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Excommunicate the Bishops.

Promoted from the diaries

Most of my writing is on foreign policy. There are few other topic areas other than the law on which I’m comfortable writing. However, as streiff notes, I, like most other Catholics, got to hear a heartfelt letter from my Bishop — a living examplar of St. John Chrysostom’s famous (possibly apocryphal) maxim — explaining that clear out of nowhere, somehow, the Obama Administration decided to make Catholic institutions pay for abortifacents, birth control, and sterilization procedures, all of which are actually explicitly mortal sins in my faith, which is to say, one can be in danger of Hell merely for helping to provide them.

As Sts. Nicholas and Chrysostom would not, in their unenlightened days, have likely had warm feelings for His Excellency, it is perhaps incumbent upon me to note that my Bishop neglected a few details in the sermon he had our deacon read aloud. His Excellency was absolutely silent on the possible election of a man who actively defended the post-uterine execution of neonatal infants, which I ascribe to moral laziness and cowardice, though it may have been instead interest in funding a short lived billboard campaign in Atlanta extolling Catholics who believe him and the Pope evil to come on back for a quick round of communion. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is a self-professing Catholic who is one of the most ardent defenders of the abortion license in our country. Obamacare was passed through the good offices of numerous nominally-Catholic Senators and Representatives, despite warnings from Catholic groups (such as the Knights of Columbus, who fought tooth and nail) and without so much as a peep of the same from our esteemed Bishops, that maybe, just maybe, the Obama Administration might be vaguely interested in making free abortion on demand and contraceptives available to all, conscience exceptions be damned.

No pun.

Instead, in that pastoral letter, there was a general note that this was bad, and we should all be aware of it. In the background, I believe I heard someone dropping bread into a bowl of milk. I may have also heard someone washing his hands before a condemned man, but I’m not sure about that.


Back when there was a New Ledger, I wrote a now long-forgotten piece excoriating the Bishops in this country for complicity in its passage, for not speaking up, for not excommunicating the public officials who actively fight for the abortion license despite the infallible teachings of our Church — and by extension, for enabling a culture of license that enables the Culture of Death. (Piece stolen here; TNL no longer publishes essays.)

I stand by every word, and would like to add a few things. Let me start with the most basic one.

You can all, each of you, and I say this after a week of prayerful meditation and with all of the respect I can give, go straight to the darkest pit in the lowest valley of the Ninth Layer of Hell and burn there.

It was easy to sell out the unborn, wasn’t it? To just wish away an infallible teaching that — let’s be honest — has been such a headache since a Catholic Supreme Court Justice helped its mass breaking, and Catholic Democrats abandoned everything else to protect that breach, right? To let others commit a sin that our Church treats as so grave that it incurs the automatic sanction of excommunication? All in return for a goal you’ve shared with your Democrat masters since the 1940s — a chance to drive healthcare costs through the roof with the fig leaf of social caring. All so you could work with the sorts of people who are elected to office by publicly calling you theocrats and misogynists for more-or-less upholding the two-thousand-year-old Tradition of our Church.

Thirty pieces of silver must buy one Hell of a lot more for you than it does for me.

Who among you has stepped forward to say, Whoops! Or, We are infallible on matters of faith expressed through the Tradition or through an ecumenical Council, but we can err on policy, and hoo-boy, did we blow this one. Who among you spoke out last week and said, Attention my flock: I must now inform you that the Democratic Party has proven once and for all that if you vote for a Democrat in this country, you engage in material cooperation with evil. We will now be holding weekly mass Confession to handle the backlog until it clears.

Because that is truth. In 2009 and 2010, nominally faithful Catholics who value all of the policy choices you do — labor unions, forced charity, high rates of taxation, urban ghettoes, and of course, universal “health care” — and who claimed to be ardent defenders of the unborn sold out to a one, sacrificed millions of babies and betrayed the infallible teaching of their faith so they could get one gigantic step closer to the social justice you so crave.

And for that, for that moment when they put aside their baptismal and confirmation vows, repeated every Easter, and their recitation of whatever version of the Nicene Creed you’ve settled on this week, your response was … applause. Silence. Satisfaction. A professed willingness to work with the Administration.

You made all of this possible. For almost my entire life, you have given my fellow Catholics every reason to believe they can freely sin, and hey, no problem, so long as they favor higher taxation and government spending. They can murder the unborn, and I have had all of two homilies, two, in my entire time as a Catholic, which is to say from birth and for the thirty-five years after, in parishes and dioceses across the country, in which a priest has said, If you have had, caused, or aided in obtaining an abortion, and you take communion today, you will go to Hell. You look out into your emptying pews, terrified of the wood you see and the flesh you don’t, through families of one, two, or sometimes amazingly three children, and think, Well, at least they’re still coming, as if you do not understand the connection between these things.

In the wake of the sex abuse scandal, I got to hear read to me and my wife and small baby a heartfelt letter from a bishop not even in office when the terrible events at issue took place, making a sincere apology. In 2006, I got to get lectured at Easter about the importance of having lots of illegal immigrants in our country, from the same Bishop who told me last week he’s kinda confused about what happened with this whole Obama thing. As a child, the only time I read of the bishops taking a unified stand was on the evil of Ronald Reagan attempting to dismantle the greatest threat Christianity has known since the height of the Ottoman Empire.

While I’m to the left of many of the readers and writers here on the issue of illegal immigration and how to resolve it, I’m struck by the fact that my Church seems to care more about defending the right to stay here of people whose first act on entering this country is to break its laws — a right not dogmatically defined by my faith — and on the evil of producing nuclear weapons than what it by its very teaching describes as the slaughter of one million innocent babies year in and year out. I am utterly appalled to realize that they are either too gullible, too cowardly, too stupid, or too dishonest with themselves and others to realize that if they tell Catholics that abortion can be traded off for more social welfare, a significant number of Catholics will make that trade, today, now, this instant.

You have materially cooperated with evil, and I have yet to hear mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. (Try the older Confiteor if you prefer: I confess to Almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. In my thoughts, and in my words; in what I have done, and what I have failed to do.)

You are abetting scandal. You are aiding in the all-but-literal poisoning of political discourse in this country.

And you are lying. You are lying by your words, by your acts, by your omissions. Whatever your rationales, you hide from the truth of what has been before you for forty years, and you aid in that deception to your flock.

And the net result is that you now need to either (1) give in; (2) dump all of your employees into public healthcare (a double win, right?); or (3) disband. Given how you acted when Mitt Romney’s reign in Massachusetts forced you into the same corner, I fully expect (1). Heck, if you can provide abortifacents and prophylactics in New England, why not in Arizona?

In a purer time, you would have been haled before an Ecumenical Council and been required to give an account of yourself, or been summarily excommunicated on the spot. In an emergency, the Pope would do this thing.

I was born into the Faith. I was confirmed before my twelfth birthday. I nearly applied to seminary twice. I married in the Church. I am raising my many-more-than-two-children in the Faith. And every time I see something like this come down the pike, complete with passive-voice verbs and hand washing everywhere, the only things keeping me from joining one of the Orthodox Churches are my dislike of incense, my desire to avoid being as dim as poor Donatist Rod Dreher, and my firm belief that the Church teaches Truth, even though its princes are men by genetics only.

But as you now reap what you have sown for twice my lifetime, I say, with all the charity I can muster, that you can rot.

COMMENTS

  • http://JamesonLewis3rd.com JamesonLewis3rd

    God Bless You

    • altexas

      A bit wordy I think.

      • Christopher Badeaux

        You’re more generous than I.

        • altexas

          Chris, what are you doing here? Go away. We are talking about you behind your back. Shoo!

  • Stan(ley) Pruss

    See the Jan 30 entry at http://barnhardt.biz/index.cfm

    • smagar

      In Arizona in 2008, the Phoenix bishop held firm on the life issue. (He still does). The Tucson bishop, however, was more “flexible.” According to the local media, he was more understanding and pragmatic.

      That’s all the pro-choice Catholic vote in Arizona needed.

  • richardlrice

    I am not a Roman Catholic, but -

    Can anyone explain to me why those Roman Catholic leaders with the power of excommunication, and required to uphold the teachings of the church, have not done their due diligence to excommunicate those who publicly oppose the church and it’s teachings?

    Is the threat of losing money or prominence or congregants on a ledger sheet so powerful that the Roman Church is willing to have truth compromised, the pope ignored, and the most helpless among us slaughtered? or is there something I’ve missed?

    • kipling

      Plenty of evangelical leaders and other religious leaders have fallen to the same temptation.

      • richardlrice

        So sadly true!

        But I see a primary difference. The pope claims to be Christ’s representative on Earth and the only one to hold the power of excommunication.

        No modern evangelical leader, to my knowledge, claims to speak for all evangelicals or claims the power of excommunication.

        The bishops of the Roman Church carefully maintain the celibacy of the priesthood and that it may be obtained only by a man. At the same time, these bishops refuse to carry out the teachings of the Church and the direction of the Vicar of Christ when it comes to punishing rebellious political leaders. I don’t understand that.

        • freemanja1991

          And excommunicate Democratic politicians who are clearly standing up against the Catholic church.

          • Ausonius

            You are quite right: why are the infanticidal Biden, the Kennedys, and other such “Catholic” Dem politicians allowed into a church?

            The author of the topic echoes things I have written here before: the Catholic bishops have stayed silent for too long, and if priests do in fact start to preach about this contradiction, I know that it is very likely the local bishop will reprimand him for “interfering in politics.”

            I heard a similar letter in my own local parish: the phrase “Obama administration” was never uttered. Either one heard the “government” or the “administration.” That this monstrosity is pushed by Dems was not mentioned. “Obama” and his minions apparently are not responsible.

            Sometimes what you do NOT say sends a bigger message than what you do say!

          • RedLeader

            Many Republican Catholics do the same as the Democrats, and they are excommunicated as well. Notice that I say “are” and not “should be.” Excommunication does not take the act of a priest or bishop – it is our own actions that excommunicate us, separate us from the Body of Christ. It is the public recognition of this fact that many are asking for.

            Nancy Pelosi has excommunicated herself with her words and actions, just as Rick Santorum did when he campaigned for Arlen Specter. If neither of them has properly confessed and done penance, may God have mercy on their souls.

