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The Nightmaes in Colorado Remain

By: Erick Erickson (Diary)  |  September 30th, 2010 at 10:42 AM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Yet another day the long Colorado nightmaes of Dan Maes continues. I think I’m just going to keep beating this like a dead horse every day.

Yes, the time for Maes to go and have the ballot changed has passed. But as long as Maes remains active, some voters will stick with him and not go to Tancredo who has a much better shot.

There is much at stake in Colorado, including the election of Ken Buck.

Dan Maes needs to do the right thing and get out.

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  • rdelbov

    he had his chance to do the very right thing but failed to do so.

    What a mess.

  • Oz

    Maybe we add the Caveat “unless they drop below 20%” and are in third?

  • IJB

    Maes doesn’t merit support because of his massive ethical lapses.

    Are we supposed to support every corrupt candidate who has an “R” after their names just because they manage to squeak through a primary?!

    Look, the “support the Republican in the General” rule is always going to be a 99.5% proposition – there are still going to be the occasional primaries where someone slips through who doesn’t merit our support, “R” or no. Pretending otherwise is just ignoring the facts.

    CO GOV is one of those exceptions.

  • desertwanderer

    Maes is a deeply flawed candidate. He has no chance of winning and, because of unwillingness to be a team player, has cost the GOP a governorship. That may be bigger than it appears now when reapportionment comes up before the 2012 elections. Imagine if a conservative was governor when Colorado divided up its house seats!!

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Apparently there are exceptions to every rule.

    Now we have a name for it. When you don’t think the current crop of candidates are worthy of election, you pull a Tancredo.

    When Crist, Murkowski & Castle did this, there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. When a very long time diarist sticks by his principles and loyalties by supporting one of them, he’s discarded with the day’s trash.

    But when it goes the other way, well, that’s different.

    This is plain and simple for me folks. I’d vote for Hickenlooper before I’d vote for Tancredo. And no, I’m not voting for Hickenlooper. That should tell you right there when I’ll vote for Tancredo.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I think you are overlooking actual differences in these situations.

    Stick with the better argument you made. Supporting Maes in order to defend the Republican party’s ballot placing is a defensible position. Much more so than trying to play gotcha with Erick over a rule.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I don’t want the establishment deciding which primaries count and which don’t.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Because once you say there’s even one time when it’s ok, then there will be others. So then who is going to decide? There seemed to be some real ethical issues with O’Donnell, though I obviously don’t have the same level of information there as I do here.

    Sure, this whole thing stinks. Better to stick with principle though than do the expedient thing. That’s especially true in this race since Tancredo is no better than Maes. They’re both self-serving egotistical opportunists that would never be interested in the needs of Coloradans. I hope they both burn in political hell after this is over.

  • acat

    And if he did jump in the primary and lost, how is he not Murkowsky – only with a weaker opponent?

    That said, this cat wonders what game Erick is playing.

    Mew

  • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil_truth

    …if Maes loses significantly, that could be the lever to crack the Republican Establishment in the Colorado primary, as people dissect that flawed process and the missteps of the party leadership and intensify demands for cleaning out the bums.

    But if we dump Maes, then we become the scapegoats instead of the Establishment as they can they point the finger at us for not supporting the nominee. Amplified by the media who are looking constantly for any excuse to dump on conservatives.

    Plus the 10% argument, but that’s been mentioned before.

    No one at RedState has pointed out a poll that indicates Tancredo has a reasonable chance of winning a 2-way race. If correct, then it makes even less sense to justify dumping the Republican nominee and get nothing in return.

    Dumping Maes would seem to be a lose-lose scenario.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    At one point there were 10 or 11 GOP candidates for Governor. He stayed out and then when it got near the end, he decided that the remaining candidates weren’t good enough so he had to come in and “save the State”. It was too late to get into the GOP primary, so he hijacked the Constitution Party nomination in a smoke-filled backroom deal.

    Is this really something we want to encourage under any circumstances? If so, who decides? Tom Tancredo? Erick Erickson? Joe Average Voter??

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    He’s at the top of his support threshhold right now. The guy is just too wacko for a lot of people to support.

  • JSobieski

    or at a minimum, the rule of supporting the R in the general, is apparently filled with holes.

    Ultimately voters decide this stuff, and maybe RS should pull for Trancredo. However, this does undercut the message with respect to other contexts.

    Every rule has exceptions, but at some point, the exceptions blur the rule.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Look, I just think your other argument was better. I also think that dragging Rubio and Miller down just to make a point isn’t helpful. YMMV.

  • http://slcliberty.blogivists.com randy streu

    They CHOSE Maes. It’s their state.

    Are we now gonna dump primary-elected candidates we deem unworthy?

