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Gay “Marriage” is a Losing Issue…For Democrats

We are constantly told by the consultant class that the issue of marriage is a big loser for Republicans.  If you listen to the talking points from almost every elected Republican official in recent days, you will hear them say that the whole issue is a “distraction” from the real issues.  Simply put, they believe the Democrat talking points that they are on the wrong side of the issue, and desire to ignore the fight for traditional marriage altogether, lest it be an albatross around their necks.

However, beyond the public show of bravado regarding gay marriage, it is actually the Democrats who are scared about the electoral consequences of their position on the issue.  After all, North Carolina just became the 32nd state to pass a marriage amendment, and it did so by a large margin (especially considering the inclusion of civil unions in the amendment).  As the Hill reports, Democrats outside of dark blue states aren’t exactly jumping on the “right side of history” bandwagon:

Sens. Jon Tester (Mont.) and Claire McCaskill (Mo.), the two most vulnerable Democratic senators, have declined to endorse Obama’s call for the legalization of gay marriage.

Sens. Joe Manchin (W.Va.), Bob Casey (Pa.) and Bill Nelson (Fla.), Democrats who have easier races but in states that could become more competitive by November, have also backed away from Obama’s stance.

They all represent states with constitutional amendments or laws banning same-sex marriage.

Keep in mind that Obama won Florida, Pennsylvania, and even North Carolina.  Then again, the marriage amendment passed in California during a terrible year for Republicans.  It’s also revealing how the states that banned gay marriage did so with the approval of the voters, while those that legalized it did so at the behest of the politicians.  Even in Maryland, the bluest of blue states, voters are on the verge of completing a successful referendum petition to strike down the law recognizing gay marriage.  Proponents of gay marriage are not too confident they will succeed on the ballot in November…in Maryland.

Democrats, including Obama, are clearly nervous about fully embracing a gay marriage agenda.  They will trot out contrived polls and talk tough, but ultimately, they are observing the only authentic polling data – the votes at the ballot.  We live in a country where most issues are split 50-50, or at best 55-45. There are few issues that have enjoyed 60-70% in the majority of states.  Democrats privately understand this; Republicans refuse to take heed.  That’s why so few of the prominent elected Republicans even released a press statement lauding the vote in North Carolina.  To the extent that they are forced to issue a statement, they mumble some rapid boilerplate about marriage being “between a man and a woman, but let’s go back to talking about the economy.”

Let’s not get into the fact that those who are eager to run away from social issues are usually just as alacritous to cave on fiscal issues.

Instead of speaking with moral clarity on the issue for at least a few minutes, Republicans have scowled at reporters for daring to ask them about this issue during one of the few weeks that it has achieved prominence.  RNC Chairman Reince Priebus was upset that David Gregory made him discuss the issue for an entire 8 minutes!  All of these Republicans that refuse to be “distracted” with the issue, clearly feel uncomfortable discussing an issue that has won in 32 states by overwhelming margins.  Call me naive, but if I were running a campaign and saw 61% oppose even civil unions in a must-win state, I would air at least one ad in that state showing Obama say “I always planned to endorse same-sex marriage before the election.”

We all agree that we need to focus on the economy throughout the 2012 election; however, we must not eschew our bedrock values, especially when they are under assault by Obama.  Marriage is not a distraction; it is an issue we should embrace, especially when we are swamping them at the ballot box.  If we cede the ground to the left on this, it will lead to the self-fulfilling prophecy of Republican consultants – a view that, at present, is not grounded in reality.

Cross-posted from The Madison Project

COMMENTS

  • justincredible

    Daniel I don’t know where you got “We are constantly told by the consultant class that the issue of marriage is a big loser for Republicans.” most conservatives I read they think the opposite. Is your fact rhetoric in nature?
    Yea, people voted for years against inter-racial marriage and there supporters. So, we can benefit on our same sex marriage position for a couple of years before it turns against us.

    • garfieldjl

      Skin color is nothing other than pigmentation that you are born with, one could argue that biologically it can be adventageous for offspring of an inter-racial (if you choose to call it that) pairing. The reason is quite simple from a genetic standpoint that you are not as likely to see the problems that come from inbreeding.

      Granted there are idiots out there that considered skin color to be something that it isn’t which could make said children’s lives miserable, but in all honesty those people are idiots plain and simple.

      A homosexual couple cannot reproduce by natural means, It is biologically impossible.

      So to argue the two issues are the same is quite frankly laughable.

      • http://madisonproject.com/ Daniel Horowitz

        Puting religion aside, to call this a marriage is absurd. They can do or not do what ever they wish; however, they can’t change the definition of something so basic.

      • earlgrey

        to be the same as being against inter-racial marriage and referring to opponents of gay marraige as bigots. So sick of it. I think that must be making the rounds in liberal talking points as everyone supporting gay marriage is dragging out the word bigot.

        My favorite line that got thrown at me was when someone called me a bigot because I insist on my “preconceived notion of marriage”.

        • http://madisonproject.com/ Daniel Horowitz

          It’s like trying to change the definition of a House. Maybe I should rent some property and set up a tree house. Then I’ll demand a home mortgage interest deduction. The bottom line is that words and concepts have basic legal definitions that cannot be changed.

          • a_nonny_mouse

            You say that “… words and concepts have basic legal definitions that cannot be changed …”

            But I believe that is *PRECISELY* their intention. They’re pushing for an Alice-in-Wonderland world where “words mean what I want them to mean”.

            The Supreme Court has already started the ball rolling with its ideas of “penumbras” and “emanations” regarding the Constitution.

            Now we’re trying to rob “marriage” of its meaning, so that we can rob “family” of ITS meaning. Fairly soon afterward, the idea that “families” instill “values” in their children will become passe: of COURSE that’s the job of the Omniscient State! And the quaint notion of “God-given rights” will go the way of the dodo. “Rights” will be whatever The State says they are, and (of course) will be revocable at any time, for any reason.

            It’s just a hop-skip-jump from that point to “War is Peace”, “Freedom is Slavery”, and “Ignorance is Strength”.

      • fightnright

        prohibiting discrimination on the superficial basis of skin color, ending segregation did not erase the more biologically fundamental dividing line of sexual differentiation . It does not *necessarily* follow logically that since a dark skinned woman must be able to marry a light skinned man or use any public women’s toilet, a dark skinned woman must be able to use a men’s public toilet.

      • petsem

        Putting aside the point that marriage does not predicated on procreation. There are two strong arguments for gay marriage. First, marriage from the government standpoint is a contract it’s a religious contract to your religion

        The government is not going to orce any religion to perform or recognize gay marriage, but from a contractual standpoint it should recognize both gay couples and heterosexual couples equally.

        Secondly, and more to your point, like being black no one chooses to be gay. So denying them a right/privilege that is open to others born differently is bias by the government. Again, different religions can choose their own path based on freedom of religion

        Finally, even if you believe that not every one is born Gay (who would choose to take on the handicap of being gay is beyond me), but that being said we all have met at least one person who obviously was born gay. With that in mind, who is anyone to decide who chose to be gay and who was born that way. For the government to make that decision is un-American

        Finally, finally, this may cause Obama some votes in 2012, but it will increasingly cause Republican votes from 2016 and beyond

    • PowerToThePeople

      when you are no more a republican or a conservative than Obama is?

      Not fooled, not fooled.

    • APA Guy

      Here’s your inescapable reality, “justincredible”: Many gays DON’T WANT GAY “MARRIAGE”. They don’t freakin want it. They simply want the legal protections that accompany the status…something that most conservatives have been espousing for years known as civil unions.

      I am proud to call some really wonderful gay Hoosiers my friends…and without exception they all cringe at what Obama has done. They fear that straight Americans will blame them for redefining what has been a straight, man-woman institution that has been the bedrock for stable society for thousands of years.

      I try to tell them that our side is far more rational and intelligent than that…and that Obama is doing this to appease a small-but-loud homosexual group and a band of smug Hollywood liberals. They say it’s OK…we’ll be voting Obama out in November nevertheless :)

      Lesson for you here: Holding strong for a traditional American institution will not “turn against us”. We’re the ones on the correct side of this issue, not Obama. Remember that…

    • califgal

      disallowed marriage between people of different races and those which disallow marriage between those of the same sex is an argument that, unfortunately, has used our society’s penchant for 20 second sound bites that take the place of logical, thoughtful discussion. Of course, anyone giving the topic a bit of thought, anyone with a knowledge of history and anthropology will be able to explain how the two situations are not at all analogous. For this explanation to have an effect, it presumes someone is willing to listen.

