t make them conservative.

    The enemy of my enemy may sometimes be my friend. There are certan policy issues that they may share with conservatives, but that doesn’t make atheists or Muslims conservative.

    That was an excellent question. Thanks for asking. This forum is far too limited to give it the comprehensive answer you deserve. I hope I’ve answered some small part of it.

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    We must not forget that Andrew Breitbart and his Big Sites have been used to attack and silence social conservatives as well. Breitbart is a big promoter of GOProud and has allowed the group to use his websites to attack and smear social conservatives. In the past GOProud has attacked Jim Demint and Tony Perkins for their social positions. I have no problem with debate but GOProud continually presents itself as the victim when they are the clear aggressor.

  • lscoolidge

    Evangelacal athiests can not be Conservative becasue they refuse to acknowledge that our Human Rights come from God, not from man. If people don’t believe our rights come from God, then those rights will always be able to be taken away.

    Hindus could be Conservative, but thier religious beliefs do not value individual freedom or liberty – rather their religious beliefs divide people into Castes – and people can not ever climb out of those Castes – that is absolutly against one of the basic precepts of American Conservatism.

    Muslims – Fundimentalist Muslims also do not believe in individual freedom or liberty – they beleive that you must submit your will to whoever holds the political/religious power at that moment. If you disagree with anything the fundimentalists proclaim, they behead you, or stone you, or hang you. . .

    Now, to lump everybody into ‘groups’ is one of the oldest liberal tactics ever devised. Consequently, as a precept of Conservative thought – that every single person is an individual – people from all three ‘groups’ can be and are strong Conservatives. However, since you made the strawman argument about this or that group, this is my answer.

    American Conservatism is based on a Faith in God – be that whatever faith you might have (Jewish, Christian or Catholic, ‘reformed’ Islam, etc.). Like it or not, our Founding Fathers were all men strong in Faith in God – perhaps they refered to thier beliefs in God in different terms and used different words than we do today, but their faith was as strong then as ours is today, and in the same fashion as ours is today.

  • carolina

    will be decided by the Independents.

  • renny

    just attend any tea party and you will hear many speak of school issues, abortion, freedom of speech problems, pornography and its pernicious influence, the homosexual agenda(s), yadda, and none who are focused like a laser ONLY on fiscal issues.

    Fiscal issues count, but the tea parties are also a reaction to the entire progressive/DC culture that attacks at every turn traditional American values and customs.

    But Daniels is not IT. I am looking for who is IT.

  • Spiral

    I think Mitch Daniels might be looking ahead to a general election, in which the Left will attempt to paint him (is he were to be the GOP presidential nominee) as a “dogmatic, religious extremists who is obsessed with restricting abortion.”

    So, maybe Daniels is doing a ‘two-step.” To the social conservatives, he’s saying, “Hey, my record as Governor of Indiana speaks for itself. I am 100 percent pro-life.” To the non-social conservatives he’s saying, “Let’s have a truce and focus on the important issues like deficits and debt, taxes and spending.”

    Now, the main item I want from a Republican president is conservative judicial nominees. Not much else, really. Just make sure that unelected judges will not strike down pro-life legislation (mostly passed at the state level) as unconstitutional based on some unseen prenumbra in the Constitution.

    So, if Daniels simply says, “I want constitutionalist judges on the federal courts and those are the people I will appoint as president,” I could support him, despite the so-called “truce.”

    In that sense, the truce is a way of getting moderate-independent support in a general election.

  • congressworksforus

    I think a lot of the so-called “Social Conservatives” on here are looking at this the wrong way.

    Daniels isn’t aiming his comments at you; he’s aiming his comments at the “Social Conservatives” special interest groups (Susan B. Anthony, et al.)

    You can scream about “social” issues all you want; no one pays attention. But when some special interest group starts yacking — and contrary to the author’s claim that “Social conservatives have been relatively mute during the last several general elections,” groups like Susan B. Anthony have been anything BUT mute.

    Guess who gets the media’s attention? You? No. Susan B. Anthony? Yes.

    Guess who puts off “moderate” voters from voting for fiscal sanity at the ballot box because of social issues? You? No. Susan B. Anthony? Yes.

    So, look at it that way: it’s not an affront to you, or your beliefs, but a desperate call out to those special interest groups to shut the hell up PLEASE while we save the country.

    After all as I have said before, if the Marxists win, not only will abortion be legal, it will be mandatory…

  • eburke
  • Spiral

    In some GOP primaries, Republican candidates get into a bidding war regarding who is the most pro-life candidate. But there is concern that in doing so, the nominee is damaged in the general election.

    Not sure that there really is such damage, because lots of pro-life independents and pro-life Democrats will support a pro-life Republican but won’t support a pro-choicer.

    But I think basically Daniels is trying to say, from the get go, the same thing that US Senator Phil Gramm said at the beginning of his failed 1996 campaign for the GOP presidential nomination: “Hey, I’m not running for preacher.” Gramm was an economist by training and really just wanted to focus on economic/fiscal issues. I think Daniels is of a similar mindset.

  • congressworksforus

    “If people don?t believe our rights come from God, then those rights will always be able to be taken away.”

    Err, I disagree. My rights were given to me by my parents. And when I screwed up, they took them away :-)

    When I became an adult, I knew that my rights were what I determined them to be. I could “assign” my rights to the government, by voting for shady characters who espoused the works of Karl Marx, or I could opt to keep my rights by voting for people who believed the same thing I did.

    At no point did God come into the equation.

    I guess for those of you that do believe in God, it’s difficult to comprehend that it IS possible to believe in natural rights without needed to rely on someone else (God) to grant them to you.

  • LibertarianHawk

    Daniels has said more than once that he’d sign the Right-to-Work legislation if it made it to his desk. He just doubts it can make it to his desk. And he’s right to doubt it: he doesn’t have a large enough Republican House majority to form a quorum…which essentially gives the Democrats filibuster power.

    So he’s focusing on education reform, which is something he’s confident he can get passed.

    This isn’t being spineless — it’s choosing battles wisely.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    fix the budget and economy

  • LibertarianHawk

    Your last line is the key:

    “the truce is a way of getting moderate-independent support in a general election.”

    But even more key is that he’s not wavering on social issues. As you say, his record clearly shows him to be friendly to social conservative causes.

    GWB did something like this too, BTW. During the 2000 campaign, he said that the country “wasn’t ready” for abortion to be outlawed.

    This infuriated social conservatives — but it really shouldn’t have. And the proofs are named Roberts and Alito.

    SoCons would do well to better distinguish their friends from their enemies. They do have enemies, yes. But sometimes they confuse strategy with opposition.

  • pastisprolog

    Very briefly, the first conservatives to call themselves that were European aristocrats responding to loss of power in the liberalizing aftermath of the French Revolution. They strove to return Europe to the old political order of monarchy and feudal economy. France, trying to create a liberal republic without Christianity, fell into tyrany and slaughter, having no Biblical virtue to guide her, its leaders exacting revenge instead of giving forgiveness. Compare this to the aftermath of our Civil War, when general amnesty was granted to everyone who faught for the Confederacy.

    In America, founded as a liberal Consitutional Republic based on Biblical principles, conservativism is a mid-twenetieth-century response to the steady drift of traditional American liberalism into European progressivism. The goal was to conserve as much of the Republic as possible. As Bill Buckley said, “Stand athwart history and yell, Stop!”

    Today’s conserrvatives were yesterday’s (pre-progressive) liberals. Can people who are pro-abortion or pro-gay marriage or anti-gun, or anyone else join the Republican Party? Of course! Are they correct to call themselves conservative? Simply put, no. Do they share the world-view that her founders used to craft America? No. Is that critical? Yes. To the extent that progressive values (and pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage and antigun values are progressive) undermine the foundation of traditional American liberal government (today held by modern American conservatives) they weaken all conservative positions.

    Do they have their own justifications for calling themselves conservative. Yes, as should anyone who calls himself anything. Reasonable people should know the reasons they believe what they believe.

    But to be conservative is to be for more than just economic freedom. To be conservative is to believe what the founders of America believed, and what they believed included knowing that a nation that leaves the God of The Bible outside its halls of government, and whose people ignore that same God, will surely fall.

  • aesthete

    with culture and religion: while the two sometimes intersect, they don’t always, and particularly in a pluralistic (NOT multicultural, to be clear) society, the core tenets of a religion are often not adhered to in our code of laws. For example, blasphemy against the Almighty is punishable by death in the OT. Even if, as a Christian, you believe that such a draconian punishment was done away with with the New Covenant, it is clearly dear to God’s heart that he not be blasphemed. Yet, the First Am protects such speech, and Christians rightly support this protection: in a secular polity, that is what you do to ensure that the right to belief is protected.

    As a Christian (one of those scary fundamentalist types, even! :) ), I understand and agree with many of your points in a cultural and religious context (atheists borrowing someone else’s morality, second-class status for outsiders in Islam, etc), but to believe that culture and religion must also transfer to politics is to but into the leftist lie that the personal is the political.

  • LibertarianHawk

    He thinks it should be on the table for getting the budget back in line.

    And he has made comments questioning the level of our commitment to defense forces and military actions around the world.

    Since Daniels spent time running the Hudson Institute, he’s philosophically a pretty open book.

    Oh, and speaking of books, he did a “Five Books” interview and these are the books he recommended and spoke about:

    “The Road to Serfdom” – FA Hayek
    “Free to Choose” – Milton Friedman
    “What it Means to be a Libertarian” – Charles Murray
    “The Rise and Decline of Nations” – Mancur Olson
    “The Future and its Enemies” – Virginia Postrel

    Postrel is the former editor of Reason Magazine, BTW.

    That’s a reading list a guy like me can heartily endorse.

  • pastisprolog

    The whole concept of individual liberty and the natural rights of man came from Christian philosophers applying BIblical principles to inter-personal relationships, and by extension, to the proper form of a just governmant.

    It is in atheist countries where children belong to the state, not their own parents, and there is no personal liberty, no natural rights of man.

  • lscoolidge

    Yes! LOL When we were all kids – our ‘rights’ came from Mom and Dad – and they could take the keys or phone away whenever we crossed whatever line they’d told us not to cross.

    However, a family is a family – it is not the political institution of this country. Unfortunatly, when a hierarchical system such as the family is attempted, history is replet with cases where tyranny followed – the Islamic religious systems are one example, the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages is another (they even used terms like ‘Father’, ‘Brother’, ‘Sister’ and ‘Mother’ – in the Romance languages, in fact, the name of the Pope is ‘Papa’ – which is thier term for ‘Father’ or ‘Dad’. The Greek Orthodox did hte same with the title Patriarch – again root word is father).

    I’m not talking about the right to vote or the right to drive – although those are both derivatives of our basic rights. I’m talking about the Rights to Life, Liberty and Property (as Edmund Burke put it), or the Pursuit of Happiness (as Jefferson added). Those rights are the absolute foundation of human independence and liberty – without them, no man is free. Right to life is obvious – if the government can take your life on a whim, then what are you but a walking dead-man. Right to Liberty is secondary in importance, this allows you to pursue your dreams and your desires – start a business or hire yourself out to whatever person you’d like so that you can then purchaes whatever you’d like. The right to Property garuantees that what you work for is yours, and the government can’t take it from you. Jefferson’s Right to Happiness – if Glenn Beck is right – could refer to the Right to your Hapenstance – your capability to live life and make yourself better. I personnaly like Burke’s Property better than Jeffrson’s Pursuit of Happiness, but both are important.

    There are also a wide number of examples throughout history where people thought they could claim those three (or four) fundimental rights were from the larger group of people (the government) rather than from Government.
    - The French Revolution’s Red Terror and ‘Madam Guillotine’
    - Lenin & Stalin in the Soviet Union
    - Adolf Hitler in Germany
    - Polpot
    - Mao in China
    - Saddam Hussein, the Islamic Republic of Iran, Fundimentalist Islam etc.
    The list goes on – the similarity between all these dictators – be they National Socialists or Communists – were that they believed the fundimental rights as by Burke & Jefferson were granted to mankind by the Government, not by God. Therefore, the government could take away those rights any time they wanted and against any person or group of people they so desired – with murderous results unfortunatly.

    The sad thing is that all those dictators above used elections to take those rights from thier citizens. So, I fear we are on a very slippery slope becuase once our society at large fails to remember where our Rights do come from, then the people of the country will vote to take certain rights away. Obamacare is such a case – the Government has taken away our right to our Property becuase they attempted to tell us to spend our hard-earned money to buy medical insurance. We the People elected the Representatives and the Senators that adopted that legislation, and We the People elected the President that signed that bill into law.

    By the way, it’s not a crutch to believe that our Rights come from God. Rather, it gives us the moral support we need to defend those Rights when they come under assault by a rouge government.

  • acat

    Who are you to say what I “must believe” to agree that taxes are too high, abortion is wrong, firearm ownership is a fundamental right, etc. etc. ?

    Mew

  • lscoolidge

    There are also a wide number of examples throughout history where people thought they could claim those three (or four) fundimental rights were from the larger group of people (the government) rather than God.

  • LibertarianHawk

    Attitudes like this would be fatal to a functioning conservative movement.

    We need to bring more people into the fold, not find ways to alienate people from it.

    Now, I agree that surrendering core principles isn’t the way to do this. I have no interest whatsoever in the kind of Republican Party that Arlen Specter pined for after the 2006 election.

    But we’ve got to get away from this “you have to believe X, Y, and Z to belong…..otherwise, you’re not welcome here.”

    That’s a recipe for political irrelevancy. It’s what the Libertarian Party does, frankly. And that’s why they don’t matter.

  • LibertarianHawk

    And, considering our current circumstances, wouldn’t it make sense to elect somebody of that mindset?

    Probably more sense than it would’ve made in 1996 — or, at least, it would’ve seemed that way at the time.

    If it’s not Daniels, then let it be somebody like Pawlenty or Chris Christie or *somebody* who has shown a genuine ability to cut the cost of government. That’s what we need right now.

    We need somebody like Paul Ryan with a track record of governing. And it hasn’t escaped my attention that the one candidate Paul Ryan himself has mentioned is none other than Mitch Daniels.

  • bk
  • LibertarianHawk

    See, you’re misreading this. You’re misreading Barone’s statement that the Tea Party represents the very kind of “truce” that Daniels is talking about.

    It’s not that any TPers have surrendered their social values. It’s just that abortion, gay marriage, and other such matters are not what has motivated that movement. And that’s just a simple fact.

    Consider: if you’d have gone to an antiwar march back in 2004 or so, I suspect you’d have seen plenty of people talking about any number of left-wing issues that had nothing to do with the war.

    That stands to reason: most of the people at the antiwar demonstrations were on the left.

    But what was the overriding purpose that brought them all together? Gun control? Abortion rights? Labor unions?

    No. It was opposition to the war.

  • pastisprolog

    Surely it would be more polite to write, “Your last sentence seems to me to be overly narrow and unnecessarily exclusive.” Using insulting words may be provocative, but they aren’t pursuasive. Other than the tone, this is an excellent question.

    The “conservative” movement is undergoing an identity crisis. Is everyone conservative who believes in even one conservative principle? If not only one, how about two? Three? Four? Just how many conservative principles does one need to hold to be a conservative? Doesn’t this, in the end, become a litmus test no matter what?

    Who decides which principles are necessary? Or, optional? There is a risk to sink the whole conservative movement, politically, by letting everyone join no matter what they believe. There is also a risk to keeping out willing allies, no matter what they believe. It is, after all, politics. Just look at the history of every political movement and party. This dynamism keeps it healthy, but left to run amok, movements and parties break up into ineffective spinters or become meaningless and directionless clubs that just fade away into political insignificance anyway.

    Time will tell if the founding principles/social conservative/fiscal conservative/libertarian debate will be good for conservative politics, and by entension government in America, or if it will just help progressives make it only a footnote in American history.

    One way to guarantee that any political movement becomes insignificant is for it to compromise its core principles. Once that happens, it may grow, but it will eventually become meaningless. The other way is for the movement to be so exclusive that it doesn’t let anyone in. The future of America depends on blancing this correctly.

  • LibertarianHawk

    ….I think the GOP presidential contest is as wide open as any of my lifetime. 2008 was pretty wide open, too. This one is even moreso.

    There is no presumptive favorite. The closest there is right now is Mitt Romney. And I have to believe that his healthcare reform will doom him in a primary. Republican voters are not going to be in the mood to support a guy who signed into law the model of Obamacare — complete with a “mandate”, a central exchange, etc.

    The two biggest X-factors, IMO, are Jon Huntsman and Mitch Daniels — both of whom, if they run, could be viable candidates.

    I also think Pawlenty has a shot.

    Palin might too. But even Erick has finally conceded that she’s too radioactive. And for him to concede that is, IMO, significant. That’s probably not her fault as much as it is her critics. But it is what it is.

  • pastisprolog

    This has been terrific. Lots lots of fun to read, with great comments and replies and a minimum of the sort of invective and verbal snot throwing on so many other sites lately.

  • congressworksforus

    “By the way, it?s not a crutch to believe that our Rights come from God. Rather, it gives us the moral support we need to defend those Rights when they come under assault by a rouge government.”

    Two problems:

    1. If God doesn’t exist, do your rights revert back to the government?

    2. Whether God exists or not, must I believe in order to assert my own rights?

    Clearly the answer to both is no.

  • ciscoguy

    I understand and agree how conservatism and social issues are interrelated and inseparable, but even if we could bring Reagan back from the dead, that message is going to have a hard time breaking through when you can?t find a job.

    All I want out of our next president on this front is to reverse the Mexico City policy and to appoint as many Scalias to the bench as possible. On a day to day basis, there’s not a whole lot a chief executive can do on the matter. We can?t lose the forest for the trees on this or we will lose the battle. We have to use the same patient incrementalism that the left uses to chip away at the Constitution and apply it to the abortion fight.

    Obama is an incumbent president with a lot of fundraising power and will use any underhanded means necessary to hold on to hang on. Beating him is doable but not easy, but think of the implications of him winning another term. He will most certainly replace Ginsburg, whereas I?m not sure she can wait out another 4 years of a Republican term. Kennedy has basically said he is not going to retire until after 2012, hopefully implying he wants a Republican to appoint his successor but you never know. His reelection could mean a 5-4 stranglehold on the court until Breyer steps down, and you know he won?t quit until there?s another D back in the office. Think about it.

  • LibertarianHawk

    But isn’t it easy to see that it’s easy to get out of balance either way?

    I agree that the conservative movement shouldn’t abandon its principles just for the sake of growing the tent.

    That’s why things like a “truce” seem like a better way to go about it — particularly for a short-term situation where we have a genuine existential crisis on our hands.

    A “truce” doesn’t require anybody to abandon their principles whatsoever. Nor does it mean those principles aren’t going to matter when, say, a judicial nomination rolls around.

    Again, I think we as conservatives all need to do a better job distinguishing friends from foes. I agree that it requires a balancing act. But it’s easy for people on one side or the other of the fulcrum to think that “balance” means the other side gets off the see-saw.

  • pastisprolog

    He wrote Mere Christianity to try to point out how much common ground there is between the major Christian denominations, rather than always separating over the differences.

    We will all have to work together or we will surely fail separately.

  • lscoolidge

    I agree with your point to a point!

    Yes, freedom of speech is critical and important, freedom of religion as well – so we here in the US allow all people to believe (or not believe) in whatever faith they would like. We of the Judeo-Christian persuasion do believe that blaspheme is probably not the best way to improve your relationship with God.

    However, I will argue that our political system is a synthisis of our culture – the political system we have is derived from our culture. That is why, despite what the liberals attempt to say, we are a Judeo-Christian country – our basic code of laws are based on the 10 Commandments – and they still are, at least what I call the secular commandment (Commandments 5-10). Murder, theft, adultry, lying, disrespect towards parents and our ‘elders’ and greed (coveting) are all considered wrong or illegal.

    Please understand – I am NOT advocating a theocratic government – by no means. I want freedom of religion at all costs, becuase otherwise we descend into the tyranny of Good Intentions – as your signiture states so succinctly. However, to attempt to seperate our political system from our culture leads to the chaos and soft tyranny we have now, and are doing our best to – dare I say it – fight against.

  • brooklyncon

    He’s gone further than saying he doubts it will pass.. he said he didn’t want it to pass.

    Quote: “I don’t want to see it in this General Assembly.” (Post-Tribune 1/28/11)

    That’s open hostility to an law that Daniels has in the past admitted costs Indiana tens (hundreds?) of thousands of jobs. (Yesterday’s Wall Street Journal editorial on this subject had a number of quotes from Daniels on how a lack of a Right to Work law makes the Hoosier state less competitive.)