    ‘cuz, if that’s the case, I would expect to hear apologies to those RSers who were shouted down after McCain won.

    “Conservative in the PRIMARY, Republican in the General” is a good rule, and I don’t see any reason for it not to apply here.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    My beef is with Crist, Murkowski, Castle AND Tancredo. They’re all the same to me. Apparently, they aren’t all the same to everyone.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Even though I have shown respect for your argument on why an R needs to be supported, I am met with passive aggressive crap like this:

    “Apparently, they aren?t all the same to everyone.”

    Considering this entire thing is a crap sandwich, I don’t think people should be making any long term judgement or attempts to stick it to Erick for breaking his own rule.

    But by all means, if you think acting this way will help Maes get the needed percentage for the R’s to maintain their privileged status, carry on.

  • Doc Holliday

    I have always kind of liked Tancredo. I don’t know what the problem with Maes is. But I see nothing passive-aggressive in the comment Night makes. I see fault with the comment because it makes no sense. Tancredo is conservative while all the others mentioned are not.

    I promise to look into this race before I comment on this again.

  • Doc Holliday

    we are getting some pretty crappy candidates this year. We have the establishment pushing RINO’s and the Tea Party SOMETIMES electing very flawed people. Yes, that is democracy, I see no other alternative. But if a few of us could have come together and picked them all, we would have even a better slate lol. I am not saying I support the idea, but we do have to take the good with the bad because of our system, the worst system in the world………..except for all the others.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    I’m just saying it’s a lot easier to stick to your principles when it’s going the way you want. It’s a lot harder the other way. Not everyone that disagrees with you is unreasonable. I believe my arguments are valid. You don’t have to like them, but you also don’t have to pull this crap. There’s nothing passive aggressive about my comments. There seems to be one rule when you get the candidate you want and another rule when you don’t. I’m simply calling out the inconsistency.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Exceptions are going to happen. There will be candidates who win earlier primaries who end up not being what the voters wanted. This is clear considering Maes’ standing in the polls.

    You put together a compelling argument about why the exception shouldn’t apply yesterday. I am saying you should stick with that argument instead of trying to point out that Erick is being hypocritical.

    But again, if you think going after Erick on this is more important than reiterating the very valid argument that supporting Maes is good for the State Party, go ahead. I am done trying to stop you.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Scozzafava was selected in a smoke-filled backroom. Dan Maes was elected by the majority of GOP voters in a valid Primary election.

    This isn’t about who’s good and who’s not, it’s about what’s been said around here for a long time, and now is being changed just because of a crappy candidate. I’m not the only one that’s noticing it, including at least on FP contributor.

  • Aaron Gardner
  • acat

    Buckley, the original, not the 2nd generation knock-off who supported Obama of all people, had this rule. Support the most conservative candidate who is electable.

    I’m not going to defend Erick here, he’s certainly capable of defending himself, but .. if there are problems with the candidate *that render the candidate unelectable* then there are reasons to not support the candidate.

    The best way to get out of this, and the one thing that I haven’t seen you do, is to vigorously defend Maes. If he’s really that indefensible, maybe Erick has a point here.

    Mew

  • pilgrim

    http://www.redstate.com/nighttwister/2010/09/29/it-is-time-to-get-behind-dan-maes/

    I suppose “vigorously defend Maes” instead of “defend Maes” is a judgement call, but NT wrote a diary you may have missed.

  • acat

    Erick says Maes is a problematic candidate and must go.

    The only possible defense to that is to show why Maes is not a problematic candidate, or why Maes has learned from the problems.

    Instead, NightTwister spends the whole diary making the argument entirely about the process, not about Maes himself.

    Seems to me, that’s a pretty weak defense of “his candidate”.

    Mew

  • http://phxg.wordpress.com/ phxg

    I have resigned to the fact that Hickenlooper will be the next Gov.

    I suppose he can’t be any worse than the last Dem governor I lived under, Janet Napolitano.

  • Aaron Gardner

    But I also think this race is a valid exception to the general rule.

  • acat

    I want to make sure that I understand what you’re saying here since I could interpret it two ways….

    1) The process is the problem, there’s nothing wrong with Maes, so no defense is needed.

    2) The process screwed up and selected a bad candidate, Maes, who is himself indefensible.

    Mew

  • Aaron Gardner

    I was talking about Night’s points about needing a certain percentage of the vote to maintain the CO Republican parties privileged status on the ballot. That was Night’s main argument for supporting Maes. I agree with that argument.

    Even with that said, I also agree that Maes as a candidate is indefensible on his merits.

  • renny

    but since he has and he’s the much better candidate for cons., we should support him.