      Marriage developed as a way to formalize the bond, and thus strengthen the bond of a man, a woman, and their offspring and in so doing strengthen the order of the society in which they live. It’s a way of avoiding chaos, in other words.

      The natural inclination of a male is to desire a variety of sexual partners, while the natural inclination of the female is to want a protector and one who can be counted on to provide for her and their offspring. Males who are successful in mate selection choose healthy, fertile females; females who are successful choose healthy males capable of provisioning.

      However, cultural proscriptions, the most important of which is marriage, developed in order to provide stability to the culture by assuaging the natural fears of the male and the female.

      What are those “natural fears”? They exist cross-culturally. They exist in monogamous society and in polygamous societies.

      What the male fears most is that a woman might bear children that are not his and that he will be tricked into providing for them. What the female fears most is that the male she has mated with will abandon her and her offspring, leaving them w/out means of sustenance.

      The bond that marriage provides universally is the bond of assurance to both the male and the female that biological offspring are provided for both economically and psychologically and that what they fear is less likely to eventuate.

      A man is more likely to leave a woman for other mating opportunities (or to want to) if he has no good reason for futher investment. Feeling safe that the offspring are genetically his is reason to stick around. A woman is less likely to leave a man or to fool around with other males if she has produced offspring with the man who has been ritually bound to her (a husband) both for psychological and economic reasons.

      The “governments” of societies (it could be governments as we think of them in modern terms or the tribal elders of a small band of people), saw the danger to their group in allowing anything to undermine the importance of the male-female bond. (Witness what has happened to our own society as we have devalued the marriage bond: a growing number of males are now following their natural inclination to have many sexual partners as they can get, feeling a bond to no female in particular and feeling no security that the women with whom they have mated could ever be trusted sexually to produce his and only his offspring; the females are no longer seeking men who are perceived as kind and apt to make good fathers from both an economic and psychological perspective since they have a “daddy” in the form of a goverment that provides for them–the welfare state has, in effect, attacked the institution of marriage., making the males unnecessary as either husband or father.

      The society has a vested interest in promoting that the offspring of the mating of males and females are well-adjusted and suited to become productive, healthy citizens themselves. From a sheer economic and non-religious standpoint, whether we are discussing modern America or small hunter-gatherer societies, the society’s fitness, indeed its very survival, in every way depends on 1) offspring being produced and 2) offspring growing up in stable conditions which make them likely to become productive citizens who, in turn, produce more offspring who will become productive citizens, etc.

      Marriage exists, and has forever, for the purpose of providing order, stability, and legitmacy to the bearing of and the rearing of the next generation. It’s about offspring and about how to keep parents fully engaged in raising those offspring.

      Only because mating produces offspring did marriage come about. Marriage itself is about offspring, not about mating. That can occur w/out marriage. Governments have no vested interest in mating choices, but they do have a vested interest in offspring.

      Because sexual unions between males and sexual unions between females lead to no offspring, governments have no vested interest in them.

      That is not the case with sexual unions between men and women.

      The reason governments banned interracial marriages include several reasons that involved attitudes about offspring: 1) they felt the sexual unions between the races would lead to inferior offspring; 2) they feared the offspring of such unions would impose a burden on the state because neither race would accept the offspring and they would become the responsibility of the state; 3) they felt that some races were superior to others and they didn’t want the superior race “watered down.”

      The notion of interracial marriage is not analogous to that of homosexual marriages, where there can be no biological offspring of both partners.

  • californiasquish

    Here’s the newest polling from Gallup.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/first-time-majority-americans-favor-legal-gay-marriage.aspx

    “Support for legal gay marriage decreases markedly with age, ranging from 70% support among those aged 18 to 34, to 39% support among those 55 and older. More broadly, support is highest among younger women and lowest among older men.”

    In a purely political sense, Romney can ‘afford’ to take the stance he’s taken this time around, but those days are numbered.

    • lineholder

      We HAVE to start doing this. Some of the polling data being presented is incomplete. We need to be verifying it rather than just accepting it to be true at face value alone.

      • http://madisonproject.com/ Daniel Horowitz

        this is no different from any fiscal issue where the polling shows the younger generation supporting welfare, entitlements, and more government programs. With all issues- fiscal and social – if we don’t take a leadership role in articulating our position, we will eventually lose. If we cede the field on the issue we will definitely lose in a self-fulfilled prophecy.

        • lineholder

          into the social scenario separating our population from traditional values, such as self-reliance in a fiscal/economic context and moral issues in a social context, the easier it is going to become for them to generate the kind of situation where they can succeed in a “stealth” takeover in replacing our current form of government.

          It all overlaps.

          • lineholder

            attempting to undermine resistance to change via the process of acclimation, and it’s possible that they’re using polling data as a means of doing this.

            Basic scientific theory in the realm of human psychology.

          • acat

            is that there seems to be a more general acceptance of “gayness” as “just another difference” among people born after 1965 than before.

            If so, then .. the acclimation was completed decades ago, and is now coming to fruition.

            That, in a nutshell, is why we need a new argument.

            Mew

          • lineholder

            Apparently, I’m not making myself clear enough of that point. I have no disagreement with taking a new approach and being more proactive.

            Acclimation to societal acceptance of gay relationships may be somewhat complete. Acclimation to gay marriage…not according to votes.

            Acclimation to the mentality that “resistance is futile”….IF that is part of what is going on here, and I’m looking at this in the context that it is possible, that isn’t something that I want any of my fellow citizens to buy into or be deceived by.

          • lineholder

            self-fulfilling prophecy principle applies. Impacts to what extent people will consider being proactive.

            Have to get to work now.

          • californiasquish

            I’m all for being skeptical about polling data, but if we accept the Gallup numbers as even being in the ballpark (and I see no reason not to – it’s Gallup, not HuffPo), it’s only a matter of time until the votes are there, too. As acat already said above, the clear majority of people born after 1965 really don’t care who people marry, and that number is only going to go up over time.

            I totally see your point. “Why throw in the towel if the fight isn’t over yet?” But, honestly, I think it ended years ago.

            It seems to me what we’re going to end up with in 10 years is that the federal government will grant ‘civil unions’ or ‘domestic partnerships’ to any two people who want one, gay or straight, and it will be up to the churches to call them marriages. And while there’s currently some political yardage to be gained by taking the opposing view, the scale moves a little more the other way with each passing day.

            Already today, anyone who stands in front of a podium and tells America that Neil Patrick Harris’s family doesn’t deserve the same federal protections and benefits as Kim Kardashians is swimming against the tide. In my opinion, this fight was lost about the time Ellen got a daytime talk show.

            Full disclosure, I personally see that as a good thing. I say get the federal government out of the marriage business all together.

            Additionally, In terms of the political ramifications of this issue, keep in mind it doesn’t break strictly across left/right lines. It’s more related to age and church attendance. You clearly see the social conservative/libertarian divide here on RS. The same thing exists on the left between churchgoers and non-churchgoers.

            And lastly, I agree some new arguments need to be made. If you are going to stem this tide, someone is going to have to figure out a way to convince people that NPH’s family and Kim Kardashian’s family (to stay with the examples) are fundamentally different. Someone needs to figure out how the guy who’s been with his partner for years, in a stable, loving home where they are raising two adorable kids doesn’t deserve the same federal protections Kim Kardashian got for marrying a guy she barely knew for ratings. And since straight married couples also use surrogates, fertility treatments, etc., I don’t see how you do that.

            Nice BORG reference, by the way.

          • acat

            So far, on the “gay” issue, conservatives still seem to be using the same arguments, and insisting on letting the liberals pick the battlefield. As long as that remains true, then .. yeah. It’s a matter of time.

            If one of two things happen, that changes.

            Either conservatives can meet J. Sobieski’s challenge and find a new argument about “harm”, or if conservatives can choose a slightly different battlefield, it’s winnable.

            I don’t see a “harm” argument, so I keep asking why we’re insisting on keeping government involved in what should be a church (i.e. extra-governmental) ceremony. Let the government handle the legal, let the church handle the spiritual…

            Mew

          • californiasquish

            nt

        • JSobieski

          The Baby Boomers are a great example of that phenomenon.

