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The Ground Zero Mosque Should Be Stopped

If you read no further, know this: RedState supports the Anti-Defamation League in its opposition to the so-called “Ground Zero mosque.” The ADL is right on all counts: in its rejection of bigotry, its affirmation of American religious freedom, and its declaration that common decency demands the end of this effort. As the ADL notes, this is “not a question of rights, but a question of what is right.”

The “Ground Zero mosque” is not right. It’s important to understand why.

PART I: A “GROUND ZERO MOSQUE”?

A primary talking point in defense of the “Ground Zero mosque” these days is that it is not, in fact, at Ground Zero. Sharif el-Gamal, its lead developer, is now giving interviews in which he emphasizes, “We are not at Ground Zero.” Saudi-funded Georgetown academic John Esposito informed CNN’s readers that it “is not at Ground Zero but two blocks away.” Huffington Post editor Matt Sledge devoted a rather long essay, complete with maps, to explaining that “it’s not at Ground Zero.” Liberal pundit Matthew Yglesias, typical of the apologist commentary emanating from the repetition of this point, has been having a field day asking where the New York City “Mosque Exclusion Zone” should be. (That Yglesias is reentering what for him has been the challenging field of geography is surely a credit to his moxie.) The list could go on: it is by now the near-universal apologia for the project, deployed by nearly everyone defending it.

To begin with, you have to wonder where some of these people were on September 11, 2001. The entire area west of Broadway, south of Chambers street and north of Wall Street was a front-row seat to mass murder that morning, and much of that area was showered with pulverized debris (mixed among it the bodies of the dead). Few of the national parks and monuments commemorating America’s historic battlefields are so narrowly drawn as the defenders of the mosque would now define “Ground Zero.” Nobody who stood within that area that day would say that 51 Park Place is not within the location of the September 11 attacks.

But more fundamentally, the narrative here, assiduously and actively promoted by the “Ground Zero mosque” supporters, is that the project — originally to be called Cordoba House, now re-branded Park51 after massively negative publicity — is merely an Islamic-themed development project that is meeting opposition due to bigotry and a wholly unjust and unwarranted, happenstance linkage, perpetrated by its enemies, to the hallowed site of Ground Zero.

This is a lie.

The fact is that the groups behind the “Ground Zero mosque” / Cordoba House / Park51 chose the site explicitly for its proximity to Ground Zero, and then spent months boasting about it in the press. Those groups are the Cordoba Initiative (run by Feisal Abdul Rauf, the “Ground Zero mosque’s” imam-to-be); the American Society for Muslim Advancement, or ASMA (run by Rauf’s wife, Daisy Khan); and SoHo Properties (run by the aforementioned Sharif el-Gamal, its CEO). Just a few brief but illustrative examples from the principals:

  • A December 8th, 2009, New York Times article stated, “The location [next to Ground Zero] was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims,” and quoted Rauf as noting that they got a property “where a piece of the [9/11] wreckage fell.” ASMA then touted the piecein its 2009 Year End Report.
  • A simple Google search of the Cordoba Initiative’s websitereveals the phrase “Ground Zero” to be seeded throughout as a rather inept 1999-era SEO tactic to bring people looking for information about Ground Zero to the mosque promoters’ website.
  • On May 5th and 6th, ASMA’s Daisy Khan was on her Twitter account, boasting first that the “new muslim center near ground zero gets unaminous vote of approval from community board one in downtown nyc,” and then that she had a “Media blitz day for ASMA / Cordoba [on the] muslim commuity center near ground zero.” 
  • On June 15th, Daisy Khan told the Washington Post’s Sally Quinn that “a divine hand” led to the Ground Zero proximity.

Following the eruption of popular anger over their plans, the “Ground Zero mosque’s” proponents are attempting to rewrite history. El-Gamal, as seen above, now tells interviewers that there’s no “Ground Zero” at the “Ground Zero mosque,” and Khan’s tweets have the same phrasing, but a rather different emphasis. From July 28th: a “muslim community center NEAR ground zero.”

This list could go on at some length, but this is sufficient to demonstrate that the “Ground Zero mosque’s” stewards aren’t unfairly tarred by the phrase: they wanted it. Everyone discussing this issue should face this fact squarely and honestly. It’s the “Ground Zero mosque” because it was conceived and intended as the “Ground Zero mosque.”

Live by “Ground Zero,” die by “Ground Zero.” It’s difficult to get an accurate count of mosques in New York City — Google’s map ludicrously omits the mass of storefront mosques on Brooklyn’s Atlantic Avenue alone — but we do know that there are many mosques in the city, including some within reasonable walking distance of Ground Zero. Why are there no protest movements against them? Why does the ADL not denounce them? Why do we not oppose them, but in fact welcome them as part of the glorious tapestry of American life and the world’s greatest city? Why is it only this project that generates public disgust, hostility and opposition?

The arrogant and insensitive “Ground Zero” branding of Rauf, Khan and el-Gamal is why.

PART II: WHY IT’S WRONG.

To grasp exactly why the “Ground Zero mosque” / Cordoba House / Park51 is so objectionable, it is useful to consider a range of hypotheticals, in which a site of an infamous slaughter is appropriated by promoters of the group that perpetrated that slaughter. Ask yourself whether any of the following would be morally acceptable, if not simply rejected by an outraged world:

There are undeniably good and laudable things about the cultures and faiths of the Southern United States, Turkey, Japan, Serbia, and European Christianity in general: yet promoting them at the very sites of their historic crimes is rightly repellent. These sites ought to be places of apology and repentance — not promotion.

Rauf, Khan, and el-Gamal don’t grasp this, and in their failure to do so, their pretensions to be peacemakers, bridge-builders, and conciliators are laid bare as propagandistic frauds.

