« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

EDITOR OF REDSTATE

The 14th Amendment Canard

“Lindsey Graham …. just wants to save himself by looking like he is doing something without actually doing anything.

I have spent a lot of time on TV and radio this week talking about amending the 14th Amendment to deal with birthright citizenship. It is a non-issue, will not happen, and is unnecessary anyway to deal with the issue.

For starters, let’s remember that birthright citizenship was around long before the 14th Amendment. It came from the English Imperial days, starting around 1608 and the desire of the Empire for those born within the realm to be subjects of the Crown. The concept carried over to the United States.

The 14th Amendment enters the picture after the Civil War. It contains this language: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

Note the key part: “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”. From Wikipedia:

The author of the 14th Amendment Citizenship Clause, Senator Jacob M. Howard, stated, in reference to the Amendment, “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the family of ambassadors, or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.”

It seems most likely that the amendment was not nor does it necessitate granting birthright citizenship to the children of illegal aliens. Why then is Lindsey Graham bringing this up — particularly when the Democrats and media are using the idea of amending the 14th Amendment to beat up conservatives in an election year?

Well, the answer is pretty simple.

Lindsey Graham has never before been a big proponent of eradicating birthright citizenship. Why then go all in? Likewise, why demand amendment of the 14th Amendment when most conservative legal scholars are pretty convinced it is not necessary?

There are two reasons.

First, Graham has no objection to birthright citizenship, but he knows that many conservatives do. By making the case that the only way to fix birthright citizenship is to amend the 14th Amendment and knowing that this is a virtually impossible task, Graham can say, “Well, I tried. Can’t do it. Time to consider immigration reform with birthright citizenship remaining.”

By framing the argument as an impossible task, it makes it easier for Graham to dismiss than deal with it.

Second, Graham is in real political trouble in South Carolina. One county Republican Party has already rebuked him publicly. More are considering it. Graham has seen Bob Bennett go down in flames in the tea party movement and, even though he is safe until 2014, he has a reputation to maintain at some level.

The people of South Carolina opposed Graham’s last attempt at comprehensive immigration reform. Standing up and declaring the 14th Amendment needs to be repealed to end birthright citizenship is a great way for him to look like he is leading on a conservative stance while actually doing nothing.

In short — Lindsey Graham has no intention of amending the 14th Amendment. He just wants to save himself by looking like he is doing something without actually doing anything.

In doing so, he is also giving liberals extra ammo to attack conservatives as fringe, rally minority voters, and if the tea party candidates subsequently lose, so much the better for dear little Lindsey.

COMMENTS

  • AndrewHyman

    I agree 100% that it’s unnecessary to amend the 14th Amendment in order to end automatic birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants. A simple federal statute would do the job.

  • dajeeps

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark

    Quoted, notations omitted

    United States v Wong Kim Ark (1898)

    Facts
    Wong Kim Arkwas born in San Francisco, California sometime between 1868 and 1873. His father, Wong Si Ping and his mother, Wee Lee were immigrants from Taishan, China and were not United States citizens.
    In 1890 Wong’s parents returned to live in China. Later that year Wong himself traveled to China and, when he returned to the U.S., authorities granted him entry “upon the sole ground that he was a native-born citizen of the United States.” Four years later, however, the circumstances had changed, as Wong, who was employed in San Francisco as a cook, sailed to China on another temporary visit in 1894. When he returned to the U.S. in August 1895, he was detained at the Port of San Francisco by the Collector of Customs, who denied him permission to enter the country ? arguing that Wong, “although born in the city and county of San Francisco, state of California, United States of America, is not, under the laws of the state of California and of the United States, a citizen thereof, the mother and father of the said Wong Kim Ark being Chinese persons, and subjects of the emperor of China, and the said Wong Kim Ark being also a Chinese person and a subject of the Emperor of China.”

    Opinion
    In a 6-2 decision, the Court held that under the Fourteenth Amendment, a child born in the United States of parents of foreign descent who, at the time of the child’s birth are subjects of a foreign power but who have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States and are carrying on business in the United States, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under a foreign power, and are not members of foreign forces in hostile occupation of United States territory, becomes a citizen of the United States at the time of birth.

    Rationale
    The 14th Amendment’s citizenship clause, according to the court’s majority, had to be interpreted in light of English common law tradition that had excluded from citizenship at birth only two classes of people: (1 children born to foreign diplomats and ( 2 children born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of the country’s territory. The majority held that the “subject to the jurisdiction” phrase in the 14th Amendment specifically encompassed these conditions (plus a third condition, namely, that Indian tribes were not considered subject to U.S. jurisdiction) – and that since none of these conditions applied to Wong’s situation, Wong was a U.S. citizen, regardless of the fact that his parents were not U.S. citizens (and were, in fact, ineligible ever to become U.S. citizens because of the Chinese Exclusion Act). The opinion emphasized the fact that “…during all the time of their said residence in the United States, as domiciled residents therein, the said mother and father of said Wong Kim Ark were engaged in the prosecution of business, and were never engaged in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China”.
    Since Wong was a U.S. citizen from birth, the restrictions of the Chinese Exclusion Act did not apply to him. An act of Congress, the majority held, does not trump the Constitution; such a law “cannot control [the Constitution's] meaning, or impair its effect, but must be construed and executed in subordination to its provisions.”
    Chief Justice Melville Fuller, in a dissenting opinion joined by Justice John Harlan, argued that the history of U.S. citizenship law had broken with English common law tradition after independence?citing as an example the embracing in the U.S. of the right of expatriation (giving up of one’s native citizenship) and the rejection of the contrary British doctrine of perpetual allegiance. The minority argued that the principle of Jus sanguinis (that is, the concept of a child inheriting his or her father’s citizenship by descent regardless of birthplace) had been more pervasive in U.S. legal history since independence.
    Pointing to the language of the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which declared to be citizens “all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed”, and which was enacted into law only two months before the 14th Amendment was proposed by Congress, the minority argued that “it is not open to reasonable doubt that the words ‘subject to the jurisdiction thereof,’ in the amendment, were used as synonymous with the words ‘and not subject to any foreign power’ . . . .” They thus reasoned that the majority opinion exactly contradicted the original intended meaning of the 14th Amendment.
    In the view of the minority, excessive reliance on Jus soli (birthplace) as the principal determiner of citizenship would lead to an untenable state of affairs in which “…the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay or other race, were eligible to the presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not”.
    The dissenters acknowledged that other children of foreigners ? including freed slaves ? had, through the years, acquired U.S. citizenship through birth on U.S. soil. But they still saw a difference between those people and U.S.-born individuals of Chinese ancestry, because of strong cultural traditions discouraging Chinese immigrants from assimilating into mainstream American society, Chinese laws of the time which made acquiring a new citizenship or renouncing allegiance to the Chinese emperor a capital crime and the provisions of the Chinese Exclusion Act making Chinese immigrants already in the United States ineligible for citizenship.

  • Kudzu

    Is exactly what Senator Graham is doing, you nailed it here. His actions on the immigration/open borders frfont isn’t the only thing that’s gotten him in hot water with conservatives. His support for practically the entire Obama agenda under the guise of go along to get along. But what has he goten to show for it?

