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To grab or not to grab … guns? That is the question.

This morning a friend sent me an article about the Sikh Temple murders in Oak Creek, Wisconsin.  The article describes how the president of the temple attempted to fight back against the murderer – with a butter knife.

On Sunday, he died standing up to the horror of a gunman’s attack on his house of worship in the Milwaukee suburb of Oak Creek. Kaleka, 65, managed to find a simple butter knife in the temple and tried to stab the shooter before being shot twice near the hip or upper leg, his son said Monday.

Of course a butter knife is probably not going to do much against a 9mm semi-automatic.  But Kaleka did fight back heroically in the only way he knew of at the time.  My friend’s comment indicated that this incident demonstrated the fallacy of gun control, implying that gun control means that victims only have rudimentary weapons (like butter knives) at their disposal in a situation where a concealed handgun could well have stopped the murderer.  This, of course is the argument that “Gun Nuts” – Second Amendment & concealed carry supporters – often make in these situations…more guns in the pockets of law-abiding citizens will be a deterrent and would give the ability to cut such episodes short.

The opposite argument comes from the “Gun Grabbers” – “If guns were outlawed, this kind of incident would never happen”.  When posed with the sticky problem of the Second Amendment, their response is “The Founders never imagined that such deadly weapons would be available to commit these heinous crimes”.  Really?

In the 1776 timeframe, the musket was a far deadlier weapon than the bow & arrow, spear or the other weapons that were common with the Native American population.  Surely they had this in mind when they wrote the amendment, say the Grabbers.  But what of the revolver or the repeating rifle?  They were the 1800s’ equivalents of the musket – much more lethal than the single-shot smooth-bore, muzzle-loaded musket.  Many bad guys AND good guys fell dead at the hands of a Navy Colt.  What about the Thompson submachine gun that was popular during Prohibition?  The Tommy Gun was illegal, yet the mobsters of the early 20th century  had little difficulty obtaining them and using them in crimes around the nation.  Yet the Second Amendment and private citizen gun ownership has survived these times.

But, “militia!”, says the Gun Grabbers.  The Second Amendment speaks of a militia – an army.  We don’t have militias, therefore we don’t need to own firearms, they say.  But the Founders understood this.

“I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …”
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, “Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State”

“Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”
George Washington
First President of the United States

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788

Et cetera.

My intent here, however, is not to defend either position…which is why I used somewhat crude names for both sides of the argument.  I bring up this point because every single time an incident such as the Aurora, CO or Oak Creek shootings occur, these debates rear their ugly heads again…usually within seconds of the shootings (search Twitter for #templeshooting if you doubt this…).

Support for gun control has waned since a peak in the 1998 timeframe.  In fact, last year Pew reported that the % of Americans who support gun control is virtually the same as the % who support gun ownership rights.  And polls run shortly after the Aurora, CO movie theater massacre show no change in attitude on gun control.  And the debate rages.

Does it matter?

John Wayne Gacy did not shoot his victims.  Timothy McVey killed his victims with fertilizer.  The 9/11 terrorists used knives and airplanes filled with jet fuel.  Cain murdered Abel without a gun.

Christian theology teaches that original sin was introduced to the world by the Fall in the Garden of Eden.  Death was introduced at that point, and it will be with us until Jesus returns (and let’s not get into eschatology, please…)  As long as there are fallen people, there will be sin, violence, death… and murder.  People will find ways – some that are unimaginable – to kill other people.

Do automatic weapons make murder easier?   Sometimes, yes…but there are much more efficient ways to commit mass murder than using a machine gun.  Do concealed carry laws save lives and avoid murders?  In some situations, yes…in some, no.  Would Satwant Singh Kaleka still be alive if he had had a Glock?  Maybe.  If *I* had a handgun, I’m not sure *I* could bring myself to pull the trigger.  Who can know unless they’re in that situation?

The argument about gun control will never be won.  Ever.  It’s been going on ever since there were guns and a Second Amendment, and it’s not likely to change any time soon.  Both sides will speculate about the impact of reduced numbers of guns on the street and the impact of concealed weapons in more citizens’ pockets.

And there will still be murders, with guns or without.  AK-47s or muskets or switchblades or perhaps even butter knives.

Until the End.

COMMENTS

  • fbks

    Concerning crime, there have been numerous studies and there is no doubt or valid argument against law abiding citizens owning and bearing arms. Concealed carry reduces crime; the larger the percentage of citizens carrying the more crime is reduced.
    Places that post “no firearms allowed” are the preferred places for criminals to engage in murder and chaos, as the odds of encountering armed citizens is minimal. Police almost always show up after the fact and draw chalk lines around the body(s).
    In any case the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with self defense (in of itself a natural right) or hunting, but rather to protect the public from tyranny, period. There can be no “compromise” on this issue as all other rights in the constitution would be annulled upon the repeal of the 2nd Amendment.