          • http://madisonproject.com/ Daniel Horowitz

            Keep in mind that there is obviously some sort of Wilder effect. In most states the per-election polling was a lot closer than the final outcome. There has been a pretty consistent pattern.

          • JSobieski

            nt

          • acat

            at least according to the Wikipedia article (I know, I know…) polling outfits seem to be getting better at compensating.

            Mew

          • JSobieski

            I am not worred about someone lying to me when I can compare polling numbers with the actual voting tabulation.

          • acat

            and why they’re so buried.

            *Someone* has to have done exit polling… right?

            Mew

          • acat

            Regarding racial biasing effects – call it Wilder, or Bradley, or Dinkins – I’d be curious to know whether you’re aware of an age-bias that goes along with racial bias.

            That is, do older people lie more often, or do younger people?

            One would imagine some sociologist or poly sci doctoral candidate has looked at this, eh?

            Mew

          • lineholder

            We’re putting a fair amount of confidence in some of these polls without verifying the validity of the data first.

            In fighting any kind of battle or war, if one side can convince the other side that resistance if futile, then how this impact the actions of their opponents?

          • JSobieski

            When pro-lifers were (unfairly) characterized as just a bunch of people who didn’t like people having sex outside of marriage, the pro-choice side gained ground in the battle for public opinion.

            Only after the pro-life side took efforts to better focus our arguments on harm being done to a victim (and not nanny-state morality police), did we start to gain ground.

            I would like to improve our game before events force us to. That is what concerns me. Our side of the argument is not really getting out there. Even here at RS, the argument is basically the “Bible says its wrong”.

            We both have concerns. So long as your concerns don’t preclude rebooting our efforts, I have no argument with you.

          • lineholder

            As a matter of fact, I’m very much so in favor of taking a more proactive approach on quite a few things. That’s one behavioral pattern that Conservatives have had in the past, i.e. that we haven’t been as proactive as we could be, that I think needs some re-evaluating right now.

            No, what I’m concerned about is that the left could be using psychological theory to “run the gamet” right now, and present an illusionary context that conveys, implies and insinuates exactly what I’ve stated above…and that there could be people who buy into it rather than questioning it.

            Just a bit of “tail wagging the dog”.

        • exitsfunnel

          I think that it is wishful thinking on your part to hope that people turn against gay marriage as they age in the same way that they move to the right on fiscal issues. It’s not hard to figure out why the move on fiscal issues: it’s because they finally have some money and understand in a real, tangible way where the government gets the funds it uses to pay for all of those pie in the sky ideas they used to support. There is no analogous impetus for a shift in attitudes towards gay marriage.

          -exits

    • exitsfunnel

      Acknowledging upfront that I am not at all bothered my same sex marriage, which I guess makes me a supporter, your comment really hits the nail on the head. I understand why social conservatives want to dig their heals in, but it’s not hard to see how this is going to turn out.

      That said, my gut instinct is that we’re not quite at the tipping point yet, and that Obama’s position will probably hurt him a little bit this cycle, especially and crucially in Ohio. Though maybe that damage will be offset by increased enthusiasm amongst his base. Who knows? In any event, if it does hurt him, he’ll be the last presidential candidate for which that is true. If Obama wins this cycle, I would be shocked if the GOP candidate in 2016 took a position against gay marriage.

      One additional thought on the issue of GOP pundits. Support for gay marriage skews with education level. Not quite as strongly as it does with age, but the effect is pronounced. The pundit class are almost by definition educated, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the GOP punditry’s desire to move the focus away from same sex marriage weren’t more a reflection of their personal support rather than any legitimate worry about the political consequences.

      -exits

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      and that translates into more support for traditional values.

  • clintonformccain

    All of these Republicans that refuse to be ?distracted? with the issue, clearly feel uncomfortable discussing an issue that has won in 32 states by overwhelming margins.

    I don’t think that’s it at all. Rather, I think that the Romney campaign is disciplined enough to not get pulled off message. Every day that is spent not talking about jobs, the economy, and Obama’s failed leadership is a day that helps Romney’s opponent. This is not a social issues election. It’s an economy election and Romney is not going to make the same mistakes that Rick Santorum kept making.

  • exitsfunnel

    As an aside, does anyone have a link to the crosstabs for the voters on the NC marriage amendment? I will admit that I was surprised at how lopsided that result was and am interested in learning the degree to which the electorate skewed republican (as they did have a contested primary that day).

    -exits

    • acat

      If you find it, do please share.

      It seems to being buried deep – likely because it is so lopsided.

      Mew

    • lineholder

      I live in NC, and I’ve not been able to find any kind of exit polling on this. You can look at the last pre-election poll from PPP. The data does appear to be complete, (but I really wish that Neil or someone with more experience would look at it)

      In NC, Amendment 1 was a cross-over issue. The poll consisted of 49% D, 34% R and 17%I, and still presented 55% for and 39% against. And what is presented on the first page of PPP’s analysis doesn’t entirely hold true. When you start looking through the data, you’ll see why.

      http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_NC_506.pdf

      • exitsfunnel

        Those numbers are interesting though frankly some of the are strange. A couple of things jumped out at me. The respondents identified themselves as 49D to 34R but only 27% identified themselves as very or somewhat liberal while 48% identified as very or somewhat conservative. So almost all of the moderates and some of the self identified conservatives are democrats. I guess that that’s the blue dog effect.

        Question 6 is also interesting as it indicates that when the respondents understand that the amendment also prohibits civil unions, support falls to 39% while opposition rises to 44%. That this amendment also prohibits civil unions is really what surprises me about the lopsidedness of the vote.

        -exits

        • lineholder

          About 18 months ago (maybe even less than that), this state had polls showing a three-way split in demographics where political affiliation is concerned. I even mentioned to people early in the primary season that Conservatives are a minority here, and that candidates would have to keep this in mind when coming into the state.

          IF the breakdown along political lines that was shown in this PPP poll holds true (and at this point, I’d probably have to see more evidence than just this one poll or just the outcome of the vote where Amendment 1 is concerned to say that it does), then something has happened in this state to pull the population rather strongly to the right.

          IF that is true…what happened and why? What triggered the shift? Amendment 1 is primarily a social issue. Does this mean that we now have people who have become more socially conservative? Or does it apply to economic issues as well?

          I have lots and lots of questions.

        • aesthete

          It’s the party of mandarins: somewhere around half of its membership is conservative or moderate, and the unifying theme is a desire or need for larger government domestically. On social issues, the Democrat base tends to have quite an ugly split; on the one hand, they are owned by several high-paying donors to defend abortion on demand (and to a much lesser extent, to further “gay rights”), and on the other, much of their base is strongly opposed to both of these things.

          Economics is where they make their peace, as all parties agree that they are entitled to the proceeds of the larger government and patronage network that the Democrat party promises and largely succeeds in delivering.

  • renl57

    The national polls do indeed show that fewer Americans oppose same-sex marriage than ever before.

    But that’s not how the 2012 election will be decided. The election will be won or lost in a handful of swing states, notably Ohio and Florida.

    Obama’s strategy of mobilizing the liberal base is leaving him quite vulnerable in states like Ohio and FL with older and working-class populations. And in those states, I’ll bet that same-sex marriage is highly unpopular. (The elderly–many of whom live in FL–are still strongly against it.)

    With the economy on all voters’ minds, I doubt that the same-sex marriage issue will swing voters more than a couple of percentage points. But in a close election, that’s more than enough to decide the outcome.

  • rabun1016

    The news on global warming and the opinion polls from 2002 to 2008 was all in support. The Yale Gallup poll in 2007: “69 percent of Americans believed that global warming is caused mainly by human activities (57%), or caused equally by humans and natural changes (12%), while only 29 percent believed it is caused mostly by natural changes in the environment.”

    Only after smart people started talking clearly about the issue did those numbers start to change.

    Unfortunately, the Republican Party seems to have a shortage of smart people talking clearly about the gay marriage issue. Can you imagine Haley Barbour not seeing this question as a hanging curve ball ready to be walloped?