  • dajeeps

    It is directly responsible for the “anchor baby” thing. The case sited above is the first of a few that ripped apart the original meaning of “subject to the juristiction thereof”. Plyler v. Doe (1982) struck down a Texas law that attempted to deny children of illiegal immigrants public resources such as education.

    Regardless of where one stands on the issues, I think we can all agree that the constitution means what it says, and we shouldn’t need to keep putting amendmens in that say it means what it says. The 14th amendment is somewhat of that, as an echo of Article 4 Section 2 which says: “The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States” with the exception that it defined what citizenship means and was written to overrule Dred Scott.

  • flajim

    Any decision the court renders that is not in their enumerated powers can be overridden by Congress (Article III of the Constitution). The court has no specific powers granted to it in this situation and therefore, a federal statute would resolve the issue.

  • AndrewHyman

    The parents in the Wong Kim Ark case were legal residents of the United States, not illegal immigrants.

    That’s a huge difference.

  • marstep

    Lindsay Graham is easily defined by the title od a book written by Larry Klayman:

    WHORES: Why and How I Came to Fight the Establishment

  • GreyCloak

    Three fifths to pass most legislation is difficult. Two-Thirds to Amend the Constitution virtually impossible.

    Fortunately, our politicians LOVE this … they can “advocate” however much they wish, with NO expectations of results.

    I’ve read that the US is the only nation on earth to still grant “birthright” citizenship. I’m not sure if this is good or bad …. but politicians are happy to make this an issue, because “illegals” can’t vote (for the moment).

    I don’t know if my ancestor that got off a boat from Ireland in 1776 and joined the Continental Army was an “illegal.” My wife’s ancestors predate America by at least a 100 years … but her many-times great-uncle killed a former Secretary of the Treasury (an interesting Democrat side-show). Was that family illegal?

    British, Irish, Italian, Polish, Mexican … waves of immigrants,willing to do what Americans (the ones that came in previous generations) “don’t want to do.” Where’s the problem?

    My wife points out that a fellow named Paul was a Roman Citizen … but he was not born in Rome.

  • AndrewHyman

    There was no such thing as an illegal immigrant in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted. The U.S. only enacted immigration restrictions later on. For over a century, the consensus has been that some immigration is okay, but not unlimited immigration.

    If you want to throw open the border, and let everyone in who wants to come in, then this will very quickly become a very different country. We ought to help Mexico become a better place to live, instead of inviting everyone in Mexico to come here.

  • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

    …Congress could fix this easily, simply by clarifying the 14th’s real intent, and then, in the natural course of things, let SupCt revisit the whole issue. 112 years is a long time. I sure hope we don’t have to wait that long to fix Kelo, Roe, and others.

  • GreyCloak

    … for your detailed and well-supported statement.

    There are many paths to citizenship. Years ago, a roommate detailed his great-grandfather’s experience: brought to America to work on the Intercontinental Railroad, he was deported during the “Yellow Peril” years after the Golden Spike was hammered in.

    He came back to America years later with his family. They started a laundry service and later a restaurant. One descendant was on the US Olympic Team; all of his descendants love America.

  • partyof1

    considering his schedule was packed with cap-and-tax, amnesty, and voting for Kagan.

  • bk

    it’s the liberal “anchor baby” approach that leads to every blood relative being allowed to stay here illegally but without risk of deportation.

    It boils my blood to hear this “you can’t split up the family” nonsense, because the parents can avoid splitting up the family by taking the kid back home to Mexico with them. It’s the perfect type of “slippery slope” approach liberals love.
    - You can’t force the parents to leave.
    - Of course any brothers and sisters, regardless of age or nationality, must be allowed to stay.
    - If the parents are going to stay, then you must find it in your heart to let the grandparents stay.
    - And there’s such a tight cultural family bond that you must let the aunts and uncles stay.
    - The cousins of course must stay so they can remain with their parents.
    - And then there are the godparents. It would be unthinkable to force them to leave.
    - etc.

    That’s where the left has owned the narrative (with MSM help). Polling should be simple – there would be a HUGE difference between these two responses, showing that the 14th amendment isn’t the problem.
    1) Do you believe that babies born here should continue to be granted citizenship even if both parents are here illegally?
    a) Yes
    b) No
    2) Do you believe that parents and other family members of such “birthright citizens” should be allowed to remain in the US indefinitely, or should they be subject to the same deportation rules as anyone else?
    a) Let them all stay forever.
    b) Have them return home with their new baby.

  • atillathehun

    Sometimes Lindsay is just to uh Lindsay. His ablity to muddy waters is his only attribute and the last thing that Conservative thought should be about.
    The above case is the best reason for not using case law on Constitutional issues. The series of opinions written by leftist Justices have all but destroyed original intent and that was the intent.
    Roe V Wade,homosexual marraige and the ridiculous expansion of the commerce clause are all unconstitutional judicail fiat.

  • 13Bravo

    U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) with Elk v. Wilkins (1884) in which SCOTUS found that citizenship was not conferred on persons residing in the U.S. if said persons were subject to the jurisdiction of a different government (in the case of Elk v. Wilkins this was AmerIndian tribal jurisdiction). In other words it does not matter if you are physically in the U.S. if your legal status is as the citizen of another nation unless you are legally immigrating here.

    As AndrewHyman points out there is a difference between people here legally and people here illegally.

  • GreyCloak

    .. although the “Irish Regiments” of New York took heavy casualties in the Civil War … most were draftees.

    The consensus was that immigration should be limited “by the numbers:” so many from each “acceptable” country.

    It IS a different country: for instance, how many Irish names do you find amongst the police and fire departments (not to mention the Kennedy’s)? How many Italians in politics (from Cuomo to Pelosi)?

    Things change … demographics among them. This is not a bad thing, and should not result in demonizing any particular people.

    I am put in mind of an 1848 article in a predecessor to the New York Times (shortened by several epithets, and paraphrased): “The people of Harlem are lazy, unwilling to work, and breed like rabbits.” One might be offended that this applies to Spanish Harlem, or Black Harlem, but the truth is that it was written about Irish Harlem. a century and a half ago. … Nothing changes, but that it remains the same.

    Don’t trust politicians, or what their organizations would like you to believe.

    And yes, we might help Mexico … oh, we have: maquilladoras!

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    That and the Chinese Exclusionary Act are fairly relevant to this conversation. Particularly the parts where we required identity papers of every person of Chinese descent in America (Geary) and preemptively banned naturalization of resident Chinese (Exclusionary Act). In point of fact, Wong’s parents were not legal residents of the USA at the time of the case; they had repatriated to China. Even if they had stayed, they were banned by statute from becoming citizens. Ever.

    Note that US vs. Wong Ark Kim didn’t actually address any of that; it merely addressed whether Congress had the right to impose permanent resident alien status on a racial group living in the United States. The answer was ‘no:’ and I won’t pretend that I’m not relieved to hear it. Letting the legislature define somebody’s citizenship after the fact like this sticks in my craw.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    …as being relevant only in a very limited set of circumstances involving the peculiar (and explicitly Constitutional) relationship between Indian tribes and the federal government. You can read the full decision here.