History-minded readers will note that the final “hypothetical” in this list is not actually hypothetical at all: there actually was an effort to establish a Catholic convent outside of the Auschwitz death camp from the late 1980s through the early 1990s. The parallels between this episode and that of the “Ground Zero mosque” are striking — and the differences are instructive. Roman Catholics per se were not the perpetrators of the Holocaust — to put it mildly, if you truly understand the history of Nazism and the Catholic Church — whereas Muslims acting in purported glorification of their faith were the perpetrators of 9/11; yet the late Pope John Paul II, in 1993, ordered the Auschwitz convent closed not because he felt Catholics were culpable for the Holocaust, but out of sensitivity to Jewish concerns. He understood that for Jews, this ground had been consecrated by the suffering of the victims of Auschwitz and rightly should be sacred to them and to their faith. This precedent was noted by ADL national director Abraham Foxman just last week, and indeed the ADL was involved in the controversy when it was current.

In this light, the ADL’s opposition to the “Ground Zero mosque” is not a departure from its tradition or mission, but a fulfillment of both. The number of liberal pundits ignorant of this history is simultaneously remarkable and unsurprising. Again, just a representative sample:

  • Joe Kleinwrote that the ADL is “making a mockery of its original mission.”
  • Jonathan Chaitwrote that the ADL “is no longer supportable.”
  • Adam Serwerwrote that “the ADL needs to go back to Hebrew School.”
  • Jeremy Ben-Amiwrote that the ADL “[gave] in to the fear-mongerers and pandering politicians.”
  • Jay Rosenwrote that his “alienation from and disgust with the ‘organized Jewish community’ (and the polity of Israel) is close to complete.”
  • Paul Krugman wrote that the “ADL has apparently forgotten” “that they need to be advocates of universal rights.”

Every one of these liberal pontificators is showing himself deeply ignorant not merely of the ADL and its history, but of the working of a free and democratic society. The idea that rights are tempered by responsibilities, and that civic life must not be an exercise in rights for their own sake, would have struck America’s Founders as not merely uncontroversial, but utterly necessary. From Benjamin Rush’s affirmation that “without virtue there can be no liberty,” to John Adams’s declaration that “[o]ur Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people, [and] is wholly inadequate to the government of any other,” the Founders knew that our liberal republic would last only if its public square was a place of consideration and reasoned restraint.

Interestingly, American liberals understand this when the offender is a dumb, picayune, publicity-seeking Florida pastor who’s planning to burn Korans in public. Then we get DailyKos front-pagers and Gawker writers telling us that rights should be tempered with responsibilities. They’re right, regardless of what the First Amendment may allow; the law is not the sum total of our conscience. But their moral inconsistency reveals the sad truth: they’re not opposed to the Koran-burning because they believe in a healthy American civic life, with decent people and public consideration. They’re opposed to it because they think the Koran-burner is right-wing. The same goes for the cross-burner.

By stark contrast, our opposition to the “Ground Zero mosque” (and a Koranic bonfire) is not rooted in any partisan sentiment, except a plain and forthright love for America’s founding principles.

A “Ground Zero mosque” — even if only near Ground Zero, even if a “community center” rather than a mosque — is the opposite of reasoned restraint. It tramples upon the principle of a public square marked by democratic consideration. It displays a grotesque lack of generosity, while demanding extraordinary generosity toward itself. It insists upon rights — which no one disputes — and ignores responsibilities. It is, in short, a bitter vindication of the critics of American democracy at our nation’s Founding.

We may assume this “gaming” of American liberties is deliberate, if tacit, on the parts of the “Ground Zero mosque’s” stewards. Its liberal defenders, though, are simply demonstrating their ignorance, again, of what this country is all about. If we have talked ourselves into a belief that American liberties demand social toleration, or worse, approval of an Islamic site explicitly branded with “Ground Zero,” a mosque clothing itself in the respect accorded to the victims of that atrocity, then we must sincerely question whether our national life and purpose is damaged beyond repair.

We at RedState will not now or ever give that approval.

PART III: ISLAM IN AMERICA.

Feisal Abdul Rauf, Daisy Khan, Sharif el-Gamal, and their liberal apologists want you to understand this: they represent Islam in America, and rejecting their plans means rejecting that. Worse, it means a win for the terrorists. Worse, it means you’re a horrible bigot. Worse, it means “extremism” wins, and more 9/11s are inevitable. Because the Cordoba Initiative and ASMA are the sole legitimate representatives of “moderate” Islam, and this project is their only hope.

None of these propositions are logically defensible, but they are effective emotional and intellectual blackmail. The Washington Post’s Greg Sargent spoke for most “enlightened” opinion in the media elite when he wrote:

[O]pposition to this mosque appears to be all about insidiously linking the mosque builders with the 9/11 attackers, and by extension, to revive passions surrounding 9/11. To oppose the mosque is to capitulate to — and validate — this program. On this one, you’re either with the bigots or you’re against them.

There you have it: according to our liberal-media betters, there are no legitimate grounds for opposing the “Ground Zero mosque,” because there are bad people who also oppose it. (This is largely the same group that will become irate when one points out that the Taliban share their foreign-policy goals.) If you’re against it, you’re on the side of every civic sin imaginable, and the word “bigot” will come up in the first sentence.

Aziz Poonawalla, who supports the “Ground Zero mosque,” actually asked Sharif el-Gamal about this just over a week ago. See question 7 here: “Do you concede there are genuine, valid concerns about this project which are not derived from Islamophobia or racism?” One may read el-Gamal’s response for oneself: he avoids answering the question, and thereby does not concede any such thing. Nor do he or his colleagues ever intend to. He’s already denouncing the fracas over this as manufactured by the media — instead of, as demonstrated, by Cordoba’s and ASMA’s own media strategy — and his allies will assuredly be turning up the heat in coming weeks.