          • freemanja1991

            make it official, not just let them “excommunicate themselves”

          • RedLeader

            I was merely pointing out the difference

        • Christopher Badeaux

          As to your last paragraph, welcome to having a church staffed by sinners.

        • greeneyeshade

          But I see a primary difference. The pope claims to be Christ

          • jakeofalltrades

            Most denominations of Christianity follow the literal interpretation rather than slapping white out on more than one of the Epistles.

            I have no idea why the verse is there (well, maybe I have suspicions), but I don’t have to understand everything in the Bible to be scared to death of the God described therein and to be wary of interpreting Him in a way that in effect renders some words to have no meaning – as if they weren’t there at all.

            I side with the male-only clergy view. Women can be deacons, though – the Bible is equally clear on that point. And they can be preachers to each other.

          • aesthete

            If “clergy” is in reference to the five-fold ministry, then from a Biblical standpoint, many women were recognized as operating within the roles of prophet and others.

            If you’re referring to the Apostle Paul’s advice to Timothy (“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence”), I don’t think it’s very clear at all that this is a doctrinal point, rather than Paul’s personal, pragmatic advice. Given that the passage goes on to say that salvation for women comes through childbirth (1 Timothy 2:15), something which contradicts both his body of work and many of the passages in the book of Acts, I think that one must allow that Paul was speaking either facetiously or informally to Timothy, as he was to Titus when he quoted Epimenides’ famous paradox, “all Cretans are liars”. Given the presence of females in a leadership role in the early church, under the Old Covenant, and during Jesus’ lifetime, it would seem to me that there is less proof supporting an all-male clergy than there would be to condemn all Cretans as liars from a doctrinal point of view. From a pragmatic standpoint, women were on the whole poorly educated in ancient times, especially when it came to teaching and doctrine in religion. Most Greco-Roman female-centric religious movements were esoteric cults — debauched, mystical, or otherwise bizarre. It is not at all strange to see Paul provide practical counsel for the time, while recognizing the marginal female leadership in the five-fold ministry that existed at the time.

            I have not thus far been convinced that this is a doctrinal point — and as a dude who believes in the gifts of the Spirit, speaking in tongues, and all manner of crazy things, it isn’t a matter of me not being willing to believe and advocate for counter-intuitive things in my role as a Bible-believing Christian.

        • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

          The Pope is not the only one with power to excommunicate

    • altexas

      Excommunication is reserved for public defamation of someone who publicly and intentionally undermines a teaching of the Church. St. Thomas Aquinas was excommunicated by a Bishop in England. In the end, no big whoop. The Bishop was wrong

      Excommunication is mostly a political act rather than a moral judgement. Since most people don’t get the distinction, it just does not serve the purpose it once did.

      Ideas and thoughts are sometimes condemned with the Latin, “anathema sit.” This is a passive subjunctive phrase meaning “let them be dammed.” It is not directive or binding in a final sense. It is more like, ‘For those that believe killing babies is a good idea, we have no objection to them going to hell.’

      • richardlrice

        Then the Church should pronounce anathema upon these people, like former Speaker Pelosi, publicly shame them, and refuse them Communion.

        • altexas

          But since Pelosi represents San Francisco. it would only add to her resume.

    • banzaibob

      Look at the Senate which refuses to do their job and pass a budget. Like the Bishops they are afraid they are going to offend somebdoy and lose their power.

      • scmom

        The Bishops are afraid they will lose their large donors.

  • Adjoran

    Pope Benedict seems to appointing those who are more in line with his theology, like Dolan. It’s a problem that’s been building for decades, and will take some time and probably more than one papacy to correct.

    If not for his instruction, these letters wouldn’t have been read at all.

    I think the reaction to this outrageous overreach will help our process along – and perhaps a correction in American politics as well.

  • papabear

    I write this as a man who has only has questions when it comes to matters of faith.

    I don’t want to comment on contraception other than to say it should be none of my financial responsibility through taxes or insurance.

    I believe that every one of us bears a direct responsibility for life. Every life. From the moment of conception.

    Two times I have looked at my unborn children in my wife’s womb. We felt their movement. They were wonderful and unique before we could see them. They became our responsibility from the moment of conception. There was and is no more important priority in our life.

    I cannot comprehend how some people people see a mere inconvenience. Something that need to be gotten rid of.

    I see unlimited potential.

    Abortion is a violent end to a child’s life. How can that be defined as anything other than murder?

    My little bears are now running around me, shouting and laughing as I type on the keyboard.

    I still see unlimited potential.

    How could someone murder their own children? How can men and women of faith condone murder?

    If their is an afterlife/justice, the rightful consequence is hell.

    Eternity. In. Hell.

  • http://www.ArchitecturalShots.com mdyou

    As I matured as a person and as a businessman, my faith in the Catholic church began to wane. My Faith did not wane – the mixed messages of the Church became apparent.

    Growing up, I remember the Church as the touchstone of guiding principle. It was the institution that instilled a natural reaction to situations, the instant identifier of good and evil.

    As I became politically aware, the Church first confused me and then let me down. Charity is one thing, but the greatest charity is to help the unfortunate to help themselves. To me, the Church bought into the secularization of society in order to retain a ‘seat at the table’. It sold out.

    Perhaps the fact of my inconvenient conception and my resultant birth and adoption is what drove my disappointment. I see this entire issue, and my Church’s complicity as a personal betrayal.

    There are few organizations as wealthy and connected as the Roman Catholic Church. Predictably, it has morphed into just another political entity.

    • Christopher Badeaux

      To assert otherwise is to ignore 2,000 years of history.

      The issue is not its involvement in how men order themselves — that’s politics — but what it does with that involvement.

      • http://www.ArchitecturalShots.com mdyou

        ..you are correct. At 60, I realize that my awakening to this at 30 was late. To observe the last 30 years and try to keep my head above water (as well as the heads of my children) has been all I could handle.

        All I can do is to testify and vote.

        • stumpy

          were able to see the light. I fear many allow their faith to be corrupted by others without taking the time to study God’s word for themselves. Christ wants us to have a personal relationship with Him. Joining ourselves together with other belivers is a big part of this. However, we must not allow ourselves to be lead astray by those who only seek to gain position and power.

          As humans we must be wary of false teachers. We must avoid falling into the trap like the Galatians did. So much of modern Christianity is corrupted by power and money. It is nothing new and has been occuring since the beginning of time. As Christians we must not compromise the Truth for any reason.

  • rkcurtin

    ladder while replacing storm windows on her home in south Minneapolis. She gave birth to a 2 pound baby boy. Fearing the child would not survive, a priest was quickly called to baptize him.

    The baby was so tiny, her wedding ring was large enough to go over the infant’s hand and arm to his shoulder. He was fed milk with an eye dropper.

    The child continued to grow and became a strong man. So strong and athletic he played football for the University of Minnesota until, during the Great Depression, he could no longer afford college.

    He eventually married a good Catholic girl and they had three children, 14 grandchildren and today many great-grandchildren.

    He was my maternal grandfather.

    When I tell this little story to pro-abortionists about how this child survived and had a great life, they really have no comeback to their it isn’t a child until born argument or a woman has a right to choose what to do with her own body nonsense.

    I live in Tucson today, and yes we have a weakling play all sides of politics bishop. It is no wonder the church is going though such trials with weak ‘leadership’.

    And yes, I believe many would sacrifice the unborn for donations, popularity and not rocking the boat.

    How one can hear the Gospel day in and day out and not act to protect the most defenseless in our world, is a crime against humanity, the Church and our God.

  • Blue_State_Refugee

    ….it seems the Church is back to selling indulgences.

    • Christopher Badeaux

      That is not merely untrue, it is defamatory.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        to follow Christ ever more closely in all aspects of individual, and the church as an institution whole activities, than I agree. I think you are using Martin Luther as a symbol of reform. Of course all of us and our institutions can always use a dose of that.

        Many Protestant denominations have split over issues like this and also need “reform” from a Luther-like leader.

  • Uma Richie

    I am so tired of the Church taking hits from the left, and now I see this tirade on a right-of-center website. I hope that you mailed a copy of this to your pastor, to your bishop, to your diocesan newspaper, to EWTN, and to the Vatican because your observations have merit; however, singling out the Catholic leadership for excommunication on the front page of a political website whose readership is not predominantly Catholic is simply hurtful to the Church.

    I can’t lump all the bishops together. I see a generational problem that is improving with the appointment of young Bishops such as Kevin Rhodes of the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend.

    I don’t pretend to know what correspondence has passed between the appropriate bishops and bad eggs like Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and John Kerry.

    The bishops’ teaching must have been strong enough for at least some people to get. Catholics comprise the core of the pro-life movement.

    The bishops haven’t given up on the Blessed Virgin Mary even though Catholics are widely criticized by other Christians for our devotion to Jesus Christ’s mother, whose example in the first chapter of Luke sustains me in the pro-life cause.

    The bishops haven’t repudiated the Church’s teaching on artificial birth control, which has caused many to lapse in the faith or to join other denominations.

    The bishops’ collective reaction to the Obama administration may be a day late and a dollar short, but I’ll trust God and His perfect timing, and direct my criticism in private.

  • kcdude

    Catholic but I am a believer in Christ. I believe a love and respect for life is the basis of a balanced, proper worldview. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts into this message.

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    I’m sure that rant gets you a lot of points in this echo chamber thread, but you know darn well that you are callously painting the sins of some onto the many. But for the efforts of the Church and many of her leaders, the entire fight on abortion would be in a much worse state in this country than it is.

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      Religious leaders, both Catholic and Protestant, have been absent from the fight from almost day one.

      That’s not to say that the Catholic Church, and some Protestant congregations, don’t reach out to help with counseling and other services. They do. They’re the backbone of the pregnancy counseling services that work with women to find alternatives to abortion. I’ve worked with many of them, and they’re unsung foot soldier heroes.

      That said, let’s talk about the leadership. Why haven’t the Bishops either excommunicated pro-abortion politicians, and especially why is Nancy Pelosi allowed to set foot in a Catholic Church? She not only flaunts the teaching of the Church, she has expressly said on many occasions that the Bishops are wrong that the Church doesn’t teach pro-life.

      On the Protestant side, why was Rick Warren allowed to get away with giving Obama a pass on his “above my pay grade” trope in his interview before the election? Why didn’t he confront Obama on his votes to legalize infanticide in IL when he was a State Senator?

