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The Democrats’ Disaster: More Americans Question Barack Obama’s Birth Story Than Support the Ground Zero Mosque

By: Erick Erickson (Diary)  |  August 17th, 2010 at 05:00 AM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

UPDATE: I’ve looked at more numbers. Consider this: the percentage of people who think 9/11 was an inside job is equal to the percentage of people who think the Ground Zero mosque is a good idea.
—–

“Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a man whose first reaction to the Time Square bombing plot was to blame people upset about Obamacare passing, has ceded being the face of that fringe to Barack Obama.”

There is no great split in the United States of America on the issue of the Ground Zero Mosque. Sixty-eight percent of Americans oppose it.

In fact, using the same metric — CNN Opinion Research polling of 1,000 Americans — more American have doubts about Barack Obama’s birth story than support the mosque.

Consider that for a minute.

Delving into the data, 27% of Americans believe Barack Obama was probably not born in the United States and 29% support building the Ground Zero mosque. If we can call the former group “fringe,” surely we can call the latter group fringe as well.

Add to the 27% who think Obama was not born in the United States the 29% who think he was born in the United States, but are not definitely sure and more American have doubts about Barack Obama’s birth story than support the mosque.

Therein lies the great problem for the Democrats and why Barack Obama has locked in a Democratic disaster come November. In essence, the Democrats have lost the ability to connect with normal people at a moral level. The Democrats’ inability to address the question of “should the mosque be built” after answering the question of “could the mosque be built” is a cultural turning point for independents. Just as normal people ran screaming from the “San Francisco Democrats” 26 years ago, they will now reject the second coming of the San Francisco Democrats.
Democrats were already looking at losses in November. Historically, the party in charge of the White House loses votes in the midterm elections. The odds were already against the Democrats.

With high and stagnant unemployment, the economy more likely than not back on the downturn, unstable foreign policy, things heating up in the Middle East, and a general feeling of angst and outrage over the elitist attitude of Washington, the Democrats were going to get a drubbing anyway.

But there has been for a while a silver lining for the Democrats. Generic Republicans still are more unpopular than generic Democrats in pretty much all the polling. Barack Obama siding with the Ground Zero mosque will change that dynamic and it will crush any Democrat hope of mitigating losses in November.

The 29% of Americans who Barack Obama has decided to line up with are convinced that the 68% who oppose the mosque are prejudiced bigots who hate all muslims. Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a man whose first reaction to the Time Square bombing plot was to blame people upset about Obamacare passing, has ceded being the face of that fringe to Barack Obama.

Seventy percent of independents oppose the Ground Zero mosque. The Democrats are screaming at the top of their lungs that we should all be talking about the economy because they know they are getting crushed on the mosque issue with independents. Think about that — the Democrats would rather get beaten up over the economy than over the mosque.

The reason is simple. Barack Obama’s support of the 29% fringe who support the mosque destroys the silver lining in all the polling. For the longest time independents have still liked Democrats more than Republicans because they thought culturally the Democrats were still on their side.

Today they see that is not the case. The Democrat elites that independent voters have loathed for forcing Obamacare, pushing cap and trade, etc. are now proclaiming as bigots the 70% of independents who oppose the mosque. Never mind that an equal percentage also believe the organizers of the mosque have the constitutional right to build the mosque. This overwhelming majority are still bigots to the Democrats and elite opinion leaders. That will not stand as normal people — the ones who vote out of civic responsibility but turn their noses up to the day in and day out political fight will fight this slander.

Barack Obama has now locked in a Democrat disaster in November because in lining up with the fringe who support the mosque, he, as leader of the Democratic Party, is declaring his party’s values are those of the elite, not normal Americans.

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  • rgue

    Like a cowboy that hasn’t practiced drawing his gun enough, Obama shot himself in the foot with this whole mosque thing. Obviously, it is insensitive to build it. World Net Daily had a story in 2007, I believe, about them trying to build a mosque at the Flight 93 sight. Hm, a pattern maybe?

    In any case, Obama should have known better; but, he is now endorsed by Hamas ( a well known “terrorist” org). They are 100% behind him to build the mosque. Geeez.

  • jackhammer

    Sorry to say it, but to me 27% is lower than 29%, and then you let your lawyer hang out with trying to add the “some doubt” number to that….was there a “could support” part of that poll…. (I couldn’t open the links…but it might be my work firewall)

    There was some poll a couple of days ago too, where you really made a stretch to read it like you did.

    We have enough clear polls out there, can we stick with them, rather than give us a headline, that isn’t self evident in the data. It is like when one of those left blogs picks apart the generic ballot numbers and says it is based on massive overweight in some southern states only….

