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On Romney, Bain and Keeping Your Integrity

Free Markets and Principles

We’re far down the rabbit hole of primary season right now, and that inevitably means that charges and counter-charges are flying so fast that the news cycle can change dramatically from morning to afternoon. Naturally, when things are moving this quickly and emotions are running high, people get carried away. This happens to everyone. A lot of people who sit on the sidelines are too quick to say, “oh, so-and-so totally lost credibility with me by making that argument.” But candidates and pundits in particular are making arguments all day long, day after day; they’re going to grab hold now and then of a story they should know better than to believe or an argument they should know better than to make. Like anything in life, the test of character is not the occasional stumble but the long sweep of your record over time – whether you back off when you’ve dug into an untenable position, whether you learn from mistakes.

This comes to mind with yesterday’s confluence of attacks on Mitt Romney‘s business record at Bain Capital and his ill-timed quip that “I like to be able to fire people.” To varying extents, the Gingrich and Perry campaigns and their supporters jumped all over him on both counts. A pro-Newt SuperPAC is rolling out a 27-minute documentary attacking Romney’s Bain record; as Erick notes, Perry’s campaign has been pushing a more modest line of attack against the Bain record, but still one that has something of a whiff of desperation about it. Perry’s camp also pushed a downloadable ringtone of Romney’s “fire” line. With time and some context, both campaigns backed off hitting Mitt on the “fire” comment: Perry’s people pulled the ringtone, and Newt told Fox News that the line had been taken out of context.

The “fire” comment is the easier call. Romney was making a completely valid point: that people should be able to fire service providers like insurance companies if they’re not getting good service. That’s one of the pro-consumer aspects of the conservative message, and where we part company from liberals who think first of protecting entrenched interests at the expense of consumer choice. That being said, the comment fed directly into the most damaging narratives about Romney, and was emblematic of how he’s much like Rick Santorum in terms of his tendency to use cringe-inducingly tin-eared language when he’s making even valid points.

The Bain storyline is a little more complicated, in part because there are a lot of angles to Bain’s business; while Romney’s record, as Jim Pethokoukis notes, includes a lot to be proud of, as Jonathan Last notes, you don’t have to necessarily take that business record as a whole if there are aspects worth defending and aspects worth criticizing.

A fair amount of what businesses like Bain do is to step in and take over businesses that are in bad shape. We have an ongoing debate in this country about what to do with failing businesses, but denying they’re failing is not an option – either you shutter or restructure them or you prop them up, and that raises the question of who gets stuck with the bill for propping them up. One of the great scandals of the past 5 years, which has given rise to the Tea Party and to some extent the Occupy Wall Street movement as well, has been the extent to which the answer to that question has been the taxpayers.

So, I don’t like seeing pro-free-market Republicans attacking the concept of what Bain does, any more than I liked seeing Romney attack Rick Perry from the left on entitlements. But just because the role of red-in-tooth-and-claw capitalists is a crucial and necessary one does not mean that they are likely to be popular candidates in today’s general election environment. Criminal defense lawyers, for example may be crucially necessary to our system of justice, but if they have represented a lot of unpopular clients, they are not likely to be politically viable. I continue to think that Romney’s business record is an under-explored political vulnerability (one Ted Kennedy used against Romney in 1994, but didn’t even use all the ads he cut) that the Democrats will exploit ruthlessly. And Romney’s existing defenses of that record are fairly weak. We should not be caught unawares by this in the summer and fall when it’s too late to pick another candidate. In many ways, it’s like the swift boat story. You’ll recall that the centerpiece of John Kerry’s electability argument in 2004 was his military record – not any policy proposal on national security, mind you, but the simple fact of his biography as a war hero. Given that Kerry had decades-old enemies from his activties as an anti-war protestor, it was unwise for Democrats to assume that this biographical narrative alone would go unchallenged in the general election. But that’s exactly what they did, and the Swift Boat Veterans’ ads (especially the ads using Kerry’s own Senate testimony from 1970) did terrible damage to Kerry.

Romney’s story is much the same. There’s no serious argument that Romney’s record of supporting free enterprise and job growth in his single term as Massachusetts governor is better than the records of Perry, Gingrich, Santorum and Huntsman; his claim to be a job creation specialist is grounded in his record at Bain, and just like Kerry’s war hero biography, this claim is bound to attract scrutiny. It would be foolishness in the extreme for Republicans to demand that nobody talk about this during the time when we’re choosing a candidate. The harder question, for free-market Republicans, is how to have a serious debate on this point without compromising our integrity and our principles.

The fear that Bain, and Romney’s wealth (by birth as well as his business wealth) will be a political liability is hardly fanciful. Look back over the years at the list of wealthy Republican candidates who put their wealth ahead of their limited records in public office. The California GOP has had the worst record: Bill Simon, Carly Fiorina, Meg Whitman, Michael Huffington, and Bruce Herschensohn all flopped. The positive example is Arnold Schwarzenegger, who proved a disaster for California conservatives in office. Simon, a good and decent man and fairly conservative, faced an opponent with approval ratings so terrible on Election Day that he was recalled just months later – yet the Democrats tore Simon limb from limb with attacks on his private business record. Republicans in other states or at the national level have often found such candidates to be electoral failures or totally unreliable in pursuing our party’s principles in office: Herman Cain, Mike Bloomberg, Carl Paladino, Linda McMahon, Jack Ryan, Pete Coors, Pete Dawkins. (Ron Johnson and Rick Scott being rare exceptions, and Scott only won after a searing campaign against his business record). An understanding of private business is a valuable thing for public officials, but it’s no substitute for experience pursuing good public policies; Jon Corzine was a success in business before he ran New Jersey into the ground, and the most successful businessman ever to be president was Herbert Hoover. It’s entirely valid for Republicans to ask whether we are buying ourselves a similar set of headaches with Romney.

Fuuuuuudge

The other point I would make about integrity is that it goes close to the core of why a Romney nomination worries me so much: because we would all have to make so many compromises to defend him that at the end of the day we may not even recognize ourselves. Romney has, in a career in public office of just four years (plus about 8 years’ worth of campaigning), changed his position on just about every major issue you can think of, and his signature accomplishment in office was to be wrong on the largest policy issue of this campaign. Yes, Obama is bad, and Romney can be defended on the grounds that he can’t possibly be worse. Yes, Romney is personally a good man, a success in business, faith and family. But aside from his business biography, his primary campaign has been built entirely on arguments and strategies – about touting his own electability and dividing, coopting or delegitimizing other Republicans – none of which will be of any use in the general election. What, then, will we as politically active Republicans say about him? I was not a huge fan of John McCain’s record, but I was comfortable making honest points about the things McCain had been consistent on over the years – national security, free trade, nuclear power, public integrity, pork-barrel spending. There were spots of solid ground on which to plant ourselves with McCain, and he had a history of digging himself in on those and fighting for things he believed in. But Mitt Romney’s record is just one endless sheet of thin ice as far as the eye can see – there’s no way to have any kind of confidence that we can tell people he stands for something today without being made fools of tomorrow. We who have laughed along with Jim Geraghty’s prescient point that every Obama promise comes with an expiration date will be the ones laughed at, and worse yet we will know the critics are right. Every time I try to talk myself into thinking we can live with him, I run into this problem. It’s one that particularly bedeviled Republicans during the Nixon years – many partisan Republicans loved Nixon because he made the right enemies and fought them without cease or mercy, but the man’s actual policies compromised so many of our principles that the party was crippled in the process even before Watergate. We can stand for Romney, but we’ll find soon enough that that’s all we stand for.

The problem is not entirely without its solutions; one of those is that the only real mechanism conservatives would have for keeping Romney honest is to pour efforts into getting more conservatives elected in the House and Senate, and in particular targeting primary challenges at people who have supported Romney. But that’s a desperate measure, and it still doesn’t answer the question of how we make the affirmative case for Romney without losing our integrity. Which is precisely why we need a hard look now at what we’re getting in return.

COMMENTS

  • dpmapper

    We shouldn’t excuse Perry and Gingrich from making unprincipled attacks. (What’s worse, that they think it’s unconscionable to have layoffs to try and make a company more profitable, or that they don’t but are attacking it anyway?) But, at the same time, we should think about electability and how each candidate might be attacked from the left. Two different things.

    • score333

      Well now.

      ROMNEY AND RON PAUL the new leaders of the Republican Party.
      Our brave Conservative Commentators, with the sole eception of Eric,
      have done a great service this year.

      Render unto Ceasar.

      • nancysabet

        NH Report , today?s primary
        I drove to Manchester NH today from MA to help out Gov. Perry?s campaign. As I was driving through the city I saw a few designated areas where candidates had yard signs on the ground, basically near a HYW exit or entrance. Many of them from Romney camp. I stopped in these spots and put as many Perry signs as I could. In one spot, as I was walking and putting signs on the frozen ground, a camera man from a French TV followed me through and made series of shots and later their woman reporter interviewed me. I know French a little and I tried it to answer some of the questions. The one question that she pressed me on was what I think about the power of media and a single state play in influencing the result of the election. I spoke about how media have been unfair to Perry; I talked about his record and why I am supporting him. They seemed to be agreeing with me. From there I went straight to the HQ. I got a few more signs and headed towards a very busy polling place (precinct 1). There were probably over 100 media people, cameramen, news reporters (including CNN, MSNBC, FOX) standing around the polling place and less than 70/80 supporters of Ron Paul, Romney. I was the only one there from Perry camp. I was really mad that the HQ has not sent any one there; later they told me that they had a couple people there early on. But anyway, I stayed there for 3 hours and I got several interviews and many photos were taken from my Perry sign. I was interviewed by one of the reporters of MSNBC. The most interesting interview was by a TV crew from TX. They were so happy to see me and they said they were looking for someone from the camp and they could not find one. We had a very interesting talk and they loved my passionate support of the governor and the fact I am speaking the truth about their governor. They told me that they loved the way I talked about Perry. Later I saw Bret Baier, Fox Special Report, I went to him and said hello, he was very approachable. I said I have a complain, he looked at my sign and said well, I see. He knew what I am complaining about right away, he said yes I understand, but Perry is getting a lot of exposure in S.C. and he will be in their Monday debate, and he said he will give him a reasonable amount of time, unlike NBC and ABC debate. Then he thanked me for watching. I am telling you people. looks like your complains and criticism of FOX not giving exposure to Perry is working and they don?t want to lose you as their audience, make sure to continue to demand more TV time exposure for Perry, they are listening.

        • pttx333

          c

    • esquip17

      This is pathetic! People supposedly conservative attacking Romney for being a capitalists. You Perry people are just a bunch of partisan statists. You have the nerve to attack Romney as lacking core values? Erickson and Red State has lost all credibility with me. Have fun with your symbolic issue litmus tests.

      • noveldog9

        You are absolutely right esquip17. Some of these folks actually claim to be Christian, yet they joined right in and used Romney’s, “I like to fire them,” quote. Only thing is they conveniently forgot to include why he liked to fire them. This is the same thing as out right lying. If they are willing to lie about this what else will they, or have they lied to us about ?

        Romney’s record is good as far as I can see. It is certainly far better than most of theirs. Ron Paul did at least did refuse to join them in their lies. He came in second. Maybe the folks there appreciated the fact that he would not lie? I cannot support Ron because we do not agree on some of his major proposals, but he has got class…..something grossly lacking in the rest of the field!

