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Obama Vindicates Rick Perry on Social Security

The Bernie Madoff Retirement Plan


The major controversy right now in the GOP presidential primaries is over Rick Perry’s contention that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme that can’t deliver on its promises under its current structure. Mitt Romney doesn’t exactly dispute this – in fact, Romney himself said the same thing in his book, but then Romney always did like to attack other Republicans for things he himself has said or done – but Romney’s argument is that you can’t say these things out loud and win elections.

Well, President Obama last night handed Perry a huge gift, by providing a vivid illustration of how Perry is right about Social Security.

Here is what the President said:

[The American Jobs Act] will provide a tax break for companies who hire new workers, and it will cut payroll taxes in half for every working American and every small business. It will provide a jolt to an economy that has stalled, and give companies confidence that if they invest and hire, there will be customers for their products and services…

Pass this jobs bill, and starting tomorrow, small businesses will get a tax cut if they hire new workers or raise workers’ wages. Pass this jobs bill, and all small business owners will also see their payroll taxes cut in half next year. If you have 50 employees making an average salary, that’s an $80,000 tax cut. And all businesses will be able to continue writing off the investments they make in 2012.

This proposal is an extension of a prior temporary payroll tax cut that was part of the extension of the Bush tax cuts passed by the lame-duck session of the last Congress at the end of 2010:

The cut affects the 46 percent of all Americans who pay payroll taxes but do not qualify to pay federal income taxes. In the bipartisan deal last December to keep the Bush-era tax cuts in place for another two years, lawmakers signed off on a proposal to reduce the percentage of taxes that workers pay towards Social Security from 6.2 to 4.2 percent. That rate is set to go back up to previous levels on Jan. 1, unless Congress acts.

Now, as an initial matter, the problem with temporary cuts in the payroll tax is that they don’t provide much incentive to hire new permanent workers. This is a recurring issue with Obama’s proposals, like how he tried to use temporary stimulus payments to induce states to take on more permanent obligations under Medicaid, a deal a number of Governors rejected. If I’m a business owner, this sort of payroll tax cut may persuade me to hire more temporary or seasonal workers, but I’d be leery of creating new permanent positions knowing that the tax will pop back up as soon as we’re past the 2012 election. There’s certainly a good case to be made for slashing the payroll tax in the long haul – which would require fundamentally reworking how Social Security is funded – but as an economic matter a temporary payroll tax holiday is mostly a gimmick that will offer only a very limited bang for its buck.

Which brings us to the fiscal impact. If you take at face value the defenders of the Social Security status quo, their theory is that Social Security is not supposed to be a welfare program but a pension plan: workers pay into the system, which places their wages in a “trust fund” and later pays them back a defined benefit. As Perry – and Romney, in his book – notes, the system doesn’t actually run that way. The only “assets” in the trust fund are “I owe me” bonds reflecting that the taxpayers will be asked to come up with revenues in the future, the same kinds of “my own debts are my assets” accounting that got Enron in trouble; meanwhile, the government spends the money as soon as it comes in, and hopes that it will continue getting enough future payroll tax revenue to pay future benefits. This is the textbook definition of how a Ponzi scheme operates and precisely why such schemes – as we saw with Bernie Madoff – inevitably go bust when they can’t keep expanding.

Social Security already has that problem, as the most recent Trustees Report makes clear:

Social Security expenditures exceeded the program’s non-interest income in 2010 for the first time since 1983. The $49 billion deficit last year (excluding interest income) and $46 billion projected deficit in 2011 are in large part due to the weakened economy and to downward income adjustments that correct for excess payroll tax revenue credited to the trust funds in earlier years.

With retirees living longer and benefits having been expanded in various ways over the years, the number of current workers supporting each current retiree has plunged dramatically since the program was established, a problem that will only get worse with declining birthrates and the Baby Boom generation entering retirement age. In other words, the conditions for ever-widening Social Security deficits are upon us already and will, by design of the current system, only get worse. The bill for the longstanding pattern of both parties on Capitol Hill raiding the program’s surplus income to spend on other things has come due.

And with this crisis upon us and only designed to grow, what does President Obama propose? An even bigger bite out of the income of a program already in deficit:

Obama plans to cut revenues by $245 billion, or 36%, of the entire annual revenue (projected at $687 billion) of the so-called trust fund. Being that he will ostensibly slash half of payroll taxes, that number is surely too low…

This is the point in the storyline where a guy like Madoff gets led out in handcuffs. Let Obama make the argument that extending the temporary payroll tax cut is an economic necessity; we can have the argument about whether this is the best way to cut tax burdens on businesses and workers. But what he can’t do is pretend is that Social Security is sacrosanct when just last night he went before the nation and proposed gutting its only source of funding just as it’s plunged into the red. The next time Governor Perry lays out his case against the flim-flam accounting behind Social Security and its manifest inability to pay for its own promises, he will have fresh ammunition direct from the man he hopes to face in the general election.