  • merryj1

    An illegal alien is, by definition, engaged in unlawful behavior. Involving a minor in unlawful behavior amounts to “contributing to dependency” and Social Services remove minor children from parental custody for less. States that want to deter illegal entry for the “anchor baby” benefit could merely tweak existing grounds for termination of parental rights, set an effective date after which such infants are to be taken from parent(s), that the parent(s) will be deported and the infant(s) made available for permanent adoption.

    The remedy won’t need to be enforced once the deadline is made known — it will stop the influx of pregnant illegals into that state.

  • Locked and Loaded
  • Locked and Loaded
  • Locked and Loaded

    is not the fact that he wants to cover his rear with his constituency; it’s that he is perfectly willing to undermine the GOP platform, enable the Democrat party in their machinations, and ignore the rule of law and the will of the people.

  • Locked and Loaded

    is not the fact that he wants to cover his rear with his constituency; it’s that he is perfectly willing to undermine the GOP platform, enable the Democrat party in their machinations, and ignore the rule of law and the will of the people.

  • takemccain2

    back when Lindsey Grahamnesty first proposed it. I said then he wasn’t serious and was bringing the issue up specifically for political purposes only.

    He is a liar and a pretender, so don’t be fooled SC and don’t be fooled America.

    The best way to stop illegals entering our country is simple – ENFORCE THE DAMN LAWS THAT ALREADY EXIST!!!

    As for the matter of kids born here to illegals? Let them stay and deport their parents. When someone cries that ‘we’ shouldn’t be breaking up families, I will point out to them that ‘we’ are doing no such thing. The people responsible for families getting broken up and deported are the family members who chose to break the law. I don’t give to damn cents about their families. They are criminals and they are scum, pure and simple.

  • http://www.reddogreport.com reddogreport

    Take care of border security and suddenly the anchor baby problem all but disappears.

    What is interesting is the Harry Reid angle. He cannot understand how a Hispanic could support any member of the GOP due to their desire to change the 14th Amendment, yet Reid himself wrote a bill to do just that back in 1993.

    http://reddogreport.com/2010/08/i-am-not-saying-harry-reid-is-a-hypocrite-but/

  • http://www.twitter.com/RS_yoyo yoyo

    Lindsay has been rebuked TWICE, publicly, by separate county GOPs.

    Additionally, I believe, he has been rebuked by the Charleston Tea Party Committee numerous times.

    BTW, the two counties are Charleston County and Lexington County.

    Charleston County:
    http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2009/11/lindsey-graham-censured-by-sc-gop.html

    Lexington County:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/05/lindsay-graham-censured-b_n_411496.html

    This is one 7734uva Senator we have here, eh?

    As for the Tea Party censures – I would link that out too, but I refuse to send traffic over to Will Folks’ blog (but i will to HuffPo – go figure!) lol

    Thanks for all your hard work Erick. You and ColdWarrior are the two hardest working activists I have ever seen!

  • minncon

    … since we’re so big these days on turning to international law for guidance. I believe the answer is “no,” but I could be wrong.

  • minncon

    Physician, heal thyself!

  • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

    and as his brow furrows in concentration, and the brain storm intensifies to the volume of a light drizzle he produces the following.

    “The Constitution. A fine old ship she was!”

  • mkozikowski

    every time!
    The SCOTUS has been, for at least the last 100 years, liberalizing and moving to the left our Constitution. This is not the first and, based on recent choices, will not be the last case of moving left.
    It is however, the exact reason America should have paid more attention to the acceptance of Kagen and Meyor to the court.

    We need more Conversationalists on the court to protect our country from complete internal collapse.

  • http://www.colinwitt.com/ cmw

    (1) It’s not true that these children have “no place to go” nor should we say “we can’t punish them for what their parents did.” The Mexican Constitution says they are Mexican citizens at the moment of birth. It’s kind of arrogance on our part to say that being a Mexican citizen is a punishment, and because we feel so bad we have to give them US citizenship too. When a baby is born to Mexican citizens here, hospitals should contact their consulate so they can document the baby as a Mexican citizen, and the baby should be conferred whatever residency rights that he mother has. If that is “no residency rights” then they should go to Mexico when they are medically able to leave the hospital.
    (2) When describing citizens eligible to vote in Section 2 of the 14th Amd, the text specifically excludes “Indians not taxed.” I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume this language also carries some of the same intent as the “subject to the jurisdiction” language in Section 1. Indians weren’t citizens because our relationship with their nation was governed by treaty (much as our relationship with other countries is today) and they were not subject to our jurisdiction because they didn’t pay federal taxes (as illegals don’t today). If illegals were really subject to the jurisdiction of the US, they would be paying taxes like the rest of us.
    (3) Section 5 of the 14th Amd specifically authorized Congress to implement the elements of the other 4 sections with appropriate legislation. The amendment specifically says Congress can apply it as they see fit. How can the SCOTUS substitute its will for that of the Congress when Section 5 expressly grants to Congress the right to pass legislation in light of the 14th?

  • ywhyvon1

    This is the whole point I was looking for:)

  • bs61

    Russell Pearce is working on a law that says if born here in AZ to illegals, then you are not a citizen – he said the constitution leaves it up to states jurisdiction. He is doing it because we are broke, and so it will be addressed by the Supreme Court eventually.

    So Graham will have to deal with it eventually!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    excerpt:

    who have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States and are carrying on business in the United States

    Permanent
    domicile
    carrying on business

    It has been congress but mostly just executive action and interpretation and policy that has EXPANDED the definition of a citizen. Congress has the right to do that, but are not compelled to by the 14th.

    Bur clearly, the 14th was not well-written. That is a fact, and even the framer’s statement is vague, although it certainly does not refer to English Common law re citizenship.

    One cannot believe that the framers meant to leave it up to ALIENS her illegally to decide if their children would be citizens.

    ALL people on US soil are subject to the legal jurisdictions they occupy of they commit a crime, tort or breach a contract, but that is not what “subject to the jurisdiction” phrase is referring to.

    The USA decides to whom it confers jurisdiction, not aliens on their own whim.

  • renny

    as one in 12 newborns are babies of illegals (WSJ).

    Unless you want to push 1 for Spanish and 2 for English, then something has to be done about re-interpreting the 14th Amend.

  • AndrewHyman

    Moe, the parents in Wong Kim Ark were legal residents at the time the child was born. Period. Therefore the case is not conclusive as to birthright citizenship of a person born to illegal immigrants.

    I don’t dispute that there was grave discrimination against Chneze immigrants in the U.S. which was shameful. But that’s no reason to take one position or another today about whether the US should have any immigration laws, or whether those laws should be enforced.

  • renny

    Andrew Bercher immigrated from Kadleburg, Germany, to the US, and settled in Illinois, in 1857. Five years later (1862), he became a citizen when he made application in Chicago, and two neighbors swore he was an upstanding person. He immediately joined the Union Army in an IL militia and died at Mursfreeboro, TN. Both the State Department and Abraham Lincoln wrote to his family on his death.

