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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

What’s Missing

By: Erick Erickson (Diary)  |  January 11th, 2011 at 02:28 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

“Whether you believe it or not, here is the reality: beyond us is a world we cannot see with our eyes — a world of very real angels and very real demons, of a very real God and a very real devil. ”

I am tired of talking about the Arizona shooting. The left has done its best to try to pin it on the right. We know now that not only was Loughner of the left before he went nuts, but that, in fact, Loughner was nuts.

His actions can be pinned on neither the left nor the right.

All of the media handwringing over the “tone” in the country and the “extremist rhetoric” distracts from and implies that the tone and rhetoric had something to do with Jared Loughner’s rampage.

It did not.

By continuing to discuss this topic, the media continues to imply that it did.

We also know Barack Obama’s advisors are urging him to seize the moment and join the left in blaming the right for this violence. Not only is that disgusting, but should he, the media wringing their hands about the tone better call him out on it — but I won’t hold my breath.

Through it all though, well meaning people on both sides of the ideological and partisan divide are not talking about the one thing that should be talked about — a saving faith in Jesus Christ.

I am no saint. And I am no preacher. This is not intended to be a sermon. But it needs to be said and is not being said. Thankfully God is the God of the imperfect and all of us are.

In all the discussions we’re having, let’s not forget that bad things have happened throughout history, but we are seeing more and more a pattern of violence from those who reject Christ and we are seeing the most extreme rhetoric from those who reject the only real truth while embracing every other historic fad and nonsense as variations of truth. The one true way has been shunned, ridiculed, bastardized, co-opted, and buried over in psycho-babble nonsense, “find your own spirtual self” crap, and haphazard soul damning assorted other garbage.

For a taste of what I’m talking about, look at Timothy McVeigh. Raised a Catholic, McVeigh self-admitted that there was a god of some sorts, but that he was agnostic, had no belief in hell, and had drifted far from anything having to do with Jesus Christ. But the left routinely tries to portray McVeigh as some sort of Christian terrorist. They know not of what they speak.

The topic of faith in Christ makes people cringe. But whether you believe it or not, here is the reality: beyond us is a world we cannot see with our eyes. It impacts us on a daily basis. It is a world of very real angels and very real demons. It is a world of a very real God and a very real Satan, a very real Heaven and a very real Hell.

The back and forth and accusations and lies surrounding Jared Loughner should be a constant reminder to us that there is more at play in our world than what we see. And, frankly, at times like this I am more and more mindful of the great chasm in this world between the saved and damned.

Political rhetoric did not make Jared Loughner do what he did. His embrace of evil led him down a road down which we should be in constant prayer no others dare travel.

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COMMENTS

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  • redcometchar2010

    Erick, you said, “The one true way has been shunned, ridiculed, bastardized, co-opted, and buried over in psycho-babble nonsense, ?find your own spirtual self? crap, and haphazard soul damning assorted other garbage.” My question to you is, are you surprised?

    We were told this would happen. Remember what Christ told us, “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.” (John 10:18-21)

    I agree that there is more out there, but let none who follow Christ be shocked about what goes on here. We were told in advance.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    the gospel of Jesus Christ is an offense to those that don’t believe. While its the foundation of our lives we must not forget that is because we see the world through the Grace of God and his Holy Spirit while they can not. As such, we must continue to speak out but with patience and understanding as only a “remenent” will hear His call and follow Him.

  • mine

    But sadly can’t let up because the Left won’t. One can only hope Obama does jump into the issue so his own extreme violent rhetoric can be exposed. Fox were highlighting Democrat Joe Manchin election advertisements shooting at issues like cap and trade. No peep then from fellow Democrats, and no peep now. Their hypocrisy is breath taking.

  • pathfinder81601

    Greater is He (Jesus) that is in us than he (satan) that is in the world. We must overcome evil with good. Though they have grown up side by side in the same field, at harvest time, let the wheat be gathered into the barn and the tares….well, you know.