      Sorry, but when push comes to shove, religious leaders are not even on the battlefield, let alone the front lines.

      • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

        You act as if excommunication is some sort of litmus test. Its not. Its one tool, prudentially deployed where effective. Any Catholic who puts himself/herself in a state of mortal sin is supposed to go to Confession, whether they have been formally excommunicated or not. The test of how the Church fights is not whether it is tossing around excommunications.

        The USCCB has stood strongly for years in funding abortion alternatives, in promoting a Pro-Life message, in building a culture of life, in explicitly denouncing abortion. It is undeniable we have failed so far in stopping the slaughter, but the fight goes on. As it does also for many good Protestant leaders, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Mormons, etc.

        What about our conservative leaders, by contrast? They actually did have the power to stop abortion – several times. Not less than 4 Supreme Court justices since Roe&Doe have been put up by Republican Presidents which went on to betray the unborn.

        What fight you say?? A group of nuns imprisoned in Massachussetts for praying peacefully outside an abortion clinic, a pregnant teen whose conscience formed in the Church leads her to have her baby, a parent who helps form his/her children’s conscience and respect for life — these are all fruits of the fight. It goes on every day, and the Church has been, and will always be, a huge part of that. With God as my witness, I have seen no greater ally in the fight against the unborn, (where I have spent a lot of my time and energy), than the Catholic Church.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          They are not the focus of this diary. Church leadership is. And Church leadership – both Catholic and Protestant – have been AWOL pretty much since day one on this issue.

          Nuns arrested effects not one politician. They really don’t give a damn, and frankly neither do Catholic parishioners in Massachusetts. If the four Bishops in Massachusetts would stand up and deny communion and other rites – including Catholic burial – to Massachusetts politicians because of their position on abortion, that might make a difference.

          The things you cite are good, but they’re not the leadership that will make a difference in the real abortion fight.

          FYI, my wife and I have been involved in the abortion fight for 30 years, we’ve been involved in the start-up of about a dozen pro-life counseling organizations and individuals from both Catholic and various Protestant churches are fantastic boots on the ground. But it goes no further up.

          Sorry, the Bishops have been absolutely ineffective in this fight. They don’t want to hurt the feelings of their elected Democratic parishioners, and Massachusetts could easily be cited as the worst example of this.

          • Uma Richie

            let’s not forget that murdered late term abortionist George Tiller was an usher for his (non-Catholic) congregation when he was killed. That may be the most egregious example there is.

            Here’s a link to the letter his bishop wrote about the matter:
            http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Office-of-the-Presiding-Bishop/Messages-and-Statements/090601.aspx

          • stumpy

            They are more interested in power, money and influence than in the truth. Jesus never missed an opportunity to point out their hypocracy, even chasing them out of the temple. We unfortunately have many Pharisees in our churches, Catholic and Protestant, large and small.

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            Members as well. (And I’ve had my own Pharisee moments from time to time.) Folks seem to think they can separate their politics from religion. However, Christianity is to permeate our lives. It should influence guide every decision we make, including how we vote. I admit that I struggle with that sometimes, especially during this particular primary season.

            I noted your comments above about local oversight. I’m a member of the church of Christ. Each congregation is autonomous and under the oversight of elders who meet the qualifications set out in I Tim. 3 and Titus 1.

          • jiminga

            altar boy and all. Was married 46 years ago in a Catholic church. But my wife and I left the Church long ago for the reasons described here and others. The hypocrisy of the Church continues to be intolerable to us. I recall years ago undergoing pre-baptism classes for our oldest son conducted by a deacon. He told us he has six children but would have no more because he & his wife used birth control. A deacon, no less.

            My wife attends a Baptist church now (claiming she is not really a Baptist) and I only attend on major holidays. My church is wherever I am at the moment and my congregation of one is solidly pro-life.

          • amj1

            I sat in the pew just yesterday as we were called to pray for ‘Global nuclear disarmament’, yet not a word of prayer regarding the church being forced to provide abortificants to employees, not a single prayer for the unborn. I just moved to this city and haven’t officially joined a new parish and as I sit in the pew I ask myself, why? Why join? Why stay with this lot?

            Thanks for saying what I’ve been thinking!

          • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

            You mean specifically the clergy? But nuns don’t count? Only bishops? I’m confused.

            My point is that while there are some who perhaps have not done as much as they should, by and large the leaders in the Church, clerical and non-clerical alike, are one of the most reliably and solidly group of and force for the Pro-Life movement. And by that I mean not only the legal fight, which is essential, but also the fight for the conscience of each individual, where the clerical contribution is most pronounced, (and which is equally essential).

            The Bishop in Boston is one example – obviously that was not a particularly good stewardship in several respects.

            I haven’t been around this fight for 30 years like you have, I’m only 31 myself. But since I was a teenager, I have devoted myself to doing all I can on this – to include political action, financial support, prayers, student group organization, and ministry. The very reason I got into law in the first place was to put myself in a position where I could someday help the unborn. But had the Church not been there as part of my own formation, including some amazing priests along the way, then who knows what other paths I might have gone down. Again, the point is its too broad a brush to say the Church’s leaders are AWOL and deficient.

            The real focus right now should be on rallying “moderate” Catholics to the conservative side and seizing this opportunity to open some eyes and fight back. This circular firing squad stuff is killing me.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            No, nuns don’t count. In the Catholic Church, on this issue, ONLY the Bishops count. They are the only ones who can publicly deny communion to a politician. If, in fact, individual priests can do that as well, then you can throw them in.

            And, as I just noted below, they’re not only AWOL, they’re acting as cowards would. And you can throw in Protestant leadership – and that certainly extends to individual pastors – who allow a pro-abortion politician to dirty a pew. That goes double for Rick Warren as I’ve noted several times.

            The Obama Administration’s actions over the last couple of weeks with respect to contraception is simply the chickens coming home to roost. Oh, and you can bet your last dollar that after the election, if Obama is reelected you’ll find Secretary Sibelius including abortion – all three trimesters – in ObamaCare. Even the nun who heads the Catholic Heath organization who carried water for Obama against the Bishops wishes, recognizes that.

          • bobguzzardi

            I am not Catholic but I have heard these sentiments more and more from Catholic political activists.

            As a Jew and a Zionist, there is an analogy of all the Jews who claim to be Zionists and then support Barack Obama. To me, defending Zion is a matter of life and death.

            I had been embarrassed that so many Jews vote Democrat ( and every Democrat is an Obama Enabler ) and now I know there are Catholics feel the pain of embarrassment and confusion.

            You have done a good thing, Christopher Badeux.

            Baruch HaShem blessing to the Lord, Our Father, Our King, Master of the Universe

        • stardustsara

          my church practices what they preach all year. most all sermons preach about abortion in one form or another, ever week we march at planned parenthood. we have an annual march against abortion once a year and plant flags for every child aborted in our county. the churches have to do the work, not the bishop. he can lead, but he can’t make the church follow. i thought it was a good letter, but we have been fighting it every day.

          instead of you preaching, why don’t you tell us what you would have the church do.

          • Repair_Man_Jack

            My parents are Catholic. I find your title disgustingly offensive.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            the text of the comment would indicate a typo in the title. I think. I also haven’t had coffee yet.

          • Repair_Man_Jack

            Maybe I’ve had too much coffee this AM.

      • stumpy

        I have many critisms of Rick Warren. I believe false teachers like RW are seriously damaging the gospel, trying to water down Christianity to nothing more than a feel good social gathering. He is by no means alone.

        The biggest difference between Rick Warren and the Catholic Bishops, is Rick Warren has no position of authority over other Protestants outside his own congregation and sphere of influence.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          himself and his congregation. And, I selected him specifically because he conducted the pre-election interview with both McCain and Obama. I was clear that I mentioned him to note that the perceived problem noted by the diarist was not common only to Catholics.

          You really need to pay more attention.

  • sociologyphdjd

    That the Catholic Church be called out for what it has become. The same thought struck me, that these bishops and many Catholics have supported Obama and so-called social justice/welfare programs from the start. Well, the chickens have come home to roost. There are about a million good reasons I am lapsed, and will stay lapsed, and this article hits on most.

    • Christopher Badeaux

      The Teaching is Truth or it is not. It is not merely a heresy, but a ridiculous logical fallacy, to impute the failings of the teacher to the teachings.

  • kipling

    May all Christian “leaders” – both Catholic and Protestant – be held accountable for their complicity with the evil of abortion.

    Jefferson feared that God would judge the U.S. for slavery. I fear that he is already judging the U.S. for the slaughter of the unborn. We will now find out what it means to live in a society where the death of a child is not just condoned but paid for by our government.

    I recommend pelting said bishops and priests with tomatoes. A public rebuke like Jesus and John the Baptist gave the religious leaders of their time might also work.

  • ntrepid

    For the issue at hand, it would not be possible to stress your seventh paragraph too much

  • stumpy

    I am not Catholic, so I am not involved in the details here, but I have often wondered how so many professing Catholics can fully.support abortion. There is no “I’m opposed, but I don’t have the right to tell others what to do”. That is a cop out and cannot be reconciled with Catholic teachings.

    Another item I do not understand is the Catholic leadership’s position on social justice through government action. No where in Jesus’ teaching does he address social justice from the government. Our commandment is to help those in need individually or through the Church.