COMMENTS

  • bobojake

    No increase in two years and obamacare forced increases in health insurance cost.. Gasoline is almost $2.00 a gallon higher then when obama took office and in 2006 when obamacrats reid, pelosi and obama passed their firat energy bill with control of Senate and House. Utilities costs are higher, clothes are higher, food costs are soaring and Romey doesn’t think it is a PONTZI Scheme. If obama wasn’t hiding behind his Office he would have a seat beside Rezco and Madhoff.

    • radicalrabbi

      What Mad King Barry the First has done thus far, has done nothing but embolden our enemies. He has gone around the world, especially in the Middle East and apologized for what has been done to them by the United States.
      He has ruined our economy; this aids our enemies, his apologies, although considered “buffoonery” by many in Europe, have given comfort to our enemies. By the very definition of “treason” as given in Article III section 3 of the Constitution, Barry should be arrested and tried for his crimes, along with his minions that are equally guilty of this heinous crime. However, as long as Eric Holder holds the reins at Justice, this will never happen.
      Regardless of which Republican wins the nomination and whips him at the polls, this action will never occur. A true constitutional “warrior” is not running; not even Ron Paul who has about the same chance as a snowball’s chance on the equator, would not hold them accountable.
      If the Constitution is to hold any weight in the future, then all of it must apply, but there is no one running that has the “stones” to do it.
      Truly a pity.

  • bk

    I hear nothing from Democrats or AARP about the payroll tax gimmick being a raid on the SS “lockbox”.

    • YnotNOW

      is probably a good sound-bite way to counter the inate attractiveness of the promise of “free money.”
      Free money comes from somewhere – in this case SS retirement benefits, and therefore really out of general tax revenues and borrowing.

      Of course, we need to keep in mind that the “lock box” or SS Trust Fund is and always will be a myth.
      http://www.redstate.com/ynotnow/2011/04/04/the-myth-of-the-social-security-trust-fund/

      • vandalii

        Don’t bite the Democratic hand that feeds you…

        • uselogic

          ….model is Moochelle. And the lead story features her and Joe Biden.

    • carolynr

      I tore up my AARP membership and cancelled by dental and supplemental health insurance. I will not fund an organization that helped put Obamacare into effect. These people care about money…not seniors and the sooner people figure it out…the faster they are out of the marketplace…UNLESS the blessed one makes their organization a branch of the Federal Government!!!

  • izoneguy

    Senior citizens sit around staring at blank walls all day, don’t eat or drive, or god forbid watch TV or get on the internet!

    Rick Perry could do more for senior citizens than Obama can ever promise.

    Driving down the cost of food & gas and getting people to work to bolster the SS system is what Rick Perry will do. Rick Perry won’t ask more in taxes from anyone.

    • http://www.twitter.com/AWG9_yoyo yoyo

      If you file jointly: Two (or three) working folks to support one retiree.

      It sure sounds like a Dependent to me.

      • izoneguy

        Can you claim them as dependents???

        • vandalii

          Had that happen this year. Since she’s on Social Security and Medicare, she’s technically independent of us. Tell that to my house ;-)

          • MF

            I’m not a tax advisor or anything, but I believe the criterion is that you must be providing more than 50% of the parent’s upkeep. Make sure that you include in your calculations the fair market value of the rent that you would charge a boarder for the room that she occupies. Also include a pro-rated amount of the various utilities (gas, electric, TV, phone, heck, even Internet even if she doesn’t use it, because she *could*) your household pays, and food and clothing if you pay for them. But also take into account the money she receives for Social Security, Medicare, any of those kinds of things.

            Tax attornies, please correct me if I’m wrong, and provide any other tips (on either the + or – side of the balance sheet) that I didn’t include.

            Just trying to help, and sincere apologies if I’m wrong…

        • vandalii

          Had that happen this year. Since she’s on Social Security and Medicare, she’s technically independent of us. Tell that to my house ;-)

  • sayoung80913

    My husband’s home of record is Texas. He is active duty but still votes by absentee ballot . We have watched Perry do this same strategy time and again. he sets a careful trap and lets his opponent fall in. His team remains purposely vague or silent for a day or two and then -boom-down goes the hammer.
    I am convinced he did this same exact scenario with Sen KBH last year- the letter to Hillary was “leaked” and a desperate KBH(and Rove) jumped like sharks after blood soaked chum…. no response from Perrry and then -BOOM- that video with Sen KBH lavishing praise over Hillary and showing them arm in arm. This is the same thing , Mitt put in print the words he says Perry can’t say out loud. Now what-who read his book? No one,how many will be treated to his words on this and other things now?
    Perry has accomplished on the sneak, what Bush struggled to do as a President with a bully pulpit- people are actually asking “IS SSN a Ponzi scheme? ” CHRIS MATTHEWS said the same thing last night! The conversation has started, the ball is rolling. The time is right for this to happen and conservatives will remember that Romney is the one who tried to preserve the status quo even though in his own book he said the exact opposite.