    • dennis1111

      It is not the laying off or letting go that concerns such as Newt. It is the matter of no real effort to rescue the company and continue production. Production is the ethical justification of laissez faire.
      Production means wages and purchasing power and a public good.

      Vulture Capitalism doesn’t seek production, it seeks profits. Profits proceeding from production cannot be offensive to ideas of proper conduct. The question is: Did Bain seek to create or to feed off the sick and dying? Real jobs are lost by liquidation. Restructuring might be a better solution across the board; but Vulture Capitalism
      is more profitable in the short run and a lot less bother.

      Do we want a President with a VC mentality?

      • JSobieski

        I deal with VCs on a fairly frequent basis–several of my clients are VC funded.

        Bain is a for profit company that sought to maximize shareholder profits in the same way that you try to maximize your profits with your investments.

        Do you focus your 401k stocks on job creation, or profits?

        If you say profits, how are you different than Bain?

        What if some third party decides that your house would do more public good as a homeless shelter or an orphanage than it would serve as an investment for you?

        Profit seeking is not per se unethical.
        If you have evidence of something unethical occurring, you should share that evidence.

        Some companies did do well under Bain, so it is hard to argue that Bain was predisposed to tank companies. A successful growth story is always more profitable than a bankrupted carcass, so why do you presume Bain didn’t care about saving companies?

  • http://www.planettron.com NickDeringer

    Newt “I got booted out of congress by my own party” Gingrich.

    Rick Santorum a failed 2 term Pensylvania Senator who lost by 18 points. How does he win PA in the general?

    Jon Huntsman?

    Ron Paul?? Only if you think Hitler was a poor misunderstood guy.

    Embrace Newt the guy who was in favor of mandates while taking 37 million from the health care industry?

    • nancysabet

      New version
      HIS BOOTS ARE MADE FOR WALKING – Rebecca Winterowd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC39JNJGgwA&fmt=18

      Have you ever seen this kind of enthusiasm and inspiration elicited by any other candidate but Perry?

    • dennis1111

      Newt got booted for fighting to keep balancing the budget. I wrote a 20-30 line poem on it at the time, called “the too soon tune”. It is easy to mis-construe the facts while bolstering our own viewpoint. Playing the attack dog is usually a sign of a weak position. You can see that in Newt’s switch. He was seriously weakened while gaining with a positive and correct platform, he then switched to punishing Mitt. That is a mistake and he will not likely improve until he stops.
      As a nation equal under the law, we should appreciate opinions which say how our representatives stand on issues and goals.
      Newt was right, the people want positive campaigns. Negative campaigns even when correct, are to be shunned. When less than accurate, they serve us less well. I send money to the Heritage Foundation because the are constructive.

  • OCBill

    I don’t know all the details about Bain, but I do know that they would pay themselves big bonuses before taking a company into bankruptcy. Yes, it’s legal. Yes, I guess we’re supposed to think that makes Romney and others like him the capitalist equivalent of Mother Theresa. But how is that different than running up huge tabs on your credit cards just before declaring personal bankruptcy? Isn’t there an aspect to that which requires some pretty subtle explanation? Won’t Bain’s modus operandi require some careful explaining to an electorate where real unemployment is over ten percent, and a lot of other poeple’s jobs are teetering on the brink? Gordon Gecko and Danny DeVito’s character in “Other People’s Money” may be great fictional capitalists, but I’m not sure they would make great candidates for President, especially in this economy.

    • dpmapper

      They buy the company, so it’s their own money that they’re paying themselves with. “Taking the company into bankruptcy” is not the same thing as maxing out credit cards; they aren’t purposefully ruining the company. The company was already in trouble before they bought and they are using the bankruptcy code to give the company a chance to restructure its debts and obligations. Companies emerge from bankruptcy all the time.

      Here’s a fuller description of how it works:
      http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/287565/romney-derangement-syndrome-avik-roy?pg=2

      Now, you’re right that we should think about what this means for electability. But it’s a totally legit line of work and attacking on it either proves ignorance or dishonesty.

      • OCBill

        In a leveraged buyout, I’m pretty sure all that money wasn’t Bain’s to begin with. It’s been a while since I had my Finance class, but it seems like Leverage meant debt. When debts are written down, someone’s not getting paid back in full.

        Except for the people at Bain who got all their investment back and then some. Legal, but it’s not a great visual. Especially with the picture of Romney and his cohorts grinning with pockets stuffed with money. Compare and contrast that picture with a video of a mom and dad telling their kids their won’t be any Christmas this year. The commercials write themselves.

      • OCBill

        In a leveraged buyout, I’m pretty sure all that money wasn’t Bain’s to begin with. It’s been a while since I had my Finance class, but it seems like Leverage meant debt. When debts are written down, someone’s not getting paid back in full.

        Except for the people at Bain who got all their investment back and then some. Legal, but it’s not a great visual. Especially with the picture of Romney and his cohorts grinning with pockets stuffed with money. Compare and contrast that picture with a video of a mom and dad telling their kids their won’t be any Christmas this year. The commercials write themselves.

      • porkandcheese

        The healthy business they bought (more attractive to investors) was responsible for repaying loans taken out at their new owners’ behest. That’s why it’s called a leveraged buyout, as OCBill pointed out. This is why the tax code should be reformed! These vulture capitalists don’t care about the lives that are destroyed in their pursuit of the almighty dollar.

        $5 million invested in AmPad. $100 million pulled in dividends. 385 jobs cut. $392 million in debt held by 1999. Filed for bankruptcy in 2000. Could someone please explain how Mitt Romney can now take credit for creating Staples?!!

    • antisesquipedalion

      before the S.C. campaign starts in earnest, he needs to get up on the stage, and explain to “Joe the Plumber”, how it is that Joe losing his job, house , and most of his pension, while Mitt walks away with 180 million dollars, is not unfair.
      there’s a reason the Dems have been touting Romney. they have this Bain stuff and more waiting.
      romney will not be able to defend this kind of activity. fortunately, this is coming out when something can be done about it

      • nancysabet

        and go home..no one likes Romney

  • goodgovernance

    It’s a little strange to me that some of us who champion free market capitalism (and I am one) can turn on a dime and argue against the free market of ideas, which works via the same general energizing principle – competition.

    Some of Romney’s supporters are arguing the political debate should NOT be free to include any criticism of Romney’s career at Bain because such criticism might somehow help Obama, as well as be a criticism of capitalism, period. This argument undercuts the idea Romney is the “most electable” Republican candidate, but consistency was never the Romney camp’s strong suit, anyway.

    We need to be able to discuss Romney’s record at Bain now. Romney’s made it the lynchpin of his entire campaign, and only offered the gauziest, most simplistic argument for why it would make him better able to spur economic growth than Obama. That argument will be examined in microscopic detail and torn to shreds by the Chicago machine in the general, so for the GOP to turn a blind eye to the subject now is ludicrous.

    If Romney really is the most electable candidate, let him prove it. If the criticisms of Bain are unjustified, Leftist nonsense, let him prove it. Let’s stop with the whining about process. If the facts are on Romney’s side, he needs to get them out there.

    • bogeyman

      fire people? How do Gingrich, Perry and Huntsman plan on reducing the size of gevernment and cutting the budget if they can’t fire people? Perry plans on eliminating three whole cabinet level agencies and perhaps hundreds of thousands of government jobs. How exactly does he plan on doing this without handing out pink slips?

      • davesinsanantonio

        fire the right people in the right way for the right reasons and be able to sell that to the American public. We also need a president who can hire the right people in the right way for the right reasons and be able to sell that to the American public as well.
        All of that begins with basic principles of constitutionality and morality, with a good deal of wisdom thrown in.
        So, we need to start with a moral, constitutionally conservative person who has wisdom, some humility, and some salesmanship.
        Each of us must decide who we think fits the bill. Then, regardless of the nominee, work to get all those candidates up and down the ballot elected.
        The problem is when we are not convinced that the nominee actually has morality, wisdom, or conservative principles. And, of we think that the nominee is also an arrogant jerk, then the amount of effort we are willing to expend is minimal.

        • davesinsanantonio

          Why are we arguing over Mittens work at Bain Capital when we should be discussing his record as governor???
          He is not a conservative. What he did as governor was not really all that effective, and his popularity dropped so far that he didn’t even run for reelection.
          I know that Obummer and his lapdog media will attack Mittens on both his records.
          Why would we want to nominate the guy they are salivating at????

      • circlegranch

        Do your homework and see how many govt jobs were created on Obama’s watch. Layers upon layers of new jobs were put in place to force the private sector to collapse as much as possible and to grow the bulk and extent of govt. These are the jobs all our candidates have talked about.

        Mr. Romney is getting alot of cover from both the Left and Right this morning and he’s getting a huge boost as being a good capitalist. Doesn’t have to be conservative along with it.

        Jim DeMint has essentially endorsed Romney without endorsing him. He’s attacking Gingrich and Perry and saying he likes what he heard in Romney’s victory speech. Romney is in double digits in SC and FL. It is what it is. There is no time for restart’s and do-over’s now.

        MSNBC is saying things like ‘crazy never wins’ and that Perry and Gingrich are crazy. “Gingrich and Perry are driving Rush Limbaugh and Fox News into the arms of Mitt Romney’. Fox was already there a long time ago but what they will do now is try their best to drive Gingrich and Perry out of the race and see to it they are publicly disgraced in the meantime.

      • oldlady

        and thus had to fire employees they would NOT be doing so to put money into their own pockets like Romney did. They would be doing so to try to save the money of taxpayers, both current and future! There is a big difference in firing people for one’s own gain and doing so to try to save the country!

  • miconservative

    In 2006 the voters of Michigan were facing a collapsing economy and the worst Governor in Michigan history in Jennifer Granholm, as well as being the female version of Barack Obama. Dick DeVos is the son of Richard DeVos, one of the founders of Amway, and a former CEO of the company. Granholm went on a viscious attack of Amway and outsourcing to China and DeVos got crushed by 16 points even though he spent $50 million and ran a pretty good technical campagin, except for the fact that he never answered the China question and other aspects of his business career. And all of this was before the Wall Street bailouts, which Romney supported, which has made voters even more suspicious of Wall Street wheelers and dealers when they try to become political leaders. DeVos was unopposed in the primary so there was no examination of his business record before Granholm got her hands on him and led to a disaster in the general costing us not only our chance at ousting Granholm but also our majority in the State House and nearly our majority in the State Senate. This aspect of Romney’s resume must be reviewed critically in the primary phase because we will certainly face it in the fall. If it cannot survive a review in the primary that record will be an anchor around our neck in the fall.

    Romney had better be able to defend his record and refute the challenges to his business record. If he can he will be the stronger for it come this fall. If he cannot the Republican Party may well be spared an unmitigated disaster next November.

    • http://www.baseballcrank.com Dan McLaughlin

      Also a good example.

    • bonnman

      I think Romney will face the same challenge. Unfortunately I think he’s all but sealed up the nomination, I know it sounds crazy after only one state has voted but here we are, so I think it will be critical to hear how Romney starts to defend himself on this because it will only intensify in the general. And I guess thats one thing I am concerned about, I haven’t heard a good defense by Romeny or his supporters yet. Just shouting anti-capitalism isn’t going to work here.

    • renl57

      are heavily union states.

      CA is lost to us. It’s never going to vote for a conservative, or even for a center-right candidate, again.