  • daveoconnor

    I grew to teenagerdom in the Catholic faith. The friars at Bishop Timon HS reminded us that excessive mildness in the face of evil was just as wrong as unreasoned hate and anger. Jesus, the meek and mild, is a one-dimensional and false view. Our Lord denounced unrepentent evil everywhere he found it.
    Your thoughtful and properly passionate post raises another question. Is the present-day Church largely corrupt? It’s interesting that Whittiker Chambers in “Witness” stated 60 years ago that extreme left elements to include Communists had largely infiltrated Protestant Seminaries.
    The RC bishops proved themselve corrupt with the massive cover up of sexual misconduct that ultimately brought scandal.
    I deeply respect serious Catholics. My brother is a priest. But I long ago concluded that the Church, Catholic and Protestant no longer was the Church militant in the matter of stern opposition to the evil of this world. The Holy Spirit is active always and reformation will come. The great J.G. Machen saw all of this coming in his 1922 work “Christianity & Liberalism”. No less than Walter Lippmann called Machen’s analysis “cool and astringent” Lippmann noted that so called church liberals hadn’t answered Machen’s questions because they couldn’t. (A Preface To Morals-Lippman)

  • z06gal

    when someone, Catholic or Protestant it does not matter, is bold enough to tell it just like it is. We have a fraud of a president who has stated that “there will not be torture on my watch” while he legislates policies to freely murder millions of unborn babies paid for by the US taxpayer. God bless you greatly for taking this stand and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

  • stumpy

    this is one of the reasons I prefer church independence. I am an independent Baptist, meaning we believe in accordance with typical Baptist teaching, but are not governed by any man, council or group. This allows us to hold our leaders accountable because it is controlled at the local level. That said, many of our faithful members will vote Democrat. They are old southern “yellow dog” Democrats. This makes them just as responsible for their behavior as your Bishops. The benefit we have is that they aren’t in a prominate roll.

  • altexas

    Your anger or frustration is showing. A public rebuke is proper and fitting but Inciting violence is not Christian.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    and it also shows the danger of ObamaCare type regulations that invade the free market choices of all.

  • kipling

    I also recommended tomatoes and not other substances with which we are both familiar with in Texas.

    How very non-Christian of Jesus to cleanse the Temple and to use a whip on those religious leaders who exploited others. We should take it up with His Father.

  • altexas

    Catholics are people. They (we) are subjected to what they learn in their environment. Not every Catholic gets a good Catholic education. Most get their news like most everyone else, from the lame stream media. A lifetime of that indoctrination has an impact.

    I would recommend not painting with such a broad stroke. These are people. Humans. Prone to failure. Not automatons programmed by a central leadership. The left likes to promote the view that people in certain groups are all the same. It is not reality.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    in the kinds of insurance products that are available and that what Obama is doing will destroy the private health ins industry.

  • Ketih W

    I am a Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and recall a discussion with my Pastor and Director of Adult Education. They would see fellow church members driving around with Obama/Biden bumper stickers and Prolife stickers. They would look and just shaker their head in disbelief.

  • acat

    the flaws of the bishops, calling for public shaming, and calling for violence.

    Choose your words very carefully.

    Mew

  • altexas

    My main objection to Christopher’s article is the length. After that the hyperbole.

    Jesus did warn us to take up the sword. Interpretations aside, let’s take him literally for a moment. If I kill a bad man and am justified in my heart, I have committed no sin. If I encourage others to kill, that is a very different matter. (see islam)

    Jesus is a personal God. He avoided judging others, even his Roman Judge.

    The U.S. Roman Catholic Bishops stupidly supported Obamacare. It was stupid in part because they did not know what was in it. They had not read it.I guess we had to pass it first to see what was in it. They should be roundly criticized for that piss poor judgement.

    The Catholic hierarchy, particularly outside the U.S., have a poor understanding of our Constitutional separation of powers. They are in that regard, ignorant. Sometimes stubbornly so. Europe and the rest of the world tends to better understand socialism or at least, top down responsibility. It is in that environment that the Vatican thinks Governments should provide for the people.

    It is ignorance, not evil or as Christopher suggest, “lying.” We as Conservative Christians should better understand individual responsibility and accept our failures and death as they come to us and others.

  • altexas

    Control at the local level is still control, or at least the attempt at it. The Catholic Church (nor any other church) does not control an individuals heart unless that individual gives up their own free will. That is a great loss.

    Southern Democrats, RINO Republicans, KKK members, etc. all act on their own beliefs. It is the beliefs that should be attacked, not the people.

    Foe the most part, we are ignorant people with a limited time on this planet. Most do the best they can with what they know. That includes Bishops, Priests, Ministers, Chaplains and your local drug dealer. Judging people is not a well developed art on this planet. Usually a bit off mark.

  • greeneyeshade

    How is church independence, (actually congregational governance as you describe) an inoculant against a real or perceived inadequate response to political events?

    In the greater geographical area where I live, there’s plenty of independent churches who congregants are stereotypical Northeast effete snobs who speak with clenched teeth and who are reliable Democrats whose pastors are often vocal and public ADVOCATES for groups like PP, NARAL and the rest of the murderous cabal.

    As for your comment “The benefit we have is that they aren

  • kipling

    Is pelting with tomatoes a violent act?

    I recommend we go no further in our zeal than Christ himself.

  • kipling

    You seem more frustrated with my jest than with the issue of clergy selling out their faith and passively condoning the slaughter of the unborn.

    Would you condemn the Founding Fathers for tar and feathering?

  • demsaresatanic

    for the kipper to choose her words carefully.

  • palolojo

    I have to disagree with you about the Bishops not knowing what they were getting. The Catholic hierarchy is not ignorant of our Constitution. Though the article is lengthy I have to agree with the basic premise the Catholic Church sold out for social justice at the expense of the unborn child and will not admit they made a mistake in supporting the party and politicians who continue to expand on- demand abortion.

  • scmom

    They may not have known what was in the Obamacare bill, but they have supported the Pro-Abortion Democratic Party for far too long. They have been burying thier heads in the sand, unwilling to take on the Liberal Machine for 30 years or better. They think, like all liberals, that they can successfully negotiate with terrorists and murderers. Maybe it has finally sunk in, that they have been fooling themselves for too long.

  • MikeInOhio

    How long before the Obama Administration requires that all hospitals perform abortions?

  • RedLeader

    My only issue with this article is that the problem isn’t exclusive to Democrats. While it is more pervasive on their side of the aisle, if we’re going to discuss the spiritual warfare aspect of the battle over our nation, it is a good vs evil war, not a Republican vs Democrat war.

    Rick Santorum’s campaigning for Arlen Specter was a violation akin to everything that Barack Obama has done, yet he is portrayed as the conservative’s best hope for President.

    Only when we recognize that evil is evil no matter which political party that it manifests itself in will we begin to right this nation.

  • acat

    Can you convict this time?

    Far be it from this cat to get between you and your religion! However, there are certain legal entanglements that I’d rather you not overlook in your zeal.

    Yes, a pelting with tomatoes would, if the target were a liberal or high profile, likely be prosecuted as battery, not assault.

    Further, your doubling down on recommending others go and do likewise edges closer to the line for incitement.

    Choose wisely, eh?

    Mew

  • TexasTami

    …are the reason we keep fighting. I don’t know when I have COMPLETELY agreed with a written piece as I do this one. There is so much truth in it. Yes, to everything you said, but also YES to the conservatives who have done the same thing: voted for expediency and not the truth. I will keep this piece and re-read it from time to time, to remind myself that the fight is worth fighting, and the message is worth telling, again and again. Well done, thou good and faithful servant.

  • kipling

    No need to convict. You do not have the authority to do so. It might work with newbies but it does not work with me junior.

  • acat

    Neither is trying to shift the topic around. I’ll take this as an indication that you recognize your error, though.

    I have posted my views on abortion on Red State many times. Pick any one-in-a-million person – Erick Erikson, Tiger Woods, Ronald Reagan, Jimi Hendrix – and then realize that we’ve killed at least 30 such individuals.

    I am opposed to abortion, and am thrilled to see more States reducing the freedom of the abortionists to operate as the eventual elimination of the practice must come at the State level first.

    The behaviour of the catholic bishops is a problem for their church, and as I’m not a member, one I won’t comment on. I certainly won’t encourage violence toward them.

    Mew

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    People who got tarred and feathered (in most known cases) did something horribly dishonest and expected to get away with it because the society they lived in lacked strong enough social institutions to bring them to justice. They were deliberately attempting to bilk or rob the weak and the stupid. The Fouders Fathers (I’d love to read the link where John Jay and James Madison plucked the geese and boiled the tar BTW) were punishing miscreants who willfully chose to violate moral decency for personnal advantage.

    So unless you are Barack Obama, and believe that unborn babies in question punish young women for sexual promiscuity, the analogy you put up was utterly flawed.

  • JSobieski

    that warfare is filled with tactical manuevers analogous to supporting Arlen Specter. In war, you sacrifice a town to win a city, and you sacrifice a platoon to save a batallion. Sacrificing a 6 year term for a Senator makes sense when compared to a lifetime appointment for a Supreme Court Justice.

    Recall Winston Churchill visiting British towns after they had been bombed. British intelligence knew of the bombings in advance, and yet did nothing in order to preserve the intelligence source.

    The US and UK allied themselves with the USSR to fight Nazi Germany, and screwed over Poland and other Central-Eastern European nations in order to keep in the good graces of the USSR.

    Warfare is filled with all sorts of compromises of principle.

    That is the reason why the term “spritual warfare” should probably only be used in the context of an individual soul. Spirit is inherently singular and warfare is inherently plural.

  • RedLeader

    The problem with this is that according to the Catholic Church, you don’t get to make tactical decisions on matters of faith and morals. Rick Santorum promoted abortion – which is a mortal sin and put his soul in jeopardy.

    The reason that we’re losing the culture war to the left is precisely because we give up fundamental principles for what we call “tactical reasons”.

  • JSobieski

    Unlike criminal law where when can add a count of “aiding and abetting” or “conspiracy to commit”.

    Sinfulness requires intent, and it requires a reasonably direct linkage between an evil outcome and that intention.

    The Catholic Church wouldn’t consider the inadvertant murder of innocents in a just war to be a sinful—so yes, the Catholic Church does in fact allow tactical decisions relating to morals. Morality as taught by the Catholic Church recognizes that in some instances, there simply aren’t any good choices and that innocent lives will be forfeit no matter what.

  • JSobieski

    1. Doctor performing the abortion

    2. Government official who directly impacts the legality of abortion (Supreme Court Justice)

    3. Government official with little meaningful authority on the issue of abortion (current Senator)

    4. Company that sells medical supplies to the doctor knowing he performes abortions

    5. Pizza delivery guy who delivers pizza to the doctor knowing that he performs abortions

    1 involves mortal sin. 2 involves mortal sin depending on how much ability the individual has to change the law. To argue mortal sin in the context of 3 is to say that everyone everywhere is in mortal sin all the time.