    If you’re going to call a “truce” on social issues then you better, at least, be a leader on economic issues.

    I’ll let others judge whether he’s being “spineless” but his outright hostility to right to work in his own state certainly doesn’t sound like conservative leadership.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    So is he getting up every day and pressuring Democrats to join in?

    Or is he punking out because he’s having more fun giving cover fire for the pro-aborts?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    to wish non-economic problems away and still get to be President

  • lscoolidge

    I’m sorry you don’t believe, but that’s the great thing about this country – you can hold whatever faith belief you have – or any non-belief you have.

    As to your first question – I pray every day that our rights DO NOT ‘revert back to the government’. Think about how bad it would be if the Congress held our rights in thier power – and could at their whim decide that we don’t have rights anymore – oh, wait . . . they did that last congress.

    So, I am curious – since you said that our rights do not revert to the government, wherefrom do our rights come from? I’m just curious, becuase if they do not come from God, then there is some entity somewhere that must have given them to us.

    As to your second question – God gave the natural rights of man to all men – wethey they believe in God or not. That is part of the unique differences between man and the whole remainder of the animal kingdom. I call that Free Will – we have the Free Will to believe or not to believe in God, but at all times we have the natural rights of man.

  • Scope

    pastisprolog wrote his comment of what a Conservative is in his view. No where in the comment does he say that you, or anyone else “must believe” anything. No where in his comment does he say that any politician running for office must pass any kind of “purity test.” On the contrary, it is the libertarians that hold purity tests near and dear, both literally and philosophically. It is the height of arrogance, and a full display of “it’s all about me, and my unlimited individual freedom” when libertarians demand that their view be accepted by those that hold traditional social values dear, and have for hundreds of years.

    One of my favorite lectures on the difference between conservatives and libertarians was given by Russell Kirk, at the Heritage Foundation, back in 1988. If anything, moral values have deteriorated even more rapidly since then. The Liberals have destroyed the very foundation that this country was founded on, and, the libertarians have been right there with them. Oh, you are going to hate this lecture, especially when he refers to Burkes claim that a majority of libertarians are homosexuals, which seems to be a conversation you are always smack in the middle of whenever it is brought up here.

    http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/a-dispassionate-assessment-of-libertarians

    I love when he says that the libertarians would take scripture and turn it into the book of “it’s all about me.”

  • ciscoguy

    I know most, if not all of them would vote for Daniels this time around. Whereas if we ran a Santorum or Huckabee, I think it would be a much more difficult decision for them. The state of affairs would have to get much worse before they would have the kind of edge Daniels would have right now.

    Anyone who thinks we can win without a plurality of Independents is crazy, and anyone who thinks beating the drum on social issues will help win them over is similarly delusional. That said, Daniels could have made his point without “truce” or “muted” comments and people probably wouldn’t be jumping up and down over it.

  • LibertarianHawk

    I don’t think he’s wishing any of this away. It’s a matter of near-term priorities in the guise of building a political coalition to tackle them.

    We can and should debate this, of course. But we don’t need to distort it in order to debate it.

    I don’t think we’ll have the political muscle to tackle the fiscal crisis with our normal coalition. That’s basically Daniels’ message and I suspect he’s right.

    And, if we don’t tackle it, nothing else is going to matter a whole lot.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    how much they have in common with most so-cons, esp as regards the 10th amendment aspects.

    Libertarians need to focus on how ObamaDems are in every room of their house and wallet, incl the bedroom.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    According to Mitch, a truce helps the rest of the agenda.

    If he can’t pass RTW, then his truce is exposed as a fraud.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Get educated, son.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    in his call for a truce and had no reason to call for one, however defined. I would also like a President that uses better judgment that that and that once he has something to say, makes what he means clear .

    The fatal flaw is that liberals and Dems will be having no truces, so that any truce would be that conservatives leave the life etc playing field to the Left while we have a truce on the right. Makes no sense. We can’t wish away those that wish to secularize the US.

  • pastisprolog

    What I wrote below, regarding C.S. Lewis, is that he wrote that Christians don’t have to compromise in order to work together, because thay have far more in common with each other than their differences, and far more in common together than with any non-Christians.

    What will the conservative movement gain if it loses the support of “social conservatives” to placate “fiscal-only conservatives” as has happened in the past. It may work locally, but at the national level it has proven difficult to justify.

    Have we really reached the point where we’re just going to say, “I’m taking my ball and leaving!” if fighting abortion remains an important focus of half of us, and ignoring it remains an important focus of others of us?

    As for letting Muslims, Hindus and atheists into the conservative “ten,.” anyone can support conservative policies. I never wrote otherwise. Jjust be wary of Trojan Horses. The problem is when we are divided against each other over non-conservative policies.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Get cracking. Show results. No excuses.

    Seriously, I don’t want to hear any excuses from y’all about your truce not working. If you fail, then your truce is discredited.

    No, save your excuses.

  • Finrod

    You need to either come up with some links to back up your words, or retract them. Breitbart has been out there fighting the good fight for conservatism and you’re backstabbing him. Similarly GOProud is taking conservatism to a group that is usually written off by most in the GOP.

    If what you say is true you should have no trouble finding plenty of links to back up your strong words. Otherwise you’re just causing trouble.

  • Scope

    “There is a risk to sink the whole conservative movement, politically, by letting everyone join no matter what they believe.”

    At one time it was the moderates, that pandered to everyone, and tried to be everything to everyone, just to get votes. The libertarians are now following that same path with their insistence that even those that go against conservatism’s core principles not only be welcome under the same tent, but who are openly advocating for legislation to favor their agenda, particularly the gays. To call for a “truce” on social issues is in itself advocating activism against the SoCons. Also, when is the last time you even heard the term National Security conservatism? It seems that there is also an unspoken “truce” against the NatSecCons also.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    We have no gatekeepers, no membership cards, no dues, no bylaws.

    It has no meaning to talk of keeping people out of it.

  • Scope

    for a “truce” on social issues by those on our side, we are automatically giving the win to the Liberals. They never call for any truces on social issues, but rather, they push their “social justice” agendas to the fullest. Take Planned Parenthood for an example. Our elemtary school students are being taught that it is OK to have two mommies or two daddies. And we’re supposed to just shut up about it????

  • acat

    Your entire post can be answered with two priniciples from Reagan.

    Someone who disagrees on 20% of what we want to do is not an enemy.

    There are three legs to the stool – strong families, strong defense, strong economy.

    A RINO is someone whose stool has only one leg. A squish is someone whose stool legs are flexible. In neither case do they have “a stool”.

    I disagree that the conservative movement is going through an identity crisis. I don’t see it. What I see are the aftershocks of what happened during the Obamacare debacle, where social conservatives – especially the anti-abortion ones – realized that they’d been stabbed in the back by the Dems (Stupak as the poster-boy for betrayal) and are now trying to not get fooled again. And that’s good – some of us saw Stupak and his ilk for what they were, and are glad to see their cover blown.

    The problem is, if this slides into a purity test, we all lose. Social Conservatives can win the white house alone, but it takes help from fiscal and libertarian conservatives to hold Congress.

    Mew

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Because guess what, you’re wrong. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why conservative should put up with the backbiting GOProuders like Breitbart.

  • acat

    Look, Scope. I get that you don’t trust libertarians. And given the garbage about what libertarians believe that you’re citing here, I can’t say I’m surprised.

    But.. it is garbage. And it’s one step closer to the kind of “purity” that will absolutely cost the conservative movement any chance of saving this country.

    I am not telling you to shut up. As a libertarian, I recognize your freedom to speak. I do have to say, though, that your continued bashing of those who agree with you on many issues is .. not helpful.

    Mew

  • acat

    and is happy to call GC a partner in rolling back Liberalism.

    Mew

  • congressworksforus

    Why cannot I assert my own rights?

    It’s quite simple to do, if you live by the creed that my rights are your rights. Or, in other words, whatever right I have, you have too.

    I don’t need anyone to give me that right. The government is an artificial entity and I do not grant it any rights; I give it a task to do, which it fails, miserably, over and over — does that make me insane? :)

    I have a right to live. I assert that right myself. If you wish to deny me that right, you are by the very essence of what rights are, denying yourself that same right.

    This really isn’t that difficult to comprehend…

  • acat

    The way I currently am reading Daniels is that he’s trying to get SoCons to not go down the road toward a purity test. I think he picked a very poor way to say it, and that it will likely cost him the nomination, but … he’s obviously not talking about a “truce” with liberals… so who else is there?

    Mew

  • lineholder

    if some of the bloated government programs paying for amoral activities are defunded, we can know that we aren’t enabling the continuing moral decline of our nation on those matters.

  • redneck_hippie

    Just found this on the web.

    http://www.nscblog.com/miscellaneous/do-unto-others-the-golden-rule-and-the-ethic-of-reciprocity/

    That said, I firmly believe in the exceptionalism of America (and Israel). We are founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Undeniably.

    By the way, excellent discussions all the way around these threads on what it means to be conservative and where do my rights come from…

  • Spiral

    You say that “it will likely cost him the nomination,” If that’s the case, who would he lose the nomination to?

    Romney? Huckabee?

    Sure, I can see how Daniels’ “truce” might make not the SoCons first choice. But I dare say that McCain was not the SoCons first choice in 2008.

    (By the way, I don’t like McCain at all, but that’s another issue.)

    Daniels might be playing it smart. He might be trying to get those Republican primary voters, and there are many of them, who really don’t focus on social issues, but are very interested in fiscal/economic/national security issues. At the same time, Daniels good pro-life record might mean that he will still do pretty well in the primaries among SoCons. That could be a formula for winning the nomination and the general election.

    I’m not saying that I would bet my house on it, but I can see a plausible case for it.

  • Darin_H

    But thanks for coming along anyways. First, we know that the left isn’t going to bother with a truce beyond thanking us for our unconditional surrender.

    Second, there is so much overlap between fiscal and social conservative issues, it’s tough to separate them. For instance, we need to cut spending, Planned Abortion Parenthood’s funding would be a good small start. Hey, that’s a social issue too… gee, I wonder how it will be reported? Heck the government has been pushing out private charity dollars for decades, what about that? Is that fiscal or a social issue? Yeah, it’s both.

    Lastly, the fact that he doubled down on stupid bothers me even more.

    Enjoy your 1% of the primary vote before you drop out, Mitch.

  • rightwingmom52

    Whenever I hear the argument “I vote for the candidate, not the party,” I point out that a vote for the candidate is a vote for their platform. And the Democrat’s platform is anti-life & anti-freedom in every facet. I think I’m beginning to convince some.

  • pastisprolog

    … too soon?

  • jerry39

    I’m know he conflicts with Social conservatves on issues like marriage amendment, legalization of drugs etc. But his brand of libertarianism was also very pro-life, In fact, from what I can tell he was the only or one of the only Conrgressman to introduce legislation year after year that actually had a shot at ending legalized abortion, and circumventing Roe v. Wade wihtout the need for a direct challenge, and without the need for a Constititional Amendment. He did this when R’s had a majority but the scope of the bill was too much for wishy washy pro-life R.’s. They would rather chip away at the margins.

    There is significant common ground for libertarians and social conservatives to get along. In some ways a “truce” might even be a good word, but the issues would be more like forgetting about things like legalizing marjiuana on one side, but also forgeting about national censorhsip of cable TV. Its at these margins that we may have to agree to disagree.

    But I simply dont buy that an informed libertarian can articulate a pro-abortion position based on ideology, “I’m a libertarian and therefore I believe we should deny the most innocent the most fundamental of liberties – the liberty to live.” To not be arbitrarily killed for the convenience of others. These are simply uninformed people who haven’ t fully grasped their ideology.

    And as usual, that is the type of truce being pushed right now. I have to say, the recent PP stings remind that even though many many good people are confused about abortion becuase no one tells them the truth – abortion is still evil. It is the lyncpin of evil in our society. Who knows the host of other evils that begin to fall if we can end this pracitce. But more importantly, who knows the host of evils that increase if allow it to continue. Lack of understanding of man and the dignity of man, the value of life, moral relativism, – these are the essentials to destroying democracy and replacing it with some form or another of totalitarianism.

    Those who think this issue should be ignored are not necessarily evil, but we must frankly admit that they have allowed evil into their hearts to at least some degree. Evil begets evil. So we will wonder when we elect some pro-abort or pretender that claims to be pro-life “when the time is right” how it is that they stray so far in all the other areas we thought they were solid in? There should be no wonder. they have already shown that they will compromise truth or that they simply cannot comprehend truth. Either way – being solidly and unabashedly pro-life is not just a single issue, it is, or should be in our current society – the cornerstone orf a public servant and leader. Without that cornerstone – you have nothing but a politician, serving no one but himself.

  • lscoolidge

    All you said is true – and I agree with it. And if assuming that the government has certain constitutional duties to fulfill that it continually fails at makes you insane – I’m right there with you (it’s getting painful hitting my head against the wall again, and again, and again . . . LOL).

    My only point is that history is full of examples where Governments have vastly overstepped there bounds and have ‘become responsable’ for natural rights – and every time that happens, those governments invariably become tyrannical and murderous.

    So – that’s my argument and that’s why I have been arguing about where rights come from. Those tyrants always argued – throughout history – that the rights were granted to people by the government.

  • acat

    Having read the book, I think I see where you’re going. It’s something I’ve brought up in other threads, but it bears repeating here.

    For all of the various branches of Conservatism to work together, we need to start by stating goals. Reagan did this – the oft-mentioned three legged stool of strong families, strong economy, strong defense – and was successful because even though some branches of conservatism rejected the precise forumula of “strong defense”, they knew Reagan to be an ally in the main.

    The Tea Parties did exactly the same thing – stated the goal of opposing the tax hikes and deficit spending etc. – and then brought together people who maybe disagree on why those goals are important, but who agree that they are important.

    Had Daniels come out with a statement along the lines of Reagan’s stool, set a goal, raised a banner, even with a vague statement… what does “strong defense” mean, anyway?… he could have brought people who mostly agree together.

    At this point, all he’s accomplished is to make the SoCons skittish that their oxen are going to be gored by their allies, removing their eyes from the enemy.

    Mew

  • redneck_hippie

    This is a political site. You know, where people advocate for causes they hold very near and dear. People can come here while taking a break from bashing and exploding liberals’ heads. Sometimes there’s dissention within the ranks, airing of grievances, settling old scores, whatever. I think things move along pretty well, all skirmishes considered. Besides, any traitors or spies are shot expeditiously.

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    Always happy to provide the proof. For starters, check out the column by Bob Parks after the last CPAC. In the column he allows GOProud director LaSalvia to blatantly attack Liberty University and other social conservatives without checking the facts or allowing those attacked to respond. My discussion with Mr. Parks and Mr. LaSalvia are in the comments section and are also indicative of their hostility.

    http://biggovernment.com/bparks/2010/02/26/conversation-with-goproud/

    I would also refer to the recent endorsement of GOProud at Big Government /Breitbart.com and Mr. Breitbart hosting a reception for them. You can search the relevant archieves for those articles.

    As to GOProud itself, simply go to their website and open their press release statements. There you will find that attacks on Jim Demint and the Family Research Council. In those attacks, Mr. LaSalvia not only attacks the social conservatives he attempts to place them outside of the conservative movement. GOProud has scrubbed many parts of its website like the support of DADT repeal and same-sex marriage.

    Thank you for the challenge. Now I challenge you to read.

  • Scope

    about libertarianism acat. No surprise there, as it doesn’t fit your agenda.

  • aesthete

    The first is that Christianity is a necessary (but not sufficient) factor needed for structured liberty in the classical sense. The fact that S Korea, Japan, and many other secular democracies of the classically liberal variety exist without much Christian influence disproves the notion that Christianity is necessary factor for stable liberal democracies. Turning our attention to the parties, most of the parties in Europe and other democracies that self-identify as Christian are, at best, center right. Many of the more classically liberal parties are proudly secular, OTOH. In the US, explicitly religious voters and political actors do tend to be at the forefront of many of our important movements promoting freedom and equal rights (abortion and abolition come to mind), but have also taken up movements that have degraded liberty significantly in this country (Prohibition and the so-called “War on Drugs” come to mind).

    To call a country, or even a nation, “Judeo-Christian” is a category error: one can only be Christian by submitting one’s life and deeds to Almighty God, apologizing for any affronts to His nature as our Creator, and maintaining a relationship with God. A state can do none of these things, and so cannot be “Judeo-Christian”. While I understand that you’re not calling for theocracy, I also think that it muddies the water when one calls a nation “Judeo-Christian” and thus excuses government involvement in the social sphere (or implies that non-Christians are therefore unable to fully participate in politics).

  • Spiral

    Truth be told, Russell Kirk isn’t going to cast the decisive vote in the 2012 Republican presidential primaires.

    There are, however, many Republican primary voters who, while they are socially conservative on most issues, put a higher priority on fiscial and economic issues. These people will probably be very receptive to the message Daniels is providing.

    We’ll see. It’s just an estimation on my part at this point. And this assumes that Daniels decides to make a run for it, which isn’t guaranteed either.

  • Scope

    I’ve been reading about Breitbart’s support of GOProud for a while now, including that he is holding a big bash for them at CPAC. As much as he has done some great work with respect to the Pigford case, ACORN and now Planned Parenthood, I don’t even go to the Big Government site anymore. It made me sick. He is a big deal at CPAC, and is apparently holding hands with Grover Norquist, who has been called a libertarian, but in actuality is more of a far right radical. If CPAC lasts beyond this year, they need to change their name to LPAC or maybe GAYPAC.

  • acat

    That’s a simple fact of life, so your hypothesis that Daniels is hoping to win the nomination by getting just FiCon votes … is not viable.

    I can see a case where Daniels would not want to put up a vague goal and spending the rest of the campaign trying not to define it.. (“I am for a strong defense!” “What do you mean ‘strong defense’?” repeat ad nauseum) and I can see where calling for a truce may have appeared to be a reaonable substitute… maybe. I still think it was a stupid move.

    I don’t know that Daniels is sunk, but .. he will have a very hard time doing well in the early primaries if the better-funded more experienced Romney team draw heavy FiCon support while the higher-profile Palin and/or Huckabee teams draw heavy SoCon support… basically Daniels is left competing with Pawlenty, Barbour, etc. for the crumbs, and that doesn’t usually work out…

    Mew

  • aesthete

    Very happy in my Pentecostal church, thankyouverymuch. Nonetheless, the deontological atheist argument for rights would likely focus on the fact that an individual exists, can think, experiences pain, etc, and that if anyone should have a right to life, liberty, and property, it is the person to whom those things belong, not a government alienated from that individual. In that sense, it is not all that different from Christians claiming that our rights come from our dignity as human beings as a result of our divine nature, and about as arbitrary as positing a super-being’s existence as evidence for rights*.

    *Actually, that’s not all that theists would claim, and I believe that the theistic case for inalienable rights is stronger than the atheistic case, but since this is a political forum, and not a religious one, I won’t get into that. Just wanted to point out that the atheistic case for rights is not necessarily fallacious.

  • Scope

    you have attended, but it could not be any Tea Party Patriot events. They have adopted their own unspoken truce on SoCons and NatSecCons. They apparently believe that if you don’t talk about those issues, they will just go away.

  • aesthete

    Plenty of governments have asserted powers granted to them by *The* Higher Power. Mostly, despotic governments have just switched the pretext to the “will of the people” or somesuch garbage. Moreover, communists, French revolutionaries, and the others that you list were not looking for a right to their own life, liberty and property: they were looking for a right to other people’s life, liberty, and property. Examining those systems and their protection of rights without looking at that distinction of rights is flawed.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    that reject the life issue.

  • pastisprolog

    Neil, is your question aimed at me? If it’s in response to my comments, either I expressed myself badly or incompletely, or you misunderstood me. Entire books have been written about the Christian underpinnings of America and also the formation of the conservative movement in America. It just isn’t possible to do more than quickly summarize specific points.

    Everyone is entitled to believe what he likes, and thoughtful people have reasons for belieiving as they do. It shouldn’t be provocative to say some ideas are bad and some are good, or right or wrong. If I have a bad idea, and my conscience doesn’t make be aware of it, I hope my friends do.

    I surely didn’t intend to make anyone think I don’t believe they are entitled to believe as they want, or to their own reasons for their beliefs. When I was an atheist, I was entitled to be one and had my own reasons, just as I have my reasons not to be one now. My Hindu and Muslim friends have the same rights, and I am glad to live in a country where they do. I’m glad they live here, too.

    Everyone can have their own reasons to be conservative, or progressive, but of course, progressives are still wrong. And, if you will pardon my poke, so are atheists, who also happily tell me the same thing about my faith. I should expect no less among friendly adversaries. No matter what else anyone believes, it isn’t possible for both atheists and Christians to be right about their faith.