  • noodle

    n/t

  • Tbone

    that demonstrates liberals’ total lack of the capacity of logical thought.

    These are the same people who say it is impossible to deport millions of illegal aliens yet somehow think they can collect up 200 million guns.

    They should all be sterilized.

  • Bill S

    …is the last 3 paragraphs.

    I don’t have any doubt about the validity of the 2nd amendment regarding gun ownership. My point is about the argument itself. The Left will not cede the argument, nor will we. I should have pointed out the vast disparity in opinion between the Left and Right – the polling on the Left is just as cut/dried FOR gun control as it is on the right in OPPOSITION to it.

    I just get sick and tired of the same old arguments being conducted every time some sort of horrible crime occurs. It’s fruitless. We’ll never agree. Ever.

    What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

  • ss396

    The Founders had more than muskets or pistols or such in mind when discussing an armed populace. Well before the 2nd Amendment, we have our tried and true Article I, Section 8. Among their Legislative powers, Congress is empowered “…To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;”

    What did the Founders have in mind? A Letter of Marque and Reprisal issued to a private shipping merchant (and they were) implies that that merchant had the most powerful weapon in the world (at that time) in his private possession: an armed ship.

    Heck of a lot bigger, deadlier, and scarier than a musket.

  • leftylurker

    Wow…okay…

    There is space for a debate on how gun/weapon control should look. Only the most intense libertarians reject gun control entirely. Most individuals recognize that there should be some limits to the weapons people should be allowed to possess. For example, I’m guessing that 99.99% of Americans would agree that a felon convicted of a violent crime should not be allowed to possess a canister of sarin gas or an armed attack chopper.

    Having set that as one threshold, I would probably say that a similar % of Americans would agree that a citizen should be allowed to possess a rifle for hunting or a knife for utility work. The answer to how we as a nation should regulate weapons is somewhere in the middle.

  • Dave_A

    I used to live in Milwaukee, and I still comment on the JSOnline.com website…

    As I’ve posted there, and as the OP notes, as long as you can find ammonium nitrate or urea fertilizer, and either fuel oil or aluminum powder… Mass murder is as easy as some simple chemistry…

    There are 2 ways to stop homicidal nuts like the guy who shot up the Sikh temple…. Either you catch them committing lesser crimes and keep them in prison… OR you kill them before they can complete their plan…

    Gun control does NOTHING to prevent the homicidal maniac from killing (and even worse, it may force him to consider the far more deadly option of a bombing… I’m sure everyone would rather McVeigh had tried to shoot up the Murrah building, vs blow it up, for example… )

    However, it DOES make the ‘kill him before he can complete the plan’ option much more difficult, as only the police are equipped to execute that option, in a ‘gun control’ world…

  • Bill S

    You voice them succinctly. That’s why I brought up the McVey example.

    People gonna hate and kill. Gun control won’t stop it.

  • Dave_A

    Anymore than a fuel-injected car is ‘exotic’….

    Apparently, according to the ‘you don’t need that for hunting’ crowd, gun design is supposed to be frozen in the year 1898 (when the modern bolt-action was invented by the Germans, in the form of the K-98 Mauser). Any gun not built like an 1898 infantry rifle, is ‘exotic’…

    The fact is, gun design has improved, just like car design… Modern guns are more reliable, lighter, and more durable (wood and steel require extra care to prevent cracking and rust, as opposed to plastic and/or aluminum)….

    The debate over the scope of the 2nd A will always be ongoing – usually because the entis love to use ad-absurdum arguments like ‘Do you have a right to a nuke’….

    My personal view: Arms means small arms – anything that can be borne and employed by a single individual without need of set-up or tear-down….

    Larger weapons are ‘ordnance’. and not covered by the 2nd, HOWEVER they were legal for private citizens to own in the past even if no ‘right’ exists (hence the well known private ownership or field artillery and personal armed ships), and ARE legal to own now (just fill out your NFA paperwork and pay your $200 stamp – and you can have your very own 105mm howitzer, if you can find someone who will sell you one)…

  • reggie1

    You “just get sick and tired of the same old arguments being conducted every time some sort of horrible crime occurs” and I know what you mean. I cringe a little every time a control advocate claims that armed patrons would have shot up each other while defending themselves.

    The greatest value of being armed is not its self-defense, but its deterrence.