    You have the obvious issue of burdening our civil courts with gay divorces and property settlements. More government needed. But, how do you handle the extra cost of social security payouts since married spouses are entitled to half the higher earning spouse’s benefits? And how is it fair to the unmarried sisters (or brothers) (or mom and daughter) who have lived together for years, and don’t get to share social security because they are not married, and never will be.

    Obviously, the American people are malleable, but like the global warming fraud, it has to be exposed.

    A.I.D.A. as Alec Baldwin said in Glengarry Glen Ross. You have their attention, people are interested, but give them some reasons in support of their position.

    Kids think about their friends, gay and not, and are not bothered about it, and think it, ergo, translates in support for gay marriage. But, do they really want to be sitting on a jury assessing the value of loss of consortium? Do they want gay couples being able to stand in line for adoption, that same as infertile couples longing for children? Do they want their taxes to go up so we can pay gay spouses more in social security benefits?

  • apocomilitiaman

    Why would Republicans give cover fire for the enemy. Let the enemy wither under the fire of their indefensible position. If we try to go completely partisan we open up for shelling by the press. We stay on message about the econonmy and let the Democrats hang themselves with this issue along with the MSM.

  • califgal

    marriage definition: Why young voters won’t tip the gay marriage debate anytime soon

    http://www.american.com/archive/2012/may/why-young-voters-wont-tip-the-gay-marriage-debate-anytime-soon

    And yet I keep hearing the MSM talking Gallup. So the question need to be asked of Gallup, “Why have you been so wrong”?

    What kind of sample does Gallup use? And why don’t the news media ask?

  • califgal

    research that examines that most men who enter into same -sex marriages in states where they are allowwed, or those who enter into private marriages in those states in which same-sex marriage is not recognized, do so after negotiating the sexual terms of their marriage. Most male same-sex marriage partners reach an agreement of non-monnogamy.

    This is accepted as the “normal” by gay males. Often, they first agree to threesomes, with the two of them involved, thinking this will prevent jealousies. Then, more often than not, they re-negotiate after some time, allowing different arrangements. For example, some demand that they must first give approval to the male their partner has chosen for a tryst. Others agree to not reveal the identity of “the other.” Some actually choose a day of the week or month during which they are allowed to have a fling. They negotiate how many and how often.

    People are usually shocked by this, especially if they’ve little to no contact with a homosexual population, such as the ones in the Bay Area in which I live. The idea that GLBT leaders have fought so hard for same-sex marriage leads many people, who know only a few gay people in a casual manner, say a colleague or two, to think , “Well, if they want so badly to be married, they must want to be committed to one another.”

    Actually many gays do indeed value what they term as “committment,” but they do not include sexual monogamy as a condition for “committment.” The college students who support gay marriage do not understand this either.

    If people bothered to think more clearly on this, they’d realize that what keeps men, who are not by nature as inclined to sexual monogamy as are women, from fooling around is the threat of loss of their children, their wife, and the loss of respect of their community.

    No such fear exists for males in a same-sex relationship. Both are males and have the sex drive of males, and as males both value variety of sexual partners. Neither needs to fear a pregnancy and societal strictures. They have produced no children and thus needn’t fear the rejection by those children should they cheat on their spouse. Thus, a marriage between such partners is entered into with fewer things at stake than a marriage between a man and woman.

    While it’s true that many a hetero marriage partner has cheated on his or her spouse, it is not a common practice for a man and woman to enter into a marriage with the expectation that each will be having sex with others. The expectation and goal of man-woman marriage is monogamy, even if many fall short. This is simply not true of most gay unions.

    Do you hear this discussed? I certainly don’t.

    • demsaresatanic

      for example, ?men, who are not by nature as inclined to sexual monogamy as are women,?
      is predictable female adaption given the difference in costs/benefits of reproduction, where females bear the greatest risks and have less opportunity for reproduction in raw numbers.

      As for promiscuity, homosexual males may be intrinsically more promiscuous, or they may simply have more opportunity to exercise it, or it may be as you say. Not producing offspring to carry on the trait, evolutionary adaption is not much help. The odd thing about homosexuality is that it persists in spite of evolutionary pressure to the contrary.

      • califgal

        persisted is that it is not an evolutionary adaptation. A growing number of scientists agree with guys like biologist Paul Ewald and evolutionary medicine theorist Greg Cochran, that it is likely caused by a pathogen (probably viral but could be bacterial or parasitic) that destroys neural cells which produce a neurotransmitter responsible for mate selection. It might be passed by a mother to her fetus but it’s just as likely the damage could occur neonatally or in toddlerhood when the brain is still very susceptible.

        Natural selection would eventually have rid any genes that produced people who suffered a fitness loss such as that produced by lack of attraction to the opposite sex. Mutations can occur which produce such maladaptation, but not at the rate of 1-3% of the human population.

        • Ausonius

          Whether the behavior comes from disease is doubted by assorted researchers watching homosexual behavior among higher primates and even other species.

          An excerpt from a National Geographic artice:

          “Dunbar says the bonobo’s use of homosexual activity for social bonding is a possible example, adding, “One of the main arguments for human homosexual behavior is that it helps bond male groups together, particularly where a group of individuals are dependent on each other, as they might be in hunting or warfare.”

          For instance, the Spartans, in ancient Greece, encouraged homosexuality among their elite troops. “They had the not unreasonable belief that individuals would stick by and make all efforts to rescue other individuals if they had a lover relationship,” Dunbar added.
          ….

          But he adds that homosexuality doesn’t necessarily have to have a function. It could be a spin-off or by-product of something else and in itself carries no evolutionary weight.”

          See:

          http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal_2.html

          • acat

            Part of the culture today in Afghanistan. Apparently, some of our troops “over there” get hit on … because that’s their culture.

            Mew

          • garfieldjl

            Generally homosexual behavior in animals has to do with establishing and asserting dominence.

            If we want to look at ancient greek culture, homosexuality was centered around older men taking young boys that had just entered adolescence.

            The Roman’s had it centered around slavery, where a Roman man could do whatever he liked to his property. Again a way to exert dominence over a slave.

            That’s the problem with trying to pull out rationale like animals do it, or the ancients did it, when you end up debating someone that knows a lot about history and is almost like a walking encyclopedia, your argument gets dismantled.

            Yes you see it in nature and ancient cultures, but it seems to be a way of exerting power of one that has less physical strength.

            I approach this from an angle that we all have instinctive urges, but the difference between a human and a bonobo is that we can choose not to act on those urges.

          • Ausonius

            How many criminals in prison are “naturally” homosexual or bisexual?

            Free will rises its unwanted head…again! :)

            How much free will or even consciousness does an animal have?

            And yes, one sees homosexuality in ancient times both as a choice and as something imposed for dominance.

            In Latin, there is a verb: “pergraecor” which on the surface means “to act or live like a Greek” whose actual hidden meaning was “to be a homosexual.”

            Despite the upper classes’ aping of the Greeks, average Romans used the word as an insult.

        • demsaresatanic

          after I replied to your prior post that there could be a genetic explanation similar to sickle cell, where one gene is adaptive but a double dose is not, however I think that the immediate cause has at least one simple scenario. As I recall, homosexuality has been reproduced in animals by manipulating the amount of sex hormones in utero, without sufficient testosterone at the critical stage of brain development the male will demonstrate female mating behavior, and likewise, introducing testosterone into a female fetus at the critical stage will produce male mating behavior.

    • acat

      Said lifestyle involves, one notes, non-monogamous behavior between husbands and wives, eh?

      I reach the conclusion that this is not discussed, not because gays are unique, but because it’s an off-limits topic.

      Mew

    • zachv

      What research exactly states that gay men negotiate terms of non-monogamy in their marriages? Or that it is normal that gay couples have threesomes or rampant sexual encounters?

      Is it the same bull that the Family Research Counsel fabricates to claim that I will have over 1,000 sexual partners in my life, or that 96% of the gay community are drug users. Those claims are patently false and it’s disgusting that you — califgirl — are spouting just as false and downright nasty claims as those anti-gay creeps.

      It’s amazing how the prejudiced people only ever attack gay men. Apparently lesbians don’t provide enough target for them and their hatred.

      • acat

        The funny thing is how many of those arguments I’ve heard about various different groups.

        “All heavy metal fans are druggies”.

        “All punk rockers are a**holes.”

        “Catholic girls are easy.”