    Sometimes I know why I banned lawyers from my company premises unless I am being sued, and why I will never vote for anyone who has ever set foot in a law school if I can possibly avoid it…..Dan McLaughlin as the lone exception;-)

  • http://reaganiterepublicanresistance.blogspot.com/ reaganiterepublicanresistance

    But maybe they’d rather take hits on the economy and stick as much of that on “Booosh” as still possible- explaining away Barack Obama’s own fringe-dwelling, far-left stance on the victory-flag GZM would be bit more challenging.

    The Dems face a shellacking in just 11 wks now… and by 2012, millions will lie to their kids about who they voted for “back in ’08″, while wincing at the very mention of the name “Obama”

    By that point, the GOP could take 40 states running Gilbert Gottfried, lol

  • Adjoran

    Then he will proceed to blame the continuing economic disaster on “Republican obstructionism” and claim that if only his proposals had been enacted, everything would have been all hopey-changy.

    It’s a long shot, but probably his best chance at reelection in 2012.

  • SoFiMil

    in order to do cross-tabulations?

  • http://www.voteforteri2010.com teridavisnewman

    Maybe Obama really is the Muslim the “fringe element” claims he is. Building this mosque is a slap in the face to all America, and while I realize that they have the right to do it, where’s the tolerance and sensitivity? They expect us to tolerate them and be sensitive to their feelings, and it’s a one-way street, apparently. Political correctness apparently only applies to white middle class America because we are the only ones who have to conform to it. It’s outrageous that Obama could support this and the fact that he didn’t condemn it tells me everything I ever need to know about his patriotism.

  • mdd1956

    one big teachable point for GOP candidates here is that the United States is a MELTING POT….that demands paying respect to certain civic sensitivities.

  • atillathehun

    Of course OBama is not a Christian. “We live in a non Christain nation” according to the annointed one.
    This is in addition to being a Marxist progressive who is “fundamentally transforming America.”
    Time to get the head out of the sand. people.

  • shoqandawe

    This guy does not understand the Arab street. Two examples:

    1. He wet to Cairo and criticized his own tribe. Arab street views him as a traitor to his tribe.
    2. The mosque was conceived to show how divided the US is still and how our own laws can still be used to cut our throats.

    They see it as either ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. And they know this is ‘wrong’.

    We are weak,

  • tjpeco

    >>[b]Add[/b] to the 27% who think Obama was not born in the United States [b]the 29% who think he was born in the United States, but are not definitely sure[/b] and more Americans have doubts about Barack Obama?s birth story than support the mosque.

  • gwalt

    If he wants to put all blame on GOP, he won’t be able to do it alone.
    The media will be out there every day doing his bidding for him.

    You, others here and MRC/Newsbusters as well as NRO do a great job exposing the bias. But that is all defense. We need Couric, Williams and Sawyers mugs on a board on I-75 in Macon and put Biased and Liberal under them.

    Without the media’s treasonous behavior, he would still be in Ill State Senate voting present. We listen to talk radio and know the gig, but Indpendents don’t know they are being lied to every day, kept information from and considered too stupid to know what is good for them. Thank you Andrea Mitchell.

    Let’s kick off football season with a good offense as well as defense. Who’s in?

  • 9th_amendment

    I’m with NJ Gov Christie on this one. Politicians should stay out of it. I just want a government that’s so small it doesn’t bother itself with where our religious/cultural institutions are built.

  • Locked and Loaded

    “(g)eneric Republicans still are more unpopular than generic Democrats in pretty much all the polling.”

    This is the saddest commentary I have seen of late. Proof to me that there is no faith among Republicans or the electorate in the GOP leadership, and I mean the official and unofficial leadership, Young Guns included. DeMint and (maybe because I’m biased) Inhofe are the only two that come to mind who have not managed to put some sort of weakness on parade.

    This doesn’t bode well for tamping down Independent candidacies, nor does it help put the kibosh on those who find it expedient to abandon one party for another. Along those lines, even Barack is likely to switch. No, not from (D) to (R); from (C) to (M).

  • nmcowboy

    From whence does the asserted right to build the mosque derive?

    Much has been made of the First Amendment; however, no such right derives therefrom. That Amendment is a restriction on the Congress and has no applicability to either the City nor the State of New York.

    Yes, I know all about the 14th Amendment and the judicially contrived doctrine of selective incorporation but that merely begs the question. Federalism, a key cog in our system of checks and balances has been virtually destroyed by the judiciary.

    The parroting of “they have the right” when the clear wording of the First Amendment creates no such right is to acquiesce in the destruction of federalism and the 10th Amendment by activists with an agenda who would feign cloak the same in the black robes of the judiciary.

  • partyof1

    New York City officials say a renewed search this year of debris in and around the World Trade Center site has recovered 72 human remains.

    http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Latest-WTC-Site-Search-Finds-72-Human-Remains-96965159.html?__source=Facebook

    Many of these recent discoveries of remains have been found during construction around Ground Zero.