    A crazed madman can have tragic and horrific effect when he acts. Fortunately, crazed madmen are among the rarest occurrences. A very natural ongoing occurrence is the horrible tragedies that are avoided because criminals don’t know whether their intended victims are armed. Tragedies capture countless headlines and stories for weeks on end. Tragedies averted are never reported.

  • avgjo

    Of course, gun control does work. Ask the experts (as the bumper sticker goes)…

    Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot.

    You’re a self-admitted leftist. Your president (sure as hell not mine) started his campaign in the living room of a man who thought (and I’m sure still thinks) it’s cool to send millions of his fellow citizens to extermination if they don’t get with the leftist program. THAT’S why the left pushes gun control. Sure, the movement is filled with mere useful idiots whose lack of historical pespective and basic reasoning skills leads them to believe that the country would actually be better off with massive gun control. But the people who actually make the policies want control; that’s the common theme in leftist piece of trash legislation.

  • leftylurker

    And I’m not a “commie” although that insult is so outdated as to honestly be kind of cute..

    Your response isn’t really all that coherent, but by using context I think you’re saying I’m advocating for a totalitarian murderous socialism. I just want to come out and say that I categorically do not support that.

    My real question is, do you really think there should be 0 restrictions on owning any weapons any person desires?

  • leftylurker

    Thank you. Especially with regard to the evolution of technology. It would be silly to lock our view of what a “arms” are to the technology of the 18th century.

    My buddy/co-worker has a bunch of .50 Cal machine guns. They’re a bit in between ordinance and small arms, imo, but I have 0 problem with him having them. I have way less of a problem with them than I do with hyper extended smg magazines and armor piercing ammo. And I’m not saying that those should necessarily be illegal either, but the rights/responsibility analysis on those is more complicated.

  • funwithknives

    the old tried and true “…they want to own an Atomic Bomb or a Bazooka, or a Howitzer …” bromides.

    You honestly think that virtually every American only supports owning a squirrel/deer rifle and a Buck Knife?
    Don’t get out much ,do you…?

    I would “probably say” you are clueless and have proved it, in writing for all to see.

    Oh, and when you speak of ‘Allowed’ in your prattle about Gun Ownership and Right To Keep And Bear Arms,know that I already have the Right, was born with it, and will never ‘allow’ it to be Unconstitutionally taken from me.
    What Percentage Of Americans ‘Probably’ espouse that?
    No doubts it beats hell out of 0.01 percent………..

    To ‘regulate’ in the vernacular of The Founding Fathers was “…to put in good order…”, not ‘Schumer gets to salivate’.
    Nor you, it would seem…..

  • avgjo

    I simply stated what I believe to be the intellectual foundation for those who (a) promulgate gun control AND (b) actually have thought it out.That would be the people I referred to as belonging to the ilk of Ayres. Most of the rest fall conveniently into the category of useful idiots. It’s up to you to determine into which category you fall. Anyone who can read (and by ‘read’, I don’t mean sound out words and vaguely understand them) would have gathered that.

    Outdated? Only if you regard such serious matters as issues of style. That in and of itself speaks volumes.

    Isn’t coherent? Do you know the meaning of the word? Your usage would indicate you don’t.

    I do think restrictions should be very very, ahem,, restricted. If someone is a law-abiding citizen, why not?

  • Common_Cents

    I doubt that business would be considered.

    “No guns allowed on this premises” would be similar to having a sign in your front yard that says “This home does not have a security system”.

  • Common_Cents

    He didn’t even go down guns blazing. Imagine the lives saved if a trained citizen did have a weapon there initially instead of resorting to a butter knife.

    People get a false sense of security with police for whatever reason. People must realize police are generally there to write up a report and much less prevention during a crime.

  • funwithknives

    But, there at the end when you discuss ‘if You had a gun’,..etc.
    This is why those who carry are asked repeatedly, pre-permit, if they are capable of this action.
    This is Why instructors make a point of reminding students of the finality of their action, the mental results that can occur, and the deep-down commitment this possession, and use requires.
    In Michigan this is part and parcel of Pre-Permit instruction.
    Those that choose No , walk-way.
    The decision To Carry and then doing so, makes it plain you thought it through. You can always keep it concealed and do nothing.
    But that isn’t why you went through ‘all that’, is it ?

    You Got Prepared , for self-conceived eventualities. …and you’ll follow through as you were trained and circumstances dictate.

    Thanks for your diary.
    It’s Realism at it’s Heart. …and I’m a Realism kinda’ guy

  • leftylurker

    Makes a lot more sense to me now.

    I think we probably agree on substance. I do think there should be very limited restrictions on the rights of sane, law abiding citizens to own arms.