      Michigan is a state where the unions are thankful that the Federal Government bailed out the auto companies rather than see the companies file for bankruptcy and restructure.

      OK, I’m interested: Would Perry or Gingrich have supported bailing out GM rather than letting it go bankrupt? I’ll bet not, in which case the same union members who love Obama for bailing out GM wouldn’t vote for any Republican candidate.

      We can’t win over such voters anyway.

      • conservativeparrothead

        Is that if you look at many of the elections when no Republicans or Democrats are on the ballot, but simply issues through ballot initiatives, in many cases, the Conservative issue wins, but as soon as people are on there and you have a “D” or “R” next to their name, the dynamic changes.

        Legalize Marijuana – Lost
        Gay Marriage – Lost
        Increase Taxes – Lost

        Primaries in CA often have produced the most conservative candidate, which hurts them in statewide general elections.

      • miconservative

        Michigan is not a solid dem state as evidenced by our landslide victories in 2010. Rick Snyder got over 60% of the vote for Governor, we hold 26 of 38 seats in the Senate and 63 of 110 in the House. And Gov. Snyder is a businessman, although not a corporate takeover specialist. And GOP can win union member votes with a pro-growth message, in fact we are the home of the Reagan Democrats. Many of those blue collar guys are pro-life, pro-gun, etc, but we lose them if you cannot explain business support that looks like it screws the little guy in favor of the rich. I am not saying Romney can’t win these people he just going to have to explain what he did.

        • oldlady

          bailouts. And it doesn’t help that this morning Romney himself told Charlie Rose that Obama saving the auto industry was the same thing as when he supposedly ”saved” companies. Rush was hitting on the folly of Romney’s words this morning, but his words are already out of the bag and Romney can’t ”unring the bell” on this. The Dem’s will obviously play this soundbite up big while campaigning against Romney. And the Romneybots talk about Perry’s alleged bloopers. None of which were as devastating as this one!

      • funwithknives

        with boilerplate views. Take into consideration:
        1) all GM and Chryco Bond holders screwed by Barry’s Big Experiment, and stockholder retirees
        2) all the Delphi white collar retirees who were welched on, pension wise, while union members got ‘real special’ treatment.
        3) all the friends , relatives and neighbors of the above, while recognizing that UAW membership is not going up appreciably.
        4) believe it or not, there are right to work believers in this state and a bill is being worked on ,as you read this .Snyder signing it is another question.
        Once you get away from the tri-counties (Wayne, Oakland, Macomb) where the majority of the plants are, it’s a whole new ball game

  • Samsara

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204331304577140850713493694.html

    Bain did not improve anything, They were out to make money and that is what they did. Now Romney wants to spin this and say “I was a responsable businessman, doing good for others and profiting by it”, like he was a small business man or somthing. That is bull. He was a corperate raider, plain and simple.

    • Risky

      http://coffeeandmarkets.com/2012/01/09/mitt-romney-corporate-raider-or-capitalist-hero/

      for a better analysis

    • Marcus_Traianus

      Did you actually read the article? Perhaps you skipped over the objections which Romney’s Camp and others raised to it? Frankly, I felt is was poor quality work for someone like the WSJ. It was evident they rushed to get it out and thus it was half completed.

      In some cases WSJ looked at companies when they were beyond Bain’s involvement. There were also numerous objections to the framework they placed around. The WSJ also missed a big part of the perspective, which is the state of many industries in which Bain made investments. Hint. Many of those industries were not in otherwise good shape or in the midst of losing significant jobs and manufacturing to China. Any idea what role the Unions played in some of that?

      Business is a crap shoot. Some you win, some you lose. But you don’t have a chance unless you play the game.

      You can either dwell on Romney’s business experience at this late point in the game or you can put it in appropriate perspective and compare it to this existing President who has destroyed our economy, used taxpayer money to fund the solar industry, stuck a new entitlement down our throat against the peoples will and laughed on extravagant vacations while a record number of people remain unemployed or dropped out of the job market altogether.

      • Samsara

        Yes Marcus, I read the article.
        No Marcus, I don’t think Mitt Romney’s past career as a corporate raider makes Obama a better choice for president.
        No Marcus, I will not dwell on Romney’s past.
        No Bull :)

  • miconservative

    John Corzine made a lot of money and was pretty successful in some aspects of business and then screwed over countless investors. Can we question his record? Was he engaged in capitalism? We as conservatives like capitalism and honor those who work hard and become successful. We also abhor those who are bailed out or abuse the system to enrich themselves at the expense of others. When a candidate makes his career in the private sector the centerpiece of his campaign we have a responsibility to give that record a very careful and critical review because Obama and the Dems will crawl up his rear end for the most intensive protocological examine ever. If Romney is so proud of his record he should welcome this exam and be prepared to fire back with both barrells instead of being defensive about it.

    • languedoctor

      Romney has an opportunity to gain a lot of respect if he handles this well. Someone has to explain what role venture capital plays in an open economy. I’m not sure Romney would be my choice to make that case, given his difficulties connecting with people, but he has an opportunity.

      I haven’t seen the Newt PAC spot, and I don’t plan to waste half an hour on it. I hope it addresses genuine malfeasance (as you describe), instead of going for cheap scores. Again, I have my doubts. I’ve defended Newt on other websites, but he’s on the verge of p***ing me off. I have no doubt that he’ll put his own interests over his party’s.

    • jgge

      stupid reflex about questioning anyone business record they shout “anti-capitalist”. I am more capitalist than anyone else but I am also a realist and in the world of politics Romney Bain Capital record is going to destroy him in the general elections even if he survives the primaries. As someone said in another article posted here on RS, “Capitalism can defeat Obama but Bain Capital cannot”.

  • lizzie

    and if you knew what Private Equity Leveraged Buyouts did to many fine, but not “profitable enough” companies 1978-2000,
    no one would think Romney-Bain was any different from KKR.

    besides, if Romney had any true moral and ethical concerns, why did he stay silent all these years instead of continuing to collect profits from Bain to this very day. You know that is why he refuses to release his tax returns.

    Warren Buffet buys companies, fixes them, and holds them for longterm profit. THAT is Free Market Capitalism with ethics, altho I have no idea why he supports Obama.

    If you ever lived thru a PE LBO, you would know it is all a myth that they do it ‘save struggling companies’.

    Read “Barbarians at the Gate”. I was there at RJR Nabisco 1986-1996.
    KKR paid too much, and the leveraged debt could NEVER be repaid.

    America is doomed.- no one has the spine to tell the truth except Newt?

    • porkandcheese

      The companies he buys are family businesses that cannot be sustained after the founder passes away. His support for Democrats is high-profile lobbying.

    • unitedwestood

      Look up how much he stands to make if the pipline does NOT come in…. BNSF. Also look up he stands to make if the tax rates are raised because rich people go to him to insure their wealth. Buffet is in it for Buffet.

  • ethos

    This will turn into a trial of Bain and the morality of investment firms in general. Defeating Romney on this point will be a win/win for both Democrats and their welfare state agenda.

    As to Romney’s record as governor, there was a reason a Republican was elected in Massachusetts. The state was getting crushed by the post 9-11 recession. With the cooperation of a veto-proof Democratic legislature he balanced the budget each of his 4 years in office and instituted pro-growth policies that helped create an environment for economic prosperity.

    I don’t see anything in there that is unbearable. Sure a mandated state wide heath care program is unsightly, but really the line that it was ‘done at the state level’ still fits with a decentralized federal government narrative.

    • porkandcheese

      Romney ended a 16-year run of Republican governors, because he decided to run for president instead of challenge Deval Patrick. His approval ratings were in the 30′s when he left office. He left a bunch of appointments for his very liberal successor to fill along with a demolished GOP. Romneycare was a proven job killer and budget buster, and his credit for balancing budgets was by his own admission when petitioning the S&P to raise MA’s credit rating by raising taxes.

      • jgge

        in 2006.

      • ethos

        He spent a lot of time in 2006 nationally, which hurt the republican party locally. Deval Patrick is responsible for the republican run ending however, any contributions from Romney are ultimately causal.

        • porkandcheese

          Romney was the last of several increasingly moderate Republican governors, and he didn’t care what happened to the local GOP when he ran for president. He barely cared about being governor while he was in office. His career has been one of resume padding and leapfrogging to what he considers his birthright… the highest office in the land, or a presidential library to him.

  • yahoo

    You want to see what capitalism would look like with no regulation?

    Go to China. Visit a factory. 90 hour work weeks. No health benefits. Horrible dorm living conditions.

    But damn, they sure are good at making billions and ruling the world.

    There’s a reason that Bain resonates. There is a feeling that greed and unfettered capitalism is a problem. Wall Street ran schemes with pension funds, destroyed untold billions.

    Yes, we’ve gone too far and there are far too many regulations and taxes can be a burden on business, but there’s a need for balance… and Republicans better wake up about the mood in this country.

    • jakeofalltrades

      My brain just fell out.

      • Repair_Man_Jack

        However, it reminds me of another example of a “well-regulated” Communist society. Read Ecocide in The USSR if you want to see what industry is like in the well-regulated state.

    • renl57

      “You want to see what capitalism would look like with no regulation?

      Go to China.”

      No.
      Go to Singapore.

      • aesthete

        nt

    • aesthete

      A country which describes its system as being “socialism with Chinese characteristics” (and this is *after* it recovered from being a Maoist hellhole) is suddenly the go-to example for untrammeled capitalism?

      I like that you one-up that by referring to the failures of a heavily-regulated sector of our economy (financial sector) — one whose decisions were heavily influenced by and based on poor monetary policy from the Fed, as well as bad regulation — as another example of untrammeled capitalism.

      Questions: if greed is the problem in the financial sector, then why don’t most people see it as a problem in the technology and computing sectors, whose businesses tend to have much higher profit margins than the usual culprits (banks and oil corps)? Why do sectors with much less regulation and government interference than banking seem to produce things that people want and act more responsibly, despite greed being extant throughout our economy?

      • JSobieski

        Glad my sense of humoris still intact

        • treeofliberty

          I’ve worked in China.
          I’ve lived in China.
          I’ve dealt with the Chinese bureaucracy.

          Mr. Yahoo, you know jack about China if you think it’s an “unregulated capitalist market”

          As for China “ruling the world” put down the crack pipe son.

          As stated above: Singapore and Hong Kong are far closer examples of an unregulated capitalist market than China (!!!!!!)

    • Bill S

      but this is your lucky night.

      You’re either terribly stupid or a Democrat (or maybe it’s “and you’re a Democrat”). In either case….

      Sayonara.

  • progressivelibertarian

    When the news about the gaffe broke, I too was baffled that people (including Huntsman, surprisingly) jumped on it and attacked Romney based on an utter mischaracterization of the quote, when it was just plain obvious that Romney was talking about being able to “fire” an insurance company (and the people who run it) for not delivering services expected. I think Romney has a lot to answer about his Bain capital activities before being handed the nomination on a platter, but pouncing on him on this was silly political theater.

    Through the years, even when I disagreed with what Newt had to say, I’ve always found that he strives to maintain some level of integrity and intellectual consistency. Neither Romney nor Obama have sufficient degree of integrity, but Obama, unlike Romney, is smooth at his political game play.

    We need a President who likes the idea of telling it like it is (or as he or she sees it, makes case for it and is open to counter arguments and to being proven wrong), and, without a doubt, Newt is far superior in this aspect to both Romney and Obama.