  • JSobieski

    The sins of Spector are not imputable onto Santorum.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm#III

    Imputability

    That the act of the sinner may be imputed to him it is not necessary that the object which terminates and specifies his act should be directly willed as an ends or means. It suffices that it be willed indirectly or in its cause, i.e. if the sinner foresees, at least confusedly, that it will follow from the act which he freely performs or from his omission of an act. When the cause produces a twofold effect, one of which is directly willed, the other indirectly, the effect which follows indirectly is morally imputable to the sinner when these three conditions are verified:

  • RedLeader

    You’re grossly misunderstanding and misrepresenting Catholic teaching. What Rick Santorum did was a mortal sin – on this the Church is clear. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be met:

    1) It must be grave matter. On this the Church has always been abundantly clear – abortion is grave matter.

    2) The sinner must have knowledge of the seriousness. As a lifelong Catholic claiming to fight on the side of life, Santorum undoubtedly knew the seriousness of the matter.

    3) It must be done freely and willfully. Again, on this matter there can be no doubt.

    The Church could not be more clear – all of your attempts to spin aside, Rick committed a mortal sin on the level of what Pelosi did.

  • WillWong

    ,As a protestant, i am glad I don’t have to worry about this…Romans 3:23 says “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. Paul went on in Romans 6:23, “the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life”.

  • JSobieski

    I am not arguing here about the doctor.

    I am arguing about how far mortal sin attaches to those who at least indirectly enable the doctor.

    It is not “spin”. Mortal sin is a a very SERIOUS issue and the term should not be used lightly.

  • JSobieski

    1. Doctor performing the abortion

    2. Government official who directly impacts the legality of abortion (Supreme Court Justice)

    3. Government official with little meaningful authority on the issue of abortion (current Senator)

    4. Supporting a government official with little meaningful authority on the issue (what Santorum did–supporting Spector)

    5. Company that sells medical supplies to the doctor knowing he performes abortions

    6. Pizza delivery guy who delivers pizza to the doctor knowing that he performs abortions

    Abortion is a mortal sin for those directly involved in the process. Culpability for sin (imputability) does not extend out infinitely.

    That abortion is sinful is not in doubt. What I am challenging is how directly someone must be involved in the act of abortion before such activity/omission is a mortal sin.

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    Didn’t think so. So the three criteria you applied towards abortion are at least a step removed. Perhaps its you misrepresenting Church teaching. I’m not sure the Church has ever taught that supporting someone who supports something seriously wrong is a mortal sin. Supporting them for that reason probably would be, but I’m pretty sure Santorum did not support Specter because Specter was Pro-Choice.

    Fact is, Specter voted for multiple Pro-Life nominees and voted against Pro-Choice ones. When he lost his primary, he went over to the other side, but he stayed in office. In effect, he became a vote for the Democrats and for abortion at that point. I agree Specter needed to go, but if Santorum aided the pro-abortionist cause at any time, I guarantee it was not done willfully.

  • palolojo

    If a hospital has OB they must perform abortions. This came out years ago, when I still lived in Hawaii St Francis hospital closed the OB because of this requirement.

  • scmom

    It was just that the Catholic Church was trying to keep the exemption they had gotten before.

  • scmom

    It was just that the Catholic Church was trying to keep the exemption they had gotten before.

  • RedLeader

    Delivering a pizza likely wouldn’t meet the criteria, particularly if the person delivering the pizza didn’t know if it was a mortal sin or not. But we’re not talking about delivering a pizza – we’re talking about supporting pro-abortion politicians, something that the Church has been very clear on. There isn’t a question on the matter, and comparisons are irrelevant. If there is another scenario that you’re not sure about, feel free to ask your priest. Campaigning for pro-abortion politicians, however, is a mortal sin.

  • JSobieski

    importance of the moral culpability as sin.

    I am asking you to specifically identify how far along the line there is an instance of mortal sin.

    We agree that #1 involves mortal sin. How far along would you classify the person as committing a mortal sin.

  • RedLeader

    I don’t pretend to be an expert on which of these is or is not a mortal sin. What I’m telling you is that the Church is clear on the matter of campaigning for pro-abortion politicians. Spend three minutes on Google and educate yourself.

    As for the rest of your scenarios, feel free to consult your priest.

  • renny

    Didn’t some bishop deny Kerry mass for his abortion stance, and didn’t the MSM go nuts?

  • JSobieski

    What about #5?

  • JSobieski

    I am pro-life, so don’t mistake my motivation here.

    A) A pro-First Amendment politician is not necessarily in favor of people uttering blasphemous comments. However, such a politician does support the legality of such speach.

    B) A pro-legalized abortion politician is not necessarily in favor of abortions being committed. However, such a politician does support the legal of abortion (which we both agree is murder).

    If (B) means a pro-choice politician is guilty of mortal sin and that support of a pro-choice politician is also a mortal sin, why isn’t support of a politician in (A) also a mortal sin?

  • pineygirl

    As you stated:
    Delivering a pizza likely wouldn

  • JSobieski

    You acknowledge that a line is drawn somewhere between a doctor who performs an abortion and a pizza delivery guy who knowingly delivers pizza to a clinic.

    So far we agree.

    So where is the specific line drawn? You are asserting that Santorum is engaging in mortal sin (situation #4), but you can’t provide a link to back that up, you accuse me of spin, etc.

    If your position is so clear and well established, why cut short the conversation?

  • RedLeader

    Here’s a link…with tons more links: https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=support+pro-choice+mortal+sin&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    Catholics submit to the teaching of the Church. The Church teaches that it is a mortal sin to support pro-abortion politicians. Again, for your other questions, ask your priest.

  • JSobieski

    You didn’t even read the search results from the link you sent me

  • JSobieski

    then all bishops and priests everywhere would have to deny to anyone who merely supports for such politicians.

    However, there is no such requirement … even for the politicians themselves much less the people who merely support the polician.

    From the Vatican—essentionally a “bishops decide on a case by case basis”

    http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0403830.htm

  • kipling

    Any Christian clergy who perverts the teachings of Christ in exchange for the blessings of Caesar should be publicly driven from the pulpit.

    If you think I am too harsh then you should read the gospel and the Old Testament prophets. Jesus took a whip and drove the religious leaders and their minions from the Temple. The exploitation of the innocent requires a little more than posting on a blog.

    The Sons of Liberty did not sit around writing about how they felt and trying to prove how clever they were.

    As to recognizing error, my error was in not being more forceful. The other is wasting my time responding to you.

    If you have a problem with what I write then call in the mods. Otherwise, stop strutting around in boots too big for you to fill.

  • Tbone

    nt

  • libertus

    Let me first say that I share your frustration with bishops who duck and dodge on innumerable matters over the past 40 years, but I am appalled by your diary and how uncharitable it is. The bishops are serving as the frontline in opposing this monstrous and evil regulation. There is no stronger organized body willing to stand up to the Administration on this regulation.

    I was proud that my bishop required a similar letter to be read by the parish pastor. Could it be stronger? Of course it could. But this is an extraordinary matter that the bishops are fighting against this. Do you not doubt them that they would fold their charitable organizations rather than commit an evil act? I do not doubt them, I do not doubt my bishop for a moment on this. He would rather shutter the hospitals than approve them committing an evil.

    I do not live in your Archdiocese but I know Archbishop Gregory to be a good, prayerful man and committed son of the Church.

    I invite all to pray that this evil law be rescinded. The bishops need prayer that they stay strong, not anathemas,

  • Marcus_Traianus

    The Church certainly has an interest in social issues. But yielding gratuitously, that is beyond the commonly understood interpretive Biblical limits of our faith, to those issues as a means of keeping the church “contemporary” and therefore keeping parishioners in the pews, is indeed misguided. As is sacrificing one “principle”, if you will, for another.

    I believe, if anything, the Bishops should realize that liberalism in absence of a more holistic catechism is a religion unto itself and, forgive me, creates a schism with our larger articles of faith.

    Certainly no man is perfect or an island unto himself. So we strive to honor all the Church principles as best we can- which by the way makes us Catholics. It is not, nor has it ever been ours or the churches’ to choose.

    That doesn’t mean we yield to one sin or weakness over another. It simply means we try to honor all pillars of our faith, not dilute them or with our actions or words set them against each other. That is a fairly simple message.

    I am reminded of some necessary wisdom;

    Et si justitiam quis diligit, labores hujus magnas habent virtutes : sobrietatem enim et prudentiam docet, et justitiam, et virtutem, quibus utilius nihil est in vita hominibus.

  • stumpy

    that it is much easier to correct false teaching or remove its source when dealing with 200 people verses 2 million. Bad apples should be dealt with regardless of the level of leadership. I would also agree there are plenty of independent churches who are awful, politically and scripturally. An individual can easily remove themselves from these people if needed.

    Power corrupts. Please don’t misunderstand me; I am in no way saying leader(s) of any denomination are corrupt. I am merely stating it is easier to root out at a local level, not that it is less prevailent.

  • stumpy

    intend to insinuate that all Catholics or Catholic leadership held these positions. It just seems that a signicant number do and are allowed to continue unchallenged by the Church.

  • http://theheartlander.wordpress.com/ heartlander

    I’m sorry, but if millions of Catholics had not opted to put some issue or another AHEAD oif the lives of unborn children being slaughtered, Barack Obama (not to mention Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, and dozens of other “Catholic” wolves in sheep’s clothing) would never have been elected. That’s just a statistical fact.

    I am a Catholic. I worked very hard in 2008 to educate my fellow Catholics as to just how fanatical and extreme Obama really is where killing babies is concerned (he even defended outright infanticide). I’m sorry to tell you that the general reaction was indifference. Our local pastor’s sermons over the past several years had convinced enough of them that “Bush’s war” on terror was the most evil thing on earth, much worse than the deliberate, intentional killing of babies in what should be the safest, most secure place on earth, their own mothers’ wombs.

    I agree with Badeaux that the bishops have a LOT to answer for.

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    perhaps its much easier to create false teachings for 200 people than 2 billion. Local accountability, so-called, is nothing more than local popular opinion. Sow the wind…

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    nt

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    A) We don’t condone violence.
    B) The recent quality of Catholic Bishops is such that they (and their kids) might get a charge out of the experience.

    (I can’t imagine a properly brought-up byblow of a Medici Pope being similarly titilated).

  • scmom

    Catholic Bishops don’t have children.