    And to not over post, I’ll go ahead and concede the point below to funwithknives that my usage of the term “allow” to own weapons as opposed to “have the right to” own a weapon was Constitutionally wrong.

  • plwinteregg

    …and consider that the 2nd Amendment is not about crime (or lack thereof), murder, or even hunting and sports such as trap shooting.

    Taken in the context of the Declaration of Independence “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it…”, and the inclusion of the right of Militia in the Amendment, it is about the People being capable of defending themselves against a tyrannical government. The Founders believed that a well-armed populace would be a strong deterrent against many possible future harms.

    In other words, the 2nd is all about the populace having the right to posses deadly force. In know that makes many folks squeamish, especially those who would say it is ‘reasonable’ to outlaw AK-47′s and the like, but until the 2nd is revoked or further amended, we need to consider what the 2nd meant to the writers.

    James Wilson wrote in 1790: “The first and governing maxim in the interpretation of a statute is to discover the meaning of those who made it.”

    We can try to “evolve” or breath “life” into the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment, or we can try to understand what was intended at the time they were written and ratified.

    Just sayin’….

  • Don T.

    I think you are just about right on, here. This debate over guns in a civil society will continue. But I only differ with you in one respect, and maybe we don’t differ: we on the side of law and order and civil society, and also on the side of arming civilians, must still engage in this debate. I don’t think you are saying, do not engage. We must engage, we have to respond to the emotion and lack of logic and bending to government control by the other side, with facts and reasoned argument and appealing for liberty on our side.

    One more thing. We have to engage our state legislators. That is where the real battles are being fought. In many states, like NY and Illinois and Calif. and Mass. and NJ, that will be a long, protracted war. But these states are oppressive in gun restrictions and gross violations of the 2d Amendment. I just wish I knew how to help my fellow gun rights advocates in those anti-gun states. I’m thankful to live in Georgia, where we are making progress here, year by year.

  • Bill S

    …and I apologize for that.

    I did not mean to imply we shouldn’t engage. It was more of an Ecclesiastes message – everything is the same under the sun.

    There is no harm in continuing to engage, and in fact I think our continued engagement has gradually moved the needle to the side of gun rights.

    My disgust is with those who try to exploit these incidents to support their side. The disgust extends in both directions. Let the pain die down and then use a particular incident as but one proof point in the larger case.

  • Don T.

    I completely agree with you. This debate over guns can be tiresome, as you suggest, when the anti-gun side is ready to use gun related atrocities to further their political agenda. It can get downright despicable.

  • mackd

    I’ve always felt uneasy when gun grabbers start using the work ‘militia’ for one reason; They don’t exist anymore. The ‘New’ militia is our National Guard. And the National Guard is now under Federal control, not the States. Don’t believe me? How many governor’s have the power to tell the Feds; “I won’t allow MY National Guardsmen to go to country X” and see if those troops aren’t there when the Feds tell them to be there. There are no militias, the State Militia’s (National Guard) are under Federal control. There is only one force out there able to take on an out of control and repressive Federal Government, the PEOPLE.

  • streiff

    I refer you to Title 10 USC which governs the armed forces.

    10 USC ? 311 – Militia: composition and classes

    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are?
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

    So, yes, there still is a militia.

    The National Guard has to be federalized before carry out federal missions. The last time I can think of a National Guard unit being federalized over the objections of the governor of their state was when Eisenhower federalized the Arkansas National Guard to desegregate schools there.

    During the past decade there have been instances where state Guard units identified for mobilization and service in Iraq/Afghanistan have not been federalized because of a need at home.

    As a follow on point, I’m not exactly sure what your last sentence means. Want to clarify it a bit?

  • jyalai

    The law enforcement officers who went to Concord in 1775 to carry out a legal search and seizure warrant, were looking for a large store of gun powder and cannon when they were cut down by an unauthorized extremist militia known as the minutemen. I’m thinking when those extremists got around to writing their own governing rules, they were thinking about much more than guns.

  • leftylurker

    What does this really mean though Streiff? I’m not as well versed in this stuff as I would like to be.

    Because presumably Article II Section I gives the President command over all militias? That seems kind of odd given what I understand the Founder’s intent to be in drafting the 2nd Amendment.

  • Bill S
  • kowalski

    It’s obvious that what the 2nd Amendment debate is going to be about in the next ten years and ever after in this century is the “need” for citizens to have firearms to defend themselves.

    Obviously if you live in a city like New York, where the police are monitoring the population 24/7/365 with Microsoft software and using cameras, radiation detectors, chemical sniffers, microphones and who knows what else – you are obviously taken care of. Therefore, you don’t need to own a weapon, and you won’t be allowed to own one.