  • Spiral

    As I see it, Romney will not get a ton of support from the FiCons due to his support for Romney-Care in Massachusetts.

    Huckabee, if he runs, will get the votes of those who care only about abortion, but don’t care about Huckabee’s willingness to release criminals to society because they gave him a story about converting to Christianity.

    Palin could be a formindable contender, but she might decide not run. Given that she didn’t have the stomach to finish her 4 year term as governor, this is evidence that she prefers making money for her very large family and being a private citizen and a king-maker/endorser of candidates.

    Daniels will not get zero support from SoCons. He will get support from people who are across the board conservtives, but who think that Daniels has it right, that the main focus should be on our economy, lack of jobs and our huge debt, pulling back from Euro-socialism.

    I can’t say for sure that Daniels will win, assuming he runs. But at this point, I’d say he has a better chance than just about any other candidate I can think of.

  • acat

    You’re making conservatism smaller at a time when you should be trying to make it larger.

    Not by compromising what you believe, but by looking for others who agree with your goals.

    As for your anti-libertarian propaganda, it’s just .. kinda pathetic.

    Mew

  • earlgrey

    so he is toast for sure.

  • aesthete

    both in IN and at the national level. IMO, passing school choice would be a huge win, and should be taken into account as a factor even if RTW doesn’t pass.

    I do think that you have a good point, though, irrespective of Daniels and his comments or political philosophy: we should be looking to see which leads to better results for shrinking government, emphasizing social issues, or downplaying them. So far, I don’t know of many conservative governors who campaigned stridently on social issues and achieved conservative results, but I could just be ignorant on that issue.

  • Scope

    that the most of the replies to your comments, disagreeing with you to varying levels, are the resident libertarians. You can see by many of their comments that they agree with Daniels calls for a truce, because to them the only issue worth discussing is the fiscal issue. To them the conservatives can’t/shouldn’t try to walk and chew gum at the same time.

    I have really enjoyed you well thought out, and intelligent replies/rebuttals. One thing to keep in mind though, you will never out debate the libertarians, and, you will never get the last word in, that is unless you cry uncle.

  • hoosierteacher

    You keep wondering why so many conservatives have a problem with Mitch, as in “What did he say that’s so wrong?”

    You then spend comment after comment trying to say what Mitch “really” means to say. The answer to everyone’s angst in your own replies. Taken at his own word on two seperate occassions, Mitch told half of the conservative movement (the social side) to shut up. He used derogatory terms (hitting the mute button – shut up, rabbit hole – futile policy) to drive home his point.

    What Mitch said, and what just everyone interprets it to say, is for conservatives to sit down and shut up. When given the chance to clarify his statement he doubled down. In your haste to defend him, you’re trying to say something that Daniels ISN’T saying.

    There are only two possiblities – 1) Mitch is being hostile in his remarks, or 2) Mitch chose his words very poorly on two seperate occassions to make his point, and is to dumb to hold higher office.

    Perhaps I (and a majority) of conservatives are misreading Mitch’s comments. But it is clearly a majority (if you read RedState, Weekly Standard, and National Review, to name a few sites online appaled at Daniels).

    I mean no disrepect, but only a libertatian wouldn’t be offended by his remarks. As a libertartian, you believe that the government only has a role fiscal matters. For those of us that are conservatives (conservative on fiscal and social matters), your damned right we would take offense.

    In case you haven’t noticed, the bad guys (the left) aren’t fighting amongst themselves over wether to drop half of their agenda. They are full speed ahead on every front. Allowing a few million more abortions in order to get our financial house in order is absurd.

    Mitch knocked himself out of any serious presidential bid because he thinks we can’t push for sound economic policy and sound social policy at the same time. You may not believe that, but it isn’t the point. The vast majority of people that have read Mitch’s words are taking him at his word.

  • jerry39

    Or Natural Laws if they do not orgiginate out of something greater? The common use of the terms imply those rights granted by God and those laws instituted by God.

    You live in a society entirely based on the notion of defending our inalienabe rights derived from God.

    Has it strayed from those origins? Yes. It has in fact strayed from those origins sufficiently to elect shady characters who espouse the views of Karl Marx.

    What you dont understand is that if a majority fails to grasp man’s rights and the digniity of man as derived from God, your vote won’t matter.

    I would say 15 to 20% of our population would think the death penalty justifed if you stepped on sea turtle egg on the one hand, while also believing the death penalty justifed if you interfered with their right to kil their human baby. Otherwise they are violently oppoed to the death penatly for such crimes as murder and rape. There is simply no sustainable independent notion of man’s rights,

  • acat

    who are interpreting this to mean their oxen are going to get gored, eh?

    Mew

  • aesthete

    If so, why? And if so, where does that leave non-Christians who support conservative planks? For that matter, is Christian ecumenical thought in politics really tenable, considering the number of schisms between and within Protestants, Catholics, the Orthodox Church, and offshoots of Christianity (to say nothing of the complexity that is modern Judaism)?

  • Spiral

    Mitch’s record on pro-life issues and other social issues remains what it is. If he had a decent record on social issues before he made the “truce” comments, he still has a decent record on those issues.

    He’s simply saying that if he runs for president and/or becomes president, his focus will be on fiscal/economic issues. I would wager that a large majority of Republican primary voters would agree with him on this.

    He did not say, “I have now decided to become pro-abortion and pro-same sex marriage.” Nor did he say, “I would appoint justices to the US Supreme Court who will maintain the Roe v Wade decision.”

    None of that. He simply stated what his priorities were. He’s an across the board conservative who’s focus is on the fiscal/economic issues. Seems to me that this makes him a perfect fit for both the GOP 2012 presidential primaries and the general election.

    Or at least one could make a good argument that he is a good fit for those contests. All of the other candidates have flaws ranging from significant (Palin, Romney) to disasterous (Huckabee).

  • Scope

    can win by pi$$ing off the SoCons has already lost a third of his base. Going further than that, Daniels has also called for additional defense spending cuts, while the middle east is on fire, and we do have many who want us wiped off the map, has lost another third of his base. Anyone who thinks Daniels has any chance at the nomination is delusional, to use your word. Daniels doesn’t need to waste his time or ours with a run for the highest office in the land.

  • aesthete

    who understood his own movement, but he wasn’t very good at understanding other movements. The link given is not dispassionate and does not rise to the level of an assessment: it is pure pejorative and strawman slaughtering based on a false conception of libertarianism.

  • aesthete

    When someone mis-characterizes a movement that you’re simpatico with, it tends to be received poorly. That is not a big surprise, anymore than it would be if I linked to an article saying that the majority of conservatives are inbred racist hicks, and declared victory after people dissented with that view. That’s pretty much trolling 101 right there.

  • Spiral

    You have some Christians who support socialism because of the scripture “we are our brothers keepers.”

    In other words, they believe that as they express their faith in the political sphere, being a good Christian requires one to be a good socialist.

    Now, that’s just one interpretation of Christianity. Obviously, most Christians are opposed to socialism. But the Bible doesn’t spend a lot of time discussing whether government power should be given to the states, the counties or the federal government, whether there should be national health care or a minimum wage or social security or medicare or school vouchers and so on.

    But, still, give me a free market guy like Milton Friedman, who was agnostic and culturally Jewish, over a Christian like Mike Huckabee, who lets criminals out of jail because they lie to him by telling him that they have accepted Jesus as their lord and savior.

  • pastisprolog

    The thing is, the modern liberal democracy is an invention of Christians applying Biblical principles to government to create our constitutional republic. None ever existed prior to this. Other, later, governents were formed by people trying to copy what our founders made here.

    McAurthur essentially wrote the Japanese Constitution after WWII. England gave democracy to India, and bless their hearts, they kept it. Many democracies aren’t really classic liberal democracies. They have only one approved political party, or no private property rights, or operate as police states, or have state control of industry, etc.

    Other countries have made efforts to implement better copies of our form of liberal democratic constitutional republic. Some are more or less successful than others. But they are still trying to copy our form of government.

    Personal liberty, the exercise of free will in public as well as in private, secure private property and so on, these were never before recognized as rights by any government but first England and then America, and not until after John Locke wrote about the Rights of Man being founded upon The Bible.

    Can a nation be Christian? Depends on the character of its laws and its people. Like it or not, the builders of America, from the beginning, intended to lay the foundation of this nation on the Bible, in law and character. They said so, and they did so.

    If we didn’t keep it so, set that at our feet, not theirs.

    By the way, Noah Webster wrote this, ?In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed…No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.?

  • acat

    that I’m interested in working with you, and pastisprolog, and GC, and Asthete even though I do not agree with you in the entirity.

    If I did agree with any one of you entirely, after all, I would become not myself – and further, I would still disagree with the rest of the list above.

    I don’t know why you’ve decided to come out so strongly anti-libertarian these days.. I do know it makes it harder to find common ground at a time when all branches of conservatism need to hang together….

    Mew

  • Scope

    and said that we need to be adults and understand that we may have to raise taxes. It has been said by many that with those remarks he is signaling to the Democrats that he is willing to compromise, before any compromise is even necessary.

    So add it all up- Daniels has angered the SoCons, the NatSecCons and also some of the FisCons. Where does that leave him?

  • lineholder

    why is he ashamed or afraid to own up to it verbally?

    Anytime I see someone whose words and actions don’t match, I always find myself looking for a lie. Perhaps it isn’t justifiable in all cases to respond that way, but I’d rather question it than end up being deceived.

  • Spiral

    Let’s see some proof. A link perhaps.

    I would be very surprised is Daniels supported a Value Added Tax, which I am completely opposed to by the way.

    I would not support anyone who supports either a Fair Tax (a 22 to 23 percent national sales tax) or a national Value Added Tax.

  • lineholder

    would also reduce and possibly eliminate their influence in our school systems as well. They have instructional videos that they provide for teachers to educate our children on sexual “freedoms”.

    Our third graders now know far more about sexual activity that it really is wise for them to know, simply because they haven’t reached a point in life of developing discernment and understanding how to make wise choices.

    By defunding programs of this sort, maybe we could finally get back to basics where the emphasis is on providing our children with the best education that our taxpayer money can provide.

  • Spiral

    I don’t see Daniels as being ashamed to say that he has a good record as Governor of Indiana on social issues. I view it as Daniels saying, “My highest priority is our nation’s fiscal situation, our huge, unsustainable national debt.”

    This does not make him Arlen Specter on abortion or Arnold Swarzenegger on gay marriage. It just means that, as Phil Gramm said to some social conservatives when he was running for President in 1996, “Hey, I ain’t running for preacher.”

    Remember, Phil Gramm’s record as a US Senator from Texas was 100 percent pro-life. But Gramm was an economist by training and that was his focus. I think Daniels is wired the same way.

    Not everyone is plugged into the same issues. Some are really interested in foreign policy. Some are really interested in economics. Others are really interested in the abortion issue. We can’t expect all candidates to be equally concerned about all issues simultaneously.

  • LibertarianHawk

    He said he’d sign it. He’s said that multiple times.

    What he doesn’t want is for the legislative session to break down and thwart his priorities…the priorities he ran on in 2008 and made as the centerpiece of the 2010 campaign. And it’s important to realize that he was deeply involved in the 2010 race, although he himself wasn’t on the ballot.

    He put several million dollars from his PAC into legislative races. And everywhere he campaigned with candidates (which was all over), the primary issues dealt with the budget and education policy.

    In short, he’s focused on what he and the candidates he supported campaigned on.

    His problem with right-to-work has nothing to do with the nature of the legislation — which, again, he said he’d gladly sign.

  • acat

    mostly because right now who’s in and who’s not is mostly rumor and supposition and guesswork.

    Whoever the nominee is, I’ll support ‘em … but I’m hoping for someone I can actually *like*. (unlike McLame)

    Mew

  • Scope

    I believe that reply was to aesthete. Follow the blue line, and you will see who the reply is for.

  • Spiral

    I wish Pence had decided to run for President. But I live in Indiana and I will benefit from him being Governor here. So, oh well.

  • LibertarianHawk

    No Democrat is going to support RTW. They’ve unanimously said they would not only oppose it, but would walk out on the session…denying a quorum.

    He’s got things he wants to get done. And he’s intent on getting them done. He campaigned on getting them done.

    When they’re done, then they should try to get RTW through…which they won’t, not in this session anyway.

    Trust me, I’d love nothing more than to see RTW as well as the vouchers and charter school expansion he’s trying to get.

    The difference is that latter is possible with the current Assembly, the former almost certainly isn’t.

    So what he’s faced with is getting 1 of those things (school reform) or none of them (if the Dems deny a quorum…which they did to him in 2005).

  • pastisprolog

    … in ages. It’s been great to debate intellegent, thoughtful and well-spoken people.

    And, you’re right about the way Daniels should have stated his case. Talk about foot-in-mouth!

    I can’t stay here all day, so I’ve got to quit now, but to all my new friendly adversaries on this site, thank you for such an enjoyable few hours.

    What I have found is that, people today tend to jump at every difference and, after hurling an insult and getting insulted back, dig in their heels and keep “arguing.” That makes us look …. fill in your own thought; I’m sure it’s accurate.

    I’ve had to work with what are called unlikely bedfellows to accomplish necessary goals so many times in the past, well, I’ll take my allies where I find them. As was said after they were criticized for not using an entirely Christian crew to make The End of the Spear, “If we only used sanctified Christians to make our films, we’d never make any.” There is a lesson in that.

    Have a great day, and, as my favorite comedian (Red Skelton) used to say, “… and may God bless.”

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    A big part of the problem and one ignored by most of the commentators is that in calling for the truce he attacks social conservatives and calls their issues – rabbit holes, etc. Since when did the dignity of human life become a rabbit hole issue?

    Daniels choice of words demonstrates a serious problem when crafting a message. If he cannot hold together his own coalition, how can he be expected to unite a country behind any policy.

  • Spiral

    Remember, Daniels did not say, “I was formerly pro-life, but now I’m pro-abortion.”

    He’s making himself appear “moderate” on social issues, but his record is what it is.

    And let’s face facts. Most Republican primary voters and most Americans generally want to see our elected officials focus on the economic/fiscal crisis that we are currently afflicted with.

    Put it this way, right now, with Mike Pence and Jim DeMint not in the race, I don’t see anyone better than Mitch Daniels for President.

  • acat

    Cain is the one I want to support.

    I could also support Barbour, Daniels, Pawlenty…

    I would support Palin in the general, and could support her in the primary if it’s a choice between her and one of the retread clown posse.

    None of the retreads. No to Romney, no to Newt, no to Huck.

    Mew

  • lscoolidge

    to other people’s property to uphold thier arguments about the natural rights for the common protelatriat. Look at Marx, he was arguing they had to take from the rich to give to the poor to uphold the rights of the poor. Article 2 of the French Revolution’s Decleration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen stated: “The aim of all political association is the preservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of man. These rights are liberty, property, security, and resistance to oppression.” [from http://www.hrcr.org/docs/frenchdec.html, this is a translation made by another individual].

    So, the French Revolutionaries obvious were looking to secure the natural rights of man. However, they immediatly went in and, after destroying the Catholic Church and absorbing all powers of the Church to the government, began thier reign of terror. You’re right – they claimed ‘will of the poeple’ or some such dribble – but that is my point exactly. These autocratic regimes break in with their promise to gaurantee your individual rights – the basic rights (and they then add a host of other ‘rights’ to get you hooked).

    That is my argument – the don’t ever value the true actual natural rights of man – they put them on like window dressing to make thier manefestos look and feel nice. Then when they get into power, they immediatly proclaim that those rights come from the government, and for the betterment of the people, society, etc. . .

  • lscoolidge

    I assumed and I was wrong

    I apologize

  • LibertarianHawk

    I don’t see why this is so hard for people to understand.

    I think social conservatives have had to fight so many battles within the Republican Party against the likes of Specter, Collins, Schwarzenegger, Snowe, Jeffords, McCain, etal. that the reaction we’re seeing here haas almost become second nature whenever a Republican politician says anything that isn’t right on the company line.

    I understand that. In fact, I more than understand it…I sympathize with it.

    But it’s easy to confuse strategic maneuvering with opposition.

    I remember it vividly with GWB in 2000. When he said that he was pro-life but that he didn’t think the country was ready for abortion to be outlawed, the stuff hit the fan.

    Gary Bauer pledged a primary run and perhaps a 3rd party run. Others were apoplectic too — I remember seeing James Dobson on C-Span shortly after that also expressing concern.

    Think how short-sighted that was in retrospect. GWB was not a foe of the social conservative movement. He nominated a lot of very good judges in his tenure, including a couple to the SCOTUS who have, thus far, been terrific.

    I’ll say it again: as a movement, we need to do a better job distinguishing between genuine apostasy and strategic positioning by friendlies.

  • acat

    I will vote for any R over a D in the general. Just want to be clear on that point.

    Mew

  • Spiral

    As for Cain, I do not believe that Cain can pull an Eisenhower. That is, I don’t thnk Cain can be the first candidate since Eisenhower to be elected President without first being a US Congressman, Vice President or a Governor. So, I tend to put him on my second tier list.

    Barbour is interesting in the context of this discussion too. Back in 1993, when Barbour become RNC chairman, he said of the abortion issue, “If we make all our decisons about candidates based on abortion, we’d need our heads examined.” So, Barbour isn’t somene who wants to put primary focus on aboriton anymore than Daniels. I don’t see Pawlenty doing that either. I see Pawlenty as primarily focused on spending and debt, jobs and the economy.

    So, I think all this negativity about Daniels is misplaced. Again, I think he could be the GOP nominee in 2012, if he runs that is.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Who said atheists have no justification for conservatism.

  • lineholder

    we do not need to bury our heads in the sand on social issues, pretending that as long as we don’t acknowledge they exist they won’t be a problem.

    Here’s the deal for me, personally. I’ll support whoever gets the nomination in order to prevent the socialist agenda from being pursued, but I won’t ENTHUSIASTICALLY support someone who constantly and repetitively calls for truces on social issues. What’s more, given some of the posts written above, I would say that there are plenty of other people who are likely to respond in much the same way that I will.

    In the next election, the enthusiasm factor will make a difference as to how many feet hit the ground running in GOTV efforts for the nominee. It would be dumber than dirt to underestimate the importance of this.

    Daniels could have acknowledged social issues openly and honestly. By doing so, at least he wouldn’t have left himself wide open to all this speculation. But he choose to take this “truce” approach instead, and he has shot himself in the foot by doing so.

  • LibertarianHawk

    I’m not ready to do much handicapping with the GOP primary. To me, it looks more than wide open. I don’t buy the notion that Palin is inevitable — I’m not even sure she’s going to run.

    So who would be the presumptive favorite if she doesn’t? Romney? Well, I think that (a) if Romney couldn’t close the deal in 2008 against somebody like McCain, 2012 seems an even longer shot, and (b) now he has the albatross of his healthcare reform to deal with.

    So I think the contest is pretty wide open, such that it’s ripe for somebody who we might normally think “has no chance” could very conceivably have a chance.

    I think Jon Huntsman will have a real chance — and nobody’s even been talking about him until recently.

    Also, regarding pi$$ing off the SoCons, see elsewhere my discussion about GWB saying in 2000 that the country wasn’t ready for abortion to be outlawed.

    He pi$$ed of SoCons when he said that — and won, largely on the strength of their support.

  • LibertarianHawk

    He doesn’t need to show that it’s possible. As Barone pointed out, it already exists in the form of the Tea Party.

    Barone’s right about that, even if a lot of people would rather than he weren’t.

    I also happen to think that the GOP nominee, in order to have a chance to win, will have to be able to count on support that bridges the gap between the Tea Party and the more traditional Republican base/establishment.

    I don’t know if Daniels can pull off that trick or not. But I’m relatively certain there are other potential Republican candidates who couldn’t.

  • lineholder

    If you read the comment I responded to, the point was made that Daniels actions as governor could be interpreted as support for social issues, such as how he is addressing the school issue in the state.

    If that is so, there would be no need for him to make the comments he has about muting social issues concerns UNLESS he is either afraid or ashamed to admit that there is a genuine concern on his part.

    It’s a reflection on the character of an individual who is being considered as a candidate for the highest office in our nation and I believe that the possibility that he is afraid to face social issues head in an honest, direct manner should be acknowledged.

  • jerry39

    Based on other conversations. Our republic is founded on the belief that we are endowed with certain rights, by our creator. This applies theism, it applies mono-theism. Judeo-Christian beliefs are not necessarily exclusively implied, but are the best if not-only examples of belief systems assuming those rigths which the founders went on to eneumerate.

