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A Conservative Look at Perry’s Economic Plan

When Herman Cain proposed his 9-9-9 plan, many conservatives became energized, despite their misgivings with the fine print of the plan.  It wasn’t so much the details of the proposal that excited the base, as most conservatives intuitively recoiled from a consumption tax; it was the boldness of the plan that resonated with them.  Cain’s 9-9-9 brought some excitement to a race that was defined by a frontrunner who offered 160 pages of banal fluff.  Nevertheless, his plan was too flawed to be utilized as a viable rallying cry in the general election.  Perry appears to have proposed both a viable and bold economic plan, albeit with some inevitable flaws.

Here is a synopsis of all of the major components.

Tax Plan

The centerpiece of the plan is a flat individual income tax of 20%.  This would serve as a vehicle for massive economic growth, as it offers a huge tax cut for job-creators who currently pay as much as 35%.  However, unlike the traditional Steve Forbes flat tax, this proposal would keep the deductions for mortgage interest, charitable contributions, and state and local taxes for those earning less than $500,000 (over 99% of taxpayers).  It would also offer a standard deduction of $12,500 per household members.  Consequently, a family of four earning $50,000 would have a zero tax liability.  Update: Phillip Klein reports that the employer tax exclusion for healthcare would remain until Obamacare is repealed.

Moreover, the entire system would preserve the option to remain under the current tax code.  As such, the 47% who have zero tax liability and the 29% who have a positive tax liability (as a result of the EITC and Additional Child Tax Credit), would have no incentive to move to the flat tax.  Accordingly, there would be two shortcomings to this plan:

1)      There would be no broadening of the tax base.

2)      Any static score of its effect on revenues would be disastrous because it keeps all of the low and middle income revenue the same, while drastically diminishing the revenue from higher income earners.  Although, the CBO wouldn’t be able to score this as a loss because the entire flat tax is optional.

3)      It keeps the market-distorting mortgage interest deduction.

The bottom line is that it is very difficult (politically) to broaden the tax base.  I would have liked a 15% flat tax with no deductions, a smaller standard deduction, and mandatory reform of EITC and ACTC (no opt out).  But that is politically untenable at this point.  At the very least, this plan will provide such an opportunity for economic growth that new taxpayers are created, and ultimately, revenues will increase.  Dynamic scoring is always a winner.  That was one of the big lessons of the Reagan years.  It will also eliminate most of the other market-distorting deductions and credits.  Finally, it is important to note that Perry plans to limit federal spending to 18% of GDP.  Restoring the federal government back to its proper role won’t require as much revenue as before.

Many of their periphery details of the tax plan are excellent:

  • A 20% flat corporate tax with credits only for R&D and capital investments.
  • Corporations would also get a one-time repatriation rate of 5.25%, while moving towards a territorial system in the long-run that will only tax in-country income.
  • Elimination of CapGains, dividends, and death taxes

All of this is super pro-growth.

Social Security

The details of the entire plan have not been released, and might not be clear until there is an actual piece of legislation, but Perry joins some of the other candidates (except Romney) in endorsing an option for private retirement accounts.  Also, state employees would be allowed to opt out of the system altogether, and create a county or state systems modeled after Galveston, Texas.

Another aspect of the plan is the elimination of taxes on benefits, even for current retirees.  Since 1983, the government has taxed the “benefits” of retirees who earn income, interest, and dividends with a graduated scale.  This has served as a perverse incentive against working beyond retirement.  It is also an unfair form of double taxation on 17 million retirees earning as little as $25-50,000 after retirement.

In terms of raising revenue, elimination of this tax would only be a minor loss.  Taxation of benefits raises about $24 billion, just 3% of the annual cost of OASDI.  This is an excellent provision of the economic plan.

Additionally, Perry would gradually raise the retirement age and limit the rate of growth of benefits to rich seniors.  As a conservative, I’m not so excited about means-testing something that everyone paid into, but it is a step in the right direction.

My only quibble with the plan is that he uses the Highway Trust Fund as a paradigm for protecting the integrity of a pay-as-you-go system.  As we’ve discussed in these pages, the Highway Trust Fund has been raided for mass transit projects and other pork, and is no longer a pay-as-you-go-system, as the federal gasoline tax is no longer sufficient to cover its expenses.

Medicare and Medicaid

For Medicare, Perry proposes a gradual increase in the eligibility age and a move towards free market options, in which the costs are defined and transparent.  There are many conservative free-market options out there, and it would have been nice for him to elaborate on them.  Then again, it’s hard to offer direct reforms to both third rails of politics in one shot.

For Medicaid, Perry offers a shoutout to what is becoming a growing consensus among conservatives; block granting Medicaid back to the states and letting them innovate.

Regulations

 

  • Repeal of Obamacare, Dodd-Frank, and Sarbanes-Oxley (in line with most other candidates)
  •  An immediate moratorium on all new and pending regulations (there are thousands in the pipeline)
  • Audit all regulations implemented after 2008 and determine if each one is affordable, effective, and if it does “more harm than its purported good”
  • Any future regulation would automatically sunset after 7 years, unless Congress votes to reauthorize it
  • Each regulatory agency would be given a ”regulatory budget” limiting the cost of its regulations that may be promulgated per year
  • The creation of a “simple and searchable online database of all federal regulations currently in force – including succinct summaries, all public comments, and all related cost-benefit analyses

As you can see, this plan will not only repeal regulations, but institute structural reform to preclude future onerous regulations.

Spending

Governor Perry is supporting the plan of congressional conservatives to pass a balanced budget amendment that contains a taxpayer protection.  He is also seeking to balance the budget by 2020 and limit spending to 18% of GDP.  He would cut $100 billion in non-defense discretionary spending during his first year in office.  Specifically, he proposes cuts and consolidations in the Department of Energy, elimination of Freddie and Fannie, and the repeal of the Davis-Bacon Act.

Perry is also proposing some structural reforms to the budget process.  He wants to make the annual concurrent budget resolution – which is currently non-binding – subject to the president’ signature.  This will force an automatic spending cap every year.

Some other proposals include:

  • An automatic protection against a government shutdown, which would set spending at the previous year’s level
  • Clamp down on the use of “supplemental spending bills” to abuse funding for emergencies
  • Eliminate baseline budgeting
  • Reform the CBO so it can engage in dynamic scoring
  • Impose Paygo on new federal programs.  There are currently 77 welfare programs because Congress doesn’t have the gumption to repeal one before instituting another.  Perry would require one program be eliminated before a new one is instituted.
  • Freeze federal civilian hiring and salaries until budget is balanced

Overall, while the tax plan has some excellent components and some ok ones, the spending plan is phenomenal.  It is truly heartwarming to see the RSC’s Cut, Cap, and balance plan – a pipe dream of a few conservatives in Congress – actually become major national policy.  I would just caution that a spending goal of 18% of GDP would require the elimination of several more cabinet-level departments.

It is refreshing to see the candidates begin to offer bold conservative solutions, instead of playing it safe against a weak and eminently vulnerable incumbent president.  Republicans must not seek power for power’s sake.  Perry’s Cut, Balance, and Grow plan is a prodigious model of what we should seek to achieve.

COMMENTS

  • texas214

    with any conversation at all regarding the ‘birther” issue? Is he desparate for the Trump endorsement?

    He had something good to say and it will be over-shadowed by the birther issue.

    • gekster

      What are you talking about.

    • izoneguy

      He likes Perry’s plan and says the interview was a non-issue.

      And for you Cain fans….. Cain radio spots in all 50 states
      being played on Rush’s show. He said he would take Herb’s
      money but it did not mean he supported 999 or 909 or is 99 now?
      Capitalism at work.

      • libdestroyer

        Glad Perry FINALLY released his economic plan. Now that the campaign is nearly over.

        Q: What would keep Cain’s 9-9-9 from becoming 18-18-18-?
        A: What would keep Perry’s 20% flat tax from becoming 40%?

        Hmm… I guess that was a stupid argument to make all along huh?

        • Aaron Gardner

          You know, before you were banned last time?

          • texas214

            that the very next lead on RS was Erick taking on the exact subject. Aaron it’s time you started thinking for yourself, not defending your preferred candidate or position with logic.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Follow the little blue lines.

          • texas214

            I didn’t think your comment was appropriate for my post………..and it wasn’t, because it was intended. My fault.

          • Aaron Gardner

            I am the guy still supporting Perry rather than flipping to whichever candidate is popular in the polls this week.

            I’ll have you know, I support Gov. Perry because I agree with his policies. I defend him because I have thought about the effects of his policies on the nation.

            Next time you want to get bent out of shape over a comment of mine, try to do so without implying that I am some mindless follower.

            M’kay?

          • libdestroyer

            if he’s the nominee. I’m a Cain supporter but I’m not out to trash Perry as much as defend Cain’s positions that you people keep misconstruing.

            and you know you’re losing an argument when you start name calling
            “troll”?

          • williamjameson

            considering you were first to post. The media are fabricating the birther story beyond the actual comments while they promote Romney as presidential. I like both Cain and Perry and won’t decide till I see more debates because the most 2 recent debates only proved Romney isn’t presidential considering he lies frequently and can’t maintain a position.

          • libdestroyer

            I don’t even know the meaning of “troll”

        • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

          I am amazed out how easily people dismiss this aspect of the Cain plan.

          Look if his plan was 999
          9% Income Tax
          9% Capital Gains
          9%Corporate Income Tax
          I would be all over loving it. Yes it could be changed and no it isn’t ideal but it takes existing taxes and flattens and simplifies them..

          His 999 adds a NEW TAX and a NEW IRS bureaucracy to manage it.

          The problem is that it is a new tax, a never been done at the federal level tax.

          • creinstein

            Herman Cains new tax system, 999 would reduce the size of the IRS significantly. No more loopholes, a simplified process, and one sizee fits all.

            The IRS would lose personnel by the droves

          • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

            Even if the plan flattened everything and dumped the loopholes it would only last until the next big business sycophant or big socialist landed on Penn Ave to start screwing it up again, right?

            Difference this time would be the new tax.
            A national sales tax is a hard sell to get started. Easy to change or graduate later.

            So flatten everything sure but no new tax.

            Because if we give them the new tax then when that next socialist gets in the White House he will have one more tax to graduate, loophole or increase. AND HE WILL GET IN THE WHITE HOUSE. Let’s live in reality please.

            The easiest way to prevent that tomorrow is to deny the new tax today.

            Why would we give them a wet dream now for a TEMPORARY reduction/simplification?

        • carolynr

          Sometimes it is better to get the last word in…that is the one people remember the most.

          • carolynr

            Talk about a Grand Slam…Perry did it. OK…so the guy is not as smooth as Mitty…but we know where we stand. This is a great plan and it addresses everything. I agree with the poster above, concerning the Five…wherein Perino has an axe to grind because of being a Bushie and Beckel is a Lib. To make the statement that I will file two tax returns in DUMBER THAN DUMB. Secondly, it is not to hard to figure out which one the majority will pick. Oh…there will be the companies that want to hold onto the current form…but…sooner or later they will figure out that they would be better off with Perry’s plan…rather than paying all those high priced attorneys and tax accountants. In other words…their bottom line will increase.

            We’ve all read the plan…I love it. However…Perry did something else that no one else did. Bear with me. If we cut too much too quickly (Ron Paul) we throw ourselves into another recession not to mention…we don’t have a military with Paul. If we cut too much…we also have to look at recession. What we have with Perry is something to take up the slack during the hiatus of waiting for the MEGA revenues to come it. IT’S HIS ENERGY PLAN. It is a jobs plan that takes place IMMEDIATELY and would act as a subsidy for the shortfall in the budget. Our jobs and the lower costs on EVERYTHING…would plug the budget shortfall until the mega bucks came in, via his Cut, Cap and Grow Plan.