    • thosjefferson

      Newt tells it like it is (mainly to soften the tremendous blowback to his other anti-capitalists comments and ads), while Perry makes it a ringtone and Huntsman adopts it as his theme. What does that say about Perry and Huntsman?

      How proud of Perry is Erick Erickson now?

      • texastaxpayer

        Romney is over if the republicans have any brains….

      • dpmapper

        One throwaway comment tweaking Mitt’s “like to be able to fire” line is about it. Today I’ve seen him attacking on electability, not on Bain directly.

    • porkandcheese

      He missed two big opportunities early on. It does little good after the fact in ads.

      Newt’s integrity isn’t worth spit. Anyone who claims they were paid millions by Fannie and Freddie as a historian when they couldn’t get hired by a state college is another lying lobbyist like our “social conservative” Santorum. Those two are K Street hucksters and they are making fools of the Republican base.

  • thosjefferson

    Some RedStaters oppose Romney because of the mandate in Romneycare, yet when he points out the free enterprise element (freeing up people to buy their own health care plans instead of being forced to take whatever their employer offers), these same people jump all over him for that!

    At least Newt recognized it was taken out of context. Too bad he doesn’t also admit his other anti-capitalist attacks were premised on out-of-context allegations.

    McLaughlin repeats another big mistake. He insists “There?s no serious argument that Romney?s record of supporting free enterprise and job growth in his single term as Massachusetts governor is better than the records of Perry, Gingrich, Santorum and Huntsman.”

    However, Gingrich and Santorum have never been governors so we have no idea how effective they’d be in executive positions. The last time we elected such an inexperienced “executive” was 4 years ago.

    Both Perry and Huntsman claim credit for creating jobs, but in both states, their unemployment rates increased. What’s so great about “creating jobs” when the result is still worse? Perry took his state’s unemployment rate from 4.2% to 8.4%. Huntsman went from 4.5% to 7.4%. But Romney went from 5.6% to 4.6%.

    • texastaxpayer

      If you were in anyway honest you would include that little piece of information. You would also note that Texas has created a 1,000,000 + net new jobs.

      Romney ranked 47th out of 50 during a growth period for the US economy.
      Perry ranks #1 during a period described by everyone with any credibility as the worst economy since the great depression.

      Romney had a 34% approval rating at the end of a single term. His only real experience leading a government. Romney couldn’t even run for reelection his numbers where so low.
      Perry has been reelected three times. Perry also inherited a divided government from GWB. The democrats had a majority in the states house and just a couple senators less than republicans in the senate. Perry has managed through success to deliver conservative majorities in both houses.
      Any metric you compare Perry is better.

      • http://www.baseballcrank.com Dan McLaughlin

        Perry was also GOV during the 2000-02 period and the 2007-12 period, neither of which was as good times in the national economy as 2003-06. He has a proven record of encouraging job creation *during recessions*

        • satchman3

          He’s spoken at length about the record for jobs creation in Texas and not been shy to claim credit. However I haven’t heard Perry say what it was that he actually did?

          • texastaxpayer

            Low tax rates – Perry has lowered rates, kept the state from instituting an income tax and keeps our business rates low and competitive.

            Reduced regulations- Perry and team have cut miles of red tape making Texas one of the easiest states to start and grow a business. Our environmental regulations are designed to promote job creation not hinder it.

            Reformed the legal environment – Perry passed loser pays tort reform and medical malpractice tort reform. To protect businesses and individuals from frivolous lawsuits.

            Balanced Budgets – though with the population explosion it has been hard to do Perry has kept spending under control allowing Texas to build up a rainy day fund in the billions. Our current budget cycle is on track to produce a 1.6 billion dollar surplus.

            Attract New Business- Perry and the legislature set aside funds to attract new businesses into Texas. Apple and caterpillar are two of our recent transplants to Texas.

            Perry isn’t perfect certainly but he is batting 1000 on the big decisions.

          • renl57

            TX can ride through recessions because the demand for oil is relatively inelastic.

            What would Perry have done if he were governor of MA, a state with high-tech and manufacturing but no oil or gas?

          • texastaxpayer

            Oil and Gas represents between 17 to 20% of the Texas GDP.
            Our largest industry segment???dun da dun…… High tech and increasingly manufacturing.

            Wow sucks to be a Mittbot huh? He gets his a$$ kicked at everything…

          • unitedwestood

            Tort reform is one. Less regulations, and no state income tax. I”m sure there is more…. but that at least gets it all started. He’s told it several times in the debates.

      • dpmapper

        Apples and oranges.

    • tercel

      Perry and Huntsman were governors during recessions. Romney was governor during a recovery yet his state did not gain as much as the general economy. Perry and Huntsman’s economies lost less of a percentage of jobs than the overall economy.

  • texastaxpayer

    Look as a capitalist personally I am not suggesting that we call in the bureaucracies and pass thousands of pages of regulations to keep evil folks from making a quick buck looting struggling companies. Let’s face it the strong survive the weak make up the lunch special. However as the author points out running a candidate that can be attacked with a credible argument that after draining tens of millions of dollars out of several companies he then bankrupted them. Effectively dumping their labor force on the backs of tax payers for unemployment, food stamps and health benefits. While he and his fat cat buddies whistled off into the sunset with the money. Many argue this isn’t a fair attack, perhaps not. But consider the mood of the country and the prevalent anger toward wall street and Washington. Is this really the time to open ourselves up to this type of debate? I think we should move past Romney quickly and not give Obama the one thing he is praying for. An issue besides his record to campaign on. A Romney nomination means 2012 is about his failure as governor, his background with Bain and his less than stellar record of consistency. Can we please not do this….

  • Ann_W

    About 1/2 of small businesses fail within four years. Only 1/3 of small businesses ever make a profit. Bain was taking a large risk on each co. it put it’s money into. Their success rate for that type of business seems to be better than the success of small businesses in general (and that’s all of them, not just the troubled ones. (Most buyout firms don’t focus on small businesses so comparisons to other buyout firms are inaccurate.) If they bought the co. and it still ended up failing (about 20% of them did) they tried to get their money back out of them.

    I’d be happy if all companies could be saved. We could all be happily working as telephone operators, buggy whip makers, Border bookstore cashiers, or Blockbuster managers. But in this capitalist company we aren’t forced to employ the people who aren’t necessary anymore, and we have the highest standard of living in the world because of it. I’m sorry for the pain of people who got fired, but a country where people couldn’t be fired would be like the USSR or Cuba, the gov’t would decide which jobs survive and I don’t think any of us would chose that country over this one.

    In MA, at the Olympics, at Bain the parts of the job that were Mitt’s to control were done well. The MA budgets were balanced even though he didn’t have the power (legislative) to decrease spending or not give MA the health care that their was a drumbeat for.

    There are parts of Romney’s record that still give me pause; but of all times in history, I would think that someone who is capable and can reduce things that aren’t working would be valuable.

    • bonnman

      But Romney and Bain still made millions in the deal. Thats the question voters will be asking themselves. Just saying ‘well thats capitalism’ isn’t going to cut it.

      • Ann_W

        There is a reason that the stock price was so low that it could be bought up. Of the companies with depressed stock prices that Bain bought, their management guidance was able to save 80% of them. For that type of business that is a very good record. For some of the co.’s they made money, for some they were able to get their initial money back, and for some they lost it all. Mitt’s job at Bain was to make money for Bain’s investor’s and he did that. I’m sorry those people lost their jobs, but the % of the companies that would have failed without Bain helping them to restructure would have been higher.

        • jgge

          with the majority of voters. Bain Capital would utterly destroy Romney in the general elections.

        • bonnman

          Yes, Romney’s job was to make money for himself and Bain, it wasn’t to create jobs and in fact he was able to even make money while laying off workers. How is it that Romney and Bain are rewarded with millions of dollars for failure? While the steel worker who has worked for 30 years is laid off with nothing? This is the moral and ethical question voters are asking themselves and that Romney doesn’t have a good explanation for.

          • JSobieski

            Companies like Bain make money because the owners of the acquired entities wanted out, and were willing to provide enough cash to entice the owner to sell.

            Is an owner a slave of his employees? to the business?

            Sometimes an entity is worth more in pieces than it it as a whole.

            Sometimes an old house is purchased only to be razed to the ground to create an empty lot for a new house.

            The ultimate source of employment is growth. The ultimate catalyst for growth is the efficient use of capital. If a business is worth less than the sum of its parts over an extended period of time—that business is an inefficient use of capital.

            A lot of people lost their shirts when the Model broadband.

            In economics, we are all part of a system—and we are but pieces of that system. It is a freedom enhancing system—but it can be quite unpleasant when in creative destruction mode.

          • miconservative

            But the employee has no responsibility to vote for the owner for President either. The vote belongs to the individual and my bet is he will be damned to give it to the guy who fired him or a guy who looks, acts and talks like the guy who fired him. That is the challenge in making the transition from hard core capitalist to President of the United States. Why do you think that seemingly no one has ever made the transition?

          • JSobieski

            We either embrace reason or give into populism.

            I don’t deny the reality of what you say, but we either defend capitalism or capitalism goes undefended.

            The success of Bain is found in the owners that it liberated, not so much the jobs it created (with a few exceptions)

          • bonnman

            Arguing that Romney and Bain’s preferred business methods must be defended simply because its within the scope of our capitalist system doesn’t make much sense. For example, if our country is in desperate need of jobs would you prefer a company that makes a large profit by offshoring jobs or a less profitable company that creates jobs here at home? Maybe “Made in the USA” is just a meaningless slogan but I factor it in to my decisions, it doesn’t mean I’m attacking capitalism because I want to support a less profitable company, it means I’m supporting a company that I feel is doing what’s right for our Country.

            I understand you want to support the business owners but there are far many more workers out there than business owners and at the end of the day the guy with the most votes wins.

          • aesthete

            If you’re not willing to acknowledge that capitalism requires an at least somewhat free market in labor (one where people can be fired and hired), then you might as well start running up copies of the Daily Worker and hoisting the Red Flag in your backyard, because that’s the only way to make sure that no one ever gets fired, ever. So, if it’s not wrong to fire people to make a company solvent, then what’s wrong with another company stepping in and making sure that this process gets taken care of in the best way possible? As a business owner, you wouldn’t want to fire and restructure people, and have it not work, would you? I’d love for someone to explain why this is a bad thing, without relying on the CRIPPLED MAN LOSES HIS JOB AND COMMITS SUICIDE BECAUSE OF BAIN CAPITAL sensationalism that characterizes leftist attacks on the necessary business practice commonly known as “firing people”.

            I’m not going to get into a pointless

          • JSobieski

            computers, and airplanes.

            Global trade hurts specific groups of people in specific instances, but overall global trade helps everyone get higher quality goods/services and lower prices.

            What companies do you invest in? What companies does your pension invest in?

            Do you want them to go for the best possible return, or do you want to invest in zombie companies that never make money but hire a lot of people?

            Charity is charity and investment is investment. Make money on your investments so you can give to charity. Make investment decisions based on charity and you will be the one looking for a handout.

          • bonnman

            You’re grouping American workers with inanimate objects like computers and airplanes, they are not that same things. Romney will sure to win votes by telling people they are just commodities to him.