    It’s therefore likely that more (but not all) will be found if this travesty goes ahead. So the final resting place of some of the September 11th victims remains could be under a mosque.

    This is why it’s a bad idea. It’s too close, too recent and still too painful. Some people are so afraid of appearing intolerant that they’ve lost all moral clarity. Good God even tolerance and religious freedom has its limits. Just tell them to build the thing somewhere else and have done with it.

  • Locked and Loaded

    there is a new class of “journalists” (the quotation marks won’t be required then) who are doing numerous stories about what complicit dolts the former class managed to be. The whole institution may collapse before that happens.

  • flajim

    The boy in the White House wasn’t raised her and didn’t receive his formative schooling here and therefore, can’t possibly understand our culture.

    He has no clue when someone mentions American Exceptionalism or Yankee ingenuity. They’re as foreign to him as societies who eat bugs are to us. He wears his anti-Americanism on his sleeve, however. He was raised in a world that most Americans would find perverse and will never be able to convince Americans to blindly follow him. That’s why he’s convinced that just one more speech will sway us.

    As long as he’s preaching constitutional conformity only when it suits his current purpose, he will be suspect – and should be.

  • acat

    in districts where the GOP candidate (or worse, incumbent) is moderate on several issues…

    And that means we may see Congress toggle back over to Dems while the Conservatives are still trying to control the GOP ..

    Note, though, that this can only happen when those same “independent” or “tea party as a third party” folk can attract enough followers and money to proceed – and surely we of Red State can do some good in bringing them back into the Conservative fold…

    Mew

  • NotSoBlueStater

    Crazy? Yes. But we lauded Bush for equally “stupid” things. I think most of the stands he takes are simply wrong, but I admire in him the willingness to take them.

    Roger Simon has a piece making that point on Politico this morning. Obviously part of Obama’s “smarter than thou” personality includes a penchant for believing that his superior intellect will win the day — that he will eventually talk us into all of it.

  • acat

    One person, with a laser printer and a web server, can be a publisher.

    One person, with a flipcam and a notebook (computer or paper) can be a reporter.

    The last refuge of a dying business is sometimes an attempt to make the business into part of the government, to codify the business plan into the law of the land so it can be preserved, in legal amber.

    The whole debate over who is and who isn’t a reporter, whether Moe Lane* or Helen Thomas qualify for the title, seems to me to be the news business digging into the legal sap just as fast as they can…. because otherwise their business model is toast.

    The downside in this trade-off is that the U.S.A. is going to have a much more European news media inside of twenty years – that is, a bunch of news writers, each with his or her own bias, some right out in plain view, some neatly hidden away.

    Interesting times for the L.A. Times indeed.

    Mew

    * Given the candidate interviews and field reporting Moe has been doing, I have no doubt he’s a reporter, and intended no offense by mentioning his name in such close proximity to the former exemplar of the rot in the white house press corps…

  • renny

    as much influence in elections again as it did in 2006 and 2008.

    No one is going to unquestioningly accept charges that Reps. are a “culture of corruption” without a nod to Rangel and ilk. Bush’s unemployment of c. 5% for years looks much better than the pushing 10% chronically of the little o admin.

    And, some of the media is showing its own recognition. The LA Times is going to run a series on how poor the education in CA is and use testing data as a basis. The CAEA is so twitted, it’s threatening a boycott of the LA Times. For the LA Times to take on the teachers’ union is a huge step.

    Rolling Stone broke the McChrystal story, which it probably thought was great anti-war stuff, but really showed the indecision and poor war leadership froming from little o.

    The Washington Post got rid of its “conservative” expert, who betrayed his personal loathings on email.

    The NYTimes has spent tons on consultants for years to try and expand its shrinking subcriptions (that feeds its shrinking ad base) and has been told it cannot sell in the metropolitan suburbs with its leftist editorial stance in every piece. So, it did try creating separate cuts (sections) for LI and CT, etc. but they could not counter-balance the Maureen Dowd-Frank Rich hysteria of the main paper. Those who’ve been forewarned should be fore armed. If not, the door will hit them on the way out.

  • NotSoBlueStater

    I fear for the death of professional news gathering — biased or no. Biased coverage is at least coverage. Even biased stories written by pros have the needed information in them when you read down far enough.

    We’re in a world where fewer and fewer people are paid to gather the news. The founders would fear such a thing.