            Perry is our Reagan. He’s the ONLY ONE that has the guts to tell it like it is and he is a leader.

            BTW…pls check out Romney’s latest flip flop in Ohio. If he is elected…we’re still in the Yo.Yo government…quicksand.

            Oh…btw…I don’t get paid to blog for anyone…I just like a principled candidate.

          • carolynr

            Well…well, they finally had to give Perry an interview. FINALLY. However, when you are watching these people…look at who they preview first. Example. The news of the day…a tax plan. Who did Cavuto spotlight…as if he doesn’t appear every other day….Ron Paul. Why…because he brought in money. Well, Perry led the pack with contributions in the third quarter…I didn’t see Cavuto running after him for an interview. No…Roger Ailes gave them their marching orders…he wants an Indies so he can live down another network’s accusation that they are not a real news organization. So, Perry is a no no. Why…HE IS CONSERVATIVE. Look at the way the questions were asked of Perry. It’s as if Cavuto took a page from Chris Wallace with “Are you a Flake”. Perry did fine in the interview…but Cavuto was not at all happy the man was on the program and even played some of Ron Paul’s interview. Neil…We ain’t interested in Ron Paul. Secondly…it was not on the regular Fox Channel…it was on Fox Business…which …WHEN DEMANDED…YOU PAY FOR. So both Cavuto and Dobbs both couched their questions to allow the audience to draw a negative opinion. Dobbs got his A Team to do the same thing…but at the end of the panel interview, they were giving Perry points for his plan.

            Hannity…Mr. Ronald Reagan…I am A True Conservative…is still leaning towards Cain. Cain, IMO…does not have the stature to be president. I like Herman…but not now. So Hannity uses Luntz to bolster his argument. Again…we have Norquist touting this thing…and no…it’s not good enough…Herman’s 999 is easy to understand….HUH? Do I get an empowerment card when I go grocery shopping? Where is that a JOBS Plan? Will it pass Congress…Nope. So…stop talking about something that won’t happen…999. It is as stupid as the birther issue. He’s in..we can’t change it…let’s get him out in 2012.

          • Scope

            I’ve been weaning myself off of Fox, mainly because of their anti-Perry commentary across every one of their hosts, and most guests. When I read the story about Wallace and Baier planning their attacks on Perry in the last Fox debate, that was enough for me. Wallace lost me long ago, and I find David Gregory to be more tolerable than Wallace’s attacks on every R candidate he has on on Sunday morning. At least with Gregory, I expect anti-R sentiment.

            I did turn on Fox at 4 yesterday, thinking it was the day Perry put out his economic plan, and that surely Cavuto would open his segment with Perry, or at least he would talk about Perry’s plan. When he brought Ron Paul on, again for the 100th time, I was assured once again that the fix is in at Fox, and they will paint Perry as badly as they can to help their Romney agenda.

            The only quibble with your comment would be that Hannity is in the bag for Romney, not Cain. He is a part of the Fox plan to tout Cain in an effort to destroy Perry. Once they succeed in getting Perry out (they won’t) then they will turn their guns on Cain. Some like Krauthammer, Hume, Wallace and a few others have already begun their move away from Cain, as he is now out polling their hero Romney in some cases.

            Fox is playing a very dangerous game with their attempts to sway the electorate toward their chosen candidate, and to split the conservatives to give Romney the win. When President Perry takes the reins, I hope he makes every one of the Fox hosts crawl on broken glass to get any interviews with him, and when their knees are bloodied, cancel the interview at the very last minute.

            Pretty damn sad when you can count on the leftist MSM to be more fair and balanced with the GOP candidates. At least they are equal opportunity offenders and don’t play favorites.

          • tyman

            CNN gave Perry’s tax plan better treatment than Fox! It was about 1 o’clock and I thought, “Goodness, I really am tired”. But, sure enough Ari Fleischer was talking about the plan and saying good things about it without being talked down.

            Meanwhile, Sean Hannity had Michele Bachmann on who thanked Gov. Perry for his endorsement of her plan. Seriously? She said that imitation was the sincerest form of flattery. So phony.

            The fact that they have her on is ridiculous. We KNOW that she will not be the nominee…she’s not news.

            Hannity is definitely for Romney. All you have to do is listen to his show for about 5 minutes and it’s obvious. Then again, I’ve never liked Hannity as a talk show host. He can’t debate with someone who disagrees, so he insults them and cuts them off. Talk about a bad debater…his only job is to talk on the radio.

            I think Fox is going to be sorry they’re ignoring the conservative audience. Oh, I went to the Fox News message board about Perry’s tax plan: I thought I was reading the Huffing and Puffington Post.

          • Scope

            I haven’t heard much from him as his show was taken off my Fox radio station, and some local guys took that slot over. I rarely ever watched his TV show as I don’t need to hear Beckel, Rove and Morris talk their trash, as regulars on his show.

            When Hannity was on my radio station, I listened to some libs call in, and Hannity was never able to correct them or their liberal policies, because I really don’t believe he is the conservative he claims to be. He is a NY Republican at best. I also never believed him to be the brightest bulb in the box. There were so many times that I could have argued for conservative values, and against liberals views and values, he totally frustrated me with his lack of ability to do so. When he very vehemently states that he is a Reagan conservative, I always wonder if he is trying to convince himself more than anyone else.

          • tyman

            Scope,

            Great minds must think alike. I had typed that “Hannity can’t argue his way out of a paper bag”, but changed it.

            I’ve always thought the same thing: Sean doesn’t really espouse all that he says.

            And, like you, I don’t like to hear Beckel and all of the other partisan hacks, especially on a supposed conservative’s show that gives them a wider audience than they would have otherwise.

            You may not have agreed with Allen Colmes, but there were so many times he cleaned Hannity’s clock in debates on that show.

            By the way, I’m listening to a replay of Mark Levin’s show from last night and he is going on about how great Perry’s plan is.

          • onemovoter

            And have started doing more of my own research and cruising places online for better info and opinions. I even hit some liberal sites just to see if there is any news or rumors I might have missed.

            I completely agree though on Hannity, All he can do is repeat talking points and not figure out how to effectively argue conservatism.

            The biggest gripe I have with Hannity is when he says he’s all for freedom in one breath, but then advocates for a bunch of social conservative positions that limit people’s freedom.

            I’ve also stopped watching O’Reilly for the most part because of his snobbish attitude and rudeness.

          • tyman

            Why does he need guests if he can answer his own question?

          • Common_Cents

            he is a good basic cheerleader for newer conservatives, not real appeal for well read RS types.

            start ripping on Hannity meanwhile we got hundreds of outright flaming liberals on air spewing nothing but propaganda to combat.

          • circlegranch

            As well noted here, Perry raises a boatload of money announced 2 wks ago. Did he get any interviews? Nah, they just reported that it must be fluke.

            Today on his radio show he and Best Bud Dick Morris took turns with digs and jabs. Tonight, he’s hosting no other than Herman Cain and Michelle Malkin. With Romney showing well in polls today that could be a bit uncomfortable for Herman.

            That’s o.k. There’s alot of Perry supporters that will stick with him in spite of the Hannity’s. We recognize character when we see it. We’ll remember Sean’s treatment of him and the bias and deliberate effort to discredit every thing he’s ever said or done. We’ll remember and we won’t listen or watch or buy books or go to his events. His viewing and listening audience can make him very insignificant, just like he’s set out to do with a honorable man that got into this simply to do his part to help the country. Valor is a good way to describe it. All that’s lost on Hannity and the hacks at Fox.

            I can much easier tolerate unfair attacks coming from MSNBC or CNN or the majority of talk radio than I can hearing it from so-called conservatives that hold out as being something they are not. At least I expect it from the liberal media. It’s very difficult to hear from “The Most Trusted Name in News”.

          • pttx333

            “fair and balanced” moniker no long applies with Fox and hasn’t for ever so long. The only time I’ve watched them was last night when Bill O. had Perry on for the interview – then I switched channels. It has become beyond apparent that they can’t stand Perry and make sleight-of-hand remarks about him. How is that fair and balanced? It doesn’t speak highly of those folks, and they will rue the day that they decided to travel down this road they have chosen.

          • Doc Holliday

            it is a freaking primary, chill a bit. Hannity has a dislike of OBAMA. He wants us to nominate a candidate who will beat Obama. Perry has to earn our respect, those who are already gaga over Perry are not that large a group.

    • supergirl2911

      With that comment? Please post a response and citation to your comment which looks like an obvious distraction from the article and the topic.

    • papabear

      Allen West has the answer for this “charge”.

      Seriously, I am not a Perry fan. He has many legitimate issues. Bitherism is not one of them!

    • davidleigh

      You know, liberals ALWAYS make an issue of every adjective a conservative speaks.

      The “birther” comments meant nothing. Big deal. Look at the Obama/Pelosi record, they’re the ones who shuold be very nervouse, not conservatives unless Romeny gets the nod. He’s so squeaky-nice.

      I wish we had the excitement and confidence we had when Reagan ran in 1984 but it’s more like 1980. In the end the truth about Kenya and Hawaii will be exposed.

      Perry has done nothing wrong. I like some of his tax plan and hope with tweaking they get it just right. But my real hope s that we just take the gloves off for once and start knocking heads in the media and with the democrats themselves. Remember guys, in a real fistfight on the playground a liberal wouldn’t want to fight you and me. They’re cowards. And, based on all they’ve done with OCCUPY (rape, sodomy, defacation, violent, rascist threats, killing business, squatting), they should get their clocks cleaned. When are the real gentlemen going to come out and confront them? LOUDLY.

  • bzip

    Oh my goodness. Perry unlocked the door to freedom. There is a huge amount of reform in this cut, cap and growth plan. It is extremely refreshing to see something that tackles so much. It is well thought out.

    Perry is really serious, serious about reform and growth. Reminds me much of Ryan’s bold plan. I look forward reading the reviews and discussion. There is lot to digest.

    That is Perry, a serious reforming conservative with a great vision. I already loved his engery plan now the cut, cap and growth package is even better than what I had expected.

    • izoneguy

      Contrast that to Romney – Obama-Light

    • papabear

      There is only one part that worries me. When do we sunset the old tax code!!

      I wish this had been ready when he “launched”!!

      • libdestroyer

        I guess that’s why he’s ahead of Perry Nationally.

  • Death_of_the_Donkey

    unless you assume some absurd level of growth (which is unlikely to say the least), the Perry plan would fall far short of even the 18% spending cap he proposes. Also, his plan leaves a gaping hole (perhaps this will be explained later) of how he intends to get to private accounts in social security with even less revenues. I am also far less convinced than many here on the supply side benefits to the US economy of dramatically lowering taxes on the investor class when the increasingly globalized world creates an entirely different underlying fundamental from when Reagan succeeded with his supply side plan in the early 80s.

    • aesthete

      Though it is a good plan that I would like to see implemented, some of its estimates are… idealistic. Assumed growth rates are highly optimistic, and thus it is unlikely that revenue targets will be met. This is also the case with his energy plan.

      However, it is a good conservative plan that I would love to see implemented in its entirety.

