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Romneycare, Bain Capital, 2012, and the Lost Opportunity to Assail Obamacare

“Romney’s career as a venture socialist governor is what should concern us; not his career as a venture capitalist in the private sector.”

At this point, residents of South Carolina are already getting tired of those TV ads and documentaries detailing the destruction wrought by Romneycare.  They are jaded by the flashing screens of middle class sob stories from respectable Massachusetts taxpayers – taxpayers who never requested handouts – being forced to struggle with skyrocketing health insurance costs as a result of the market-distortions engendered by Romneycare.

Every South Carolina resident can recite the now infamous closing line of the anti-Romney ads by heart: “shall we nominate the grandfather of Obamacare to run against its father?”

Oh, wait.  Those ads never ran.

Amidst this week’s contretemps over Romney’s tenure at Bain Capital, for some reason, we are obscuring the real albatross around Romney’s neck; the issue of healthcare.  While Romney’s record at Bain might provide Obama with his biggest campaign weapon, Romneycare will disarm Romney, and by extension, all Republicans, of our biggest campaign weapon, namely, Obamacare.  And while Bain might provide Romney’s Republican opponents with a useful political argument (Romney’s electability problems in the general election), it does not provide them with a prudent and virtuous ideological argument.  Romneycare, on the other hand, provides the Mitt-alternatives with inviolable ideological arguments as well as political ones.

Romneycare is the antecedent to Obamacare.  It dramatically distorted the free-market of private insurance; it dumped a few hundred thousand people onto federally funded Medicaid; it set up gov’t-run exchanges that disincentivize success and offer larger subsidies than those proposed in Obamacare; it placed unreasonable mandates on employers to fund their employee’s healthcare.  The net result of Romneycare was the archetypical outcome of every statist policy; the price of a vital service was purposely distorted as a means of enticing more people to become dependent upon government.

Yes, it was all orchestrated by state government, not the federal government.  Such a rationalization, according to Mitt, will ameliorate all of Romneycare’s vices – vices that are identical to those inherent in Obamacare.  Somehow, regressive statism is desirable simply because Romney had the “right” to implement it as governor of a state.

Moreover, as a political argument, how will Romney be able to employ our most potent weapon in a way that won’t be perceived as hypocritical?  Try to imagine a general election debate over healthcare between Romney and Obama:

Romney: “Obamacare is a disaster.”

Obama: “If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan.  People outside of the exchange will be unaffected by the changes.  Further, Mr. Romney, we actually got the ideas of subsidized healthcare exchanges and the individual mandate from you.  Weren’t they pretty successful in Massachusetts?”

Now, had Romney disavowed his Massachusetts disaster, he would be in a good position to articulate the failures of government-run healthcare vis-à-vis controlling costs.  He could point to the skyrocketing costs of insurance premiums in Mass. as the canary in the coal mine for the rest of the nation.

He could observe the fact that the rest of the nation is indeed incurring the inimical effects of market distortions that he originally, yet erroneously, implemented in his home state a few years earlier.

He could apply political jujitsu against Obama’s class warfare by explaining how it is Obama’s regressive ‘progressive’ policies that are summarily driving up the cost of healthcare on “the middle class,” with the intent of forcing them on government-run health programs.

He could implore the nation to learn from the mistakes of Massachusetts in mandating guaranteed issuance and community rating.  Community rating forces insurance companies to charge all customers similar premiums, irrespective of their station in life and risk potential.  These mandates are the biggest drivers of healthcare insurance inflation and are an anathema to all our conservative beliefs.  They failed in Massachusetts.  They will fail nationally as well.

Obamacare has raised the cost of private health insurance premiums by 9% in just one year, even before its enactment.  One study estimates that Obamacare will raise the cost of individual health insurance premiums by 55%-85%, while a healthy young male may experience a rate increase of between 90% and 130%.  Worse, many employers plan to drop healthcare coverage.

Sadly, not only has Romney failed to disavow the Massachusetts travesty, he defends it in the exact manner which Obama defends his signature accomplishment.  He had this to say at the FoxNews-Google Debate in September:

“Let me tell you this about our system in Massachusetts: 92 percent of our people were insured before we put our plan in place. Nothing’s changed for them. The system is the same. They have private market-based insurance.  We had 8 percent of our people that weren’t insured. And so what we did is we said let’s find a way to get them insurance, again, market-based private insurance. We didn’t come up with some new government insurance plan.”

There you have it.  Romney, just like Obama, denies the fact that government interventions in the private market will invariably harm all consumers and businesses.  Perforce, he will have no response to Obama other than the vapid “that was state, this is federal” argument.  Yup, something so terrible on a federal level is so superlative on a state level.

In other words, Romney will completely disarm us of our most successful electoral weapon.  We should be able to harness the anti-Obamacare sentiment even more deftly this year than in 2010, as the higher premiums stimulated by the bill are being actualized.  Yet, we will squander this paramount opportunity because none of the other candidates seem to care.  As Philip Klein ominously predicts, “should he [Romney] become the nominee, the Massachusetts program will no longer be a problem just for him, Romneycare will become a thorny issue for the entire Republican party.

One of the most inscrutable aspects of the primary campaign is the failure of the super PACs to concoct half-hour documentaries on Romneycare.  Guaranteed issue, community rating, government-run health exchanges, and Medicaid expansion are bigger imprecations to the free-market than Romney’s career at Bain.  Romney’s career as a venture socialist governor is what should concern us; not his career as a venture capitalist in the private sector.

After three years of campaigning against Obamacare, we are on the verge of elevating the Thomas Edison of anti-free-market healthcare to the party’s highest honor.

With the presidential election going downhill, it is probably time to apply our Tea Party energy to the congressional elections.  In the coming days we will redouble our efforts here at Red State to elect conservative members to the Senate and House.


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COMMENTS

  • hobiecat

    Newt didn’t you run with that or stick with the “Pius Bologna”. And Perry? Bain Capital? These guys are off the rails. Who’s running these guys campaigns? A golden opportunity to state the obvious about Mitt, and they attack from the left of him. The Horror. The Horror.

    • jonbg

      The issue is not Mitt’s capitalism. It’s his unscrupulous business practices. Of course, he’s going to try to hide behind the old line, “that’s just capitalism” to hide any discussion of his business practices.

      But, is it capitalism to make your money by

      1. Defrauding Medicare?
      2. Misleading Investors?
      3. Cheating Creditors?
      4. Cheating Taxpayers?
      5. Leaving the government, workers and taxpayers holding an empty bag?
      6. Raiding the pension funds of companies and leaving workers without the pensions they earned?
      7. Using offshore tax shelters to gain additional investment funds thereby allowing you to increase your own wealth (Note: the issue is not the tax rate Mitt paid, but the fact that he benefited from helping foreign investors evade U.S. taxes and that money made Mitt money).

      If Mitt Romney is the great businessman he and his supporters proclaim he is, then why do they always try to shut down any discussion of his business record?

      We already know that Mitt Romney will say anything to get elected. When you look at his business record, you find that Mitt Romney was willing to do whatever it took to make money.

      Most Americans work hard and play by the rules.

      Mitt Romney works hard at not playing by the rules.

      • Ann_W

        no text..

        • jonbg

          The record is there .. perhaps that’s why Mitt and his surrogates want to shut down any discussion of his business record.

          Just one example:

          Mitt Romney’s company engaged in Medicare Fraud at the expense of taxpayers, the government, and seniors so he could make more money for himself and his wealthy friends.

          In fact, Mitt Romney and Bain made large profits from the sale of a medical testing company whose revenues were generated in part from a criminal scheme to fraudulently bill the federal Medicare system for unnecessary blood tests.

          Mitt Romney personally made $473,000 when Corning Inc. purchased Damon Corp. Bain made a profit of $7.4 million.

          In 1996, Damon Corp. pleaded guilty a federal conspiracy charge of defrauding the government of $25 million between 1988 and 1993.

          Mitt Romney personally served on the board of Damon from 1990-1993.

          The company paid a fine of $119 million for Medicare Fraud. At that time, its was the largest fine in history for Medicare Fraud. The Medicare fraud scheme was described by then the US Attorney as “a case, pure and simple, of corporate greed run amok.”

          • jonbg

            Mitt Romney sat on the board of Staples while Staples made an ill-fated investment in one of Mitt’s companies.

            Staples’ shareholders lost money while Mitt Romney made money on the deal.

            Bain did well and so did Romney. Mitt Romney earned about $100,000 from his share of the profits.

            Staples shareholders did not do so well. The $140 million transaction was written off as a total loss two years later.

            But, what if Bain had not sold the company to Staples? What if no other buyer had come along? Then, Bain would have lost its entire investment in the firm when the firm failed.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            You started posting this crap TODAY, your first day at Redstate. All of your posts are basically the same and there is nary a link in any of them.

            I would think that you’re an ignorant troll.

            I’m no fan of Romney for a whole bunch of reasons, none of which have anything to do with the crap you’re posting, but he’s just above Ron Paul on my list. Nonetheless, the litany of stuff you’re flacking is, in all likelihood, pure BS – conclusions you’ve drawn from selective “fact picking”.

            So, post links with your accusations or STFU.

          • jonbg

            Mbecker,

            I have been reading Redstate almost since its beginning. I didn’t join to comment before because over the course of the comments, everything that can be said about an issue is usually already said.

            However, I believe that Mitt Romney’s “achilles heel” is his business record in private equity. What I saw being discussed was whether leveraged buyouts were a good form of capitalism. I happen to believe that they have a place in business. I believe that the real issue is the past business practices of Mitt Romney as a leveraged buyout specialist. His past practices were quite aggressive – much more so than the normal leveraged buyout practitioner.

            So, I’m not trolling. I am only calling attention to Mitt’s past business record. His record is mixed. The first part of his business experience involved Venture Capitalism. The best example of this is Staples.

            The second part, and the most lucrative part of his career, was the private equity part of his career. It is this part of his business career that is more troublesome.

            The court records are not publicly available. However, several campaigns have them.

            I have been looking for publicly available sources for you.

            A brief discussion of the Medicare settlement can be found in the Quest (successor company) SEC filing. Here a link to it:

            http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1022079/0000950146-97-000404.txt

            If you have access to the Proquest database, I will be happy to send you search terms that provide articles for your perusal.

          • aesthete

            I think the reason that people are getting on your case is that, while your contribution is tangentially related to what is being discussed, you are repeating the same thing over and over, it is quite lengthy, and does not appear to follow what the person you’re replying to is saying. This is known as “threadjacking”. Personally, I have been skipping your comments for that reason. I would suggest that you post the content in your comments as a diary (make sure that they are sourced); that way, they will receive the attention that they deserve without interrupting the flow of conversation. Welcome to RS!

          • jonbg

            I can appreciate that. Thank you for pointing this out.

          • jonbg

            I would be happy to provide excerpts, however, I sense that you do not find this acceptable.

            The information is dispersed in numerous documents.

            I am sure the information will become “commonplace” after Mitt is the nominee.

            I am only one person. I do not work for a candidate. I am not associated with a campaign.

            In fact, I am torn between several candidates. Just like a lot of other conservatives, my heart says one thing and my head says another.

          • OregonConservative

            Yet you state: “The court records are not publicly available. However, several campaigns have them.”

            If they are not publicly available but several campaigns have them, how did you know what’s in the court records if you’re not associated with a campaign?

          • jonbg

            Public records are not available due to the length of time that has passed.

            If you’d like to verify the Damon settlement, the link will take you to the 10-K filing that includes a discussion of the Damon settlement.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            You post very high profile sounding charges that none of the candidates are talking about, you refuse to provide proof, and then you blow smoke. Write several diaries, be specific and provide links to reputable sources.

            Or, just crawl back under your rock.

          • jonbg

            I provided a public link which contains the Damon settlement discussion. Have you read it?

