Well, we really stuck it to the Democrats today. Instead of passing Cut, Cap, and Balance, a plan that will never pass the Senate and would have foisted the blame of a default upon us (supposedly), we orchestrated a plan to really own them. We came up with Boehner plan 2.0 that..well, …..will not pass the Senate – and will force a default, unless we agree to a watered down version of the watered down version.
As of late this afternoon, the underpinnings of a compromise Democrat plan were beginning to materialize:
Democrats are aiming for a debt-limit compromise similar to the House Republican plan, with at least one major difference: The second vote on raising the debt ceiling would not depend on Congress passing a broader deficit-reduction package.
The shape of this potential compromise meshes major elements of the proposals offered in recent weeks by House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), according to Democratic officials familiar with the negotiations.
Under the possible compromise, Congress could still get a second crack at voting on the debt limit within months. But rather than linking the vote to Congress approving the recommendations of a new 12-member committee — as it would be in Boehner’s bill — Democrats prefer McConnell’s proposal that allows President Barack Obama to lift the debt ceiling unless two-thirds of both chambers override his veto of a disapproval resolution, the officials said. (emphasis added)
So, if this is ultimately the best plan that Democrats will pass, should we support it? What is the bottom line for GOP leaders, in which they would be willing to keep their a@#$ on their own line?
As we speak, House leaders are going through cerebral gyrations to convince Republicans that this is our last option. Earlier today, Speaker Boehner refused to say whether he would force his own bill to the brink if and when Harry Reid rejects it in the Senate.
At the very least, these leaders owe the rank-and-file members two commitments: 1) They will commit to fighting for at least some of the fundamentals of the House-passed budget. 2) Even though they retreated on Cut, Cap, and Balance and are forcing them to vote for an “imperfect bill,” they will hold the line on Boehner 2.0, reject any further compromise, and tell Obama to get his a@#$ in line.
Or, is that bellicose rhetoric only reserved for fellow conservatives?
Moe Lane
Dan McLaughlin
Dan Spencer
Jeff Emanuel
Neil Stevens
Caleb Howe
Daniel Horowitz
Lori Ziganto
How low will they sink?
ghostship Thursday, July 28th at 7:58PM EDT (link)We Conservatives want the Republicans to take a stand and hold the line. However, it’s just a political game to the Establishment and unfortunately for us the game is Limbo and they intend to see how low they can go under the line.
After all it’s just a game to the Establishment. We Conservatives are the rubes who actually care about this stuff.
No, it is not a political game to some of them
Kyle-MI (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:33PM EDT (link)Some of them see the possibility of a double dip recession or worse, a replay of the great depression. I am not saying that the fiscal crisis would happen, just that some who considering giving in are seriously scared by this possibility.
You may disagree with them, but that is not an excuse to consider them unserious.
Fine
Daniel Horowitz (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:38PM EDT (link)But then they shouldn’t have promised extracting trillions in concession from Dems, if they thought the whole debt limit business was too risky. It’s all about credibility. That’s all it ever was.
$1.00 Dollar
ghostship Thursday, July 28th at 8:20PM EDT (link)Just to prove that we Conservatives aren’t completely unreasonable I have a proposal that I would support.
$1.00 Dollar in real cuts.
One measly dollar.
I will support any plan if they agree that the amount the government can spend in 2012 is $1.00 less than the amount to be spent in 2011.
The sad thing is that would be the largest spending cut Washington has made in decades.
Come on, it’s just one lousy dollar.
ghostship for Speaker!
alaskaescapeartist (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:25PM EDT (link)n/t
How would the Left be able to spin that?
ghostship Thursday, July 28th at 8:32PM EDT (link)Seriously, if the House Republicans were too offer to increase the debt ceiling in exchange for a $1.00 real spending cut the Democrats would be at a complete loss as to how to paint that as extreme.
Heck, if I was a member of Congress I’d even offer for the dollar to come out of my salary.
Whoa ghostship...
alaskaescapeartist (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 9:08PM EDT (link)now you’re starting to sound like one of them “hobbit” thingys’ we’ve been hearing so much about.
We’ll borrow the dollar… that should keep everyone happy.
Dem plan
clintonformccain Thursday, July 28th at 8:21PM EDT (link)By blowing up the Republican caucus, the tea party folk have taken themselves out of the game. Reid will get a few RINOs in the Senate to vote out a Dem bill and it will pass the House with Democrat votes plus a few Republican squishes who will vote for anything to avoid default.