It must be clearly understood that the aim is to render support for the “Ground Zero mosque” an inescapable bona fide of polite mainstream sentiment.

We must aggressively reject this bullying from the outset. Fortunately, the facts are on our side. First and foremost, they demolish the contention that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf in particular is a “moderate” to whom we should extend unique consideration. Karl at the Hot Air Green Room has a good exposition of his problematic past and present:

Imam Feisal Rauf, the central figure behind the mosque project, has a public image as a devotee of the “contemplative” Sufi school of Islam, but his writings directed at Muslims are full of praise for Wahhabi fundamentalism. He has refused to “repudiate the threat from authoritative sharia to the religious freedom and safety of former Muslims,” a pledge issued nine months ago by ex-Muslims under threat for their “apostasy.” He refused to describe Hamas as a terrorist organization, and will not talk about the Muslim Brotherhood. He is an open proponent of integrating sharia into the law of Western countries. When speaking to Arabic audiences, he discounts the idea of religious dialogue. In an interview with the Sydney Morning Herald, Rauf said, “The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets.” Many people convincingly argue that Dresden and Hiroshima were military targets, but more important in this context is that neither was ordered on the basis of Christian theology. Regarding 9/11 specifically, Rauf told 60 Minutes in September 2001 that “United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.”

It’s certainly arguable that Rauf is a “moderate” in the context he hails from (he’s Kuwaiti-born, with American citizenship, and spends most of his time in Malaysia), but in America, a refusal to denounce Hamas is rightly nothing less than loathsome extremism. That’s the context that matters: contrary to the arguments of Rauf, et al., Americans should not feel compelled to surrender their hallowed ground — nor even its invocation — to help them in an intra-Islamic contest. Without dismissing the significance of that contest, “supports Hamas” versus “doesn’t not support Hamas” is not much of a choice if you’re enthusiastic about basic freedoms and our Constitution.

Add to this toxic mix the deliberate opacity behind the “Ground Zero mosque’s” funding, and the narrative that holds this project to be a boon to “moderation” becomes flimsy indeed. El-Gamal wouldn’t forego foreign funding, nor even pledge funding transparency, in his interview with Poonawalla; nor did the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies’s Clifford May get a direct answer from the Cordoba Initiative on foreign money.

Let us state forthrightly that the “Ground Zero mosque” stewards are evasive on foreign funding because the project would almost certainly collapse without it. Let us further say directly that they refuse to commit to public transparency in their funding because public knowledge of their funders would eradicate their pretensions to moderation and American identity both.

We will not be coerced into pretending that this group has somehow proven itself representative of Islam in America. We know that there are plenty of American Muslims who love our country, and who oppose the “Ground Zero mosque.” M. Zuhdi Jasser served America in the U.S. Navy, rising to the rank of lieutenant commander. He is now president of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, and has written movingly of his opposition to the “Ground Zero mosque”: “The World Trade Center site represents Ground Zero in America’s war against radical Islamists who seek to destroy the American way of life. It is not ground zero of a cultural exchange.” Stephen Schwartz converted to Islam at age 49, and is the Executive Director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism. Of the “Ground Zero mosque,” Schwartz has gone on record saying that “Cordoba House comes across as ‘grossly insensitive.’” Still other American Muslim leaders, like the Iraqi-born Zainab al-Suwaij of the American Islamic Congress (who went from guerrilla fighter against Saddam Hussein to American citizen), offer us a model of Islamic leadership that affirms American principles without the obfuscation and inept manipulation that is the hallmark of Rauf, Khan, el-Gamal, and the rest of the “Ground Zero mosque” crowd.

Let’s be clear on this count: Islam has a future in America, but that future doesn’t lie in the self-promoting “Ground Zero mosque” set. It lies in American Muslims who actually understand their country — and hat, we are optimistic enough to believe, is most of them.

On a personal note: if we at RedState are confident in rejecting the arrogant pretense of the Cordoba and ASMA clique, and the preening hysterics of their liberal allies, it is because we have no small experience with Islam ourselves. Our editor in chief spent much of his childhood in the United Arab Emirates. One of our founders has traveled across the Muslim world, from east Africa to the Middle East to south Asia. We count among our friends American Muslims of sterling reputation and unimpeachable patriotism. Some of us have married Muslims. Others of us have gone to war alongside Muslims.

With this collective experience, and with the assurance that we join the majority of Americans in rejecting the “Ground Zero mosque” as the cheap, foreign-funded publicity gambit it is, we are proud to join the Anti-Defamation League on this issue. The ADL stated that this is “not a question of rights, but a question of what is right.”

What is right is this: Ground Zero is a battlefield, and the “Ground Zero mosque” is an affront to its hallowed dead. If it is built (and that is, sadly, likely to happen) Americans walking past it will assuredly be reminded of that affront, why we’re fighting — and who.

 

COMMENTS

  • fpete13527
  • BooBooKitty

    Explain it once, that’s enough- and then just refer negative commenters to this post.

  • msctex

    A few days ago I came across a discussion of this topic on a board I must acknowledge would be far more interested in Lindsey Lohan’s comings and goings than any matter of substance. But each and every commenter was outraged by the “bigotry” at play on the part of those opposing the mosque, and one went so far as to ask why we “just didn’t understand that allowing the mosque to be built could only bring us closer and show the inclusive nature of this country,” or words to that effect.

    I know you can always find a fool. But we have allowed fools to be cultivated for decades, and taught that Feelings are more important than facts, and that there are no bad people in the world, just the misunderstood and misinformed. The idea of someone who would slit their throat just for being an American in reach is literally beyond these people. They are as much a threat to our lives and freedoms as are the avowed enemy, as they will open the gates if given the opportunity. Look at London.