          • jonbg

            The Damon Settlement. By issuance of a civil subpoena in August 1993, the government began a formal investigation of Damon, an independent clinical laboratory company acquired by Corning earlier the same month. Subsequent to September 1993, several additional subpoenas were issued. By a plea agreement and civil settlement agreement and release dated October 9, 1996, between the DOJ and Damon, all federal criminal matters within the scope of the various federal investigations against Damon, and all claims included in the civil quitam cases underlying the civil investigations, were settled for an aggregate of $119 million, which sum was reimbursed to the Company by Corning. The settlement included base recoupments of approximately $40 million and total criminal and civil payments in excess of base recoupments of approximately $79 million. The Damon settlement does not exclude the Company from future participation in any federal health care programs on account of Damon’s practices. For further information regarding the Damon settlement, see Note 14 to the Consolidated Financial Statements.

          • jonbg

            I don’t think I have the ability to create a diary.

            According to the HELP section:
            Once logged in, click the ?Create New
            Diary Entry? link under the masthead.

            This option isn’t there.

          • Ann_W

            You said that he defrauded Medicare. Out of over a hundred companies that he was involved with, one was convicted on charges of this. He had limited involvement with the company. He was never charged with anything.

            Damon was sold to Corning when Mitt left before the charges were filed. So that time frame means that Corning would have sent in auditors to do due diligence before they paid for the company. If auditors for a purchasing company, looking at all the details of the transactions didn’t find the fraud; how would a person minimally involved on the board see it? If there was any indication that he knew of a fraud at the company criminal prosecution and lawsuits would have prevailed– it happens all the time.

            It was one of over a hundred companies, many of which he was involved with at the same time, never any indication of any wrong doing on his part. If the fraud were his idea you would have seen it at more than 1/100 companies. Sorry, nothing here, nice try.

          • gekster

            Provide proof of what you say, or just go away.

          • usedtobelib

            that a rich guy like Romney can’t identify with regular folks.

            That’s a huge pile of garbage; it’s dung; it’s fecal material, Gov. Perry.

            Maybe Gov. Perry really is harboring subconscious envy at not having much as a kid.

            Get over it, Guv, and understand that Americans like the idea of making money and those with brains don’t harbor ill will toward those with it.

            Or, are you too dumb to know that?

          • trickamsterdam

            Otherwise, why do some of Mitt Romney’s biggest fans talk about how handsome he is, and that he has a wonderful family (totally irrelevant to whether he’d be a good President)?

            When the criticisms are are superficial as the complements, the people doing the complementing have no reason to complain (I’m not saying you, just many of Romney’s “fans”…and they can only be called that…in the media).

            I have no doubt Romney has a good work ethic. He didn’t just slide by on his father’s money and power. That’s clear by his record. But does he understand the average person?

            I’m not sure you’re more qualified to say than the person you were so harshly criticizing.

          • usedtobelib

            looks on this blog except for scores of references to him as a “Ken doll.” I hardly think those using that term meanits use in a complementary way. For the record, in this woman’s opinion, he is attractive, in a clean-cut, 1950s kind of unsensual way.

            There is someone on this blog, a frequent poster, who regularly speaks of the good looks of Rick Perry. I have never quite figured out if that’s a troll, the remarks are so “dreamy,’ or if the poster is for real, but for the record, Gov. Perry is attractive as well, until he opens his mouth and a not-too-bright George Bush pops out.

            There are news broadcasters and writers who are forever speaking of Jon Huntsman’s good looks. In still photos, he’s a decent-looking man, IMO, until he begins talking. The camera doesn’t like his physical idiosycracies, but so what?

            I know that Mitt Romney knows full well how my 401k has tanked in the last several years. I know he knows how and why companies feel confident or not confident about taking risks and growing their companies (thus, hiring people) or how and why they sit on the sidelines, (as I am doing with part of my 401K which is actually sitting, and has been for 1.5 years in a safe savings account getting no interest).

            I’d like Wall Street to actually have faith in a President who won’t over-regulate and who won’t stifle growth. If we did, maybe I’d earn some interest or maybe my mutual funds would grow in value.

            I am a retired teacher–that’s as middle class as you can get. So, yeah, a guy who understand the market and market forces actually understands ME. He knows I have saved for years, lost value in those 401ks and want it back so that I can enjoy some security and so that I can have some fun before I die.

            He knows I don’t want to have it taken from me and redistributed to a-holes who have chosen to never save a dime and never to work.

          • trickamsterdam

            Michael Medved and Michael Savage…neither exactly a metrosexual…but they do mention it a lot. So do A. Coulter and P. Noonan though….I think everybody kind of means he “looks like a President” when they mention it though…I think what you basically meant when you said he was attractive but “unisexual”.

            You defend Romney well. Yes, he probably does understand those things you mentioned. He doesn’t bother me that much because he’s pretty clearly the most electable….not because he’s a moderate but because he doesn’t make mistakes.

            Still, I’d take a brokered convention….which I actually don’t think would hurt Romney, if he ended up having enough power to be the nominee anyway…it could even help him by keeping D ads off his back until after the convention…. I’d explain why a brokered convention isn’t just a pipe dream, but I’m typing on an iPhone keyboard that is smaller than Ron Paul’s chance of being the nominee (and even Tim Geitner’s brain).

      • redsox9687

        rick perry just referred to romney as a “vulture capitalist”…. smearing a successful private sector business man as a “vulture capitalist” is something i’d expect to see on a poster in Zuccotti park, not coming out of the mouth of someone trying to win a Republican primary.

        call me crazy.

      • circlegranch

        and for those, such Hannity and Limbaugh, that think Rick Perry just made up the phrase, “vulture capitalism” because he’s a desperate, sore loser that’s not even a true conservative, there really is such a business practice.

        Venture capitalism, which is the form that most conservatives applaud and hang their hats on as being free-market, jobs creating, small government. Venture capitalists, of large and small means, invest money at the get-go of a company. They gamble against the risk that a new start-up will prosper and they invest with the intention of providing the ground floor for a successful organization. They invest in hopes of creating bright futures, expansion of business and jobs creation.

        Vulture capitalism, Sean and Rush, is essentially a direct opposite. Organizations, such as Bain, that follow the vulture model, search for and buy up failing companies. They seek the dying organizations; they don’t invest in new starts and the future, they invest in failure. They either completely restructure a company which often adversely effects employees or they simply liquidate it all together, sell its assets and move on. (Whether a company is ‘restructured’ or simply goes belly up, obviously employees are impacted negatively either way.)

        There is a difference between the two models of capitalism. To attack Gingrich, Perry and anybody else that dares draw the comparison is nothing more than the same ramrodding we’ve gotten from the ruling class of this party on behalf of Romney. He can answer for it now and try to get a solid defense in place or stumble and sweat after Tampa when Obama comes after him on this. At a time when so many are unemployed as a result of shuttered businesses or downsizing, its simply prudent to ask the questions about Bain’s business practices since that’s the basis for the majority of his business resume. If ‘corporations are people’ then discussion about the effect on jobs after a corporate restructuring is fair.

        Again, one can be a capitalist and not at all be a conservative. Somehow, the questions about Bain have evolved into a staunch defense of Romney’s conservatism. It’s reminescent of Obama’s run for the White House. Anyone that dared ask a sensitive question with the expectation of a honest answer and a fuller explanation was scorned and repudiated. How dare anybody ask pointed questions about his past or background! The re-run’s are playing now, only for the GOP candidate.

        “Mitt Romney and the Hypocrisy of Bain Capital” (blog post at American Thinker today)
        http://americanthinker.com/blog/2012/01/mitt_romney_and_the_hypocrisy_of_bain_capital.html/

        • JSobieski

          Nobody forced the owners to sell to Bain.
          Nobody prevented the employees from pooling together their resources and buying their employer.

          If in the long term, an enterprise is worth more as individual assets than it is as a holistic enterprise, keeping that enterprise open is just a form of charity. It would be by definition an inefficient use of resources.

          If its your resources, you are free to engage in charity. Operating at a loss is just another way of saying wealth destruction. Wealth destruction is just another way of saying waste. Nothing conservative, moral, or good about waste.

          Inefficient use of resources does not lead to economy growth. There is a reason why our economy is “growing” at an anemic rate.

          • jakeofalltrades

            WOW. Just wow.

            Gamecock and JSobieski, I hardly knew ye.

          • jakeofalltrades

            And this is what I get for having two RS windows open at once while working.

        • red4liberty

          Not sure why it’s taboo to delve into Romney’s Bain years. It does seem as though so-called conservatives are immediately slapping the hands of those that ask. Listening to Neal Bortz and Laura Ingraham’s radio shows yesterday and it was the “Romney Defense Show.” Same with the entire Fox & Friends show yesterday and today. Why is it anti-capitalist to ask about Romney who touts his business experience and years at Bain as a qualification? I don’t know much about those years, but I would like to know before the general. We all know Obama won’t hold back on attacks. Shouldn’t we know what we are getting into instead of blindly accepting that “Romney is the ultra-capitalist, case closed??” What is Romney afraid of?

        • hobarticus

          Romney’s business activities, but doing so at this point in the campaign is a terrible strategy for the other candidates. Romney has huge vulnerabilities on a host of issues, but instead of talking about those things, we’re having an ethics debate about basic, very legal aspects of the free market system.

          Doing so allows Romney, for once, to publicly position himself to the right of his conservative challengers. Instead of having to defend his Massachussets record, he’s defending the free market, and doing it very well (see his speech?). The candidates, and those of us who want a conservative alternative to Romney, should drop this issue, imho.

        • hobiecat

          Anyone ever watch the movie “Other Peoples Money”, with Danny De Veto? I think that was vulture capitalism.

        • hobiecat

          Anyone ever watch the movie “Other Peoples Money”, with Danny De Veto? I think that was vulture capitalism.

        • kestrel

          Since reading it this morning, the more I have read and sought to understand Bain Capital’s work, the more I am convinced that Romney’s particular brand of capitalist enterprise (the leveraged buyouts that became Bain’s main line of work) may be a liability in the general election. “Vulture capitalism” may aptly describe it.

          Romney could be helpful if he’d at least explain how Bain’s method of doing leveraged buyouts differed from the “hostile takeovers” that were common in the 1980′s.

          Looking into Bain Capital and realizing that Romney’s business background has no angle of populist appeal makes me feel ill.

          Romney can’t run on his record as Governor of Massachusetts, can’t run on having created jobs there, can’t run (credibly) on conservative values, has to avoid ObamaCare as a topic, cannot run on job creation via Bain (because it was incidental if it occurred at all, in net), and in fact, must avoid scrutiny of his work at Bain as much as he must avoid scrutiny of RomneyCare? Aaachk. This man might be our nominee?

    • redsox9687

      am i on crack? all these people that are on a crusade to kill romney for “not being conservative enough” seem to be trying to beat him now by turning themselves into occupy wall street protesters……

    • warkarma

      They never had to run the ads in South Carolina. They’ve been running on RedState for months. Leon had a diary on this just the other day, but it seems so long forgotten.

      I’m sorry, but I thought this election was about electing, you know, a Republican candidate and not re-electing Obama. For the past year, at least, Romney’s pretty much made it clear that he’s the best person for the job. At least, that’s what most Republican voters seem to think… except here.

      On RedState, he continues to be skewered on a daily basis. As I type this, I’m looking at at least two disparaging member diaries about Romney on the right hand side. And I honestly don’t get it. I’m sorry that Rick Perry can’t string together two words to save his life. I’m sorry Herman Cain can’t keep it in his pants. I’m sorry that Michele Bachmann, is, quite frankly, a basketcase. And I’m sorry that Ron Paul is, well.. I’m not really sure what he is.