And we'll be just a little bit closer to this...
PaladinLostHour (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 9:16PM EDT (link)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_urWSSZgwU
(And please – no tired cliches about how we’ve pulled through worse before. We haven’t; not with a country where
1) near 50% of the population can (additional h/t Robert Heinlein) “vote themselves largess from the public treasury”, and
2) we’ve had wholesale importation of a cultural cohort centered on the concept of ‘el patrón’, which is highly resistant to assimilation.)
If a Dem Plan passes the House, Boehner Owns It
kipling (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 9:27PM EDT (link)If your scenario happens, it will be because Boehner has blown up his caucus to support his ego.
Nope
cordpt Thursday, July 28th at 9:34PM EDT (link)He’s exactly right. The “Hold the line” crew will need to be accountable at some point – and this is going to be it. If the Bohener’s bill doesn’t pass, they’ll own the pile of crap that will come out of DC. I’ve said from the beginning: the GOP had no leverage, the debt limit needs to be raised and the later it was raised the worse the deal the GOP would get.
The Ron Paul & Co crowd managed to transform what could have been a major political victory for the GOP that would sink Obama and the Dems in 2012 and a decent policy outcome in a huge defeats in both fronts. For once, it’s their time to take responsibility. The line was hold. Now what?
The GOP is always to blame.
ghostship Thursday, July 28th at 9:55PM EDT (link)I’m sick and tired of hearing about how those of us who oppose that stinking pile of garbage Boehner calls a plan means we’ll be responsible for them BLAME.
Who cares about blame!
In case you have never noticed everything is always the fault of the evil GOP. If an asteroid was to hit the and wipe out most life on the planet the GOP will get the blame!
We shouldn’t care about blame!
We are ALWAYS going to be blamed for whether we deserve it or not!
We should be worrying about the RIGHT THING TO DO!
We are MASSIVELY IN DEBT!
We are in line to become the next GREECE!
The right thing to do is NOT to increase the debt ceiling in exchange for accounting gimmicks!
We shouldn’t be passing plans that are nothing but a complete FARCE!
That's okay
cordpt Thursday, July 28th at 10:22PM EDT (link)However, that means that the Democrats will keep the presidency in 2012 and take full control of the Hill. If you thought that Obamacare was bad, wait to see what they’re going to do then.
The Dems will always try to blame the GOP for everything; it seems you believe that’s the issue here but you’re wrong. The question is if they succeed, if the public, especially the swingish voters that decide elections, buys their rhetoric. If the Republicans cause the default by not raising the debt limit, then obviously the public will buy what the Dems are saying. Even if they don’t, it will always creates confusion that only benefits Obama. Quoting Kraut:
I have every sympathy with the conservative counterrevolutionaries. Their containment of the Obama experiment has been remarkable. But reversal — rollback, in Cold War parlance — is simply not achievable until conservatives receive a mandate to govern from the White House…
Obama faces two massive problems — jobs and debt. They’re both the result of his spectacularly failed Keynesian gamble: massive spending that left us a stagnant economy with high and chronic unemployment — and a staggering debt burden. Obama is desperate to share ownership of this failure. Economic dislocation from a debt-ceiling crisis precisely serves that purpose — if the Republicans play along. The perfect out: Those crazy tea partiers ruined the recovery!
Why would any conservative collaborate with that ploy? November 2012 constitutes the new conservatism’s one chance to restructure government and change the ideological course of the country. Why risk forfeiting that outcome by offering to share ownership of Obama’s wreckage?
You are aware that not raising the debt ceiling will actually increase spending and the debt, right?
Who will bail us out
mutantone Friday, July 29th at 5:46AM EDT (link)No we are not Greece nor Portugal but we sent money to bail them out. Or Egypt or the Muslim Brotherhood who we sent tanks to or the PLO or a bunch of other wasted projects far to many to list.
cordpt the apologist
kipling (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 11:10PM EDT (link)Boehnor, the leader of the Republicans, cannot even put forward a decent bill that has Republican support. He blows up his own caucus by publicly and privately bludgeoning his own members. He sells out his caucus and his own plan before the vote by secretly negotiating with the Democrats in the Senate and the White House.