    • msctex

      What gets me is that all Perry does is play the game intelligently. It has just been so long that we have seen a Republican willing to fight back, that it comes as almost a revelation. And you’re right: his pattern is to use a well-timed attack of his opponents’ own words and deeds — like Judo, using their own motion against them. What he did to KBH was so effective it was almost cringe-inducing.

      Politics 101, but it has been so long since we’ve seen it.

      • sayoung80913

        His campaign manager is just as sharp as a whip. I am convinced that months,maybe even years,before taking on an opponent, they have scoured Perry’s record for any little thing that can be exploited and used against him, and then the oppo research begins. The opponent’s writings ,speeches,votes,press conferences,etc are pored through for a rebuttal,just like in a court case.They hold it in check,like an ace in the hole until it is needed.
        Reminds me once of what my husband did to one of his soldiers, during a work day he happened to drive past a soldier’s house on the way to an appointment and see his car outside-it was 10:00 a.m.He called the soldier and asked where he was and the guy said he was at the hospital at an appointment. Well, my husband was parked outside his house and could clearly see him sitting on his couch thru the window. so he drove off and checked with the hospital for any appointment made by the soldier. Turns out the clinic in question had been closed due to an emergency with a gas leak. No one was allowed in side and hadn’t been all day. So,my husband let the guy return to work and asked him all about his appointment,where the guy preceded to complain about how scatterbrained his doctor had acted. He went on for ten or so minutes before my husband lowered the boom. Perry does the same thing,it is hilarious to watch-fascinating actually

        • msctex

          . . .than Obama is truly difficult to imagine. The Dems cannot allow a debate between the two: it would be a rhetorical bloodbath. It is why I do not expect him to be the nominee, unless by default. I loathe Obama, but it would be difficult to watch him be dissected only because of the imputation for the country as a whole; his being laughed at in Congress the other night was bad enough. (Not that they shouldn’t have laughed — we should not have a laughable President.) The idea he is even a possibility is truly frightening.

  • http://wingright.org bnuckols

    Negative income for SS program, and Obama claims to save the program by eliminating more income. Oh, but the people already paying taxes will just pay more.
    Here, we have that moment de Toqueville warned us about: Politicians bribe the majority with money taken from the minority. AKA Circus and Bread.

    • izoneguy

      to the tune of 500 Billion…….

      Funny how Obama’s “new” stimulus is about 450 Billion……

      • runner12

        Already they are denying adaptive equipment right and left to children with disabilities; something I knew would happen.

        The next time Obama complains that Republicans want to take away funding from children with autism or Down Syndrome, he needs to take a look in the mirror at himself. It is his ObamaCare monstrousity that has hurt this population immensely.

      • Scope

        I remembered reading long ago about the three counties in Texas that opted out of SS, when they were still allowed to in the late 70′s early 80′s. I’ve read some articles about Perry, interviewed on TV, and talked about the success of the opted-out counties. He has said he wants to let states opt out.

        I found this article which is from May 2011, and has some info about the success of that program.

        “How did they do? Three decades later, Galveston County employees take home pensions with a nearly 7% average return compounded over 30 years.

        By contrast, SS recipients got a 1% to 2% return and newer workers will get even less. So Galveston’s retirement checks are about 4 times the size of SS and come with life insurance, too.

        At the time 50 other Texas counties signed up to join Galveston, so in 1983 Rep. Jack Brooks, D-Texas saw a threat the Galveston system posed to politicians’ use of the SS trust fund as their own slush fund.”

        I believe it was in 1983 Congress passed legislation that no longer allowed anyone to opt out of SS.

        I also found a pdf file, put out by the SS admin. in 2005 talking about why the Galveston plan didn’t work. They of course bring up the fact that if too many people were allowed to opt-out, there would not be enough money in the fund to pay all of the current and future SS beneficiaries. There was also a statement that the Galveston plan didn’t “redistribute” the funds from the high earners to the lower earners and was not a fair and equal system. That was about the time that Bush had proposed looking at private accounts, that Congress wouldn’t even touch, even though in 2005, Bush had majorities in both houses. HA! Those danged 2006 elections.

        izoneguy, do you know any more about the Galveston plan, it’s successes and etc? What would you think of a similar system being introduced as a possible SS reform as we transition away from the current system?