      I am NOT, however, sorry, that Romney is one thing they are not. Electable. His campaign has been running like a Breitling cronograph, he hasn’t made a single mistake, and the middle (as well as the Tea Party) is warming up to him. What more do you guys want?

      Guess what: Republicans live in other parts of the US other than the Bible Belt. There’s a pretty decent contingent of us up north (East and West), where we care just a smidge less about what seems to be the base holy grail (overturning Roe v. Wade), and care just a bit more about actually winning an election against this president. And no, we’re not doing to do it with anyone in the current field running against an incumbent save Mitt Romney. Doing that requires putting our best candidate on the field, not the candidate most likely to turn the most people off and please a vaunted few with their impeccable conservative credentials.

      Here’s another thing: unless something big, and I mean really big comes up in the next few months, Mitt will be the Republican candidate. It’s all over but the shouting. You either vote for him,, or vote for Obama. Or don’t vote at all, which pretty much equals a vote for Obama. For my part, I’ll support whoever wins the nomination. There’s always worse than Obama, but I really can’t imagine what that could be.

      But please, for God’s sake, stop tearing this man to pieces.

      • redsox9687

        these people are apparently all hell-bent on killing romney because of “their unshakeable commitment to conservatism” which romney apparently lacks and then they start attacking him for being “too capitalist”…. for the life of me i honestly can’t figure out what the hell is wrong with these people

        • usedtobelib

          Yes, they are hell-bent and damned crazy. They are fine, I guess, with the re-election of one Barack H. Obama.

      • http://www.dirkworld.com dirkbelig

        First, my bona fides: I don’t like Romney much and don’t trust him. I punched his chad in 2008 as an anti-McCain vote, but have no intention of going to vote for him or any of these other worthless clowns keeping the Stupid Party fires burning bright in the primaries. However, come November, I will step up and do my patriotic duty to participate in the lawful removal of the current Emperor from the throne. I didn’t like McCain either, but was willing to do my bit to prevent Obama from getting in and wrecking things.

        That said, it’s getting VERY hard to read Red State lately because the editors have collectively gone crazy and are living up to the very worst liberal caricatures of conservatives in demanding strict purity and fealty to their anointed candidates OR ELSE! I’m already seeing hints that they’ll abandon Romney because they hate him so hard and concentrate on increasing margins in Congress. Too bad that it would be a meaningless accomplishment because Emperor Obama will merely rule by fiat, czar, recess appointment, regulatory agency, etc. Add on a couple more Kagan and Sotomayor-style Supremes and his ability to veto any attempt to repeal ObamaCare and the cake is baked and America’s goose is cooked.

        As I explained to the Romney haters at Michelle Malkin’s site, NONE of the other candidates are electable because they’ve proven themselves incompetent/insane/radioactive/single-issue. They can’t see that Romney’s wishy-washy wet-finger-check-wind tendencies are precisely what conservatives should want occupying the Oval Office because a more conservative Congress would be able to easily slap Mitt around and force him to move to the right. Get it?

        Does anyone think Obama will be more inclined to undo his damage against a Red Congress or much less? Conversely, does anyone think that Mitt will suddenly grow a steel spine and tell the Republican majority that he’s going to continue ObamaCare, especially when that would guarantee a challenge in 2016.

        It’s really not that difficult to understand if you aren’t blinded by RDS. America is at the brink of unrecoverable ruin. If Barack Obama gets re-elected, we are doomed. D-O-O-M-E-D!!! Thus, job #1 is to prevent that from happening. All other considerations are secondary. ALL OF THEM! If the rigid ideologues have their way and cheerlead the jihad against capitalism and conservatism that desperate losers Newt and Perry are waging because it strokes their MUST! KILL! ROMNEY! itch, Obama gets back in and the country dies. To participate in murdering the nation because you’re as ego-tripped as some of the candidates disqualifies you from claiming you care the least what happens to the country.

        Bottom Line: Stop Obama. Elect Romney. Make Congress redder. Replace the Vichy Congressional “leadership” for genuine small government supporters. If Romney is too weak, primary him and get a better President in 2016.

        But none of this happens if Obama is re-elected. If you think Obama would be better for the country than Romney, you’re some combination of insane and stupid. STOP! OBAMA! All other considerations are irrelevant.

        • hls87

          Seriously?

          Without strong leadership from the White House Washington will go right on expanding the welfare state and bankrupting us all. Romney won’ provide that leadership. Just as Eisenhower consolidated the New Deal and Nixon consolidated the Great Society, Romney would consolidate Obamumism. We might lose Obamacare but we would certainly gain some equally pernicious, bipartisan scheme to guarantee health insurance for all. Our slide into national decline would, if anything, accelerate under President Romney. For eight long years there would be no anti-progressive leadership in Washington. The small band of conservative Republicans in Congress would be marginalized, leaderless and impotent..

          Romney = catastrophe. The GOP is poised to go over a cliff. That’s not derangement, it’s just the brutal reality.

  • bonnman

    particularly for independents. The Supreme Court will have a ruling in and most likely will find it Constitutional and most of the controversy will quickly fade.

    • kindredsoul

      What part of the federal Constitution requires me to purchase health insurance (or anything else for that matter)? The Commerce Clause? Really? If the Supreme Court reaches that conclusion, then there is no Constitution. There is tyranny. And then it won’t be just the Massachusetts experiment that will have failed. The American experiment will have failed, too. A Supreme Court ruling will lead to conservative demands that Romney disavow his failed experiment and own it as such. The flip flop won’t be endearing.

      If the individual mandates is declared unconstitutional, moreover, then he’ll fall into the same class of tyrant that Obama has already proven himself to be. Saved by the Supreme Court, some will say. Yeah, right. How can we trust anyone who has no compunction about mandating people to buy something, to sacrifice their liberty? It’s just shameful.

      I guarantee you — whatever the outcome of the ruling — Obamacare and its evil cousin will be issues for a long, long time. It is not exaggerating to say that the fate of the Republic is in the balance. And if liberty loses, I fear for our country.

      On a lighter note, I do think Romney has a nice smile.

      • kindredsoul

        “A Supreme Court ruling UPHOLDING OBAMACARE” in the first paragraph.

      • bonnman

        if you haven’t already. Legally they make a very compelling case. Health care in this country consumes about 17% GDP so it is certainly of National importance if not already a crisis. Federal and state laws already require hospitals to provide emergency care for everyone, including the uninsured, basically an unfunded mandate which is contributing to the Nationwide health care crisis. And thats where and why they introduce a tax penalty for the uninsured, the individual mandate, remember it doesn’t force you to buy anything, thats impossible, its a tax penalty if you don’t and tax penalties are legal.

        Anyway, I don’t like Obamacare but I think 1) we can’t count on it being struck down and 2) Romney can’t use it much in the general either because of Romneycare or it gets upheld by SCOTUS opposition to it from indys will drop.

        • JSobieski

          Given the dark cloud of Obamacare and Medicare/Medicaid, how have we managed to have the first two caucus/primary elecitons without barely a whisper of substantive healthcare debate?

          I think I heard Newt mention HSAs a time or two, but otherwise our candidates have had NOTHING of substance to say on the topic.

          “I agree with Paul Ryan’s plan” is about all one hears re: Medicare.

          So far, the best policy statement on healthcare was an op ed written by the CEO of WHole Foods in the WSJ on HSAs and an op ed by Mitch Daniels.

          The inability of even primary voters to focus on a critical timely issue does not inspire confidence.

          One of the few things I liked about Bachmann is her consistent reminders that if we don’t fix this NOW, it won’t get fixed.

          • usedtobelib

            people chose to sit it out. They didn’t want it badly enough, in which case, they would have been poor candidates, in all likelihood, or they didn’t want to do all the arduous work it takes. Mitch made his choice. He was telling you it wasn’t that important to him. So perhaps we should conclude he wouldn’t have been too good at it. Rarely are we good at that we do not wish to do.

            I also think that Gov. Perry began believing the folks who told him that with no preparation, he could shimmy on up to the bar and win this thing. Know what? He believed them, which tells me something about his ego and his lack of wisdom about running for the Presidency.

            Romney actually gets criticized for the last 4+ years he has worked for this. That’s no reason to vote for him, for sure, but surely it’s no reason to criticize him. It means he wants it. Has given it thought. Has worked and sacrificed it. Countless hours of reflection and hours on the road .

            Reagan wanted it. Ran for it for over 8 years. It could be argued that he ran for it for 16 years.

            But Perry thought he could just drop into Iowa before the straw poll and walk away with everything….until he had to talk at the debates.

            It tells me that he’d be similarly unprepared for the Presidency…just like Obama.

          • bonnman

            HSAs would be a good attack on Romney for any one of the candidates to make plus would rekindle the health care debate. Its unfortunate though that Romney as the nominee wouldn’t be able to make this argument against Obama in the general because it’d be just too easy to point to Massachusetts.

    • lineholder

      Bonnman, I don’t mean to be rude, and this isn’t directed at you personally, but we have to find a way to turn back the tide on O-care, even if SCOTUS does rule the mandate is constitutional.

      Look over in the Red Hot column, and you’ll find a comment that Daniel posted earlier today showing that in 2010, health care costs consumed 17.9% of our GDP. When O-care was first suggested back in the summer of 2009, we were looking at 16% of our GDP. Within 18 months, that jumped to 18% of our GDP.

      What has been projected is that within 5 years, under O-care, our health care costs will consume 25% of our GDP. That’s a conservative estimate. For one reason, those estimates have included projections of growth in our GDP along with projection of health care costs (and actual growth has turned out to be lower than projected growth for two years now, and if this trend continues, the amount of our GDP that is consumed by health care costs will increase more rapidly than projected). The second reason is that the Dems underestimated the costs involved in implementation and sustaining O-care so that it could be scored as a net loss by the CBO, so the rate at which health care costs will consume our GDP will grow more rapidly in this context as well.

      We have to get out from under this monstrosity before it is too late. If that means that those of us on the R side of the fence push the issue and bring it about for calls of repeal to begin once again, then that’s what we should do.

    • Bill S

      And you see how that quieted down.

      Logic #FAIL

    • maybenexttime

      The Supreme Court may uphold the notion of forcing people to buy health insurance, however the controversy of making those folks do so is unlikely to disappear.

      Romney will be debating from a defensive position on many things, including Obamacare. Even worse, Romney has gone through many of the GOP debates without his rivasl laying a glove on him. I doubt Obama is going to be as gracious this fall. That begs the question whether Romney can withstand the fire since he hasn’t been effectively battle-tested on his many oscillating policy positions.

      Abortion. Climate change. Gay marriage. Gun control. Government-mandated health care. Romney will be walking through a minefield of his own making during the presidential debates.

      • hobarticus

        Agree with OP that the court will not likely be much help here. The court’s interpretation of the commerce clause got much broader over the 20th century. The NLRB, and totally unrelated stuff like the civil rights act and nationwide gun control laws have all been upheld on commerce clause grounds. Hard to see the conservatives getting Kennedy on their side, assuming they even want to.

        Now, with Romney as the likely nominee, it’s hard to see where the movement for a repeal gets started. Republican voters have spoken, and apparently they want the guy who enacted Obamacare before Obama did. I continue to be amazed by this.

        • jakeofalltrades

          They can’t just enact excise taxes for any reason – they need a Constitutional reason. And the commerce clause has been weakening in modern cases.

          • bonnman

            With health care at 17% to18% of GDP they have plenty of reason.

  • buddyp

    First, I do want to make an important distinction. Romney’s opponents aren’t (or at least aren’t just) making the electability argument, i.e., saying that Obama will attack Romney over Bain. Rather, they themselves are attacking Romney over Bain. They are claiming that they think he did terrible things. IMHO, if they believe that, they are troubling from the standpoint of economic conservatism, and if they don’t believe that, they are showing a blatant lack of integrity (although granted, Flip Romney is the king of lack of integrity so I’m not implying they are worse than him overall).