    However, the Republic itself is the implementation of that founding belief and does require all of its members to embrace that belief. If fact one of those rights is the freedom of religion. One of the tenents of those religions is voluntariness. We dont force people to pledge loyalty to JC at gunpoint. We do not foster the freedoms we are endowed with, by taking those very freedoms from those who dispute their existence or their source.

    It is true that Conservatism cannot be about preserving the rights and freedoms guaranteed in our founding documents – separate from – a recognition of the source of those rights. That source is most definitely, one God.

    BUT – and i think this is where the current conflict resides, one does not have to believe in one God to be conservative. That is one reason why God’s law is often called the natural law, and those rights, natural rights. Not only are they from God, they are also often understandable as truth independent from God. So yes, anyone can indepdently undertand how freedom to own property and to contract and capitalistic principles will yeild better results for more people than any state managed system could. Same with all conservative principles.

    However, there are those principles directly relational to the continuation of the Republic, which are also both theologically and logically understandable. When a person understands many conservative principles, but does not understand them all – potentially no problem, big tent and all that. But when this group fails to grasp the integrity of man – they fail to grasp the very foundation of the republic – for if God does not grant the right to life to the most innocent among us, then our entire premise for freedom eventually falls to the whims of men.

    Even then, a conservative can fail to understand without ceasing to be a conservative, based on some complicated formula as has been discussed. But when he or she starts actively fighting against such a foundational notion of the republic – then the conflict becomes too great for conservatism to bear. In essense it is being asked to seek its own destruction, for the purposes of its own sucess. An impossibility.

    Those who seek a truce on right ot life issues, dont understand that there is no such thing allowing millions of Americans to continue to be stripped of every right, of their most basic right and calling it a “truce.” It is as absurd as if I were puncing you in the stomach over and over and over again, and we agreed to a truce whereby I kept punching and you had to stop defending yourself.

  • LibertarianHawk

    The issues won’t go away. If anybody believes that, they’re naive.

    The point here is to find a unifying theme to meet the moment. And while it’s fine to say that we can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, if you delve into Daniels’ statement a bit further you’ll find that his aim is to broaden the reach beyond the normal conservative coalition.

    Obviously, this is a contentious suggestion and it deserves to be debated on its merits. But we should keep the debate on its merits and what it is — not on something it is not.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    where Mitch tells social conservatives to “shut up”

  • lineholder

    a significant role in where we go from this point forward.

    There is some evidence to indicate that the judiciary branch of our government is coming back to life. I’m hoping it will continue.

  • jerry39

    the republic does NOT require all of its members .. (second par.)

  • Finrod

    Yeah, because infighting is just what we need to help us evict Obama and congressional Democrats in 2012.

    (/sarcasm)

    And before you say “They started it!” I’d point out that there were people here attacking GOProud as soon as they found out the group existed, before they made any statements on anything.

  • LibertarianHawk

    “There are, however, many Republican primary voters who, while they are socially conservative on most issues, put a higher priority on fiscial and economic issues.”

    In most previous election cycles, I would think such a message would (widely) fall as flat as people in this thread are receiving it.

    In the upcoming election cycle, though, I suspect it will resonate.

    The message, though, isn’t that social issues don’t matter, or that everybody has to check their social values at the door, or anything like that. The message is that we’ve got an urgent matter on our hands that needs immediate and undivided attention.

    And we will need a sizable coalition to confront it, else efforts to do so will fall to demagoguery.

  • lineholder

    to GWB victory than simply the issue you have mentioned.

    Yeah, Daniels has pissed SoCons off, and it was a foolish thing to do, LH.
    He could have acknowledged that social issues do matter and they need to be addressed rather than all this nonsense about “muting” and “truces”.

    And I do think it could be a reflection on his governing position if he is elected. So if someone else who is more honest, direct and straightforward in acknowledging the hard, cold reality of social issues comes along to compete against Daniels, who do think SoCons are going to support?

  • LibertarianHawk

    He’s speaking to those out there who are open to joining ranks with us on fiscal matters, but are put off by our social platform.

    Trust me, I don’t think he’s under any delusions — I know that I’m certainly not — about liberals and Dems taking part in any kind of truce.

    But that’s not his intended audience.

  • LibertarianHawk

    I wouldn’t bet the farm on it — I realize that, as of now, he has to be considered a longshot. He’s not well-known outside of Indiana and people like us who follow politics closely. And he clearly has, um, aesthetic obstacles….not to mention this brouhaha over the truce.

    But, in general, I think the GOP primary is very wide open right now….mostly because I have a hard time seeing either of the two people most often mentioned as presumptive frontrunners — Palin and Romney — emerging victorious.

    Usually, I’d say that people like Daniels, Pawlenty, Huntsman, Barbour, etal would have little chance. But there’s no heir apparent right now and, as such, virtually all of these people have something of a realistic chance.

  • Finrod

    It was Liberty and FRC that made a big noise about leaving CPAC as soon as they learned that GOProud was invited, before GOProud took a stand on anything. So I suppose GOProud isn’t allowed to defend itself, in your eyes. And as far as “attempts to place them outside of the conservative movement”, that’s exactly what Liberty and FRC tried to do to GOProud.

    As for GOProud’s site, I read their site months ago. Did you read their list of ten legislative priorities? I think even you would agree with all of them but #7 (they oppose the marriage amendment).

    http://www.goproud.org.php5-12.dfw1-2.websitetestlink.com/federal-legislative-priorities/

  • lscoolidge

    you are right, the country can not have a character or philosophy. However, the country, and a nation to an even greater extent – is the manifestation of a group of people with similar beliefs and values, a common language – or in other words a common culture. So, let me say rather than the US, let me say the majority of the American people form a Judeo-Christian society. In this case, the society itself is not Judeo-Christian – as you say it can’t – but its has become a common descriptor for our society.

    I think that the American culture – however you define it – used Judeo-Christian principales as a basis for developing that culture in our history. Japan and South Korea both have a dramatically different history – and thier societies are significantly different than anything we in America could envision. You are right – Christianity is not neccisary for the basis of an organized society, but I will argue that Christianity is the basis of our society. For that reason, I will further argue that Christianity is, if not neccisary, then should be acknowledged as one of the foundations of our society – fair argument?

    Your point about prohibition backs up my argument – I do not want a theocracy. At that point, we truly will become a Tyranny of Good Intentions.

  • LibertarianHawk

    …whoever is unhappy with the status quo on social matters — pro-lifers on the abortion issue, supporters of gay marriage on that issue — should be the ones most put off.

    Because they’re wanting to change how things are. And a “truce” would suggest that, for the time being, we’re going to focus on other matters.

    As a pro-lifer, that would give me pause if Daniels’ record on abortion was checkered like, say, McCain’s or Romney’s (not to mention openly hostile to the right-to-life like Giuliani). But his abortion record is fine, so I suspect there’s little cause for concern when that inevitable day comes when a stand must be taken pro or con.

  • Spiral

    I agree completely. The US Supreme Court is probably my number one issue right now.

    Which is why I don’t like hearing people say great things about the filibuster rule, because the Democrats used the filibuster to defeat conservative judicial nominees when the GOP controlled the White House and the US Senate.

    I hope all of these positive statements about the filibuster will stop when, as I hope, the GOP wins the White House and the US Senate majority back in 2012.

    If not, we don’t stand a chance of preventing a more left-ward drift on the US Supreme Court and the US federal courts of appeals. Because you know darn well that if the Democrats have 41 US Senators in the aftermath of the 2012 elections, they will filibuster any conservative nominee.

    They did it back in the 2003-2004 Senate and they only backed off a little in the 2005-2006 Senate when some Republicans started talking about using the Constitutional Option (nuclear option).

  • lineholder

    When I mute my television, do I hear sound? NO. The intent is the same.

  • brooklyncon

    Sorry, but telling a state newspaper you don’t want a bill in the state assembly (through which the bill must pass to become law) is not support.

    Essentially what Daniels is saying is: “I’d sign right-to work if it got to my desk, but I hope I don’t get the chance to sign it.” And how is that not hostile?

    If he wanted to, he could be criticizing Dems for obstructionism on right-to-work, but instead he is telling papers that he doesn’t want the bill to be debated in the Republican-controlled state House.

    Forget truces, that’s preemptive surrender.

  • LibertarianHawk

    No. It’s just that you’ve focused your attention elsewhere.

    The TV keeps going whether you’re focusing on it or not, line.

    So, no, he’s not telling anybody to shut up. He’s saying that we need to coalesce around a more urgent (though not necessarily more important — there is a difference) matter.

    And the goal is to broaden the political reach — not by moderating any views, but by de-emphasizing them.

  • Spiral

    I think it is just Daniels expressing the fact that his primary focus is on fiscal/economic issues, not social issues.

    Again. I think most Americans and most Republican primary voters agree that elected officials should be primarily focused on jobs, the economy and our unsustainable rate of government spending.

    Notice that he didn’t say, “I am now pro-abortion.” In fact, he told Laura Ingraham that he had a good pro-life record. But he said that his priority is cleaning up our fiscal mess.

    In some sense, it’s just a rhetorical ploy to make him look more moderate than he really is. He’s still pro-life, just as US Senator Phil Gramm was 100 percent pro-life when he told a group of social conservatives, “Hey, I’m not running for preacher.”

  • LibertarianHawk

    He has not said he “hopes he doesn’t get the chance to sign it.”

    That is an completely incorrect summation of his statements on RTW.

    Rather, he thinks that it will blow up the session. And, well, he has things he wants to get done in this session.

    Look at it from the perspective of somebody who puts a higher priority on school vouchers than on RTW. What if you told them “We have a realistic chance to get school vouchers in Indiana…but we need to get RTW passed and that might mean blowing up the session.”

    If he went for RTW, chances are he’d get neither that nor the school voucher program and charter school expansion.

    This is called picking your battles brooklyn….and picking them based on which ones are winnable and which ones aren’t.

  • Spiral

    Isn’t a majority of the State House or the State Senate sufficient for a quorum?

    It seems to me if a majority of both the State House and the State Senate want to pass Right to Work, they should.

  • lineholder

    We’ve got major issues economically, and I’m not going to deny that in the least. But we have plenty of other issues that need to be addressed as well, such as the content of what is being taught in our schools, how that content influences character development in our society, how that character development influences the character of our nation as a whole, etc.

    How long is it going to take before someone is willing to deal with these issues honestly or should we go on forever and day with an attitude of putting them on the back burner?

    If Daniels is addressing the content of what is being taught in the school systems in his state, putting an emphasis on including education that will be of help to the rebuilding of our national character in the long run, then by all means he should make that point plain, proclaiming it at the top of his lungs that he sees it as being an issue that needs to be addressed.

    If he puts it on the back burner now when he has a chance to face it head on, what is to say that he won’t go on putting these kinds of issues on the back burner if he is elected as President?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • lineholder

    at the same time. It all depends on the approach that is taken by the individuals involved.

    That is what doesn’t make sense in this whole idea of a “truce”.

  • LibertarianHawk

    There are enough Senate Republicans to have a quorum without the Democrats. The same is not the case in the House.

    I believe quorum is 2/3.

    A majority of both houses would pass Right-to-Work. On that I have no doubt. Neither do I have any doubt that Daniels would sign it.

    But the House Dems won’t let it through. And they’ve already denied Daniels a quorum once, during the budget battle of 2005.

    Trust me on this: RTW isn’t getting through…and it’s not because of anything Daniels does or doesn’t do. The unions own the Democrats here.

  • LibertarianHawk

    He was speaking of the truce in terms of the national dialogue, not what’s going on in Indiana.

    If Barone’s right and the truce is, really, already in effect in the form of the Tea Party, then I’d say that it has a pretty big accomplishment: the 2010 mid-term election.

  • lineholder

    The word “mute” implies “no voice”. A person who is a mute can not talk, and given the reality that they can not talk, they can not be heard. That’s why the button on the remote control is named “mute”.

    In other words, by implying that social issues should be “muted”, Daniels implies that the voices and concerns of social conservatives should not be heard.

    His words, not mine, LH.

  • LibertarianHawk

    …I’m going to hazard a guess that you won’t find too much to quibble with — very much including his current effort to institute a statewide school voucher program and expand the current charter school program.

    As I’ve said about a dozen times here, I appreciate the sensitivity about a Republican politician talking about the prospect of a “truce.” I appreciate what SoCons have had to put up with from so many Republican pols, including Republican presidents.

    But this isn’t the same thing as Arlen Specter saying that the Republican Party should basically divorce itself of social conservatism.

    Simply put, Mitch Daniels is not an ideological adversary of yours. You should take his comments with that understanding.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    So you just admitted that the Daniels truce will accomplish nothing.

    It’s a sham and I reject it utterly, as well as any candidate for dog catcher, let alone Governor, Senator, or President, who even looks at it kindly.

  • LibertarianHawk

    (I forget which one) recently said that Daniels’ weakness right now is that he’s “everybody’s 2nd or 3rd choice.”

    While that’s obviously not literally true, to the extent there is some grain of truth there, I’d say it’s not a bad place to be….particularly considering that he’s undeclared as a candidate.

    The field is so wide open that being an “acceptable consensus candidate” might just be enough.

    Like you, I agree that Romney will be hobbled, probably fatally, for his healthcare reform in Mass. Healthcare will be a huge issue in 2012 and I have a hard time seeing somebody with Romney’s record on the issue being the GOP standard-bearer.

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    Yes, McCain won the nomination by downplaying social principles and now he leads the group of soon to be retired has beens. The nomination is simply not enough. Daniels must fire up the base not suppress it by attacking it.

  • eburke

    Look, when Mitch made his first comments about the ‘truce’, I pretty much just blew them off as being uttered without thinking or just phrased poorly. I actually chastised some people for reading too much into them.

    But his comments to Ingraham proved me wrong. Despite what LH says downthread, telling me to call a truce…mute myself…or shut up…are all distinctions w/out a difference. You’ve basically said that this set of issues should not be discussed.

    That’s BS on several levels. First of all, the vast majority of SoCons are also FisCons. Second, even if they weren’t, why would you pick a fight with a loyal block of your voters? Would *you* like it if *I* said we should call a truce/mute yourself w/regard to fiscal issues because the deaths of 50+ million children since Roe v Wade was the only issue we should be focusing on?

    Daniels, and others, have poked a huge segment of our Party in the eye, and considering that the SoCons have been mostly focused on FisCon issues as well the last few years, they did it with absolutely no reason.

    It’s like me telling you your sister is ugly when we were talking about fixing the fence in your backyard. Of course you’re going to get pissed about even though that wasn’t even what we were talking about. And now, instead of talking about fixing your fence so all your animals don’t escape, we’re arguing about your sister.

    And, to carry the analogy further, I would then tell you that you need to stop arguing w/me about your sister’s looks when we’ve got a fence to fix. Hell’s bells, we wouldn’t have even been talking about your sister if I hadn’t brought her up and insulted her.

    Mitch Daniel’s is at best either politically tone deaf, or he’s a political idiot. Whichever it is…if he runs, he won’t be getting my support in the primaries.

  • LibertarianHawk

    But I think he’s trying to expand the potential horizon of a mandate to really tackle the fiscal problem head-on.

    If you read between the lines of the Weekly Standard interview where he first floated the idea of a truce, he suggested that the situation of the moment is probably going to require a bigger coalition than what the Republican Party as presently constituted could hope to muster.

    Yes, it’s unconventional — unprecedented, really. But I think he’s onto something….so long as he can convince SoCons that he’s not their enemy.

    Maybe he can’t, I don’t know. But I think they should try harder to keep their knees from jerking when they hear something they haven’t heard before.

  • eburke
  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    Funny how Finrod tell me not to say they started it and then his next post quickly moves to declare that social conservatives started it.

    Finrod is reading from the GOProud version of events. You will find no news story other than the one released by GOProud that Liberty University engaged in a boycott of them at CPAC. It simply did not happen. Breitbart allowed the lie to be propagated on his website and refused to do basic journalism to make sure he had the truth.

    I assume since Finrod has dropped the original charge against me that the “agressive statements” against Breitbart and GOProud have proven correct. Should I expect a retraction as he demanded of me? Perhaps a thank you?

  • LibertarianHawk

    Let me put it to you this way…

    Would you see a difference between you refusing to watch, say, Keith Olbermann….and making a play to bar Keith Olbermann from being on TV at all?

    If I mute Keith Olbermann, or better yet, don’t tune in his show at all, I’m not stopping him from speaking his mind.

    I’m just not listening to him and, instead, focusing on other things.

    See the difference?

  • lineholder

    Daniels is approaching the school system in the state as an economic issue, which is fine. However, he could also be evaluating the content of what is being taught in the school system at the same time. How are the students doing on learning basic skills, such as math, reading, science, etc.

    Along with this, he could evaluate how well they are being taught basic life principles that they carry with them their entire lives, such as initiative, determination, perseverance, loyalty, confidence, integrity, honesty, and a whole list of other things. Do you know how many of our young people have no idea at all of what these simple principles and concepts truly mean? Go out and ask them what initiative is or what prudence is, LH. There’s a huge, HUGE opportunity here that could very much so to our benefit in the long run.

    These concepts that I mentioned directly relate to human qualities that can and do contribute to our society as a whole. On this basis, would he gain genuine interest from social conservatives? You bet he would, because these precepts are necessary to the preservation of our nation.

    But what he has done at this point is to clump ALL social concerns into categories such as prolife vs. abortion, gay vs. traditional marriage, etc., without seeing the potential of addressing other concerns that could conceivably gain him public support from social conservatives as well as liberatarians and independents.

    And it isn’t entirely necessary to approach that way, LH. He could gain more support by being more open-minded in how he is approaching the situation, but he’s making comments such as “truce” and “mute” instead.

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    Mitch Daniels wants to call a truce on social issues. Why? The population overwhelming supports social conservative issues. More than 51% oppose abortions and an even more dramatic number opposes the federal funding of abortions. Why a truce here? Ovewhelming majorities oppose same-sex marriage. These majorities include African Americans and Hispanics. I thought we wanted to reach out to these groups. Why not reach out on the social conservative issues we share?

    What about social issues like public health care? Is that not a liberal social position – a right in some areas? Do we need a truce on that one?

  • LibertarianHawk

    He has not been unfriendly to the SoCon agenda. Quite the contrary.

    Really, the people who should actually be more wary of this are social moderates and libs….as they’d justifiably consider him a wolf in sheep’s clothing (from their perspective, that is).

    Look, we’re all free to support whomever we want. And if you don’t like what he’s talking about, then support somebody else. That’s what primaries are all about.

    All I’m asking is that people don’t confuse him with one of these northeastern liberal Republicans who just wish that social conservatives would go away.

    That has not, at all, been the way he’s governed when pen met paper.

    His point had to do with rising to the present circumstances with our country’s finances…and needing as large a coalition as possible in order to successfully do it.

    Take that point or leave it. But, at least, understand it.

  • LibertarianHawk

    He has. And my heart sunk into my stomach when I heard it.

    It’s worth pointing out, though, that he was talking about it in the context of a major rewrite of the income tax (including flattening it).

    Frankly, if we could wipe the slate clean with federal taxes and start from scratch, I’d probably prefer a tax based one way or another on consumption than one based on income.

    Here’s a link:

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/43648.html

    Say what you want about Gov. Daniels. But he’s not one to sugarcoat anything for the purposes of campaigning. If people are looking for a candidate who will only say things they want to hear, and disregard the harsh reality of what we’re facing, they’ll need to look elsewhere.

  • eburke

    The analogy holds no water because you’re personalizing the decision to watch Olberman. Daniel’s, and the other libertarians that started this tussle, are asking an entire *party* to stop discussing social issues. So you *are* asking me to stop speaking my mind.

    Here’s what really tees me off on this whole gig, LH. Explain to me why, if most SoCons are also FisCons, and if the SoCons weren’t pushing their issues to start with, why do Daniels and the libertarians insist on continuing to bring this issue up. THEY’RE GETTING WHAT THEY WANT ANYWAY!!!! (and yes I’m screaming).

    They have unnecessarily picked a fight w/the SoCon wing of our Party for no freaking reason whatsoever at a time when we need all hands on deck to beat Obama in 2012. And then THEY have the audacity to tell the SoCons that they need to be team players about this. So they throw the first, unprovoked punch and then tell the SoCons to just take it.

    WTF is that?

  • LibertarianHawk

    To broaden the scope of a possible governing coalition, arranged around a mandate to tackle our perilous fiscal condition.

    As much as I wish that the traditional trilateral conservative movement had the numbers to do this on our own, I fear we don’t. In fact, I’m relatively certain we don’t.