    • YnotNOW

      I would have thought that, with the world-wide mobility of capital, that a competitive tax and regulatory treatment of gains would be even more important, to attract and retain investment domestically. Would like to hear your rationale that I may not have thought of. It just sounds counter-intuitive.

  • sunshinek67

    that says he stepped on his message. This guy is our conservative answer~

    • texas214

      they won’t have anything to say.

      • sunshinek67

        the microscope, expected. Like I said, and you should know if truly from Texas, then you know that when Governor Perry sneezes wrong it is blown over 261,231.71 square miles of land. We have a small but powerful relentless left leaning Texas media that exists within our great State. But Perry still wins everytime nevertheless.

        Rush’s 15 million audience today is getting a very enthusiastic response from the Talkmeister himself. He is in overdrive. It’s all about the plan today folks~

  • Tbone

    know what they are doing. No wonder the guy won 3 elections for governor.

  • izoneguy

    Rush likes Perry’s plan

    Club for Growth supports Perry economic plan, knocks Romney

    Chocola, a former Republican congressman from Indiana, criticized Mitt Romney for not embracing similar reforms. ?I continue to be disappointed that Gov. Romney has yet to embrace a flat or fair tax,? he said. ?He would be wise to avoid using class warfare when comparing his current proposals to those of Gov. Perry or Herman Cain. The Club for Growth is looking for bold leadership on tax reform from the Republican nominee ? not demagoguery or platitudes.?

    • gekster

      I heard him say it too.
      The he played Debbie Washername saying it would create a deficit.
      I wonder if she knows what she is saying.

      • izoneguy

        She just says the opposite of people that know what they are talking about.

        • libdestroyer

          +100

  • Tbone

    because that is the maximum IQ of anyone who thinks his “Plan” is anywhere close to being better than Perry’s.

    • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

      Primo stayed up all night getting ready. Or was that my SAT.

    • mbauer

      Comments like this make me not want to associate with Perry supporters, and less likely to vote for him.

      If he is going to be a cult of personality… I know where that road leads, and I’ll have none of it.

      • avagreen

        have already made up your mind anyway.
        You seem to be looking for bullets to shoot at Perry, rather than any facts that might contradict your already formed opinion.

        He hardly has a “cult of personality” here……everything is backed up by facts.
        Who is the guy/girl you are promoting, and why? Just curious.

        Not hardly a non-partisan view from a non-partisan. Ya know?

        • libdestroyer

          I like Cain’s plan. I like Perry’s plan. They are both radical steps to change our current taxation system. Both plans are flawed but we aren’t looking for perfection (at least we shoudn’t be)

          The reason I like Cain over Perry is that Cain seems to be more optimistic and frankly, more charismatic.

        • mbauer

          If you asked me, I’d tell you I’m leaning towards Gingrich. I’d have no problem voting for him, Cain, Perry, or Romney against Obama on election day. I’m not out promoting anyone specifically yet. I enjoy watching how each one handles themselves and the details of their respective paths forward.

          I don’t think I shot a bullet at Perry by calling BS on tbone’s comment. The more specific proposals he puts out the more excited I get about him.

          It’s not a fact to say that I have a certain IQ if I think a certain way.

          Despite all that, you follow up accusing me of being subversive. That’s why I think their is a cult of personality problem.

      • Tbone

        You can vote for him or Obama, take your pick.

        • gunslingr45

          but are you comparing Cain to Obumber? Just want to be straight on this.

          “For those who have fought for it, Freedom has a taste the protected will never know” IN GOD WE TRUST

          • Tbone

            that he would eventually have to vote for.

            as for Cain, I see a rightwing, white guilt cult forming for Cain similar to the left white guilt cult that supported Obama. Both ignoring the fact that neither is qualified for office.

        • mbauer

          who just learned it was cool to be a bully.

          And, in case you missed it, their is a primary coming up in which Obama is not on the ballot. That’s what this discussion is about. Would you prefer we get rid of those?

      • Russ Martin

        “Lighten up, Francis”

      • reggie182

        It leads to self-defeating delusion. An unwillingness to realize any flaws about one’s candidate.

        I saw it with Palin, and I believe I’m seeing it with Perry.

        • davesinsanantonio

          And not Mittens???

          Or, Cainai???

          Or, Bachwoman???

          Or, any of the others???

          How selective of you!

    • uhangtight

      don’t like perry…

      and do not want a Texan in the white house..

      he can coil all he wants, he can copy all of Newt’s plans all he wants. He is a desperate politician wanting to get elected.

      Perry = Romney
      Romney = Perry

      Wake up folks.. Southern Democrat is a Northeastern Republican.
      Perry is SD … LBJ like.. even.

      • tjms

        happen to be an independent and disagree with you.

        • windwaker24

          nt

          • carolina

            of us.

      • http://whattoreadtoday.blogspot.com/ Paula

        “Perry is SD ? LBJ like.. even.

        I mean, they both came from humble backgrounds and defied the odds to become successful Americans…

      • texabama

        of having an open mind. Anyone who says they do not want “a Texan in the White House” is telling you that the candidate doesn’t matter. It’s not about policies or personality, but some internal problem you have with Texans. Please be considerate and don’t lecture us about it.

        • wennejunk

          I know Fantasy Football coaches who pick their teams this way

          Gotta have ‘Nebraska’ or ‘Tennessee’ , etc, but will never, ever, have someone on their team from FSU or UT, etc

          I appreciate their loyalty and narrow-minded approach (allows me to dominate them during the season)….except when we are (theoretically) on the same election team.

          Anyone who would avoid Perry because he is a Texan is a moron, mouth-breather, oxygen-thief, etc

      • bzip

        Well everyone is entitled to their opinion but you you can count be as disagreeing with you.

        Perry = Strong True Proven Conservative Republican
        Romney = Strong True Proven Liberal Republican

        Note the key words: proven, conservative.
        Hope that isn’t too hard to figure out :-) .

    • Finrod

      It seems your IQ is in the bottom 20%, since you have no substance.

      Please explain to me how a 20 percent flat tax that’s optional will raise 20 percent of GDP in tax revenue, ever. It’s just not possible.

    • n2sooners

      It doesn’t close any loopholes, it decreases revenues (not that reductions are bad, just that if we make a real change we should start with something as revenue neutral as possible), and it does nothing to reduce paperwork. People would just have one more way to calculate their taxes before picking the one that benefits them the most. It doesn’t reduce the tax code, it increases it (not by a lot, but it is just an addition to the current system).

      That isn’t to say I don’t like the idea of what he proposed, just that leaving the old code in place makes any additions meaningless. Also, I don’t think I would have any deductions except personal deductions. And I would have some type of tax credit for low income families to encourage taking low paying jobs rather than depend on welfare or riding unemployment as long as possible. Something that tapers up as you work some meaningful hours then tapers down as you head out of poverty.

      But anyway, since Cain’s plan scraps the old tax code and Perry’s plan keeps it, Cain’s is superior no matter it’s faults.

      • bzip

        Boy, no wonder we have the politician we do. First, do you honestly think adding a new national sales tax that morphs into a VAT is going to be good for us, think of the liberal dreams that are taking place with that idea.

        Second, did you ever hear of needing a transition step or do you think we can just go from night and day over night with removing the old and bringing in the new.

        Third, Perry’s plan takes away all the dem arguments by being hybrid plan. In addition, Perry’s plan deals not only with Tax reform but entitlement reform – you know the major diving force behind our debt.

        I suggest looking at some of the review the latest one from:
        The revenue and GDP impact of the Perry flat tax plan ? now with actual numbers!

        …”Bottom line: If a President Perry could balance the federal budget by 2020 and cap spending at 18 percent of GDP ? and if you buy the JDA analysis ? the result would be a more financially stable America and a richer America than the current economic and budgetary trajectory would indicate.”

        http://blog.american.com/2011/10/the-revenue-and-gdp-impact-of-the-perry-flat-tax-plan-now-with-actual-numbers/

      • kestrel

        …specifically for corporations. This is exactly what Paul Ryan has been advocating — lowering the corporate tax rate while broadening the tax base. Perry’s plan reduces the corporate rate from 35% to 20% in exchange for eliminating the corporate loopholes that enable politically favored companies like GE to pay no taxes whatsoever year after year.

        See here (subtitled, “Reordering how Washington Does Business”) on page 2:
        http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/589352/201110261023/Rick-Perry-flat-tax-text.htm

  • avagreen

    Be wary: Texas rattlers are slow to coil, give plenty of warning and then…..
    ……strike like the devil when they find their target.

    PERRY 2012!!!

    • lineholder

      But if Perry doesn’t get his intensity level up relatively soon, that strike of a rattler could be more like the sting of a mosquito

      http://www.gallup.com/poll/election.aspx

      His intensity level is lower than Santorum’s!

      • avagreen

        haven’t you been reading who were the leading poll leaders at this time in the last election?
        Hillary, Huckabee, Thompson, et al.

        Find another factor to grinch about. This ain’t it.

        • lineholder

          Go look at the favorables vs. favorables. If I had to take a guess, his ballot support right now is coming from people who are saying “Well, he has the money and the experience”, and that’s about it.

          If he can change that, he’s still in the race.

          • lineholder

            /

      • avagreen

        somewhere during this time.

        For the first time, Clinton (N.Y.) is drawing support from a majority of Democrats — and has opened up a lead of 33 percentage points over Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.). Her popularity, the poll suggests, is being driven by her strength on key issues and a growing perception among voters that she would best represent change.
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/02/AR2007100202365.html

        • lineholder

          If Perry’s supporters don’t care that his intensity level is low and his favorables vs. unfavorables aren’t that great, that’s fine.

          However, the elections in 2010 weren’t exactly “typical”, and there’s no reason at this point to believe that the elections in 2012 will follow the pattern of historical status quo either.

          This is one election in which intensity of support could make a big difference.

      • tngal

        they’d be shouting them from the rooftops and tweeting them to unknowns in outer mongolia.

        Yes poll numbers show a certain group of people during a short time span. BUT– the key takeaway…

        Polls don’t matter ….unless its your candidate that’s on top. I promise if their candidate had Cain’s numbers they would pee all over themselves.

        When Perry’s numbers rise, and honestly they have to, because they can’t get much worse, watch them start noticing the polls. Watch the reaction. Not just here but at other sites. “Perry’s rising! He’s moving up!! He broke 8 percent, he’s charging now ! And on and on till next November.

        I like polls because they do translate into dollars so I hope herman can keep up the mo for awhile.

        • lineholder

          But one of the things that I’ve been noticing lately is that there are a lot of people who seem to think this will follow historical status quo patterns of what has taken place during election seasons in the past.

          That isn’t necessarily the case. Past isn’t always prelude. Times change. The political environment has definitely changed during the past two years.

          I do think that whoever our nominee turns out to be will have to be the kind of person who can inspire enthusiasm. I also think the intensity factor could play a significant role in beating Obama.

          It definitely doesn’t hurt, that’s for sure.

          • davesinsanantonio

            of anti-Obummerism will be sufficient to pull our guy through, no matter who it is,

            So, the question then is, who will actually govern better (by better I mean more in line with the Constitution and free market economics.)

            That person should be our candidate, because “electibility” will be taken care of by the rotten economy and other freedom stealing policies of the current regime.

      • Tbone

        has a lower intensity than Santorum.

        • lineholder

          The expectations for Perry were high (perhaps unrealistically so) before he even got into the race. No offense, but he hasn’t lived up to the “hype” (and I’m not sure anyone could have, to be honest with you).