  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

    From the NYT 2009 article you cited in this post:

    “But for months now, out of the public eye, an iron gate rises every Friday afternoon, and with the outside rumblings of construction at ground zero as a backdrop, hundreds of Muslims crowd inside, facing Mecca in prayer and listening to their imam read in Arabic from the Koran.

    The building has no sign that hints at its use as a Muslim prayer space, but these modest beginnings point to a far grander vision…”

    Thank you for posting this.

  • flyer603

    Lost in all of the pseudo-patriotic posturing and puffing by Gingrich, Palin et al., is the fact that it is against Federal Law for the City or State of New York to attempt to prevent the use of the buildings in question for religious (including Islamic) purposes absent a compelling government interest in preventing that use. The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (“RLUIPA”), (U.S.C. ? 2000cc-1 et seq.), section 2(a)(1) states that:
    “No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation in a manner that imposes a substantial burden on the religious exercise of a person, including a religious assembly or institution, unless the government demonstrates that imposition of the burden on that person, assembly, or institution–
    (A) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (B) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.”
    In other words, if the City of New York tried to oppose the use of the building in question as a mosque or other place of religious assembly, it would have to demonstrate a compelling interest in why it should be able to do so. And even it can show a compelling interest, it must also show that preventing the use is the least restrictive way of furthering that interest. In terms of constitutional law, that is the highest possible hurdle to placing a restriction on the practice of religious and is practically impossible to do.
    It is ironic that RLUIPA was pushed through largely by Christian groups to prevent local governments from placing zoning restrictions on churches. Of course, they only meant it to apply to Christian churches, not those others – i.e. no one here is huffing or puffing about the people wanting to have the 10 commandments in courthouses – yeah, no problem imposing religion on the remainder of the population as long as it’s YOUR religion.

  • JamesSmith130

    and thus doesn’t get the 1st Amendment protections.

  • JamesSmith130

    to this mosque at 52-31. Let’s comprehend this, just 31% of one of the most liberal cities in the nation support this. I think that’s very telling.

  • flyer603

    and simply because you believe someone to be radical, doesn’t make it so. Sufi and Wahabi are as different as night and day. Despite the fervent wishes of people that Rauf we considered an extremist, the fact is he’s not. Don’t take my word for it, do your own research.

  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

    into a theocracy or a no-theocracy where every faith will be suppressed to “calm extremists.”

    Do your research.

    Theocratic Islamic states are totalitarian, period, regardless of “democratic elections.”

    But you’re right on one thing:

    “yeah, no problem imposing religion on the remainder of the population as long as it?s YOUR religion”

    This is not America where Islamic platitude are forced upon a Christian nation by an Educator-in-Chief via Islamic platitutdes.

    Sanctioning the 5th pillar of jihad as “legitimate” is all the rave now, haven’t you heard?

  • Dan McLaughlin

    The relevant point being, even if it may not be legally possible for the government to stop the mosque, public pressure and shame ought to cause the mosque’s backers (including its secret financial backers) to rethink the project.

    If this was a Klan rally, everyone would understand that: what the law may not forbid, common decency must denounce.

  • aesthete

    Dare I ask, what does it mean practically? Do you support legislation to achieve those ends? If so, from what level of government: local, state, or federal? I oppose the mosque as a private citizen and have made calls to that effect and stood rhetorically with those who oppose it as private citizens exercising their First Amendment rights. This post, while a good one for showing what is repellant about the Ground Zero Mosque, leaves your stand on legislation banning it somewhat ambiguous. If you were progressives, it wouldn’t be an issue: for them, something being bad automatically means that government should step in. For conservatives and libertarians, that is not the case: we have often made a point of defending the rights of repugnant individuals (Nazis and racists come to mind) or ill-advised actions (smoking, binge drinking, and other risky activities) from legislation for the sake of defending our own rights, even as we attempt to mitigate those very things as private citizens through non-coercive action. Should the mosque be there? No. Should we use the force of some level of government to forcibly remove it? That’s the question whose answer for you I’m not clear on.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Dhimmi is an institution of subjugation that goes beyond church authority and into the civil authority.

    We don’t allow the sacrifice of humans just because a certain sect sees fit to include that in it’s rite and rituals.

  • flyer603

    but not so much as it applies to Sufi’s – which Rauf is. Your somewhat sweeping generalization is that ALL Islam believes in Sharia, which is not the case. That is primarily as a Sunni trait, and more to the point, and extremist Sunni interpretation. It’s like saying Appalachian Snake-handlers are the same as Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses or Catholics. They aren’t nor should they considered the same simply because they all believe in Jesus Christ.

  • brainlemon

    Your argument basically comes down to this – the Islamic center would be really offensive, and thus the government has the right to forcibly stop it? I find this odd coming from conservatives who generally are against using government force. All of a sudden, when it comes to things you don’t like such as Islam, it is cool.

  • flyer603

    Sharia Law – which we do not. Extremists were able to achieve this Egypt through control of the military and a slow conversion of the population to Islam. This isn’t happening here and the analogy doesn’t apply – neither does the “human sacrifice” analogy.

  • Dan McLaughlin

    at least as a formal site position. But it’s absolutely the case that we have an obligation to speak out against it, at a minimum.

  • ceili_dancer

    /snark

  • Aaron Gardner
  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

    with your comment title “freedom of religion only counts if you’re a christian…”

    We allow Appalachian Snake-handlers, Mormons, Jehovah?s Witnesses and Catholics, but none of those faiths is a political, totalitarian regime like Islam.

    Muslims are also free to worship.