  • spainishirish

    The Right lets up much to quickly. This time, when undeniably angels are on its side, is not the time to let the devils go unanswered.

  • redneck_hippie

    provided of where our nation is, was provided by the audio of Christina Green’s mother eulogizing her lost child. Another thing that was on my mind is that the poor you shall have with you always. There are many ways of being poor. Far fewer ways of connecting with the infinite.

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    That’s what I was trying to get at yesterday. This shooting was not politically motivated; rather it was motivated by a loss of belief in meaning. Without Christianity or “religion”, a belief that our actions in life and the way we treat other human beings ultimately matter, the world would be a dark dark place.

    I also agree that this story is overexposed and will die down pretty quickly. The left is just starting to realize what a can of worms they have opened on themselves, and the right is tired of the left trying to make this about politics. The center is probably just tired of the fighting. Hopefully we can all get back to praying for and supporting the victims without regard to political ideology very soon.

  • plainsrabbit

    “…beyond us is a world we cannot see with our eyes. It impacts us on a daily basis. It is a world of very real angels and very real demons. It is a world of a very real God and a very real Satan, a very real Heaven and a very real Hell.”

    Eric, if you’re going to deny any connection between the narcissistic, paranoid delusions of Jared Loughner and your own style of thinking, you might want to avoid making narcissistic, paranoid, delusional statements about the magical world of Satan, demons as part of your defense. I know you’re a Christian, but the irony is just too much, even for you.

    Seriously, do you have one shred of evidence for your childlike, supernatural worldview beyond the fact that you really, really, really believe it? I mean, seriously – demons? Really? Are you living in the middle ages?

    No, nothing slightly delusional about believing in a world of invisible, magical, evil creatures that influence human beings.

    Here’s a tip: try familiarizing yourself with the modern science of paranoid schizophrenia. It might be enlightening, especially if you ever have to deal with a friend or family member who suffers from the condition . But you might have some growing up to do first. Good luck on your journey to rational adulthood.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    when anyone says “Really?” at the end of their statement, it means they are trying to be condescending and funny, but all it really means is they like repeating stupid trendy catch phrases of the day.

  • oblio

    troll cleanup on aisle 6

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • kachina30

    If your brain is wired incorrectly….you don’t have a loss of meaning! It’s a physical problem!
    This shooting is not about politics…no one is trying to say it is about politics. However, mentally ill people listen to radio or television too! When people in the public media or spotlight send hateful or demeaning messages…it does influence everyone, particularly a mentally ill person.

  • http://thecorruptworld.blogspot.com/ wayneinnh

    1 Corinthians 18 – 19

    18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
    ?I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.?

  • aesthete

    Yes, you are very tough and very intelligent. Also, very brave for speaking TRUTH 2 POWR!!!! We all see that. Now shoo.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    ban offensive music, movies, video games and the internet since they can get the same hatefull messages from those mediums? Seems like the better idea is take a more serious comprehensive approach to mentally ill people.

  • Raven

    From your post, I get the impression you Do have a family member who suffers from schizophrenia. I have had friends suffer from that condition and it is a truly terrible thing.
    It is more terrible still when you have nothing more substantial than “rationality” and “reason” to cling to. There is only so much your loved ones can do to help you carry that burden, for they carry it as well. And the best you can hope for is to be miserable together or to write out of your heart the suffering of one you once cared about.

    Only through God can this burden be lifted from your shoulders and he stands waiting with open arms to take it from off your soul. There is no need to cling to your suffering like a broken spar in a storm. Give it up to Him and live.
    Give your burden up to Him and you can help those you love even more with their burdens.

  • MrMosis

    These popular phrases of the day have driven me crazy (the sane kind) ever since childhood! It’s a shame too…. I find myself having to be mindful so as to not accidentally say the popular things. You might immediately look 25% more foolish if you employ such phrases at the time of their popularity.

    Same goes for clothing, too.

  • lineholder

    I was thinking earlier about the general description of Satan as “The Great Deceiver”. That’s who he is. Talk about giving the devil his due…Satan is very good at what he does. Never underestimate him.