            And its a false choice between a “zombie company” or a company with the “best possible return”, its not a black and white choice. You can have a modestly profitable company that provides jobs, there’s nothing wrong with that and they do exist, its just something Romney and Bain were not interested in.

          • JSobieski

            I could take you to nearby Ford plants that produced their own steel, made paint, etc. everything for the manufacture of an automobile.

            Technology allows for more efficient sourcing.

            Economics should not be confused with spirituality. Human beings have dimensions that are priceless, precious, and eternal.

            However, in the economic sphere it is a defined contribution world. Everybody thinks they deserve “more” but don’t seem to want to produce it or be on the giving side.

            Jobs are an secondary result of a profitable company but jobs are not the primary goal.

            You likely have some kind of pension plan, 401k, investments, etc.

            Do you receive job reports from your investments?

            Or is it just other people who need to factor in jobs while you focus solely on rate of return.

            Creative destruction is real. 99% of the world’s population worked on feeding itself. If you want to go back to that, you should stop blogging on RS and start some really inefficient farming.

          • bonnman

            with your perspective. Labor, while a commodity, is not a simple commodity distilled to just efficiency or cost, it is one which comes bundled with, as you say, the priceless, precious, and eternal dimensions of human beings. That’s why when viewed in dispassionate and economic terms most people who work for a living won’t empathize with you.

          • jakeofalltrades
          • JSobieski

            Since human beings are tied to priceless, previous, and eternal dimensions . . .

            the minimum wage needs to be higher
            healthcare should be free
            daycare should be provided by the government
            we should raise tariffs on foreign goods

            Economic policies should be defined by economic attributes. Non-economic policies should be defined by non-economic attributes.

            Blur the two together and you end up with what they are doing in Venezuela.

            When you purchase medical services from a surgeon, you are paying for what they can provide you—not for their inner beauty as a human being. Otherwise, nobody could afford any kind of healthcare.

            So why treat other professions more highly than doctors?

            Jesus never said pay people more than they are worth.

          • bonnman

            You’re arguing a slippery slope logical fallacy. That is, if X happens then Y and Z might happen and we don’t want Z to happen so therefor don’t do X. Sorry but it makes no logical sense.

            Economic transactions are not entirely devoid of social value or as you say non-economic attributes. As convenient as it is to view economics as existing in a vacuum, it doesn’t. “When you purchase medical services from a surgeon, you are paying for what they can provide you?not for their inner beauty as a human being.” That’s a broad generalization based on your assumptions. I can just as easily say I buy a newspaper from an old man who runs probably one of the last newsstands in the city, not because he provides me the news, I can get that online, but because he always has a funny anecdote about his 40 years selling papers in the city. Which is part of his humorous personality and inner beauty as you say. So you really don’t know why people buy things.

            Economic freedom is a wonderful thing but your choices, like everything else, can be viewed subjectively, is it ethical? is it good for the Nation? is that business practice good for Presidential experience? etc.

          • JSobieski

            Do your pension, 401k, and other investment documentation identify jobs created?

            I suspect that you conduct your own investments on largely a rate of return basis.

          • aesthete

            Somewhere out in the hinterlands of the US, a bright young Nebraskan has developed a manufacturing process which increases the productivity of every employee fourfold at a fraction of the cost of keeping a manufacturing employee on staff for 5 years. Consequently, manufacturing plants reduce their staff by 80%. Technology making life easier for people: what conservative would roll back the clock for the purpose of recreating an employment situation that doesn’t make sense in light of technological developments? One might call such a person a Luddite, and would certainly call into question his or her free-market bonafides.

            Now what if I told you that instead of technology, this is being made possible by employing third-world workers at wages far higher than they’re accustomed to, and which make feeding their families a far less back-breaking proposition? What changes? Absolutely nothing, except that another person in a horribly impoverished country is benefiting, and that said third-world nation is that much closer to escaping grinding poverty the likes of which are not extant in the US. As in the scenario above, people who want to return to an age when everything was “made in the US” are using somewhat confused analysis — worse, they are harming people trapped in gutwrenching poverty while doing so! As you say, people are not commodities: people living in third-world countries do not have the employment choices available to Westerners, and often resort to selling their labor, or the labor of their children, in sick, dangerous, or degrading venues if legitimate employment opportunities are not available. In the absence of the “outsourcing” that people rail against, these opportunities are often unavailable.

          • jakeofalltrades

            I agree with you in principle, but you’re sounding like Marie Antoinette here.

          • JSobieski

            Inefficient manufacturing companies are zombie corporations—-they live off of the anxiety, blood, and life force of their owners.

            Such companies pay lots of money to employees who work 9 to 5, have great benefits, etc. and take the business for granted. In many cases the owners work 24/7 take no vacations, skimp on everything. The employees all assume the owners are rich, but of course, in many instances they are dead wrong. Particularly in lean years.

            Those owners needed to be liberated. There are a lot of UAW guys making 6 figures in good years in this part of town—-they had plenty of opportunities to become owners.

            People need to understand the dichotomy of life: (1) you either take the risks and do what is necessary to be an owner; (2) work your tail off to make yourself useful for the people who do (1); or (3) acknowledge that you are living off of the risks and investments of others and show some appreciation.

            The entitlement mentality is not limited to those on welfare. A lot of the problems in America at the moment are the result of people living with defined benefit expectations in a defined contribution world.

            That attitude is why entitlements are literally crushing us, and why 19 year old kids can start large successful companies while people with 20 years experience can sit unemployed for years.

          • jakeofalltrades

            heh

          • JSobieski

            when Atlas wants to shrug and say “fend for yourselves”

            We do live in a defined contribution world, and people need to change their defined benefit mindsets. What I say is true, and no amount of compassion changes that diagnosis.

          • jakeofalltrades

            and when I don’t, I’m in the process of coming around.

            Thank you for participating here, man; you’re awesome.

          • JSobieski

            Besides, aesthete and acat are the true Jedi Knights.

            Now where is the wine bottle opener . . .

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            Early in my paralegal career (a position I earned through working for it and being promoted to by the attorneys for whom I worked rather than through the typical certification route) and before I had a child, I was often asked why I didn’t go to law school. My answer was that I wasn’t interested in putting in the long hours most attorneys had to work, especially if one was interested in the partnership track. In my 25+ career, I’ve worked for 3 major law firms and in-house for a national chain of department stores. Each place, I worked with wonderful people and have had 4 of the greatest bosses anyone could have. In turn, they’ve had a dedicated employee who was grateful for the opportunity provided by those who took the risk and worked those long hours. For almost half of those years, I was able to work a reduced schedule to accommodate being a mom for a more than decent wage.

            I have always made it a point through the years to thank my bosses not only for any raises or bonuses I received, but also for the job itself because without them, I wouldn’t have had the career I do. Not to say I didn’t work hard and earn my keep, but I chose not to take the risks or work the long hours they did.

            And not only that, but a while back, our state legislature was trying to sneak a bill through to change some state tax laws that would have adversely affected those in the upper brackets. Fortunately, conservatives found out through a local talk show host, exposed the bill and tanked it. Anyway, I made it a point to tell several attorneys and urged them to ask their reps to vote no. I realized that if the attorneys made less money, it most likely would translate into smaller raises and bonuses for the employees.

          • tonotisto

            Mitt wants credit for creating 1,000′s of jobs (most of which came about long after he left Bain).

            But, Bain (Mitt) werer not about creating jobs. They were a LBO company, Short term vs Long term growth.

            BO will nail Romney as being one of the big factors for manufacturig tanking in the US and the reason that no one even “ventures” to invest in long term capitol (manufacturing).

            Companies know that as they grow, a Bain may swope in and dismantle the business.

            That is Perry’s main point about Romney’s pious cliam to have created jobs. Any jobs that were created were an accidental by-product of the LBO going for the big bucks, not Romney’s great vision for employment.

            Don;t get me wrong. What Bain did was not illegal (maybe unethical) and might have done some good.. But, don;t try to run for Pres and not expect people to question your motives.

            IMHO Perry /West

          • Ann_W

            It’s as they are troubled and their stock value is so low, or the owners want out so badly that they are a bargain for Bain. As Sobieski said above– the employees could have banded together and bought it, but they didn’t and the current owners felt that what Bain offered was what it was worth. If it was worth more than that another company would have bought it for more.

            Bain didn’t liquidate companies, they tried to make them work, if they didn’t work, then Bain tried to get their money back. Without Bain these companies would have failed more often than they did with Bain’s guidance.

          • ww2nd95

            Ann, and understand where you’re coming from, I do not agree. Bain was in the business of making a quick buck, nothing else. Sure, they invested in companies that turned out to be successful, such as Staples, but that was not their goal. They were in it for the short term profit, not long term profitability. If the company profited from Bain’s investment and turned out to be a gold mine, great, if not, and the company went bankrupt, with 100s of people being laid off, and Romney still made millions, so be it. That doesn’t look good. And yes, O will hit Romney over the head so many times as the “big, bad 1%er, that just cares about feeding Wall Street, while everyone else can simply.. eat cake”. that Romney will make Gorden Gecko look like a hero.

            I’m not saying that Romney is a bad guy or that he did anything wrong, I’m just pointing out what he has coming to him, and thus far he’s done a terrible job defending his successes at Bain.

    • dajeeps

      They bought what there was to buy with the intent flip, either healthy or “troubled”, and they did what they had to do to flip them and turn a profit at the same time.

      I don’t really see anything wrong with that, and the documentary doesn’t say it’s wrong or that government should do anything about it. It points out and puts a face on the victims, ones that Romney fails to account for when he discusses his record of “job creation” in the private sector. The truth is that he may have created many jobs, but he also “fired” plenty that may not have been fired otherwise.

      If you ask me, Romney opens himself wide open for these kinds of attacks when he exaggerates his record of job creation, taking credit for all the jobs created by Bain, even ones he had nothing to do with, and failing to account for the other side of the proposition. That is what this documentary does – challenges his lack of truth telling.

      • paladin1

        because I completely support Governor Perry and will continue to do so as long as he is in the race. This issue does not move me away from his camp.

        Having said this however, I must implore him to stop the attacks he is mounting on Bain Capital and Romney’s involvement. JSobieski’s postings above are an excellent summation of the less glamorous and messy, but sometimes necessary, results of a free market system. An attack on a major tenet of capitalistic success by our conservative candidate is unwise and completely unnecessary.

        Romney can and should be attacked for his dismal record as a failed liberal Republican governor who devised the predecessor program to Obamacare and who has changed his professed liberal positions to that of almost every conservative doctrine, and then claimed to have been there all along.

        Some in this thread approve of these attacks, saying they are necessary to expose Romney’s lies about job creation because they improperly take credit for some job creation he did not personally have involvement with. This is exactly the point; government cannot “create” jobs in business. Government can however, create the conditions through streamlining regulations, removing barriers, and reducing/removing the need for expense litigation. Governor Perry has done this in Texas through his conservative policies.

        At Bain, Romney did comparatively the same thing through expending personal capital on risks, changing the conditions of the bought out companies and either turning them in profitable entities that would in turn, create more jobs because of the change in conditions Bain wrought, even though Bain did not directly participate in the job creation. Resetting the conditions was enough. Some companies however, were not viable and those were dismantled, profited from if possible, and inevitably, people’s jobs were lost. No one can expect the owners of a business to work at the risk of the loss of their own capital and livelihood out of altruism for the employees of his company. If you take the risks, you call the shots and if you are successful, the processes you set into play will continue to create jobs which you are responsible for indirectly by the new foundation you laid. This is a foundational tenet of a capitalistic system and conservatives cannot afford to adopt any semblance of a populist attitude toward it, no matter what the popular mindset is at the time. Ayn Rand was right and her book, “Atlas Shrugged” is a blueprint for what may be if we do not approach the messy side of capitalism with a clear and objective understanding of its function.