    Now then, I think Daniel makes an excellent point. And Romney’s spin on the Romneycare issue has always struck me as a disingenuous exaggeration of the differences and discounting of the similarities on his part. And yes, he will have more trouble than the others (except perhaps Newt) in criticizing Obamacare in the general election.

    • jakeofalltrades

      So we have to look at that experience, and it turns out he was more into firing people than hiring them. We’re attacking his lack of job creation at Bain because Romney raised the issue.

      There is nothing morally wrong with what Romney did, but this does mean he has no job creation issue. But to establish that, we must attack his record at Bain, or else his implicit assertion that he was a job creator in the private sector will stand.

      • buddyp

        Now you’re at least making an argument that makes some sense in terms of argumentation. That said, I still think your missing a couple of things.

        First of all, Gingrich, Perry and Huntsman ARE attacking Romney’s record at Bain on moral grounds. They are not just, as you suggest, arguing that his claim of job creation is invalid or should be discounted because of those who lost their jobs.

        Second, although I don’t have figures, I think you are overstating the case to force it into a negative (rather than just less positive than Romney claims). Depending on how one looks at it (and job “creation” and “loss” is not a clear-cut analytical matter), I think it’s likely more jobs were created as a result of his work at Bain than were lost, particularly if we consider indirect effects of redeploying resources to more productive uses even in the cases of job losses.

        Third, you are overlooking the benefit of even the layoffs. “Creative destruction” is an important dynamic in capitalism. It is needed to redeploy resources from less productive, economically unjustifiable uses toward more productive uses, and it is largely through that process that living standards rise over time. After all, technology often displaces a great many workers, but we don’t say that technology is therefore a bad thing, because if it means higher productivity, in general almost all of us will eventually be better off. Or would you have preferred farms never used tractors so farm workers didn’t lose jobs and a much greater portion of our workforce were still needed to produce our food? I sure wouldn’t. Would you prefer information technology like computers or even calculators were never used, again so companies weren’t able to do more with fewer people and therefore lay people off?

        • aesthete

          because it would have drawn the same attention on Bain Capital and Romney’s connection to it, yet still been a good fig leaf for anti-Romneys.

        • jakeofalltrades

          This is about expediency. Romney implicitly raised Bain to support the assertion that he would be good for job creation.

          We are *helping* him make that argument if he wants to, by pointing out the counter-intuitive fact that the direct consequences of his actions were a net loss in jobs. This gives him a springboard to point out to the unemployed electorate that layoffs are good for the economy. We’re helping him, you see.

          • buddyp

            If you have a link to some data or analysis that shows net job loss even in a direct sense at companies Bain invested in, please provide it. Otherwise, on what basis do you claim it has been net negative?

            It is still unethical (if insincere) or quite antithetical to economic and philosophical conservatism for the other candidates (and their supporters) to attack Romney for the supposed immorality of those layoffs, let alone the supposedly highly undesirable nature of them.

            In other words, see my three points in my previous comment, which you haven’t addressed at all.

          • jakeofalltrades

            Ethics is debatable in a campaign. I recall a certain rock, a certain vaccine, and a certain veto-proof tuition law. If the other parties can open fire with utter nonsense, then so can Perry, and by my count they all have it coming.

          • jakeofalltrades

            I did address your three points. I agreed with them. But I’m almost always facetious, so it was probably good to ask.

          • JSobieski

            sooner or later.

          • jakeofalltrades

            ?

          • JSobieski

            and by arguing that government shouldn’t be making the kinds of investment decisions that companies like Bain make.

            Solyndra is a problem.

            Finding a smarter government guy to make smarter Solyndra-like decisions is not the solution, and that is all Romney’s Bain experience could be used to show.

          • buddyp

            …where we started on the other thread. You kinda sorta offer up some defense of the ethics/appropriateness of the attacks (including gross misrepresentation of Romney’s line re: firing people), but in the end you say you really don’t care, because any means to the end of stopping Romney is fine with you (and actually desirable if effective).

            And then you offer up yet another supposed defense that is completely superfluous given that you think ethics and fairness and appropriateness of any sort are all non-considerations when you say that it’s justified because, at least in Perry’s case (per your argument), others did similar things to Perry.

            I do think ethics and integrity matter.

            I don’t think “the other guy did it too” is some universal “Get Out of Lameness Free” card.

            I do think people who want to be the Republican nominee for the presidency of the United States shouldn’t adopt Occupy Wall St rhetoric.

            And I think you should just stick with your “I don’t care / anything is ok with me as long as it stops the guy I don’t like” position, which is where you keep ending up anyway as your other arguments are revealed as weak.

          • jakeofalltrades

            (nt)

        • dpmapper

          Huntsman is not. He only made one snide crack at Mitt’s stupid “like to fire” line, but didn’t go after Bain in general.

          • goodgovernance

            of Massachusetts, though. Which is totally fair game. Romney’s not running for CEO of a new venture firm, he wants to be in public office. We ought to look at his record when he was previously in public office.

          • jakeofalltrades

            n//t

          • buddyp

            …how did you like the show?

            Yes, that line from Huntsman is exactly to what I was referring. Of course that counts as this type of attack. Not only that, in doing so he disingenuously grossly misrepresented what Romney had said. Which is disappointing for me, because I generally like Huntsman and he might be my top choice. But I have to think he knew he was grossly misleading people on when he uttered that (clearly planned) soundbite.

          • dpmapper

            Yes, it was a misrepresentation. No debate there.

            However, he didn’t go into any depth. He didn’t mention Bain, he didn’t mention Romney making money off of it, it was more just an allusion to the stupid line. It was just a few hours after the reports of Romney’s gaffe came out (IIRC) and I suspect he was just trying to have fun with it – a little dig at Romney. It clearly was not meant to be a reasoned argument against Bain, whether or not it was a canned line.

            Perry and Gingrich, on the other hand, made Bain the central core of a sustained critique, and did so (or planned to do so) well before the Romney gaffe.

          • jakeofalltrades

            ??

          • buddyp

            It seems Huntsman planned to use that line, and I don’t think he would have used it if there weren’t the context of the attacks re: Bain. In other words, he stuck the knife in clean and quick and perhaps not quite as deeply, but it still counts.

      • aesthete

        and should have been what Perry, et al had gone with.

      • jonbg

        Whose interests will Mitt Romney look out for? His Own and that of his millionaire campaign contributors.

        How do we know? We need only look at his record at Bain. He enriched himself and Bain at the expense of stockholders, taxpayers, debt holders and workers.

        1. Mitt Romney’s company engaged in Medicare Fraud at the expense of taxpayers, the government, and seniors so he could make more money for himself and his wealthy friends.

        Mitt Romney and Bain made large profits from the sale of a medical testing company whose revenues were generated in part from a criminal scheme to fraudulently bill the federal Medicare system for unnecessary blood tests.

        Mitt Romney personally made $473,000 when Corning Inc. purchased Damon Corp. Bain made a profit of $7.4 million.

        In 1996, Damon Corp. pleaded guilty a federal conspiracy charge of defrauding the government of $25 million between 1988 and 1993.

        Mitt Romney personally served on the board of Damon from 1990-1993.

        The company paid a fine of $119 million for Medicare Fraud. At that time, its was the largest fine in history for Medicare Fraud.

        The Medicare fraud scheme was described by then the US Attorney as “a case, pure and simple, of corporate greed run amok.”

        2. Mitt Romney sat on the board of Staples while Staples made an ill-fated investment in one of Mitt’s companies. Staples’ shareholders lost money while Mitt Romney made money on the deal.

        Bain did well and so did Romney. Mitt Romney earned about $100,000 from his share of the profits. Staples shareholders did not do so well. The $140 million transaction was written off as a total loss two years later.

        But, what if Bain had not sold the company to Staples? What if no other buyer had come along? Then, Bain would have lost its entire investment in the firm when the firm failed.

        3. Mitt Romney’s company applied for government subsidies while Mitt Romney and Bain bled the company dry to enrich Mitt, Bain, and his investors. The bankrupt company cost the government millions while Mitt Romney, Bain and his millionaire investors made millions.

        4. Mitt Romney & Bain raided the pension funds at companies they took over, leaving workers with much smaller pensions than the workers were owed. In some cases, the government had to step in and assume the pension obligations.

        Is this the example of an exemplary businessman? Or an immoral one who would do anything to make a buck?

        Mitt Romney will say anything to win. And he was willing to do anything to make millions for himself, Bain and his millionaire investors.

        The issue is not capitalism or even vulture capitalism – it is the business practices of Mitt Romney.

        Everyone already knows that Mitt will say anything to win. Now, they know he was willing to do anything to benefit himself and his millionaire investors.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          nt

          • jakeofalltrades

            When it reaches this level of fervor, that’s when the email chains start. I give it two months before everyone on Earth gets at least one chain mail about how evil Romney robbed orphans at Bain Capital.

            And they get passed around like Lindsay Lohan because people actually fall for it.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            At Bain they ATE the orphans…

          • jakeofalltrades

            heh heh

          • aesthete

            so that the eeeevul libertarian Koch brothers could join in the feast.

            The orphans were too young and pure for this world!!

          • jakeofalltrades

            HA!

          • buddyp

            …was a relatively “modest proposal” at Bain.

          • aesthete

            Heh.

          • buddyp

            Give that player the medium-size teddy bear.

            Or better yet, …..

          • buddyp

            …the only difference between comments on this topic from Perry, Gingrich, Hunstman and you vs. that comment by “jonbg” is that the latter has more detail.

            Otherwise it’s getting hard to tell you guys apart. That’s what happens when Republican presidential candidates and their supporters adopt the rhetoric of OWS. Congrats. Thanks a pantload.

        • usedtobelib

          How about this: ever gotten a great deal by buying a business from one who is about to lose a lease?

          How about this: have you ever bought something at a going-out-of-business sale?

          How about this? Ever bought something at a reduced price when the seller had to rid himself of inventory at the end of the year?

          Ever buy a car when you knew the lot was full of cars they couldn’t get rid of because of slow economic times?

          Would you call all of these buying opportunities “shameless,” or “unethical” or “vulturism”?

          I guess both Newt and Perry would.

          Instead, I find that they were good business decisions to do things like buy a car when the price was good. Buy a house when the price was good; then, improve it and the neighborhood, and sell it at a profit.

          Each time these transactions above take place, it’s not just the new lease-holder that benefitted; it’s also the guy whose business was in trouble and is now no longer stuck with the remaining years on the lease.

          The salesman who sells the car still gets his cut as does the dealer as does the state and the local entities.

          Anyway, if Newt and Perry think Bain is what is wrong with America, (of course they don’t, they just hate the fact that they are losing) then I don’t want either of them as my President.

          If I take over a lemonade stand that’s in trouble, they’ll claim I made money at the expense of another.

          Pathetic. This is what Democrats used to do to each other.

          • hls87

            Read the Wall Street Journal’s analysis of Romney’s record at Bain and consider that question. Bain made money by taking grossly inflated management fees from failing companies. That’s not free enterprise; it doesn’t represent cleverly profiting from a market opportunity.. How could companies on their way to bankruptcy court raise the cash Bain siphoned off? That was possible because, due to loose monetary policy, the financial system was awash with funds that needed to go someplace. Bain didn’t, for the most part, idenify and exploit market opportunities. It took advantage of an opportunity created by inrusive, destructive government policy.

            Bain’s business model wasn’t illegal, but it was certainly disreputable. It was also a beautiful illustration of the worst flaws in our economic order. Romney has always been part of the problem. He isn’t going to be part of the solution. His opponents are absolutely right about that. The knee-jerk, ignorant defense of Romney’s record is foolish in the exreme.

          • JSobieski

            The world is filled with overpriced products and overpriced services.