    And, the community has a right to protest any business or structure and get it moved if it doesn’t seem suitable.

    In this case, the area around WTC is America’s community. It became so on 9/11 and we say it’s a no-go, it’s insensitive, and we know the TRUTH.

    Here we are, finding a suitable way to memorialize our dead at Ground Zero, while they quietly find a way to memorialize their own.

    If their purpose was to be inclusive, they would have assisted with the raising of the new WTC.

    Instead, they segregated themselves to suit their own purpose — to symbolize a people conquered.

    Their site memorializes the Islamic martyrs who murdered 3,000 people — which would have been more had they been successful in taking out the Capital or White House.

    The site was CHOSEN to worship the terrorists’ fulfillment of their jihad.

    Much the same Catholics “worship” where a great saint’s head may have fallen after they were beheaded.

    If you know your Islam, you know your history, so quit your spinning on Constitutional grounds.

    Take your puffy Newt and Palin hate somewhere else.

  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

    because our military has already begun to submit to Islamic states via ROEs and pseudo-peackeeping missions.

    Slow conversion of the population to Islam, .. and we begin by protecting Islam and supporting sharia law.

    The analogy applies.

    We have no-go zones in America. Sharia is here, now.

    Via slow conversion. You said it, not us.

  • flyer603

    If the best counter argument you have is that drivel, I’m guessin were done here….

  • flyer603

    n/t

  • JSobieski

    Sharia law is definitely manifesting itself in Europe, and there have been some data points here as well. At least one trial court used Sharia principles in saying that perparator of domestic violence didn’t have sufficient mens rea (criminal intent) to rape his wife because his religion allowed the behavior. Now, the decision in that case was overturned, but the trial court did essentially apply Sharia law principles.

  • ceili_dancer

    Have you seen the video of the police arresting some Christian folk handing out a pamphlet on a PUBLIC street outside a street festival. The police come in 8 IIRC all doing the bubba belt grab on their service belts. They arrest them, confiscate their cameras all of this happening in the USA not in some backwater third world despot driven country. No sharia creeping there.

  • JSobieski

    Educate yourself rather than simply assume facts.

  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

    progressive spin and fake denial to bait and mislead people who don’t know or understand.

    Liked your exampes down below, btw. 15 years behind Europe sounds about right.

    They forget we’re not Europe.

    America isn’t an ideal place for the renewal of Islam.

    They need to forget it.

  • aesthete

    In that case, I’m glad the RS Directors took the time to write this post.

  • flyer603

    there are plenty of examples of real extremism happening in this country without having to push to the manufactured stuff…

    http://www.investigativeproject.org/maps/terrorism-map.php

  • JSobieski

    There are for more Sharia law manifestation data points in the US over the past 10 years than there were the previous 100 years

  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica
  • JSobieski

    Note that you don’t have to be a terrorist to be spreading sharia law precepts.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/07/they-ctd-2.html

    Nice ctrl-c function, isn’t it?

    No wonder you couldn’t answer on the military or Dearborn.

    Throwing a google result of the IPT national terrorism map won’t cut it.

    You must be MSA. I hear they’re not doing very well up in Irvine.

    We’re done here.

  • mriggio

    the government has the right to forcibly stop it. Must be buried in a footnote or something…

  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica
  • caseoftheblues

    IMHO…..look at the facts around it…it has been and continues to be a geopolitical ruthless oppressive form of totalitarian government that has as it’s end game the death and destruction of ALL countires and individuals who will not be conquered. Now explain why we should be tolerant of that attitude…that belief that they think they have the right to kill us for not being them!! Sheer lunancy!! It simply does not fit the parameters of what civilized society considers to be a true religion. To claim anything else is to simply be utterly naive or stupid (you pick). Just look into what the practice of “moderate” islam in “moderate” muslim countries entails….THEN post a response.

  • pamela1631

    the Title back to the original owner.
    See if anywhere in the past there were restrictions on the “use” of the land that have been ignored.

    Look at the geology of the site. There must be something in the past that will assist in the stoppage today.

    Pray their funding suddenly dries up and is gone like dust on the wind.

  • RedBeard

    That seems to be a major ploy in getting the mosque built.

    Common decency is not operative in the attempt to build this mosque in this location. Therefore, shame cannot be felt by the Muslims involved in developing the site.

    New York City is a big place. If the people pushing this mosque truly believe in healing the rift and getting along, they will find another location. But of course they believe in no such thing, and do not want to relocate, because the true purpose of this mosque cannot be fulfilled if it is moved to a less sensitive location.

  • Tbone

    Thank you.

    Now, on behalf of us poor rednecks that are just totally pissed that a bunch of cultists want to wipe our nose in the remains of 9/11, I say screw the effing Muslims and send them back to wherever they and their stone age culture might fit in this world.

    I really could care less about their feelings, rights or aspirations. And, don’t give me a bunch a crap about good Muslims and bad Muslims. I can’t tell them apart and really have no interest in learning the differences. I suggest if there are Muslims who actually believe in the 21st century, western law, human rights and religious freedom, they should boot the bad ones out before we have to kill all of them to keep the bad ones from killing us.

  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

    of the landing gear’s landing spot, the site of the proposed Ground Zero Mosque (here, in case you missed it.)

    A better comparison would be one most Christians would understand.

    And that would be traveling to Jerusalem to pray in the Church that holds the pillar upon which Christ was scourged.

    Or to pray and walk along the Way of the Cross.

    Or to pray in the Church that stands on the spot where he was crucified.

    Or to pray in the Church where his tomb and the Resurrection took place.

    This is their objective. Unification has nothing to do with it.

    If they want to have outreach and healing, then give us the cash to rebuild the towers exactly as they were.

    That would be healing.