          But what these polls show is that the level of enthusiasm Perry inspires in people is low. Given the general mood of the electorate, and the fact that a significant portion of our population believes we are in a decline, doesn’t it make sense that they would be looking for a bit inspiration in the candidate they back this time around?

          We’ll see how it goes. It could be that Perry could turn this around, I don’t know.

          • avagreen

            Your opinion. That’s the best that can be said of what you are saying. And, as with everyone knows…………..yada, yada, yada…..everyone has one.

            However, when presented with “facts” of past polls at this time, you simply (like Cain) just choose to bat them away as somehow not being germane, and then ignore.

            Facts: 1)Perry entered the race late and wasn’t sure he was up to it because of his recent back surgery, which was evidenced in his lackluster performance in the first few debates. (And, only a Perry fan would have noticed the difference between the man we know and the man in the first few debates. Obviously you don’t fit into that category).

            2) Fact: Perry has had less time to prepare for his candidacy (because of his delayed decision making as mentioned above) and is just now getting to the nutz and boltz of his platform, while also sitting back, and watching the weather in this current three-ring circus as his pattern.

            3)Fact: Perry’s back is now fully recovered
            Perry, who underwent back surgery in late June, said Friday he had been sleeping better, in part because he had started running for exercise again.
            http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/perry-backs-wife-s-rough-month-campaign-comment-1.3245117

            4) Fact: He’s now changed his team, which will be presenting a difference of approach in the future.

            5) Fact: Bachmann’s key aides have joined Perry’s team. (do they know something you don’t?)
            http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20124047-503544/key-aide-leaves-bachmann-for-perry-in-mass-exodus-of-n.h-campaign-staff/

            7) Fact: Liberals and RINOs hate him. There’s gotta be a reason for that.

            8) Fact: Do I think this will dissuade you from cheap shots at Perry?
            No

            9) Fact: Does that make your “opinion” more correct than the “facts” presented above?
            No.

            10)Fact: Am I posting this for your benefit?
            No. I’m posting it for those that are lurkers.

          • avagreen

            yes, he entered the race and received much hype because he was a new figure and people are looking for heroes, sortuv like the Cain worship at present.

            It was also reported and expected that he would fall from that pinnacle. Not news.

            It was also expected that he would be faced with the outright lie campaign by both liberals and RINOs that is a foot right now, such as the redunculous attempt to portray him as a “birther”, and all the lies about immigration, instate tutition, with no one doing the homework to find out otherwise.

            All I can say is that it has become apparent just who the RINOs are from the potshots being taken at Perry, men that I’ve lost a tremendous amount of respect for since my eyes being opened. As well as FOX.

            These people are desperate to keep him out of office. Again…………there’s gotta to be a reason for these folks to have to create a campaign of lies to keep someone from getting into office.

            It I were a bystander and was doing my homework, I would have to honestly ask myself this question.

            “Why?”

          • avagreen

            is CNN’s reporting that the PVC vaccine is being recommended for boys age 12 now, which isn’t really news, I guess.

            CNN also reports that the PVC vaccine is now mandatory for girls age 12 for both D.C. and Virginia. Wasn’t aware of that.

            So much for the flap about Perry’s actions on this in the past. Seems like he was just ahead of the curve. :)

          • lineholder

            If they were, it would be an issue because after the last three years citizens aren’t much enthused about having unilateral mandates dictated to them.

            The vaccine didn’t follow through in TX, and that’s what actually matters, but you can’t blame people for wondering “what if” and translating that to a national level.

            They do that with all the candidates.

          • avagreen

            ^^

          • lineholder

            !

          • avagreen

            ……..please explain.

            My point: Perry was ahead of the curve for pressing on the need for this vaccine.

            Your point: ________________?

          • lineholder

            that numerous efforts have been made to downplay the response by the general public to concerns that they have. Perhaps I read your comments, but the statement about “the flap for Perry’s actions in the past” hit me as one of these efforts.

            After the way Obama has acted, it isn’t as if the general public is going to be thrilled with the idea of having things mandated on them. And even though that wasn’t the end result in Perry’s case, it very easily could have been. So when they take that “what if” question and translate it to a national level, it’s fairly easy to understand what concerns they do have on these issue and why they have those concerns.

          • avagreen

            Considering the fact that there’s an opt-out for anyone that doesn’t want the vaccine, can you really still call it a mandate?

            No one is forced to do anything they don’t want to. If you don’t want your daughter to get the vaccine all you have to do is sign a piece of paper saying you don’t want it.

            AT ANY RATE, LET’S NOT GET CAUGHT UP ON THIS. IT’S AN OLD ISSUE. I WAS MERELY POINTING OUT THAT TWO OTHER STATES HAVE DONE THE SAME…

          • lineholder

            but it’s a matter of perception, avagreen, and what public perception is.

            But we’ll end this one now, I agree.

          • avagreen

            just a little bit late.

          • avagreen

            they started it late while Perry was already talking, and then ended it early before he’d even finished.

            CNN showed the entire spot. Sad isn’t it……that the supposedly “conservative” network is this stingy in covering a conservative candidate?

            Then, listened to Cavuto rim out and interrupt (continuously) the reporter that outed Biden with the ‘rape’ comment because Biden’s office is putting the reporter under “investigation” which then led into another spot where a reporter was talking at length about Obama’s appearnce somewhere yammering about his jobs bill. No interruption, just head nods, etc..

            What’s happened to Fox? Even Cavuto now?

          • bzip

            Oh Cavuto has some kind of love affair for Ron Paul. I would be shock if Cavuto even knew there was other candidates running for the nomination. The guy makes me sick.

          • avagreen

            as if he’s concerned. :/

            He’s having Perry on at 5P.M.

            I’ll put my hackles down and see how it goes.
            At least someone is having him on for an interview. Cavuto just got through with a telephone interview with Newt.

          • circlegranch

            As we remember in ’08, the media went to extremes to hide anything negative on Obama. Anybody that asked a simple, reasonable question was anything from unAmerican to a racist. This election is an odd turn of events. Fox goes out of its way to ignore Perry. It has to be a programming mandate coming from Ailes or maybe up to Murdoch. I guess they think we don’t notice because they make no effort to try and at least mask their bias. We know why the lib’s covered Obama, but what’s the motive to push one candidate now and not another? Isn’t Fair and Balanced supposed to be about reporting everything and letting the public decide?

            I just checked www.foxnews.com and there is absolutely not a word about Romney’s insult today to Gov Kasich in Ohio. When Mitt makes bad news, it doesn’t get reported. When Perry makes good news, they try so hard to bury it or discredit it. Example: at their website now there’s a byline: “Perry Pitches 20% Flat Tax” Below it–”Opinion: Rick Perry’s Tax Plan Would Be A Disaster” by Peter Morici, Fox News

            The only thing that can be done is to melt their emails and continue to let them know we’re watching and we don’t like what we see. Every morning I watch Morning Joe on MSNBC just to get a sense of what the day’s roll out will be from the WH. Mika sits there and receives text messages directly from the WH and then she scribbles notes to Joe as to what they want him to say. Somebody high up is pulling the same strings now at Fox. It’s remarkable. Every single host is on the same page—just like we’ve come to know and expect from MSNBC.

            Haley Barbour commented positively today on Perry’s plan but something he said during an interview with Inghram still bothers me. He says 80% of what will drive this primary election hasn’t come out yet. He knows something; who does he know it on?

            This determined effort to try and take Perry out is coming from some troubling directions; not just the GOP establishment but now an entire cable network.

            O’Reillly’s 2 part interview starting tonight and Krauthammer’s dissection of Perry’s answers will be telling.

          • bzip

            I agree with you about Fox, there is clearly a agenda. It is so obvious, I don’t see how anybody could not notice it.

            In regards to the Haley Barbour comment:
            .. He says 80% of what will drive this primary election hasn?t come out yet. He knows something; who does he know it on?

            I wonder if that has to do with some polling data that came out today suggesting that 80% of the voters haven’t decided. This race isn’t even close to being called or any real front runner by those stats.

            Anyway, the O’Reilly interview should be telling.

          • carolina

            NBC Nightly news even played the Fox clip of Rove bad mouthing Perry over the ‘birther’ issue, and then they showed a clip of Perry laughting about the ‘birther’ flap.
            Cain was right – folks need to get a sense of humor!
            However, NBC used this nonsense to avoid talking about Perry’s tax plan. Lamestream media remains LAME.

          • davesinsanantonio

            Maybe more so, because they still claim to be “fair and balanced”, and that they “report” and let us decide. What they are really doing is “deciding” what to report in a biased and un-fair way in order to effect the “decision” they have already made.

            I have quit watching Fox at all.

          • Tbone

            his mouth he sounds like Michele Bachmann with a hormone deficiency?

          • lineholder

            I know that it seems like I’m being ugly, Tbone. I’m not. I’m actually trying to be objective about this as it stands at the moment. It could change.

  • supergirl2911

    I think the plan looks great. I am not an economist but most people aren’t. This plan looks like a great balance between what is overly simplified in cains plan and overly verbose and insufficient in Romney’s. I think the plan addresses many fiscal issues our nation either deals with or is afraid to deal with and addresses them with clarity and brings to light some important factors in tax and economic growth. Some highlights:
    You can opt in to new tax code or stay with current plan (this leads me to Perry learned something valuable).
    It addresses regulatory reform. While Cain has said we need to solve the right problem, have the right people, and ask the right questions (paraphrase) HERE Perry’s plan lists 3 questions that regulations have to pass. It gives a plan for stopping and auditing current unnecessary regulations.
    The plan discusses topics like social security and tax deductions for mortgage interest and charitable contributions with solutions not scare tactics. It explains these things relative to the ripple economic impact changes create.

    I give the plan two thumbs up. Perry and team did very well.

    • clintonformccain

      You can opt in to new tax code or stay with current plan (this leads me to Perry learned something valuable).

      It shows that Perry is an experienced political leader and understands how to anticipate and blunt the opposition arguments. That’s how you get stuff enacted rather than just talking about it.

      That’s why I tend to favor political experience. Experience gives them the ability to instinctively understand the opponents arguments and structure proposals to cut the legs out from under them.

      For example, it will be very difficult to argue that Perry’s plan means poor people will pay higher taxes when a family of four earning $50,000 a year will pay zero.

      He’s taken the mortgage and charitable deductions off the table as ammunition. The Dems are left with the argument that the Republican plan will increase deficit spending. I really don’t think the Dems want the election to turn on a discussion of deficit spending.

      • Common_Cents

        EVERYONE needs to pay taxes no matter who. Heck, put it at 1%, but at least people need to be participating at some level.

        • lineholder

          and I’m below poverty level, mind you, I don’t like keeping positive tax liability provisions in place. That’s a wealth redistribution mechanism. Let it hit $0.00 and be done with it.

        • clintonformccain

          15% payroll tax, half paid by the employee, half by the employer.

          ———

          And just for the record… I’m not “cheering” for any tax plan. I don’t really have a dog in this hunt. I’ve accepted the fact that neither political party is interested in addressing my concerns. I’m “cheering” for the Republicans to beat Barack Obama. As I’ve said many times, I’d vote for Charles Manson over Obama, if that’s my choice. But, all things considered, it would be nice if the Republicans started thinking about winning elections instead of nominating people like Sharon Angle and telling Latinos that we want an electrictrified fences to zap brown people.

          • Doc Holliday

            “everyone is paying taxes”. That is not good enough, everyone is not paying income taxes.

            btw, hate your sig :)

          • acat

            due to the EITC because they didn’t make enough money….