    That is what “reasonable restrictions” are going to mean under the ubiquitous surveillance state, and it’s quite clear (and has been for a long time) that *that* is the real threat to the 2nd Amendment and the RKBA.

    Because if Bloomberg can get up in front of a television camera and say:

    “Listen, we watch everything and we *anticipate* crime. There is no reason for anyone to own a gun except the criminals because there are no legitimate sporting purposes in New York City.”

    It is comprehensive surveillance technology that is next going to be used as a pretext to disarm Americans. The logic (and Moore’s law, and the software and hardware) are inescapable.

    Get ready now.

  • kowalski

    Bloomberg is partnering with Microsoft so that they can achieve economies of scale on the “total surveillance system” they’re establishing in New York City. So it will be a budget item on the priorities lists of increasingly smaller municipalities across the country. Then you run a few thousand drones and hang a few dirigibles over the country in strategic places and you can say to the Congress: “We’re watching everyone. We’re anticipating crime as it happens. There is no need for anyone to own a weapon and we are going to drive the cost of them owning one into the stratosphere.”

    That’s what is going to happen. Mark my words.

  • kowalski

    “You want to own a gun? Then you’re going to pay $5,000 a year for the license and $3,000 a year for the insurance and $10 a bullet when you shoot one. Or you’re going to be a cop, or a member of the military.”

    And that’s it!

  • kowalski

    Is going to be the not-so-obvious.

    Right now, all the rifles, pistols and shotguns that Americans can buy are – almost without exception – purely mechanical devices. That means that if you know how to fire the gun, it’s a machine that will fire the bullet.

    That is going to change. The firearm is one of the last purely mechanical devices that is going to be forced to incorporate fire-control mechanisms that are managed by computers. An interim step to eradicating individual ownership of weapons is going to be to require them to have electromechanical firing mechanisms that are keyed to permissive action credentials. First it will be biometric and then, it will also be RFID.

    The cities will justify it by saying: “When we have to worry about being confronted with firepower, we want our firepower to be overwhelming. And therefore we reserve the right to TURN OFF the ability of individually owned firearms in any area we designate as an Emergency Zone.”

    Don’t think that will happen? It already did in New Orleans after Katrina in a much cruder form. The entire city was swept – lawful gun owners, especially.

    At some point the “progressives” amongst us will say: “Well, it only makes sense that firearms have permissive action links on them.” And in order to get a license you will have to buy one of them. At that point, my guess is that whenever a law enforcement agency wants to “turn off” everyone’s guns, they’ll just broadcast a signal.

    Anyone’s gun that isn’t disabled is automatically a felon.

    It’s coming to a world near you….

  • kowalski

    As Larry Niven will tell you: “Ethics change with technology.”

    That cuts both ways. As the technology to disable firearms used by individuals increases, firearms manufacturers are going to be under increasing pressure to incorporate them into their products. All it takes is an act of Congress. In fact, it’s old news.

    Biometric handguns have been in development at the New Jersey Institute of Technology (Newark, NJ) for a long time:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Gun

    The smart gun is supposed to:

    Reduce the likelihood of unintentional injuries to children
    Preventing teenage suicides and homicides.
    Limit the violent acts committed by criminals using stolen guns.
    Protect law enforcement officers from criminals grabbing their firearms during a struggle.

    If chip failure occurs one of two things can happen:

    For Civilian use, the gun will be set to not fire.
    For Law enforcement use, the safety system will be bypassed, and the gun will be allowed to fire.

  • Bill S

    You could just print your own.

  • kowalski

    It’ll be one of those “reasonable restrictions” that 3D printers won’t be able to do.

    It will *not* however stop people with 3D printers and machining equipment of the more pedestrian and conventional kind, however. The point is that you won’t be able to do it lawfully.

    It almost pains me to see that article because I know that’s the first thing they’re going to regulate.

  • kowalski

    The truth behind all the mystique is that firearms are inherently simple devices. Most of the good designs are more than 50 years old at this point. There have been very few real advancements in what I refer to as “basic” firearms in the past 50 years. There have been improvements in metallurgy, manufacturing, machining, assembly, specifications, certainly in ballistics and reliability, quality control, etc., etc., but the basic design of a 1911 .45 ACP pistol is … more than 100 years old. So someone will continue to make them because they’re very effective. You just won’t be able to own one of them legally any more, just like people in Britain can’t.

  • kowalski

    From understanding how easy it is going to be for legislators to regulate them out of existence. The fact is that almost all the firearms you can buy today are very simple machines. They’re certainly not as complicated or even as difficult to maintain as an IBM Selectric typewriter. They’re not even as mechanically complicated as a bicycle. And the way they are regulated by governments is going to change drastically by adding LOTS of complex circuits to them.