    Everytime I look at a NYC skyline, I still look for those buildings, nearly 10 years later, and I have never set foot in NY state.

    I can only imagine how New Yorkers feel.

  • stephaniet

    …that if there are Muslims who actually believe in the 21st century, western law, human rights, and religious freedom, they should ditch the Islam and try something else. Heard a story just recently about a Muslim guy who forced himself on his wife and didn’t get charged for rape because apparently, you can rape your wife because it’s in the Koran! I think Mohammed was a pervert, really…

  • Dan McLaughlin

    that something of that nature could be done, I personally just haven’t worked through what the alternatives are and whether I could support them, nor have we taken a position on any of those.

    Giuliani was able to use a lot of different tools to crack down on sex shops and peep shows and the like – not drive them from the City entirely, but at least reclaim the crucial public spaces from them. There may be ways to do that here, at least create conditions that encourage the backers to relocate north of Chambers or east of Broadway, I have no objection whatsoever to a downtown mosque, just not one promoted this way or so close to Ground Zero.

  • rbdwiggins

    It has been twisted into an authoritarian socio-economic and political system by radical Islamists, and it will remain so until moderate Muslims reject sharia and jihad ( except as a private belief and inner struggle), purge the Islamists from their ranks and embrace the 21rst Century culture of freedom and Liberty.

    The Ground Zero Mosque is the imposition of sharia by stealth means. It is no less an integral part of the jihad against the United States, which began with the taking of the United States Embassy in Tehran on November 4, 1979, than the September 11, 2001 attacks on the Twin Towers, the Pentagon and United Flight 93.

    Therefore, the Ground Zero Mosque is an act of war. For that reason, it must be defeated.

  • http://imscattershot.wordpress.com rws197

    the Mosque is going to be graffitied by many pissed-off adolescent New Yorkers, and probably a few adults too.

  • Tbone
  • BooBooKitty

    but a question of what is right- this is spelled out in the first few sentences of the post.

    Long time no see Flyer, I see your modus operandi remains the same.

  • proudgop

    I have a view of where the World Trade Towers would be standing from my place here in West Village so I take this issue of safety important. That said, I have to disagree with this opinion.

    First, this is a NYC issue I don’t feel people outside of city or state have any say. Second, NYC is a city of culture and many different religions; Islam did not cause 9/11 fanatics who hijacked its religion did. Third, how can we say we want freedom of religion if this were a church being built next door it wouldn’t even be an issue?

  • samsapeel

    Boy, there sure are a lot of folks here eager to toss religious freedom out the window when they dislike the religion.

    Personally, I believe that the worship of Islam should be BANNED outright throughout ALL of the United States. It is not only a clear threat to non-muslim individuals, it poses a danger to our government — not to mention our culture and society. Islam seeks the imposition of religious theocracy in this country as it does in every other country. It also seeks to replace our Constitutional and Common Law with Islamic Sharia Law. It therefore ineluctably preaches the overthrow of not only our current government, but our entire manner of governance.

    However, until the practice of Islam is OUTLAWED entirely (as it ought to be), I cannot advocate for denying them their religious freedoms piecemeal just because I find their religion evil in the extreme.

    Moreover, in a saner America, I might actually SUPPORT the building of this particular mosque. It will be — as it is INTENDED to be — a MONUMENT to the victory of Islam over the American Infidel on September 11, 2001. So, why support it? Well, as I said — in a saner America — the erection of such a monument might increase awareness of and anger at the fact that we were indeed attacked by a religion; that most adherents of that religion were joyous at the success of this attack and would like to celebrate it by building a religious monument on the site of the death and destruction that they wreaked; and that that religion and its adherents would love nothing more than to repeat that success.

    Of course, America is not sane. I cannot SUPPORT the mosque, because those Americans who like to deny the evil that is Islam would never be outraged by the erection of a monument to the murder of their fellow citizens by Islam.

    Still, until the religion is banned as it logically and rationally should be; this is a nation where persons have a right to outrage me. I would never wish it differently. And those who suggest that the building of this mosque be stopped are starting down a very dangerous road. The slipperiest of slopes. Especially in light of the current Anti-Theistic, Communist coup d’etat we are experiencing and knowing the agenda that said communists have for people of every religion (ESPECIALLY Christians and Jews).

    I am astounded that anyone would be this knee-jerk STUPID, to deny RIGHTS to others that they would not have denied to them.

  • furious

    …on the planes and in the Towers.

    “Islam did not cause 9/11″, but there sure was lots of footage of celebrations throughout the Muslim world when the Towers fell.

    “If this were a church”, but then the Highjackers weren’t chanting “Help me, Jesus!” as they went on Final Approach.

    The Byzantine Greeks had the decency to resist to the bitter end before their
    Muslim conquerors could raise minarets over Constantinople. NYC Planning Commission and Mayor Bloomberg, not so much.

  • Sunnie57

    NY’s Attorney General Andrew Cuomo has been asked, and asked, to investigate where the money to build the mosque is coming from, but he will NOT.

    And he wants to be GOVERNOR of NEW YORK STATE.

    “Al Qaeda doesn’t have to infiltrate the mosque, they are already in. The Attorney General must examine and investigate the alleged ties and funding by Xenel Corporation and Imam Rauf and Daisy Khan. ”

    excerpt http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/07/terror-finded-ground-zero-mosque-imam-raufs-bin-laden-link.html

  • pamela1631

    A rather unpleasant correlation has pushed it way front and center.

    Building a mosque/community center/whatever you call it anywhere in that vicinity is tantamount to telling a gang rape victim she MUST marry one of her rapists. Since there is already a basis from the former contact, not matter how violent and degrading the circumstances. The “Oh don’t worry your pretty little head, you’ll get use to him in time” attitude of Bloomberg and Company is reprehensible.