And all of this is supposed to be my fault and the fault of everyone who put their conservative principles over another back room deal that is worse than no deal.
Boehner is a poor leader and his plan does nothing to solve the problem. The only positive thing you can say about it is that it might – long shot – be a public relations coup. Except that will not happen because Reid will use the bill as a vehicle for his own plan and then cram it down Bohner’s throat.
The question you should ask is who is the bigger tool – the tool (Boehner) or the tool who follows the tool?
So, what's your plan?
cordpt Thursday, July 28th at 11:26PM EDT (link)Bohener’s plan doesn’t “solve the problem”? So, what’s exactly the plan to “solve the problem”?
Bohener’s plan is a significant downgrade from McDonnell’s plan – but those who opposed McDonnell’s plan already own this downgrade. And those who oppose Bohener’s plan will also own the downgrade from it to what eventually gets passed.
As Holtz-Eakin says: And finally, let’s discuss the House Republicans who are standing on the brink of sending to the Senate — who will pass it — and the president — who will sign it — a piece of legislation that is consistent with their principles, if not perfect. Instead of simply voting yes, they have formed a variety of unproductive coalitions: the Coalition of the Willfully Ignorant (who claim you don’t need a debt-ceiling increase or that markets won’t care and there will be no fallout) and the Coalition of It’s Someone Else’s Problem (because I just want to have an issue and campaign). Result: They suffer a political loss and America loses.
People who criticize Bohener’s plan for not “solving the problem” – implying that it will be possible to solve the problem with freaking Democrats in the WH and controlling the senate – should come up with their solution to “solve the problem”. Otherwise their criticism shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Plus, do you really need to include personal insults in every single one of your posts? It comes across as over-emotional and juvenile. Just a suggestion, we all have different ethical and moral standards and I respect that diversity.
We have several plans, cordpt
kipling (Diary) Friday, July 29th at 12:24AM EDT (link)We have CCB. We have the Ryan Budget.
Now your response will be: Neither of those will pass the Senate.
Yet, the Boehner plan will not pass the Senate. In fact, their is more opposition to the Boehner plan than CCB. Now in your previous posts you argued that CCB would never pass because you needed 4 Democrats. Boehner’s plan would require 8 people to switch. Yet, you still advocate for the Boehner plan.
Why? It is not because it is easier to pass. It is not because it does anything to solve the problem or even to begin to solve the problem. So, why?
Nor do you have an answer for what will happen if Reid does use the Boehner bill as a vehicle for his own legislation. Nor have you dealt with the issue of a super commission that will most definitely raise taxes.
When you deal with those issues, we can talk. Until then you are wasting my time. And until then you remain an apologist without concrete answers.
Kipling, his favorite response is "You're wrong,"
Melody Warbington (rwm52) (Diary) Friday, July 29th at 10:26AM EDT (link)usually followed up with a couple of insults.
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things. (John 4:25)
You are drinking left wing talking points
JSobieski (Diary) Friday, July 29th at 10:33AM EDT (link)Do you really think that “there is more opposition to the Boehner plan than the CCB” by Democrats in the Senate?
Why do you think that? Because a bunch of liars told you so?
I thought the Boehner plan was a trap that the D’s wanted us to fall into? The trap scenario is far more realistic than actually believing that Democrat Senators prefer a more conservative plan.
Given that the CCB is at least somewhat to the right to the Boehner plan, why would you think there is less D opposition to the CCB.
When people lie badly you shouldn’t believe them.
More D’s oppose CCB for the same reasons why we like the CCB better than Boehner’s Plan.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Opposition to the Boehner Plan, JSobieski
kipling (Diary) Friday, July 29th at 10:59AM EDT (link)Look through the threads from the past couple of days. Not only have all the Democrats promised to vote against it but so have a handful of Republicans. At last count, the vote would be 8 short. Republican opposition is hardly quoting form leftist talking points.
Now, on the flip side, let us say you are right and the Democrats will embrace the Boehner plan. Why do you want a plan that is embraced by the Democrats and opposed by Republicans in the Senate?
So you believe democrats? You actually believe Reid when he says something?
JSobieski (Diary) Friday, July 29th at 11:10AM EDT (link)I am skeptical when any poltician “promises” anything.
I am particularly skeptical when Reid promises something.
But you obviously feel differently.
There are many reasons why D’s would favor the Boehner plan. 1, the trap scenario. 2. It is closer to what they want.