        • izoneguy

          The Galveston Plan and Social Security: A Comparative Analysis of Two Systems

          Read on pg 3 – Investments

          “Funds are invested in Group Fixed Annuity Contracts issued through the American United Life Insurance Company, which offer a guaranteed minimum return on investment.”

          This is the biggest difference between the “Galveston Plan” and regular SS.
          You see the politicians cannot spend the money in the Galveston Plan.

          Secure in Galveston

          Other jurisdictions took note of Galveston’s innovation and began planning to emulate it. Over 200 other counties, as well as many cities, entered into discussions with First Financial Group about joining the plan. Then Congress intervened and killed expansion of the idea as part of its 1983 plan to rescue Social Security from bankruptcy.

          Legislators had already decided to dragoon all federal employees into the Social Security system when they discovered that hundreds of thousands of county and city workers around the country were preparing to leave and set up versions of the Galveston plan. Congress swiftly closed the barn door and canceled the opt-out for local governments in 1983. Fortunately, Galveston, Brazoria, and Matagorda counties were allowed to continue their plans under a grandfather clause.

          The Galveston Plan isn’t the only example of local and state governments running superior retirement systems outside of Social Security. Five states — California, Nevada, Maine, Ohio, and Colorado — run their own retirement plans, as do many local police and fire departments. All of these plans show what Americans can do to create better and more flexible retirement systems if they are left alone to innovate.

          “It’s time for the rest of us to follow the 25-year- old example of Galveston, and get back to the future,” says Steve Forbes, the publisher of Forbes magazine. “Personal retirement accounts such as those proposed by President Bush will give every American the opportunity to secure some of the benefits people in three Texas counties enjoy.”

  • http://www.twitter.com/AWG9_yoyo yoyo

    Who, in today’s world of Baby-Boomers, actually RELY on SS income as the sole source of retirement? Or Primary source?

    Maybe I am just too young (if 40 is young) to get this, but my retirement plan doesnt include SS. Am I the only one? If SS went away (not in a gradual sense, but suddenly) what would the impact on baby-boomers retirement? Would they ALL starve as we are led to believe, or (as I suspect) would America find out that – for the most part – the boomers were smart enough to save for retirement and don’t really need my money?

    YES, I KNOW that there is a significant percentage (15 or so) that DO NOT have anything else and would be in trouble, but that percentage IS sustainable and would fit more into the intent of SS as opposed to what is present today.

    I also know this: The pulling of teeth and gnashing of hair would be great. All that money that we have been (or would be) giving them would disappear and an adjustment period from the quality of life that is enjoyed at my expense (3000 sq ft houses for two people) would be difficult, but I bet that they would survive. And MY generation would begin to become a bit more thrifty, too.

    • bobojake

      According to Jason Fichtner, Ph.D. (as cited by Robert Powell in his column titled Social Security: A Little Light Summer Reading), ?66% of all beneficiaries now rely on Social Security for 50% or more of their income in retirement, while 35% rely on benefits for 90% or more of their income.?

      • http://www.twitter.com/AWG9_yoyo yoyo

        How many NEED it?

        Is the need based on living comfortably in retirement or extravagantly in retirement? If it is to maintain a current level of living that involves two new, leased vehicles, a 3200 sqft house and wintering over in Costa Rica – THERE just may be a problem there.

        Regardless of what is legislated or spouted from BHO, Boomers are NOT entitled to my money – or at least they shouldnt be. My sons and daughter arent entitled to it, as they have found to their dismay when demanding toys at Walmart, so grandma and grandpa hippy certainly are not!

        • YnotNOW

          because “need” vs. “want” is a sliding scale.
          The bottom line is that too many people have bought into the lie that Government will take care of them, and so they blew their paycheck on current expenses and did not save, and thus now they are totally dependent upon that monthly SS check to eat.

          That is why reform of SS must be phased in and “grandfather” the current or near retirees, because they have based their planning upon this ponzi scheme.

          http://www.redstate.com/ynotnow/2011/04/04/the-myth-of-the-social-security-trust-fund/

        • bk

          If I recall correctly, any time a Republican has suggested means-testing SS, Democrats have immediately screamed that it’s the first step down the slippery scope of the GOP scheme to eliminate the entire SS program.

          Here is an example from AARP:

          Imposing a means test could destroy the most successful social program in our country’s history. Social Security does need moderate changes to restore its long-term fiscal health. The sooner we make those changes, the more modest they can be. But Social Security does not need a change that would alter its fundamental character, create incentives against saving for retirement, and undermine its popular support. A means test would do just that.