    So he’s trying to remove other matters that divide people in order to, hopefully, construct a new coalition around a singular purpose.

  • Spiral

    That is disappointing. He’s not going to rack up many GOP primary victories with statements like those.

    I guess I’m in the hunt for a candidate to support again.

  • LibertarianHawk

    To have a hope of doing what I think he wants to do, he’ll need a coalition that expands beyond the traditional conservative reach.

    People need to sign onto it in large enough numbers to minimize the prospect of demagoguery sinking any chances of policy success.

  • LibertarianHawk

    But then it dawned on me that, more than likely, we’re looking at higher taxes in the future no matter who gets elected.

    I hope I’m wrong. But I’m not hopeful that I’m wrong. :(

  • Aaron Gardner
  • LibertarianHawk

    And that’s the point.

    Beating Obama is one thing. Repairing our burgeoning fiscal catastrophe is something else.

    We’re not going to be able to do it with the traditional trilateral conservative base. We need to get more people into the fold.

    Not by surrendering our values, but by focusing on a common purpose.

    It’s the Tea Party, formalized as a governing coalition. Think of it that way.

    Has the Tea Party ever told SoCons that they need to shut up and go away? No. But social issues are not what has motivated the Tea Party movement.

  • lineholder

    it is not heard.

    Look, it may have just been a bad choice of words on Daniels part to use the word “mute”, but what he has conveyed, implied and insinuated to social conservatives is that he isn’t willing to listen or to hear their concerns.

    It would be simple enough to correct if he said, “Hey, that isn’t really what I meant”, but so far, that isn’t happening, LH. There is nothing about the way that he has responded to this that inspires social conservatives to have any confidence in him.

    If he succeeds in inspiring our confidence, our boots will be on the ground in GOTV efforts. But without it….

  • Spiral

    Sorry. But you don’t get people supporting a campaign like that. I would bet that there are Republican candidates for president who could say, honestly, that there is no need to increase taxes. We simply need to spend the way we spent in 2006, plus some entitlement reform.

    Paul Ryan has the right idea. But any Republican, including Mitch Daniels, who puts tax increases on the table as a means of reducing the deficit, should not get the GOP nomination.

    Otherwise, we might as well nominate Bob Dole for president again.

  • LibertarianHawk

    Let me ask you this….

    Would you avoid anything to do with the Tea Party, simply because it’s a fiscally-oriented, rather than socially-oriented, movement?

    The Tea Party has no central social theme. I’m relatively sure there are pro-choice people who identify with the movement. I’m relatively sure there are pro-gay marriage people who do as well.

    While I’m sure they’re a minority in the movement, it really hasn’t mattered one way or another. And that’s because abortion and gay marriage aren’t what have animated the movement.

  • runner12

    statement, but when he doubled down to the “mute” issue I began to take notice and be a little wary. His wishy-washy stance on right-to-work enhanced my wariness.
    I just got through reading Jindal’s book and he has an excellent chapter in the book called “It’s the Culture, Stupid.” This is a governor who has spent a lot of time of fiscal issues and realizes that our mounting debt must be addressed. Yet he also realizes that fixing the economy and addressing the debt will not solve all of our ills. We must be a culture that values life, individual liberty, personal responsibility, compassion, integrity, and limited government. These are Judao-Christian values that have built this country. This does not mean that all people must be Christians in this country, it simply means that they have to believe in the common values espoused in the Judao-Christian traditions (as mentioned above). Backing off of your values does not make you a pragmatist, it makes you look weak (no matter what the poltical types tell you).

    The fiscal issues may be our primary concern right now, but that does not mean that we ignore the social ills. The two are interconnected and can be addressed simultanuously. One cannot be sacrificed for the other. This is a fine line to walk and we must continously ask ourselves if one his taking precedence over the other. If we do that, we will be successful at restoring this country.

  • Scope

    and with respect to your same sex marriage question, if God agreed with two mommies or two daddies, he would have designed both sexes to carry and give birth to a child.

  • LibertarianHawk

    Ultimately, the essence of his point is merely that we can’t allow other deep and long-held divisions to prevent us from tackling what he (rightly, IMO) sees as an existential fiscal problem for our country.

    Yeah, we’re divided over abortion, marriage, family, immigration, etc. No, those issues aren’t going to just go away. Yes, they matter immensely.

    But our house is currently burning down. And we need to get people focused, for the time being, on extinguishing it before the house is gone. Or else, those issues truly will go away. We won’t have the luxury of worrying ourselves about whether gays should be allowed to marry.

    I appreciate what you’re saying. Really, I do. But I’m not sure his message here has come across as he intended — which is his own fault.

    But, as I said elsewhere, he’s not one to sugarcoat anything for short-term political gain. We’re in an extremely dire situation and he’s treating it like an extremely dire situation.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Try to do this without redifining any more words too. Mute =/= Deaf, no matter how loud you say it.

    The subtraction is when disenfranchised socons decide to stay home rather than support someone who is telling them to remain muted.

    As far as your ramblings about the trilateral coalition not being enough to secure the win, again, prove it. When is the last time the trilateral coalition was appealed to in full and what did it result in?

    As far as 2010 goes, and the success of the Tea Party movement, what type of people did they elect? How many of those same people were endorsed by SBA list?

    You want to act like the socons had no effect on 2010 when that is a demonstrable lie, surely unintentional.

    You said above that Daniels doesn’t sugarcoat for electoral gain, yet you implore us all to understand that his strategy of muting social issues is nothing more that an attempt to bring more people into the party by avoiding the divisive issues. So which is it, is he surgarcoating for electoral gain, or is he telling socons to shut up for real? Can’t be both.

  • powertothepeople

    as to what you are talking about and the pathetic nonsense you repeated is as absurd as it comes.

    Point by Point breakdown of your nonsense:

    Daniels does not have the market cornered on Independents, period. I could care less who you know, you do not know enough to in any way show a majority would vote for him. To say so really shows your pathetic attempt to push your candidate of choice rather than being honest about them. Sort of akin to a Palin fan saying polls on independents do not matter as she has them in the bag. This kind of comment would have been nearly as stupid as yours.

    You are absolutely correct that we must have independents to win and had you stopped there you would have made yourself appear intelligent, but you had to keep talking. You are yet another idiot who wants all social issues thrown out of the party so you make some idiotic statement such as “anyone who thinks beating the drum on social issues will help win them over is similarly delusional.” Now I would really like you to go on record stating that independents or even a majority of independents could care less about social issues such as gay marriage, abortion, and the other similar type social issues. Is that what you are saying? Independents do not want to deal with social issues, do not hold strong feelings about social issues, and or that independents do not want leaders who care about those social issues? HINT: In order to not make a moronic statement and to not further embarrass yourself, this is the point of the conversation where you just do not answer and simply slink off hoping we will all forget the nonsense you posted by the time you post again. Lets see if you can take the advice or further embarrass yourself.

  • LibertarianHawk

    He’s not a candidate you should be terribly wary of. Believe me.

    No, he isn’t Rick Santorum. But I’d say his record on social issues is far less checkered and varied than John McCain’s or Mitt Romney’s. And he certainly isn’t an Arlen Specter type Republican.

    His simple point is that we’ve got an urgent matter on our hands that is going to need some extraordinarily difficult policy prescriptions…..and, well, they just don’t have too much to do with abortion.

    If you can support the basically social-policy-free Tea Party, then you should be able to have no problem with Gov. Daniels….particularly considering his record WRT life issues and such.

  • eburke

    Which is – since SoCon issues have been on the back burner since The One got elected, why the need for Mitch, GOP Proud, and a raft of other libertarians both on and off this site to bring this up at all?

    As I said upthread, this is like you and I finding out your fence is down and all your animals are escaping, and right in the middle of discussing the urgent need to get your fence back up, I look and you and say “Oh, and btw, your sister’s uglier than your dog.”

    You’d rightly take offense at that and then find it rather incongrous for me to then tell you, while you’re defending your sisters honor, that we need to not discuss that anymore because we need to fix your fence.

    Again…please explain to me why they felt/feel the need to unnecessarily piss of a huge chunk of our base. Bob McDonnell managed to focus laser-like during his gubernatorial campaign on fiscal issues w/out alienating the SoCons in the state even though he’s ardently pro-life (sound familiar?). Why? Because he wasn’t stupid enough, or uncaring enough, or self-centered enuf to poke the SoCons in the eye while building a broad-based coalition.

    Why is this so difficult to grasp…and why won’t libertarians or Daniel supporters ever admit that they’re the ones that started this little kerfluffle instead of blaming the people they unnecessarily offended for taking offense?

  • lineholder

    I can respect that he is looking at the economic situation from this viewpoint, but it really disturbs me that he seems to be so closed-minded in his approach. He could be resolving both economic and social issues AT THE SAME TIME, if he would only open his mind and see the opportunity presented to him.

    The house is burning, and we do need to put out the fire, but if the people don’t have the character qualities or strengths to rebuild and repair the damage that has been done, where does that leave us?

  • LibertarianHawk

    And might point out that when Ryan was asked about running for president, he demurred and said he was intrigued by Daniels.

    As much as I’d love to see Ryan’s roadmap enacted into law, I’m not holding my breath. We can’t even get too many elected Republicans on board with it.

    As Kevin Williamson (a writer I’m really, really coming to appreciate, BTW) has said, it’s too much to hope for that the fiscal gap we’ve got will be completely filled in with reduced expenditures.

    Our taxes are going to be going up. And Daniels is not the kind of guy who will campaign promising not to raise taxes and then do it once in office.

    Maybe that’s politically stupid. But, to me, it’s refreshingly honest.

    Whether Obama wins in 2012 or the Republican, I’m pretty confident we’re going to be seeing broadly higher taxes.

    Don’t take that as an endorsement as much as a realistic lament. Things are that bad and we’re not going to get enough cuts to cover the entire shortfall.

    Even Sen. Corker’s recent bill about a spending cap assumes spending at around 20% of GDP. That would necessitate higher taxes, if you’re paying closer attention.

  • Finrod

    The very fact that I can quote you GOProud’s legislative priorities (which look awfully conservative to me) and you immediately respond declaring them liberals of any form means that you’re completely demented and I am not going to bother with anything you say.

  • Spiral

    there might not be any coalition to do much of anything.

    This reminds me more and more of Bob Dole’s political philosophy: I know how to “get things done.” But this assumed that the voters didn’t care exactly what was done. Just that something got done. Be it tax increases or spending cuts.

    That’s just not going to motivate people.

    At first, I wanted to cut Daniels a break on the social issues “truce.” But when you add in his “maybe a VAT” and “maybe an oil tax” discussion, you get the feeling like he just sees himself as someone who’s supposed to cut deals in Washington DC with all the big power brokers.

    That’s not what I want in a president. I want someone who can say, “This is the direction I want to go.”

    Obviously once you get to Washington DC, you have to compromise. You aren’t going to be able to get all your campaign promises enacted because you have other politicians elected on other platforms whom you must work with. But I don’t like the way Daniels is drifting.

    Jim Inhofe for President!!!

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    If you’re going to rattle of insults, find another thread, Finrod.

  • aesthete

    is resolved in large part by expanding vouchers: given that religious schools have an advantage in this area, an expanded voucher system is a de facto move towards more religion in schools. At any rate, Daniels did found a “Christ-centered” school, The Oaks Academy, with his own money, so take what you will from that.

    Just my personal opinion, but I find it rather creepy when pols start talking about how much of a personal interest they take in children and their development: maybe it’s just that this group tends to be more progressive (think “it takes a village”), but I find it inappropriate when pols seem to be establishing themselves, rather than the parents, as moral authorities we should listen to concerning prudence, restraint, etc. For all that I say about Palin, I am very glad that she hasn’t decided that she wants to tell me how to raise my (purely hypothetical) kids.

  • lineholder

    on this one. I strongly suspect that GOProud and some other parties have no illusions about the direction that the wind is blowing at the moment, politically, but they are tying their cause to the party that they believe will honor their special interests after the elections.

  • LibertarianHawk

    That’s not too hard to admit — it’s a simple fact.

    But he certainly didn’t intend it as the poke-in-the-eye you’re taking it as.

    He said we should put down our swords for a moment on matters not related to the debt and deficit, cobble together the biggest coalition we can muster to attack it, and then resume those other debates when we’ve gotten it taken care of.

    I don’t see that as a poke-in-the-eye at all. It’s just recognizing what is existentially urgent at the present time….as well as recognizing that the traditional conservative coalition won’t be able to tackle the problem on its own (and, let’s face it, we’re not going to win over any liberals…who are probably just fine with the USA imploding).

  • aesthete

    both have some pretty outstanding records on abortion and gay marriage.

  • BigRedConservative

    between (say) repealing Obamacare and compromising on abortion, I’d go with repealing Obamacare.

    Of course, in an ideal world we could have our cake and eat it too, but it’s one or the other in D.C.

    Unfortunately…

  • LibertarianHawk

    Non social-conservatives, that is.

    His calculation, right or wrong, is that we’ll need bigger numbers if we’re to have any hope of weathering what’s going to prove a very, very difficult political storm.

    Now, there’s some hope in the form of the Bowles-Simpson commission’s recommendations….which won the support of Senators as diverse as Tom Coburn and Dick Durbin. So maybe we can get the political mass to address all this.

    But Daniels seems to doubt it.

    And it’s worth pointing out that, as political director in the Reagan White House, part of his job was to “whip” the Congress to move the Reagan agenda. So he has some experience here.

  • LibertarianHawk

    ….does not equal sugar-coating. It’s just avoiding divisive issues.

    I really think that the grassroots model for what he’s talking about is the Tea Party.

    Yeah, everybody still had their social views…nobody was asked to give them up. But nor was anybody denied admission because of their feelings on abortion or gay marriage.

  • aesthete

    Reagan, the 1994 Revolution, and other such movements have been unsuccessful mostly because while conservatives are animated, they aren’t sufficient to single-handedly influence the electorate. Adding libertarians and moderates whose mushiness tends toward spending restraint is a good idea because it affords us the political muscle to make the changes necessary. This requires downplaying certain controversial parts of our agenda *at present*. Should it be that way? No; I’m not a social conservative and I get along well enough with socons to reduce government. However, not every moderate, fiscon, or libertarian is like me, especially post-Bush (which was a disaster for conservatives on small government issues). It is, though, and we need to deal with that.

    Likewise, I think that if we ever got an opportunity to implement a Human Life Amendment, it might be wise to downplay our fiscon and small-government creds, because it might turn off moderates who, like Huckabee, are repelled by a “heartless” small government agenda, but who would support us on life issues. It’s all about what can be done, and whether we can hold the line when we try to do these things.

  • LibertarianHawk

    It’s certainly not the way people traditionally run for president — not, anyway, before primary season is even underway. That’s why part of me thinks that he’s not even going to run. Because, if he is, then he’s doing some very unorthodox things — particularly for a Republican prospect.

    But, then, that’s kinda why I like him, too. There’s no BS there. He’s never been one for promising the moon and delivering Hoboken.

    All I know is that he’s been a damned fine governor, he’s cut costs and done so not simply by slashing-and-burning but by taking creative approaches to changing government…and because I think he genuinely understands where we are fiscally and what it’s going to take to right the ship.

    We could do a lot worse….and probably will.

  • lineholder

    has been primarily progressive, aesthete, and we are reaping the seed that has been sown by their efforts. It’s doing our society a lot of harm rather than good.

    Look, I’ve said this before, but in case other people missed it, I see human character development as one of THE most fascinating subjects on the face of this earth. There are SO-O-O-O many opportunities in this area that exist, and for the most part, it will depend on the approach that conservatives take from this point forward to play a more proactive role in the content of that education.

    Do I want government and politicians to completely and totally have the responsibility of education regarding character development? NO, I don’t. However, what I do think is that if we are going to continue to invest public funds in education, our nation would be better served to emphasize the development of these kinds of human qualities than it would be to spend money on programs sponsored by Planned Parenthood and the like.

  • Spiral

    Here’s why I say that.

    If we are really serious about closing the budget deficit on both a short term and long term basis, we will have to tackle entitlement programs and the unsustainable spending on those programs.

    Now, let’s take some Republican US Congressman from a marginally Republican congressional district. Let’s say he’s worried about winning reelection every two years because his seat isn’t one of those “safe” seats.

    Either you can get this Republican to vote for reducing the rate of growth in Medicare or you can’t.

    Either you can get this Republican to vote for reducing the rate of growth in Social Security or you can’t.

    Either you can get this Republican to vote for reducing the rate of growth in Medicaid or you can’t.

    Now, if you can get this Republican Congressman to vote for these “cuts” (not cuts really, just reductions in the rate of growth in spending), then you can do what you need to do without raising taxes.

    Now, if Congress is unwilling to control entitlement spending, yes. Then tax increases would be necessary. But if Congress is unwilling to control entitlement spending, we might as well default on our national debt right now. The spending increases are just way too rapid.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    Finrod you looked at their legislative priorities. Is the repeal of DADT and support for same-sex marriage not socially liberal issues? If they no longer support same-sex marriage then they have altered their position recently, as the links I provided earlier will show.

  • lineholder

    in the wrong direction, LH. It is far more likely to be social conservatives who will dig in deep and play a proactive role in the rebuilding process.

  • aesthete

    Autocrats — religious and otherwise — do just what you’ve described. Religion has very little to do with it: happens just as much in Catholic Latin America as in Buddhist Asia, Muslim ME, and atheistic USSR and China. The defining feature is not religion: it is the promise of other people’s life, liberty, and property for you to dispose of, in the pursuit of “the greater good” or “collective rights”.

  • LibertarianHawk

    And if he does somehow win the nomination? You going to Obama’s camp?

    You asked what the truce has accomplished and I told you: the 2010 election result….which was largely driven, IMO, by the original embodiment of the truce, aka the Tea Party.

    We’re all free to support whomever we like. That’s what primaries are all about, after all. I’m looking for a candidate, primarily, in whom I can be confident will correct our potentially fatal fiscal imbalance.

    Everything else seems like it can wait.

  • brooklyncon

    Fact 1: Daniels said ?I don?t want to see [the right-to-work bill] in this General Assembly?

    Fact 2: A prerequisite for the bill to make it to his desk is that it must come up in the General Assembly.

    Spin it however you want and say it’s a question of picking battles, but I think “hostile” is a fair summary. He could have kept his mouth shut and just said “it’s good policy and I’ll sign it if it makes it to my desk” but instead he went on record opposing it even coming up.

  • LibertarianHawk

    I tend to think we’re not going to be able to get the kinds of cuts we’d need to avoid raising taxes. In fact, I’d be willing to wager a large sum of money to that end — and I’m not a gambling man.

    This isn’t an either/or situation. I’d say there’s something approaching a 100% likelihood that we’re going to be seeing both cuts in spending (services/benefits, etc.) and higher net taxes.

    Again, go look at Corker’s recent spending cap bill. I’m all for it — but even it targets the spending cap at 20% GDP. The average tax revenues for the last 35 years or so has been a shade higher than 18% GDP.

    In other words, Corker is, in the process of proposing a spending cap, also forecasting a broad tax increase.

    I hope it’s not coming. But I’d be floored if it wasn’t, alas.

  • powertothepeople

    so your hypothetical question to Neil is pointless and does not need answered.

    Daniel is done, will not even get out of the gate. See the one thing most of your anti socon folks forget is that fiscal only are not the biggest group in the party. In fact you are no where near the biggest part. It is socons that hold the biggest sway and for Daniels to do what he has done will ensure that we unite against him and make sure he is not our nominee. We have no issue with fiscal being the forefront of ones campaign, we also recognize the fact this country is in fiscal trouble, but we also refuse to support anyone who thinks we need to move to the back or shut up, which is what Daniel thinks, and you all keep pushing us, and we will push back and you will not like the results. Socons may have many different groups and beliefs, but we make up the majority of this party and we are tired of being told by you and others like you to stay silent, shut up, keep our beliefs to ourselves, etc. You know, sleeping giant and all…………..

  • LibertarianHawk

    He’s not putting confidence in one direction or the other. He’s trying to people on both sides of the social divide together to tackle the fiscal problems.

    Haven’t I made that clear yet? I realize you don’t think it will do that, and I appreciate that. But that is what he’s after, I think.

    Of course he’ll need social conservatives. His point — correctly or incorrectly — is that’s not enough.

  • LibertarianHawk

    Just out of curiosity?

    Or Bush, for that matter, after he said that the country wasn’t ready to outlaw abortion?

    I think it would be pluperfectly stupid for social conservatives to Shanghai a candidate who has a solid record on their issues. But, then, that’s just me.

    I’ll just repeat it again: social conservatives need to do a better job distinguishing true foes from friends engaging in calculated political strategery.