  • leftylurker

    This is my libertarian sci-fi fantasy in the flesh! Ty!

  • kowalski

    Yes, they need to be engineered properly and machined properly and put together well if they’re going to function reliably. But they’re *not* complicated machines – and in fact, they could be made simpler and less reliable without a lot of effort.

    An AK-47 is about the most dumb-ass simple rifle design anyone has ever seen. It’s ugly, anyone with early 20th century manufacturing capability can build one, and it’s so reliable that it’s the firearm of choice for about 3/4ths of the world’s people.

    Handguns are simple, simple simple. Yeah, if you want to spend $3000 on one you can, but the basic principle of a blowback action can be had in a pistol that will get the job done, CHEAP:

    http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/handguns/9%20mm/hi_point_9mm.html

    It ain’t pretty, but a lot of people can buy them. And they should. They’re going to be the first ones to be driven out of business, though.

  • 10ab

    I grew up in the Midwest…but can remember only vaguely my dad hunting rabbits. Never in my adult life have I known anyone socially that would carry a gun to a theater or God forbid a social event. Where I live they would be looked upon as a crackpot. There are no guns in my home not because I am against the 2nd but because it would not even be in the realm of thought to do so. Good people on both sides of the debate…but you are correct…there will never be agreement.

  • kowalski

    Don’t forget that after it became obvious with 2-D color laser printers back in the 1990s that people might use them to print currency, all of the major printer manufacturers (including Xerox) introduced algorithms into their print engines to leave ineradicable signatures that could be identified on every single sheet of paper that goes through the machine.

    On many Xerox machines, it’s a very faint signature of Yellow dots out of CMYK.

    If you scan a dollar bill and print it out on a Xerox 6060, you will get nailed by the Secret Service every time they look at one. In fact it’s not even possible to print a reasonable fasc. of any US currency any longer. But the basic technology for adding the signature to the prints was done *before the machines were sold*.

    That’s why very few people have ever really used color laser printers to duplicate currency. In addition to not having the right paper (which is special) the machines themselves add a signature to every document that comes out of the machine. It’s built into the firmware of the laser engine.

    Anyone who prints a gun with a 3-D printer is going to have a similar imprint on those devices, trust me. They’ll be traceable and trackable right back to the machine that “printed” them.

  • avgjo

    I love guns, although I only own one. I understand history, and I understand why the FF put the second amendment in there.

    As much as I love guns and gun ownership, I think it’s been forgotten in America, the most powerful weapons in the world are the tongue, the pen and the thinker. If the majority of people in this country were persuaded to see gun control freaks for what they really are, these degenerates wouldn’t dare utter their ideas publicy for fear of ostracism or worse. Sadly, speakers, writers and pundits in this country have fallen far short of the mark.

  • kowalski

    It sounds pretty grim. Well, that’s on purpose. I believe in giving people I love the bad news first, so they can better deal with it and aren’t surprised by it.

    I will say one other thing for tonight: Jeff Quinn (who I also admire a great deal) said a lot of the same things about the Colorado shooter that I did – and he makes sense.

    Here’s the article:

    http://www.gunblast.com/MakingtheShot.htm

    “Having a gun is not enough. You need to know how to effectively use that weapon, under stress and in the dark. If your training consists of punching paper at the local range, that is not enough.”

    I sound contrarian here when it comes to guns in direct proportion to how much I think people need to know what’s coming down the pike. Or at least I try to.

  • kowalski

    A lot of people don’t think about a lot of things they should be thinking about.

    The people who run their governments most assuredly DO think about them, well in advance.

  • kowalski

    All the people I know who own guns are the more thoughtful people I know. It’s the ones who have a caricature of it – a stereotype – in their own minds who are not thoughtful.

    But I agree with you – the best “weapon” 2nd Amendment people have is dialogue. I’m not afraid of talking about owning weapons because I know what I’m talking about and more importantly, I know *who* I’m talking about, including myself. It’s occurred to me many times to ask the question: “Should I own a gun?” … “Why do I own guns?” … “In what way should I understand my ownership of guns?” … “What would I do if I had to use my gun(s) in a defensive situation?” … “Why do I think it’s important for people to be able to own guns in the same way I do?” Lots of philosophical questions, practical questions, and existential questions that I ask myself not just once but continuously. I have my Ruger SR9 sitting right next to me as I type this, and I’m glad I do. Loaded, with a round in the chamber and the safety on, that is how I pick up that pistol every night and place it where I can get to it at night if I need it.