    He’s my son’s Great-great-great-great uncle .

  • AndrewHyman

    Chinese

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    NT

  • JSobieski

    nt

  • bwakefield

    First, Everyone should know Lindsey is a loud mouth, me first, progressive. A left wing dummycrat made up to look like a Republican.

    Second, please read everything you can on amending the Constitution. It is my understanding that once a Constitutional Congress is convened the agenda is open and anything can be amended. Otherwise, everything is on the table. Is this what we really want? We may wish to eliminate anchor babies, but once convened anything the convention wants to alter is up for grabs.
    there has to be a better way.
    Bruce

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    They are exporting the revolution they fear…to us.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • dambama

    It is inconceivable that you South Carolinians continue to send this cow-pie to Washington, especially taking up a Republican seat.

    I’m from Nevada and I apologize for Harry Reid. But at least he has a “D” after his name, we know what he is.

    The despicable Lindsey Graham is worse than Harry Reid because he is a liar and a coward who does not deserve an “R” after his worthless putrid name.

  • Richard Mullins

    so I don’t think that a fence is going to help much. Mexico as a government has been corrupt in the way it handles things. I’m more convinced that we should send them back and if they want to become citizens, we’ll help at the consulate level.

  • dambama

    It would not be safe to even consider such a thing until we have eliminated the progressive agenda, and the progressives too.

  • AndrewHyman

    It’s worth noting that illegal immigrants have no domicile in the United States. Anyway, if SCOTUS were to clearly address a case today about birthright citizenship of children of illegal immigrants, they might well say that it all depends upon whether Congress subjects illegal migrants to the same kind of treatment as foreign diplomats. That’s why I think a constitutional statute ending birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants might have to align their treatment with that of foreign diplomats.

  • acat

    It’s called “revolution”.

    Mew

  • acat

    Have you read any of the posts around this site that detail just how much money we’re spending to provide health care, social security benefits, educations, housing, etc. to illegals?

    This is U.S.-first.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Worse than Reid?

    Dems sh*t more than 100 Grahams. All sh*t stinks. The Dems are the pile of Sh*t where graham dung is taken.

    No, Reid is worse than Graham.

    What is bad is bad and Dems make more bad. Its not “less bad” when it comes from a Dem..

  • AndrewHyman

    As long as there are jobs on this side of the border, people will find a way to get across. And as long as there’s a brighter future for children on this side of the border, people will seek it out. Those are just facts of life, and you or I would figure out how to get across the border too, under those circumstances.

  • acat

    All that’s needed for your jobs point is for e-verify use to be mandatory for all hiring, and all rentals, and for purchases of real estate.

    That dries up the jobs, and as Arizona has shown (at least, the parts of Arizona where it’s been tried… not Phoenix) the illegal problem relocates on its’ own.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    for us to remain America if the whole world can move here. Its also hard to send 20 million back.

    Build fence.

    One thing we know is that Mexico will never get fixed if they keep exporting the disgruntled to AZ etc.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the SCOTUS would have to rule. And I like your idea.

  • caboose

    constitution is absolutely essential. Judges amend the constitution routinley, without a peek out of those who knee jerk an opposition to any proposed amendment that is legal under the constitution. The quick response to suggested amendments to the constitution is, “We don’t want to do that to our constitution,” despite that is exactly what the constitution intended. Let’s amend the constitution to get rid of these anchor illegals and abortion to begin with and follow up with any changes we need. We don’t need Judges doing it illegal and then people complaining that they are activist, Wake the Hell Up!!!!!!!!!!!1

  • Adjoran

    The mammoth ego keeps threatening to make him burst wide open, but so far it hasn’t happened.

    He’s aggravating by design, picking out a few high-profile issues upon which to show his “independence” and “bipartisanship? for the Beltway media and hangers-on.

    But he has a lifetime ACU rating of 89, so those calling him a RINO are just showing their own ignorance.

    Now, if you want to beat him in 2014, great. So do I. But there is this big fat problem: WHO are you going to have to run against him? With his national fund-raising operation, Graham keeps primary opposition on the sidelines. It would take AT LEAST $1 million for a credible primary challenge, perhaps $2 mil. Donors aren’t going to put up that kind of money for a Don Quixote crusade, there must be a candidate with a reasonable chance to win.

    So, again I must ask, “WHO?”

    Once that is answered and $1 million raised, then we can have a conversation on the subject. Until then, talk of beating Graham in 2014 is just a bunch of fools flapping their gums.

  • hwood007

    and I offer this as to why the 14th does not apply but have we not already made it law when it should not be?

    Jurisdiction is the right to speak for others under the law. It is mentioned in our Constitution in the 14th Amendment. The 14th states all persons born or naturalized in the United States who are also subject to US jurisdiction, are citizens of the USA.

    Us citizens are under the jurisdiction of the laws of America. The fact a person is in America under illegal means puts them outside US jurisdiction in the beginning and illegals do everything possible to remain outside US jurisdiction.

    Illegals do not register for the US draft, thus staying outside US jurisdiction. Illegals do not register their small business with state agencies and thus operate outside the laws. Illegals want to remain outside US laws. Many do not pay state taxes, license fees, or social security on them selves or other workers. Illegals are so concerned about being located, they do anything they can to remain under government radar. Illegals by their own actions are placing themselves outside US jurisdiction. They do not want to be under US jurisdiction but then want to collect US benefits reserved for legal residents.

    Illegals remain outside US jurisdiction by choice, they do this at their own volition so it is their choice to be outside our jurisdiction. It appears illegals declare themselves outside US jurisdiction and the 14th amendment so why should it apply to them or their children? I suggest that they can not have it both ways.
    So how do we stop the illegal birthright?

  • K.

    Elk has absolutely no bearing on this question. It is about an Indian who wanted American citizenship and was born in an Indian tribe that was on US territory. It was decided against him precisely because Indian tribes were not considered under US jurisdiction.

  • hwood007

    to change the constitution. 75% of states pass a request for a convention then 66% of those present can pass an amendment that becomes law. If I remember the law correctly, this does not require congress.

  • chuckl

    It seems that “dajeeps” has missed the one critical point of this argument.

    Wong Kim Ark’s parents were legally in the United States.

    They were NOT CRIMINAL INVADERS.

  • K.

    Almost every country in this hemisphere, actually.

  • hwood007

    jurisdiction as much as possible and offer the below;

    The 14th states all persons born or naturalized in the United States who are also subject to US jurisdiction, are citizens of the USA.

    Us citizens are under the jurisdiction of the laws of America. The fact a person is in America under illegal means puts them outside US jurisdiction in the beginning and illegals do everything possible to remain outside US jurisdiction.

    Illegals do not register for the US draft, thus staying outside US jurisdiction. Illegals do not register their small business with state agencies and thus operate outside the laws. Illegals want to remain outside US laws. Many do not pay state taxes, license fees, or social security on them selves or other workers. Illegals are so concerned about being located, they do anything they can to remain under government radar. Illegals by their own actions are placing themselves outside US jurisdiction. They do not want to be under US jurisdiction but then want to collect US benefits reserved for legal residents.