  • indyjohn

    self-appointed Ruling Class political hacks who control the Democrat Party have demonstrated, time and again, that they have utter contempt for the concerns and cultural attitudes of suburban and rural Americans. They believe that the unenlightened riff-raff who live outside of our cities need to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the glorious collectivist utopian future that the Annointed Ones have planned for us.
    The moderate/independent voters finally seems to be catching on to the fact that they have been scammed – that everything the Democrat leadership and their willing accomplices in the media have told them is fraudulent – that they were manipulated into giving a bunch of closet radicals the reigns of power. The Progressives were playing a dangerous game, betting that they could hide their fascistic intentions past the point where they could change the rules permanently. But in their arrogance, they went all-in prematurely, and drew a busted flush.

  • http://www.erickerickson.org Erick Erickson

    We have two polls of 1000 adult Americans conducted by the same firm for the same news organization within a month of each other and we can’t compare them?

    Nonsense.

  • youngsterz

    The amazing thing to me is how Obama should have just kept his mouth shut and stayed far away from this one, but his arrogance simply won’t allow him to do so. I was stunned when he weighed in with his position, because it is politically toxic and will do nothing other than tick off the majority even more, something he can ill afford.

    It makes absolutely no sense for Obama to have done and said what he did. It is beyond stupid. He really stepped in a huge steaming pile of dookie, by himself, by design. Either he is completely clueless, or unbelieveably arrogant. Unfortunately for all of us, it is probably both, which is a terrible thing to have in our President.

    Looking forward to November. I believe the entire economy is holding its breath, to see what happens in November, seeking some confirmation that some sense of balance can be restored and give us hope for the future.

    Come on America; it’s completely in your hands to choose liberty or bondage.

  • http://www.erickerickson.org Erick Erickson

    The PDF’s are provided with all they made public.

  • http://www.erickerickson.org Erick Erickson

    We do not call the President of the United States “boy” here at RedState, whether we like him or not. Do it again and you’re gone.

    Manchild is acceptable, however. “Boy” is too loaded a term and we should be mindful of that.

  • johnt

    something Saul Alinsky found out in the woods.
    Hussien the O is giving stupidity a bad name. Could this be the turning point in the mindless cliche that Republicans, conservatives, and other normal people are always stupid, and collectivist trash represent the wisdom of Athena?
    The ape couldn’t keep his mouth shut, that’s what his life long faith has done to him, that and not being very bright.
    The media must be dying, all their hard work and lying going to waste.

  • http://www.twitter.com/RS_yoyo yoyo

    …did Democrats have/get “Values?”

    To have “values” implies some sort of “standard” and/or “morals”, and we all know that they think that all of this is relativistic.

    No morals, no standards, no values.

    0 + 0 = 0, or to put another way, O[bama] + Speaking = (R) votes.

  • dexter_green

    Jackhammer’s right on this one. Erick’s sensational headline isn’t supported by the numbers. At best it’s a big stretch that relies on a very strained interpretation of what it means to “have doubts” about Obama’s birth. “Probably born in the U.S.” != “Question Barack Obama’s Birth Story.” (E.g., Are “probable” voters people who have doubts about whether they’ll vote?) See my comment title for my suggested headline “fix.” If you’re feeling more aggressive, take it a step further and say it has “Achieved” fringe status. Or, “Obama Joins Fringe in Support of Ground Zero Mosque.”

    The point is equally strong if the numbers are left to speak for themselves, and that way there’s no room for accusations of dishonesty by those who would seek to undermine this line of criticism. The statistics are striking–27% vs. 29%–and most honest people will (rightly) see these as essentially equivalent. Dragging the “probably born in the US” crowd into it provides an easy way to attack the story without having to address the point it’s making: Obama’s way out of line with the rest of the country on this one.

  • ss396

    Responsibility does not sit well on his shoulders; a Republican sweep would allow him to just sign legislation without having to describe or defend his stance on it. Effectively, he would be voting “present” again, which is where he is most comfortable. Like all Democrats and Progressives, he needs an external authority, no matter how contrived, to cite for his actions since he cannot bear personal responsibility. It takes courage to have a personal principled stand, and moreso to defend it. Again, this is not a concept that he is comfortable with.

    Sensitive and thin-skinned,and despite the meme of how smart he supposedly is/was, being shown as a buffoon for his every utterance cannot be working well for his mental health.

  • ss396

    It is not so much that they have a right to build it, but that the city does not have a valid cause to deny the permit. The First Amendment stuff is a straw man argument.

  • fpete13527

    Excellent analysis Erick, I completely agree with your argument.

    Obama and the Dem core are FRINGE (Socialist, Sharia supporting, anti-US) centric only. They have no clue what most people in U.S. are about. Independents don’t want that fringe.

    Even the liberal edge of Independents will vote AGAINST the now CONFIRMED Democrat core.

  • ss396

    Nothing can happen without all the building trades to build it. Aren’t they all unionized in New York? Wouldn’t it be sweet to have the labor unions standing on the principle of their professed patriotism for America, and refuse to build the thing?