    Maybe Maes will take the hint, but I would bet no ranches. Look at Crist and Murkowski

  • IJB
  • cordpt

    The same guy who voted for TARP, the Medicare expansion bribe, the Real ID, the Energy bill? A guy who sides with the unions against the freedom of the individual to engage in trade with any person of their choosing?

    That’s the problem right there… giving a pass to so-called conservatives like Tancredo (or DeLay, Hastert, Bush, etc). That kind of candidates give conservatism a bad name. And people prefer them to RiNOs (many of whom are actually more conservative than a right-wing socialist like Tancredo).

  • cordpt

    Except that Castle isn’t running against the winner of the republican primaries.

  • acat

    or is this one high enough that a Tancredo-party victory would really damage Repub standing in the state?

    Seems to me that if the Dems have managed to work under the DFL banner in Minnesota all these years, the Repubs could operate under a different brand in Colorado…

    Mew

  • cordpt

    However this incident proves how fair superior is Buckley’s rule relatively to Erick/RS “conservative in the primaries, republican in the general” rule – which proves to be, as some have always said, nonsensical. A bad idea that doesn’t even work. Not even him can follow it.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Operate, sure … but there is more to it than that.

    Where you show up on a ballot makes a non trivial difference in how many votes you get. Having major party status allows for a catch all for the straight ticket voters and those who are only marginally informed. If the CO Republican party loses this status then they get listed down with the minor parties. Better to be one of the big two in the long run.

    On the other hand, embracing this means embracing a Dem in the Govs mansion.

    So, the only options are to jump on a grenade by a.) voting Maes, thereby saving the Party it’s privileged status. b. uniting behind Tancredo to save the State from a Dem Gov.

    It’s a crap sandwich, the only question is which half would you like to bite off of.

  • http://www.2010blog.net jsanzone

    While, of course, beginning with the conservative-in-primary-republican-in-general guideline, then we’d be politically inept. Labels are important, but they’re certainly not everything.

  • pilgrim

    WFB said support the most conservative candidate who is electable in the primary. Well we are way past the primary where Tancredo had as much right as anyone else to run in it and he chose not to do it.

    Are there some establishment Republican wizards who now determine the electability for each contest in every district for the General? I do not believe WFB would support that kind of thinking.

    I don’t think a large enough number of Coloradans are going to vote for get Tancredo and get him elected, but enough of them can vote for Tancredo so that the Republican Party in Colorado will no longer be deemed to have majority party status in Colorado. That is bad news for US Senate races all the way down to State Rep. races.

  • Doc Holliday

    Tarp was a Bush thing, maybe he just believed what they told him. But your accusations are plenty, and you offer now supportive links or endnotes. I knew Delay, I knew Hastert, at least Hastert was trying to do right, I know that.

    You question Tancredo’s conservative bonafides, but I question yours. You seem to like to play the antagonist regardless of the subject at hand. Again I say, do you have a better alternative in this specific race? Or is this just typing to type?

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    I can’t stand the idiot (Maes, that is). Unfortunately, Tancredo isn’t any better. As a matter of fact, he’s worse.

    You guys that don’t live here didn’t see what Tancredo has become. I have, and I wouldn’t want him on my City Council, let alone in the Governor’s mansion.

  • cordpt

    Who else?

    This rule isn’t about the GOP. Buckley himself ran against the republican candidate in the elections for NY mayor. I don’t think he’d have much problems in voting for Tancredo – except that I doubt WFB would see Tancredo as a conservative.

    Anyway, I agree with the importance of reaching the majority party threshold. That alone would decide my vote. Maes is an horrible candidate, but Tancredo isn’t much better and his chances of winning are pretty similar anyway. I’d advise conservatives in Colorado to vote for future conservative candidates in this race.

  • cordpt

    Hahah. A socialist is a socialist is a socialist. “Trying to do right” is the excuse they always use. Anyway, as a matter of principle I don’t engage in conversations with persons that use ad hominem remarks.

  • Doc Holliday

    you know nothing about the man. You are just here to cause trouble. You think people here think you are more conservative than I am?

    as per ad homimems, I question your whole game here. I have seen enough to have serious reservations about your true goals. You are the one who called me out.

  • raider

    97.2 rating from American Conservative Union (ACU). He scored 100% from the ACU on seven separate occasions while serving in Congress.

    Tancredo achieved a score of 100% from the National Right to Life Committee for the 106th, 107th, 109th and the 110th Congress. The NARAL gave him a 0% score for the same sessions of Congress.

    During a May 3, 2007, GOP presidential debate when asked his stance on reproductive rights,Tancredo stated, “The reproductive choice part of that [question], if I heard you correctly, is a reference to abortion. The right to kill another person is not a right that I would agree with and support.” When asked if he would support a reversal of Roe v. Wade, he responded, “After 40 million dead because we have aborted them in this country, I would say that that would be the greatest day in this country’s history when that [Roe v. Wade], in fact, is overturned.”