  • altexas

    How did the Catholic Bishops come by this knowledge? Was the Obamacare bill posted on the internet and they all sat down and read it? Were they sent copies the rest of us were not privy to?

    Claiming they knew what they were buying does not prove the assertion.

    In my 9 years in residence as a Catholic Seminarian, U.S. history, constitution and law was never taught or discussed. Reflecting back, none of my holy professors appeared to have any care or concern for such temporal matters.

    Cesar Chavez came to Houston for a rally and our Bishop John L. Markovsky instructed that he wanted all his seminarians to attend, volunteer and support the cause. None of us did.

    The hierarchy is more inclined to ‘social justice’ because most of this planet is governed by some form of socialism or tyranny. The U.S. is not a major concern. Therefore not a subject needing a lot of study. We are not the problem. Social injustice dominates the world so that is the focus. The sad part is the Bishops miss the point. The solution is in our Constitution. It is not something they spend time understanding.

    We often assume people in ‘authority’ have knowledge they do not. That can be applied to doctors, lawyers, counselors, government officials as well as church officials.

    Priests and ministers get exposed to a lot of poverty and suffering. It may be the nature of the job that leads them to want government solutions. The u.S. Catholic Bishops had no idea what was in this massive Obamacare bill. Ignorance and stupidity ruled again.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    I’d be impressed if he denied communion, a pastoral letter is worth exactly nothing.

    Example, the US Bishops implied in 2008 that Catholics should not vote for pro-abortion candidates. Obama is not only pro-abortion, he’s pro-infanticide. See his vote as a state Senator in IL. Catholics voted for Obama 52-45, a 7 point swing from 2004 when they voted in favor of Bush over the nominal Catholic Kerry.

    The Bishops are all talk, no real action.

    On the Protestant side, I’m even more upset that Rick Warren let Obama get away with claiming that understanding when life begins is “above my pay grade”. Warren didn’t challenge that statement or point out Obama’s long record supporting abortion at any point in the pregnancy and infanticide.

    Pro-life church leaders of all denominations have taken a pass on doing anything meaningful on this issue. They are all talk and no action whatsoever.

  • Christopher Badeaux

    Let me rewrite what you just said, in relevant part.

    The bishops have been forced onto the frontline in opposing this monstrous and evil regulation. There is no stronger organized body coerced into standing up to the Administration on this regulation.

    If you feel this is less charitable and less accurate, then let us track the chain of causation here. Before the events of the last two weeks, these men, almost to a one, taught the importance of universal health care as a means of charity and social justice. Despite voices better-placed and more respected than mine (not a high bar, but still), who over and over warned that this would be the entry to a host of long term left-wing goals specifically antithetical to the Catholic Church such as mandated abortion and birth control, destruction of conscience refusals, and the elimination of intermediating civil society, they plugged happily along.

    When Obamacare came up the pole, the message was WOW THIS IS GREAT but please no abortion BUT REALLY THIS IS A WONDERFUL STEP. The Knights of Columbus, some of whom you may even have met, went to war, making the same warnings, which were routinely ignored.

    When the Administration first announced that they might just toss conscience exceptions over the rail, well, surely there was a way to talk about it, right? Reasonable people, these Democrats who were led by a man who opposed a BORN ALIVE INFANT PROTECTION ACT. Right?

    Surprise.

    Through it all, they have lent their imprimatur to these people and their madness. Even now, I don’t see any danger of that changing. After all, in Massachusetts, they closed adoption services rather than provide to gay couples, but many of their hospitals just went right ahead providing morning-after contraception and insurance exactly like what is being decried now.

    So, you know. Just a little material cooperation with evil. It’s for a good cause.

    So do I doubt them? Not all of them. Most of them. The smaller fish charities will have to close their doors because they can’t afford the penalties and can’t afford the sin. The bigger ones will dump their employees on the exchanges or just go ahead and sin.

    After all, it’s for a good cause.

  • libertus

    Yes, a bishop here or there is weak, but on the whole the bishops conference is united against this administration’s Orwellian worldview. They are unspeakably brave in even bringing up the fact that contraception is a gravely disordered act — and that it is not a matter of a church rule but of natural law.

  • Tbone

    Good.

  • acat

    your responses are quite amusing to me.

    I’m just pointing out some of the lines. It’s up to the moderators to decide whether or not you’ve crossed them, a task I happily leave up to them.

    I will note, however, that your tone has changed – you are no longer calling for people to commit acts of violence.

    Mew

  • acat

    would think you’re on the right page.

    Unfortunately, in my experience, the average Catholic is lucky to know who his or her bishop even is, let alone whether their teachings are in line with the bible.

    Mew

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    You intended to offend, and you did. Most practicing Catholics would be offended by such a comment. I do not post here often, but I’ve noticed you piss off a long string of people here.

    But that does not really matter, what matters is that Obama is declaring war on religion, and instead of reaching out to Catholics who are angered by Obama and bringing them in the conservative fold, you seem content to snipe at them for your own amusement.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    excluded a pro-abortion politician from communion. Just one. Not a threat, not a public denouncing, something that is well within the scope of a Bishop’s authority, eliminating communion for a politician and doing it publicly.

    All the “stuff” you guys have been blathering about in this thread is nothing more that PR talk. The issue requires action. And note, as a Protestant and an evangelical, and as someone who has been involved in Rick Warren’s ministry, I will again say that I’m personally more offended by Warren letting Obama off the hook at his “interview” with Warren prior to the 08 election.

    And you bet I’m serious. The Bishops, and their Protestant counterparts, are absolutely AWOL and I don’t think it would be an overstatement to say that they’ve acted cowardly. To a man.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Rick Warren letting Obama skate.

  • jout99

    My fellow liberal friend who is our guitar player at mass (I play bass) said after mass if Obama doesn’t change his stance he’s voting for Ron Paul. Yes!!! I was floored. I have been working on him for the past couple of years.

    The catholic church is very slow to change. I have been in the Pro-Life movement for years and have been frustrated by it’s failure to truly stand up to these politicians. I can only guess it’s due their unwillingness to get mixed up in politics and get in trouble with the politically correct crowd. But I can see a change coming.

  • kipling

    What I said is far more moderate than what others have said here yet you choose to single me out for your special attention. I am lucky I guess. Keep nipping at the heels boy and you might learn a thing or two.

    If you think my tone has changed on the topic then you need to learn to read better. My original post still stands as does my later comment about driving them from the pulpit.

    I don’t think my responses amuse you. By your tone and cattiness I can tell that they irritate you. It makes my writing all the more enjoyable.

    I shall not detail you any longer. I am sure you have a stiffly worded post to write about something or other. Be sure to be extra clever as you work up your best imitation of teen angst.

  • stumpy

    False teaching is false. Sound doctorine is sound, regardless of the size of the group. Local control makes it easier to remove false teachers than going through a lot of bureaucratic red tape. Not less suseptible, just easier to extinguish.

  • libertus

    Cardinal Burke is one of the bravest defenders of the powerless. See the link.

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/1990/20/9020402

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    From your link…

    ROME, January 30, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Archbishop Raymond Burke, in an exclusive interview last week, told LifeSiteNews.com that the issue of pro-abortion politicians continuing to receive Holy Communion is still one of major concern and that it is the duty of bishops to ensure that they are refused.

    He told LifeSiteNews.com, “I don

  • josephine

    The Communist Party of America has been working quietly and in disguise for more than 50 years in our country. They have managed to infect our culture with poison.
    This is one of the first steps to tyranny. Obama and his gang have this all planned out, he is not incompetent.
    The country is watching the Catholic Church. We pray for the Church to have strength, to stand up against this tyranny.
    This is just the next step. Obama has thrown away the Constitution and the Congress must step up and stop the take over.
    Thank you for your article.

  • http://theheartlander.wordpress.com/ heartlander

    Sorry, altexas, but the bishops could have used the same simple, easy litmus test I have used for my whole adult life: If a candidate (or party) supports the legal murder of children in the womb, they are automatically disqualified from my support. PERIOD. How hard is that?

    I wish every Catholic in America would read David Carlin’s book Can A Catholic Be A Democrat?

    For me, the answer to that question has been unequivocally clear for over 30 years.

  • acat

    that called for others to physically assault anyone is .. yours.

    First rule of holes applies.

    Mew

  • lamaestra

    Thank you, thank you, and thank you again for so eloquently expressing the rage I have been feeling towards my Catholic brethren. I teach in a Catholic High School and it disgusts me to remember the theological distortions they went through in their attempt to justify a vote for Obama. Noticeably at fault was the religion department. As long as he had a D next to him name, and they felt confident that social justice would be a strong force in his “reign” they were satisfied. One day prior to election day, they passed around the Council of Bishops recommendations that pretty much gave them the permission they needed. The conservative Catholics just raged among themselves, and prayed for the unborn. Now, all of a sudden they feel betrayed! Well, the silver coin reference could not be more spot on. When I look to these people, I feel disgusted. How disgraceful their conduct has been, all for the crumbs he’s thrown their way. Well, how does it feel to be used now? If the economy were better. I’d look for employment elsewhere, but I can’t. Please pray that one day I don’t go postal on all of them. The month before this election will be the test. This article is so email worthy. I’m sending it on to my friends, especially the K of C members. Thank you again.

  • kipling

    You know, the one by Tbone that called for the bishops to be whipped in front of their children. You responded to it without condemning the call for violence. I wonder why.

  • libertus

    I get your point about the dangers of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) allowing in creeping left-wing regulation, but there is a decided difference between tacit support for the architecture of the ACA and support for killing the unborn or materially cooperating in a grave evil such as contraception. If you don’t see the difference, then it is not worth arguing.

    Support for or opposition to the ACA was a matter of prudence because it does not deal with an immoral act. I happen to strongly disagree with the ACA and was disappointed in the bishops tacit approval of the architecture. They should have stayed out of the debate. They were heroic in opposing it when abortion was introduced and it became clear it would cover it. But please, you must make a distinction between the imprudence of “universal healthcare” and the grave evil of abortion. Universal healthcare is not evil. On a local level, such as a county or state (or very small country), it may be a good under the principle of subsidiarity. I know of many rural counties in the west which do not have markets for hospitals and the county does an excellent job providing healthcare in difficult circumstances. In the U.S., I believe the country is too large to handle even the tepid form of universal healthcare which the ACA puts forth.