    Well I can dream, can’t I?

  • dexter_green

    The objection isn’t that you’re comparing the polls, it’s that you misinterpreted one in doing so.

    You’re the politics expert, so you can obviously make your own judgment. But from the perspective of this average Joe who dislikes and distrusts Obama as much as the next guy, characterizing “Probably born in the US” as expressing doubts is not persuasive and takes away from the larger point you’re making.

    I don’t doubt that Obama was born in the U.S., but if I had participated in that poll, I would likely have been among the probablies simply because I’m more comfortable with the measured response. On the other hand, if the poll had had only two possible responses: I think Obama is … “foreign-born” or “US-born”?–or better yet, was recast as “Do you doubt that Obama was born in the US–yes or no?” I would have been in the latter camp on both.

    Will the sun rise tomorrow? Probably.
    Is there some minute chance that it won’t? Sure.
    But do I doubt that it will? No.

    It’s an issue of interpretation–an important one, I think, but a semantic argument nonetheless. Reasonable minds may differ. Although, naturally, I think I’m right. :)

  • rsturm

    The ground-zero site is more than just a ‘hallowed ground’ of remembrance; it is a GRAVESITE! Change.org says this is ‘a sign of whether America can make peace with Islam’ – who suffers from our terrible verbal attacks, no doubt, ..as opposed to the Twin Towers disaster, or its collateral damages to Burlington’s that made this whole topic come about. Seriously.

    But let’s stop ‘chumming’ for outrage… First, it just won’t work for the birth-certificate issue now; any evidence adequate to hold up in court has either been locked up or destroyed. Secondly there will be enough outrage if they cave to Bloomberg / Obama / Muslim pressure, and only because the “handlers” believe Obama can ‘chum’ for some November votes has he even entered the fray.

  • rsturm

    The ground-zero site is more than just a ‘hallowed ground’ of remembrance; it is a GRAVESITE! Change.org says this is ‘a sign of whether America can make peace with Islam’ – who suffers from our terrible verbal attacks, no doubt, ..as opposed to the Twin Towers disaster, or its collateral damages to Burlington’s that made this whole topic come about. Seriously.

    But let’s stop ‘chumming’ for outrage… First, it just won’t work for the birth-certificate issue now; any evidence adequate to hold up in court has either been locked up or destroyed. Secondly there will be enough outrage if they cave to Bloomberg / Obama / Muslim pressure, and only because the “handlers” believe Obama can ‘chum’ for some November votes has he even entered the fray.

  • JSobieski

    Whether directly or through a proxy?

  • minncon

    Note my post of a few weeks ago…

    PERHAPS A “MULBERRY ST. ACTION WILL SAVE THE DAY?”
    MINNCONN Tuesday, August 3rd at 11:08AM EDT
    ——————————

    For those who aren?t from NYC, Mulberry St. is in the heart of Little Italy, longtime home to the Italian-Catholic community of New York.

    Let?s suppose all the approvals happen, building permits DO get drawn and construction is finally ready to begin?

    Maybe some of the construction crew will suddenly take ?ill?? Maybe some key material deliveries get missed? Followed by a few mysterious construction ?accidents?? Then maybe a work stoppage because of unfair labor practices? And finally, the night before the grand opening, a suspicious fire breaks out and burns the building to the ground.

    Such things do not happen in New York City, do they?

    Heh heh.

  • gwalt

    There are people, millions of them, that aren’t like us who watch and track politics like some do Fantasy Baseball.
    If they were just made the least bit suspicious (by calling out the news anchors as biased and untrustworthy) it may bring down the MSM to its knees.
    They’re going to come after us no matter what and attack, attack, attack. Most of it out of context, made up and a lie. They will then move on like nothing happened.
    I’m suggesting we attack them first and make them play defense. Let them answer a charge. Let them try to explain why on earth their faces are on public display and their integrity put into question.
    Why is the Tea Party called out each and every week? They should get the same treatment. They wouldn’t be able to handle it—their skin is as thin as TOTUS.

  • smitch61

    Have been fighting for along time. Your probably right about 2007 but I thought it was longer.

  • NoDoze

    like the JournoList propagandists. If they “report” what is happening, it is for manipulation of the idiots, and people who don’t have time to investigate the facts for themselves.

    I would prefer that all news be reported by people who have a degree of honesty in their reporting, and the current crop of “professional” reporters don’t qualify.

  • The_Rebel

    been blocking the rebuilding of the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which was destroyed on 9/11, and which has been there since 1922. And by government, I mean all branches-local, state and federal. Yet, this mosque has an easy path from our government to rise 31 stories above that sacred ground.