    Illegals remain outside US jurisdiction by choice, they do this at their own volition so it is their choice to be outside our jurisdiction. It appears illegals declare themselves outside US jurisdiction and the 14th amendment so why should it apply to them or their children? I suggest that they can not have it both ways.

  • lightfootletters

    July 11, 2010

    Senator Kyl
    2200 East Camelback, Suite 120
    Phoenix, Arizona 85016-3455
    Phone: (602) 840-1891
    Fax: (602) 957-6838

    Dear Sir,

    It should be obvious that a tourist or worker from Korea or Mexico is not under the jurisdiction of the United States. They would be under the jurisdiction of Korea or Mexico as a citizen of each state. To be under the jurisdiction of the United States, a foreign national must sign away those rights to their home jurisdiction as a permanent resident of their new state.

    The author of the 14th Amendment, Senator Jacob M. Howard, stated, in reference to the Amendment, “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the family of ambassadors, or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.”

    In the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), Although any language in Wong Kim Ark that suggests the Court’s opinion and rationale could be expanded to include the children of illegal immigrants would be mere dicta as Wong’s parents were in the country legally.

    The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the 14th Amendment

    You do not need to repeal the 14th Amend. You need to enforce the requirements of the 14th Amend. regarding citizenship. Then we can decide if we need new laws or change the US Constitution. This means all persons not covered by the Reagan Amnesty Legislation are not citizens and neither are their children. Why is this so difficult for members of Congress or the President to understand.

    Lightfoot Letters

    ps: If you strongly believe that children of illegal aliens or tourist are citizens file a cause of action to stop them from voting. If the Su. Ct. rules in their favor…then consider changing the Constitution.

  • K.

    The modern usage of the word “domicile” does mean legal residency. But I am not at all sure that is what it meant in 1898 when used in Wong. The meaning is especially suspect because Wong cites other cases using the word from before illegal immigration laws existed. Those other cases certainly attached it no such meaning.

  • Lloyd Davis

    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile–hoping it will eat him last-
    -Winston Churchill

  • K.

    Hold on a second. Let’s restate the quote from Jacob M. Howard, the author of the 14th amendment, without the italics.

    ?This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the family of ambassadors, or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.?

    I think that is actually support for the view that changing birthright citizenship would require a constitutional amendment, not support for the view that we can use legislation. Howard is saying that everyone but the children of foreign ambassadors born on US soil are citizens.

    Sorry, but I have seen nothing and nada that supports the view that we can abolish birthright citizenship with mere legislation. I wish it were otherwise, but the Constitution must be respected.

  • acat

    Compare and contrast the state of Mexico and the state of the urban center of any major U.S. city.

    Anyone who wants a way out, in both cases, can make one through their sweat, blood, and a little sympatico.

    Those who come across the border and work, with the intention of not going back, can be successful – regardless of whether we’re talking about coming from Mexico or Detroit.

    Interesting, isn’t it?

    Mew

  • beaj

    When a country wants to take over a country has itis people come here illegal
    and have a baby on this soil and becomes a citizen at birth so the can stay in the country tand work to distroy the country and not learn the languish.while they work toward making the country thier ‘s the people that was born and raised in the country for generations.can not stop the influx.just give them that want to take it over have it given free and clear.with out a fight. Thats what is happening in America today. GREAT GOING EDUCATED AMERICANS KEEP YOU HEAD IN THE SAND. MAY GODS BLESSING BE WITH YOU ALL AS YOU GO DOWN

  • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

    First, Lindsay Graham is 100% WRONG on this issue:

    #1. We do not need to amend the Constitution to fix this problem. You have laid it out correctly. The 14th amendment never stated birthright citizenship in all cases, its “under the jurisdiction” and the Congress can set via legislation the enabling of that. A Congressional Act that explicitly defines the rules for citizenship at birth would pass constitutional muster, if it covers all permanent residents and children thereof. Congress could state that those entering on tourist visas and those who are here illegally and residing here for less than (10 years?) are not ‘under the jurisdiction. Congress could allow for applications for birth citizenship in cases where the baby would have NO OTHER natural form of citizenship via bloodline. Hoever, in 99% of cases they would be citizens of the nation of their parents.

    #2. If by any chance the Supreme Court rules otherwise, we will be stuck, and probably should not go about bothering with a Constitutional Amendment. Perhaps someone can push it, but add it to the pile of never-succeeding amendments, like BBA, term limits, flag burining, marriage amendment, and a long list of amendments that never make it through the obstacle course of Federal Amendment.

    #3 But let me add another BAD aspect of bringing the 14th A up now … right after a judge used te 14th to justify gay marriage, we have the progressives going on now about how conservatives dont like the 14th amendment… or want to ‘repeal it’. The implication being the progs are on the side of 14th and conservative against it. Meaning – presto- liberals are ‘pro-Constitution’…. Absurd! It’s another way for the left to distort reality and put conservatives ‘against the Constitution’.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    …you won’t have a problem with their kids born here having automatic citizenship.

    Good to know.

    Moe Lane

  • K.

    Whatever your feelings on who exactly should be a citizen, the polling being cited in the national press right now is just misleading. Look at this question:

    “As you may know, the Constitution says that all children born in the United States are automatically U.S. citizens regardless of their parents’ status. Would you favor or oppose a Constitutional amendment to prevent children born here from becoming U.S. citizens unless their parents are also U.S. citizens?”

    http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

    The problem is that nobody is proposing this. About the nearest proposal is Harry Reid’s in 1993 that would require the mother to be a permament resident. But even that one wouldn’t require both parents to be permanent legal residents, let alone citizens. The current Birthright Citizenship Act just requires one parent, mother or father, to be a legal permanent resident or member of the military.

    As you may know, under our constitution and current laws, all children born in the United States are automatically granted citizenship. Do you think we should continue to grant citizenship to all children born in the U.S. or do you think this should be changed so children of illegal immigrants are not automatically granted citizenship?

    http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_Politics/___Politics_Today_Stories_Teases/NMT_final.pdf

    This doesn’t distinguish between the children of two illegal aliens and the children of an illegal alien and a legal resident.

    This one was cited on the front page of USA Today a few days ago:

    ASK ALL:
    Q.60 Would you favor changing the Constitution so that the parents must be legal residents of the U.S. in order for their newborn child to be a citizen, or should the Constitution be left as it is?
    Jun 16-20 2010 March 2006
    41 Favor changing Constitution 42
    56 Leave Constitution as is 54
    4 Don’t know/Refused (VOL.) 4

    http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/627.pdf

    Rasmussen did do a poll a few months ago where they found 58% against birthright citizenship. But that is probably attributable to question wording:

    4* Suppose a woman enters the United States as an illegal alien and gives birth to a child in the United States. Should that child automatically become a citizen of the United States?

    33% Yes
    58% No
    9% Not sure

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/toplines/pt_survey_toplines/june_2010/toplines_immigration_june_1_2_2010

    There don’t seem to be any polls that talk about the proposals most people are floating. So it’s very hard to judge what people’s actual opinions are.