            If Bain didn’t offer a financially attractive proposition, they would never have been brought in in the first place.

            Is creative destruction ugly? Yes. But unless the criticisms go to something actually unethical, its like criticizing someone from being in the garbage dump business or the mortuary business. Both are ugly businesses, but being successful at them shouldn’t be a negative.

          • hls87

            But nobody would defend an undertaker who took wedding rings and gold fillings from a corpse in his care. That’s the correct analogy to Bain’s business. Of course it’s attractive for the owners of a failing company to sell part of their stock at almost any price. At least they realize some value. But there is no way to defend a firm that takes control of a failing corporation, gets it to borrow money it can’t repay, and pockets enough of that money to come out of the transaction with a profit. That isn’t the free economy at work. Quite the reverse.

    • The_Rebel

      Romney won’t have to spend too much time on ObamaCare. Fully 61% of voters said that the economy was issue #1, followed by the budget deficit at 24%. Healthcare was last in the list at 5%, even after abortion at 6%. He won in virtually all demographic groups, age education, gender, urban, suburban and rural.

      If all the anti-Romney people have left is Romneycare, it’s all over but the shouting. These exit polls show that ObamaCare should not be our “biggest campaign weapon”. The more we take our focus off of the economy and the budget deficit, the more we will be out of step with the electorate.

      Let’s start thinking more like Republicans rather than like the Democrats, as we have with our anti-capitalist screeds over the past few days.

      • maybenexttime

        Nobody expects the health care issue to dominate presidential debates this fall. However, Romney’s oscillation on various issues (from guns to gays to global warming) will be pointed out ad nauseum. If you think what Rick Perry or Newt Gingrich has said about Mitt is shocking, just wait until the DNC gets done with him.

        The last liberal flip-flopper from Massachusetts who ran against an incumbent president with public approval hovering around 50% lost his race in 2004. History does tend to repeat itself, regardless of who has the D or R behind their name.

        • The_Rebel

          that ObamaCare is going to be front and center, witness the statement “biggest campaign weapon”. And if you want to compare Romney to Kerry, then you really are thinking more like a Democrat.

          • maybenexttime

            Kerry and Romney had nearly identical positions on assault weapons, gay rights, abortion, and the belief that government should force people to buy health insurance. I’m not thinking like a Democrat. I’m pointing out that on certain key conservative issues, there’s absolutely no daylight between Romney and Kerry.

            Romney decided by himself to stake out those positions (then flip on them) similar to what John Kerry did back in 2004. I’m pointing out that the electorate tends to view candidates with a history of multiple policy stances very skeptically. George W Bush was able to seize on that skepticism to beat Kerry in a close race. There’s no doubt Obama’s re-election team could do the same thing in November.

            Do we want a candidate that can be exploited in such a way, especially when history shows how difficult the path to victory becomes?

  • http://redmerrimack.blogspot.com/ charliebravoNH

    I brought this subject up here on Redstate over year ago.

    http://www.redstate.com/charliebravonh/2011/01/05/michael-merlina-mitt-romneys-joe-the-plumber/

    • Ann_W

      nt

      • BrendanW

        as bad as mitt’s romneycare will be the fact other candidates won’t attack on it shows they are bad candidates too, and won’t do a good job attacking Obama/

        I wish Perry has said (in response to Mitt’s critique of ponzi language):

        Mitt – I know you would think that language is harsh. You have an anti-free market record as governor, creating the pilot program for Obamacare in MA. Like all gov entitlement programs its got major problems, unlike SS which worked for 70+ years and is starting to fail now, your healthcare plan is failing after only 5 years.

        Something along those lines would have forced Mitt to repudiate Romneycare (I believe he didn’t because he’s sensitive to 2008 flip flop charges). But perry wilted like a violet. Perry’s heart was not in this campaign, which is a shame, because if he had brought his A game, he might be in the Santorum spot right now, or even have turned it into a Mitt v Perry primary (which would have helped either candidate get ready for BHO.)

        I do think people around here over emphasize tea party conservatives affinity for red state type policies. I think the tea party may be more: balanced budget, rule of law, constitution, then social issues focused… might explain Romney and Paul doing better than Perry.

        • ethos

          They said that the first Tea Party was part of the Ron Paul movement. So perhaps that DOES explain why Paul is doing so well.

          • mbrat42

            I attended the first big Tea Party. Out of the 6 of us who went together, 2 are now Ron Paul supporters.

      • usedtobelib

        Occupiers? Become Occupiers?

        Should Gov. Perry be elected, would he call people who make money legally “vultures.”

        How that for a GOP message?

        Hey, Gov. Perry just might be a secret socialist.

  • willstauff

    Has previous criticism of Romneycare moved the needle? No. It hasn’t changed anyone in Romney’s camp to jump ship. It’s old news. It’s been dismissed already.

    • maybenexttime

      Romney has never had to face Obama in a debate and say, “Mr. President I know you stole my idea for health care reform. Let’s not talk about that, because my own party is apparently cool with what happened.”

      Romney’s flip on government-mandated heath insurance is going to get a whole new audience this fall. It could be potentially troublesome for him, especially if the Supreme Court decides that upholding Obamneycare is constitutional.

      Romney will be unable to effectively wage a war against this policy, since his fingerprints are all over it.

  • yahoo

    Be nice if Republican candidates actually proposed what they would do on healthcare instead of the proclamation about repealing Obamacare. Public wants answers, not naysaying.

    • Samsara

      The last time I looked at the Constitution, the President does not have the power to repeal laws. There are not going to be sixty votes in the Senate to repeal Obamacare. Whoever is elected is going to be implementing Obamacare, no repealing it. I guess Romney would be qualified to do that, since he is very familiar with the law.

      • mccoypauley

        not to enforce Obamacare at the executive level if he feels it is unconstitutional.

        Then it would be up to the Congress to impeach him if they felt otherwise.

        Don’t quote me on that, but I am fairly sure it is right.

        • Greg

          Look at what is currently happening with regulator power grabs..

        • Samsara

          The Supreme Court will rule on the individual mandate part of Obamacare later this year. That is the only part that has been challenged as unconstitutional, and the court is probably going to rule that it is constitutional. At that point, if a Republican President decides not to follow the law…well, that sets a very dangerous precedent.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          spend the appropriation. Been to Court, decided back in Nixon’s day, sorry I don’t have a cite for you.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            than the individual mandate.

          • Samsara

            Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoundment_Control_Act_of_1974

            Thanks

  • lineholder

    It may come to nothing, and if it does, that’s fine.

    Is there anyone that you or Erick or any of the other moderators know who has enough knowledge about what is included in this legislation that they could break it down into relatively simple sections and show to what extent our burden of costs will be increasing and how quickly this might take place?

    If there is such a person, would it be possible to allow them to post diaries at this site, and if necessary, I’ll email a copy of that diary to every person that I know along with all the Republican candidates and the individual Republican County offices in my state to try to get the word out. I can do this much. They have contact lists and email addresses of voters, don’t they? Maybe we still have time left to do something like this.

    It seems that the door of opportunity is closing on us where this is concerned, so I had to ask.

    • vangoghssister

      That is an excellent idea. As mentioned in my post below, I work for a large healthcare system. Let me ask around and see what I can find. I may be able to at least provide information about how the legislation will affect your family physician, which in turn will affect you. I’ll let you know what I find as soon as I can.

      • lineholder

        for now, I’m just a student, working outside the system.

        What a lot of people don’t understand at this point is that when employer dumping kicks in, if the individual mandate is supported, then all those people will be purchasing their health insurance via the exchange, which is exactly what the left has planned to happen.

        Each household of four earning less than 100K per year will be eligible for some sort of subsidy (although it increases as income increases) and the total subsidy costs were grossly underestimated when the legislation was written.

        When that happens…where is the money going to come from? Increased taxes? Will gov’t print more currency? If so, we can watch inflation and cost of consumer goods rise through the roof!

        • lineholder

          .

          • marktx

            Unless the courts or congress stops it, ObamaCare will be fully implemented in 2014. There’s already a huge tax increase that kicks in to pay for it starting next year.

            The health insurance companies are already gearing up for Obamacare. They have raised premiums by 25% over the last year as a result of some of the mandates already imposed by ObamaCare. Eventually the government subsidies will kick in for a sizable percentage of the population. At that point people won’t want to repeal Obamacare because in their minds they will be receiving something for free.

            Within five years, the private health insurance market will dry up due to small profit margins. While employer based insurance will continue, the cost pressures employers will face will force many companies to eliminate health insurance for their employees. At that point the government will become the defacto insurer…essentially socialized medicine. The problem is that once that occurs, there won’t be enough money to pay for ObamaCare without significant tax increases and rationing of care. Furthermore, every healthcare expert I’ve heard has suggested that ObamaCare does not contain costs.Rather, it makes the cost issue even worse.

            There’s a reason Obama intentionally delayed the full implementation of ObamaCare until after the 2012 election. He wanted to run for reelection without having to face the wrath of the populace over his socialized medicine scheme.

            The fact that RomneyCare was the blue print for ObamaCare makes it even harder to stomach.

      • cbartlett

        Just remember another issue – one of the most promising healthcare reform ideas is requiring individual responsibility for healthcare in the form of HSA accounts along with a type of major medical policy. ObamaCare will basically force all ins companies to give up HSA’s.

  • David123

    Link is here
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/287615/romneycare-and-obamacare-rick-santorum

    • mccoypauley

      Santy and Newt are the last two people who can criticize Obamacare.

      The only credible critics were Bachmann, Paul and Perry.

  • usedtobelib

    Hannity call Mitt Romney a “vulture capitalist.”

    Gov. Perry has not been my choice since I heard him in the first three or four debates he participated in, but I had every reason to think him a decent guy and a good Republican.

    No more. The guy is in the crapper with me, worse than the crapper. Should either he or Newt get the nomination, after posing as Obama and Pelosi in their words, I will sit out this election.

    You Perry supporters: you love to lay the wood on other candidates for being unethical, ungenuine, and more. Well, your candidate has just given for the last two days or so, all the video footage that Barack Obama has to run for his re-election campaign.

    What would Reagan think? My gawd.

    • carolina

      check out the article at theHill.com. They say it is better to get this issue to ‘old news’ now, during the primary, before the dems try to make a big deal out of it during the general election.

    • carolina

      check out the article at theHill.com. They say it is better to get this issue to ‘old news’ now, during the primary, before the dems try to make a big deal out of it during the general election.

    • ajdx3

      Perry just disqualified himself from the Republican Primary, and Newt is right behind him.

    • thosjefferson

      My guess: Erick Erickson is going to go anti-capitalist along with his favorite Perry and next favorite Newt. He’s blindly anti-Romney just like they are.

    • jakeofalltrades

      Gee, who woulda thought?

    • texastaxpayer

      But lets assume you do. What percentage of the general population is going to share your admiration for a man who preys on resource rich companies for the sole purpose of siphoning off the resources and scrapping the workforce? Sure I will just bet in this political climateRomney is going to find a wave of support in the general. Romney supporters for months have been demanding we vote to defeat obama. Well its time to puy your vote were your mouth is, Romney is damaged goods. Supporting him will all but guarantee am Obama second term. Your move.
      http://www.whenmittromneycametotown.com/

      • hls87

        Bain preyed on resource poor companies that had to borrow the funds that Bain took out as management fees. This was possible only because the government has distorted our financial markets so badly. And this is a shining example of capitalism in action!

  • vangoghssister

    Besides Romney’s stint at Bain, being governor and running for whatever office struck his fancy at the time, what has this man done all of his life? The attacks on the Bain issue by the other candidates are regrettable, but Romney had no good defense of himself either. I hope he realizes these were just little bitty flicks on the nose compared to what’s coming if he should, God forbid, end up as the R nominee.