    This lack of appreciation for the inability of universal healthcare to be successful on a national level and btter left as a local matter is what I believe the bishops exhibited. Was it imprudent to support universal healthcare on a national level? Yes. Was it evil? No.

    I cannot imagine any bishop in this country who will cooperate with this new law requiring them to pay for contraception and abortifacients. I also trust that Archbishop Gregory will not comply as well.

  • kipling

    I made the analogy to tar and feathering in relations to those religious leaders who ignore Scripture and the doctrines of their church in order to wink at the practice of abortion.

    They seem to fit your definition of “miscreants who willfully chose to violate moral decency for personal advantage.”

    If the original post can call for their eternal damnation and Mr. Erickson points out how the Lord might beat Obama the disobedient servant of God, then I don’t think tar and feathering is out of the realm.

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    It keeps the petroleum industry closer to full employment until we can build Keystone XL.

  • http://theheartlander.wordpress.com/ heartlander

    Thank goodness, there was at least one Catholic bishop who did explicitly address the suffering that would ensue if the private sector in healthcare were to be destroyed, as Obamacare was obviously likely to do. Bishop Walter Nickless of Sioux City, IA, said “No health care reform is better than the wrong sort of health care reform..” He wrote a letter back in ’09 that is the best thing I’ve seen on the subject from any Catholic leader.

    Bishop Samuel Aquila of Fargo, ND, also wrote a very good letter, in which he emphasized the Catholic principle of subsidiarity, saying, “There is a danger in being persuaded to think that the national government is the sole instrument of the common good.”

    Bishops Naumann of Kansas City, KS, and Bishop Finn of Kansas City, MO, also wrote a very thoughtful, comprehensive statement, with many gems such as this:

    “The right of every individual to access health care does not necessarily suppose an obligation on the part of the government to provide it. Yet in our American culture, Catholic teaching about the

  • acat

    between Tbone’s wishful thinking and your call for others to participate in a specific action.

    Tbone never asked for anyone to take action. You did.
    Tbone is a noted hyperbolic poster, you are not.

    First rule of holes.

    Mew

  • kipling

    With you I am beginning to think the first rule of ***holes applies.

    Although you attempt to be some kind of gate keeper here at RedState, you have no authority so bug off. Your bullying may work with the newbies and with the kids on your block but it doesn’t work here.

  • acat

    I would recommend seeking help with this persecution complex.

    Mew

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    You guys are both outstanding posters at the site, but the personnal arguement here is verging into threadjack territory. Walk away. Neither of you will accomplish anything valuable in the continuation of the current discussion.

  • kipling

    (nt)

  • acat

    (null)

  • redmymind

    As a traditional Catholic who unfortunately got involved with the Lefebvrist movement at one point in my life, I am no stranger to the anger felt over the crisis of the faith we are experiencing within the Church today, with countless, surprising aberrations that lead even the best of us to truly wonder where the Lord is in all this.

    I understand your anger and frustration but at the same time implore you to refrain from thinking as man thinks. This problem is not political but primarily SPIRITUAL. It is not our place to call for sanctions out in the public against these shepherds of the Church. Such is not a Catholic attitude.

    We must submit our grievances through the proper channels within the Church, do our part to share the truth and enlighten the ignorant, and pray much and do penance. God is not blind. God is not deaf. He hears our prayers but at the same time expects us to submit to the wisdom of those whose care it is to apply the appropriate measures.

    Do not get into the rut of casting judgments against the shepherds of the Church–even if the world in all its hypocrisy screams for vengeance. I know the temptation toward intemperate anger is great, but Our Lord requires of us Catholics meekness and humility more than ever in these times. It is certainly our duty as Catholics to address that which is wrong and to even express just anger, but it is equally important–if not more important–to have the trust and the humility to allow our Supreme Pontiff and Vicar of Christ to address the crisis as he sees fit.

    Many who do not understand the Faith and the true Catholic spirit will scoff at this and fail to transcend the “human” way of thinking which cries for “human” solutions (even if cloaked in ecclesiastical terms). Ours is a Divine institution founded by God Himself. Anger and rebellion are the ways of the world. Ours is a way of submission, humility, discipline, and holiness. If we claim to know Catholic truth, we must all first live it to the fullest ourselves and bear witness to it in our own lives. But, it is not our place to ask for any of our bishops to be punished or sanctioned. That is the decision of Rome alone.

    The evil one would like nothing more than to sow disord and rebellion within the Church, precisely using the occasion of a just cause. Let us then be upright advocates of truth and do our part in making all just grievances known to our Holy Father, but have the humility to submit to his wisdom and show our sincerity before God by praying fervantly for our bishops and all who suffer and live lives of penance and mortification.

    May the Lord be with you, brother. I’ll keep you in my prayers. Please do the same for me.

  • Christopher Badeaux

    I get your point about the dangers of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) allowing in creeping left-wing regulation, but there is a decided difference between tacit support for the architecture of the ACA and support for killing the unborn or materially cooperating in a grave evil such as contraception. If you don

  • duncer

    Courts might entertain a suit brought against a pulpit speech that included a condemnation of a politician by name but they are free to proclaim abortion a mortal sin and cite particular bills details and provisions that promote practices abhorrent to Christianity. Failure to do so violates their duty to the the church and God.

  • scmom

    If anyone thinks that the Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that is under the gun here, they are missing the point. Presbyterians also own and run hospitals and social service agenies. Baptists and Methodists also run nursing homes and retirement facilities (where there is abortion, there will be euthenasia). This is not the last of the attacks, it is but the beginning.

  • scmom

    I also was raised a Catholic. You state that extreme left elements had infiltrated the Protestant Seminaries… they also infiltrated the Catholic Seminaries. I remember in highschool going to nursing homes to sing and do crafts rather than studying the Catechism frustrated my mother to no end. Being taught “relativism” and that everything was not black and white was very new to me. The nuns didn’t believe in it, but the priests sure taught itto us all.

  • altexas

    Since the Bishops did not know what they were buying with certitude, I question the assumption they were being willfully ignorant. Proving the will of another is not as easy as proving the knowledge of another.

    That Obama was pro-baby-killing was well known but many assurances were made (falsely) claiming no federal funds would be used to pay for abortions. Given such deceptions, it is presumptuous to claim the Bishops were willfully ignorant.

    The simplistic single issue test of whether a candidate is for abortion or not may make decision making easier but it ignores many other issues that may be of importance in selecting one candidate over another. No candidate is perfect and our choices are limited. One should not throw out the good because it lacks perfection.

    Judging others is not a well developed art on this planet. It usually is off mark.

  • altexas

    Being stupid is not a sin or a crime. Assuming a person or persons are culpable is a moral judgement.

    Abortion may be the single burning issue in the hearts of many. That does not make it the most important issue for everyone.

    The bishops have a lot to answer for. I am not hearing well formulated questions.

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    Your assumptions can go as follows.

    1) The candidate who is lying to you has a deeply-held personal conviction ont he issue he does not wish to share.

    2) The candidate has been forced to make decisions that test this conviction in the past.

    3) The candidate’s past decisions are probably a pretty good indicator of where that candidate will go from hear.

    Barack Obama has a strong, deeply-held ethical position on abortion. If he were any more pro-choice, he’d be putting a gun to women’s heads and making the decision for them.

    In the past, he has been put to the test ont his issue. As a State Senator in Illinois, he has voted , more than once, to defend the practice of partial-birth abortion. He had 100% record of defending a procedure where you partially deliver a baby, put a vacuum-hose into it’s head and suck it’s cute, little brain out.

    Based on that prior probabalistic evidence, and assuming Catholic Bishops do in fact possess at least a rudimentary university education, should they really have believed that he was suddenly going to worry about their concerns over making the taxpayers buy women chemical abortificants very early on in a pregnancy?

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Since the Bishops did not know what they were buying with certitude…

    With certitude? Virtually nothing can be known to that standard. Not even “settled science”. You’ve just provided the biggest, and the weakest, cop out I’ve ever had the displeasure to read.

    Bishops are – or can be – lots of things, both good and bad, but “stupid” isn’t among ‘em. To believe the word of a man who voted to protect medical personnel from charges of infanticide as a Senator in IL, about ANYTHING requires a level of ignorance, stupidity and, frankly, drunkenness that transcends any semblance of reality.

    I have no problem with making this judgment – and extending it to Rick Warren while I’m at it – the Bishops knowingly bought into this,

    While I’m at it, I take it from your comment that you’re not a priest. That is a very good thing given your next to last paragraph. If the support and enabling of the willful murder of fifty million unborn children is not a reason to cast a politician from your midst, you’ve got huge problems that you need to deal with. Because you’ll certainly answer for them.

  • altexas

    That process uses a lot of unproven assumptions in a effort to determine what someone else believed.

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    As Former NFL Coach Bill Parcels liked to tell his teams. “You are what your record says you are.” Obama’s prior record identified him as one of the foremost backers of universal availability and funding for abortions at every stage of a woman’s pregnancy. Why should he change what helped get him to The White House just to appease the Pontifex Maximus?

  • altexas

    Few Priests, ministers, bishops, philosophers, theologians or Doctors of Divinity keep up with civilian politics as much as the commentators here. Also unlike political commentators, they are generally less inclined to judge what others know or what is in their heart.

    Obama swore to support and defend the U.S. Constitution. I think most writers here believed that was a lie at the time the oath was taken. I do not believe the majority of U.S. Citizens did.

    Christians, particularly the clergy, tend to believe or at least hope others are honest until a lie becomes obvious.

    The Catholic clergy, for the most part supported universal healthcare. Most likely they still do. It did not become an issue until Kathleen Sebelius gave her one year warning for church organizations to comply with the ACA mandate on contraception. Then it became an issue. A big one.

    The reaction of the Church was swift and clear. This reaction itself is evidence they were not aware this was going to be part of the bill. It violates our U.S. Constitution and our legal tradition of personal moral exemption, by which (for example) MD’s could decline to perform an abortion.

    It is disappointing when we put our trust in someone only to be betrayed. Claiming it was a failure on the part of the clergy is a pointless exercise in judging the hearts and minds of others.

    Also, I suspect, ‘Frequentist Probability Analysis’ is not taught in the Theoligate.