        “What do you call an {outlier-group} girl who can outrun her brothers?”
        “Virgin”

        It’s entirely predictable, and – this is the key – it falls increasingly upon deaf ears. There’s a clear difference in how these stories resonate with people born after 1965 compared with how they resonate with people born before.

        Mew

      • Jack_Savage

        http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=1

        If you’re upset, take it out on the Old Gray Has-Been. Or the researchers whose study is written about. Or maybe take it out on researchers who refuse to study the subject and provide and additional information.

        Incredibly, I have several gay friends. Monogamy among males is not the first trait I would attribute to them, just as I would not attribute it to my unmarried straight male friends.

        The sexual tendencies of females has been well documented and would explain why the argument that lesbians are sexually promiscuous has not been made.

        • acat

          Why is this news? Why would anyone find this upsetting?

          I *do* find the clear bias in the coverage annoying… open marriages are nothing new. Hell, they came up in this presidential primary!

          Share the Gingrich!

          Mew

          • Jack_Savage

            But there are two additional points.

            First, it’s true. Obviously so. I am not sure why anyone would think of arguing against it.

            Second, married women act as “governors” (in the back off the throttle sense) of the sexual behavior of married straight men. When there are two men in a sexual relationship, research shows that there is no governor. That’s also why there is significant discomfort with two gay males adopting – the home life would most likely be fairly disruptive, with multiple “uncles” arriving, staying for a while, then leaving.

            Females may be different. I can’t find any studies. But of course one cannot advocate for lesbian marriage or adoption without advocating for gay male marriage or adoption, or transgender adoption, or bisexual couple adoption, or polygamous adoption, or … well, you get the idea.

          • acat

            If there is a *provable* harm, then restrict adoption. Separate issue.

            Again, by the way, you’re complaining about gays doing something, while apparently ignoring the far, far more common situation of single mothers with kids and a steady string of “boyfriends” .. a situation that *does* show a significantly higher risk to the kids.

            Speaking of “for the kids”, seems to this cat to be a common glitter bomb thrown in this argument. If marriage were about reproduction, that’d be a different story… but that’s a “Look, shiny object!” argument.

            If you want to talk about protecting kids, then let’s do so. Deliberately conflating these two, though, is dishonest.

            Mew

          • califgal

            the direct result of the government, in the form of welfare checks, section 8 housing vouchers, food stamps, free medical and dental, acting as the provisioning daddy.

            It’s so bad that the practice of single motherhood (and this is what happens when women, dreamy eyes and all, fall for the guy’s line that he loves her only to watch him leave, come back, leave, come back, be replaced by another, then another, etc.) has led many women in the middle class and in the affluent classes to have children outside of wedlock.

            Socialism and communism love it when the state is perceived as the provisioning body; it give the state ultimate power.

          • acat

            is not a good one to base opposing gay marriage…

            We can discuss this, if you like – adoption should be restricted to couples (regardless of gender) with 10 years of stability, and we should reduce the bogus “feel-good” requirements that leave kids with unfit mothers to the point the kids come out damaged.

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            albeit a forgotten one.

            I have stated on here just the other day that I would argue with someone who would state that homosexuals can not provide a loving and safe home for a kid or kids, but the reality is that is damaging to the child. The same applies to all the broken homes of straight people.

            Kids need different things from a set of parents in order to grow properly. A father can love a daughter, but will never be suitable in certain areas where a mother is needed. Same applies to boys needing a father. Each sex brings its own unique quality to the teaching of a child and when it is absent, there are tons of things the child loses out on stunting their mental growth and their identity growth.

            Does this mean that a child who grows up missing one aspect of the natural family will turn out to be the new Dahmer, no. But they do grow up with certain aspects missing and it matters little whether or not it is missing because they grew up in a same sex home or a home where two straight people could not act like adults and split up.

          • acat

            Dahmer had a relatively normal family, right?

            I do, overall, agree with you that being raised by a single parent or by two parents of the same gender is not ideal. However, neither is being raised by parents who “stay together for the kids”, regardless of their genders.

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            Dahmer was simply a reference, not a comment on his upbringing, and you know that.

            And no one suggested that two bitter people staying together is ideal or good for the kid. But if a couple feels a divorce is their only option and are able to set aside differences for the sake of the kid, the child will continue gathering necessary teachings from both the mom and the dad.

          • acat

            is it better for a gay couple to raise a child instead of a single parent?

            More importantly .. at what point do we as a society start penalizing single parent *by choice* families for foisting damaged kids onto society?

            Isn’t that the direction you’re heading with this?

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            I neither stated any of those goals nor did I suggest them.I simply responded to your post where you stated there is no damage when it comes to children being raised by a same sex couple. There is a damage factor to a same sex couple raising children that can not be fixed without both partners changing their choice in lifestyle which would not happen most likely.

            A single parent of the straight persuasion can rectify the missing link by simply searching for a good partner to assist in the raising of their child in a man and woman home front.

            I have stated multiple times in the last few days that I will agree with anyone that just as a man and woman can provide a loving safe home for a child, so can a same sex couple.But to state there are not key issues in a home missing the opposite sex would be wrong regardless of why the opposite sex is missing.

          • acat

            The part where you misquote me?

            I never said being raised by a gay couple would cause “no damage”. I said “less damage than…”.

            Look, I don’t mind discussing this with you, even though I know we’re never going to agree on the major points. I do, however, object to being misquoted.

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            I see. Oh well, not uncommon for you.

            Just admit it, your paw stepped into poo and instead of backing off and cleaning your paw, you want to leave it smelly and play games.

          • acat

            I think your definition of semantics is just a tad off.

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            the poo from your paw cat, you have grown tiresome. But then again most big mouth know it all people do.

            Don’t get your feelings hurt, you will soon move on to every other subject telling everyone else you thoughts on it and then this will be forgotten.

            Now, while I am looking up semantics to appease you, how about you take the time to go back through the thread and read it.

            Can not wait for you next intuitive post on every subject known to man.

          • acat

            so start slinging “mud”.

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            it is no my fault that you type so much about everything you can not keep up with topic or even you own words.

            And sorry I do not buy into your constant BS libertarian “utopian” nonsense.

          • juliea

            Skin That Know-It-All Cat

          • acat

          • acat

            I’m a small-government libertarian.

            If you had actually read and comprehended my writing, you’d get that.

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            and comprehended your writings and they are littered with utopian nonsense.

            You have this idea that the government should not have laws because they have no business making law. You want the feds to get out of drugs even though due to state to state transport, manufacturing, etc they have a duty to be involved all because a little weed never hurt anyone and hell, look at prohibition, we should not have law because people will do what they want anyways.

            Lets not have a fed protection of marriage all because government bad so screw the states because activist can dictate other states law via activist judges. All that is OK just as long as the big bad government does not set any law.

            You are like Ron Paul in the sense that even when you start out right, instead of taking it to a logical end, you go towards a false utopia. And that is the problem with the entire libertarian thought process.

            The problem with your line of thought and most libertarians is that you do not set a fair line such as fed government has no right forcing commerce (obamacare) or deciding the salt level in potato chips, you take it to an extreme that is not only absurd, it is unrealistic and unattainable.

          • acat

            Just checking the score….

            Mew

          • gekster

            I’m guessing you are male.
            I’m also guessing you are white.

            If my guess is right, you are like RP.
            If I am wrong, then no, you arn’t.

          • acat

            And so is Rick Perry… only with the added bonus that both are also Texan.

            Mew

          • Jack_Savage

            Just using the study to back up the unease about gay adoption, as well as to show that gay male marriage and the agreements that result are fundamentally different than heterosexual couples.

            But since kids have been brought up, would you say that single Moms and the string of boyfriends are the result of society affirming and strengthening the institution of marriage, or not?

            And the second question is that if you agree that a home life that includes parents with multiple sexual partners is harmful, then do you oppose gay male couples adopting in order not to make the situation for children worse? Or do two wrongs make a right?

          • acat

            Else, you wouldn’t have brought it up, nor would you have spent more words using that issue to make your “gays are different and different is bad” point, eh?

            Some single moms do very well, don’t have a string of boyfriends, involve responsible-role-model types in their kids lives, and produce better kids than some unhappily-married self-absorbed suburbanite idiots. Some single moms do worse. Doesn’t have squat to do with society affirming marriage, has to do with society failing to affirm motherhood.