    I lived a lot of years without comprehending the full context of the truth in this area of life. During those years, I left myself wide open to be deceived and to deceive myself on a lot of points. There was nothing about me that guarded my own soul.

    Then one day, God handed me enough of insight and discernment to see the truth for what it is. My whole life changed.

    Now, I can see through the eyes of faith the spiritual realm that you speak of.

    But for people who either don’t see the truth or choose to scoff at it….I know where they are, mentally and emotionally and spiritually, because I lived there myself for so long. It’s a dark life with no light.

    That’s all Jared Loughner had, isn’t it?

  • MrMosis

    include in your comments a disclaimer informing the reader of your a priori commitment to philosophical naturalism.

  • JSobieski

    Ever witness interspecies evolution?

    There are many things in science that we cannot see, but we nonetheless deduce their existence. Last time I checked, science does not have a monopoly on theory and belief.

    Part of being an adult is realizing how little you truly know. Your own words suggest that you have not yet reached adulthood.

  • aesthete

    It’s like banning The Gulag Archipelago because there are themes in the book not appropriate for children. We don’t restrict freedom to serve only the lowest common denominator.

  • jamo

    … there is a devil. He takes joy is our troubles and drags us down. Do not let the faithless take over, our freedom was hard won.

    If you don’t have God to believe in, your highest authority is the state, and you have no other recourse. That’s just what the demon wants.

  • commonsensecolorado

    Just like political rhetoric didn’t cause Loughner to murder people, either did his lack of Christianity. I know it’s hard for uber-Christians to believe, but non-religious people, and believers of other religions can be moral and good too. The reverse is also true, plenty of evil things have been done by professed Christians.

    “But whether you believe it or not, here is the reality: beyond us is a world we cannot see with our eyes. It impacts us on a daily basis. It is a world of very real angels and very real demons. It is a world of a very real God and a very real Satan, a very real Heaven and a very real Hell.”

    That statement makes no sense. Those things only exist for people who believe in them. Yes, there are things in the world that we can’t see, but as science advances, we discover more of them every day. There was a time where people thought that your actions and whether you were good or bad was responsible for illness. Once science advanced enough to see germs, we knew what really caused illness. People have long used believe in the supernatural or a God to explain away what they don’t understand.

    The real truth is that the guy is mentally ill and his own personal demons made him do it. Not the devil, not Sarah Palin, and not atheism.

  • conservativecurmudgeon

    …Not only do we not recognize evil for what it is, we don’t recognize it soon enough to keep it from consuming innocents.

    Our whole mid-20th-century-’till-now approach to helping the mentally ill is predicated on the presumption that there IS no evil, only varying degrees of personal choices, and thus, it cannot be recognized, and locked up behind protective bars until it is properly treated.

    There used to be mental institutions in which a calming environment was provided by the community, and where people could go to have the proper moral, spiritual, and mental diagnosis they needed to both protect the community, and find healing– behind locked and secure facilities.

    Until we banish the current mainstreamed-community based treatments for mental illness, we will continue to blame every environmental factor handy, and kill innocent folks, until society has had enough of accommodating the slaughter.

  • oblio

    Please think about the logic of that statement.

    Then click your heels.

  • furious

    ..for once, act ‘Presidential’, and be as circumspect about causes and motives as he was, say, about Ft. Hood, but…

    1. Skip Gates Arrest.
    2. Ground-Zero Mosque.
    3. Michael Vick’s Re-instatement.

    ..lead me to expect otherwise. Perhaps in more measured tones than Paul Krugman or Keith Olbermann, but otherwise, nonetheless. This is the “Oklahoma City” moment,for which certain senior Democrats were hoping..

  • alaskaescapeartist

    I can tell you talk about Christ doesn’t make me cringe. Condemning us to doom because we don’t believe a certain way may be a spiritual salve, but if I truly don’t know if I travel to heaven as an afterlife, or if I literally turn to dirt, shouldn’t be held against me.

    I respect and appreciate the comfort that many have in their faith. I’m quite comfortable as well.