            Mew

          • Doc Holliday

            they don’t get paid much. That EITC can buy a lot of cigs.

          • rightwingmom52

            about illegal immigrants who got a tax refund due to the EITC as well, or am I dreaming that one up?

          • acat

            about how the Social Security folks don’t do *any* checking to see whether the person they’re paying is here legally or not.

            As for EITC, I suppose it’s possible. I don’t know whether they do any checking on validity of SSN or TIN either.

            Mew

          • lineholder

            When I filed my taxes last year, I deliberately and intentionally did NOT file for EITC or the new Work Incentive tax credit. The IRS did it for me automatically. And since it was drafted into my account…there it was. I did call them and ask them if I could send it back. They told me no. So I donated it.

          • acat

            but yeah, the IRS is gonna do what they’re gonna do. I also do the direct deposit thing with my refund, on years I get a refund that is.

            If I recall correctly, there was an argument, around the time the EITC went in, that it would “encourage the people who don’t file 1040s to do so”.

            Mew

  • reggie182

    For good measure, here is the Gingrich plan

    http://tinyurl.com/3kh27bj

    I call for a Lincoln – Douglas style debate between Rick Perry and Newt Gingrich! I think it would be a great way to find out about not only those two candidates’ respective plans, but their philosophy regarding federal fiscal policy.

    We’d also know for sure just how much each one knows of what he talks about.

    A real win-win situation for the GOP.

    C’mon Newt, you asked Herman and he accepted. Ask Rick!

    • lineholder

      It’s being sponsored by the TEA Party. I’m under the impression that they’ve asked all four of the top candidates to participate, but I could wrong about that. For right now, it’s just Cain and Gingrich

      • reggie182

        The candidates should do a round-robin of L-D style debates.

      • reggie182

        The candidates should do a round-robin of L-D style debates.

        • lineholder

          When they allow themselves to be dictated by the constraints and types of questions asked in the debates we’ve seen lately (although the last was better than most), it gets in the way of allowing the general public to become familiar with what Repubs have to offer.

    • rightwingmom52

      here

      “We initially wanted a forum with all of the candidates,? O?Sullivan says. ?But when we heard Gingrich say he wanted a more serious debate, like the Lincoln?Douglas debates, we wanted to do that, especially since watching the recent superficial debates has been frustrating.?

      Organizing the event was relatively easy, he adds. ?We had a relationship with Herman Cain. He spoke at our tea-party event six months ago. We contacted him, asking if he was interested in a Lincoln?Douglas debate on entitlements. Then we got in touch with Speaker Gingrich.?

      I hope a station picks it up and airs it.

      • lineholder

        I was wrong in the impression I had. Hopefully, we’ll see this expanded. I like the idea of this type of debate.

        • lastgopinillinois

          in Houston Tx. At this point, no one in the news media has offered to air it.
          Originally, all of the candidates were invited to debate, but I am not sure if that was before or after they decided to change it to a L-D style debate format. At any rate, Cain and Gingrich are the only ones who responded favorably to the invite so far reportedly.
          I want to see this real bad, so I hope we will be able to at least see a video of it after it is over.

  • bzip

    Club for Growth supports Perry economic plan, knocks Romney
    http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/25/club-for-growth-supports-perry-economic-plan-knocks-romney/

    Perry introduces tax plan ? Obama campaign already on attack
    http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/25/perry-introduces-tax-plan-obama-campaign-already-on-attack/

    Perry?s Plan Will ?Jolt This Economy Out of Doldrums?
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/perrys-plan-will-jolt-this-economy-out-of-doldrums/

    Rick Perry unveils tax plan in bid to jump-start campaign
    http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-perry-economic-plan-20111025,0,3949493.story

    Dick Army
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/25/perry-says-plan-will-free-americans-from-lengthy-tax-code/

    “The governor’s plan is a very bold plan by way of comparison with anything else that’s out there, and I think it is possible that it could achieve the growth of the American economy and the job creation that would follow that growth,” Armey said. Armey is currently the chairman of FreedomWorks, a large conservative political group.

    Rick Perry flat tax plan wins support (Norquist said there wasn’t anything he didn?t like about Perry’s plan
    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66802.html

  • uhangtight

    This is eerily similar to Newt’s.. Plagiarize much??? Let me see just some little slight differences. Newt’s is 15% versus Perry’s 20% hmmmm
    corporate tax = perry 20% and newt 12.5%
    corporate deductions = Limited to R&D, 100% capital investment and Newt 100% capital investment

    deductions 12,500 perry and newt 10-12,000 adult and 1000 for every dependent..
    but of course newts has been out there for a long time.. and perry just came out with his…

    well..well.. well.

    • http://www.rightreality.wordpress.com andysmith

      Actually, it’s more along the lines of “my rhetoric and emptiness in terms of substance isn’t working anymore, so I actually need a plan and see if it sticks.”

    • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

      Policy proposals are not op-ed pieces.

    • Common_Cents

      There should also be a GOP site that compares all candidates positions side by side right down the line on each issue. Would be a great voter resource.

      This should also be for the general.

      • Doc Holliday

        whenever someone relies on their plan, I get suspect. It is like a guy who got an interview that answers questions by referring to his resume. I think Cain would be doing even better if he had not played up his plan so much. Perry kept telling others to wait for his plan, that is even worse. If these guys would get off the “plans” and just focus on why they should lead the free world AND why they are the true conservative, we might see someone come out of this ready to take Obama on.

        disclaimer- I don’t think your opinion is bad, in fact I think it is a good one. My commentary was based on what I see as people trying to humanize type on paper.

        • Common_Cents

          Yes, we do need written plans and positions on various issues. I want to have each candidate put down in writing where they stand and whatever plan they have.

          The second part is what you refer to, is, who is CAPABLE of executing their plan. That’s where debates, stumping, etc….comes in.

          • Doc Holliday

            I did not format my response that well, but my intention was to say there are two issues here.

            I think people are going too anal on plans, I mean, we will be lucky to get anyone in office who will slow down leviathan.

            I want

            1) someone who WILL stop Obama

            2) someone who will do all he can to cut government and spur the economy.

          • Common_Cents

            People need a little substance behind that in written plans and confidence in the person executing the plan.

            I ignore and glaze over and tune out when I hear the stupid general jobs jobs jobs soundbyte BS.

          • Doc Holliday

            A plan is something you use until you make contact. Sorry I stand by my original point, people are way too focused on plans and not the candidates. Some of the candidates are using their plans as a proxy for themselves, ie. Cain, Perry.

          • Doc Holliday

            to buttress his candidacy. Cain would be better off not talking about his plan all the time. In fact, Cain’s enemies in the party and outside the party are fixated on his plan, because they can’t seem to make contact against the man .

          • Doc Holliday

            since government does not create jobs. Only way it can help is to get out of the freaking way. And I do see the value of a plan in that it is like a resume, it shows what the prospect thinks we need to do and what he is willing to do.

          • acat

            Has a .. ring to it.

            Mew

          • davesinsanantonio

            can certainly destroy them, and make it harder for others to create them.

            That is why we need to elect a president and members of Congress, and others down ballot, who will reign in government and get out of the way of job creators, and job doers!

          • Doc Holliday

            .

    • lastgopinillinois

      It is also eerily similar to a tax plan that I had concocted myself several months ago on a governemnt reform wish list, except that in mine, I did not have an option to keep the old tax code. Whew, that things gotta go somehow !
      I wouldn’t be surprised if thousands of Americans out there haven’t sent in plans like this to their representatives in the past couple years.

      My take on Perry and Newts plans being similar is; Great minds think alike !

      • davesinsanantonio

        You opt to stay with the old system until it is to your advantage to switch. No problem!

        I plan to “put a pencil to it” every year. I will calculate it the old way, and then again the new way, and then submit the one that is to my advantage. Easy.

        • davesinsanantonio

          comment below. Hit the wrong “reply to” button, I guess.

  • ThePoliticalHat

    There are a few problematic areas of his flat tax proposal.

    The fact that you can choose the one that will minimize your taxes means that this is not revenue neutral, but that type of option would be necessary to pass since many people on the lower end would end up paying more, even with the three deductions listed. the problem is that many people have a good chunk of their income taxed at below 20%, even if their top marginal is above it. For example, my marginal top rate is above 20%, but under his plan I’d end up paying more then I do now. Take away the deductions and my federal income tax burden more then doubles.

    I do believe that we should eliminate the current code, but it needs to be phased out over a period of 10-20 years to prevent slamming those who made fiscal decisions based on the current code.

  • iidvbii

    Nuff said…

  • lineholder

    Mr. Horowitz, I can definitely see positives in Perry’s plan, although I would agree with you about the negatives you’ve mentioned under the “tax plan” heading of what you’ve written

    When you talk about the 47% who have zero tax liability and the 29% who have a positive tax liability, are these two separate demographic groups or is the 29% included in the 47%?

    Also, during times when Dems may have enough of power in Congress and the WH to do so, could the upper flat tax amount stated be increased?

    If I had my “druthers”, we’d eliminate those sections of our current tax code that are used by the left as a mechanism for wealth redistribution.

    • clintonformccain

      And, there is no wage earner who is not taxed under Perry’s plan. There’s the 15% payroll tax for SS and Medicare, half paid by the employer, half from withholding. That does not go away, at least until their is major entitlement reform.

      • lineholder

        second question as well?

        • clintonformccain

          It’s harder with a flat tax because they can’t hide it as easily. But, of course, they can raise taxes if they have 60 votes in the Senate

          • lineholder

            I suspected as much, because that’s likely to be true in all cases, isn’t it? But I was asking to get some clarification, so thank you.

            There are things about this plan that I definitely like. I just want our old system dead and gone. Going hybrid…I’ll have to think about that one.

          • bzip

            I think it is a good way to transition to the flat tax and it keeps the dem’s argument about the poor go away.

          • lineholder

            I don’t want us to get stuck in that transitional phase with two separate tax codes, because it’s all too likely that Dems would use the revenues from one portion to feed into the wealth redistribution capabilities of the other system.

            If we’re ever going to get back to independence from government and self-reliance (as least to a greater extent than we are), then the wealth distribution potential of our current tax code needs to go.

            Plus, I have questions about adequate budgetary projection analysis and how consistent it might be with two systems.

            Believe it or not, there are actually a few things about taxing consumption that I like better than taxing income.

            It’s just something to think through.

    • http://redmeatconservative.blogspot.com/ Daniel Horowitz

      No-their not separate groups; it’s 47% out of 100 and 29% out of 100. In other words, almost 2/3rds of those who don’t pay income taxes have a negative tax liability.

      In regards to future Congress- look that is a threat with any reform plan. The bottom line is the same way it is politically difficult, although not impossible, for libs to raise taxes under the current system, they will do it under any system.

      • lineholder

        I’d suspected both things to be true, but just wasn’t sure. But I do have another question down thread.

  • bonnman

    But I think he’ll need to focus on one single aspect of the plan that will create jobs. Jobs are the number one issue on everyone’s mind and I don’t see a clear message here that spells that out to people.

    • supergirl2911

      he can tie it to job creation.

      I think some people want a leader to say I will create jobs doing….

      However, Perry has fostered an environment in Texas which has created jobs. Did he do it alone, no, but that does not mean he doesn’t get any credit.

      About that specific thing:

      The government does not create jobs. When the government creates jobs it is paid for by taxes. We are falling for a liberal media talking point. The president, the governor, congress, do not create jobs.
      The government does not have any money that it did not take from someone else. They are not spending their money. They are spending ‘our’ money.