  • jakeofalltrades

    lol

  • Tbone

    “A Los Angeles bishop who was once rector of St. John’s Seminary in Camarillo is retiring early after admitting he fathered two children who are now teenagers.”

    Read more: http://www.vcstar.com/news/2012/jan/04/l-bishop-former-st-johns-seminary-rector-resigns-a/#ixzz1lkX5OjH7
    - vcstar.com

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    goes double to you.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Something to do with new churches being inducted into the Church of Rome.

  • Tbone

    are two of Obama’s major constituencies. It is up to the Catholic Church to explain to its members that they shouldn’t vote for the poster boy of Murder, Inc, aka Planned Parenthood, and it is up to the Pharisees to tell the Jews not to vote for the Party of the anti-Semites.

    BTW, your MLK quote is pure irony, isn’t it?

  • acat

    First off, Catholics aren’t a “bloc”. Somewhere around half of the Catholics I know supported Obama over McCain in 2008. Roughly a third of the evangelicals I know supported Obama as well. Christian religions don’t act – politically – as blocs.

    Second up, this isn’t “war on religion”, this is “leaders of a religion getting stung by a scorpion they knowingly carried”. The Bishops supported this guy. He spoke at Notre Dame *despite* his very clear pro-abort record. Tell me again how it’s Tbone who’s being offensive to Catholic beliefs by pointing out this obvious fault.

    Third, this isn’t a war on religion, it’s an Obama trial balloon, an attempt to manipulate. What Team Obama did was to propose something they know they can’t get, they’ll now “act reasonable” and take something lesser .. but still offensive .. and the Bishops will fall into line.

    As for “outreach”, just how many non-conservative Catholics do you think google (or bing, I suppose) Red State regarding this trial balloon? Heck, at least a couple Catholics I know think government ordering the church to “modernize their thinking” would be helpful!

    The point is, if you are offended, paint_it_red, your anger is facing in the wrong direction. Take it up with the Bishops who succored this scorpion president, or with Obama himself.

    Mew

  • acat

    … always thought the Anglicans and Episcopalians had the best architecture.

    Mew

  • jakeofalltrades

    I can’t stand whiners.

    I bet paint supports Santorum.

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    You are right that anger here should primarily be directed towards “scorpion” Obama & co., and it is. Just because they are trampling religious liberties, however, does not mean that tbone’s and others’ comments were not ugly and offensive.

    Whether you call it ‘war on religion’ or anything else, it doesn’t really matter. What matters regarding Obama’s actions is that religious liberties are being infringed upon in violation of the 1st Amendment.

    But your notion that there is no Catholic voting bloc is absolutely incorrect. In fact, there are several, some of which are conservative and some liberal. This is for the obvious reason that some Church teachings are considered conservative, and others are considered liberal. None particularly enjoy seeing their Church attacked, whether it be by the POTUS or some loudmouth cyber-bully like tbone who likes to loudly demonstrate his keyboard courage.

    There are socially conservative Catholics who go to Church every Sunday, take the Church’s actual teaching on not supporting an intrinsic evil by voting for pro-choice candidates where there is no proportional wrong counterbalancing it very seriously, and they all vote Pro-Life.

    There are the pro-labor Catholics who recall the Church’s involvement in helping to stand up organized labor in this country, and take encyclicals such as Laborem Exercens very seriously in finding proportional wrong. They tend to be older, practicing Catholics, but this group is absolutely persuadable on an issue like this. Similarly, this group is well ingrained with the knowledge of anti-Catholic prejudice, and comments such as tbone’s are exactly what frustrate bringing them into the conservative fold.

    Then there are practicing Catholics who do not take the Church’s political stances seriously. They largely support Democrats, but where their Church is being attacked by one side of the aisle so blatantly, might be persuaded that Obama is out of control. Especially now that they are hearing a more political message from the pulpit than has been the case in the past.

    Then there are non-practicing Catholics, who still identify culturally as Catholic, or attend once in a while, who also may be receptive in part to a conservative message that Obama is exceeding all reasonableness with this blatant attack on religious liberty and conscience.

    As for how many frequent this site, I have no idea. But I suspect there are some, and I wonder what is the point of discussing this issue on a political blog if it is not to advance the conservative cause and unify opposition to Obama. Sniping comments against the Church suggest that some here care less for that objective than they do jumping on any opportunity to attack Catholics. Are conservative Catholics supposed to read this crap and then go to war with their own bishops about not doing excommunications sooner?

    Comments like Tbone’s “Dumb Catholics and Dumb Jews” are patently wrong and designed to be offensive. He is calling us dumb by virtue of our religion, which he is sniping at. He is calling for attacks on clerics, which, throughout our history, has been an unfortunate and tragic reality. That he is doing so hyperbolically, or tongue in cheek, does not make such comments less offensive. The fact he wants to talk about this, or some bishop who had a kid in Los Angeles or hundreds of years ago, rather than the Obama administration and unifying against him IS the problem.

    Last, and with this I am truly done with this conversation regardless of what the next round of abuse from tbone or others may be, is that I said this go doubly for you, because unlike tbone, who goes out of his way to insult people and relish in unproductive insults, you generally have a thoughtful analysis. Here though, you seem to endorse tbone’s commentary and question whether Catholics even know their bishop or if their faith’s teachings are Biblical.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Nothing against my Catholic brothers.

  • altexas

    When you cannot prove or even demonstrate your point, attack the opponent.

  • JSobieski

    However I have to ask the following question:

    If 50M American children had been killed outside the womb, would there by violent uprisings in the street?

    What I find difficult to come to terms with is moral culpability for indirect political activities.

    There are only a couple (at most) additional links in the chain of culpability between where the Bishops are and were most of us are.

    When you really think about it, the issue is terrifying and extremely sad.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Our Nation will be – and I think is now being – judged for this abomination. The idea that we can even have a civil discussion about is pretty repulsive.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Everything that happens is for a reason determined long ago. America is perhaps the best the world has ever done, and at its best, it greatly falls short of the lowest mark that would objectively justify its continued existence. The proclamations of liberty coincide with the industrial murder of millions at the altar of sexual gratification. It is no less than retail human sacrifice to the god of self.

    We are worse than the most murderous of all dictatorships while we sing hymns of freedom.

    I believe – I hope – that a reckoning will come that will end the farce forever. The universe is too beautiful for what we’ve done in it.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    bound to uphold the doctrines and dogmas from the Vatican, the US Bishops – and priests for that matter – are AWOL. The Vatican has been clear on this issue and the Bishops have flatly defied it.

    For starters, consider what Michael Gerson wrote in the Washington Post as reported by Deseret News

    From LifeSiteNews.com in an article discussing pro-choice politicians and the issue of life…

    ROME, January 30, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Archbishop Raymond Burke, in an exclusive interview last week, told LifeSiteNews.com that the issue of pro-abortion politicians continuing to receive Holy Communion is still one of major concern and that it is the duty of bishops to ensure that they are refused.

    He told LifeSiteNews.com, “I don

  • jakeofalltrades

    Do they not care? Is it like federal immigration law (wink, wink)? I’m curious.

  • aesthete

    “We are worse than the most murderous of all dictatorships while we sing hymns of freedom.”

    The vast majority of dictatorships have no qualms about killing children, whether outside the womb or inside of it. Much of the time, they take it upon themselves to murder children in the womb, as well, if they have the technology and the means — see China, Communist.

    For that matter, does it say something negative about our laws that we prescribe much less of a penalty for killing a newborn or a toddler, than for killing an adult? Or is it proof of pragmatism? Questions to ponder…

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    According to reports, the Bishops were “uncomfortable” with ObamaCare and the nun who runs Catholic Health virtually carried the bill on her back to get it passed.

    In fact, the issues were well known at the time and to say anything else is a flat lie.

    Abortion will be next. I look forward to coming back and defending the Bishops then. Instead of castigating them for refusing to defend the defenseless.

    There really isn’t anything you can’t justify is there. [not a question]

  • jakeofalltrades

    conceded.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Republican Senators – they simply refuse to use their tools. They like the sound of their voices more than they like the weight of their responsibilities. And unfortunately, they, as with their Republican leadership counterparts, are not the ones who pay the price for their cowardice.

    And, for the record, I chose the word “cowardice” carefully and deliberately.

  • jakeofalltrades

    I guess the Vatican is its own insular society with its own internal forces at work,, not unlike Congress, and in both cases alien and at times averse to the interests of those they rule and serve.

  • aesthete

    but as a matter of degrees, the US and the developed West are miles away better than the rest of the world when it comes to basic morality.

    abortion+miscellaneous government stupidity and petty evil > abortion+miscellaneous government stupidity and petty evil+murder+torture+forced abortions+rape squads+theft…

  • acat

    You’ll see that I used those Catholics known to me as a reference. I’ll note that there is a distinction between “Catholics don’t move as a bloc” and “There are several Catholic blocs”, and will take it that you acknowledged my point.

    I do not have a problem with Tbone’s suggestion of whipping the Bishops in front of their children as a metaphor for dragging the corruption of the church hierarchy into the daylight.

    The only known cure for the level of corruption that is indicated by the Bishops’ tacit support for Obama (Notre Dame commencement speaker and honorary degree recipient) and other pro-abortion Catholic Dems (notably Pelosi and Fat Teddy Kennedy) is sunlight … specifically, Catholics publicly asking questions about *why* the Bishops aren’t doing more to hold politicians responsible on this and other issues…

    You’re welcome to disagree with this approach, but the question needs to be asked .. and I’ll optimistically agree with your assessment that the blatant nature of Obama’s anti-Catholic stance will not only get the questions asked, but get some Catholic blocs behind ABO (Anybody But Obama) in the general election.

    I will not, however, hold my breath.

    Mew

  • http://electionsanalysis.blog.com paint_it_red

    titling a post “Dumb Catholics and Dumb Jews” and then going on to say Jews need to know better who the anti-Semites are, therefore, vote with you, is laden with irony.

    And no, quoting MLK – whose point was that meaningful civil change cannot be brought about through immoral means is not ironic in the context of what I was saying at all.

    I wonder – are you as disrespectful to people to their faces as you are when sitting at your keyboard?

  • Tbone

    “I wonder

  • altexas

    If the major premise of your syllogism is “that’s simply a load of crap.” you, I and everyone else knows you have failed in your position.