    The heart of this matter is not whether someone has faith… it’s what they do with it. I’m in this life on my own recognizance, whether there is a judgment day or not.

  • Bobcat51

    has Rep, Peter King introduced gun control bill when we know the guy was a complete out of this world crazy fellow ?

    I never would believe after November a Republican would pander to Bloomberg., so disappointed in the Republicans who are going back to their old ways and so soon! .

  • Christine (Trelaina)

    I remember my first experience as a Sunday School teacher while I was in college. I was teaching 5th graders, and had one student who everyone told me was a huge problem. His parents didn’t care about church and just laid in bed while his grandfather picked him up every Sunday and brought him to church. He was a trouble maker.

    One Sunday, out of a clear blue sky, he said to me “I don’t believe in the story of Creation. I believe in the Big Bang”.

    I responded “how do you know they didn’t both happen”?

    His mouth dropped open. He had obviously never been challenged. After thinking about it, he told me he’d heard that there was one piece of the Big Bang theory that no one could explain.

    I’d given him something to think about. I’d given him a reason to perhaps believe in God. He never gave me a moment’s trouble in Sunday School that year…and I hope he considered that God works in his own ways, and those ways may be exactly the “science” we are seeing.

    I believe in both science and God. God controls the science that we see.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison
  • Superheater

    Plainsrabbit, if you?re going to deny any connection between the narcissistic, paranoid delusions of Jared Loughner and your own style of thinking, you might want to consider your own nihilism, and narcissistic, paranoid, delusional statements about the absence of magical world of Satan, demons as part of your defense. I know you?re not a Christian, but the irony is just too much, even for you.

    Seriously, do you have one shred of evidence for your childlike, materialist worldview beyond the fact that you really, really, really believe it? I mean, seriously – nothingness? Really? Are you living in the pleistocene?

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    see up thread

  • keepourrepublic

    It is as relevant to to talk about ?tone? and the ?extremist rhetoric? as it is to talk about Jesus. In doing so you seem to be presuming that in order to be a moral person and not be a lunatic then a person must be Christian, but this is not so.

    Not all Conservatives are Christians you know. When you talk about non-Christians in disparaging ways you are by default talking about other people in the conservative movement as well.

    Moral relativists? Nihilists? Yeah, they’re all on the other side. Beat them up all you want.

    Non-Christians? there you start painting with too broad of a brush. There’s Non-Christians on both sides.

    So answer me this: How exactly is it helpful to the Conservative Movement to drive a wedge between those in the Conservative Movement who are Christian and those in the Conservative Movement who are not?

    As a Precinct Committeeman I will bow my head slightly during prayer at Committee Meetings because I respect the other people in the room and want to show them consideration. Prayer is important to many members of my committee, and I’ll not begrudge them that. I am very positive about the good Christianity can be for an individual in helping them become a better person. If that’s what works for them then that’s what works for them.

    I keep my head down on the topic of religion because what unites us within the Conservative Movement are principles. It doesn’t matter where we think these principles originate. What matters is that we agree upon them.

    There’s nothing wrong with fellow Conservatives talking up Christianity, but when my fellow Conservatives decide it’s a good idea to start bashing non-Christians, well, there’s this a little thing called civility.

    Kindly don’t throw mud at your allies.

    Thanks.

  • deevee

    We all need Jesus Christ. A man or woman without Him is so very lost and dysfunctional.

    Thank you for speaking the truth.

  • alaskaescapeartist

    thanks “keepourrepublic”.

    It’s our sense of right and ideas of what makes a better _______ (fill in the blank; country, society, world….) that bonds us here.

    If this were a dinner party, we already break one of the important rules by discussing politics…. no sense in breaking the other one.

  • alaskaescapeartist

    I am sincerely happy that we are both happy in our faith or lack thereof, however, your statements are neither patient or understanding.

  • Locked and Loaded

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Romans 1:16-32

    —

    Jesus Christ is the author of all that is good and moral. That is not changed by whether one – even a good and moral one – chooses to acknowledge Him.