    What I don’t understand is why anyone would think he is the best candidate to take on Obama and win. He cannot attack Obamacare without making himself look like a fool. How will he defend the fact that Romneycare caused health insurance premiums in Mass become the highest in the nation? I work for one of the largest nonprofit healthcare systems in my state. There are 11 hospitals, 7 of them rural, spread out over the state. Once Obamacare is fully implemented (2014?), we are projected to lose $178,000,000+ yearly, although they have told us that is a best case projection. We are working steadily to partner with more and more physicians – they become “employees/partners” of the system and both share the burden of the financial impact. Many physicians are leaving medicine altogether, some are leaving the country. I personally know one ER physician who moved to New Zealand to get away from Obama and has no plans to return until he is out of office and Obamacare has been repealed. I look forward to the day when he and his family return.

    I hope Dr. S will write a piece on the effects of this legislation from a physician’s point of view. I’m sure he can add reams to the horror story that is Obamacare!

    • thosjefferson

      Listen to Jack Welch:

      http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000066368

      There has never been a more accomplished and experienced candidate for President than Mitt Romney.

      You’ve got a trio of career politicians who are demonstrating their ignorance of basic economics and business. We’re lucky they’re being exposed now, so there’s no chance they’ll ever win a primary.

      • texastaxpayer

        Romney failed as governor of Massachusetts and I can prove it with two stats.
        1.) 47th out of 50 in job creation during an economic growth cycle for the rest of the country. For all Romney’s talk about understanding the economy and his record of job creation. When you actually look at the numbers he failed. Most of all he damaged the economy permanently with his signature legislation Romneycare. It has been demonstrated numerous times in one study after another to have cost billions in budget deficits and tens of thousands of jobs. This doesn’t even include his environmental policies that where the blue print for Obama’s cap and trade legislation.
        2.) 34% approval rating. It’s common for Romney supporters to credit Mittens with the very few bright spots of his tenure while blaming the democratic legislature for his failures. However an honest look at Romney’s term provides for a very different picture. Even after Romney’s “compromises” the electorate of Massachusetts overwhelmingly rejected his leadership. His numbers where so bad in fact he couldn’t even run for reelection with any credibility.

        As more and more of Romney’s business practices come to light its important to remember this guy has already failed in government. His “business experience” is really all he has to talk about. You will have to decide for yourself if his years as a vulture capitalist qualify him to lead the free world. But to suggest he is the most qualified candidate ever much less in the current field is not only laughable its frankly pathetic.
        Desperate much?

  • usedtobelib

    When you’ve lost Hannity, you know you’ve gone too far.

    Luntz said that essentially their attacks on Bain will re-elect Obama.

    • Kyle-MI

      Do you seriously think that the Obama campaign doesn’t know all the juicy details about Bain? Do you think they wouldn’t use this issue just because GOP candidates didn’t? Do you think Luntz doesn’t know this?

      • lineholder

        I think that regardless of what some of our pundits might be saying right now, Obama et. al. would have played the Wall Street angle for everything they are worth and then some. They would beat at Romney unmercilessly with Bain time and time again. At least this way, the public gets innoculated to some of it in advance, and it won’t get dumped on them during the general election.

        The left won’t touch him on Romneycare, because it’s too close to Obama’s “signature legislation”.

      • 6eorge Jetson

        for it to come out now and have to sit on the shelf for a while than for it to be fresh goods when Obama uses it.

        • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

          …is going to be effective in the general.

          • Kyle-MI

            The Romney team now has no excuse for being caught off guard in the general. It may sound strange, but I hope some not-Romney candidate keeps up the attack until team Romney finds the right defense.

    • Jeff

      to say the same thing about a conservative losing Hannity.

      It’s kind of annoying that the negatives about each other are all most of the candidates have to say in this cycle —–
      then again – whenever Gov. Perry opened his mouth to state a policy (illegal immigration —-Let’s go back to Iraq) he put his cowboy boots in mouth – so maybe he’s better off talking about someone else than committing foot in mouth syndrome.

      But – he broke the 11th Commandment — of Reagan – Thou shalt not speak badly of thy fellow Republican…

      We’ll see that if all those who wish President Reagan could be resurrected and run again will spank him for that.

      I doubt it – if they felt Gov Perry was the Reagan guy.

      I also think Luntz is guilty of hand-wringing. This was going to come out anyhow – if Mr. Romney gets the nod – might as well get it over with.

    • texastaxpayer

      http://www.therightscoop.com/frank-luntz-rips-perry-and-bachamnn/
      As demonstrated by the link above Luntz and Hannity have been stacking the deck. For Sean Hannity to support the architect of Obamacare, they guy that provided the blue prints for Cap and Trade and who represents the very worse form of greed in our system demonstrates I think irrefutable proof he is nothing more than a party hack. He proclaimed the media dead in 2008, well FAUX died in 2012 with its uniform shilling, covering and campaigning for Romney. I personally don’t even watch or listen to Hannity any longer and he used to be a DVRed staple.

      • znjs

        Anyone who got their news from a variety of sources could tell that Fox has been anything but fair and balanced. They have a very clear slant – Establishment Republican. When the tea party was useful to the establishment they fell over themselves praising and even promoting events. Now the establishment wants Romney. So anyone who doesn’t gets dropped off. Just remember this if Obama wins re-election – then you can expect all the stories to be how the party should’ve listened to the tea party again. You’ll be useful again. But expect to be dropped as soon as 2016 comes around.

  • ethos

    Newt and Perry, combined 23% in Iowa, 10% in New Hampshire; Resorting to attacks on venture capitalism from the left.

    Santorum, 24% in Iowa, 10% in New Hampshire; not resorting to attacks on venture capitalism from the left.

    Santorum is comfortable as the Non-Romney, isn’t using the Left’s playbook to contrast himself against Romney. Newt/Perry, desperate.

    Romneycare vs Obamacare, a perfect platform to defend state rights. Critiques on Romney’s private sector experience, a perfect platform to defend free market values. Sharp contrasts to define the Republican party.

  • furiouschads

    Wooden
    Inevitable
    Electable (I don’t like him but normal people will vote for him.)
    Privileged
    Well funded
    Moderate
    From Mass.
    Flipflopper

    • dpmapper

      That’s all.

    • texastaxpayer

      Can we afford our own Kerry in 2012? Might as well get out your hope and change tshirt and join OWS NOW….

  • goodgovernance

    He may have won tonight, but the attacks of the past 48 hours shows that Romney is nowhere near the invulnerable general election candidate that his supporters have made him out to be.

    Right or wrong, the Bain attacks put Romney on the defensive. Let me distill the arguments in a simple conversation:

    Romney: I’m a job creator! I created a lot of jobs when I was at Bain.

    Non-Romney: Waitaminute. You actually destroyed a lot more jobs than you created, Mitt. So why should we believe that you would know how to create jobs as president?

    Romney: I don’t have to answer these questions! Job destruction is an essential part of capitalism!

    Non-Romney: Oh-kay… you’re still not a job creator, are you, Mitt?

    The important thing here is that Romney’s supposed strength is really something that can be used against him. A nominee Romney will always be defending his record too much to really go after Obama. And without his aura of being a “job creator,” what is there to make Mitt appealing to independents?

    I shake my head at the fact 25% is about to beat 75%. Let’s hand it to the Establishment – they really showed us this time who’s in charge of this party.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      try again

      • goodgovernance

        The point here is Romney was no “jobs creator” in the way most people like to think of the idea. So what about Mitt makes him appealing in the general election?

        Romney will be on defense, not offense against Obama.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          participants. He saved one Bain twice and Bain Capital. He believes in American exceptionalism and understands the threat from evil abroad. Finally, he is not Obama and that is huge.

          • texastaxpayer

            making minimum wage at staples, dominos and sports authority are all wearing I heart Romney tshirts. Guess his hypocrisy for attacking Governor perry for creating minimum wage jobs in texas is lost on you too?

          • federalfarmer1

            And shows the danger to conservative principles when conservatives tie themselves to a candidate instead of principles.

            I favored Newt because I thought he would be best at educating the electorate about conservative principles. He’s lost me with this goofball attack on bain, after he tried it and then backed away from it once already. Bain makes money by fixing companies. That’s a good thing. I’m done with Newt and neutral again. Maybe ill end up with santorum. Ugh.

          • texastaxpayer

            I doubt you are even capable of understanding how foolish you look right now. Romney made the demonstrably false accuasations when Perry first entered the race that 40% of the jobs Perry created in Texas where low pay and minimum wage. Somehow it is now “a danger to conservative principles” to point out that Stapels, Sports Authority and Dominos the very companies Romney uses to tout his job creation skills are dominated with minimum wage workers? Talk about dishonest, disingenious and clueless.

    • marktx

      If Romney is to be defeated, one conservative candidate must unite the 75% that opposes Romney. But conservatives have themselves to blame for wasting votes on candidates like Bachmann and Santorum in Iowa when it was clear that neither of them were going to be the nominee. And now we have another futile RS push for Rick Perry to regroup. Dumb mistake, as Perry couldn’t win in Iowa even though he spent millions.

      There’s really only one candidate that Romney fears in the primaries, and he is Newt Gingrich. I’m not a Gingrich supporter, but at this point if Romney is to be stopped, conservatives should ask Santorum and Perry to drop out, clearing the way for a potential Gingrich consolidation of the conservative vote. If there isn’t a consolidation, Romney will be the nominee after he wins South Carolina.

      • lepelerin

        Won’t he be a pain to deal with in SC?

        • Jeff

          disregard Ron Paul at their peril (Sarah Palin)

          I have a colleague who does polling and Paul is in 2nd place for the long haul in a large number of states. His internals are even stronger than Gov. Romney’s. They are true believers and will likely want a large voice in the platform committee.

          • znjs

            Asked in an interview on CNN’s “John King, USA” last week about whether he might hold onto his delegates and attempt to force the GOP to alter its platform on national security or economic policy, Paul said, “That sounds like a lot of fun.” He added that scenario “might be a way for me to promote the things I believe in, and that is a political action.”
            http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/11/politics/gop-nh-paul/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

            He’s clearly planning on doing something at the convention. He knows he’s not going to win, but he’s going to demand his pound of flesh. My guess would be something related to the Fed, but I wish we knew for sure exactly what his plan is.

      • Jeff

        It’s about 40% – Congressman Paul – like it or not – will track about 20% for as long as he cares to stay in the race. He took about 1/3 to 2/5 of the Tea Party with him as “Libertarian Conservatives” .

      • hls87

        He was Speaker of the House 13 years ago.Since then he’s been a professional bloviator and influence peddler. He’s a nonstarter. His candidacy is a fantasy, just like Santorum’s and Bachmann’s. It was always either Perry or Romney and it looks as though the GOP has chosen — poorly.

  • krish

    If Romney is so proud of his business accomplishments, why can’t he come out & say why he had to close factories & shutter businesses. Explain it is for the best use of capital. The reason is it is not always the case!
    I was part of a company which was bought by KKR. Overall company was doing poorly, but one division was losing money while two other divisions were making lots of money. KKR came in & made some changes but unfortunately shut down/sold all divisions with 100s to 1000s looking for new job. The made bundles of money.
    I understand when there is better technology that can do the same job better/cheaper or very old factories that cannot make products competitively etc., the capital should be used for better purposes. I get that but if you look in to the deals these buyout firms carry out & there are many instances where the reasoning is something else – Make a quick buck! I am not saying there is something inherently wrong with that but own up to your actions! KKR, Bain & other leverage buyout firms buy firms with the only purpose of closing factories & selling the assets to make the products offshore or sell the brands to competitors etc. Nobody wants to look in to their actions because of they are afraid what they will find especially in difficult times like these! Romney & other republicans are attacking Newt for bringing it up because it will bring the ugly side of leverage buyout firms & the way they make money! Newt, Perry & Huntsman should question Romney to come clean since there are lot skeletons in the closet. I am reminded of TARP when Bush & his cronies used our money to bail out their friends. It is time conservatives do not give a pass to our leaders who practice crony capitalism. Let Romney defend his actions if there were legitimate reasons for closing companies & laying people off!