          • actuarius

            Look at the benefit formula. Someone making minimum wage receives a significantly higher portion of their average income than someone making the max.

          • bk

            If it’s a safety net, people like Bill Gates, Barbra Streisand, Rush, Warren Buffet, and the Clintons have no need to receive it, and what they contributed is pocket change to them.

            If it’s intended to provide some sort of security to elderly retired people who have extremely limited incomes, then millionaires don’t need it.

          • actuarius

            It is a pension supplement that is intended to provide a base for everyone who participates.

        • actuarius

          They paid into a pension scheme. They were told that if they paid, they would get a benefit. For many, what they paid would fund their SS benefit and more if it had not been forced on them.

          These are not people who are on welfare. They are not government union members who have an unholy alliance with Democrat legislators to provide pensions that the taxpayer can’t afford. These are people who paid their entire lives for a promised benefit. And in the meantime paid the cash for the prior generation to retire and much of the excess for their own projected SS benefits ($2.5 trillion worth).

          The primary problem is a lack of appropriate management and oversight. The most egregious being the continuation of a funding mechanism which relies on younger generations to pay, but includes simple things like failing to make changes in retirement age to reflect advances in longevity.

        • carolina

          when both had good jobs for most of their careers.
          That’s for now.
          And, if they wait until age 70 to start they get 8% more each year after ‘full retirement’ age of 66 or 67,
          I think any means testing would have to be done on a prorated scale.
          Also, remember, SS does qualify for income tax.

          • actuarius

            $4200 per couple would imply about $2800 for the worker benefit. To get $2800 per month at retirement today under the current formula

            (90% of 749) + (32% of ($4517 -$749)) + (15% over $4517)

            would require a SS average of $10,000 per month or so over the last 35 years. The SS Max is still not there.

            I don’t know what you mean by a prorated scale in this context.

    • actuarius

      high proportion does not determine necessity. For my entire working career as an actuary, I used a dynamic financial plan to make a variety of decisions, including when to retire. Until about 15 years prior to retiring, I put zero in for my projected SS benefit. As I got closer to when I might retire, I started putting in more (first 25% of it, then 50% a few years later, etc.). Finally, I used the full SS benefit to make my decision about when to retire.

      It is about 25% of my retirement income (which is about 25% lower today than it was prior to the financial crisis). At this point, I can’t un-retire. That 25% may not be everything, but it is vital.

      In other words, we rely on the income even if it isn’t our sole source. Whether it is our sole source or not is irrelevant. You’ll get that soon enough.

      As to fairness, I hold on to this: I kept meticulous records of OASDI payments and investment income after tax. If my and my employers’ payments accumulate at my after tax interest to retirement, then the average there after, I would be able to take a pension of more than 50% more than I will get from SS.

      SS uses an outdated funding mechanism that creates the issues you rightly highlight. That doesn’t make the current beneficiaries the equivalent of welfare recipients. We paid even more into SS than you have so far.

      SS is an inter-generational pact. My generation paid for the benefits for the prior generation, plus $2.5 trillion extra to pay the additional benefits that would come from being the largest cohort group on either side of history. The current deficit is the first in history and caused by an unexpected shortfall in revenues due to the recession and silly “holidays.” Without it, there wouldn’t be one. The real problem is long term and caused by the projected benefits to your generation and beyond, coupled with the benefits of the youngest of the Boomers.

      • http://www.twitter.com/AWG9_yoyo yoyo

        But as the bk stated above, a means-test should be in place. Also, as noted, it is supposed to be a safety net (just ask our President) for the elderly, not the retirement program that it has become.

        I truly believe that there should be a program (like SS and Medicare) that the Federal Government should fund – through voluntary contributions – for a Senior Citizen Safety Net – when there truly is a need. However, that net should be just that – temporary in nature until that person no longer needs it. Not unlike a very lean version of Unemployment (even as abhorently abused as that system is.)

        All the advances in medicine – that Obamacare doesnt want to pay for – has given us a higher life expectancy, but additionally it gives us the ability to work longer into our elderly years. As an arbritrary number, 67-1/2 isnt all that old. My Dad is 70 next year. He and his wife retired 14 years ago at 56 (and 60, respectively). He is still spry, works every day, and owns his house. However, as a computer programmer and systems analyst (he spent 30 yrs doing that), there was nothing other than choice that kept him from continuing to work. And the funny thing is this: They do not need SS at all, but to participate in Medicare, they are forced to participate in SS. …I wonder why that is?

        You are right, it is an inter-generational pact, except there are quickly becoming more of you than there are of me, and at some point in the future SS will become a program where each household must take in one Senior Citizen for each working member in the house (figuratively speaking.) What kind of safety net is that? This is not something that you, or my dad, mom, aunts, or uncles have to worry with. Y’all will be gone by the time I (and those of my generation) become the forced fiscal burden on my kids and grandkids.