      • bonnman

        as to how is plan will help create jobs. Right now the plan itself doesn’t show that, it’ll be up to Perry to communicate that direction.

        I’m familiar with the “government does not create jobs” line but its an absolute false talking point. The DOD alone employs about 3 million people and the aerospace companies in and around Houston are very grateful for NASA and the local business it provides. The government 1) directly creates jobs and 2) impacts the environment for job creation. The question though is, should government be responsible for job creation? It takes some tricky logical gymnastics for Perry to say look at my job creation history in Texas and btw the government doesn’t create jobs.

  • bzip

    Interesting take on Perry’s Cut, Cap and Growth Plan;

    How Rick Perry’s Flat-Tax Plan Would Accelerate Health Reform
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/10/25/how-rick-perrys-flat-tax-plan-would-accelerate-health-reform/

    Perry?s tax plan is good news for real health-care reform
    http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2011/10/25/perrys-tax-plan-is-good-news-for-real-health-care-reform/

  • craigbardo

    Club for Growth, Arthur Laffer and Stephen Moore aren’t “conservative?” Rush isn’t “conservative?”

    So is Horowitz definitively conservative on economic and tax policy?

    Perhaps “A Conservative’s Look . . .” or better still, “One Conservative’s Look . . .”

    I look forward to the debate. I personally favor a transparent consumption tax that puts us back in control, not politicians desire to spend. A flat tax is a huge step in the right direction, 999 is a bigger better step and the “fair tax” is best.

    At least we’re having a conversation about the right issues for a change – not whether but how to scrap the current tax code.

    • lineholder

      a serious conversation about getting rid of our old tax code is extremely advantageous to our country right now.

      • earlgrey

        I need one everyday to get me going.

        It seems like there are a lot of conservatives that are wringing their hands and saying we are doomed and headed off the cliff. LIke a car accident I feel like I have to watch the whole thing go down in full detail.

        I hope we can right the ship, but it still seems like we are spending too much time on the wrong issues.

        • lineholder

          I don’t know if it will come to pass, and I guess none of us can know that for certain, but at least we do have candidates in this race who are taking the bull by the horns, so to speak, and challenging some of the things like our tax code that have been bogging us down for many years. I think it is great!

  • Common_Cents

    They are saying people will have to two their returns twice to see if they’ll file the old way or on Perry’s plan.

    When Perry said its a choice, did he mean a choice to replace the current system or an individual choice for each taxpayer?

    CNN was also shocked that it might not be revenue neutral. OH NOOO! And suggested it might need 1trillion in cuts. How DARE anyone cut the federal govt!

    this country is about to fall over the edge into insanity.

    • izoneguy

      That happened in 2008

    • lineholder

      between the two systems.

      I’ve got my share of questions about it at the moment, and I’m sure that there is likely to be more information released in the days to come…and maybe even a bit of “tweaking”. So I’m just going to be open-minded about it for the time being.

  • explodinghead

    I am very pleased that Perry is trying to limit Federal spending to 18% of GDP and limit the size of government. I particularly like that Perry would require one program be eliminated before a new one is instituted and institute a freeze on Federal civilian hiring and salaries until the budget is balanced.

    Government is way too big, we need to stop spending and make government smaller. This plan addresses that and tackles Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, in a way that offers less fodder to the Democrats for attack. Lastly, it doesn’t give Congress a national sales tax to add to their current theft.

    • retire05

      The debt to GDP in Texas is 18%. That is a workable number for any state, and the lower the debt to the GDP, the better the state does.

      Also, Texas has a “sunset” law on every state program. If the program is successful, and worth the money being spent on it, it can be reinstated. If not, it goes away to the dust bin of history, not spending any more taxpayer dollars on a unsuccessful program.

      We know that the DoE has not been a success. Billions of taxpayer dollars have been poured into it, yet student tests scores have not come up, and in some areas, have gone down. Why are we funding an agency that has seen absolutely no success and really just been an abstract failure?

  • izoneguy

    Newt is on Hannity praising Perry’s plan
    And slammed Romney for not having a plan and
    said Cain’s plan is not workable…..

    Hmmmmmm

    • beach91

      I think a Perry/Gingrich ticket would be awesome!

      • acat

        to Perry/Gingrich is that Newt will be 77 in 2020…

        Mew

        • bzip

          That is why I would be for a Perry/Rubio if it weren’t for that I think the Perry/Newt would be great.

          I can just picture either Newt or Rubio tearing into Biden like a piece of cake :-) .

          • acat

            but I’d like to see Rubio have one hell of a career.

            Rubio was born in 1971. He’s 40 years old. He can run for Gov. Florida in 2014 if Scott proves a disappointment, or join the Perry ticket in 2016, or keep his Senate seat and run for Gov. Florida in 2018, then try for the White House in 2020.

            Further, since McConnell is still going to be the top folding suit in the Senate in 2013, we *need* Rubio in the greatest debate club, adding some conservative spine!

            Mew

          • reggie182

            I have difficulty picturing Newt taking the VP slot with any of the candidates, then subsequently breaking ties in the Senate and going to funerals on a regular basis.

            I really have come to believe that he entered this race for no other reason than to be the nominee. Newt loves the conservative cause, but he is very ambitious. His understanding of the limited amount of influence that VPs have historically had over the President IMHO would make him disinterested in the position.

            Could be wrong….but I think it’s all or nothing for him in this race.

          • beach91

            but in a debate with Biteme (Biden) he would own him! Newt should and hopefully will have a cabinet position in the next admin if he gets out of the pres. race. Secretary of State would be a good fit. Press secretary too but doubt he would want to do that.

          • davesinsanantonio

            That way he could oversee all the other cabinet members and make sure they are doing what is needed to right the national ship.

          • txpat

            Compared to Biden. Newt put in that position would make it a very valuable position.
            He could be involved in steering the Senate, and Perry looks to be the kind of guy who puts good advisors around him with the same mission.
            They would make a great team.
            Can you picture Newt and Biden in a debate?
            Newt would wipe the floor with him, and Biden wouldn’t know what hit him.

          • lastgopinillinois

            That he will NOT consider taking the office of vice-president. So, anybody that considering that, it probably aint gonna happen and I agree totally with the same reasons reggie stated. It just wouldn’t be his bag.

          • acat

            I suspect that, if Newt were promised a very active veep-dom, he’d go for it. He has to know there are more days behind than there are ahead.

            Mew

          • beach91

            in the Senate for now. I am biased being from FL but geez I am really torn in having him leave the Senate. He has a bright future for sure. Just look at how the libtards are going after him right now. They are afraid, very afraid.

        • beach91

          but still don’t think it would be an issue. By that time he would be more accepted in the general consensus and the ‘baggage’ stuff would be gone away.

          I also think he would make a great press secretary but doubt he would want to do that. I could just imagine him taking the stupid questions from the marxist reporters and giving them an education of sorts. Ya know like he has been doing in the debates. It would be fun to watch for sure!

  • supergirl2911

    A problem with Perry’s problem is you have to file twice to see which one would be better to you.
    Is that a problem?
    Would everyone file twice or could most people figure it out?
    If my finances and status don’t change greatly from year to the next (which I suspect is the case with most people) could I just run through the numbers the first year and then just go with it for a while?
    Seriously to have a slot on 5pm and bring this up as a problem shows…. I can’t think of an answer.

    • bzip

      The file twice is going to come up a lot i think. But it is silly because at most people will check “once” to see which plan is better than will follow that way regularly unless they have a lot of massive changes. in the taxing structure. So yes, you are correct check it the 1st year and be done with it. I really like Perry’s plan and the idea.

      • clintonformccain

        Want to keep it simple? Just do the 20% flat tax and finish your taxes in 10 minutes.

      • supergirl2911

        or can you?
        I mean if it was not an option, they would criticize that it was being forced on people. You will never make everyone happy and that should NOT be his goal, but the argument is incredulous to me.

        • clintonformccain

          The complaint:

          Perry’s plan is no good because some people will still have to calculate their taxes under the old ridiculously complex system to see if they would come out better than under the new streamlined system.

          The solution:

          Don’t change anything and make everyone continue using the old ridiculously complex system.

          • acat

            I don’t know where supergirl lives, but … around here, every single suburban public library, around tax time, has a list of senior citizens with math and accounting backgrounds who are happy to sit down and help people figure out their taxes.

            I’m sure they’d be willing to help do the double calculation.

            Mew

      • avagreen

        Why would this be any different?

        Agree, Boo! to The Five and Perino..

    • Common_Cents

      There seems to be some confusion when he said choice, is it a choice to replace the system or a choice for each taxpayer to choose between the two?

      If that is the case then how is Perry’s plan going to reduce tax prep? People will have to run both scenarios and see what is best and will still need just as much tax prep help.

      Need clarification here. CNN is bashing it saying it will be more complicated.

      Let’s have some nuts and call for it to replace the current system.

      • reggie182

        I don’t get how it reduces tax prep either. If someone has an answer please indulge me.

      • Common_Cents

        there should be some multi year sunset provision of current tax code. But short term dual codes would be fine to minimize market disruption.

        • bzip

          Exactly, you really have to have some transition period or it will become a disaster and it was wise for Perry to plan this out that way.

      • wacowboy

        that the program is an “opt in” kind of plan. Once you’re in, your’e in for life, no going back. If you choose to be out, you can perhaps choose to opt in at a later date but again, once your’e in, you’re in. I can’t promoting something as a simplification if it doesn’t eventually replace the current model. I can see the current system being phased out with new workers being put into the flat-tax model and all existing workers either opting in or eventually retiring.

        so, I would think that most people might run both scenarios in the first year as a comparison, make their decision, and move on.

        if you choose the flat tax, the math takes you 10 minutes if you use a pencil and a napkin. so it’s not like seeing both scenarios would be a whole lot of work.

    • Spartan4Life

      Total pablum.

      I’m sure Roger Ailes thinks it is really clever to put Bob Beckel on all the time to rile up us conservatives and that Chris “Gotcha’!” Wallace is a real entertainer but, man, I have to tell you Fox is just getting harder and harder to watch.

      The only thing that makes Fox News worth watching is Shannon Bream. I would watch that young lady read the phone book.

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        you might want to look back and reflect on the many many decades in which NO conservative views were ever seen anywhere on television except for Bill Buckly’s 30 minute show once a week.

        • acat

          Nothing wrong with Fox News. They lean left less than ABC/CBS/NBC, and they’ve made a buck doing so.

          Fox leans less left than the rest, so they appear right-wing .. but if you look at the statistics, they’re still left-of-center .. in the news division.

          What we’re finding is that Fox also skews strongly East Coast, just like ABC/CBS/NBC .. and in the bosnywash megalopolis, Romney is the one.

          This is just the way it is, and is the way it will remain until someone (maybe Breitbart, if he had more $$$) comes along and does a truly Conservative network.

          Mew

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            you get some right of center and some libertarian news and viewpoints. Where else on television do you get that?

            Where on television have you ever got that?

          • luvnthebigsites

            .

      • uncmike

        I did about 7 months ago and don’t miss it at all. I could no longer take the pontificating from O’Reilly, Hannity’s great, great panel, nor Greta’s free face time for hacks like John McCain and Lindsey Graham. You have to also put up with Rove and his establishment Republican colleagues telling us how bad the tea party is for “Republicans.” You can get all the real conservative information you need from Red State and other web sites. “The Five” is just the latest installment of Fox nonsense, especially with Beckley whom I cannot abide. Nor can I take Chris Wallace–he needs a show on MSNBC, his real home.