    Religion has nothing to do with the proposed construction.
    This is about power and humiliation.

  • furious

    …the Ummah’s greatest victory over the Great Satan.

    “Corboda Initiative” should have been a hint of the builders’ intentions: the Caliphate of Cordoba was, for almost 400 years, the seat of Muslim rule over occupied Spain and Portugal.

  • cactusjack

    It would be even worse to allow the building of a Japanese Shinto shrine for their war dead, at Ford Island, Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Not only would the resting bottom of USS Arizona be within yards, the partially above-water hulk of the USS Utah (still there today) would be there at a site unaccessible to non-military but very close to Arizona. Seeing her twisted, red rusted hulk is a much more grim & shocking experience than visiting the tourist accessiblee shrine above the completely submerged remains of the USS Arizona over to the other side of Ford Island. Sort of like the twisted rusted remains of the buildings at WTC before the clean up was completed. But then again, knowing the innate Japanese sense of reverence and striving for serenity of surroundings, they would never, never, never ask for such offensive construction to occur in the first place, not there. Their culture, though we fought them bitterly, would “get” this concept of “right place” the pro-Mosque-ers don’t, or don’t want to consider. Something to consider since the libs always want to construe respect for “foreign culture’ against us.

  • JSobieski

    You support religious freedom, but want Islam banned. Until Islam is banned, you don’t support any “piecemeal” restrictions because such limitations would violate religious freedom.

    You have very strange views. How do you reconcile the desire to ban a religion in its entirety (does this include people reading the Koran silently?) and the outrage you feel at far less comprehensive restrictions.

    How you can ban a religion without denying the rights of believers to practice that religion?

    I now have a headache.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • rbdwiggins

    and has nothing to do with religious freedom. It’s a precondition for subjugation and the imposition of sharia. Which is itself a precondition for Islamicizing American society. Violence, stealth, legal, political, academic, and financial. By any means possible.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    The whole country came to help NYC.

    The whole country struck back for NYC.

    Oh yes, and the attack was coordinated on NYC *and* DC.

    So once the national capital gets involved, it’s an issue for ALL of us.

  • Finrod

    Only a liberal automatically assumes that ‘I oppose this’ immediately implies ‘I support government action to stop this’.

  • Finrod

    .

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    We’re not here for you to have a debate club.

  • Finrod

    Let’s use the liberal’s vocabulary as a tool to beat them silly. This is supreme insensitivity on the part of Islam towards New York City and towards the United States.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • E Pluribus Unum

    That name sure sounds familiar. Isn’t he the Grand Kleagle of….

    Discover Simple, Private Sharing at Drop.io

    Yes, I thought so. Therefore we should kick his ass listen to everything he says.

  • smbn

    I agree well written post. Also disheartened as to how we could actually stop this. It seems impossible to deny the mosque on legal grounds without contending that Islam is a criminal religion.
    Is it a criminal religion? I really don’t know – I think that’s one of the bigger questions of the 21st century.

  • http://reaganiterepublicanresistance.blogspot.com/ reaganiterepublicanresistance

    I don?t want that freaking thing built there? there?s no need for it.

    You know, they call Geert Wilders and Islamophobe too? frankly, I?ve never heard a word out his mouth that wasn?t backed-up rock solid with supportive evidence. If he?s afraid, he builds a pretty solid case for why he should be? and 95% of it from The Koran and historical evidence

    In my mind, a hero to all of Western civilization- as Palin may someday be too, she?s sure stood up on this issue

  • dhoerster

    I don’t understand why you state that a convent outside Auschwitz would be morally unacceptable. Are you implying the Catholic Church was involved in the Holocaust?

  • mbee51

    If this mosque is ACTUALLY allowed to be built I think Americans should build a Christian Cathedral and a Jewish Synagogue, side by side, right where the towers stood and dedicate them to the victims of 9/11 as a memorial to the innocent souls murdered that day.

    It would also be America’s way of saying “NO…you did NOT conquer us”.

    How could anyone object? Isn’t the “mosque” supposed to be a “community center to promote understanding between all religions”?

    Doesn’t Obama want everyone to be tolerant of everyone else’s religion, culture?….Riiiiggghhhtt…..Actually, I think it would tighten a few jaws.

    But I think it would be just and a fitting tribute to those victims who were murdered because of religious (cultural) INTOLERANCE.

  • sccrenny

    unfettered, blind exercise of “rights”, I think I have a “right” to set up a stand right beside this “community center”and sell Kurans for kneeling pads so that Christians can exercise their right to kneel and pray anywhere. Facing away from the “community center”, shoes directed that way. I’m sure Joe Klein and his band of sorry Journolists will defend my rights just as heartily.

  • proudgop

    I understand what you are saying but those lands are NYC private lands ( the US gov’t does not have control over them). The city is best determined what happens to them.

  • ihateliberals

    to basically say that a Mosque at “Ground Zero” is morally insulting, irresponsible on the part of Islam and just downright wrong by all human sensibilities.

    Placing a Mosque there would be like the USA placing an A-Bomb advocacy display at “Ground Zero” in Hiroshima.

    It is just wrong and better not happen!

  • RedBeard
  • RedBeard

    …there is no equivalency, moral or historical, between Hiroshima and the WTC site.

  • tngal

    I remember your mayor getting on TV saying everything’s alright..come on back tourists.. what we really need is tourists to come back to NY. He asked for America’s money to get the economy going again. New York is practically a landmark unto itself. You can’t ask for donatins and help and tourists one month and then shun the desires of those people who helped the next. Because the next time something happens that help may not be forthcoming.