    Oh, and BTW, I’m not an “anti socon folk” — or, at least, I don’t consider myself such. I’ve had it out with the esteemed Mr. Stevens on this point recently and don’t care to do it again.

    But, if you see me as a foe, I’ll just refer you to what I said a couple paragraphs up.

  • LibertarianHawk

    He didn’t misspeak when he said what he did about the truce. In fact, he’s said on several occasions that it’s something he’s put a lot of thought into.

    He’s never been one to come crawling for mercy when he ruffles somebody’s feathers — particularly when he had no intention of ruffling their feathers.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    He may have Stockholm Syndrome on this but he’s not on their side. :)

  • LibertarianHawk

    But only because he has things he wants to pass and it jeopardizes those things.

    It would be a different story if Republicans could form a quorum on their own, but they can’t.

    If we call vouchers issue #1 and RTW issue #2, I think Daniels would rather go 1-for-2 than 0-for-2. He thinks those are his choices, and I suspect he’s right.

    If RTW gets brought to the floor of the House, the session will be over with neither RTW or vouchers winning passage. That just wouldn’t be very smart, IMO.

    Maybe you think it would.

  • lineholder

    for your explanantions on Daniels’ position.

    Right now, I’m looking for someone who is a bit more open-minded in their approach to the situation on all fronts. I want someone I can put MY confidence in, LH, and I just don’t think Daniels is that person.

    But I do want to thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

  • eburke

    a coalition which won by 20 points, including 2-1 independents, without ever starting a war with members of his own party?

    When social issues came up, he simply said “I am proudly pro-life and pro-traditional marriage. Now let’s talk about the fiscal mess that Virginia’s in.”

    How the hell do you guys expect to win when you continually piss off a good half of the people that you need to win? What kind of ‘coalition’ is that?

  • jerry39

    No one is “denied admission” because they diverge on a particular issue. But they shouldn’t be running the show if their stated intent is to ignore a core constituency, I dont care how many pro-abortion R’s vote for a R because of fiscal issues. I dont care how many pro-big government R’s for an R because of social issues.

    But you don’t let the “Pork Cabin Republicans” sponsor the Club for Growth.

    You dont create a big tent by knocking one of the tent-poles down,

    And “avoiding divisive issues” is a doublespeak cheap parlor trick for moral relativists seekng the stats quo on abortion – which is exactly the same position the left holds.

    Every issue is divisive when it gets down to brass tacks. Obama isnt a conservative because he has talked about “getting government out of the way of small business.” McCain wasnt conservative becuase he did that joke about spending like drunken sailors 2000 times.

    It’s real easy to see unity in a lot of fiscal/size of government issues after 2 years of Obama, Pelosi, Reid. But when it gets to brass tacks, how many R’s voted for Tarp? How many R’s running in 2008 were all about doing somethig about Global Warming, just not as big as the D’s wanted? How many R’s jumped on the bandwagon to interfere with individual bonus contracts when they bailed out Wallstreet, and found out Execs would still get bonuses? How about comprehensive immigration reform? Did we have unity there?

    Every issue is divisive, to call out abortion is a fallacy.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    There is a reality called the great recession and the re-education of many that now drink tea that liberal dem policies fail. But the 2010 wave had nothing to do with an fiscal-social paradigm.

    Yes, some libertarians and tea partiers that just now got it, came out big in 2010, but so-cons got it (social, econ and nat sec) long ago. Welcome to all that vote GOP, the pro-life party 24/7 with no truces.

    We can walk and chew gum. Don’t buy the libe dem press tactic of trying to make an issue of “what’s most important”?

  • aesthete

    Certainly I could agree with your description of American morality and society are heavily influenced by concepts within what is typically called the Christian tradition. I would even append the fact that churches were a clearinghouse for political discussion, the impact of Calvinist thought on prosperity, etc.

    My question is, what is the relevance of that historical fact to modern conservatism, or governance in general? Law-making based on Christian sectarian principles? Clearly not, since American tradition has shied away from that, given that this is what they tried to escape in Europe. Superiority of Christians in the body politic over non-Christians? Again, no: our system was not designed to allow that. Simple acknowledgement? I’m down with that. A rational basis to allow churches to participate in the public sphere? Sure, but allusion to the FIrst Am would be more useful, methinks. I guess I don’t understand how the fact is useful or what actions it is supposed to condone or condemn in modern politics.

  • eburke

    “He said we should put down our swords for a moment on matters not related to the debt and deficit, cobble together the biggest coalition we can muster to attack it, and then resume those other debates when we?ve gotten it taken care of.”

    He said we should call a truce on social issues. If he’d have said this the first time, or when Ingraham asked him about it (which it was I thought he was smart enuf to do) then there probably wouldn’t have been this big of an uproar.

    In fact, not even what you said needs to be said. It’s what’s been going on de facto for the last 2 years. Again, I could’ve understood the libertarian fiscons bringing this up if I saw Dobson et al in the last 2 years insisting that we address social issues NOW and to the exclusion of all else. BUT THEY HAVEN’T BEEN.

    So, again, please explain the need for them to bring this up at all? The liberals couldn’t have come up with a better way to fracture us if they’d have tried. Again, how would you have reacted if Mike Huckabee (who, btw, I detest) would’ve stood up and said “We need to call a truce on fiscal issues so that we can focus on the moral rot in our country because without it, getting our fiscal house in order won’t matter.”

    Seriously!

    And ftr…I’m not a SoCon. I won’t support in a primary someone who’s not fiscally conservative any more than I will someone who’s pro-abortion. So the reason *I’m* hacked is because the fiscon/libertarian wing of OUR party decided to unnecessarily enrage a very necessary part of our coalition for reasons I can’t begin to fathom.

    If they need a role model on how to do this, I’d suggest they get in contact with Bob McDonnell, Governor of the state of Virginia. Otherwise, if they’d just shut up, those of us who believe we do best when we UNITE all the facets of the coalition would be most appreciative.

  • powertothepeople

    and first and foremost, I consider no republican my foe, I simply stated that we will not be quiet, stop pushing social issues, nor will we support a guy who tells us to quiet up. I could care less how he votes, the simply fact he has tried to push a “truce” when in fact it is more akin to tape over our mouths, in my eyes disqualifies him from my support.

    But to answer your questions:

    McCain won because of our inept ability to put up anyone good, the fact the country was so anti republican (and for good reason) and because of the lethargic mindset so many of us were in including socons. Put the race today, he does not even place in the top 5.

    Bush, while I love Bush for what he did for this countries safety and a few other things, he misled all sides as to his socon standing and his fiscal standing. And the statement you refer to is a little misleading if we are looking at the same one he made during his campaign and shortly after. Taken in context, he was referring to a question posed to him by a preacher out of Texas and meant that abortion as a whole would not be banned nor would the country support it. He was not referring to abortion on demand, but to all types of abortion. And he was and still is right, people are not going to ban all abortions even if it is the best thing to do.

    What I am saying is simple. There has been a push, a strong push, to make socons quiet down. You may not be in that boat, but you are pushing a candidate that is and some of the things you say come off as being that way. We all know fiscal issues are killing us, but so are social issues as well. And to take it a step further, social issues we dislike are wasting a ton of tax money as well which should make them a priority for you as well. How many billions go into funding abortion, researching gay marriage, pushing for gay marriage, stem cell research when nothing has come from it in 30 plus years all while great leaps and bounds have come from adult stem cell research, etc. And if the ficons continue to push us into a corner with trucers like Daniel or making GOProud speeches a forefront of the conversation, we will push back and what you will get is a Palin type nominee who is a socon but has shown herself to not be a fiscal conservative in her few years as gov. And this is one socon who does not want to see her as the nominee.

    My basic point is this, we can have a socon who is a ficon as well. We have not had a true mix in many many years. But just as much as fiscal issues must be very important to the next nominee, so do social issues. They can be intertwined, but in our opinion, can not be separated. We are not looking for a Bible thumping radical, but we can not nor will we support a trucer who is not willing to make social issues and equal part of their campaign nor will we support a person who is big on social issues but poor on fiscal issues. We need, no we must have both.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • jerry39

    Where are these vast numbers of “moderates” who are so passionate about abortion that they will vote Democrat even though they are fiscally conservative? Your not one, acat’s not one, I dont think Hawk is one? But you all talk about them as this huge mass of people just waiting to jump into the party as soon as we agree to throw the babies out with the bathwater.

    I mean we can pretty easily log a few million pro-lifers who wil work hard for a pro-life candidate, and who may not show up for the pro-abort “fiscal conservative.” You have to at least have some demonstrable proof that you pick up enough “mushy moderates” to justfy pissing offf millions of pro-lifers?

    Its not the tea partiers I have met, I can tell you that. Of course not all as pro-life as I am, but I havent met any that are so pro-abortion they will vote for the socialist again?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    that he won’t explain in more detail. sad
    Not presidential material.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Scope

    Ron Paul when he accused those against the GZM of demagoguery, and also recommended that they just shut up already. He used a play on words in saying that the demagogues were fiddling while the economy burns. It is the same as saying that the SoCons are fiddling while the economy burns. Just as Ron Paul thinks there is no danger from the radical islamists, so to do the libertarians think there is no danger in allowing the Liberals to own the social positions. The Liberals don’t ever take a vacation from pushing their social agenda, yet, some like Daniels want to allow them to keep on keeping on, while we sit back and just shut up about it.

    I have a suggestion for the libertarians. Instead of working so hard to change the Republican Party, and choosing to ignore the Republican Party platform, why don’t you guys go over to the Libertarian party, and drive their agenda, grow their numbers, and stop trying to redefine the conservative agenda to.

  • jerry39

    and we know what it means. Thats why the knees jerk.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    The Dems are perfectly willing to nominate an unknown that they fall in love with in Iowa or NH and the Media is active 24/7 every day of every year, making celebrities of so many and if an unknown emerges, they will build them up.

    The GOP seems to always nominate the next in line. And for the first time it occurs to me that one of the reasons is that the MSM doesn’t make celebrities of our conservatives. They suck up to the moderates that end up not being able to win.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    other factors:

    1-recession
    2-historical aversion of us to more than two terms of same party
    3-bush weakness
    4-bush was not a movement conservative that built the party
    5-mccain – see 3 and 4
    6mccain refused to fight obama
    7-financial crisis blunder
    8-

  • aesthete

    It’s about priorities. There aren’t too many single-issue voters on abortion one way or another: Bob McDonnell did fine in VA without rejecting his social conservatism. There are, OTOH, many voters who will not support a candidate who would push social conservatism without cutting government. There’s some validity to this: whenever conservatives or moderates would critique the Bush admin on fiscal issues, the response was “Look! Terrorists and dead babies!”, and abortion/social issues have been a good tool for fake conservative pols to manipulate conservatives into following them. Change that image, and you get those voters. I don’t know that Daniels’ phrasing of that was what you’d call smart, but I do think that this concept is one that should be seriously considered by conservatives.

  • jerry39

    What do you mean, repealing heathcare versus compromising on abortion? One is definite, the other is vauge and undefined.

    If you could end on or the other, which would it be? I’d ask the same of the others espousing the truce? If you could end a. abortion, or b. obamacare – which would you choose?

    Of course, the point itself is too hypothetical to apply, If you could end obamacare or compromise on gun rights, wihch would you do? Why even ask the question? The question assumes a non-existant magical world where some omnishent being has given you just one wish.

  • aesthete

    Large government is having real effects now.

  • powertothepeople

    as to why he lost, but the question was why was he nominated……lol.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    DeVine Wisdom

    The left uses this tactic to declare priorities to try and divert attention from failures and other issues by posing a false choice as if what gets the word “priority” attached to it means anything. It doesn’t.

    Here is how successful candidates deal with “priorities” and other matters related to campaign strategy:

    They execute the strategy.

    They don’t announce the strategy to reporters.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    they make moderates celebrities by making them co-stars on Sunday Shows etc

  • jerry39

    1. Is it about the issues.

    Nobody would be the least bit upset with a candidate who said “My top priority wil be to cut spending” Nobody. Or even a list of top 3 priorites 1 – Cut spending, 2 – Lower taxes – 3 – Put the EPA in a room full of Polar Bears. Would I be jumping up and down, no. But thats not what the man said, Case in point – in the last 24 hours we have evidence sufficient to defund planned parenthood, and Erick has just shown us O’s pravda-like attempts to be untransparent about abortion. Now, I expect that my congressman can cut spending while at the same time, deal with these opportunties/threats in the pro-life arena. But those involved in a “truce” would not be able to.

    2. There are many many more single issue pro-life voters.

    3. Bush did not run on beging a big spender, he ran as conservative all around, so the comparison does not make sense.

    4. Pro-life conservatives I know did not give bush a pass on his fiscal failures becuase of his pro-life success. Back to point 3, are you suggesting he should have been primaried in 2004 because of his fiscal misteps? If not – there is no point to this point, other than that conservatives should have bashed Bush more?

    5. Who has manipulated who wth social issues? Give some examples? Since 1980 Reagan, GW Bush have run as social and fiscal conservatives and both served 2 terms. GHW Bush, Bob Dole, and John McCain have run as wishy washy on social issues (the key to success in your opinion) and have 1 term between them on the coattails of Ronald Reagan.

    6. Fake conservatives, IMHO were pretty obviously outted in the last 2 years as they were always the ones jumping ship when they were about to get primaried – not a strong pro-lifer in the bunch.

  • zroxx

    The governor also reaffirmed his position that, even though Indiana’s lack of a right-to-work law holds the state back, the issue isn’t urgent enough to be tackled this year.

    “I don’t want to see it in this General Assembly,” Daniels said.

    He said a right-to-work law should have been part of last year’s campaign if lawmakers wanted to pass it this year. He also said the issue could disrupt progress he’d like to make on other fronts.

    The Indiana House of Representatives’ first work day was marred this year when, less than 10 minutes into session, a fight broke out over a right-to-work bill.

    “It’s a very worthy thing to debate, but that’s the whole point,” Daniels said. “It hasn’t happened yet.” [cite]

    … Daniels, also a Republican, has told legislative leaders that it would be better to leave the issue alone, even though he believes the proposal has merit. Daniels noted neither he nor the House Republican caucus campaigned on the proposed change.

    “It’s a very legitimate issue,” Daniels said. “But I think it’s too big to do without having discussed it out in the open first. And I’ll also say I think it would have the potential ? just tactically ? to possibly reduce or wreck the chances for education reform and local government reform and criminal justice reform and the things we have a wonderful chance to do.”

    Daniels said he believes it’s a valid idea, even if he doesn’t think it’s appropriate to pursue it now.[cite, emphasis mine]

    So it’s quite a stretch to portray Daniels as “hostile” to the idea of right-to-work. There are other positions far more worthwhile to chide him for, including his stated intent to sign legislation banning smoking in “all workplaces” – well, except for casinos.

    The two issues are interesting because to be honest there’s nothing conservative at all about telling a company or business what it can’t do with regard to their management of premises and consensual contracts made between them and their employees and customers. The State of Indiana is being needlessly intrusive both when it prohibits restaurants from allowing their patrons to smoke (well, except those restaurants in the casinos, ahem) and likewise needlessly intrusive when it tells companies they can’t require their employees to pay union dues. Restaurant patrons can choose to eat someplace else and employees can choose to work someplace else.

    In the case of “right-to-work” you may think supporting the legislation as proposed in Indiana is conservative because it feels like you’re fighting unions, but you’re really just supporting a new government-coerced restriction of the liberty of business owners when you ought to be persuading the workers to abandon and avoid those companies whose employment practices you find objectionable.

  • jerry39

    Its size and scope of the federal government. Socialism v. Capitalism. A perilous fiscal condition is the condition, the cause of which is an ever expanding, intrusive, and socialistic government.

    The spark for the tea parties was Rick Santelli’s rant – which was almost exclusively a repudiation of forcing taxpayers to pay for other people’s houses. We were paying for houses, paying for banks, being told not to go Vegas, watching the govt. decide to fund foreign abortions for the first time in 30 years, hearing about takeover of health care and energy at all levels. These are issues of property rights and basic freedoms. Rights – rights like the right to not be killed in the womb. This is the derivation of the tea parties.

    But that is a tangential point – the key problem is your thesis has no factual support. We just had the largest mid-term victory since ? There is no basis for the notion that the traditional coaltion didnt work here? Yes, many many independents who were fooled by Obama joined in to help. But to leap from that victory to a baseless assumption that we cant win uless we ad to our base by alienating our base – just makes zero sense.

  • avgjo

    It is the exact opposite: it protects business owners from hostile take-overs of their business by a third, often communist,party.

    I was largely with you until this freaky line.

  • Scope

    Inhofe fought hard against banning earmarks. While the numbers may be small, the electorate wants earmarks gone, yesterday.

  • zroxx

    For example, from one of the right-to-work bills introduced in Indiana (emphasis mine):

    Employee’s right to work. Makes it a Class A misdemeanor for an employer to require an individual to: (1) become or remain a member of a labor organization; (2) pay dues, fees, or other charges to a labor organization; or (3) pay to a charity or another third party an amount that represents dues, fees, or other charges required of members of a labor organization; as a condition of employment or continuation of employment.

    So what strikes me about this legislation is that it is very clearly a new restriction placed on employers intruding on the contractual nature of the employer/employee relationship.

    Substitute “wear deodorant”, “remove facial piercings”, and/or “speak english” for 1, 2, and 3 and you’ll maybe see what I’m getting at. We would, I assume, rightly be opposing legislation that told employers that it is a felony to make employment conditional on meeting such requirements. Why are the requirements being criminalized by this legislation any different?

    Point being if an employer wants to make employment conditional on eating creamed corn at the start of the shift, or on joining some union, then the state has no legitimate interest in prosecuting them for doing so. Employers should be free to set the terms of employment no matter how counterproductive to their own success we may think those terms are. Workers should be free to apply for the job, negotiate for compensation and terms, and walk away whenever they decide those terms are no longer acceptable.

    Make sense?

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    Pro-Lifers are tired of getting burned by Supreme Court nominees that are not properly vetted on the life issue. Trust on this issue must be earned. Daniels’s comments clearly seek to marginalize Pro-Lifers. How can we trust him now? Just because he says he is Pro-Life? I’m sorry, but we’ve been down that road before. Durbin, Pelosi, Reid and Kennedy all said they were Pro-Life at one point or another. If you don’t have someone who clearly understands the import of protecting Life, or worse someone who shows he clearly does not, then he is not who we are looking for. I am simply not interested in a presidential candidate who is marginally Pro-Life, once it is fiscally convenient.

    Second, this reflects a larger problem. The way he waded into this a second and third time either reflects an antipathy towards a huge segment and central tenet of the GOP base, or political ineptitude. I don’t want either in my nominee.

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    The Dems will hail as sacred the time honored tradition of the filibuster and shout hypocrisy from the rooftops when the tables are turned, with Schumer as their mouthpiece every Sunday morning on national TV when its our turn to put someone on the Court.

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    Daniels announced in his first State of the State speech his plan to add a temporary tax on high earners who could afford to pay more to balance the state’s budget. It got shot down, but his instincts and values do not preclude him from raising taxes.

    So I’m supposed to sacrifice my social conservative values so he can compromise on fiscal conservative values? I don’t think so.

  • Spiral

    Agree completely.

    We need to plan for the next Democrat filibuster of a conservative judicial nominee, which will probably happen in June or July of 2013, because that is when someone like Antonin Scalia or Anthony Kennedy will announce they are retiring from the court. The Democrats will not want the court to move to the Right, which would be the case if Kennedy were to retire and a conservative were nominated as his replacement.

    Expect a Schumer, Durbin, Reid led filibuster against a conservative judicial nominee in 2013.

    The key question for the GOP would be: Do you have the guts to use the Constitutional Option or are you just going to bow to the Left and say, “Ok. We will just nominate a moderate, someone acceptable to the Left.”

  • lineholder

    “Hey, I’m going to chuck this loyal friend that I have for this other really popular person over here, and then I’ll be popular too, and if I’m not, I can always count on that loyal friend to be there”.

    Loyalty is like trust…the door swings both ways, it has to be earned not demanded, and there is only so far it can be imposed upon.

    Daniels isn’t the man for me at this point either. I’ve become convinced of that fact by reading this post.

  • Bill S

    then he has no bloody business being President. Hell, he has no business being Governor of Indiana either.

    The fact is: he IS capable of that. He’s proven that by his accomplishments in IN. This is why his blather about truces and muting is patently absurd. There has never been a President or Congress who have had the luxury of dealing with one problem at a time.

    Remember the last person who tried to put everything aside to deal with the economy?