    I’ve always said here at Redstate that anyone considering carrying a gun on their person, into a public place – concealed or not – has a great deal more to consider than the first 30 seconds of thought. It isn’t a simple thing, but neither is it beyond the vast majority of people’s capacity to handle. It’s a serious responsibility, but millions of people do it every single day without any trouble at all. It’s ridiculous and insulting to use the acts of madmen to somehow impugn them.

  • avgjo

    And i wasn’t trying to imply they shouldn’t think about such points. I’ve tried to raise similar issues with many good conservatives I know, and they treat me like a worrywort at best and a paranoiac at worst. But look at the proliferation of loss of freedom since 9/11 under the guise of ‘security’ and ‘protecting’ us.

    100% agree. Great post.

  • funwithknives

    you may have posted , is utter tripe and garbage?
    Let’s take a trip down memory lane and see for ourselves, shall we?

    * How many Gun Laws are on the books right this instant?
    Existing ‘Limited Restrictions’ nationwide , counting all the federal and states in a lump, amount to over 20,000.
    So, where does THAT stop? Just how many More are required and of what sort?
    You’re not expounding on what is Now Vs. what you deem Needed.
    The thought is Vacuous until you get specific. …and you do not.
    Curious……you speak of ‘coherent’ and illustrate an obvious FAIL.
    You speak of Substance and provide None. Fail # Two.

    You’re just not very good at this stuff ,are ya’…?

  • streiff

    when they are on federal service. When they aren’t on federal service they are commanded by the state governor through his Adjutant General.

  • funwithknives

    Fabrication and Machining Business you know, but Wifey knows scads and has since 1976. Her bonafides simply amaze me at times and is essentially self-taught through exposure and experiences, too many to list .My trickle-down info, is really something to behold.

    Any, repeat Any limit on what Digital Controllers might be limited to stop/not do, can be over-ridden. The industry is Filled with some of the most inventive minds you will ever meet. She brings me every trade journal imaginable, and the advances just never quit.

    Now, we have CrowdSourcing and this moves the target , magnitudes of levels forward.

    How’s that ‘Lawfully’ thing working out with The War on Drugs?
    This will be no different.

  • Tbone

    And, yes, this country does not need any more like you. You are part of the cancer that is killing this great Nation.

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    -nt.

  • streiff

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWsE9jvwjLA

    This gives the context. Cut to 13:00 if you don’t have time to listen to it all, though it is well worth the time.

  • wilgolden

    Sterilization is, after all, what Oh! So! Caring! Libruls advocated for the feeble minded and afflicted, after all.

    Before the 1968 Gun Control Act, prisoners were given back their firearms upon discharge from the Pen. That is, within living memory.

    The proper way to regulate weapons is NOT TO. Any firearm that is portable and usable by one man should be unquestionably legal. This would exclude Joe six-pack from having a working nuclear weapon, a crew served mortar, VX, or an attack helicopter. Otherwise, damn near anything should be unregulated.

    Before the 1934 National Firearms act, one could order a Thompson from the Auto-Ordinance company through the mail. The only Federal restrictions were “Y’all got the money for that?”

    The Second Amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting, target practice, or even defense of our homes. It was to prevent the Government from ever attempting to devolve into tyranny.

    Our Founders Vision was that everyone be armed with what the Soldier carried. That would mean that we arguably have the right to demand that we be issued fully automatic M-16′s from the Federal Armory. Under the auspices of the 14th amendment, all State and Local laws contrary to the Second Amendment are unlawful as well.

    The actual founding of this country was not the 4th of July, 1776 (or the 2nd of July, which is when the Declaration was actually signed). This became a Nation on April 19, 1775, when Armed Civilians met at Lexington and Concord to resist the illegal order of the Military Governor of Massachusetts Colony, General Thomas Gage. General Gage had sent a company of his Redcoats to confiscate the guns of the uppity Colonists from those towns, in response to their resistance to his other illegal orders. (You may have heard part of this tale in the poem “Paul Revere’s Ride”, although Longfellow completely missed the part that there were about 19 other riders out the evening of 18 April, going from town to town alerting the populace.

    THIS was the proximate cause of the Second Amendment being written the way it was. The Militia, at the time of the writing was encoded in law as “all able bodied men, aged 15 to 45.” Due to various Supreme Court decisions, this is now believed to include women as well, and go to age 60 or thereabouts.

    Now, pull your head from your head from your 4th point of contact, grow up, and be a CITIZEN instead of a SUBJECT. Get your navel out of the way, listen carefully, and you may learn something. If that prospect doesn’t meet with your approval, well, Delta’s ready when you are. Take your Commie butt to North Korea, or Cuba, or some other Workers Paradise, where you can feel safe from the oppression of having to think for yourself.