            I would say that any couple, regardless of gender, who have less than ten years together shouldn’t be allowed to adopt. A gay couple with “outside contacts”, after 10 years, should have figured out how to keep the drama that you’re so concerned about to a minimum.

            Mew

          • Jack_Savage

            So I will use that argument more often.

            But it seems like you are saying motherhood is important, not marriage, and that two wrongs make a right.

            And I’m not really concerned about the drama I highlighted, since my situation is not remotely comparable. I would imagine that members of household where parents have multiple sexual partners would be, however.

          • acat

            How can a relationship that falls apart half the time matter?

            Mew

          • Jack_Savage

            Why does the relationship fall apart half the time now when at one point in our history it did not? And will allowing gay marriage help this statistic, or hurt it?

            And what effect will being a child of gay male parents have on the child?

            In order to argue for gay marriage, you can’t argue that “marriage is bad so what the hell is the difference”. You need to argue why allowing gay marriage will be beneficial to every part of society, because it will affect every part of society.

            I haven’t seen anyone even come close to attempting that argument yet, and believe me, I’ve been listening.

          • acat

            I don’t see anyone here arguing “marriage is bad”. I do see you defending a lot of indefensible hetero marriages, though.

            My argument is that splitting the legal/governmental part off into “civil unions” or “domestic partnerships”, and returning “marriage” to the religious institutions will let both succeed or fail on their merits.

            You have not refuted this. You have barely addressed it, preferring to throw glitter bombs and yell “look at the shiny!”.

            Do please either argue honestly, or go back to the barnyard.

            Mew

          • aesthete

            are about evenly split when it comes to gay adoption: some have legalized gay adoption as a “second best” option, and some have not legalized gay adoption. Only a very small handful (Spain and Sweden IIRC) mandate that private and state adoption agencies not discriminate WRT gay or straight couples.

            Oddly, there are more states in the US where gay adoption is legal than where gay marriage is legal — just the opposite as is the case in Europe.

      • Bill S

        Your side doesn’t get free rein to opine without opposing views.. If you don’t believe it, ask for a source. Next time you throw out “anti-gay” accusations will be the last. Believe it or not, we can disagree with your behavior without hating you as an individual.

        • PowerToThePeople

          and it is a shame it clouds all other reasoning. Since he has been here, he joined in with Center in the “lets make nearly every post about the gay agenda” and his posts tend to go something like this:

          Ronald Reagan was a great president and we need to legalize gay marriage and anyone who does not agree are ignorant intolerant fools.

        • zachv

          … designed to make me and others sound like half-human, second-class people who don’t deserve our rights and freedoms as you do. It’s outright indecent.

          I disagree with the attitudes of certain groups of people, but I don’t make up facts designed to attack their good character.

          And if I should choose to do insult someone or a group of people, I do not get to make the erroneous claim that I am not attacking the individual, because as the aggressor, I am seeking to hurt and denigrate that very group or individual that I am attacking.

          If you want to disagree with me, then disagree with me. Don’t use the ad hominem tactic that Dan Savage, Christopher Hitchens or this “gays are promiscuous” comment that I replied to that are use to denigrate their opponents.

          • Jack_Savage

            Instead of throwing a hissy fit and disappearing. You’ve been presented with facts. Refute them. That’s how it works.

          • zachv

            On corporate finance tomorrow at 10AM and another on derivatives and trading securities at 3PM, and a job interview on Thursday. I don’t have the time to refute every one of these claims as I shouldn’t be posting on RS in the first place.

          • Jack_Savage

            All that and saving the world by posting here too?

            Good luck on the finals, and the job interview.

          • Viet71

            I disagree with you on gay marriage. But I like your voice.

          • zachv

            You’re a very level-headed and reasonable advocate for conservatism.

          • zachv

            If I’m doling out the praise. Like Viet71, you’re a very laudable, principled and well argued RS poster.

          • Bill S

            The next time you question someone’s post, ask for evidence. Don’t go on a direct attack rant against another commenter. You say “make up facts,” yet you don’t have a bloody idea where the OP got their information. You don’t have a corner on the market of facts.

            In case you hadn’t noticed, your position is not exactly one of the majority here. Don’t be surprised when you run into resistance. You are pretty much wasting your breath, because I assure you that virtually no one is going to be persuaded – especially with your temperament. Do what Jack_Savage says – refute. Don’t whine and throw fits. You might at least wind up with a draw.

      • califgal

        google, zachv, if you are actually serious and don’t know this to be true.

        My son works in the field of genomics, and as you know might know, if you keep up with the research, genome wide association studies have failed again and again to reveal alleles that are responsible for male disinterest in the female form.

        Because he is in the wider field of genetic studies, he talks regularly to those who are involved in specific genomic studies on male homosexuality, researchers who conduct not only biological studies, but in doing so have worked closely with gays male in an effort to recruit study participants. You can’t work closely with the gay community, researcher or not, w/out learning a great deal about the prevailing attitudes.

        In addition, anyone living in or close to SF and its suburbs, as I have, knows personally many gays, and knows great deal about he community….unless of course, one’s eyes are closed.

        Sexually monogamous gay male couples are almost exclusively older gents in their 60s or 70s.

      • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

        First, let me say that I do not support any kind of “open” marriage or relationships. God’s plan for marriage is one man with one woman for life. Having said that, you asked for research.

        From one study here:

        Psychologist Dr Warwick Hosking surveyed 229 gay men in relationships aged 18-70 from across Australia for the study. Just over half (56%) reported being in monogamous relationships, 27% were in ?open? relationships (in which sex with outsiders is permitted) and 17% were in relationships in which they had sex with a third person or more with their partner.

        More than 73% of men surveyed said their relationship agreement had been reached through discussion, although monogamous relationships were more likely to be unspoken.

        and another here:

        After studying the sexual patterns of 566 gay male couples from the Bay Area for three years, lead researcher Colleen Hoff found that gay men negotiate ground rules and open their relationships as a way to build trust and longevity in their partnerships.

        “I think it’s quite natural for men to want to continue to have an active and varied sex life,” said 50-year-old technology consultant Dean Allemang from Oakland, who just ended a 13-year-open relationship and has begun another with a new boyfriend.

        and apparently Dan Savage thinks monogamy is “ridiculous” as he states in the video here.

  • califgal

    homosexual behavior (non-interest in available suitable females) as that in homo sapiens is the sheep.

    There are male animals (and homo sapiens) who don’t mate with females and that find other sexual outlets, but only man and the sheep are those who express no interest in mating with the opposite sex. (In other words, there are many species in which some males are outcompeted for mates by other males.)

  • califgal

    instead of detailing things here on a political blog, I’ll give you two three and leave the reading and thinking up to you:

    from 1999, the “Atlantic,” a three parter that first introduced germ theory to a wider audience… you can click on the other links provided by part 1 :

    http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99feb/germs.htm

    (let it be noted that the germ theory expoused/explained by the team has since borne a great deal of fruit–narcolepsy has been found to be caused by viruses (flu), some cases of schiz linked to specific viruses, others just recently linked to gluten intolerance in mother, the list is endless, and the evolutionary logic provided continues to answer all kinds of questions

    http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/depths-of-madness/

    —– from his blog, West Hunter http://westhunt.wordpress.com/

    http://gc.homeunix.net/ (click on the links to see relevant posts/statemenst/interview excerpts)

    Most likely the atypical orientation that leaves these men’s genes at a reproductive disadvantage is the result of an infection or inflammation, the side effect of which is disinterest in a suitable reproductive partner. The result is actually a misidentifying of a suitable mate. (of course, recent findings about parasitic manipulation of mammals, including man–ie. things like t. gondii–lead one to not toss out that possibility)

  • califgal

    One last comment and I mean no disrespect. If you are upset about my comments or conclusions as I put them forth, I suggest you start a program of reading, not in homosexuality–that can come later–but in evolutionary biology.

    I realize I am commenting on a blog on which there are many people who don’t subscribe to evolution, but you yourself do not seem to be anti-science as you refer to an article in National Geo and a reference to evolution.

    Give yourself some time to read beyond that, remember that many people in the field of research on homosexuality are gay themselves and tend to keep their fingers crossed about what will eventually be discovered. They have obvious biases. While I don’t condone research that roots for certain outcomes, I have to admit that it’s an understandable human propensity.