  • runner12

    The way that I interpreted it was a reflection upon good and evil in our society.

    I don’t believe it was to say that you have to be a Christian to be good or moral, it was to point out that evil does exist in this world. A belief in evil is something foreign to many people. But I think one only has to look at the events of 9/11 and the tragedy over the weekend to come to the conclusion that there is evil out there.

    I know that many Christian beliefs are hard to swallow. I could spend pages going through an apologetic discourse on Christianity, but I prefer the personal explanation. All I know is who I was before Christ and who I am after. I can tell you without hesitation that I greatly prefer the latter rather than the former.

    BTW I also do not believe that anyone is equating mental illness to a spiritual problem. Several people I know who are Christians have struggled with mental illness. The shooter just happened to have both a spiritual problem and a mental illness, which resulted in catastrophe and destruction.

  • runner12

    The way that I interpreted it was a reflection upon good and evil in our society.

    I don’t believe it was to say that you have to be a Christian to be good or moral, it was to point out that evil does exist in this world. A belief in evil is something foreign to many people. But I think one only has to look at the events of 9/11 and the tragedy over the weekend to come to the conclusion that there is evil out there.

    I know that many Christian beliefs are hard to swallow. I could spend pages going through an apologetic discourse on Christianity, but I prefer the personal explanation. All I know is who I was before Christ and who I am after. I can tell you without hesitation that I greatly prefer the latter rather than the former.

    BTW I also do not believe that anyone is equating mental illness to a spiritual problem. Several people I know who are Christians have struggled with mental illness. The shooter just happened to have both a spiritual problem and a mental illness, which resulted in catastrophe and destruction.

  • froster

    nt

  • dlieb

    I think it is in very bad taste for you to use the attempted assassination of a Jewish Congresswoman to prosthelitize the embracing of Christ.

    What exactly are you trying to say? She wouldn’t be lying in ICU had she embraced Christianity.

    Absolutely. Horrible. Taste.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    what you are saying. I was answering what Erick posted, not making a sand alone statement.

  • streiff

    prevents Early Onset Asshattery but it is really worth a try.

  • zollistar

    …writes sensibly and wisely about Christianity in THE WAY THE WORLD IS: THE CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE OF A SCIENTIST.

    This is not to say that there is nothing to be learned from the modern science of paranoid schizophrenia, btw. There is, however, a great deal to learn about Christianity using science’s bracing structures and ways of thinking as described by Dr, Polkinghorn in this and other books he has written on the subject that has always been central to his life.

    Thanks for bringing up the subject, Eric. Plainsrabbit, thank you for your exasperated comment.

  • oblio

    And need His salvation as much as the Gentiles. I find it odd that anyone would take offense to the preaching of the Gospel regardless of the faith of one of the victims.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    took me a while to understand what you are saying, are you saying someone who doesnt believe you dont find the gospel of Jesus offensive? Because if so, I have to wonder if you know what the full gospel states? Most people I know, including myself, find it offensive, at least at first.

  • gmscan

    Dr. Francis S. Collins is one of the foremost scientists of our era. He headed up the Human Genome Project and is currently running the National Institute of Health. He was an atheist as a young adult until a Methodist minister gave him a copy of ?Mere Christianity? by C.S. Lewis. He writes:

    “In the next few days, as I turned its pages, struggling to absorb the breadth and depth of the intellectual arguments laid down by this legendary Oxford scholar, I realized that all of my own constructs against the plausibility of faith were those of a schoolboy.”

    His book, ?The Language of God,? explains how science and faith are not incompatible. Quite the opposite, they each support and inform the other, and the work of God can be seen in our scientific discoveries.

    Plainsrabbit’s argument is adolescent.

    Greg Scandlen

  • alaskaescapeartist

    but your entire response seems to be a series of stand alone statements.

    “We have to remember that the gospel of Jesus Christ is an offense to those that don?t believe.” – No it’s not. I can tell you first hand that this assumption is patently false. I don’t care about Christianity.