  • clintonformccain

    If Democrats want to abolish the old tax system to make thing simple when Perry’s plan comes up for passage in Congress, I’m sure he would be more than happy to go along with them!

  • lineholder

    If we are going to try to balance the budget, how do you project government revenues when you have a unknown variable that is to be determined by the taxpayers (i.e., choice between two systems) so that budgetary allotments can be developed?

    Or would it just be done retrospectively?

    • http://redmeatconservative.blogspot.com/ Daniel Horowitz

      the weakest part of this plan is its function as a revenue raiser – to the extent that conservatives view that as a vice. All of the people who don’t pay taxes under the EITC and ACTC will remain in the current system. I think you can project with pretty accurately who will remain in the system and who will go. I guess they are assuming that passage of such a plan would be such an economic boom that revenues would be high enough – at least to match the 18% spending level.

      • lineholder

        That’s the only way I could visualize it happening, and I was just getting ready to post a comment saying “never mind…I think I know”.

        This plan has it’s pros and cons, and there are numerous things in it that I do like. Just like I have my share of questions, LOL. I do that with everything.

        I’m very glad to see this topic as a primary focus in this year’s election.

        Thanks for answering my questions.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        Perry’s opt-in only reason lower/middle income taxes don’t go up.

        Flat Tax would raise taxes for many similarly situated with Paula

        From The Transom/Ben Domenech

        Avik Roy:http://goo.gl/riywP ?Some conservative policy bloggers are apoplectic about the optional nature of the Perry plan. But these critics appear to be entirely ignoring the central political flaw of a mandatory flat tax: that a mandatory flat tax necessarily raises taxes on lower- and middle-income earners. The only way to rebut this political criticism is to make the flat tax optional, so that the middle class doesn?t face higher taxes.?

        As I?ve pointed out before, this optional aspect catching so much flak surprises me. It was a key element of Paul Ryan?s original Roadmap, and I don?t recall it being so divisive then? What?s more, the fact that once you go to the flat tax, it?s a permanent choice?you can?t bounce back and forth. Perry is expecting the vast majority of Americans will migrate to that model, but he?s not demanding they do it immediately if they?ve structured their finances for the old system. This makes the approach more politically palatable for consumers, and a simple use of tax software will give you an indication of which way to go.

        I?m also surprised at the flack given the retention of a mortgage and charitable deduction. For the former, do you really want housing prices to collapse further? And for the latter, we have a raft of data which the deduction dramatically affects giving patterns (particularly for religious groups). Both deductions make this a more realistic plan when it comes to passing the hurdles in Congress, as FreedomWorks? Max Pappas acknowledges here. http://goo.gl/4Ryp2

        What I suspect is more at the core of this criticism is a recognition that Perry?s generous standard deduction of $12,500 means that the average family of four will have no federal income tax liability until they hit around $50,000 income. I?ve explained multiple times on Coffee & Markets that I support this aspect of policy, even if it makes me more progressive. All these people already pay state and local taxes, and the best way to broaden the base is by getting more Americans working in better jobs, not by raising taxes on those hardest hit by the recession. The opposite view is easily seen in 9-9-9. It is also politically unrealistic.

        DeVine-Gamecock rooster crowings

        I actually do want housing prices to fall further and reach bottom, but I still do favor the retention of the home mtg int deduction for otehr reasons related to encouraging the most important industry for recovery. But home prices need to reach bottom before there can be a recovery.

        FICA is and remains a federal income tax liability and needs to be characterized as such by conservatives. It comes out of low income checks and is used just like general revenues and no one is guaranteed to reap the benefits of Soc Sec unlike a Chilean plan.

        I do agree with you on the need for a progressive standard deduction for the poor and low income.

        • izoneguy

          That is why they would have an option – under Perry’s plan – if they like their
          present tax situation they can keep it.

          With 9-9-9 they have no options, with 9-0-9 it is not clear.
          What will Cain do next? 0-0-9, 9-0-0?

          Perry’s plan would have a much better chance of approval in Congress.
          Cain cannot present his 9-9-9 plan in any coherent fashion,
          Congress has a hard time understanding what time it is.

          • rightwingmom52

            and sure don’t want to keep it, but it appears that my taxes might go up (I’ll have to ask our accountant) under Perry’s plan (empty nester). I don’t like that either. Why would I support any plan under which my choice is the status quo (bad) or a tax increase (if shown to be the case, equally bad or worse)?

          • izoneguy

            There are still many what if’s with every plan.

            The only way taxes can be decreased in the long run
            is by growing the economy.

            Perry’s plan is the only one with the way forward by growing the economy
            and slashing spending.

            Romney looked under every stone while he was gov to collect
            more taxes by what he said was “closing loopholes”.

            I would never support Cain so 9-9-9 is not an issue.

            Of course the left is slamming Perry because they want to
            keep growing government. I do know this – if you want to
            pay more taxes vote for the demo rats.

          • rightwingmom52

            with your last sentence. As for your statement that you would never support Cain, I assume you mean that only with regard to the primary. Is that the case? Because I will support whoever the nominee is in the general.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            They are always wrong and he is right that we are doomed absent growth and he proposes what we know does cause growth.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          their taxes

        • rightwingmom52

          With regard to lower income folks who pay payroll taxes, obviously they’re working in some capacity which is a different situation from those who sit and wait for a government check. While I’m in favor of helping those who can’t help themselves and/or those who are trying to help themselves and just need a little help (group 1), it’s a totally different ballgame with those who won’t work and/or who game the system (group 2). I think this may be where some fail to distinguish between the two groups. Those in group 2 aren’t paying any payroll or income taxes, are they? Am I off base here? What am I missing? Is there anything in 999 or in Perry’s plan that would help move those in group 2 toward group 1?

          What are your thoughts on the principle of taxing consumption rather than income?

          Okay, that’s more than a couple.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            and raise wages and living standards from the bottom up. And with the 999 to 909 for the lower-income folks that helps a lot. But for those that don’t work and can’t get the income tax deduction, they face the 9% sales tax at the store and that will hurt, although not as much as is thought by some because goods should also come down in price since all that corp and income tax up to 35% won’t be embedded.

            I think Perry’s plan would also foster econ growth.

            I have no problem with a small sales/consumption tax to widen the tax base and foster savings to an extent. But I loathe the FAIR Tax because the rate is so high and Big Brother pre-bates would be required to defray the huge rise in prices for necessities.

            Plus, this country is a superpower that must have growth to maintain its defense and standard of living and that growth depends and will always need lots of consumption.

            I think 999 strikes a good balance.

          • retire05

            Cain’s 9% sales tax is a job killer. Here is why:

            almost all states and cities currenly have a sales tax. That tax is not going to go away as it is the sole source of revenue that states get to keep and not forward to D.C. So that means if your current sales tax where you live is now 8%, you are going to be paying 17% with the Cain Plan.

            Also, some states do not charge sales tax on groceries and medications. The 9% federal tax on those items, which are the two largest items in most senior’s budgets, will reduce their buying power by 9%. Not a winning plan for seniors.

            Now, if companies are getting $25.00 for a product now, they are not going to reduce the price of that product simply because Cain says they will. Any good business manager, including Cain, would use that break to maximize profits and pay better dividends to stock holders.

            One other point; Cain says 9-9-9 (step 2) is just a beginning on his way to reach that goal of a Fair Tax, which you say you do not like.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            But the removal of 35% embedded income and corp taxes are also a factor. It would take some time for all that to shake out. Perry’s plan would also cause dislocations.

            But both plans would be job creators by a long shot.

          • westcoastpatriette

            We already have state and local sales taxes that are about 8.5% and we do not tax food. So, 999 would be horrendous to Californians.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            Your situation is an example of why I have argued for 10 years that any major conservative change will have to have a transition period. I usually only applied that maxim to spending. But your complaint is valid and seems to explain why I was always a Flat Tax guy and still am. But there are aspects of 9-9-9 that still make me lean to it. Still thinking…

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            goods

          • retire05

            So, instead of buying a new car, I will buy one that is a year old to avoid the 9% sales tax. Dealers will title their cars used by the dealership as demonstrators. Once that car is titled, when sold, it has become a used vehicle even if it is only two months old. A simple way to get around the 9%.

            It will also kill production of new goods and force people to buy used goods.

            Not a winning plan, by any means.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            of 9-9-9

            Let’s also bring the same level of scrutiny to all of the plans.

          • conservativeparrothead

            I owned a retail golf shop for a few years in the late 90′s and early 00′s, just glad with the internet and ebay these days, Im not in that business anymore. But one thing is that instead of buying something new, from a local business helping local economy, you will get people who will buy “slightly” used on say an ebay to avoid paying the tax.

            How about 9% on any new product not made in America?

  • bzip

    Very interesting polling data on flat tax Vs 999. No wonder Perry went with the flat tax beside who wants to start a new national tax under the 999 plan:

    Flat Tax Outpaces 9-9-9 in Poll, Notably Among Conservatives:

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/in-poll-flat-tax-outpaces-9-9-9-notably-among-conservatives/

    http://www.langerresearch.com/uploads/1127a5FavorabilityNo5.pdf

    “While a flat tax divides the nation overall, moreover, it resonates most strongly in a group of particular interest to Perry ? ?very conservative? Americans, a key GOP voting group. They hold favorable views of a flat tax by a broad 68-28 percent in this ABC News/Washington Post poll, suggesting a strategic rationale for Perry?s initiative.

    More broadly, there?s greater division: Americans overall split by 47-48 percent on the notion of a flat tax ? that is, removing most income tax deductions and charging all taxpayers the same tax rate, instead of charging higher rates on higher incomes. That?s almost identical to the 48-48 percent split on a flat tax in a different ABC/Post question back in August 1996.”

  • Risky

    With he option to stay on the existing tax code, this leaves the existing tax code on the statue book at the flat tax option will be just one more choice for your tax advisor. Perhaps this could do for a phase in period but it’s a bad thing in general.

    And I agree on the mortgage interest deduction. The government needs to get out of the real estate business. However it a big one and scares people. I’d propose phasing it out over 5 or 10 years either by reference to your prior claim or just capping the deduction and reducing the cap.

    It’s not fun but you know its the right thing in the end.

    • davesinsanantonio

      would be to just stop it for new mortgages. That way people would know to not get into a mortgage they would not be able to afford without the deduction. Since most people change houses within 8 years, then the problem would solve itself incrementally over that time. Those diehards who cling to their home just for the deduction would be easily taken care of by the IRS computers for as long as their mortgages last. No problem.

  • runner12

    not afraid to address entitlement reform and the elimination of baseline budgeting. I think this is a plan that almost any conservative can get behind. I hope that this will propel Perry forward and give him some traction to win the nomination.

    Perry 2012

    • beach91

      55555!

  • bzip

    It was a great day for Team Perry with the roll out of his truly bold Cut, Cap and Growth Plan followed up with the O’Reilly interview.

    I feel Perry did a very good job in the interview he continued to show Romney as the flip-flopper, did great at answer the questions boldly and seemed very at ease. He really hit it out of the ball park with the illegal alien issue I thought. You can tell the professional nature of Perry when he wants to be and why he has such a proven track record of conservative principles.

    Go Perry 2012

    • evilleramsfan

      O’Reilly tried to get Perry to bite at a major slam of Romney, but he didn’t go for it. He was still critical, though, stating that it is one thing for a person’s political views to change and evolve over time, but quite another for someone to abruptly change positions while in their 50′s or 60′s.