    For the longest time, researchers pulled for proof that there was a gay gene or genes. They were buouyed by polling data that showed that if people believed they hadn’t chosen to be gay, there’d be less stigma, and they are right. As more and more people began to believe that no one actually chooses his or her sexual orientation the way one chooses Coke or Pepsi, attitudes about gays softened.

    However, many began to fear that if being gay was actually coded in their DNA, science might try to change that. New fears developed. Gays are, I suppose, understandably skittish. However, more and more research has failed to turn up genetic coding. It’s much more likely that something in the environment (either in the womb enviro or in infancy/toddlerhood) is acting upon kids. As there is evidence of some familial clustering, it’s likely that whatever that agent is probably has more likelihood of affecting some kids than others.
    It’s probably a common childhood virus that winds up having this side effect in 2-3% of the male population.

  • renny

    no gay marriage ballot on any state has won a majority of voters. You think the o gave that fact any thought, just as NC voted the question down?

  • califgal

    That’s because the young are young…have been in all times and in all places. They haven’t the faintest notions of how an institution shapes society, what unintended consequences are, nor, in their youth, do they feel it’s worth their time to consider such matters, as doing so requires quiet time, observation, reflection, questioning, discussing, etc. They give gay marriage no more thought than they give Social Security and Medicare.

    The only thing that truly concentrates the mind of most young is the draft and a war.

    Can you recall what you were thinking about at 21, 22, 23 ? (Of course, today’s 30 is yesterday’s 23.)

    • acat

      You’re in good company, many other Red Staters have brought up the old Churchill restatement of Bismark’s saw “if a man isn’t a liberal at 18, he has no heart, but if he isn’t a conservative at 30, he has no brains”.

      The catch is .. 1965 was just *how* many years ago?

      *Fiscal* conservatism is showing up just fine among 40somethings, 30somethings, and even 20somethings today.

      *Social* conservatism? Not so much.

      Mew

      • califgal

        but how do you explain the series of losses for gay marriage, in spite of the polls?

        As a CA voter, I fully expected prop 8 to be defeated by a decent margin, but it passed, not by much, but it passed.

        Thing is, if the media hadn’t bludgeoned the listeners with tales of how people were now “accepting” of gay marriage, prop 8 would have passed by an even larger margin, I do believe.

        My participation in this thread is not an indicator of what I feel should be the emphasis of this campaign: economy, jobs, economy!

        Maybe I already posted this–can’t recall. Interesting demographics of NC vote:
        _______________________________________________________
        “Why Young Voters Won?t Tip the Gay Marriage Debate Anytime Soon”

        By Lazar Berman and Daniel BermanMonday, May 14, 2012

        Filed under:Culture, Government & Politics

        “The electorate may well be evolving, but it?s at a far more glacial pace than is being widely credited.

        “The landslide passage of Amendment One in North Carolina, which defines marriage as between one man and one woman, should give some pause to those who believe that young voters will be enough to tilt the balance in the near future in favor of gay marriage.

        “Conventional wisdom holds that support for gay marriage is tied to demographic change, and there is some truth to this. On average, opposition among voters falls with age. However, this does not mean that majority support for the legalization of same-sex marriage is inevitable. There is a difference between opposing something less stridently and actually supporting it, and all the evidence available from both the results in last Tuesday?s vote on Amendment One in North Carolina and Public Policy Polling?s final poll before the vote show that voters under 30 opposed the amendment only marginally.

        “In the absence of exit poll data, it is hard to be certain exactly how the vote broke down, but PPP?s final poll provides some clues.

        “In the poll, ‘yes’ was a vote to both ban gay marriage and prohibit local municipalities and state universities from offering partnership benefits. The latter was more significant, as North Carolina already does not recognize gay marriage.

        “The poll found support for Amendment One 55-39, with 6 percent undecided; in the actual vote, the margin was 61-39. This result matches past referenda on the issue, where undecided respondents to polls have nearly unanimously voted against same-sex marriage once in the voting booth. By reallocating those undecided respondents to ?yes? votes, we can get a rough estimate of how demographic groups voted on Tuesday.

        “Here is the PPP poll breakdown:

        at this analyses:

        http://www.american.com/archive/2012/may/why-young-voters-wont-tip-the-gay-marriage-debate-anytime-soon/article_print

        • acat

          What happened in NC1 (and CA8, for that matter) was that reliable Dem blocs voted against gay marriage. See the uproar among black pastors that Drudge has been highlighting for some anecdotal confirmation. I don’t think any pollster anticipated that. “Blacks vote Dem, therefore blacks will support gay marriage”.

          The problem with the data you post is that it’s based on static numbers. If, however, the split between 40somethings and 50somethings sticks, like the split between big-band kids and rock-n-roll kids did, then this win is a rearguard action, unless y’all can change the argument or the arena.

          It’s necessary for y’all to either re-define the anti-gay message with some new “harm” argument (the old ones aren’t working, see above) or it’s necessary to change the arena – move from defending marriage from gays to defending “church marriages” in general.

          I’ll see your survey, and respond by asking you to look at Barna’s numbers, especially around unchurched perception of church, but also at the numbers around young people who have left the church. Consider what they mean if people drift toward fiscal conservatism, but not social conservatism.

          Mew

          • Jack_Savage

            Which quite frankly, is a crock. This is about gay marriage, not gays.

            But to address your point, gay marriage has failed every single time it is put to a vote. Every single time. Yet you, and others, say that attitudes are changing and that it is just a matter of time. You do so without any solid data whatever. It is obvious to anyone that for some reason, the polls and the voting characteristics of those polled simply don’t add up. Your opinion that times are a changin’ is based on obviously flawed polling and anecdotes.

            It really is time to prove your point with data, I think. I’ll start with the data point 31-0. Your turn.

            As far as young people leaving the church, maybe it has more to do with the church aligning itself with popular culture instead of being a bulwark against it.

          • acat

            At one point, slavery was popular throughout the south.

            At one point, legalized segregation was seen as normal.

            At one point, North Carolina had popular laws against interracial marriage.

            My point – and you do seem hell-bent on ignoring it rather than addressing it – is that this is a long-term losing argument for the church.

            Times change, Jack.

            Mew

          • Bill S

            …the idea that we should also “redefine” our message about global warming, gun control, healthcare reform, student loans, income equality and corporate welfare, since the young people also disagree on those. Where do you propose we draw the line in knuckling under to the Left-thinking youth?

            The “young people don’t agree” line is just BS. If we were to change our tune on every issue that young people disagree with us on, we’d be farther left than Obama.

            And “the church” (at least the part of the church that’s actually concerned about Biblical truth) does not give in to the whims of the culture. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. And it’s been wrong since before the Scripture was penned. And it will continue to be. Interestingly, Hebrews 13 contains two verses relevant to this: v.4 – “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.” and v.8 – “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” God does not change, nor does his Word.

            Nor does marriage.

          • acat

            Regarding gays, it’s not “the young people” any longer. Unless – get your calculator – someone born in 1964 is now “young people”.

            The children of the ’60s don’t automatically see “gay” and think “child molester” or “prison rapist”. Their parents taught ‘em tolerance, in the wake of the civil rights movement, and .. they’ve applied it. Perhaps more broadly than intended.

            I have no problem with the church holding marriage up to the standards you cite. The trouble is, from the outside, it *looks like* y’all are more interested in reserving it as a straights-only club than enforcing those rules.

            Mew

          • Jack_Savage

            You are correct in saying that slavery, segregation and bans on interracial marriage were once popular. In other words, they were part of the culture of the day.

            Many churches went along with these things in order to be aligned with the popular culture. Those churches were wrong because they ignored or misinterpreted scripture in their rush to do so. They are wrong today when they ignore or misinterpret scripture to jump on the gay marriage bandwagon.

            Again, thanks for making my point.

          • PowerToThePeople

            Slavery was popular at one time or another throughout the entire Nation, not just the south. In fact even as slavery was abolished, most in the North and South still had no problem with slavery and viewed blacks as sub-human.

            And at one point, nearly every state had laws against interracial marriage, not just North Carolina.

            And regardless of your point, the items you raise do not equate with gay marriage, are not even close to the same, and it is pure BS that you keep trying to compare them.

            And times can change all they want, it still does not make wrong right.

          • califgal

            “times change,” and “attitudes change.” Who can argue with that?