    “While its the foundation of our lives we must not forget that is because we see the world through the Grace of God and his Holy Spirit while they can not.” – Seems like a statement to me, and who the heck are “they”. Agnostics like me?

    “As such, we must continue to speak out but with patience and understanding as only a ?remenent? will hear His call and follow Him.” – Not a statement? Sounds like spiritual triage… only a few will make it.

    Erick’s points offer some insight to his own personal approach to things, and that’s great, but my view of things is not provably less correct than his or yours. Contrary to the thread title, I am not missing anything.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    the offended part. You say you are not offended by the gospel because you dont care about it, I would say if you hear it, it will offend you which is all I was saying.

  • marshmom

    are easier prey for evil. Christians should never condemn a non-Christian and I don’t think you’ll find anyone here who will condemn you for your lack of faith in Jesus Christ. We, by faith, are taught to love everyone even if we disagree with what they do.

    As believers in Jesus Christ, we ache for souls that are not yet saved, we don’t think that being self righteous is a “spiritual salve”. It is not our place to judge lost souls, but to help save them. Therefore, I will pray for you and pray that through this tragedy, there are more souls who find salvation in Christ.

  • eburke
  • alaskaescapeartist

    don’t affect me on any emotional level. I know what they say, I don’t believe in them.

    This thread suggested that “what is missing” is a faith in Christ. Your statement suggested that you either believe in the Gospels, or are offended by them. My point was merely that those assumptions are false.

    And by the way, anyone who goes by the handle “Goldwater Conservative” is top drawer in my book.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    you dont have the right to believe what you want and take it how you want, but the part of the gospel that I’m reffering to is that we are all sinners and fallen short of the glory of God (thefefore deserving punishment). Thats offensive and its not generally accepted by most people.

  • runner12

    want to go back and reread it. This was not even about Rep. Giffords or her faith. To say so is simply inaccurate at best and disingenuous at worst.

    This was simply a perspective on the good and evil that exists in this world from a Christian perspective.

    P.S. Both the Jewish faith and the Christian faith acknowledge the presence of good and evil in the world. The good being God and evil being the devil.

  • alaskaescapeartist

    And the religious/philosophical debate is pointless… but unfortunately, was the basis of this thread.

  • http://eric-lee.net Eric Lee

    First off let me say thank you for posting this, Erick. You’ve made me think about this tragedy from another perspective.

    I am also a Christian, and I’m grieving with and praying for all of those touched by this tragedy. I have broken down and cried more because of the lives taken because of Loughner than I did on 9/11. My hope and prayer is that people will learn about the lives taken and see how brief and fragile life truly is.

  • leftwing

    The main idea, if I understand it, is that immoral behavior is a big problem in the worlld, and a greater problem that partisan bickering. In some sense, I think that many progessives would agree with that idea. There are venal people on the left, venal people on the right, and lots of troublemakers with no particular political views.

    As for blame for the shooting, no one will know what put him over the edge. And it does not matter in certain ways. Even if it could be proved that some rightwing or leftwing rhetoric did, in fact, put him over, that does not shift the blame from the shooter. On the other hand, even if could be proved that rightwing or leftwing rhetoric had nothing at all to do with the shooting, violent rhetoric is dangerous and wrong. All dehumanizing and violent imagery is wrong, in my view, even if it does not directly prompt assassinations.

    The part of Mr. E’s post that confuses me is the part about real devils and real angels. I assume that Mr. E means in a place that is not Earth. (Mr. E said that they cannot be seen.) I assume that Mr. E means that a lack of faith, a devotion to selfishness or evil, is the real manifestation of the other worldly stuff.

    But, really, I am not sure. Maybe Mr. E would think it is patronizing of me to assume that. Maybe Mr. E thinks that devils walk among us. Real ones; not born to mortals, etc.

    That would make me cringe a little, I admiit, as Mr. E suggested.

    Are you saying the shooter is a real devil? Or ever met one?

    It is dangerous, in my view, to see any person as an actual devil. We might treat a devil as we would never treat a person.