    John McCain, who “suspended” his campaign to deal with the financial crisis. McCain was making real progress in his campaign against Obama at that point.

    Until he called truce.

    Daniels should have kept his trap shut. His “truce” proposal does nothing but alienate the most significant constituency in the GOP, and it most certainly would accomplish nothing legislatively or otherwise.

  • Bill S

    SBA List represents a boatload of social conservative voters. It is irrelevant whether it’s aimed at socon organizations or individuals. The implication is exactly the same: the issues you are focusing on are of less importance than MY issues, and you should just mute yourselves so the big boys can get on with business.

    No sale.

  • Bill S
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Bill S

    it’s not a choice between one and the other. Both can be done. Our Presidents and Congresspeople ARE capable of dealing with more than one issue at a time. Try reading the Congressional Record some time – there is more than one thing going on at a time.

    Next.

  • bobmontgomery

    …I commented at another site in re the Elton John/What’s his name owning a child thing : How very sad that this child, by design, will never know….a mother’s love.

  • earlgrey

    I will say that no President in recent history has been willing to face our debt situation. It would be nice if our current President put some priority on preserving the solvency of the US, but that is too much to ask of him (apparently).

    What needs to be done is unprecedented. He is trying to buy some support. I think he should win the nomination, win the election and than maybe buy some support, by tackling fiscal before social (when necessary).

    I still think he would be a good President, but I wonder if he is trying to on some level sabotage his own campaign.

  • brooklyncon

    Federal law forces employers to recognize unions, gives unions the power to “represent” every worker in a bargaining unit (even those who want nothing to do with the union), makes it illegal for a company to refuse to negotiate with a union, bans “yellow dog” contracts, and violates the free-market in dozens of other ways.

    The suggestion that anything that comes out of all that government coercion should be seen as a voluntary contract is absurd.

    The ultimate fix would be repeal of all federal labor law… something the communist union bosses oppose, because it is the only thing that lets them enter into contracts that force workers to pay dues.

  • ciscoguy

    All I’m saying is this: the unemployment rate just went up to 9.8 and this incompetent jerk still has a 50% approval rate. Winning this election is not going to be easy, and we are going to need a candidate who will appeal to independents. Pence is running for governor and Reagan is dead. Who is the rock-ribbed conservative you want that is going to get Obama out of there?

  • avgjo

    There must be a reason.

    Hmmm.

  • http://www.coloradans4palin.com bjwilson83

    is why I wrote this diary. Widely panned by moderators as “trying to pick a fight”, that was not my intention at all. I knew these issues would inevitably come to a head and I thought it would be helpful for us to all get on the same page earlier. We need to have the these discussions quickly and clearly define where the conservative movement stands with regard to the sometimes diverse coalitions it brings together. Otherwise we will be in bad shape going into the 2012 election cycle.

  • powertothepeople

    because if it was, we could just push for Clinton to run and she would take Obama out. There are going to be key factors that must happen in order to beat Obama.

    1) Must make sure we all get behind the nominee and that we do not give too much ammo to the left during the primaries

    2) Got to make sure we do not put up another McCain

    3) Got to make sure who every we put up has a record on fiscal and social issues that matches their rhetoric. If we put up some idiot like Huck who claims to be a fiscal conservative yet his record says different, we will lose.

    Daniels is not even close to being the answer. But until we know who is running, we can not make an educated guess as to who is best to beat Obama.

    And on a side note, it will be nice if Obama continues to piss off his most leftist supporters. Should this continue to happen, thrid party candidates will get in the race such as the Green Party. They will not pull a ton of votes, but they will pull enough in some areas that it turns republican when it would usually be democrat.

  • http://www.coloradans4palin.com bjwilson83

    There’s no way Huckabee could win if fiscal and libertarian conservatives didn’t get behind him. Social conservatives can get 40% of the vote. You need a candidate to be solid on the other two legs of the stool to get them over the top.

  • ciscoguy

    I tell you what, a-hat: go get your Huckabee and run him up there pontificating about social issues while the currency is crashing, we’re stuck at 10% unemployment, the debt is at 15 trillion, gas is closing in on $4, and the middle east is in complete chaos. That sounds like a BRILLIANT strategy. Independent voters are going to be falling all over themselves to hear your abortion and gay marriage message. Move over, Karl Rove, we’ve got a new “Architect”!

    You’re too stupid to realize it, but I’m just as socially conservative as you. The difference between you in me is that you’re just a BS’er: you’d rather complain about Obama getting the opportunity to appoint 2 or more SC justices than vote for someone that didn’t meet your ultra-rigid purity test.

    We’ve had 9-10% unemployment and Obama is holding the line with around 50% approval rating. You think that other 50% is just pissed off that you can still get a legal abortion? What do you think is going to happen to that approval rating if the state of affairs improve, even just a little? You think we’re going to beat Obama at 52-53% with Rick Santorum as our guy – do you? Who is this mystery SoCon bulwark you’ve been hiding? You know, the one with the executive experience and fiscal chops that is going to win over all the independents, huh? Oh, I forgot – it’s the gay marriage issue that’s going to carry the day for us. YOU are a damn FOOL.

  • http://www.coloradans4palin.com bjwilson83

    Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at below. We need to start by clearly defining our goals. We need to say, this is issue is ok, this issue is not, and these other issues we disagree on but we all agree that we can work together on the issues we do agree on. If we cannot agree on some of those basic things, then we will eventually splinter on down the line when it really counts, in the general election.

  • gekster

    He has a problem and we are taking up a collection to get him the help he needs.
    It’s a very delicate operation, and we don’t know the cost yet.
    When we finally get enough mony, we will send him to
    get the STICK removed out of his butt.
    It’s a big one and is causing him and us all alot of pain.
    Until then, be nice. ;)

  • powertothepeople

    did reality get your underoos into a bunch. You did not want anyone to tell you you were wrong.

    Well as the old verbage goes, sticks and stones……. and you are not man enough to even use those……….

    Now when you actually have a clue as to what you are talking about, come back and try again. Until then, keeping tucking the tail.

  • powertothepeople

    you want to act clever and butt into something you have no clue about, you go write another useless car analogy. Good idea right?

    Or you could lecture another for language and how to be nice right after you call someone a rectal hole.

    And the stick is just fine where it is.

  • gekster

    I got my Nascar jammies on.
    Fire retardent you know. :)

    Ya know, with all the vile you throw at others, you can’t take a little ribbing yourself, can you.
    I guess old skin is thin skin.

  • edwlstr

    defined how?

  • speciallist

    really

  • powertothepeople

    above, when you want to be clever, stick to failed car analogies as once again you have demonstrated you were too anxious to butt in with little knowledge about the whole conversation.

    And trust me, nothing you could every say would get to me. I never intended to be friends with internet folks so your opinion would never bother me on way or the other. Just funny how hypocritical you are and yet so willing to run around acting like the saint. Maybe before spending time worrying about what I post, you should worry more about yourself insulting other posters with the whole “rectal orifice” first. Hard for someone like yourself who is inclined to insult to admonish another for the same. Not to mention your incessant need to butt into other conversations with the only intent to preach.You know the whole beam in your eye while trying to pull a splinter from my eye thing…….

  • powertothepeople

    would there not have to be bragging/boasting in the post for you to use the word gasconade and do you mean hyperbolize? Just wondering…

  • zroxx

    I’ll certainly support the repeal of all legislation that accords “unions” any different status or standing than any other association of citizens.

    But I reject legislation that adds a new layer on top of the onion you’ve described. A layer that affords government bureaucrats yet another avenue to intrude in the business of citizens.

    With status quo every prospective employee can freely choose to seek and gain employment, as well as leave when that employment becomes objectionable, as may be the case if their employer demands they join a union. There is no threat of government prosecution against the employee for choosing to leave. But what the legislation I cited above does is add a new coercive threat against employers from government, prohibiting them from fully exercising their choice as to the conditions of employment in their own business. It is a net decrease in liberty and freedom, and an increase in the scope and regulatory power of government; therefore I reject it.

  • gekster

    rectal orafice thing.
    Is the stick enflaming your hemroids.
    That would explain alot of your comments.
    I have noticed some of your comments are well thought out and intelligent.
    But your habbit of ripping into people who have difference of opiniion….
    well, I blame that on the hemroids, it’s not really your fault.
    $5 doller donations are being taken up at gekster@whereamiat.com
    please donate, he needs help bad.

  • speciallist

    crowing and blustering

  • powertothepeople

    for spending money for something other than what you advertised you were collecting it for, it is:

    Hemorrhoids.

    If you are going to run around correcting me or being my conscience, you need to make sure your own ducks are in a row.Oh, and just so you get the right type of funding, its dollar. Carry on though, hope you garner a ton of donations.

  • powertothepeople

    I would suggest you use the proper word. Normally I would not care, but considering past history, I must insist on proper word usage.

  • zroxx

    Keep in mind the phrase “right-to-work” is in itself fairly misleading. There isn’t (and shouldn’t be) a right to have a job, nor a right to work for a wise, kind, and/or thoughtful employer. There is a right to freely associate and contract with others for an exchange of goods, services, and labor. And there is a right to steer clear of employers whose conditions of employment you do not agree to abide by.

    You should look with great suspicion at any attempt by government to play any role in the employer/employee relationships beyond provision of a judicial system for resolving contract disputes.

  • gekster

    you ain’t worth all those letters.
    And the language thing was a suggestion. NOT a command.
    I just tell my grandchildren that some people have no respect for others, and use such language. And you postings show such.
    It is obvious that that you can not articulate a thought with out improper verbage.
    Bad language is the curse of illiterate men.
    Since you seam to like to use it,
    well…. you do the math.

  • lineholder

    It IS possible to do both AT THE SAME TIME. It’s ridiculous to suggest that they aren’t capable of doing both at the same time and therefore have to set priorities, which of course in this case involves “muting” social conservatives.

    As if we don’t have plenty of challenges lying in wait for us as it is even before the next election takes place. If we thought voter fraud was rampant in the past, just wait until 2012. The Dems have too much invested in this. They aren’t going to abide by the law. They’re already proving this daily so why the election be any different?

    GOTV has to be “all-hands-on-deck”. Ticking off social conservatives isn’t going to help matters much at this point.

    And if we have a lick of sense, conservatives of all stripes will start trying to figure out ways to become watchdogs for our electoral system.

    If we can’t be agreement on anything else, I hope we can be agreement on these things, because if we don’t find a way to safeguard against voter fraud, who runs as candidate on the R side of the fence won’t matter.

  • powertothepeople

    I will leave it at this. A man who calls another a fool should not then be irritated when he sees another call someone an idiot.

    I think you would agree with that.

    A man who insults another should not then be offended when he sees another person insult another.

    Think you would agree with that.

    If one slang is wrong, so is another.

    Again I think you would agree with that.

    So since up to the day I used the word piss, I never had one issue with you. let look at your problem.

    In that post, I used the word piss twice. Piss is slang for pee. 99% of people have no issue with that word and in very few circles would it be considered improper language. For some reason you feel it is. On the face of that, seems I should avoid using the word, along with the others (many others here) who use it on this site.

    Problem is, you made a post right before me where you used the slang crap a few times as well. I have no problem with crap nor do many others, BUT, if you are going to lecture me, make such a big case (like you did) over my slang word, then you yourself should not be using slang. Crap is slang for poo, piss is slang for pee. Now tell me which is worse and who sets the standard. Or are you telling me it is OK for you to use any slang you are OK with, but I must only use slang you are OK with.

    Second issue. You do not like me calling someone an idiot. Fine. I have toned that way down, but that is beside the point. You yourself have called quite a few “morons” or your version “maroons” and on the post in question, you called the poster a rectal orifice which is the same as calling them an as*hole. Now again, are you allowed to insult when you please, but no one else? I could care less that you called the guy what you did, he was asking for it. But to lecture me and continue this nonsense over me doing the same but only using a different insult is nothing more than hypocrisy.

    And I am quite sure you get what I am saying. You started this crusade against me, not after mods admonished me, not after the majority on here turned against me, you simply did not like my words and you have continue to come against me. The problem is, you did the same. Not once have I been admonished for my posts by the mods or by anyone else. But you got a hair up your rear and as of today I have no clue as to why. My slang was no worse than your own slang so if my slang offends your grand kids, yours would as well. And never once have I seen you admonish those who use the same word as I did or words such as damn, hell, ass etc which are actually considered cuss words in some circles. So my only conclusion is that you have some agenda against me because you used slang just like I did and you insulted the poster and have insulted other posters and people.

    Now, Once again, I could care less what words you use, who you insult, or anything else you say. I could care less if you want to follow me around in here posting nonsense as I am more than able to play the game with you. The only thing that irritates me is your absolute refusal to accept the fact that whatever issues you have with me, you have done the same thing. It is sort of like an obese person yelling at another obese person for being fat. If you can not understand that, then you really need to seek some help.

    Now if it is something else, maybe you do not like my screen name, maybe you do not like the fact I do not care for Palin, or something else politically, then fine. That would make more sense as to why you seem to have some issue with me and that I could understand. But your “issue’ started with me using a slang word (not a cuss word) which you did as well and that I called a liberal an idiot but yet you called an poster a name as well and one that is much worse than idiot.

    Now, we can drop this nonsense and go back to agreeing on multiple things, we can drop it and avoid each others posts, or you can continue to stalk my posts making your little comments, I will jab back with you, and in the end we both look like fools and eventually staff will admonish us both. It is up to you, I am willing to drop it all and move on but do not think for a sec that I am going to sit by as you pop around making comment after comment on my posts that have nothing to do with you without making some comments back.

    It is up to you…..I am game for whatever you may chose.

  • gekster

    You can use better words, just saying.
    And you do not have to act like a hall monitor, it is not your job here.
    And when other posters don’t see things your way, you don’t have to bash and try to demean them.
    And after seeing the way you post to others who disagree with you and don’t eat your tripe, and there are many of those, I have to think you like to kick puppies and kitties.
    Just how is life like being a bitter old man.

  • Spiral

    If we are going to ask Republican Congressmen in January 2013 to support entitlement reforms that would reduce the rate of growth in Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid, we could simply say, “Ok. Instead of having Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid grow at X percent, let’s have it grow at X-2 percent. Then we will not need to raise taxes.”

    This would be the best way for Republicans to proceed on handling the deficit and debt issue both on political and economic grounds. The economy would not be burdened by additional taxes, taxes which reduce the rate of growth in the economy and politically the Republicans could say, “We dealt with the debt issues without hammering the hardworking US taxpayer.”

    I see no upside to the approach that Daniels seems to be taking. Essentially, Daniels is showing the opposite of leadership by putting taxes on the table.

    As I said before, we might as well nominate Bob Dole for President again if that’s what we want.

  • romack

    When the people of this Nation decide to stop playing silly games then strength of character will return.
    We need to get back to being a Nation of Mom and Pop. Stop giving power to the few. The many suffer when they have no character.

  • kervick

    The conservative movement has been successfully stereotyped as the home for old, white, Southern, evangelical and Baptist revelationists. It is not the social issues that limit the potential of the movement. It is the people themselves, who in addition to being on the average less educated and less exposed to a diversity of ideas than other demographic groups, offer a scary belief in end days philosophy and other revealed religiosity.

    Sorry if this is harsh. But this is what people are saying behind closed doors. The conservative movement, instead of being the home for prairie preachers and fire and brimstone needs to be the home for liberty, free thinking, personal responsibility, Deism, and real community. It needs to be more inclusive with these elements as unifying pillars – just as they were in 1776.

  • ciscoguy

    What do you think this is – a forum for people to come and get bullied into agreeing with all of your ideas? You would make a great liberal – you’ve got the fascist thought-police mentality down cold. Please, just do us all a favor and stay away from DHS until you have your full conversion. We don?t have to endure another Big Sis ?intelligence report? about right-wing extremists just because they discovered you.

  • ciscoguy
  • sertelt

    .. has condemned the truce. http://www.lifenews.com/2010/07/15/state-5252/

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
  • LibertarianHawk

    I realize that every issue is divisive.

    But at least tell me you understand that the more wedges you can move out of the way — even if temporarily — the better chance you have at constructing a larger coalition to attack a single problem.

    I’m sure that members of the Tea Party have diverse opinions on social issues, religion, Iraq, sports, American Idol, and everything else that divides people.

    But they also have a single common strain: the size and scope of government.

    That’s why Barone’s observation that the “truce” is, really, already underway was so poignant. The Tea Party is not a traditional coalition of the trilateral conservative movement — and it’s a mistake to understand it as such.

    Now, I’m sure that the majority of TPers would self-identify as conservatives across-the-board. But it’s a more narrow set of ideas which brought them together and defined them.

    So, if you have a problem with Daniels’ “truce”, then logic would dictate that you also have a problem with the Tea Party….since it’s not activist on abortion, gay marriage, and other social issues.

  • edintexas

    So Daniels believes nothing should ever come up in the Legislature unless, and until, it has been part of the preceeding election campaign.

    And Right To Work isn’t about employer’s rights. It is about the right of workers to refuse to join a bargaining unit and keep their job and their money.

    It does impinge on an employer’s rights in that it eliminates the ability of an employer to fire an employee solely for refusing to be part of a bargaining unit and have the employer take union dues from the employee’s paycheck. If you are an employer who WANTS to fire his employees if they don’t wish to be part of a union, I’d sure hate to work for you.

  • edintexas

    Your argument makes it seem you are an employee, or officer, of a union, or at least a union member. As I live in a RTW state, I can say this is a non-issue. Unions are still able to strong arm governmental units into collective bargaining, They just can’t force the employer to make all the employees members of the bargaining unit. And I’ve never seen an employer who wanted, all on his own, to force employees to join a union. I’ve seen many employers in non-RTW states who work diligently to prevent union organizing, but have to collect dues from all their employees once they lose the bargaining unit election. In a non-RTW state, it is not a matter of choice, for either the employer or employee, once that election is lost.

  • acat

    include that he’s coordinated more than one nationwide campaign so won’t stumble out of the gate, that many of the GOP in Congress will answer his phone calls, and that the mainstream media don’t know what to do with his southern accent any more than they know what to do with Palin’s …

    He could well be the anti-Carter we’re looking for …

    Mew

  • jerry39

    “more wedges you can remove = bigger coalition”

    Generally, you do not increase by subtraction. Yes, I understand your premise is that you are subtracting a negative, and therefore its addition.

    But that premise is incorrect, you are not subtracting a negative, you are subtracting the component that has brought the party practically every major victory it has had since 1980.

    Our coalition in 2010 and 2012 has and has the the potential to rival or surpass that of Reagan’s. But it will not be because the coalition narrows itself to a single issue. The concept is ludicrous. It will be because indepenents see it our way on few major issues, while at the same time we hold onto the established base.

    Just like in 1980, Independents could join us for a variety of reasons. Yes, size and scope of government will be the single biggest. But you must realize that by 2012, it will be more than 2 years since Obama was able to enact sweeping socialistic bank breaking legislation, becuase he has already lost the house. By that time, his foreign policy missteps may be the primary draw to independents as that issue is now coming to the fore, and Obama has been neutered somewhat on fiscal issues. It could even be social issues, if Obama protects Planned Parenthood after they were just caught aiding and abbetting the sex-slave industry. Obama is showing incompetence and divergence from the American people on so many fronts, that attempting gauge how many or for what reason we will add to our ranks, is just a guessing game at this point.

    The point is that we keep what we have and we add to it. Moderate pro-choicers will not require us to abandon the pro-life platform if we have just gone through a foreign policy “hostage crisis” scenario.

    Likewise, those who comrprehend the fiscal misteps come to the party to correct them, they dont come to the party because we have abandoned our other principles.

    As to the tea party, I am a member of my local tea party, and it is absurd to equate not wanting a presidential candidate who has called a truce on the life issue, with me “having a problem” with political action groups that may focus on one or two or 10 conservative issues, simply because they do not address them all. So i can attend a tea party or a club for growth type event and not expect that abortion be discussed. But yes, if the tea party were to demand I personally call a truce on pro-life issues, I would be gone in a minute.

    That is the issue – these suggestions of a truce have the opposiite effect of creating a coalition. They are destructive, not productive. They have already forced dozens of arguments on this website alone, focusing on social issues in a meaningless way – when we could be focusing on other things.

    Thats why Daniels was not “poignant” when he suggested the truce was underway – it was moronic. A truce was not underway – a focused effort on the biggest issues confronting the conservative movement was underway. The importance of pro-life issues is not diminished simply becuase they are not at the fore, but most of us are not so single minded that we aren’t going to fight the enemy immediately before us. That enemy has been the size/scope/fiscal issues of the day.