I prefer the Mack plan. The CCB is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors, like the Boehner plan.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Failed to Answer the Question, JSobieski, You Are Inconsistent
kipling (Diary) Friday, July 29th at 12:05PM EDT (link)For the sake of the argument, let us say that you are correct and the Boehner plan will pass with Democratic support in the Senate. Why do you favor a plan that is satisfactory to the Democrats? You claim not to trust the Democrats yet you would go along with a plan that has their support. Why?
Then you argue that there are many reason the Democrats would support the Boehner plan. You list two. Yet neither of these two reason are a reason for conservatives to vote for the plan. Why should conservatives vote for a trap (Your reason 1)? Why should conservatives vote for a plan that is closer to what the Democrats want (Your reason 2)?
You are flopping all over the place and making no sense.
I am not contradicting anything becuase I am not putting forth a proposition
JSobieski (Diary) Friday, July 29th at 12:14PM EDT (link)I am simply saying that quoting democrats for a proposition is faulty logic.
I have not embraced the “trap” scenario. Nor do I think the Senate would pass the Boehner plan unamended.
I am simply saying that to argue CCB has a better chance because fewer D’s oppose it is flawed thinking.
None of the logic above contradicts itself.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Been there - heard that ....
PaladinLostHour (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:21PM EDT (link)“At the very least, these leaders owe the rank-and-file members two commitments: 1) They will commit to fighting for at least some of the fundamentals of the House-passed budget. 2) Even though they retreated on Cut, Cap, and Balance and are forcing them to vote for an “imperfect bill,” they will hold the line on Boehner 2.0, reject any further compromise, and tell Obama to get his a@#$ in line”
…Daniel – no one believes that anymore. The Republican leadership has a credibility gap that cannot be surmounted. The moment Boehner stated that the McConnell bill ‘might look pretty good a few weeks down the road’, and then, *again* was caught submitting a bill touting significant 2011 cuts that resolved to @ $1bn – it’s been game over.
There are probably 100 folks in Congress right now who would have the appetite, political will, and willingness to explain the deep, immediate cuts required to restore fiscal solvency. Weepin’ John, Eric the Unready, and (even) Paulie the Haircut Ryan are not among their number.
So, with not enough serious folks around, and none of them in the leadership – we’re hosed.
Agreed
Daniel Horowitz (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:35PM EDT (link)I don’t trust them at all. they certainly haven’t done anything to earn it. I’m just saying that at the very least, the conservative members should pin them down on their own commitment to their own plan.
The sad truth about the House leadership...
Jeffrey Malbis (malbis) (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:43PM EDT (link)…is that they are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.
And apparently, they are darned proud that they are.
In a battle of Principle vs. Pragmatism most members of the House and Senate regardless of party seem basically to be on the same side.
Realpolitik has a nasty habit of appearing logical, sane, reasonable and the best course to follow–but I don’t like the pedigree of those who championed it last century, or the history of what they did under its banner. YMMV
Vote yes if Boehner & Cantor resign leadership posts
strikeeagle (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 9:02PM EDT (link)Surely if this vote is so important to the nation these patriots could do that. Then we could get some non-establishment leaders we could trust, they would negotiate with strength and stay on message.
The way they and McConnell have fractured the right is intolerable and they no longer have any credibility.
No way
ideasmatter (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:22PM EDT (link)No way should we support the Boehner plan because we are spooked by the Democrat plan.
I am spooked by Stalin-ism, should I become a Lenin-ist?
We have to stand on principles at some point, I think, possibly, this just might be, that point.
If not now…when?
The "Real" Plan?
amigag Thursday, July 28th at 8:29PM EDT (link)I’m listening to Mark Levin and he is furious that Boehner is in secret working on a “real” plan with Reid, the White House, etc.
He thinks it is awful that he has caused many of the Conservative House members to vote yes on his latest bill and not telling them that he is working on the “real” bill behind the scenes.
I don’t know if this is what this thread topic is referring to or not.
And he called out all the usual suspects
usdebateboard Thursday, July 28th at 8:32PM EDT (link)who go on his show when he makes them look good. He wants to ask them why they are voting on this when they know it’s not the real bill, and will they commit to not voting on the real bill.