  • alaskaescapeartist

    but by calling me “lost”, you judge. By saying I am easy prey for evil, you judge.

  • lapert

    With all due respect. us Jews need no salvation from Jesus. And while I take no more offense to you preaching it than I do the odd posthumous’baptism’ of Jews by Mormons – and I take it just as seriously, as in little to none I hope you take no offense when I point out that belief that Jesus is the son of god is a violation of the second commandment for Jews and arguably a violation of the first noachide law for non-Jews.

    But this is a political, not theological, site so I also know this difference of religious perspectives doesn’t matter – or at least it didn’t used too unless the Editor of the site is changing that perspective and now wants to purge non-Christian conservatives from the shared fight for conservative politics in this country.

    I got to say, I find this post by Erick odd in the context of the broader goals and tone that this site has tried to set.

  • bcochran1981

    those aren’t judgments. Just simply descriptors.

  • littlehouse18

    we took a field trip to a state mental hospital. It was a horrible place, nothing calming or healing about it. I still shudder to think about it. I don’t know what the answer is. Many people who have done no wrong have been shut away, some misdiagnosed and receiving incorrect, poor treatment. Few would want to work there; it was much worse than a nursing home

    I’m sure things are somewhat better now, with all the medicines that have come along, but this is a very difficult question. The mentally ill are still human beings.

    I’m not absolving Loughner, he knew he was committing an evil act, even if he was a lunatic.

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    You took the same route I briefly considered–and dropped, when I saw you had begun–with probing aea’s use of “offended” in light of the “offense of the cross”.

    I would just add that, at least under a Protestant/Reformed/Evangelical hermeneutic, the phrase points to something even beyond what you have described. To be more precise, people indeed frequently take offense at hearing the truth “that we are all sinners and fallen short of the glory of God (therefore deserving punishment)”–though they may be more likely to be so offended in a culture such as ours which minimizes and externalizes sin due to our trivialization of the holiness of God than cultures in which the knowledge of real guilt is more pervasive.

    But that offense, technically, is not the main part of the “offense of the cross” of Galatians 5:11 and alluded to in John 6:61, Romans 9:33 and 1 Peter 2:8. The offense at being found short of God’s holiness recalls Cain’s second complaint, “My punishment is greater than I can bear”; it hates the thoroughness with which one is convicted by the pure Law of God, but it falls short of the even more egregious offense which accompanies the Good News of the Gospel of Christ.

    The offense of the cross is its revelation–found only in the Word of God–that not only is our sin guilty of God’s eternal punishment, but our presumed righteousness is damnable as well, since God saves sinners through the righteous sacrifice of Christ alone rather than by any meritorious act of our own, such merit being completely absent across all of humanity. This was Cain’s first complaint, that God preferred another sacrifice–of another’s blood, notably–to that of his hard-earned produce; it is the same complaint that led many Jews to value their ceremonial observance above the inherent and proven righteousness of the Lawgiver himself, and many Greeks to prefer the philosophers to the Logos, and many good moral people today to demean the full saving office of the Son of God,preferring instead their own presumed, inherent righteousness. If you doubt the latter, see what happens when you tell some of them that the grace of God is no more hindered from saving a liberal than a conservative.

    “Then is the offense of the cross ceased.” Willingly does Paul, in speaking of the gospel, call it the cross, or the preaching of the cross, when he wishes to bring its poor, simple style, into contrast with the “great swelling words” (Jude 1:16) of human wisdom or righteousness. For the Jews, puffed up with an ill-founded confidence in their righteousness, and the Greeks, with a foolish belief of their wisdom, despised the meanness of the gospel. (Calvin, Commentary on Galatians 5:11)

  • Locked and Loaded

    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

  • Locked and Loaded

    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

  • keepourrepublic

    To your points:

    ? One doesn’t have to be Christian to understand that there is good and evil and I wouldn’t be opposed to a reflection upon good and evil within our society. But Erick was talking about God and Satan, Angels and Demons. Definitions of good and evil get a lot more complicated when talking within the context of Christianity. He did not make a distinction between “those who reject Christ” who are within the Conservative Movement and those without. There is evil out there. And Erick need not bring up Christianity to prove it so.