    How is it appropriate to build a mosque with money funded by a radical faith that has no problem eliminating anyone that stands in their way, as witness this latest meeting out of sharia law?:

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/afghanistan/2010-08-16-stoning-deaths-adultery_N.htm

    Where is the outrage from the imam behind the proposed Cordoba House?

  • NotSoBlueStater

    But no amount of citizen journalism can replace the dirty work done by people with press passes gathering the raw data every day — biased or not. It’s what drives the news cycle.

  • jackhammer

    but yes, you are comparing a poll (the mosque one) with a favor or oppose to one with nuanced answers (def, probably, prob not, not) and weighting a portion of the prob’s into the “have doubts” column.

    I am not saying it might not be statistically valid, adn that you can make an argument for it…but it does seem like a stretch. Some people, like my dad and brother, tend just to read headlines and then run with their assumptions of what the text was….doing that here would get you into trouble.

    Given whatever the MoE is on any of these it is probably valid to say “is just as fringe”

  • Michael Dugas

    The problem is that we are no longer the Melting Pot we used to be. Immigrants used to come here and WANT to be Americans, desired assimilation into our society. Now, more ans more, they come here for money, work etc. Stay isolated within their own societal peer group and have no desire to MELT in with the rest of America.
    They have come here mdd1956 they should be paying respect to OUR sensibilities.

  • myoda176

    The point of the article was not the polls. The polls were just used as proof to verify the argument being presented. I found it interesting that the point being made was that the Dems consider the Birthers to be a fringe group.
    And using a standard logic formula, if there are more people who are birthers than there are that support the mosque, then why aren’t the people who support the mosque considered fringe according to their own standards?

    Standard logic flow:
    1st point:
    Item A: Birthers are considered a fring group by the Dems since they have such low support.
    Item B: 29% of people who responded are considered birthers.
    Item C: Therefore, these 29% are considered a fringe group.
    2nd Point:
    Item A: 27% of people who responded support the mosque.
    Item B: 27% is less than 29%.
    Item C: Therefore, if 29% is considered “fringe” then so should the 27%.

    Further in the article, it mentioned some other cases where Obama is supporting causes that have low support. Why is he not considered fringe when it keeps happening over and over?

    I keep wondering why the topic always gets changed from the original point whenever a topic is discussed? Example: Andrew Breitbart and Shirley Sherrod. The story was changed from the NAACP to Andrew Breitbart. Why do we allow the topic or point to be diverted?

    Personally, I had no trouble following Erick’s logic and I agree with his point completely.

  • jackhammer

    but your logic flow is flawed:

    27% could be considered Birthers
    29% support the Mosque

    so on the same polling standard, being a birther is “slightly more” fringe than being in favor of the mosque.

    The rest of his arguments are fine, just the headline goes too far, and since we are in the right, there is no reason to.

  • ss396

    The city has no valid cause to deny the building permit. With the myriad of laws, rules, regulations, findings, you name it, I’m sure that they could find one if they wanted to. They don’t want to.

    And, yes, where is the outrage – from the Imams around the world, or from anybody on the left against the stoning. Even the statement from Human Rights Watch was perfunctory and lame.

    Christianity is so hated, because “no one can come to the Father but through Me.” There is no alternate path, and that level of uncompromising absolutism is intolerable to what passes for culture today. Moral relativism is so much easier – and so much more cowardly. It takes no courage to stand for nothing. Res ipsa loquitur.

    Cheers!

  • clintonformccain

    Historically, immigrant groups have always maintained a separate community at first: little Italy neighborhoods, Irish neighborhoods, Chinatown neighborhoods, and so on and so forth. The “assimilation” occurs over two or three generations, with each successive batch of kids growning up to have more of an American cultural identity and less attachment to the “old” culture. We see the same thing occurring with recent waves of immigrants, be they Latino, Indian, or Asian. It just we are, in many cases, only now seeing the second and third generations for some of these groups.

    In some ways, it could be argued that the assimilation is accelerated now, what with the pervasiveness of the mass media culture, especially among the youth. In fact, that assimilation is global with teens in Asia listening to the same music and buying the same clothing brands as teens in the US. I mean, that’s really what brought down the Berlin Wall. In the world of TV and raido, a simple stone wall couldn’t prevent East Berliners from knowing (and wanting) what was on the other side of that wall.

  • myoda176

    Okay, I feel like a Monty Python sketch where I want to buy an argument and we are now arguing that the time is up.

    The next paragraph in his article states that 29% believe it is probable that he was born in the US but not sure, means that the 27% are part of that group known as birthers since the next group are not sure. So the original 27% should be considered birthers on the farthest extreme. The other extreme is

    If you are taking the extreme choice, then why doesn’t it fit the same definition that the 29% that support the mosque are the extreme choice?
    He’s taking the most logical comparison and bringing them together.