        So, the burden of fixing it has become my generation’s responsibility so the next two generations to not have to bear this fiscal yoke.

        That is what is expected of our new “inter-generational pact.”

        • actuarius

          Look at the formula. Those that made little get a huge benefit relative to what they made. Those that made a lot get a little. Minimum wage earners get about two thirds of their average income. Median wage earners ($50,000 per year) get about 40% of their average income. Maximum wage earners ($106,000) get about 29%. All those are for retirees this year at full retirement age (66).

          As to fixing it, look at the history. In the 1970s, the actuaries and career SS employees pointed out just the problem you perceive today. The result was a significant decrease in benefits through the increase in the normal age at retirement and an increase in “premiums.” The increase in funding changed the philosophy of SS from pay as you go to pre-pay partially. It happened because they recognized that there was no way that the succeeding generations were going to be big enough to pay for the Boomers. So, the Boomers were told that, after paying for the preceding generation, they were going to have to pay for the excess costs of their generation. They (and you) have paid a significantly increased FICA, which has amounted to about $2.5 trillion above what was necessary to pay the benefits between then and now. Like a family which saves for an obligation by putting money away in savings, then increasing their credit card debt by the same amount, the Congress has stolen the intended increase in net worth to pay for those excess benefits. Don’t blame the Boomers for that.

          The key for your generation is to get SS stopped for you as soon as possible so that you can fund your own pensions. You may want something with SS philosophy (a supplement for everyone), but you will want to fund your own. Not having to face your benefits (which under SS are the main cause of the huge unfunded liabilities) will make it easier for you to pay off what is hopefully the last generation under this idiotic funding mechanism.

    • cbartlett

      I agree. I am a little older than you (tail end of the Baby Boomers) and we never really thought that there would be Soc Sec available for us – not as a primary source anyway. We have been working on various other means of possible future support for many years. BUT – I will say that it really bugs me that I had to put so much into a sinking ship for all of these years. Especially since a majority of what my husband and I have put in is at the higher self-employment rate. If I’d had that money to invest in our businesses, we would have been in better shape before all of this *** hit the fan recently. I read about a study somewhere that said a poll of our generation said a majority of us would be happy if we could just get out what we put in and sign off on the whole nanny state plan for the future. A plan like that could tell you exactly how many of us had prepared like you said and which ones would need the fallback plan. I do think the other huge problem with this is that you HAVE to sign up for SS in order to get Medicare and I haven’t seen any private insurance companies that will even insure you at all, even if you wanted to pay for it, if you are eligible for Medicare. There goes that same old problem again – “lack of individual responsibility”.

      • actuarius

        just what you are saying. We pleaded for reform (in my case as a citizen and as an actuary, fully aware of the issues), and we volunteered to pay off the preceding generation if we could put the rest in our own pension plans.

        But they kept taking the money. Now I’ve paid an amount that, with after tax interest, would fund a pension 50% more than what I could get from SS, and I’m a little scratchy about all this talk that my generation is the equivalent of welfare queens.

  • harpsichord

    Now that the “base” is just approx. 3 workers paying for each benficiary, and that base will soon be approx. 2 workers per beneficiary, it’s time to call SS an “obelisk scheme”.

    • http://www.baseballcrank.com Dan McLaughlin

      May use it.

    • vandalii

      What we’re seeing in baby-boomer, Gen X & Gen Y is a “max my lifestyle” approach. When working people choose to get married (which is rarer than ever :-( ), many choose to have 0 or maybe 1 child. Europe and Japan are in even worse shape — they’ve been having <2 children per family for decades. Assuming "working people" that have children will teach their children to become "working people" also (which statistics is *not* showing to be a shoo-in), the parents will provide a replacement of 50% (or 0%) to support their SS in their old age. Lather-rinse-repeat, the baby-boom grandparent will now have 25% replacement to support them in SS. etc. etc.

      To make matters worse, the non-working people *are* have babies. Lots of babies. And without fathers or mothers that can teach them how to become "working people". So "working people" get to support both the older "working people's" SS and the non-working people's medicaid, so the desire to have 2 or more children becomes even more distant purely based on economics.

      But *everyone* gets vote…which the Dems figured out a long time ago…

  • http://whattoreadtoday.blogspot.com/ Paula

    Frank Lunz needs to run some focus groups with senior citizens and 20-year olds and find out exactly what they believe and think they know about SS. How many of the 20-year-olds think they will get anything out of their “contributions?” How many of the seniors think it is a Ponzi scheme?