    Tancredo voted in favor of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. The Act was challenged in federal court. On April 17, 2007, the United States Supreme Court affirmed the Act. Tancredo had this reaction: “Today the Supreme Court put an end to this barbaric practice of infanticide.” He further stated in response to the decision: “One can only hope this is the first step towards ending the tragedy of abortions.” His reaction to the decision also included this statement about Roe v. Wade: “I am pleased the Court has finally begun to address the moral and intellectual travesty of Roe vs. Wade”.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    is an absolute embarrassment to anybody who has an IQ of over 4.

    The guy should be locked in the attic like any other looneytoon old aunt or uncle. Frankly, no matter how many individual votes you want to flack, Tommy is someone who should be shunned out into the far reaches of the back yard.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Delaware by, maybe, Mike Castle?

  • Doc Holliday
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I remember digging into his America First PAC.

    Never mind that he took a domestic Nazi slogan from the 40s for the name of his PAC he set up with Bay Buchanan. Never mind that they prominently featured Pat Buchanan’s and Steve Sailer’s content on the page.

    But all that seemed to be done as though none of it were a big deal.

  • http://slcliberty.blogivists.com randy streu

    Look, if he’s not going to caucus with Republicans, if he’s not going to vote the right way on any of the important issues, then fine: Don’t send support. There are lots of decent candidates, and finite resources.

    But, handing the race to the Democrat seems like it’s counterproductive.

    Maybe it’s just me.

  • fortcollins

    A vote for principle is not possible in this race. Could’ve, would’ve, should’ve no longer matter in this race. We are stuck with a three-way race with a guaranteed result.

    Maes is an unelectable unethical mess. Tancredo is an intermittently-correct unelectable loon. Hickenlooper is a quirky leftist with a guaranteed win. None of the three candidates are worthy of a vote on principle.

    The only remaining issue is a vote for party, to retain the GOP’s major party status. I see it as a vote for a lot of exceptionally qualified, honest, conservative down-ballot candidates.

    After much wrestling with this, my family will line up, hold our noses, and vote for the GOP’s status. Then we will line up our barf bags and let loose.

    The next four years won’t be much fun here in CO. On the other hand, all of the neighboring states should be excited by the number of mom-and-pop businesses and quality employees that will be heading their way after being Demo-taxed into oblivion here.

    At least we will get Ken Buck and Cory Gardner elected.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Please point out where I said he couldn’t. Otherwise your comment has no point to it other than to be an ass.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    1. Came out of no where;
    2. Isn’t on point with ANY of the people who were being discussed in this cycle;

    my comment was much closer to the point than the Dede whatever it was. Speaking of being an ass…

    And just so I’m absolutely clear with respect to Erick, he has the absolute right as the site owner to support anyone for any reason and while my distaste for Tancredo is slightly greater than for bile, Erick appears to be making the the least horrible of what has to be the nastiest situation in the general contests. Although it would appear that since neither Tancredo or Maes has any shot of winning, the “moral victory” (or whatever) comes by Maes getting enough votes to hold the party position on the ballot.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I don’t feel like repeating myself just because you either didn’t get or didn’t read what I already wrote in this thread.

    As far as me brining up Dede out of no where goes, well, the conversation began as a dispute about the general site rule. Dede was the first exception so I thought it might have some bearing.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Surprisingly there isn’t much vocal opposition at this point. I guess all those Tea Party folks here are too busy looking for Obama’s birth certificate…

    (Said in jest, most of you know how passionate I am about local politics, and I get frustrated when people ignore local issues for state and national ones).

  • aesthete

    I’m not going to get into the Tancredo debate given my almost-absolute ignorance (and my steadfast determination to know as little as possible about Tancredo/Maes). However, one’s being pro-life is not a dis-qualifier to being socialist (see: Hugo Chavez).

  • fortcollins

    Hey now, it’s a 0.85% increase. Let’s not let them off the hook for that last .05%. We have the opportunity to vote for two amendments and an initiative to lower taxes and to reject two referred tax issues this year. We also have the opportunity to delete a gaggle of liberal activists from the state supreme court, although the Hickenlooper will just appoint more of the same.

    We’re guaranteed to win the assessor, treasurer, coroner, and clerk and recorder races. That isn’t surprising. Democrats don’t believe in taxing all fairly, so they don’t run for assessor. They don’t believe in balanced budgets, so they don’t run for treasurer. They don’t believe in protection of property rights, so they don’t run for clerk and recorder. And they believe dead people should vote, so they don’t run for coroner.