    It made perfect sense to me.

  • aesthete

    of the newsworthyness of the story to get Port Authority to approve the St Nicolas church.

  • cwilson

    was basically a mosque, oriented toward Mecca. You’re telling me they wanted to build ANOTHER mosque next door?

  • gd10782

    “Cracker”?. Just joking, I know, I know we have to very careful of everyone feelings these days. I just wonder if it would work that way in reverse. I’m getting tired of taking the high moral ground all the time. God bless all of you but I’m out of here, I’m SO sick of all the TALKING and nothing seems to change. I pray you guys can take this country back nicely but what are you going to do if you can’t?
    I do understand Eric’s point of course and it’s vaild but it’s growing old fast and I think your running out of time to change things back to the good ole days of Yes Sir and No Sir etc & Respect for the office and all that.
    The Barbarians are coming and God help me I may be one of them.
    Bye.

  • cwilson

    are independent, reader-supported reporters of the old-school (what will be the new-school) sort. You want quality, honest reporting: support people like them (each has a paypal link) with the cash you’re no longer sending to the local fishwrap.

  • dexter_green

    First, to get this out of the way: We’re all on the same page regarding the larger point about Mosque support being fringe. It is. And you’re absolutely right: it makes perfect sense to compare the 29% mosque support with the 27% “extreme choice” birthers. That is the most logical comparison.

    But that’s not what we’re objecting to. The issue is whether it’s true that MORE people “doubt Obama’s birth story” than support the mosque.

    The confusion in the numbers in your first post demonstrates why I think making that claim is a mistake, even if a strained argument can be made to support it. Erick didn’t simply compare the 29% mosque support with the 27% “extreme choice” birthers.

    The polls say:
    * 27% think Obama was “probably” or “definitely” born in another country.
    * 29% think Obama was “Probably born in the U.S.”
    * 41% think Obama was “Definitely born in the U.S.”

    *29% support the Ground Zero Mosque

    Erick interprets this to mean that 56% of Americans “have doubts” about whether Obama was born in the U.S., and therefore people with doubts outnumber people who support the mosque–and that’s where the headline comes from. He’s not just comparing “extreme choice” birthers with mosque support anymore.

    As this whole conversation demonstrates, making that claim and combining those groups confuses the argument and serves as a target for claims of misrepresentation from people who aren’t on our team. They can attack the headline and undermine the article without having to acknowledge its point about Obama’s fringe viewpoint. The remedy, as I see it: Don’t make that claim in the first place. Keep it simple and straightforward and logically unassailable.

    …

    I think this is where we all join hands and sing Kum-bah-yah? :)

  • Tbone

    because they ask me why Obama has spent a couple of million bucks keeping his BC hidden and his school records hidden and I can’t come up with a good answer for that.

  • remnant60
  • remnant60

    No wonder you are on my top 10 of folks to search for on this site…
    Your style might be different than VB’s, but no less compelling.

  • remnant60

    On our dime?

  • remnant60

    In sending the Imam to places he can pull out his “begging cup”…

  • myoda176

    It always seemed to cheesy for me. Give me “Always look on the Bright Side of Life” any day.

    The prior posts did not seem that we were on the same page and agree that Obama is fringe. It looked like people were attempting to deflect the argument to something else that could be argued against, much like what happened with the NAACP and Mr Breitbart.

    I will say this before I log off tonight: I have always thought that Obama is a fringe candidate and I voted for McCain, not because I thought McCain was better, but because I was afraid of Obama if he won. The next day, I walked into work and stated, “Welcome to the new Socialitst States of America, home of the unmotivated and land of the entitled” If you listened to him at various events before the election, you could see where he was going to take us. Terry Goodkind in his book “Faith of the Fallen” has a line that stuck me as completely appropriate regarding Obama: “They have traded in their freedom, not for a bowl of soup, but for the promise of a bowl of soup.”

  • Christine (Trelaina)

    …sometimes it’s worth a few million to keep your enemies guessing, especially when you can make them look like fools while you’re at it.

  • Christine (Trelaina)

    …sometimes it’s worth a few million to keep your enemies guessing, especially when you can make them look like fools while you’re at it.

  • remnant60
  • remnant60

    Don’t let the door hit you in the @zz on your way out….

  • remnant60

    Has been my eyes and ears on the ground for years…what an example for the LSM he should be…

  • Nevile

    This entry is unworthy of you. It is complete pants. It reads like the feverish dreams that result from an overdose of skunk buds from Mendocino.

    You are comparing apples to oranges. No data exists that shows that the same people who believe BO is not natural born are the same as those who believe that building the mosque is a good idea, which is the only way that your thesis could have any logical claim to validity. You do not prove your argument thereby, and that serves only to weaken in other people’s eyes the validity of your advocacy of other causes .