  • wilgolden

    n/t

  • Don T.

    Thanks for all your contributions here. I read them all with interest.

    There is, and will continue to be, lots of debate about how armed citizens can deal with this kind of atrocity. Or, even if they should. I agree that more training is always good and highly recommended. I do think there are some who believe that all armed citizens must have certain amounts of training and practice, before they leave their homes armed. While I recommend training as a great thing, and the more the better, I think it is most important that citizens be armed, with a weapon they know how to shoot reasonably well, even if they only shoot twice a year at paper targets. I also think it is important for armed citizens to know the laws, to be conscious of where every bullet may go, to know something of tactics, ie, taking cover, observing, waiting for an opportunity, and being prepared to boldly attack if a good chance presents itself. Having several armed citizens with reasonable skill in shooting in that theater, or any public place, in most circumstances is as good as one highly trained shooter with lots of skill and proficiency in all conditions. We will wait forever to have all armed citizens trained to a high level, this is not attainable. Having said that, Jeff Quinn’s words, your words, and many others advocating for training, are valuable to take heed of, in this discussion.

  • wilgolden

    Black powder is easy.

    I will always be armed, no matter who approves/disapproves.

  • Michael M. Keohane

    the Second Amendment does not cover either hunting or personal defense. The people of that time could not imagine anyone denying the right to hunt or to defend oneself. Only now, with a highly undereducated and overindoctrinated public, can politicians and anti-gun supporters make such claims without their neighbors breaking out the “tar & feathers.”

  • leftylurker

    I’ll stop talking to you.

    Thank you for the earlier point though.

  • funwithknives

    “where are your specifics”?
    IZ-ZAT ‘sensical’ enough for ya’?

    Don’t go away mad, LL. Read a few books and come back stronger.

    …and thank you for deigning it acceptable to speak to me in any form. I felt blessed for some small while…… SEE YA’!!

  • http://joeykelly.net mmlj4

    It’s a minor point perhaps, but the article in question never bothers to describe the Kirpan that the Sikh used when he stood up to that lunatic. A Kirpan is a small ceremonial knife that all Sikhs are supposed to wear. It’s often dulled (to allay random suspicion), and quite possibly about as deadly as a butter knife, but IMHO the reporter is either clueless or dismissive of that brave man and his attempted action, and of the Sikh religion as a whole.

  • Dave_A

    The thing is, most people don’t know this…

    No pistol round (and by definition, a SMG (submachinegun) fires pistol ammo) will penetrate body armor reliably. Especially not the common ‘hollow point’ (JHP) rounds carried by most private citizens and law-enforcement (these are, contrary to the media’s ‘Black Talon’ scare, the WORST performers against armor).

    There are some that CAN penetrate body armor under the right conditions (or when used vs a low-end armor vest) – some very old (.30 Tokarev, .38 Super, .357 and .44 Magnum), but in general all pistol rounds are all abjectly unreliable against body armor.

    Almost ALL common RIFLE ammunition DOES penetrate body armor, but it does so because of the velocities involved, not because the rounds are designed to be armor-piercing. Absent the slower rifle cartridges like 30-30 and 30-carbine (which almost fall into the ‘pistol’ category, except for the fact they are only commonly used in rifles), there is simply so much velocity behind a rifle bullet that it is going through all but the heaviest body armor (Level III or IV with ceramic inserts – think Army-issue).

    Military ammunition designated as ‘AP’ is, again, rifle ammunition (and it exists in 5.56mm, 7.62mm, 30-06, and .50 – as well as various cannon projectiles for combat vehicles). There is no ‘AP’ 9mm or .45ACP projectile, nor has there been.

    Experiments in making pistol-caliber weapons efffective against body armor (such as the FN 5.7mm pistol) essentially reduce a rifle round to fit a pistol – sacrificing range and lethality for penetration. Further, the metals used to form the ‘special’ 5.7mm bullet make it less effective once it penetrates. Thanks to laws on the books since the 80s, all 5.7mm ammunition sold to civillians in the US is of conventional construction and offers no armor-piercing capabilities (but is more effective on unarmored targets).

  • Dave_A

    A ceremonial knife they all carry (it’s an article of their faith)…

    And yes, the nutball shooter didn’t have much will to fight after he himself was shot… Traded fire with police just enough to get them to shoot him, then took his own life… Almost like he was suicidal to start with, and never intended to walk away…

    Fortunately, suicide bombing hasn’t taken off in the US… That would have been worse….

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