  • trickamsterdam

    I have less problems w/ Romney than other people here, but one of the reasons for that is that I believed in the fact that he was very electable. I’m now starting to doubt that.

    It’s because the “establishment” is protecting him again. It’s like he’s never going to be truly tested. They are trying to shut this Bain discussion down before it begins, either because they are totally in the tank for Romney or totally in the tank for capitalism. (some people will be uncomfortable w/ the latter phrase, but this post is already to long to explain what I mean). The problem is he never gets the vetting that the others got. Then we’re surprised in the general.

    No one should feel it’s wrong to attack Romney on this because “it’s the language of the Left”. Romney and his surrogates were the first to use the language of the Left against Newt.

    Remember when Romney called Newt “zany”? His surrogate John Sununu (who gave us Justice D. Suitor) called him basically “mentally unfit”. And there were other similar attacks. Many, many of them.

    This is classic Leftism since Barry Goldwater (“in your guts you know he’s nuts”- LBJ ). They also tried to say Reagan was crazy. Even McCain was depicted as a crazed Vietnamese War veteran who wanted to bomb Iran because he made a joke.

    So now they want to blame Newt (or whoever) for using attacks against “capitalism”? That would be like N. Korea using a nuke against us, and then complaining we used two against them..

    If the argument is that damaging capitalism hurts all Republicans, but “crazy” attacks only hurt Newt…wrong. The depiction of the most successful R Speaker in our lifetime by other Rs as insane hurts all Rs…because it is a standard D attack.

    Newt was the clear front-runner and people like Romney, Sununu, J. Rubin, G. Will, T. Coburn, “Morning Joe”…and many, many others…all used attacks that would clearly have damaged Newt in the general. Now they’re worried because these attacks might hurt Romney in the general?

    Romney also said Newt “shouldn’t complain about negative ads, because it would be nothing compared to ‘Obama’s Hell’s Kitchen’”. Very true. So now Newt and others will apply the same logic to you and your campaign. w/ “King of Bain”, O ye wise Romney.

    Lastly, if they’re (his surrogates) going to distort Newt’s record (he was a failed Speaker, despite his lifetime 90% acu rating he was never a conservative) then how can he complain that his Bain record is being distorted? Um….he can’t. Although I’m sure Jennifer Rubin will try to do it for him..

    Sorry. It just doesn’t work that way. You don’t play tackle football and then suddenly switch the rules to flag, because you’re winning. Other people want to tackle as well.

    And Obama and the Ds will certainly tackle. Romney must face and not only survive, but triumph over these charges on his Bain record…or we should try to find someone else (he still might be able to beat Pres Obama, because Pres Obama is so, so bad…but we should try to find the best candidate).

    For technical reasons I am not sure if Romney can actually be beaten by another candidate running at this point…

    But it may well be worth the risk of wounding him in the general, so that we can perhaps force a brokered convention. I honestly think a brokered convention is now a realistic goal, and the preferred goal.

    PS – @ D. McLaughlin – The initial diary was an extremely well-written and thoughtful piece.

    • acat

      i.e. no “he couldn’t close the deal, so he bought the convention”.

      I’m not thrilled with a process that could yield a “selected, not elected” candidate … but I could live with it.

      The process would not be ideal, someone’s gonna hate whoever gets the nomination .. however they get it .. but it has some upsides.

      Mew

      • trickamsterdam

        But I think Paul Ryan would be the most logical candidate out of a brokered convention…he’s a legitimate bridge between the Tea Party and the Establishment.

        Even your guy (and my former guy, who I’m thinking looks a lot better lately) Gov Perry, could be someone that could maybe satisfy the various sides.

        But yeah, maybe Romney uses his influence in a brokered convention to just give the VP to someone conservatives like, and then cabinet positions. Well…like I said that’s where we’re going anyway.

        This is the point: Romney must be vetted!

        With no excuses from the “establishment” that the attacks aren’t “conservative” (as if we’re living in Conservative Nation not the United States).

        Since that’s clearly (at this point) not going to happen: I say brokered convention!

  • tercel

    Defend what Romney did. BUT it will never sell to the average American voter.

    This is exactly why we are going to lose if Romney is our candidate. No one is going to vote for the guy that fired you or fired your friends. Creative destruction is perfectly defensible as an economic principle but it is NOT sellable in a political campaign.

    Defend it out of principle but lose the election. Just a fact.

    • Ann_W

      I don’t accept that. If people jumped in with well done ads about “we’re sorry that every job that couldn’t be saved, but people who were telephone operators, wheelwrights, vacuum tube manufacturers have to get jobs as computer repair people, and iPod sellers, etc. for our country to progress.” Transitions are absolutely painful, but it is a disgrace that school students don’t get enough economics instruction that these things would be understandable to them.

      A few well made ads could make this case. Google Danny DeVito’s speech in “Other people’s money” if you don’t think that someone could make that case– and that’s coming from Hollywood– people who don’t believe that in their gut. We conservatives should be educating people from now ’til the election.

      • Ann_W

  • unitedwestood

    Bain capital did what it needed to do to be viable. BUT I do question how this same model is going to work for America as a whole. What? Who’s getting California? — Mexico? Canada? China? It’s not showing well, and it’s not likely to recover, we need to cash it out and close it down, any takers? What happens to detroit? Canada perhaps?

    Is he going to play CEO with the really big companies in the USA to make them viable and create jobs or, is he going to make a working enviroment and allow them to fail if that is their fate. Will he get out of the way of Banking and allow the banks to fail.. or will he feel that need to prop them up so much to make himself look good that we’re back in the same boat we are in with BHO? These are legitamit questions and require answers and only Romney can answer them. You can’t fire a state worth of people… and sell off the state just beacuse it makes the balance sheet look bad.

    Romney was picking winners and losers.. he was playing real life monopoly. Isn’t that what BHO has been doing? Perry has been creating an enviroment for those businesses to thrive in.. he wasn’t picking the winner or the loser.. he allowed the markets to do that. The businesses were allowed to pick their customer base and maintain, expand or decline that base, but the state government wasn’t in their business telling them how to run their business.

    What is Romney’s plan for creating jobs? Maybe I’ve missed it… but just telling me that he’s created jobs and knows how… doesn’t mean much. I want him to know how to create an enviroment for other to create jobs in.

    • porkandcheese

      Romney has never created jobs. He has never known real risk or adversity. He defines privilege, even against a profligate incumbent like Obama.

      It really irks me how Romney now takes credit for the success Bain, Dominos and Sports Authority have become, exaggerating his role rather than defending his private sector experience.

      Domino’s was a success long before Bain Capital — made so by its founder, Tom Monaghan, (who wanted to cash out and get on with his charity work).

      Staples’ success is due to its founder, the entrepreneur Thomas Stenberg. Bain was an investor, not its driving force, not its manager. They invested right before the company went public.

      Bain was one of a syndicate of venture capitalists that invested in Sports Authority. It was not the lead venture capitalist. Romney claim its success as being due to him or Bain is stretching the truth beyond belief.

      • unitedwestood

        You added to what, I now read as my poorly writen comment. How can a man like Romney say that he’s ‘created’ jobs. Cain could say that he’s “created’ Jobs.. but that’s really not the part of the president or congress. They’re job is to get out of the way and set a business friendly enviroment for the “PRIVATE” sector to create jobs.

        I think so many times people get hung up on what is actually being said. You can say anything you want…. but that doesn’t mean it’s the truth. You can spell out a plan, doesn’t mean it’s going to work.

        I’ve owned and operated a business with our own capital, sweat & blood. If you have government agencies that want to suck you dry then you’re not going to make it in that business, or any other in that town, city or state. Between Obama and Unions I’m shocked that any business can stay a float at this point. I just want to make sure that we’re not getting more of the same… and with Romney… I just see more of the same. My opinion only… and it’s subject to change with more information.

      • unitedwestood

        You added to what, I now read as my poorly writen comment. How can a man like Romney say that he’s ‘created’ jobs. Cain could say that he’s “created’ Jobs.. but that’s really not the part of the president or congress. They’re job is to get out of the way and set a business friendly enviroment for the “PRIVATE” sector to create jobs.

        I think so many times people get hung up on what is actually being said. You can say anything you want…. but that doesn’t mean it’s the truth. You can spell out a plan, doesn’t mean it’s going to work.

        I’ve owned and operated a business with our own capital, sweat & blood. If you have government agencies that want to suck you dry then you’re not going to make it in that business, or any other in that town, city or state. Between Obama and Unions I’m shocked that any business can stay a float at this point. I just want to make sure that we’re not getting more of the same… and with Romney… I just see more of the same. My opinion only… and it’s subject to change with more information.

    • oldlady

      out that whether or not Romney was successful as creating jobs as a CEO in private enterprise, which put money in his OWN pocket, he was a total failure in instituting an environment which created jobs (47th in the nation) as CEO of Massachusetts while managing the taxpayers money. Meanwhile Perry, himself, can show that as the CEO of a State and managing the taxpayers money, he was able to institute an environment which created more jobs than the entire rest of the nation put together.

      My own former governor, Corzine, (former CEO of Goldman Sachs) is one of the clear examples of the fact that people who can make millions when their own personal gain is at stake in the private sector, as CEOs of a government are complete and total failures. Under Corzine, businesses fled the State enmass as well as overtaxed millionaires, and with the State of New Jersey near bankruptcy lost his bid for re-election to Governor Christie.

      Instead of hitting at Romney’s bain experiences Rick Perry should be pointing out his complete and total failure at creating a jobs creating environment as CEO of a government in Massachusetts while he, himself succeeded magnificantly!

  • http://lukos.com Ed54

    and the economic principle behind it. It’s more than just people “should be able” to fire service providers who give bad service. That process is a core attribute of any market economy. Consumers pick products and services by balancing two crteria: price and quality. Without both signals to producers and providers, the market does not work.

    Incredibly, liberals and democrats never seem to get this, which is why they constantly propose government intervention for varous perceived corporate offenses rather than trusting consumers to fire businesses that don’t give them their money’s worth.

  • clowngirl

    Being pro- capitalist should not mean being pro-exploitation — there is a claim that Romney’s company made it’s fortune by exploiting smaller companies and it should be taken seriously and thoroughly investigated.

    Circling the wagons around Romney’s business record (the primary rationale for his bid for the Presidency) then it gives the impression that Republicans consider business people to be exempt from normal standards of morality — and that CEOs are some form of Republican protected group.

    Maybe Bain exploited some of the companies it took over – maybe they acted in good faith but just didn’t succeed.

    We can’t know without knowing more facts. And we shouldn’t fear to find out.

    Romney claims his experience as CEO of Bain qualifies him to be the leader of the free world. If his record is indeed honorable he should WANT to talk about it.

    A mere 4 years in elected office is a pretty slim resume for POTUS.

    The burden of proof is on Romney to prove being a businessman equips him for the White House.

    Btw, Dan talked about desperation: it’s Romney who seems desperate to me – needing to run millions of dollars of largely dishonest ads against Newt – even with all the other advantages he has.