    So stop wasting your time – and ours – by blathering along a completely non-sensical, illogical train of thought, and get back to some real analysis, based on real data, which you have often done to great effect.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    … that I get the sense you think Erick hit too close to home, or that you apparently are too lazy to actually read what Erick wrote.

  • Michael Dugas

    joined communities such as you represented, Irish, Italian, Chinese. They did this for language and social reasons. But the majority of them were true believers in the American Dream and they, and especially their kids, were going to be Americans. With some, like the Chinese this assimilation was harder due to the suspicions and mistrust of government that they brought with them from China.

    Now these groups are basically told it’s ok or even preferable to stay in their socioeconomic cliques under the banner of Multiculturalism.
    This leads to a fractured society and a myriad of problems.

    Don’t confuse foreign youth’s like of western music and the like for some sort of acceptance of western culture. They are just taking what they like but are still taught to hate western government. (referencing Middle Eastern Youth particularly)

  • Richard Mullins

    and Nevile( like Neville Chamberlain) is a groveling idiot, that forgot that old maxim, engage brain before typing. Nevile didn’t do that and I hope he gets wacked at the knees.

  • Tbone

    It really, really is. It is, in fact so stupid it is insulting and it should be embarrassing to anyone who presents it. God bless you sweetie, but you really need to not throw this nonsense out anymore. I know down deep you are far more clever than to really believe it. So, if I have high faith in your abilities, shouldn’t you step up with a better response?

  • tacoslayer

    especially when they are angry.

    ;)

  • Tbone

    Answer the question or go stick another taco in your evidently front “toofless” pie hole.

    I don’t care where the sidewalk was where the Obama pile was originally dumped, but I do know that he is culturally not an American and we are suffering because of it.

    But to say he has continued to hide his records just to screw with his critics is silly.

  • SoFiMil

    Someone accidentally didn’t respond to Christine (above).

  • SoFiMil

    I read Erick’s article, but didn’t click on the links. Thankfully, Erick directed me toward the numbers I was seeking.

  • SoFiMil

    I think Christine has us surrounded.

  • janis

    Saw a bit on Drudge earlier that I didn’t have to follow up on, but it said that the WH released a copy of O’s passport. Of course it had the issue date blurred out and when and where he used it, too.

    He refuses to release any of his records because it would sink his sorry a** once and for all.

  • jackhammer

    and he makes the same sort of obfuscated reach….for all intents and purposes 29 and 27 are the same…don’t overreach…

  • mdd1956

    I think every “Diversity Manager” should be fired and every Diversity program be terminated.

    Assimilation of others and their cultures into the uniquely American Experiment is just one example of American exceptional ism.

  • Christine (Trelaina)

    has its advantages :)

  • Christine (Trelaina)

    has its advantages :)

  • ywhyvon1

    We still have a horse in this race. At this comment it is 8/26/2010

    Murkowski in Alaska is talking running Indepenent if she can’t stuff the absentee ballot in her favor.

    Dr Bensishek has a renegade in MI01 to contend with.

    The Florida Orange is trying to squeeze something out of Obama.

    I think pressure on Allen in the Michigan race did alot to convince him(Allen) that it was in his best interest to concede primary to Dr B. rather than force a recount.

    Charlie the fishy smelling guy is probably out of our reach, but he’s done hook line and sinker (I hope)

    Murkowski perhaps can be shamed into conceding??

    The guy in MI01 planning on splitting the ticket needs to be beat down with help from us as far as money to Benishek, volunteers to make calls(which can be done from the comfort of your own home anywhere in the US or anywhere else).

    Get on the stick, folks!

  • ywhyvon1

    My first thought regarding your comment was- “What are you going to do to take this country back?”

    Are you a PC(party committee person)?
    Do you do any canvasing?
    Do you volunteer to make calls from the comfort of your own home for candidates in your own area-or across the country?
    If you are able, do you donate a few bucks to candidates in your own area or maybe another promising candidate somewhere else in the US?

    My second thought? see Remnant60′s comment.

  • ywhyvon1

    If you want people to buy your news-give them the news, nothing but he news.

    No Slant. Otherwise, you go down just like every other business that doesn’t offer what is needed.

    Oh wait, this is America. News Outlets are too important to fail even if they are rags…….A little bailout here please.

  • Christine (Trelaina)

    that your conspiracy theory is worthy of respect and attention, but mine is nonsense and somehow indicative of my intelligence.

    I would say it’s just as likely Soros parted with a couple million for grins and giggles as it is that some woman in Indonesia looked at her newborn son and said “OMG I gotta find a way to make it look like he was born in Hawaii”.

    I’m also not your sweetie.