  • aesthete

    All this time, I thought that they used those cool things called guns, fighter jets, and military tactics to take over another country.

  • aesthete

    Meant to reply to someone else with a different header; pay this post no mind.

  • aesthete

    N Korea’s done a great job of keeping its populace in: besides the lucky few who escape into China, immigration to and from the country is virtually nil. Ditto Cuba: besides the lucky ones who end up on Florida’s coast, the island’s closed off to immigration. Jewish people in Europe, prior to the establishment of Israel, were virtually disenfranchised. Why, then, has there been no positive change or revolution in those countries? Would one say that without immigration to the US and other places, European Jewry had a chance in hell of reforming the polities in which they lived?

    Truth is, places that have ingrained autocracies or kleptocracies aren’t going to change at the drop of a hat, even if the general sentiment was for change: they’re the ones with the guns and the power. Moreover, the vast majority of revolutions in the third world have usually taken the country from bad to worse. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall one within recent history which has led to positive changes for its people. Mexico and Central America’s own history with revolution provides ample proof of this maxim. Why must we doom immigrants to this country to living in hells not of their own making, until they accomplish the Sisyphean task of transforming their countries into Jeffersonian democracies? Not only is it pointless, it is also counterproductive: since such a revolution would likely manifest itself in anti-American terms and economic backwardness (probably through some form of socialism), we would have to be on the lookout for a hostile neighbor sharing a large border with us.

  • mom2oneson

    Anchor babies are citizens but
    they can’t petition immigration for a relative’s residency here until they are an adult AND earn a certain % over the poverty line. Why do we look the other way if they have an anchor baby and do everything we can to give them benefits? It defeats the whole purpose of requiring an income level for immigration petitions – it’s designed to make sure the relative coming in does not become a public burden.

    MANY times hospitals help the mother sign up for medicaid for the child or whatever it’s called in that state. Make it mandatory that they report a mother that is suspected to be illegal. They have to report any other criminal suspect why should this be different? Make it a requirement that parents show citizenship or residence for the child to be eligible for medicaid.

    In FL the SCHIP program (KIDCARE) has on the application that no info will be shared the immigration. So we are bending overbackwards to HIDE criminal activity??? This is ridiculous why are looking the other way? Make SCHIP benefits the same as medicaid – the parent or legal guardian has to show citizenship or legal residency.

    The citizen children are entitled to SNAP benefits. Each state should stop allowing household exceptions for food stamps. If the parent or LEGAL guardian does not qualify, the children don’t either.

    School disctricts love enrollment of illegal alien children because each seat is more funding for them.

    Require proof of citizenship or residency information of the parents or guardians for school disctrict enrollment. Definately require it for ALL children that are enrolled. Many times these families have children that were not born here.
    There are lots of things we could just with entitlements.

  • aesthete

  • http://xmmlbchat.blogspot.com katesmith

    A few days ago there was an article in USA Today saying Dick Armey proposes abolishing Social Security. Aside from the merits of Graham’s or Armey’s ideas, each was brought up at a time to do maximum damage to non-Ruling Class right of center Americans.

  • tacoslayer

    social security benefits, or section 8 housing vouchers…..or nearly any other benefit available to citizens.

    I don’t like illegal immigration any more than you….but let’s stick to the facts.
    They are bad enough.

  • hwood007

    I lived in south korea, North korea is an island, surrounded by guns. China will not allow anyone to cross without sending them back or putting them in jail, never to be seen again.

    Those China sends back, go to jail in north korea, never to be seen again. Those who try to go south over the DMZ are shot, never to be heard from again. Food is in short supply and I can not be sure, but think N.korea is going to waste food on just anybody. Big fish and gun boats in the water
    take care of those who allempt to swim.

    The north use to send squads of gunmen to kill leaders in the south. They were told the citizens of the south would help them and they did, they called the cops everytime they saw one of the thugs. It was rather funny, there is no way the people in the south are going to help anyone from the north shoot a leader or anyone else.

    the best plan for the north would be to declare war at 0600 and at 1200 surender to the south without having fired a shot. The south and the US would then rebuild the counrty mcch like east germany, where I also lived for a while. The Glienicke bridge was right at my back door.

  • Bill S

    Ok.

    Hmm.

    That there goes in the “Redstate Unintelligible Posting Hall o’ Fame”

  • AndrewHyman

    If Congress adopts a guest worker program that invites pregnant women to stay here in the U.S. for birth and neonatal care, then of course the child born here will be constitutionally entitled to birthright citizenship. Whether Congress should do that is kind of tangential to this thread.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    I don’t want a guest worker program in the first place, but since the folks so determined to warp what was a straightforward court decision about a straightforward Constitutional amendment want to legitimize the closest 19th century equivalent of one, the least that you can do is own the consequences.

    :holding up hand: Do yourself a favor and take my broad hint to read up on the Chinese Exclusionary and Geary Acts, because I’m tired of arguing with people who haven’t read them.

  • K.

    I completely agree with Erick about Graham playing this up for political gain. My guess is that birthright citizenship is simply not possible without a constitutional amendment. I do think it is a worthy goal that could ease a lot of friction in the immigration debate and make guest worker programs more palatable, as Cato Institute scholar Will Wilkinson says. (This guy just a wrote a great column on the subject. Read it!)

    http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2010/08/09/liberalism-and-birthright-citizenship/

    But there is another more doable idea in the short run on which most conservatives ought to be able to agree. This is a national Proposition 187. In case you didn’t know, California passed Proposition 187 in 1994 in an attempt to end all government services to illegal aliens. If it had held up, illegal aliens would have been stopped from filching funds from Medicaid and other state funded health programs. They would have been stopped from slurping up state social services. And they would no longer have been able to send their foreign-born children to American schools on a public dime that could have benefited American kids. In one step, the worst problem with illegal immigration would have been taken care of, without having to messily deport a single person. Unfortunately, the courts invalidated this bid for a common-sense idea on the grounds that only Congress can regulate immigration.

    So be it. Let’s make ‘em do their duty!

  • sarg01

    We just need to make sure our new citizen is properly cared for. Child Protective Services should of course ensure the parents have a home address on file and at least one guardian has a stable, registered employment address or can otherwise support the family.

    After all, this is nothing they don’t already do for citizens, so it’s hardly discrimination. Plenty of US citizen parents have lost their children for failure to provide a safe and stable home.

    The key thing this provides is putting the parents address and employer on the grid. I have a lot less of a problem with illegal immigration when I know they and their employers are paying taxes on them like everyone else.

  • AndrewHyman

    I don’t think it’s unfair (or not straightforward) to point out that the case you cite did not involve a child born to illegal immigrants. That’s the core of this whole debate, and not a trivial distinction at all.

    Likewise, it’s not “warping” the 14th Amendment when people point out that it contains an exception for people who are not “subject to the jurisdiction of the United States”. Everyone agrees that that exception applies to children of diplomats, as well as children of invading armies, and the like. It’s a legitimate question whether Congress can apply it to the children of illegal immigrants.