      Perry was clear, provided good answers, and came out of it looking pretty good, imo. O’Reilly didn’t appear to phase him. The only problem was that there appeared to be a slight delay due to the connection, so some of his responses seemed hesitant. It was pretty clear, though, that it was connection related and not Perry.

  • goformitt

    Perry’s plan was designed to out gun Cain’s simple (minded) plan. It is nothing but populist politics – no substance, no consideration of implications. Most of the people who support these silly plans will also be the first on the phone complaining about rising fees at the state and local level, reduced services, understaffed agencies, slow slow removal, higher education costs, etc., etc., etc.

    You can criticize Romney’s plan, but at least it is rational and has a snowballs chance of being implemented. These are other plans are just red meat and have NO chance of ever seeing the light of day.

    • onemovoter

      That it is … not specific in many ways. So I guess it would be easy to implement since you could claim anything close to it as success.

      Yes I have read Romney’s 59 point plan and half of it is specific and half is not. It was deemed very weak by several groups and got dumped on again today by Americans for Tax Reform.

      Seems that quite a few prominent people who actually know about policy and taxes have said Perry’s Tax plan is very good. I just finished listening to Mark Levin go over the details.
      http://www.therightscoop.com/mark-levin-rick-perry-has-come-up-with-one-hell-of-a-proposal/

  • heraklios

    Romney’s plan is “rational” To whom is it rational? I guess Romney’s plan would be considered rational by Barrack Obama, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi since it’s so similar to the plan they implemented prior to the 2010 elections.

  • septembergurl

    Huntsman’s tax reform plan is better than Perry’s, in fact it’s the best.

    There are many things to like in Perry’s plan — especially the spending, regulatory and budgeting reform. Outstanding, in fact. Also the entitlement reform shows some deep systematic thinking of the type we will need. Probably the best overall on entitlement reform.

    The flat tax he proposes (similar in outline to Bachmann’s and Gingrich’s) is weak because of the optional aspect. This means, simply put, that the plan will not produce the income it promises.

    This is because people will try to game the system and pay the lower rate. It doesn’t help that he keeps deductions, mortgage, etc. It’s better than 9..er but flawed.

    It’s regressive. It does not create a larger class of taxpayers, which should be one of our goals.

    By contrast, Huntsman’s plan has three tax rates: 8, 14, and 23. No deductions. No exemptions, no carve-outs. It’s progressive and fair.

    As these plans are offered by the candidates, some areas of agreement are coming into focus. The cuts in corporate taxes, ending cap gains and death taxes, and some kind of relief in personal income taxes. It’s becoming clear that 2013 will see a Republican Presdient and most likely a Republican Senate & House. This is a once in a lifetime chance to reform taxes and return to a pro-growth economy.

  • bloodshy

    There’s nothing bold about this. It’s a caveat stacked on a caveat.

    It decreases revenues, increases debt and keeps the entire tax code we currently have w/o closing a single loop-hole or ridding us of a single IRS agent.

    All Perry did was create an impossible-to-pass plan that he can use to appease every voter in America. He saw Cain flub up w/the 47%, so he made sure to keep all the tax entitlements currently in the code, but also create a flat tax for the wealthiest who pay over 20%.

    This is a cowardly, low-IQ plan that would be a disaster if enacted. Fortunately, since only the wealthiest Americans benefit, it’s dead on day 1.

    • davesinsanantonio

      Either he “appeased every voter in America” Or, “only the wealthiest Americans benefit”. I cannot be both!!!

      Stop being a “bot”. Mindless repetition of talking points does not help anyone, even you–or your candidate. Think before you type.

  • bzip

    Rick Perry Releases First Round of Ads in Iowa
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/rick-perry-releases-first-round-of-ads-in-iowa/

    Perry Iowa ad pledges to create 2.5 million jobs
    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66870.html

  • bzip

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/25/jindal-lauds-perrys-tax-plan/

  • izoneguy

    The revenue and GDP impact of the Perry flat tax plan ? now with actual numbers!

    Overall, based on the type of static analysis generally used by government tax estimators, JDA found that the tax plan would generate $2.781 trillion in federal income in 2014 ? the first year that it would be assumed to go into effect and as much as $5.138 trillion by 2020. The revenues in 2020 would be equal to approximately 19.5 percent of GDP. Based on a dynamic tax analysis, revenues would be $406.8 billion higher than those currently assumed in the Congressional Budget Office?s forecasts and will equal approximately 19.5 percent of the forecast GDP, under a static analysis, revenues would be about $588.9 billion lower, and equal about 18.1 percent of GDP.

    Based on the higher GDP estimates forecast by the dynamic scoring exercise, the Perry proposal will not only?lead to an increase in overall economic activity and jobs, but will also lead to higher federal revenues in the?long term. In fact, the analysis suggests that revenues could be as much as $406.8 billion higher than under the?static model by 2020, and could be as high as 19.5 percent of GDP.?The dynamic score of the proposal suggests that lower flatter taxes could generate both more revenue than the?current tax code, and significantly more economic growth over time. With increasing demands on the Federal?government from growing entitlements, higher pension expenses and interest on the debt, it will be necessary to?increase the size of the economy ? and the tax base ? in order to generate significantly higher revenues.

  • kestrel

    I just read Perry’s roll-out of “Cut, Balance, Grow” at Investor’s Business Daily. His piece is longer than your summary, but it is easy to read, with many delicious lines, like this:

    “On the corporate tax side… My plan closes corporate loopholes, ends the special breaks for special interests, and stops the gravy train of lobbyists and tax lawyers at the Washington trough.”

    And:
    “we will end the current pillaging of the Social Security Trust Fund by Washington politicians. Here is the hard truth: the trust fund is full of IOU?s, without a single dime of money left over from what workers have paid in.”

    And:
    “Tax rates have consequences…. We need tax policy that embraces the world as it is, and not what liberal ideologues wish it to be. The goal of my cut, balance and grow plan is to unleash job creation… It provides employers and investors certainty, which is critical to getting capital back into the economy.”

    http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/589352/201110261023/Rick-Perry-flat-tax-text.htm

    The guy “gets it”! He totally “gets it”! I’m going to read the plan again for supper. It’s that good.

  • onemovoter

    “It would grow the economy.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/281378/paul-ryan-perry-plan-i-can-tell-you-it-would-grow-economy-avik-roy

    There are so many others who are praising Perry’s tax plan that I’ll have to put it all in a diary.. a long diary. Sheesh.

    • kestrel

      “I?m here today to talk about health care, which is a subject that I find it hard to be funny about ? especially since the Democrats stole all the health care jokes and enacted them into law.”

      http://paulryan.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=261967

  • retire05

    If you want a jaw dropping report, read this one:

    http:pjmedia.com/blog/breaking-homeland-security-adviser-allegedly-leaked-intel-to-attack-rick-perry

    • izoneguy

      I wonder who put Elibiary up to snooping on Rick Perry?
      Hmmmmm, could it be -

      Who is Mohamed Elibiary?

      In December 2004, Mr. Elibiary spoke at a conference honoring the life and works of the ?great Islamic visionary,? Iran?s Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. In 2008, Mr. Elibiary denounced the conviction of Hamas-connected members of the Holy Land Foundation for material support of terrorism.

      Most alarmingly, Mr. Elibiary is an admirer of the work of Sayyid Qutb, the intellectual and spiritual godfather of modern jihadism. Mr. Elibiary argues that Qutb is greatly misunderstood. ?Many Westerners who?ve read Qutb?s and many others? work,? Mr. Elibiary wrote, ?see the potential for a strong spiritual rebirth that?s truly ecumenical allowing all faiths practiced in America to enrich us and motivate us to serve God better by serving our fellow man more.?

      No one who has read Qutb?s work can mistake it for anything but an all-out assault on the American way of life and a call for a global Islamic takeover. The 9/11 Commission noted Qutb?s role as an inspiration to al Qaeda and concluded that, ?No middle ground exists in what Qutb conceived as a struggle between God and Satan. All Muslims – as he defined them – therefore must take up arms in this fight. Any Muslim who rejects his ideas is just one more nonbeliever worthy of destruction.? Qutb – who lived in the United States as a student in the late 1940s – developed a comprehensive anti-American ideology that?s widely cited as the basis for the contemporary violent Islamic extremism with which America is at war.

      Qutb promoted violent, predatory Islamic internationalism with a clear voice. If Mr. Elibiary is one of his disciples, he has no business being anywhere in government, let alone as an adviser at the uppermost reaches of an agency that purports to protect the homeland.

      • izoneguy

        Who is Mohamed Elibiary? – Take 2

        Mohamed Elibiary wears two hats, one as the Founder of?Lone Star Intelligence LLC,?a Security?Crisis?Consulting Firm, and the other as President?of The Freedom and Justice Foundation (F&J),?a Texas Muslim interfaith community relations and state public policy educational nonprofit.
        ?
        As a Dallas-based Texas Muslim community leader, Mohamed co-founded the Freedom and Justice Foundation (F&J) in November 2002 to help Texas Muslims achieve multiple firsts such as Imam Prayers in both chambers of the State Legislature (House?& Senate) and passage of the Halal Food Law as Texas?s first Muslim consumer protection statute.
        ?
        Mohamed helped co-found in 2006 the North Texas Islamic Council (NTIC), a regional coordination (shura) body for dozens of area Mosques, Islamic schools and community groups serving the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex?s estimated 150,000+ Muslim citizens. In addition to the multiple federal and state government?advisory?roles?Mohamed performs, he has maintained his grassroots practitioner?role and currently voluntarily serves in a spokesman capacity for the largest Muslim congregation in Texas, the Islamic Association of North Texas (IANT), aka the Dallas Central Mosque.
        ?
        Mr. Elibiary was a 2008?2009 Fellow at the University of Southern California (USC)-based American Muslim Civic Leadership Institute (AMCLI) focusing on the civic engagement of faith-based communities.? He is currently a member of the Intelligence and National Security Alliance (INSA), a lifetime member of the International Association of Business Communicators (IABC), and the Vice-President of the FBI-Dallas Citizens? Academy Alumni Association.?
        ?
        Mohamed?s received numerous awards in his career including the ?Invisible Giants Award? from the National Voting Rights Institute in Selma, Alabama?(2003) for following in the footsteps of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Mr. Elibiary is a contributing expert to multiple media outlets including Foxnews.com and the Dallas Morning News; and has been on CNN, FOX News, NY Times, Washington Post, NPR, LA Times and many more national print and broadcast?media outlets.

        • williamjameson

          point in posting about Mohamed Elibiary on an economic dairy?

  • conservativeparrothead

    http://www.newt.org/news/lets-bump-plans-comparison-gingrich-and-perrys-flat-tax-plans

    Newt went line by line and showed the differences between his plan and Perry’s.

    • Common_Cents

      every candidate should have them to make it easier to compare plans and positions on issues.

  • morninginamerica

    What’s this “revenue-neutral” nonsense, replace the old revenue with any new tax, when everyone knows Washington is spending far too much?

    Make them an offer. Seriously, supply-side tax cuts will raise revenues too much with Perry’s 20% rate. IF SPENDING IS CONTROLLED! Don’t forget the Democrats spent all the new money Reagan’s tax cuts brought in and more. We finally got the surplus with a Republican Congress under Clinton.

  • williamjameson

    exempts most taxation with incomes below $50,000 unless they choose the old plan. Better to eliminate the old plan before campaigning on it since liberals will say Perry wants the 1% to pay less than the alleged “fair share”.