    • oldlady

      (i.e. Massachusetts), when under his watch his State was 47TH in jobs creation! Like so many other millionaires who go into politics he’s not very good when he’s not profitting personally.

  • Oldflyer

    Folks are pretending, or buying the legend, that Bain was just a corporate raider. My personal experience with Bain was different.

    They provided the seed money for a start up airline where I was one of the original pilots. They took a big risk on a small business that ultimately provided hundreds of jobs.

    They were not fools and they did cut their losses after it became clear that do to inept management, and cut throat competition from the 800lb gorillas in the industry we were not going to survive. Still without Bain’s willingness to risk their capital on a fledgeling enterprise, it would never have got off the ground (no pun).

    That is the role that venture capitalists play. I bet that many of the people knocking Romney think Buffet is a Capitalist Saint; and he is at least as ruthless as Bain ever was.

    • unitedwestood

      But that’s my opinion.

  • ww2nd95

    has a much better chance at beating Obama then Romney, I beleive. I know it’s more then likely to late to hope for him, but I do think he would be a good POTUS.

    With Romney, everyone who has said Bain will be the bane of Romney’s existence in this election is right. It doesn’t matter how many jobs he saved in reality, it doesn’t matter how profitable he made other corporations he invested, all that matters is how the public perceives the guy in the baseball cap, saying that Romney cost him his job, along with 100s of his friends, and how he’s struggling now, all because Mitt Romney invested in his company. Sure a lot of it will be blown out of proportion, but then again this is politics, and I think this one of Romney’s biggest weaknesses, along with a semi liberal record in MA, and various flip flops, which all add up to creating a very weak opponent for Obama.

    Now with Huntsman, think about it, during a debate, what exactly is Obama going to hit him with? Huntsman is a true conservative if anyone researches him, so I don’t think the Obama Lite term applies to him. He had a great career in a very conservative state, he has appeal to independents and disappointed Obama supporters. Some say that the Boston Globe endorsement is a negative, where as I see it as a positive in the general election. All Obama will have on him is their ideological differences, which he will have with every Republican. Only with Huntsman, he won’t have the baggage to nail him with, he won’t have Bain, he won’t have Romneycare to hit him with. Huntsman doesn’t have a true weakness to exploit, like everyone else. And better yet for Huntsman in the general election, Obama selected him to be an ambassador under his Admin. Sure that hurts him with the Rep base, but again, in the general election, it’s another strength against Obama.

    I just do not understand why Romney is the nominee based on electability, when Huntsman has the same kind of electability, if not more so, along with the Government, and successful business experience. In my opinion, he beats Romney in every category.

  • The_Gadfly

    and what is regretable is how quickly the talking heads are walking it back.

    First up, while it is true that everybody loves Edward Lewis by the end of Pretty Woman evrybody justifiably hates him at the beginning. While it is true that a properly functioning economy needs people and companies who break apart failing enterprises, they rarely make good leaders for government. When we look for government leaders, we look for people who generate jobs, not destroy them: venture capitalists, not corporate raiders. You can’t fire enough people to make the economy productive when you are President.

    Second, if it had been Rick Perry who had been a corporate leader at Bain Capital, would he have gotten off functionaries proclaiming “But that’s a necessary part of capitalism. Republicans shouldn’t be fighting against capitalism.” No, he would have taken both barrels for not being ready to answer an obvious line of attack The Big 0 WILL be using in the general election.

    Third, even in context, the optics on “I like firing people” are bad. The statement is loaded with hatred and negativity, which is why it sells so well in Donald Trump’s low class “reality” tv show when he lands the “You’re Fired!” line. The better optics are “Shouldn’t you have the option of switching to a better company if you can find one?” It is positive, and focuses on building, not destroying. It also points at one of the built-in problems of Obamacare: it’s built as the pre-cursor to a single payer system, which eliminates just that possibility.

    • aesthete

      “make the economy productive” by hiring *or* by firing. In fact, you kind of have to stay out of the way and not muck it up for your betters if you want to achieve success, which requires more humility than your typical Presidential candidate, more prudence than your typical pundit, and more observational skills than your typical journalist.

      “If it had been Rick Perry[...snip]” Then the Rick Perry chorus would have defended him using just the tack that the Romney supporters did — and rightly so. The Romney supporters would have concern trolled the hell out of it — just like most of the Perry supporters are. You know how I know that? Because earlier in the year, the shoe was on the other foot, with Romney attacking Perry from the left on entitlements. Besides, who cares? Either an argument is correct or it is not; either something is a problem in the general or it is not. In this case, Romney’s defense is right on, but it won’t make a bit of difference in the general — he’ll get eaten alive on this issue because most voters aren’t paying attention. To reference your title, Mitt doesn’t deserve the attacks he’s receiving. But to reference Clint Eastwood’s “Unforgiven”, deserve’s got nothing to do with it.

      • jakeofalltrades

        I am demonizing the greedy capitalist to all un-nuanced minds listening.

        If politics isn’t war, why do they call it a campaign?

        • aesthete

          if you’re willing to shrug it off when Perry gets the same treatment. From your postings you seem like a good-natured guy who’ll do just that, but it will be pretty amusing (for me, anyways) to see the rest of the Perry Yell-leaders whining about the UNFAIRNESS OF IT ALL *sniffle* when the same exact thing happens to their guy.

          I do agree that your bit of nuance is accurate and that if Perry, Newt, et al were smarter, that would have been the tack to use without potentially losing the votes of conservatives bothered by their attacks.

      • The_Gadfly

        the point isn’t that he’s doing the hiring, the point is the firing attitude is negative and not what the country wants or more importantly, needs. It wants and needs the same thing it needed back in the dark ages when Reagan ran for office: an optimist who knows we can come back from this because we’ve done it before. That never comes from the kind of guy who likes to fire people, whether the people be the deadwood at a company acquired by Bain, or your insurance company. It comes from a venture capital guy, or in his abscence, the guy who delivered the same sort of growth as a sitting governor. Mittens had the same chance to generate those kinds of numbers that Perry did. Mittens didn’t deliver, Perry did. Mittens is the wrong optics, Perry is the right optics, even when he does trip over his best lines.

  • http://www.timothy-bladel.com/ center77

    I at first thought of maybe Santorum because I agree with his social views, but he is a lobbyist. I just cannot look at Newt any different than Romney, and Newt just has too much baggage, and he was a lobbyist.’ Plus Newt supported the mandate and has slip slop as well.

    I’ve taken a lot of slack for saying Romney is third on my list, and I understand why. I cannot stand Romney and his record. What I cannot stand even more is the insider lobbyist, power playing, selling myself former elected officials. I want to rid Washington of this, and Perry is my only real hope, but I suspect that those who benefitted so greatly of the system the way it is will never change it, and that is what Newt and Santorum are. Plus Romney has executive experience as a governor, and he has never been to Washington as an elected official. I will take that over the lobbyist any day, but I will hate every minute of it.

    Perry is the one, and the party will make a huge mistake if they do not get this soon.

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      Newt was never a lobbyist. There are plenty of issues to call out Newt, but this isn’t one of them. No one’s going to take you seriously if you continue to lie. This is especially true of Perry supporters that talk so much about character.

      • http://www.timothy-bladel.com/ center77

        I see no way Newt did not lobby for Freddie Mac

        There are many ways to establish connections when a lobbyist such as entertaining, gift giving, and campaign contributions. One of the newest forms of lobbying is to offer information, information packaging is done by people who have vast knowledge of how things work or have deep connections with elected members of government.

        Newt got paid 30,000 an hour, according to him as a historian, but Freddie Mac could have hired the best team of historians for half that, and it would have been a better deal. They would have used that information for something they planned to use, but like Newt said they paid him over a million dollars for something they did not even use. I know you can deduct how much sense that makes.

        No, I don?t know for 100% Newt was a lobbyist, but I can deduct from the evidence that he likely functioned in that capacity for them, it makes no sense for them to spend that much money for a lesson in history, and there has already been members of both Freddie Mac and his former colleagues that have said he did indeed lobby them, and the amount of money indicates lobbying.

        No I will admit that I cannot say for 100%, but neither can you, but other than he is saying he did not lobby for them, what points you do that conclusion, what makes you think that. Was it that he did not register as a lobbyist, well that is a weak case, but if the glove don?t fit, well you know the rest? He was a lobbyist; it is the only thing that makes sense.

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          If there really was any evidence of lobbying it would’ve come out by now. You’ve made an accusation of illegal activity against a candidate. Put up, or shut up.

    • kegan05

      I agree that people are totally overlooking the most qualified man for the job. Rick Perry is not a flashy Debater but he is a Doer who knows how to get the job done. He is a straight-talking, honest man with good morals and can related to the common working man and woman more than a Wall Street Money Man or a couple of corrupt Washington Insiders. Mitt Romney will be eaten alive by Comrade Obozo if he is our Nominee. Same with Newt Gingrich. Perry needs to get some traction in this race soon, but the Republican “elitists” and “insiders,” along with the Media are trying to pretend he doesn’t exist.

      They are going to be so very sorry when the wrong man is chosen to face the corrupt Chicago Obama machine. God help our country if we have to endure 4 more years of the most destructive, divisive fool we have ever had in the oval office. I weep for my country.

  • jabailo

    Hasn’t just about everyone defined the problem as these Too Big To Fail organizations getting to exist and put on life support with trillions of tax payer money. Obama couldn’t kill them…nor could the Tea Party. Gingrinch and Paul are good orators…but even when they held power, did they do one single thing to reduce these TBTF organizations.

    At least Romney was part of the take no prisoners generation that went up against all the hoary old laggard businesses and got them out of the way so the next generation could take over. That’s what we really need, not a nursemaid like Obama…but an axe wielding Visigoth to sweep into Washington and pillage the place like the good corporate raider that Mitt is.

    He’s got the skills we’re after!

    • unitedwestood

      n/t

    • unitedwestood

      n/t

    • http://www.timothy-bladel.com/ center77

      that is the last thing I think we need.

  • jonbg

    While I am not a fan of Romney as General Election candidate, I don’t think that the video that the Gingrich PAC is releasing is a good idea.

    There is a role for both venture capitalism and private equity. Leveraged buyouts are an important financial vehicle to fix troubled companies and troubled industries.

    The issue I have with a Romney candidacy is his business practices. There are two parts to Mitt Romney’s business experience: his venture capital experience and his private equity experience. The venture capital experience is easily defended. Venture capital creates jobs.

    It is his private equity experience that is more troublesome. In the current economic climate, can an aggressive leveraged buyout king win the hearts and minds of Americans who work hard every day and play by the rules?

    P.S. – I hope that people give Newt credit for defending Romney on the “firing” quote.

    P.S.S. – Not that I’m a Romney fan, but if I were him, when it’s brought up, I’d mention a few people I’d like to fire … Obama et al.