    The GOP needs to quit guessing about what they think seniors think about SS. I have a feeling they are making decisions about their messaging (and the nominee) based on an electorate they think is ignorant and susceptible to the Dems’ fear-mongering. I just don’t believe the electorate is that dumb. At least not on our side.

  • Xasteius

    <script src="http://player.ooyala.com/player.js?embedCode=ltdGRzMjrkqQ_MQthNzY7d-cjCRIo_Qx&deepLinkEmbedCode=ltdGRzMjrkqQ_MQthNzY7d-cjCRIo_Qx"

    • Xasteius

  • Adjoran

    if we want to win Florida.

    Not that there is anything good about the system, not that the Chilean system or any of a number of variants would not be better for all and sustainable. It’s just not a huge issue for this election cycle, and making it one entails needless risks, giving the Democrats a chance to attack.

    With insane spending and runaway debt, record unemployment, sagging home prices, and a double dip recession closing in, the last thing we need is to give the hapless Obama team ammunition.

    We can deal with this after the higher priority items, those requiring immediate attention. Don’t be stupid.

    • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

      I never held to that view. The only reason that Social Security was such a hot rail issue in the past is because the collapse was not imminent. So the Democrats and their lackeys could get away with demogoging it.

      Now, however things are very different. With the rise of the new media and a less naive electorate, the demogoging in not working, and everyone knows the system is about to collapse.

      Hiding from reality is no prescription for election either, not when things are as dismal as they are now.

    • Scope

      if we are going to look at spending problems, aren’t the entitlements the area that will collapse our economy first. They are unfunded liabilities that must be paid until the entitlements are reformed.

      Yes Fla. is filled with many blue hairs, but, how did/does Rubio still win elections while fighting against the unfunded mandates?

      • actuarius

        What do you mean by entitlements? Welfare, SS, and Medicare are commonly lumped together, but they are very different programs with what should be different principles to determine the appropriate way to deal with each.

        I say this because they have vastly different support from the general revenue and vastly different amounts were put in by the beneficiaries themselves. Welfare beneficiaries get 100% from general revenue and have put in nothing. SS beneficiaries have received nothing from the general revenue (some argument about this year and next) and have paid for the benefit entirely (including current SS participants who are supposed to receive benefits). Medicare beneficiaries between past and current premiums pay about half of the benefit with general revenue paying for the remainder.

        SS currently has no negative impact on the deficit, and it has not contributed to the deficit, except for the fact that Congress has taken excess funds and spent them. In the distant future (over thirty years) SS deficits using the current funding and benefit formulas will be huge. We need to get that under control. It has practically nothing to do with today’s SS.

        Medicare gets about $250 B from general revenue, and it is growing. It needs reformed. That’s a long conversation. Short answer is to do what will work for the rest of the population: more responsibility of financial matters to the patient.

        Welfare and unemployment are the “entitlements” that are huge and need current reform. Think that will happen now?

  • skorrent1

    When the Dems and the Pres can admit that the “payroll tax” is a TAX that all workers pay, and that some workers struggle to pay, SS has lost its third rail status.

    This began to happen when the Dems pushed too hard on their “tax the rich” meme. The GOP responded with the stats that “50% pay no (income) taxes and the rich pay 70% of the (personal income) taxes”. The Dems had to respond that workers did, too, pay TAXES, and that for 2/3 of the workers payroll taxes were the most taxes they paid. (Payroll tax revenue is about the same as personal income tax revenue.) From that point they have to admit that taxes are taxes, and that the govt “needs” all the revenue it can get. So it’s perfectly reasonable (in fact more important to their base) for BO to give people a “tax cut” by cutting payroll taxes, just as W did by cutting income taxes.

    This just confirms what we conservatives have known for a long time; these taxes are just two revenue streams to the Treasury, promises to the contrary notwithstanding. This means that “tax reform” should have as much impact on payroll taxes as on income taxes.

    Fair Tax, anyone?

    • JSobieski

      The third rail is only on the outgoing payments side, it was never on the incoming taxes side.

      I agree with the logic of what you said, but the politics of it just isn’t so.

  • Scope

    from the On The Issues site.

    “Rein in the excessive growth in entitlement programs

    The Bush revolution and the downturn that we faced when he came in office suggested that we needed a tax cut. There?s no question in my mind that Reagan would have said sign it and vote for it. McCain was one of two that did not. The justification at the time was because it represents a tax cut for the rich. I believe in getting rates down. That builds our economy. Right now, federal spending is about 60% for entitlements: Social security, Medicare and Medicaid. That?s growing like crazy. It will be 70% entitlements, plus interest, by the time of the next president?s second term. Then the military is about 20% today. No one is talking about cutting the military, we ought to grow it. There?s not enough in the 20% to go after if we don?t go after the entitlement problem. We?re going to rein in the excessive growth in those areas. We?re not going to change the deal on seniors, but we?re going to have to change the deal for 20 and 30 and 40-year-olds, or we?re going to bankrupt our country.
    Source: 2008 Republican debate at Reagan Library in Simi Valley Jan 30, 2008″

    • http://www.baseballcrank.com Dan McLaughlin

      …but if he burns down Perry over this, how can he face down the same attacks to tackle entitlements? Fatally compromised.