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      Yup, a private equity takeover of the large technology company I worked for, paid billions and the firm lost billions as the value of the company went way down as business went south.

      And the company didnt even go bankrupt.

      “KKR, Bain & other leverage buyout firms buy firms with the only purpose of closing factories & selling the assets to make the products offshore or sell the brands to competitors etc. ”
      Ahem, no they don’t. They usually want to GROW them. If they have to sell something, its either to ‘unlock’ value or because its not working for them anymore.
      This idea that these firms make money off a business that does poorly is hogwash and contrary to economic common sense.

      • krish

        I should have said (read my previous paragraph) that in some instances again in that sentence. In some instances they buy firms witht he expressed purposed of closing the shutters.
        I disagree with you that their aim is to grow the company usually – again the word “depends” on many external & internal factors. Lately, the focus has been short-term quick gains which lead to closures followed by offshoring! I am not saying this is inherently bad or unlawful! In many instances, it is easier to close door & take the production to China & make even a bigger buck…completely legal but at least one should not brag that they saved companies. That is the issue here, if Romney is proud of his accomplished, why not tell us the record of turn-arounds to closures?

      • krish

        I should have said (read my previous paragraph) that in some instances again in that sentence. In some instances they buy firms witht he expressed purposed of closing the shutters.
        I disagree with you that their aim is to grow the company usually – again the word “depends” on many external & internal factors. Lately, the focus has been short-term quick gains which lead to closures followed by offshoring! I am not saying this is inherently bad or unlawful! In many instances, it is easier to close door & take the production to China & make even a bigger buck…completely legal but at least one should not brag that they saved companies. That is the issue here, if Romney is proud of his accomplished, why not tell us the record of turn-arounds to closures?

  • usedtobelib

    supporter, Jason Chaffetz= for Romney. Did you catch him on Hannity?

  • kipling

    Even if – a big if – Romney wins the general election against Mr. Obama, I have no faith in his willingness to repeal Obamacare.

    If Romney loses the general and Obama remains President, Obamacare will remain.

    • marktx

      If we are 100% certain Obama won’t repeal ObamaCare, what do we have to lose by voting for Romney ?

      No matter how poor a record Romney has on the healthcare issue, he is now on record in support of repeal. He has campaigned on repeal, and knows the majority of the country supports repeal. Once elected, it would be political suicide for Romney to flip flop on repeal. You know why ? Because every first term president wants a second term.

      • kipling

        First, we lose our identity as conservatives. Romney is not a conservative by any stretch of the imagination. If he gets the nominee as the “conservative” candidate then conservatism is meaningless.

        Second, Romney is not the best candidate to challenge Obama and he may very well lose the general election. Thus we have lost our identity as conservatives, our political philosophy has become meaningless, and we have squat to show for it.

        Third, the political class does not see the repeal of Obamacare as politically advantageous. Otherwise the Republican led House would play some hardball. If Romney wins, will he really want to spend the political capital to repeal Obamacare in the face of Democratic opposition. He might lose those precious Independents. And who would the conservatives vote for in 2016 anyway?

        Fourth, if he followed the example of Eisenhower and G.W. Bush, he might actually expand on the Democrats entitlement program.

        There is a lot to lose by conservatives embracing Romney as their own candidate.

        • marktx

          ….but if Romney is the republican nominee, there is no other choice.

          The problem with this field of candidates, at least to me, is that I don’t trust many of them to cut the size of government. Certainly not Santorum, Huntsman, or even Perry.

          Gingrich is the wildcard….on a good day, he could very well be the second coming of Goldwater. On a bad day he is no better than Romney or GW Bush on economic issues.

          Speaking of GW Bush…much of the fiscal insanity that took place during his two terms rubbed off on many republicans, including Santorum and Romney. The fact that we are about to nominate a guy from Massachusetts who supported socialized medicine is a bi product of “compassionate conservatism” run amok.

          • kipling

            If Romney is the republican nominee, there is no other choice.

            However, we should make Romney secure our support by naming conservatives to some of his cabinet positions. We should not easily be bought of with the VP slot. I want to know who will be running the HHS and the EPA.

  • lepelerin

    The Bain movie will be showing tomorrow in SC and I can’t wait!

  • thosjefferson

    The people of South Carolina, like the people of most states, want the right and authority to make their own decisions about health care without the federal government dictating terms.

    Unfortunately for Horowitz, this is also true of the people of Massachusetts.

    I just watched Gov. Perry on Hannity’s show. He sounds more and more like Barak Obama and the Occupy protesters.

    As does Horowitz.

    The anti-Romney movement here on RedState is starting to border on psychosis. Let’s hope real conservatives recognize how insane this line of attack is.

    I trust the people of South Carolina and Florida to value state’s rights, that only Romney appears to be defending now, as well as capitalism and free enterprise, which only Romney is defending, with the tacit support of Ron Paul.

    This party is veering toward insanity.

    • Bill S

      Nominating Mitt Romney and supporting Ron Paul is insane.

  • symphy

    After tonight, Romney currently has 12 pledged delegates, and 11 unpledged ones who can change their mind. Ron Paul has 10, Santorum 7, everyone else 2.

    There are 2,286 delegates in all, and 1,144 are needed to win. In other words, Romney still has barely 0.5% of the total.

    It is very, very clear that the media wants Romney to be the Republican nominee. Because there’s just no way Romney wins against Obama, even though Obama should be the most vulnerable incumbent in 50 years, based on the economy alone. Will they be successful? Probably. I’d put 10 to 1 odds on Romney winning the nomination at this point. But because of the framing, not the math. Because by the math, we have 99% of the nomination process to go, and you don’t declare a winner when only 1% of the total votes are in.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      And you know this how …???

      Romney is already beating Obama in head-to-head polls.
      Obama has been under 50% for months in head-to-head polls. he is easily beatable, including by Romney.

      one rule is: our most electable candidate is the one who wins the primary.

  • ajdx3

    Shame on all you supposed conservatives on this site buying Newt’s OWS attack on Romney. From beltway:
    On Mark Levin’s radio show this evening, conservative Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina predicted that Republican frontrunner Romney would win the state in the upcoming Presidential primary.

    “I think Romney’s going to win here,” said DeMint, “I think that some of the other that might have had an advantage here have really crossed ways with some Republicans as they’ve criticized free enterprise concepts.” DeMint said, clearly referencing Jon Huntsman, Rick Perry and Newt Gingrich’s recent attacks on Romney’s record at Bain capital.

    Demint added that he liked Romney’s acceptance speech tonight, noting that, “He?s hitting a lot of the hot buttons for me about balancing the budget, and frankly I?m a little concerned about the few Republicans who have criticized some of what I consider free market principles here,? DeMint said.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      Yes, they will only backfire.

      Perry sounded frankly demagogic reciting the ‘vulture capitalism’ line. It’s about as bad as when Bachmann hit him over Gardasil. It looks desperate and low. So even if it turns some voters off Romney, it wont turn them on to Perry.

      Not sure who gains – maybe Santorum, as he hasnt joined Newt and Perry in the attacks.

      And yes, after giving a lousy speech in Iowa last week, Romney stepped up his game and gave the best speech of the night tonight.

  • ajdx3

    Here’s the link:http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/jim-demint-romney-will-win-south-carolina/306096

  • Flagstaff

    a teapot. As much as I detest ObamaCare, to me it just doesn’t connect to Mitt Romney. It IS a convenient excuse for Obama to make some junior high wisecracks about, but it had absolutely NO effect on the creation of Obamacare. None at all.

    Mass Care, or whatever it is REALLY called, was an attempt to solve a problem. Did it? No. Did it help? I don’t know. The people of Massachusetts seem to think so.

    Obamacare is an attempt to to forge a federal government takeover of the health care industry, not to help anybody, but to give the feds just that much more control over out lives and foster the spread of communism socialism in the US.

    It isn’t even comparable, so let’s quit beating a dead horse that we are probably all going to have to ride for a while, and get on with the business of attacking Obama for what he is, what he’s done, and what he wants to do to the country.

    • lineholder

      are prime examples of socialized health care. The foundation on which they are built is exactly the same. This type of health care system has been implemented in many other nations. All Romney did was jump on the latest health care policy bandwagon, even though there was evidence to substantiate that the system is ultimately economically unsustainable. Romney has defended his actions and the type of health care system that he was instrumental in implementing in Massachusetts over and over again.

      This type of health care system also involves a significant amount of government interference in free-market enterprise, instilling state managed capitalism over any actions that free-market capitalism might attempt to make to overcome that interference.

      Oh, don’t worry…if Romney wins the nomination, there’s very little likelihood that the precursor of Obama’s signature legislation will be attacked by the left…Romney’s safe on that much at least.

      And I’d almost bet that if Romney wins the nomination, all comments about repealing O-care will disappear from the conversation altogether. After all, why would he want to leave himself wide open to attack, after defending Romneycare in the way that he has?

      • Flagstaff

        illogical. But then again, I don’t think that Romney is lying, and I don’t think he is anything but a Republican focused on getting elected and solving a set of national problems. I agree, he took the wrong tack four years ago. He stood up for his MassCare program instead of saying that it sounded better than it turned out, or something like that. But once he defended it at all, he was stuck with it. To change now would simply make you say, “Oh, he just caved in to pressure.” Or, “Look, another flip-flop.” (Incidentally, I have a bit more compassion for him than you do. Maybe I just don’t see things quite so black-and-white in this case.)

        OTOH, Newt has taken far worse positions on several major issues, but we are willing to forgive and forget, it seems, or at least forgive. In my case, I can forgive both of them because the nut case at 1600 Penn Ave needs to be swept out. But again in MHO, I think that Newt is the candidate far more likely to fall victim to the temptations of bipartisanship than Romney. Of the two, it’s Newt who has the gigantic ego, and it’s usually ego that beats pride before the fall.

        Tonight, it looks like Newt has a real chance to get the nomination, but we’ll know better after Florida. If he’s elected, I predict (1) there will not have been more than 3 debates, and (2) he will have a devil of a time getting along with Congressional leadership, especially if the Republicans take over both houses.

  • becky5

    All that work we did in the tea party, to work within the Republican party to 1) cut spending, and 2) repeal Obamacare.

    What did we get? Well, we got the biggest midterm election landslide since the 1930′s — a great start! Then, the Republicans turned around and gave Obama a $2.5 Trillion blank check, and are now pushing a presidential nominee who gave us Obamacare before even Obama gave us Obamacare.

    Surely they are laughing at us.

    • thosjefferson

      You’re getting the only candidate who will actually cut spending and repeal Obamacare–Mitt Romney.

  • zooboy

    In our central Texas congressional district, Bill Flores beat Demo Chet Edwards in ’10, but has been a moderate John Boehner lapdog on all the crucial budget votes. I think our district can elect a real conservative, if given a head to head alternative.

  • Adjoran

    Congress must repeal ObamaCare, Romney already says he will sign it.

    I see the level of reality here has degenerated with Perry into an anti-capitalist OWS mindset.

    It’s fair to criticize Bain IF you can cite specific cases where their actions were not the best actions for both their investors and the company involved, AND what you would have done which would have had a better outcome. That’s not what I hear, though.

    I hear a bunch of OWS slander and slogans.

  • targus

    I will say this again and my theories are coming more supported at each primary and caucus — it is going t be a three man race with Romney, Paul, and Obama in the general election. Obama will win to my great dismay. Tonight, following the great support for Paul (#2) in NH, that is the real surprise tonight — I knew he would do good but not second; just reinforces he will run as an independent once Romney gets the GOP nomination. Paul is helping Romney win, but Paul will be Romney’s foe in the general election. Everyone is dismissing this — and Rand has nothing to do with this at this time. Rand supports his dad.