Come on, Paul Ryan. Return Mark’s call and take a walk on the wild side.
no one is calling?
amigag Thursday, July 28th at 8:41PM EDT (link)He always has various ones calling his show; silence right now. Maybe someone took their phones:-)
He did say that Louie Gomer of Texas came out all “bloody”(figuratively) from a meeting with Boehner, but Gomer held “the line”.
I heard him say that 25 freshman are holding the line. If those that are voting with this latest of bills have put their pledges(if so) and reputations on the line for a bill that is going nowhere, that is wrong.
Especially if Boehner knows that another bill is the “real” one. How are they going to feel about that?
Whatever Happens, Boehner has lost
kipling (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:36PM EDT (link)Even if he secures enough votes to push the Boehner plan through the House, he has lost. He lost because he split his caucus and publicly and privately bludgeoned fellow Republicans to pass a bill that has no merit – a bill that would only be used in the Senate to further the Reid proposal.
NPR says Reid wanted the Boehner plan so he could use it as a vehicle for his own proposals.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/07/28/138799703/boehner-speakership-hits-rough-tea-party-waters
Reid admits the Boehner plan is a Vehicle for His Own Plan
kipling (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 8:38PM EDT (link)http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/07/28/138799703/boehner-speakership-hits-rough-tea-party-waters
kip - Reid better get House dems to vote for Boehner
carolina Thursday, July 28th at 9:18PM EDT (link)Bill, or he won’t have a “vehicle” for his plan.
Maybe Pelosi won’t cooperate. snicker
It's like playing poker
Conservative_not_Republican (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 9:54PM EDT (link)and announcing at the start of the game “I’ll never call your bluff.”
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.–David Hume
Quoted in The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek
And how did we get to Boehner "2.0" ?
lastgopinillinois (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 10:28PM EDT (link)Could it be because you cant turn on the radio, TV or open your internet browser without hearing the word COMPROMISE 100 times a day and see liberals holding up signs calling for compromise everyday?
Could it be that they feared the people would turn against them if they stood on CCB ?
Not one iota of support for the republican plan could be heard from any media around here, not even the local Fox news channel.
People have been bombarded with threats of default, rising interest rates, stopping social security checks and much more.
Do you think maybe they thought they were pressured into it?
In the beginning, God created earth to be an extension of his vast Kingdom and his LOVE was so great that he wanted to share it with man, whom he created in his own image and likeness and gave him free will.
To this very principal, the Founding Fathers of our nation decreed that freedom is a God-given in-alienable right of all the people.
Beware trojan taxes and spending
Glaucon (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 10:30PM EDT (link)No matter what bill comes up, we can not allow this to be another situation where Nancy Pelosi tells us ““we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it”. This is a fabricated emergency, and one of the objectives of an artificial deadline is to slip in hidden extras like special interest handouts and stealth taxes.
More on this subject:
http://www.redstate.com/glaucon/2011/07/28/now-more-than-ever-read-the-bill/
Did I miss it?
1stRichard (Diary) Thursday, July 28th at 11:53PM EDT (link)I try not to watch, too many complaints about yelling at the TV. I saw the democrat strategy crying jobs and that the government can create jobs but I did not see any conservative rebuttal to that silly notion. Was there and if not why?
There was a half way reply to the Bush tax cuts, democrat strategy to increase taxes. It should have been much more “The 92.1 million taxpayers with annual incomes of less than $50,000 in 2003 saw a 47 percent reduction in their average tax bill from President Bush.” Why do democrats want to increase taxes taxpayers with annual incomes of less than $50,000? In addition, the Bush tax cuts made the tax code more progressive, I had thought the left wants More Progressive and the right wants Less Progressive, what am I missing? What kind of democrat strategy is this?
Someone really needed a better rebuttal to the class warfare strategy. Personally I would have shoved the demagoguery beck at them. Do we have a heavy progressive tax in the US constitution, no, but here it is in the Communist Manifesto, it should be clear what the democrats are turning us in to.
The whole premise of this debate was two fold, increase the debt and control spending. If spending was under control then there would be no need to increase the debt limit so soon, this should have been thrown right back at the democrats, well if you do not want another argument so soon then stop spending so much.
Remember the healthcare debate, back of the bus to we have to pass it to see what is in it, Republicans need to be just as nasty to counter the democrat strategy, but please do it from the moral high ground. If they did, I think Cut Cap and Balance would have had a chance.