    There are many law-abiding people throughout the world who would like to come to the U.S. but don’t, because they ate law-abiding. So they have children in their countries who obviously have no US birthright citizenship. It’s grossly unfair to them if children of illegal immigrants het what they cannot get due to the law-abiding character of their parents.

    Moreover, there’s nothing very cruel about thinking that children of illegals should have the same citizenship ad their patents( after all, that’s what would have happened if the patents had obeyed the law.

    As for the Geary Acts, I’ve already acknowledged that Congress had some horribly racist immigration policies in the 19th century. I’m not a racist, and I favor lots of legal immigration from Mexico. I don’t know why you think the Geary Acts are critical to the discussion of birthright citizenship. You haven’t explained that, Moe. So, please feel free to explain it, or feel free to carry through on your suggestion of ending this conversation.

  • AndrewHyman

    Sorry about the bad spelling. I’m on an iPhone.

    “ate law-abiding” >> “are law-abiding”

    “het what” >> “get what”

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    Seriously, you’re on the verge of being banned from any discussion on US v Wong Kim Ark until you can demonstrate to my satisfaction that you have even a high school level understanding of the details of the case.

  • AndrewHyman

    You’re actually threatening to ban me because I accidentally put an “s” at the end of “Geary Acts”? I told you that I’m on an iPhone and having trouble spelling on this timy thing.

    I assure you that I have read every single word of Wong Lim Ark. I have no idea why you suspect otherwiser

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    You are not in control of this conversation, and you may not redefine it to suit yourself.

  • AndrewHyman

    I don’t think I tried to “control” any conversation, and I don’t know what you think I did “twice”. Maybe you’re referring to the fact that I misspelled “Wong Kim Ark” as “Wong Lim Ark”? My apologies.

    I am bowing out if this conversation now, because it seems unproductive. Cheers, Moe. I’ve tried to be respectful and polite toward you.

  • aesthete

    They do a “great job” if you consider locking their citizens like sardines in their country (and treating them with less dignity than aforementioned sardines) “great”. The vast majority of N Koreans live and die without stepping foot on foreign soil, and that’s just the way “great leader” Kim wants it.

  • janis

    Although he might be better of having the Tagalog speak for HIM instead. And I’m not believing that this case is all due to typing on an IPhone either.

  • acat

    My answer to it is that the only weapon a person has is between the ears and behind the eyes. (this is also, the only privacy a person has)

    Everything else is just a tool.

    And no, there are some (unusual) historical precedents for countries being taken over without a shot being fired – by economic means, by a minority becoming a majority by having higher birth rates, etc.

    The norm, though, is violence. Alas. What a waste.

    Mew

  • gekster

    I’m betting ninth or tenth grade.
    He found the caps lock

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I favor a fence
    I favor liberal semi-amnesty after that for those already here
    I am liberal on legal immigration
    But we must control the RATE of immigration and the substance

    i understand the odds against a good Mexican revolution
    but that doesn’t make me for open borders
    Whether Mexico improves is desirable, but protecting what America is trumps that

    A fence is essential no matter our policy overall.

    more later if desired

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • cactusjack

    studied the reunification of E and W Germany in 1989 and deduced that the way it happened, with sudden implosion of the East and sudden swarming of the West, actually effected economic setback to the West and the whole country. If one can try to phase it in, or manage it, it is much less a shock to the system. Implosion in N Korea would be 4 or 5x worse, the S Koreans figure. Millions of hungry N Koreans just suddenly show up one day with no skills, no anything. Feed us. Clothe us. House us. So the S Korean Sunshine policy is not just Unicorns and Fairy Dust, it is a hope for very slow controlled dampening of the inevitable North Korean collapse. And the DMZ is part of that economic plan, think of it as a dam holding back a killer flood of humanity, not just a military obstacle

  • AndrewHyman

    Here’s a list that may be helpful (I found it via Wikipedia).

    http://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/issues/birthright-citizenship/nations-granting-birthright-citizenship.html

  • K.

    But it’s not clear why it would have to be. There was no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants at the time of the amendment. One cannot invent a new category of immigrant after the fact and suddenly claim that a general, sweeping directive does not apply to that category. Any category you create after the amendment is irrelevant to the meaning of the amendment, obviously. Either the drafters meant to exclude “foreigners” in some more general sense than strictly illegal immigrants or else they only wanted to exclude the children of diplomats and foreign armies. Far from proving the former, I think the Howard quote above supports the latter conclusion.

  • K.

    But it’s not clear why it would have to be. There was no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants at the time of the amendment. One cannot invent a new category of immigrant after the fact and suddenly claim that a general, sweeping directive does not apply to that category. Any category you create after the amendment is irrelevant to the meaning of the amendment, obviously. Either the drafters meant to exclude “foreigners” in some more general sense than strictly illegal immigrants or else they only wanted to exclude the children of diplomats and foreign armies. Far from proving the former, I think the Howard quote above supports the latter conclusion.

  • cactusjack

    to know about Mexico in anyof these discussions: 1) I have on good sources from when I worked near the border, the entire Mexican economy functions, to the extent it does, on oil. It is figured to run on $70/bbl world market price for oil. At that, or above that, the government kind of works and the bulk of Mexico stays home. Below that for long, and the country will get up and move…north if it can. The latter would make our current immigration problem at the border look like a small side show 2) as mentioned already, Mexico is prone to revolutions and is probably overdue now. Though the culture is wonderful, Mexico likes its ideologies radical and the people are not real sophisticated – let’s kill all the Castillans and take their land (Villa, 1917) or let’snationalize the oil foreign oil companies (Cardenas 1947) get pretty wide latitude of support when run before the masses.

  • cactusjack

    the people are not real sophisticated *politically*. Like ours are getting to be not very savvy or discerning as evidenced by the Pres 2008 election.

  • K.

    That is not at all clear. Most supporters of ending birthright citizenship, as far as I am aware, want to simply expel most or all of the illegal immigrants no matter the economic cost. *Grin*

    I’m in the minority in joining the guys at Cato in advocating a guest worker program. That combined with ending birthright citizenship for non-permanent residents could help place us in a similar situation to many European countries in their common market. So it could actually end up bringing us closer together. There’s a link to a related column by Will Wilkinson down thread that I’d invite everyone to read.

  • acat

    Control of territory and access to territory is one aspect of a nation.

    Pakistan, for instance, claims the “tribal areas”, but obviously doesn’t control who can cross the border there. It’s effectively a separate nation.

    If we’re going to claim Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and California, then we’d better be prepared to control access to non-citizens.

    I favor a fence.

    While it’s going up, I favor rolling out an e-verify program for the whole country. Everyone buying a car or house, renting an apartment, or applying for (or currently holding) a job gets e-verified. To incentivize this, let the States figure out what to fine employers who get caught with employees they can’t e-verify.

    I don’t object to an amnesty for those who are already here provided it shatters the chains the Dems have put around the ankles and necks of the (currently) illegals. They need to be brought into the sunshine with the rest of us, and politically that’s going to be a hard fight.

    A “new Mexican revolution” (remember that the PRI, which ran Mexico for 70 years, translates as the Institutional Revolutionary Party) will be a mess, mostly because there hasn’t been an effective challenge to the corruption in so long, so the corrupt have all the guns….