    Daniels misinterpretation, both of the nature of winning R coalitions and of the meaning of our pragmatism, has created this needless internal dispute. He certainly does not deserve credit for it.

  • brooklyncon

    If you think letting employees opt out of a contract that has been imposed on them and their employer completely through special union powers in federal law law adds coercive power, then you have a very weird view of government coercion.

  • edintexas

    I didn’t realize that the heroes of my younger days, both Buckley brothers, had ideas which were being held back by old Southern Caucasian illiterate Religious people.

    Come to think of it, most all my neighbors (when I was younger) were Democrats. Now they vote Republican. Guess they can’t be too stupid.

    As someone who fits some of your stereotype (White, Southern and an old curmudgeon), I’d have to say you fit one of my stereotypes – Dam**d Yankee. And a very narrow-minded one at that.

  • acat

    made by, primarily, Daniels although other candidates have made similar noises.

    The moderates do not appear to care. The FiCons and libertarians don’t seem to care. It’s the SoCons who are up in arms, and the only thing I can attribute it to is that so many got taken in (pinned their hopes on?) Bart Stupak and other Dems who claimed to be pro-life but, when the rubber met the road, ended poorly.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the fact is that Daniels shows poor judgment in thinking such a statement needed to be made. He instigated the goring, when none was needed. The way you exercise a strategy is to exercise it, not announce it. You simply DO talk more about fiscal/econ issues. You don’t go out of your way to pick fights with people that are also focused on the economy.

    Daniels screwed up. No significant number of so-cons caused him to make the mistake. He did it to himself.

  • LibertarianHawk

    I don’t take what he’s saying as “quieting” anybody up. As with the analogy of the mute button, pushing mute doesn’t take Chris Matthews off the air…he can still talk on TV and others can still watch and listen if they so choose.

    But, if you’ve pushed mute, it means you’re not listening for the time being.

    When he says “push the mute button”, I think he means taking those matters off the policy table for the time being.

    That has nothing to do with quieting anybody.

  • LibertarianHawk

    And if I thought we had the numbers to do this on our own, I’d be fine with that.

    But the logic behind Daniels’ argument — and I think he makes sense — is that we don’t have the numbers to do it on our own.

    We’re going to need to bring more into the fold…and tabling social issues is the most plausible way to do that.

  • jerry39

    I think I posted their educational platform A couple years ago.

    It was horrific. They wanted 5 year olds to know how to masturbation, its OK to touch yourself, women dont have to have babies if they dont want to, there are three (or 4?) types of sexual identity. Its child abuse at that age, not to mention opposed to 99% of the public’s sexual morality. If they could, I am sure they would want 7 year olds to know that selling your body to middle age men – is your choice! Pure evil.

    When Obama gave them this type of education a nod, there was a little uproar, but he spun out of it – and got a pass – even Oreilly gave him a pass by accepting Obama’s lie about what he meant. It took about 20 minutes of research to see Obama had directly quoted PP’s preamble regarding sex education, and to see the horrors that followed – but no journalist apparently had the time to dig a little deeper.

    Then about a year – there was a little uproar about their teen education site which plainly mimiced a black teen boy going down on a white teen. Of course they got a pass.

    They have 2 suits in Ohio and others around the country where abused minors were taken in by their abusers for multiple abortions and of course PP aided the abusers.

    Then we have the audio of PP accepting donations targeted to kill black babies. Someday the African American community is going to wake up to the disdain their party really has for them. That would be the 3rd wave of the pro-life movement that could lead to ultimate victory.

    Point – dont let anybody argue this is an isolated incident.

  • acat

    I suspect Daniels was trying to set out a non-threatening non-defined position that would keep the SoCons from trying to pin him down while he talked about fiscal issues.

    This could have been done by cribbing some “strong family” notes from Reagan, so yes, that Daniels phrased this poorly is very poor judgement – certainly shows a disconnect with the grass-roots-SoCons that would, sooner or later, have destroyed his primary bid.

    As it is, it’s a kind of good that he’s imploding .. should make it more obvious to other candidates what not to do, at least…

    The thing that I’m frustrated by is that the SoCons ox was never in any real danger… and now we’re out a candidate who understood the problem, and who understood some of what it would take to fix it.

    Mew

  • redneck_hippie
  • acat

    Because that’s the main point we’ve gone back and forth on…

    Mew

  • LibertarianHawk

    My question was a response to his warning that social conservatives would sink Daniels for this.

    The question was largely rhetorical — and the suggestion was hardly veiled: if social conservatives possess that much power over the GOP nominating process, I fail to understand how John McCain (not to mention a number of other GOP nominees who were hardly rock-ribbed SoCons) won the nomination.

    I understand that there are many reasons why McCain won. But I wasn’t actually interested in understanding them. My point was to suggest to powertothepeople that perhaps he doesn’t hold as much sway as he thinks.

    It would be one thing, I guess, if Daniels had a record on social issues like Giuliani (or even Romney, for that matter). But his record on social issues is fine.

    He’s just wanting to move them to the backburner to allow policymakers to expend all their political capital on tackling the fiscal problem.

  • zroxx

    … I?ve never seen an employer who wanted, all on his own, to force employees to join a union.

    Then why do we need additional legislation (see example above) that punished employers for doing what you think none of them want to do anyway?

    Your argument makes it seem you are an employee, or officer, of a union, or at least a union member.

    Actually, I sound like an employer who doesn’t want the government telling me how to run my business. If I want to shoot myself in the foot and drive away my employees with my decision making, that’s my prerogative, not the governments. It doesn’t matter if my decision is telling my employees they have to buy formal business wear to work an assembly line job, or telling them they have to join a union.

    As an employee today I can tell an employer imposing such conditions to go rot and get a job somewhere else. I don’t need the government’s help in taking care of myself.

    Why are you suggesting more government legislation instead of demanding the repeal of government legislation regarding employee/employer relationships?

  • zroxx

    Employees aren’t under threat of prosecution for refusing stay in a job where their employer is demanding them to do something they do not want to do. Employment subject to conditions set by the employer is not coercion.

    All this legislation does is add new government coercion that threatens an employer with prosecution for conducting their business as they please with regards to a union.

    This is a classic legislative shell game. You’re watching the noble sounding but meaningless slogan, “right-to-work”, and meanwhile the bureaucrat gets a new tool to interfere in the free market while we all implicitly agree that only the government can solve this problem.

    Demand that the bureaucrat cease all interference between employees and employers. Don’t nod with approval as he adds new code to the books, which he can choose to pursue or ignore according to his whims and enrichment – not yours.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    most flawed opponent in my lifetime.

  • hoosierteacher

    Christi just cut off all funding for Planned Parenthood in NJ, and is launching an atty gen investigation. You and I both know that Daniels won’t do the same.

    Now, if both individuals were to run for the primary, I’ll bet most libertarians would back Daniels, and most conservatives would back Christi. And I also bet Christi would win that primary.

    Further, as it stands with two major gaffes (that only libertarians can’t seem to understand), I’ll place a major wager that Daniels just cost himself any reasonable shot of winning a GOP primary.

    (Friendlies don’t tell me to hit the mute button. Frinedlies don’t call a third of conservatism “rabbit holes”. How would you like it if someone said we should hit the mute button on libertarians, and ignore their rabbit hole ideas? Words have consequences. And you’ll note that other conservatives aren’t calling for a mute button on fiscal issues, because conservatism has three legs (social, defense, fiscal), and if you are being a squish on any of these you aren’t playing team ball).

  • hoosierteacher

    But you don’t seem to think that words have consequences. And frankly, given Christi’s new front against planned parenthood, I’ll say that Daniels is no Christi.

    Thank God that Christi doesn’t buy into the libertarian “social issues can’t wait” garbage.

  • aesthete

    1 – Would be relevant if Daniels had a “change in heart” a la Romney regarding life issues. As is, he simply made a careless offhand statement on priorities that has been interpreted to mean that he will sacrifice infants to Molech from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial should he be elected. This is a disagreement about strategy and phrasing, not party platform or ideology.

    2 – Look at Colorado and tell me how much the pro-life movement helped there. Socons are the cavalry of the conservative movement: there are excellent ways to use cavalry, but headlong charges on a wall of prepared pikes is not one of them. Emphasizing socially conservative positions in inappropriate ways or at inappropriate times is wasting your cavalry.

    3 – False. What was “compassionate conservatism” about?

    4 – Sorry, but they most certainly did. The only issue that Bush really got popular backlash on was a social one: McCain-Kennedy. Not even a dismantling of the First Am got as much furor. There was no attempt to curb the spending habits of Republicans at either a Congressional or a Presidential level until TARP passed.

    5 – Bill Frist (online gambling bill), Mike Huckabee (everything :) ), Bart Stupak and pols generally excusing their poor behavior by pointing to pro-life voting records. Those are just some quick ones off the top of my head.

    6 – Again, this has nothing to do with life issues being jettisoned! I’m *not* a socon, but I care strongly about life issues: believe me, I’m the last person who would want Rs to revise their stance on those issues. It’s about not letting social issues in general overtake fiscal issues in importance at the moment (as many socially conservative special interest groups would like to see happen). I think you bring up some good points upthread about McDonnell and the like, but that is again an argument about political *strategy* and emphasis, not ideology or the party platform.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    make Daniels far superior as a national candidate … from radical muslims as judges, cap and trade support, etc

  • zroxx

    I’d hate to be that worker too. But I wouldn’t be crying out for the government to come force the employer to alter the choices he makes with regards to the business that he owns – not me, not the government.

    In which of these scenarios is Citizen B acting opposite of principles of conservative governance?

    1) Citizen A owns a company and is about to codify a requirement that his employees join a union. Citizen B speaks with A, tells him all the reasons this is a bad idea, and argues that A will have a more successful company with a different course of action.

    2) Citizen A is about to take employment in a company where he’ll be required to join a union. Citizen B speaks with A, tells him all the reasons this is a bad idea, and argues that A should seek employment elsewhere.

    3) Citizen A works in a company where the employer wants to require him to join a union as a condition of continued employment. Citizen B tells A not to worry, contacts his legislator and argues that he should introduce a bill to prevent employers from requiring employees to join unions.

    Hint: the big government bureaucrats love Citizen B in the third scenario – they like to feel needed! They want to you to look to them to help solve all your problems!

  • JSobieski

    Implying that ordinary conservatism is not tolerant in the same way that W implied that ordinary conservatism was not fiscally compassionate.

    I am social conservative and am very pro-life. However, the political fusion of the right will come undone if folks are looking to be insulted and are looking to stop fights.

    W was far more true to the social conservatives of America than he was to the fiscal conservatives of America.

  • LibertarianHawk

    I would be surprised if Gov. Christie doesn’t endorse him.

    Look at this passage from a recent interview…

    “As for the field as a whole, Mr. Christie said he does not know Mike Huckabee, Newt Gingrich or Ms. Palin, but he knows and likes Mitt Romney, Tim Pawlenty, Haley Barbour and Mitch Daniels. He had especially warm words for the job being done by Mr. Daniels, the Indiana governor, who has not indicated whether he will run.”

    Warms my heart — and I say that as a big fan of Gov. Christie’s.

  • acat

    is Barbour will *keep the focus* on Obama, not let it become about himself.

    I don’t see where all other potential candidates (Newt.. (spit)) have the lack of ego required to make that work….

    Mew

  • aesthete

    OTOH, RTW is something of a second-best solution: while it impinges on the right of the employer to hire and fire as he deems, by and large employers don’t really want unions around. It really just makes it impossible for unions to negotiate contracts that require employers to fire employees who don’t want to send a fat check to unions every month.

    In an ideal world, unions, businesses, and employees would hold their rights to contract and we would leave it at that, but in an imperfect world where unions have their tendrils in most government boards dedicated to “impartial” treatment of unions and businesses, where unions have tremendous political power, and where there are laws protecting the “right” to strike without being fired or replaced (again, a violation of the right to contract), RTW is a good second-best solution.

  • chihank

    Santorum says Daniels is wrong on the truce.

    “[He is] far off base. I don’t think he understands what conservatism is all about,” said Santorum of Daniels. “I don’t think he understands that Reagan’s three-legged stool is not just that we have three legs of the stool, the social conservative, the fiscal conservative and national security conservatives, but that the material made of all three parts of the stool is the same. And it’s a moral and cultural heritage of this country, is what that stool, the material itself that the stool is made of.”

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • powertothepeople

    have to say something adult like to be able to have a conversation with other adults. And if you expect me or anyone else to sit by while you call all social cons delusional, you are sadly mistaken. And if you believe we will sit around while you, in such a nonsense manner, try to pimp a candidate, again, you are mistaken.

    But no worries there ciscoguy, I am making you my pet project.

  • powertothepeople

    his parrot?

    Told you, you are my pet project now. Parrrot-Pet got to love how that works out. See you around, a lot!

  • ciscoguy
  • ciscoguy

    Your pet project should be checking yourself into an asylum, psycho boy. Priorities.

  • gekster

    The stick thing, ya know.
    He reminds me of that old guy on Courage, the Cowardly Dog.
    What was his name.

  • aesthete

    While I’m sure that you and I disagree on many social issues, neither of us has called the other a sellout or a traitor for coming to a different conclusion based on the same evidence. IMO, libertarians who see social conservatives as closet fascists are the equivalent of social conservatives who see libertarians as a pack of degenerates.

  • JSobieski

    Sounds like the basis of a coalition.

    Or, we can continue with the circular firing squad.

    I have seen this movie before. It doesn’t end well.

    P.S. The Daniel’s VAT is a substitution for corporate income taxes. Its way to even the playing field with foreign competitors. It was proposed as revenue neutral in terms of what corporations pay. That may be political naive or impractical, but it is not suggestive of a tax raiser.

  • zroxx

    I’m not unsympathetic to persons who feel this rights a wrong as a result of prior government intervention nor do I question their sincerity. But we keep petitioning for and applauding new “second-best solution” laws and years down the road here we look back and wonder why government is bigger than ever before.

    At some point we have got to stop looking to legislation to solve problems and deal with these situations as our own responsibility. Employees aren’t required by force of law to remain employed and exercising that freedom would go a long way – likely all the way – toward convincing business owners that this is not a successful coarse of action. Instead we want government to come in and place yet another fetter on business owners. Do we think such legislation wont be selectively enforced depending on who is in power and what campaign contributions are being made by particular business owners?

    What I abhor here is the mentality that we can’t solve this problem on our own. We have the government we keep begging for. And we’re paying for it.

  • powertothepeople

    I am already winning. I bet you were so mad last night and now that you came close to stomping your feet. It must be rough thinking “psycho boy” thinking this is a real insult. But keep trying, you are my pet project now you know.

  • powertothepeople

    are not very bright are you? But I am impressed, your spelling seems to have gotten a little better. You should have taken the peace offering, you are not really that well equipped.

  • gekster

    You admonish me for tagging after you,
    but now say you are going to tag after ciscoguy.
    You are amusing.

    Before you say it, my last words on this thread.
    I got a ton of snow to shovel.

  • gekster

    ntntntntnt

  • brooklyncon

    You seem to fail to consider that the terms of employment aren’t being imposed by the company. The contract is being forced on the company by federal law that says it is illegal for a company to refuse to bargain with the union and says the company would violate federal law (“bad faith bargaining”) if they came into the government-imposed “negotiation” and said we absolutely refuse to discuss a union security (forced dues) clause.

    If states could pass a law exempting their companies, employees and unions from all the coercion of federal labor law then you might have a point. But, even though I may not like it, I’m pretty sure the courts have said that federal supremacy prevents the states from doing this. Federal law does however allow states to opt out of the forced dues part with RTW.

    That means the closest states can come to repealing federal labor law is right-to-work which treats one symptom of the many violations of federal labor law.

    We agree that RTW won’t restore the free-market by itself, but it is the most a state can do to move in that direction absent changes in federal law or how the courts interpret the 10th Amendment.

  • ciscoguy

    Oh, the irony.

  • http://www.coloradans4palin.com bjwilson83

    I do not think that a consensus has been achieved, so I can’t say whether or not I support it. Will the GOP go Tea Party? Will it stick with moderate “electable” candidates? Who knows? All I can say is that at this point, I can’t see any other candidate that has one tenth the honesty, character, grit, Reaganesque values, and leadership qualities of Sarah Palin.

  • uvbogden

    Mitch Daniels is not the problem, but is merely a symptom of the greater establishment Republican malaise. These people choose to believe that Tea Party and other conservative support for Republicans is based entirely on fiscal issues and that they need not risk losing votes by taking a controversial position of action on social conservative issues.

    These establishment Republicans have requested that social conservatives remain silent so they can gain or maintain power to deal with jobs, the economy and excess government spending. But as this article points out, Tea Party and other conservative supporters and voters for Republican candidates, are largely also social conservatives.

    Many of these Republican supporters see our fiscal difficulties as a moral issue rooted deep in their social conservative, religious and moral, right versus wrong backgrounds. Elected officials selling government (taxpayer) favors to the highest bidders is a moral issue. Overspending and incurring insurmountable debt that destroys our prosperity and passes this burden to our children is clearly a moral issue.

    The Crony Capitalism that goes on between government and powerful business and financial interests provides monopolistic and anti-competitive advantages in return for campaign and other direct or indirect support. These powerful interests have been propped up by corrupt government officials, and these interests and their political cronies are greatly enriched at the expense of the taxpayer and their homes, small businesses, and the American economy. Without question, this is also a major moral flaw.

    Tea Party and other conservatives, that have in recent times supported Republicans, may have been less vocal and demanding on social issues over the past few years. But Republicans, who presume that these supporters are unattached to social conservative issues and that these issues can be deferred indefinitely, do so at their own risk.

    If these Tea Party and many other conservative Republican supporters have truly given their efforts and votes to these candidates to restore honor and morality in government, not just to fix money problems, any demand for social conservatives to sit down and shut up, if obeyed, would be disastrous for Republicans.

    The Tea Party and other social conservatives are not an obstacle to Republican successes that need to be beaten back to allow Republicanism to flourish, they are the very substance of Republican victories. For more information on the Tea Party and social conservative issues, go to the following link:

    http://freedomyetrings.blogspot.com/2011/02/is-tea-party-ducking-social.html

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • capeconservative

    governor!!!! No there is a man who is NOT afraid to work toward a better future for EVERY resident in his state!!!!

    It is time to have a RIGHT TO WORK law in every state in America!!!

    And it is time to END unions in the public sector!!!! That should thin the employment numbers real quick like once they realize they will be expected to do a good job or be fired…JUST LIKE THOSE OF US IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR!!!!!

  • capeconservative

    his conservative credentials before he even thinks about national office. Right now he would never get my vote! Best he try to straighten things out in Indiana first!

  • capeconservative

    As a proud participant in and believer in the Tea Party movement, I add my warning to others…ignore us at your peril!

    We are doing our level best to convince those elected on the Republican ticket that we are serious in our concerns for the future of America. There MUST be ACCOUNTABILITY and this runaway government must come to a screeching halt!!!! NOW! Not later!!!

    America was not founded on the principles of ‘anything goes’ as some in today’s society wish to believe. Without values and respect, we are NOTHING! And the GREAT majority of Americans believe in the principles of our founding fathers…principles that made America the greatest country on earth!!!! No matter how many times our president chooses to say otherwise!!!!

  • zroxx

    To be clear, I’m fully in support of repealing the NLRA, Taft-Hartley, and any other union and employer focused legislation that aims to interfere with the right of employers to hire and fire at will and the right of citizens to seek employment and freely associate. I’m fully in support of spinning down the National Labor Relations Board, the Office of Labor-Management Standards, and any other federal government entity related to the oversight or enforcement of said legislation.

    I empathize with your idea that right-to-work legislation will somehow produce a noble end. I reject the implementation of new laws that punish employers for setting the conditions of employment. Perhaps there is “right-to-work” legislation that does not further decrease employer liberty in the manner I cited above in the proposed Indiana legislation, and if so, feel free to cite.

    Adding another layer on the onion that implies this is a proper area for government intervention and regulation – in my opinion – does more long term harm to the goal of doing away with the entire onion. In spite of a federal requirement for an employer to bargain “in good faith”, I am not aware of any requirement that an employer must acquiesce to a specific clause instituting a requirement for union membership. While I oppose any requirement to bargain at all, the legislation I cited above would change status quo from a scenario where an employer can choose to accept or reject a membership requirement to a scenario in which they are forbidden – by force of criminal prosecution – from accepting such a requirement. The end result is less liberty for the employer. I don’t care if you think the employer should never make that choice. I don’t either, but it doesn’t matter. The choice properly belongs to the employer. Not the government.

    I respect your disagreement, but for me the best way to achieve the long term goal is to stop adding new legislation and focus on repealing existing legislation.