  • streiff

    see below

    History-minded readers will note that the final ?hypothetical? in this list is not actually hypothetical at all: there actually was an effort to establish a Catholic convent outside of the Auschwitz death camp from the late 1980s through the early 1990s. The parallels between this episode and that of the ?Ground Zero mosque? are striking ? and the differences are instructive. Roman Catholics per se were not the perpetrators of the Holocaust ? to put it mildly, if you truly understand the history of Nazism and the Catholic Church ? whereas Muslims acting in purported glorification of their faith were the perpetrators of 9/11; yet the late Pope John Paul II, in 1993, ordered the Auschwitz convent closed not because he felt Catholics were culpable for the Holocaust, but out of sensitivity to Jewish concerns. He understood that for Jews, this ground had been consecrated by the suffering of the victims of Auschwitz and rightly should be sacred to them and to their faith. This precedent was noted by ADL national director Abraham Foxman just last week, and indeed the ADL was involved in the controversy when it was current.

    But thanks for trying to add controversy. I know that making up your own story on what we posted is often a lot more exciting than bothering to read the post.

  • Dan McLaughlin

    to take apart the argument brick by brick.

  • scubadiver49er

    Interesting point regarding this is supposedly going to be built 2 blocks away from “Ground Zero”, but still covered by debris. It’s ALL “Hallowed Ground”!!! In a way, we were lucky that one or both of the towers didn’t collapse sideways, where the damage could have been even worse. Remember a decade before, muslim extremists set off underground bomb/bombs trying to collapse one or both of the WTC towers. Had THAT happened, the very site we are now talking about, could have been “Ground Zero” as well,

  • scubadiver49er

    Interesting point regarding this is supposedly going to be built 2 blocks away from “Ground Zero”, but still covered by debris. It’s ALL “Hallowed Ground”!!! In a way, we were lucky that one or both of the towers didn’t collapse sideways, where the damage could have been even worse. Remember a decade before, muslim extremists set off underground bomb/bombs trying to collapse one or both of the WTC towers. Had THAT happened, the very site we are now talking about, could have been “Ground Zero” as well,

  • minncon

    For those who aren’t from NYC, Mulberry St. is in the heart of Little Italy, longtime home to the Italian-Catholic community of New York.

    Let’s suppose all the approvals happen, building permits DO get drawn and construction is finally ready to begin…

    Maybe some of the construction crew will suddenly take “ill”… Maybe some key material deliveries get missed… Followed by a few mysterious construction “accidents”… Then maybe a work stoppage because of unfair labor practices… And finally, the night before the grand opening, a suspicious fire breaks out and burns the building to the ground.

    Such things do not happen in New York City, do they?

  • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

    Entertainers have long used street crews to post bulletins of upcoming shows, appearances and media releases. This involves twenty or so guys turning horizontal surfaces in a city into a bill board on behalf of that entertainer.

    We need to do the same thing for radical Islam near this mosque. With a twist, of course. Anytime a woman gets stoned for adultery, each time a person is tortured or raped IAW Sharia, every time terrorists strike, PLASTER pictures and descriptions of this incident near the mosque.

    Do not let anyone go near the place without walkng past at least fifty of these flyers.

  • drwallst

    Unfortunately, the problem lies less in convincing people not to build the mosque-which is feasible-and more in fighting the liberal ethos which makes “progressives” sympathetic to such insults.
    ………………………………………………………………………………………
    www.musingsofablogger.wordpress.com

  • apostlebill

    If you read the Koran, you will find that those referred to as “radical” are the devout. These are the ones who follow the dictates of the koran, (pardon the expression) religiously. A mosque at that site is a monument to a slaughter – nothing more. This is not a matter of freedom of religion. Muslims can pray pretty much anywhere and anytime they want. Where they can build a mosque, though, is a different matter. How many times have other churches been told where they can or cannot build a building? We have no moral or constitutional obligation to allow the building of this mosque.

  • ceili_dancer

    n/t

  • ceili_dancer

    How many injunctions could we muster to protect some insect or weed to prevent the building from even getting started. Some endangerred insects could “crawl” a long way.

  • ishkibish45

    ground zero is a shrine to the martyrs of 911 my question is could we build a christian church near a islamic shrine in an islamic country

  • apostlebill

    by doing so, you would be doing the Muslims a favor. They would rejoice at seeing the carnage perpetrated in the name of Allah. These people have no respect for human life. While the idea is sound, it wouldn’t have the desired effect on Muslims.

  • katstephens

    http://www.aclj.org/

    or compose letter to editor

  • bk

    Think about it….

    The Dems had this “help ill 9/11 responders” bill that could pass easily, but they felt it was more important that it fail than have any Republican amendments added. I thought it was a typical political ploy so they could gripe about evil Republicans wanting 9/11 victims to suffer and die, but the more I think about it…

    Could it be that the Democrats were terrified that the GOP would offer amendments to this bill to prevent the mosque, or at least express a stand against it? Given how they wanted to make the 9/11 responders a national issue while saying the 9/11 mosque was a local issue and given the timing of the two things, it makes me think that’s what was really behind that worthless wiener Weiner’s whining.

  • tara2009

    From all thar I have read there is 100 or more mosques in New York City,
    this seems to be more than the muslims need for their religion. This is like our pharmacy called ekerds, it had a pharmacy on every block,they went out of
    business for lack of customers, the cvs pharmacy bought their buildings and
    turned a lot of them over to non profits like the Goodwill. Ekerds built themselves into bankruptsy. Maybe the muslims will do the same thing. They will
    build so many mosques that will have no customers that they will build themselves into oblivion,then we can take over these buildings and house our
    homeless people. There is a limit to how much God will tolerate. God and Jesus
    is the answer to all the problems we face today . Have you asked God into your heart if not today is the day. May God bless each and everyone of you.
    mehpensacola,fl