    • http://www.timothy-bladel.com/ center77

      this is said very well, and I agree,

  • philkc

    I am appalled that Newt is embracing the delusional far-left doctrine of Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) as the basis for criticizing Romney’s role in Bain Capital. As Milton Friedman wrote, “The social responsibility of business is to increase profits… (CSR is) pure and unadulterated socialism. Businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades.” If we don’t like the rules corporations obey, we should change them by legislation, not by demanding corporate altruism.
    This folly will come back to haunt him just as much as his idiotic appearance with Nancy Pelosi re Global Warming. To judge by his poor showing in NH, this latest betrayal of free enterprise may have destroyed his candidacy already. For the sake of our nation, he absolutely must desist forthwith, acknowledge that he has made a very serious policy mistake, and disavow any similar attacks on Romney by his supporters.
    Newt is the best of the lackluster GOP candidates, but he has no chance at all of winning the nomination if he allows himself to be depicted as farther left than Romney.

  • dajeeps

    He plans on doing to the Federal government what he did to the businesses in Newt’s SuperPAC documentary. There are plenty of people in gov’t right now who should not be there, and there are plenty of things gov’t does that need to get the axe. But that isn’t what Romney is saying. In fact, his agenda is pretty nebulous and convoluted with few real commitments to shrinking government.

    There is a huge question mark in my mind what “running government like a business” really means. Does it mean using tax money for venture capital like Obama did with Solyndra? If it does, then I don’t agree. If it means playing around with the centralized economic planning apparatus, like socialists did for housing, to support corporatism instead of dismantling it in favor of free market allocation of capital, then I don’t agree.

    There are way too many assumptions that need to be drawn regarding fundamental economic matters and guesses to be made about what Romney might actually do once he gets into the White House. He hasn’t been clear or straight forward regarding specifics like these at all, and that is a big problem as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps if he left much less to speculation, he wouldn’t be having so many problems getting the rest of us to sign off on the deal.

  • jaybird248

    Gingrich nailed it when he said that Bain’s pulling $180M from a business they got for $30M was wrong when it dumped the business into bankruptcy. “Why couldn’t they have pulled $60M? That would have been a good return,” he said. That would have both enriched Bain and saved the firm and its jobs. But that’s not where Bain’s values lay. That “profits over people no matter what” attitude is what makes Romney a vulture. And that’s why the Dems will be able to dump him in November.

    • jakeofalltrades

      n//t

  • ihateliberals

    I have never seen a Political Party so hell bent on losing an election as the Republicans are in the most important election in history. I hve never seen a field of candidates that are as bad as what our Party has chosen to run. There are only liberal and moderates running for office from either side. some more liberal than others. Now we have a Massachusetts Liberal Republican that, “for God only knows what reason”, people have in their mind wil beat Obama in November. It is like they have all drank the Kool-aide and gone bonkers. They kicked every possible candidate that had full conservative values out of the race and labeled them un-electable against Obama. Now like a bunch of Lemmings they are following Romney right off the cliff. The Democrats have successfully turned the election to the economy away form Obamacare. The economy will get slightly better this summer and Obama wil play on that and other negative things about Romney ahd he will walk away as president once again. The othe rside of this mill-stone is what if Romney does win? he is only slightly different than Obama on most issues. The worlds worst healthcare law will stil be on the books because Romney has no intention of repealing it. He might make some changes but repeal will be out of the question. Why? Because he was the original architect. People hve forgotten what the Democrats did in 2009 and what will happen if they get Southern shot at the House and win it. There is a good chance of that as well.

    I guess what I am getting at is having been a life long Conservative Republican and then seeing what a real honest to-goodness conservative can do in the white house i just can’t understand the people tht don’t support conservatives anymore. I am tired of fighting any more. People are tired of being free and they demand tht the government take care of them and all of their petty needs. Free school, free this and free that. All supplied by me the tax payer. Almost every Empire in the world finally collapsed from the inside out and ot from the outside in as you would think. Islam and the Progressive Liberals are using our own constitution to tear us apart. China is putting us into debt that we can never pay off and most likely wil have to either become part of China or fight a war we can’t win with them. Yeah and about that. The reason we can’t win a war with them is that most everything the military wears or needs is made in China or Mexico. so basically we are screwed an with Romney being merrily pushed along but the Lemmings of the Republican Party We’re screwed!!!!!!!

  • Scope

    and not long ago, when he was still riding high in the polls, said that it was the dumbest thing he’s ever done? Uh Huh, well he’s about to do it again, but this time with Liberal James Clyburn who he will be appearing at a rally with to promote homeownership. Remember when he was questioned about his work at Freddie Mac, and he said he was just a historian? Remember when he finally came clean in one of the debates saying that he was always in support of homeownership, and lectured that we all should be in favor of homeownership for every American? On Thursday, tomorrow, he is about to prove that he was in fact a part of the housing melt down in 2008, mostly brought on by the liberals.

    It appears that the old nasty Newt is rearing it’s ugly head. I believe that we are seeing why the Republicans in Congress forced him out of his Speakership role, when he also quit Congress completely. Remember the comments from some that served with him when they said that Newt is never more than 5 minutes away from the self destruct button? It appears that Newt now has his finger on that button. If he can’t have the nom., by dang, no one else will get it either. He is getting hammered for his over the top attacks on Romney with his time at Bain. He doesn’t care. He is a man on a roll with his quest for revenge on Romney, and he doesn’t care who else he takes down with him, including the Republican party. Newt has become dangerous.

    Santorum said he is going on to SC, even with a 4-5 place finish in NH. The Santorum blush is off the rose, just as it was with Huckabee back in 08.

    Huntsman said he is going on to SC, even with a third place finish. He said himself yesterday, before the votes were counted, that he needed a strong second place finish to remain viable. Not sure he will stay with his decision to carry on. He doesn’t have any money, campaign staff, or message that can/will appeal to the voters in SC. I say he drops before then.

    I just saw a piece this morning on CNN, where they showed Perry’s ad buys throughout the state. It was also said that his superPAC is extremely active in SC. He has been on a bus tour in SC, and is covering as much ground as anyone can. He has had more CNN coverage in the last few days, covering his speeches and rallies, than he had throughout the whole season. Perry is very nicely positioned right now to finally become the last conservative standing to take on Romney. For those that have been calling for Perry to quit the race, and saying that he has no chance, I’d reconsider if I were you. NH didn’t have a conservative in the top three. That will change in SC.

  • nepanyrush

    The National Review did a synopsis on the New Hampshire election with a lot of people that I admire and overall, the view is of Gingrich and Perry morphing into Michael Moore in their attacks on Bain.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/287795/what-new-hampshire-means-nro-symposium?pg=1

    As Hugh Hewitt observes: “Whatever chance at a comeback Speaker Gingrich and Governor Perry had went up on the pyre they lit with their attacks, on Bain specifically and free-market venture capital generally. The recognition that one cannot defend capitalism while attacking capital is spreading. Blaming Bain for layoffs is like blaming the lifeboats for being late to the Titanic. No matter how you judge their performances, we are a whole lot better for having venture capitalists at hand, even when they don?t bat anywhere near 1.000. Most will inevitably agree that Romney?s tenure at Bain was wildly successful, as was his leadership of the Olympics. ”

    It seems that Redstate has gone off the tracks. Because most of the writers of lead articles want Perry, they have attacked any non-Perry candidate (even Santorum, a true conservative) and have defended such policies as in-state tuition for illegal aliens, guarasil, and now attacks on free enterprise and making profits.

    Even Rush Lilmbaugh and Senator DeMint have had enough with the Gingrich and Perry attacks. I listened to Senator DeMint today and I see no way he would ever endorse Perry now after his shameless attacks from the left. It is as if Gingrich and Perry have decided to be attack dogs for Michael Moore (another conservative gave that analogy) and Obama.

  • sharrondeer

    “Romney was making a completely valid point: that people should be able to fire service providers like insurance companies if they?re not getting good service.”

    Yes, that’s pro-consumer. In theory. Not many people are able to “fire” their health insurance provider, though, since most get their health insurance through work. Not to mention those who have private insurance don’t dare “fire” them if they’re sick, since their pre-existing condition will ensure that either they pay prohibitive premiums (if they’re lucky to find someone willing to carry them) or their illness isn’t covered.

    In Romney’s world, a world made up of very rich people, people can do pretty much anything they want. His statement shows how out of touch he is with most Americans, just like his $10,000 bet offer did.

  • carolynr

    does this fit Romney to a tee.

    A Venture Capitalist is a concern that puts “seed” money into NEW businesses and usually they have given equity in the firm until they are paid back. It’s an investment.

    Trying to paint Perry as part of the OWS crowd is stupid…but then most people don’t know what that is about. OWS is about redistribution of wealth. It is envy of the rich.

    People in South Carolina who lost their jobs are not envious of rich people…they want to be able to work. The company might have gone under…but why did Bain get involved in the first place. Were they NEW companies…or were they WEAK companies…ready for Bain to take full advantage of. It wouldn’t be the first time that an investor, posing as a “helping hand”, took the equity from the company and therefore owned it and then pilfered its profits to move onto the next target…with one big mega bonus.
    It fits Romney’s flip flop approach …I’ll help you…then once in the door…uh oh…goodbye company. It’s like…I’m pro-life…and then once considered a Conservatives…funds Planned Parenthood.

    Yes..I happen to think Perry might be onto something with Vulture Capitalism. New companies…not failing companies…that venture capitalism. Oh…oh…that’s not WILLARD’S explanation…”he turned companies around”. Well then…lose the word…venture capitalist.

    • kegan05

      At first I was upset with Perry and Gingrich for hitting so hard against “capitalism” but I just finished watching the infamous Mitt Video and now have a sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach.

      The Bain guys do come off looking like Vultures. Greedy vultures. Romney is said to be worth over 260 Billion but nobody really knows because he has kept it a close secret. Most of his money in in offshore accounts and Blind Trusts.

      Bain and Company headed by CEO Mitt Romney devastated the lives of thousands of employees whose companies they stripped bare and sold off for profit. Comrade Obozo will have a field day with this Video and I don’t think Mitt has a chance of being the next President. He comes off as a cold, calculating Gordon Gekko.

      We need a Mitt Alternative in the worst way! My choice would be Rick Perry because he is a Veteran, has a good record as the Governor of Texas, and has much less baggage than Newt Gingrich but the media is against him. Rick Santorum leaves me cold so he is not an option. Neither is Ron Paul. I have held my nose and voted for RINO’s in the last two elections and swore I would never do it again. I am really on a downer and feeling hopeless about my choice for President, yet again. This sucks!!

      Perry for President 2012!

      • Risky

        If he was worth that much he could make a small dent in the national debt!

        I think the official figure is something like 190-250m.

  • swordofzorro

    There’s something about Mitt’s eyes. I dunno, just wierd. Maybe he’s tired…maybe I am.

    • jakeofalltrades

      The top and bottom positions of his eyes are constantly flipping.

  • http://chuckdevore.com chuckdevore

    Bruce Herschensohn ran against Barbara Boxer in 1994, beating Tom Campbell and Sonny Bono to win the primary. Herschensohn wasn’t a wealthy, self-funded candidate, rather, he was a conservative L.A.-based TV commentator who had experience in the Nixon Administration. He ran for the Senate nomination in 1986, losing to the self-funded and moderate Ed Zschau, a two-term Congressman from the Silicon Valley. Herschensohn ran the closest to Boxer in a year that featured a weak George H.W. Bush at the top of the ticket with Ross Perot doing better in California than in most states.

  • Right Reason

    You cite 15 different candidates, 10 of which were from the liberal bastions of California, New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. Another example, Jack Ryan, was pushed out due to the release of some rather unsavory details from a “sealed” divorce record. To draw the conclusion that their self-funding made them unelectable is a stretch, at best.