    What we need to do is get back the Senate and maintain the House to Republican/Conservatives control so Obama’s next four years agenda is disrupted.

    Also, did you know Romney’s polished and eloquent victory speech in NH tonight was via a teleprompter unlike the others. No wonder it was so good! Geese, I see another Obama skill at work!

    • usedtobelib

      runs third party.

      It will affect Rand. It’ll brand him as a member of a crazy family.

      He might have trouble winning re-election, but if not, he’ll have trouble ever gaining a leadership position w/in the party.

      • targus

        It doesn’t matter now, the horse is out of the barn now. It is too late — Ron is on a surge and it will continue. Ron is commanding a large following. If the Republican party blackmails Ron for his son’s Rand’s future Senate races, leadership roles, or even future presidential attempts (I think really 2020 or later at this point) in order for Ron to not go Independent; it will be made public news and smear the Republicans in the eyes of everyone, especially Ron’s and Rand’s supporters will grow — what Ron and Rand want! I can see Ron making this public the way the man is. Republicans at this time cannot afford that now when the blackmail concession is publically released and truthfully even into the future too. It is a win – win for Ron and Rand to make it public if Republicans make the blackmail offer. Rand Paul too would have the perfect platform for running in 2020 with this knowledge if the blackmail is made. And really…….”IF” (a BIG IF) Rand follows his dad’s footsteps, Dr. Paul’s supporters will support his son. “If” Rand does decide to go for the earlier 2016 presidency, the more damning it would be for the Republicans as negative ‘fresh’ news.

  • annas

    I come to Redstate now it is a bashing of Romney. It’s like a Democrat site. The other candidates are in a circular firing squad. Gingrich shows why he is unfit (I remember his behavior from the past). He would rather be mad and ruin Romney than win or forward the cause!
    Romney’ speech tonight was good-he is addressing the issues that we need to attack. Healthcare in his state was entirely different and was a state issue….not a Federal Mandate. He is way the hell ahead of Obama and also appeals to those needed to win this election (you remember that was the original goal). Romney was Not my candidate, but I will gladly support him!

    • Jeff

      of the circular firing squad.

      Romney did make a great speech tonight

    • usedtobelib

      what we all know about Newt–there’s no good Newt, ugly Newt. He’s been ugly Newt for his own purposes, not for the purpose of the country or the party, for days now, with his attack on Romney for Bain.

      It didn’t surprise me. Newt is known for his temper and his inability to take criticism, and for his ego getting out of control He really did have delusions of grandeur, a proclivity of his, a few weeks ago when his poll numbers soared.

      It’s Perry who really surprised me. It’s evident that the big money behind him really convinced him that all he had to do was show up, He seems shell-shocked that running for the Presidency actually takes lots of work, lots of ground-laying, lots of things he didn’t do. Face it. When he ran for governor against Hutchinson, the Presidency was the last thing on his mind. Suddenly, he says he’s running, and his poll numbers soar, as almost everyone’s have at one time or another.

      Now, having done poorly in Iowa, having gotten, last I looked, 1% in NH (my cats could get more than 1% of the vote in NH) he’s devolved into calling free market and legal enterprises and those who engage in them “capitalist vultures.”

      That’s un-American. Go back to Texas and regain your integrity, Governor. Tell the big oil backers you weren’t ready for this.

      • usedtobelib

        Rollins said, “There’s good Newt, ugly Newt, and he’s now being ugly Newt.”

    • krish

      At least, there is somebody on our side that cannot be bought or their arms twisted! As other people have mentioned, Hannity (biggest fraud – says we should elect conservatives but will not say anything about self-proclaimed moderate!), Rush (does refer to Romney as moderate, but will not go any further because still interested in ratings & not alienate anybody!), & ditto for others (Laura,Medved, etc.) May be Levin is the only guy who says as it is (at least most of the time – can do more!).
      The conservatives have no palce to turnto because everyone should fall in line with Republican establishment – case in point SC Governor Nikki Haley supports Romney while Tea Party conservatives (Newt helped too!) helped her get elected! At least, Sarah Palin has not caved in so far…let us see.
      I am taking this opportunity to Thank Redstate.com founder & many of the contributors who are likeminded!

  • lineholder

    use the state vs. federal argument without challenging it. They can easily turn it around against him by saying “If it was good enough for the citizens of Massachusetts, then it should be good enough for all Americans”.

    They’ll use his praise for Romneycare to support their own legislation in a heart-beat. We can count on it.

    • tonotisto

      I just told my wife this today, I hope I am wrong, but..

      Paraphrasing BO “If great healthcare is good enough to mandate for the children of Massachusetts, how can you deny the rest of American children the same loving care.”

      Paraphrasing MR “The difference is a state mandate vs a federal mandate. State’s rights.”

      Paraphrasing BO “State’s rights? You mean the same argument that justified……..”

      Oh well, we will still have the fight for the Senate and House.

  • redsox9687

    I really can’t figure out why people aren’t able to understand this– it makes perfect sense to me: Gingrich and Perry supporters are hell-bent on beating Romney because they’re “consistent conservatives” and Romney isn’t, but attacking Romney as consistent conservatives hasn’t worked very well so far, so now they’re temporarily changing their views on free markets to see if attacking Romney from the left is anymore effective in scoring a victory for consistent conservatism than it was to attack him as consistent conservatives.

    Jeez, people… get with it. It’s really not that complicated…

    RON PAUL 2012 (might want to take a look at yourselves first before calling us the “crazy” ones)…

    • pttx333

      b

    • Jeff

      who has something good to say to a guy named redsox…then again my daughter married a diehard “Sox” fan and she’s as much a Yankee fan as you can be — but I digress…

      It’s the last shriek before they are forced to throw in the towel due to non-relevance

      Perry is desperate for press any press so he maybe can get 10%. Heck, every time that guy opens his mouth to talk about his own policies he puts his size 12 cowboy boots in it..

      Did Newt Gingrich “really” think that people were not going to forget all his clutter of the past? I mean – I kind of like Newt but sheesh..

      And I’ll throw in another one ….
      But does Santorum’s deer in the headlight expression when he speaks make you yearn for the evidence of the lucid and immense intellectual capacity of W?

      :)

      • redsox9687

        I did not decide to support Paul until literally about an hour ago out of complete exasperation (and that was really about it).

        1) I could never support Romney because of his flip-flopping on virtually every belief I hold dear.
        3) Huntsman– bad joke
        2) As a member of the financial industry Newt and Perry just threw my possibility of ever voting for them out the window… just call me a “vulture” a suppose……
        4) Santorum- It does not make sense to vote for someone in a presidential primary who lost reelection in a swing-state by 20 points.
        5) AT LEAST RON PAUL SEEMS TO GENUINELY STAND FOR SOMETHING (and believe it or not actually does poll decently against Obama):

        http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57355518-503544/poll-among-gop-hopefuls-romney-fares-best-against-obama/?tag=cbsnewsMainColumnArea

        If Republicans wind up losing this it will have been 100% OUR OWN DAMN FAULT. This is the most pathetic primary process I’ve ever seen in my life.

        • jakeofalltrades

          nt

    • williamjameson

      whose career must be vetted too. Even Ross Perot was vetted at the career level and so was George W. Bush and even Obama. Unfortunately liberals bought the koolaid.

      Ron Paul is out there, one good thing about him Austrian Economics, the man was is and always shall be right. My economics professors were the best of breed. Nothing wrong with capitalism but we should be rewarding failure as we have the last 15 years including bailing out Mitt Romney’s firm with FDIC funds from the public. That insurance money was created to protect the public’s funds in banks, not reward Romney’s failures.

  • pttx333

    .

  • annas

    When was Obama vetted???

  • johnt

    Perhaps in hands not as pure or fitting as one would wish, but capitalism nonetheless. What is capitalism if not centered on the poles of success or failure. Instead of a company collapsing from ineptitude, unwilling or unable to restructure, it is reshaped and made fit to continue operations. Failure is mitigated by operational and managerial change. Capitalism.

    • jakeofalltrades

      heh

      • johnt

        therefore inexplicable. heh
        Note comment,” what is capitalism if not centerd on the poles of success or failure’. That would find a place for takeovers & restructures, don’t you think?

        • jakeofalltrades

          How’s that for coherent?

          • JSobieski

            Attacking Bain in the way that Newt and others have been is an attack on free markets, particularly since the underlying premise is of unethical behavior.

            Its different than saying Lady Gaga gets a lot of money for music I just don’t appreciate.

            Implying that layoffs occurred BECAUSE of Bain’s profits is an argument that will not be limited to Bain—it is an argument that everyone who prospers under free markets will find themselves subjected to,

            If Bain’s of the world are causing unemployment, only a cold hearted person would argue against another extension of unemployment benefits or attempts to increase taxes on the 1%

          • lineholder

            I don’t see the attacks as being against capitalism in general…I see them in the context of providing information pertaining to character of individuals involved in the economic activity that took place, namely Romney, and questioning to what extent those activities may or may not have been ethical. In my mind, there is a difference in context that exists.

            The point is that even within the realm of capitalistic ventures there can and are situations where the actions of the people involved are unscrupulous and dishonest. Even in such cases, the principles of free-market capitalism provide us with much greater opportunities for growth and development within our economy than other types of capitalism, such as SMC, may provide.

            And given the circumstances that our nation is facing at the present, it is the greater potential that is most likely to appeal to voters, isn’t it?

          • JSobieski

            All I see is “layoffs” and “profts”.

          • tyman

            the Mafia or the corner drug dealers are capitalists.

            I think Tbone made the comment about the person who buys $100 gun to rob $500 at the store NOT being a profiteer.

            Does all of this mean that if he becomes President that Romney thinks it’s okay for the government to take over businesses?

            Would President Romney start a Department of LBOs?

            That’s what scares me about big government Republicans: they think that all of this is okay as long as they’re in charge. But what happens when the Dems get power back? It sets a huge precedence that all of this is okay.

            Any wonder Obama took Romneycare and nationalized it? We need to run as fast and far away from Romney as possible!

            Rick Perry 2012

          • johnt

            some of the responses. One of them requires an attentive reading, nuance you see. I trust you have someone to help you with it.
            Just for the record, and put as simply as I can. I do not say anywhere and do not believe that “Bain=Capitalism. But as explanations bounce of your head I will cease.
            May I add, stick with four word sentences, they may be by luck coherent but that does not suggest an operable comprehension.

          • jakeofalltrades

            That’s a quote from you.

          • johnt

            if my 4:04 doesn’t clarify things in the remnants of what might be with license called your mind, nothing will. Now be a good fellow and stop banging your head against walls.

  • sunshinek67

    or not. Did he fill up his own pension account in this way while thousands of others lost their pensions, their jobs, homes upended? Well, did he?

    • tyman

      nt

  • bzip

    My take on these Bain attacks:

    Let’s see: Romney is defending what Obama did with General Motors and Chrysler in the process of trying to justify what he did at Bain,

    My Conclusion is:
    For those attacking Perry and/or Newt for going after Romney on Bain – you better hope it comes out now and as you can see Romney is turning into Obama with his responses. Whether you like the Bain attacks or not, they are serving a very important and useful line of attack and Romney just justified it himself in his response.

    In general though I wish Perry would back off a bit, it isn’t;t that I disagree with Perry but is isn’t sitting well with many.

    You only have to listen to Romney’s response using Obama to justify what he did, to see the attacks are showing the real Romney but I would let it go now.

    It is clear to me that Newt doesn’t care if he wins, he is out for revenge so let Newt go all out on this Bain stuff.

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