            I can’t. They do (the times) and they do (attiitudes). It’s not always so simple to predict the when or the what, however.

            Whether we reach a state soon when gay marriage is accepted in all states is still a toss-up, but if someone forced me to make a bet I’d bet that yes rather than no because the media and Hollywood and Manhattan push for it, and they control the airwaves and popular entertainment.

            There’s a wild card, though, one that most people are unaware of, and it will definitely affect attitudes toward gay people and thus, attitudes toward same-sex unions and marriage. I am positive how it will affect attitudes toward gay people, a little less sure how it will impact attitudes toward same-sex marriage.

            The wild card is this: the cause of most male same-sex attraction will be determined in the next 5-10 years. Hints about the general cause will come sooner than that as the lastest 1000 person sample genomic sequencing results are scrutinized and the research put forth.

            When the specific trigger is determined, science will be able to prevent its development in the fetus or the infant. It will proceed quietly. All that will be needed is for parents to give consent, likely to a vaccine, a vaccine that doesn’t vaccinate against homosexuality but rather vaccinates against the pathogen that it is sometimes a by-product of. The virus will turn out to be a common childhood virus, one almost all kids on the globe are exposed to, but which in a few have this side effect among other side effects in others. Vaccinating against the pathogen will become a regimen parents follow.

          • fightnright

            That’s fascinating information, caligal, I’m glad I was here to learn of it.

            Unless the pathogen/virus is deadly, or has other negative permanent effects, the great debate to follow, then, might be fought over such an the annihilation of the gay community. Anyone who has worked with or followed the pride movements in the deaf, Asperger’s/high functioning autistic cultures are familiar with the negativity against those who feel that ‘otherness’ equals inferiority, if defined by difference or disability. Many with HF Autism/Aspergers and even some with schizophrenic disorders feel it is a form of bigotry for parents of even very young children to try to ‘therapize’ them into performing ‘neurotypically’.

            I’m not a proponent of gay ‘marriage’, but I can see the blowback from what might be labeled a genocide. Then again, if parents favor it so broadly as might be expected, the debate may reduced within a couple of generations to ‘nobody was left to speak for me’.

          • garfieldjl

            Okay going with your theory that Homosexuality is genetic, there is a flaw with your argument right off the bat. Homosexual couples by definition cannot produce offspring.

            Two people on the autistic spectrum can have children provided that they are opposite genders. In fact there can be kids born from such a pairing that aren’t even on the spectrum, kids born on the spectrum, etc.

            I’m of mixed feelings about therapy for kids on the spectrum, you have to be very careful because there are people out there in the academic community that push for a therapy that is actually conditioning to behave a particular way to certain stimuli. Kids on the spectrum can benefit from therapy though, I would argue because we develop differently from neurotypicals, sometimes therapy can help so that we pick up language and can communicate.

            There is a tough balancing act, on the one hand someone on the spectrum like me should be respected for our differences, however I don’t expect “neurotypicals” to be forced to fit in with people on the spectrum either.

            Key difference here is that I didn’t choose to be on the spectrum, and while you can argue that Homosexuals didn’t initially choose whom they would instinctively be attracted to, they can choose to get in bed with someone of the same gender. I can’t choose to stop being Autistic because it is simply how my brain operates. Homosexuality isn’t simply one’s genetic code, even using your argument, it has to do with someone acting on those impulses.

          • fightnright

            I’m not sure whether you are replying to the conversation above or my post alone, but just wanted you to know that it is not my personal theory of homosexuality and genetics posited in my comment. I was replying to another poster’s suggestion that it might be found to be so.

            My comment was also only related to gay relationships, marriage and child-bearing tangentially in this thread. I never speculated on the morality or validity of such relationships here, though I believe that marriage has developed as a protection ensuring mutual commitment for any dependents that may be newly created by a male/female pairing, not as a broad testimonial or celebration of social recognition for all bonded relationships . The latter might be protected by other legal means.

            As you know, I was relating the issue to the deaf, autistic spectrum while reflecting upon the possibility of ending communities of people with differences, whose members believe they are enriching human culture, not diminishing it. My final sentence, noting that within a few generations of the application of such ‘cures’, there will be nobody to speak up for them, I hope indicates my concern regarding such an outcome.

          • garfieldjl

            Before you start, I’m on the Autistic Spectrum, the attempt to find the genes so they can “cure” Autism via abortions is already underway. Thankfully scientists ran into a major stumbling block.

            If someone is born attracted to someone of the same gender via genetics is one that is not prone to reproduction.

            People on the spectrum can and do have kids, some kids are born on the spectrum some are not. However, being on the spectrum can be an advantage in certain fields. There has been a recent spike in number of kids being found to be on the spectrum because people at the high-functioning end are able to be identified now.

            I was born being on the spectrum, no matter what my brain simply operates differently than most people’s.

            Someone that chooses to sleep with someone of the same gender is making a conscious decision to do so. I can’t go and choose one day not to be Autistic because it has nothing to do with conscious actions I take. That is the key difference assuming we are talking about genetics.

            There is a reason why I’m pro-life, and that’s cause I’m well aware of what Abortion is currently being used for and that is eugenics.

            As far as genetics of those on the spectrum, well they’ve actually found that a lot of the negative stereotypes were the result of other things on top of the Autism. I would argue that many of the kids on the spectrum would be higher functioning if they had received early intervention (that wasn’t designed by a quack). We develop differently than “neurotypicals,” and I would argue that certain stages of development end up being neglected.

            I think homosexuality and Autism are entirely different subjects, homosexuality involves making a conscious act, whereas Autism does not. You can’t choose to be Autistic, you either are on the spectrum or you aren’t.

            Messing with a child’s genetics is a very sticky subject, the only time I can see it where there is a dilema from a moral standpoint is if said genetics result in a serious health issue for the child, like a heart defect or a seizure disorder (which was a real risk for me because people on the spectrum can develop this during adolescence, if it doesn’t happen by the time you are an adult then you aren’t going to develop it (which leads me to believe that it is something not necessarily associated with autism)),

            People whom are deaf may have a disadvantage, but they also have advantages that people that can hear often don’t realize. A person that is blind has advantages that people whom have 20/20 vision do not. Hey if you ended up in a situation where there was no way to see due to lack of visible light (let’s say a cave where your light sources failed), could you find your way out, probably not. A blind person on the other hand probably could retrace their steps or an idea of where to start.

            If I were a perspective parent and I found out that my kid would probably have autism, and they offered me to alter my kid’s genetic code so that they wouldn’t be on the spectrum, I quite frankly would say no. I wouldn’t have a problem with genetic alterations when it came to making sure there were not seizures or a heart defect that is something that is a dangerous health issue. I would want the kid to be on the high end of the spectrum, but I imagine any parent wants their kids to be exceptionally intelligent.

            Being born blind, deaf, or Autistic, is not the same as homosexuality. You can’t choose to not be blind, not be deaf (barring cocular implants (sp?)), nor can you choose to not be Autistic. A person can choose who they climb into bed with though, that is a conscious decision.

  • califgal

    I quoted the article, then gave the link, then my post disappeared on me, probably because I am not used to this new laptop and my wrist hit the mousepad. UGH.

    Anyway, I see the link I gave is there. It’s interesting.

  • califgal

    Exactly, but those who feel that way have rights over only their own body, not over the fetus or children of others.

    I can see some blowback too, but it will amount to no more than a puff.

    If tomorrow we found the cause of autism and a treatment for children, a treatment that would eradicate or reduce its effects, only an odd few parents wouldn’t seek the treatment.

    And so it goes.

    • garfieldjl

      At least when it comes to Down Syndrome, the reason that we’re not seeing as many people with Down Syndrome is that they are being aborted.

      People on the spectrum have been lucky thanks to the fact that they haven’t been able to isolate a specific gene, there is one they think is a marker, but scientists discovered that wasn’t necessarily the case. Heck there have even been cases of Identical Twins being on the spectrum, but at different functioning levels.

      The reason why I’m against abortion has to do with what you are referring to.

      That said, the ones we usually see advocating the attempt to use abortion to eradicate “undesirable traits” generally comes from the left.

  • zachv

    Alright. Life’s sorted. Officially graduated. With job! Whoop. Whoop. :D

    I don’t know where to start. What do I need to respond to?

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