    Mew

  • acat

    I’ll clue you in. In districts under strong Democrat control, those restrictions are not enforced.

    Laws are not self-enforcing, someone has to check whether people are playing by the rules – and if the watchers are Dems and see a way to increase the number of voters, they’ll take it.

    Yeah, that’s right tacoslayer. Illegals vote too.

    Mew

  • AndrewHyman

    I belatedly realize that you probably meant that I wrote “Geary Acts” twice. I did do that. It’s difficult to scroll up and down with an iPhone. You had correctly used the phrase “Geary Acts” above (when you wrote “Rxclusionary and Heary Acts) and I mistakenly mimicked that spelling, without double-checking. I really think this is trivial though. Including the letter “s” a couple times by mistake doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, or grounds to prove I’m ignorant or dishonest or controlling, et cetera. It wouldn’t have happened if ai was working on a desktop computer.

    I read Wong Kim Ark from stem to stern earlier this year. I have not read the Geary Act, and I don’t see why I should, since you didn’t point to anything in the Geary Act that shows Wong Kim Ark applies to immigrants who have no legal residence in the U.S.

    It’s admirable that you have strong opinions about this subject, and that you don’t care how popular those views are. But I don’t think that is any justification for questioning my honesty based on something so trivial as using the letter “s” twice. At risk of being banned, I’d like to say that I am an honest person, and I resent having that questioned

    Anyway, again, I’m sorry about the trivial misspellings of “Acts”.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    I can repeat it again in a differently-pitched voice if that will help.

  • AndrewHyman

    Is this the appropriate place to ask HOW you think I’m controlling the conversation?

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    Did that help?

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    [nt]

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • bilsing

    Lindsey Graham will do anything to stay in Washington. Every time I contact him about issues I get a condescending letter back from him. He thinks folks in SC are not smart enough to understand what he, the genius, is doing. I finally called him on it and even suggested that he follow Arlen Specter’s lead and join the Democratic party. I think he has an incurable case of Potamic fever which rapidly eats the brain cells. I think his are gone. In the last election I voted, not for the Democrat but against Graham. If Harry Reid moved to SC and ran against Graham, I’d be tempted to vote for Reid. They both have about the same integrity problems. Anybody but Graham. Maybe Alvin Green can run against him next time. I’ll vote for Green.

  • spainishirish

    I don’t think the people of South Carolina are as stupid as this national disgrace believes, either. I will support with money and time and travel anyone who challenges this swishy liar.

  • aesthete

    How you got that magnificent sentiment out of the dreck that I wrote above, I have no clue :)

  • eburke

    whatever of my fortune Bambi hasn’t stolen by 2014 to support whoever primaries Graham in ’14.

    There isn’t an elected official in this *country* (and that includes any and all Democrats except for my douchebag senator Al Franken) that I am more committed to removing from public office than this pathetic excuse for a Republican and Senator.

  • eburke

    to Tea Partiers that he appeals to those whose IQs are in the triple digits.

    What a pompous, sanctimonious, arrogant, condescending total piece of (insert favorite non-family friendly noun here).

    I would vote for Johnny Mac before I would vote for Graham (and considering I’d vote for Becker’s room-temperature white cat before I’d vote for McCain, that’s saying something)

  • eburke

    to Tea Partiers that he appeals to those whose IQs are in the triple digits.

    What a pompous, sanctimonious, arrogant, condescending total piece of (insert favorite non-family friendly noun here).

    I would vote for Johnny Mac before I would vote for Graham (and considering I’d vote for Becker’s room-temperature white cat before I’d vote for McCain, that’s saying something)

  • AndrewHyman

    Moe, you requested a post-high-school level discussion of Wong Kim Ark. So, I went to my office and put that together for you. Here you go:

    http://www.redstate.com/andrewhyman/2010/08/14/what-does-subject-to-the-jurisdiction-thereof-mean-in-the-14th-amendment/

    I hope it’s understandable.

  • casca

    Birthright citizenship is about MONEY–simple as that? Billions of US dollars go to support the babies and their families in health care, schooling and other less known welfare programs. Once declared a citizen of the United States the Mother can access home care, low income housing, free school breakfast and lunches, interpreters, babysitting expenses and cash payment for every child. This includes $6 to 8.000 in post and pre-natal care and then she finds with all those extra services, its financially worth-while to have three or more children–that the US taxpayer is forced to pay for. It?s your money that comes out of your pocket, to pay for all these freebies. Be aware that front-line states like Arizona get the full brunt of the instant citizen flimflam. The federal government supposedly is reimbursing these states, but in never happens and the Hospitals absorb the debt?and as?always–the taxpayers.

    With a small amendment to the 14th amendment, this despicable “RACKET” will never be tolerated again. FAIR’S analysis of this matter, indicates that US taxpayer have 113 billion dollars to pay for these unceasing cases of instant citizenship. That once the Mother is domiciled in a Section 8 home, the rest of the illegal family moves in, including other pregnant sisters and aunts, that then can claim birthright citizenship for their baby, and another and the next one. So the underhand vicious cycle rolls on. This is for–ALL ILLEGAL EXPECTANT MOTHERS–who arrive here to have their children, from every poverty stricken corner of the world. In November eject every pro-amnesty incumbent from their seats in Washington and legislators in corrupt state assemblies.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    What if, say, Andre Bauer primaries Graham?

  • pilgrim
  • acat

    From the tone and word choice, it was fairly clear what you were after, even if it lacked context.

    Mew

  • drljr

    What some of the comments seem to miss is one critical point. Wong Kim Ark’s parents were legally in the US as private individuals running a business at the time of his birth. Nor were they in the country as representatives of the Chinese Government. The parents were “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” because they were actual immigrants and as a result Wong Kim Ark was born a citizen – a native born citizen. The fact he was a Chinese decent was irrelevant as he was a citizen by birth and the Chinese Exclusion Act could not be applied to him.

    This is the same issue for children born to actual immigrants. Remember, an immigrant is a person who ask for and receives permission to enter and stay the country. Illegal aliens are not immigrants but invaders. This is why children born to immigrants become citizens under Amendment 14. As with illegal aliens, the children of visitors born in the US are not US citizens either. The parents are not “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”.

    Amendment 14 requires at least one parent to be a citizen or the parents to have been admitted as actual immigrants. It is also why it is important to make and maintain a clear distinction between illegal aliens and visitors and children born them and citizens and actual immigrants.

    We simply need to follow what Amendment 14 states and what the clause “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” actually means and has always meant.

  • drljr

    Remember, under Amendment 14 an illegal or visitor can not produce a US citizen unless one of the parents is already a citizen. It is just a matter of enforcing Amendment 14 as written.

    The children are citizens of the country the parents are from. They just happen to be born in the US.

  • mbecker908

    In point of fact, that is most certainly not how it is applied across all fifty states and by the federal government and it has never been applied as you would choose.

    The only way your opinion might matter in this case is if you wear a black robe and your screen name is disguising your more recognizable name which would belong to a member of SCOTUS because that is where this will be decided.

  • acat