      • Scope

        But I know that was Romney running against McCain in 08, and as with most of what Romney says today, it will change against another candidate tomorrow. So what Perry said actually was in agreement with the 08 Romney, but Romney thinks he can flip, and use his old position against Perry. Agreed, fatal blow if Romney prolongs the attack, which I suspect he will. Perry has many many opportunities to point out Romney’s 08 position, and make it into yet another flip flop.

  • devereaux

    Perry is right of course, but I fear his position might cost the Republicans the state of Florida in 2012, And there’s no way the GOP can win without Florida. The Dems are going to go after the Senior vote big time on this. I’ll be 69 in November and some of Geeezers I play golf with regulary think he made a mistake. If he gets the nomination he will come under withering attack. Obama plans to raise a billion dollars.

    Think Paul Ryan’s very modest proposal for Medicare and the TV ad the Democrats ran in Wisconsin of some guy pushing Granny over the cliff. . Imagine ads like that in South Florida ten times over.

    • acat

      that we do need Marco Rubio for veep.

      Mew

    • Kyle-MI

      But did those ads have any affect?
      The ads were not playing during an election, so they did not affect Ryan’s political position.
      Ryan did not back down from his proposal.
      The ad was ridiculously over the top. Did anybody take it seriously?
      Would anybody take a similar ad in FL during the presidential race seriously?

    • aesthete

      What Perry said was accurate (or at least, more so than what others have said), but politically unwise. On the positive side, Perry’s addressed the entitlements issue in a very straightforward way, and has brought the discussion of entitlements back to the fore. This is a discussion that is necessary for Republicans to have if conservatives are to have any hope of reforming/repealing entitlements in the near and distant future, respectively. On the down side, the positive side doesn’t matter if the Republican doesn’t get elected: in fact, it makes the job that much more difficult, since a high-profile candidate getting burned based on his stance on Social Security will dissuade some Republicans from getting onboard with reform in the future.

      On the whole, I do appreciate Perry not backing down — but I do wish that he had been more tactful on the subject, as Paul Ryan has been.

  • publious

    It will take decades to reverse the damage if we make the same mistake…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro1Yjk1P-RY

  • jout99

    How many seniors and boomers voted for the very people that ransacked Social Security? Or couldn’t be bothered to pay attention at all?

    If they would have paid attention (like the Tea Party today) back when the SS was first raided, we might be having a different conversation today.

    Should the ones that allowed politicians to steal our money have to pay the piper now?

    I know I’m a newby at this blog. Take my comments for what their worth.

  • arthurmanger17

    I have written here many times about Erick’s push of Perry and his to man race scenario. After the last debate and his first I’m becoming a supporter. The debate tonight will tell how strong that support will become. But, it is still to early to dismiss the others, if for no other reason than the volume of the opposing argument against Obama and his Democrats.

  • carolynr

    I’ve been writing about this since Obama started with the payroll tax cut. I have also been writing that Perry is spot on with the Ponzi Scheme reference. The MSM called it a gaffe along with Rove, who has now become the GOP Speech Police. It was not a gaffe. Oh, how I love to listen to the Democratic BS about how we love our seniors and would never let them down,…blah…blah…blah. Then he cuts and cuts the payroll tax. Think he loves granny…think again…Obama also took out a half trillion in Medicare…and this year, like next…we pay more for Medicare and supplements. That all being said….If I were younger…I would want this system reworked. I’d like to hear more about the system in Chile…or at least force the government to keep its hands off our monies.

    Why do you think that both parties want immigration reform…do you think they care about the plight of the Mexicans? No…we need them to pay into SS or the government will have another welfare program on its hands and seniors will lose what they have paid into and what little they have left in the form of assets…because the government will take it all from them…BECAUSE THEY ARE OUT OF MONEY.

    Can we restructure some of this in the short run…YES…GET THE HECK OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST. STOP WITH THE CAP AND TRADE…ANOTHER SCHEME TO REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH. (Romney likes that program)

    We need jobs…and the jobs will contribute to the wealth of the country.

    WHY DOES BARACK OBAMA WANT TO KILL OFF THE SENIORS…EASY…THEY ARE THE BIGGEST VOTING BLOCK IN AMERICA.