    ? I happy for you. Christianity has helped you become a better person and as I said above if that?s what works for you then that?s what works for you. I care more about the fact that you are a better person then the cause of you being so.

    ? Ah, Erick kinda explicitely said the following:

    “we are seeing more and more a pattern of violence from those who reject Christ and we are seeing the most extreme rhetoric from those who reject the only real truth while embracing every other historic fad and nonsense as variations of truth. The one true way has been shunned, ridiculed, bastardized, co-opted, and buried over in psycho-babble nonsense, ?find your own spirtual self? crap, and haphazard soul damning assorted other garbage.”

    As a non-Christian I think by default I fall into any Christians’ definition of “those who reject Christ”. Further, I believe in individual liberty, individual sovereignty, and I hold the Constitution to be sacred, but none of these is the “one true way” according to Erick. I could assume he includes this in “assorted other garbage”, but I would prefer to think he got carried away. I would venture to say that he conflates principles of liberty, individual sovereignty, and the Constitution with his God. I would say that he also forgot that other people could hold these ideas in high esteem without conflating them with his God.

    Others on this thread have equated a lack of Christianity with a spiritual problem as well. deevee below said “We all need Jesus Christ. A man or woman without Him is so very lost and dysfunctional.” Lack of Christianity = spiritual problem.

    I know, accept, and understand that many Christians will take their own personal experience of not being able to find direction without Jesus and presume that no one can find a direction without Jesus.

    I know, accept, and understand that many Christians will believe that I and those like me are lost and dysfunctional for “shunning” the “one true way”.

    I know, accept, and understand that many Christians will SAY that I and those like me are lost and dysfunctional for “shunning” the “one true way”.

    And that’s no skin off of my back because they are free to believe and say whatever they like.

    But I would take it as a kindness if those Christians within the Conservative Movement would refrain from saying so to the faces of non-Christians and to refrain from any backstabbing that may be inspired by our lack of the same faith.

    Allies remember? Lets keep our republic first. If after we we keep our republic those same Conservative Christians want to throw down then I might be persuaded to oblige, but until then we have bigger fish to fry, don’t you think?

  • conservativecurmudgeon

    Only less worse ones.

    While the old stereotypical images of a mental hospital are awful, as an alternative, we’ve allowed millions of clearly mentally unstable folks to wander around, when they clearly are a danger to themselves, and to others.

    Regular hospitals were hardly the Ritz forty or fifty or sixty years ago, either; but, at the turn of the last century, great strides were made in the realm of the treatment of mental illness in institutional settings. These institutions were not untypically placed in rural, quiet surroundings–not out of a desire to segregate, but to provide a calming atmosphere.

    As time went on, the places fell into disrepute and disrepair. It needn’t have been thus.

    A new incarnation of this would be quite appropriate: It has to be better than allowing these folks to hurt not only themselves, but others, as well, out in the general population.

  • Superheater

    Needed to point out just how silly it is to be devoted to nothing..

    Pascal proved that was illogical..

  • jeffreywturner

    Every person needs Jesus to save them from their sins.

    Neither your ethnicity nor your previous religious affiliation are relevant to your salvation.

    You may refuse to believe in this of course, which is your right. You may also refuse to believe in the IRS, but when they come to throw you in jail for not paying your taxes, I don’t think you are going to get away by saying “I didn’t believe in the IRS”. By the same token, saying you didn’t think you needed Jesus will not get you off the hook with God when the final judgment comes.

    One day your eyes WILL be opened to the true Messiah. Your only choice in the matter is whether it happens before or after you face the judgement. For your soul, I hope you choose before.

    God Bless You

  • Superheater

    The whole story is that we do seem to have a propensity to do wrong.

    Whether its petty theft, or murderous violence, its always been that way, always will be. Show me a “perfect society” and I will show you an atheist totalitarian state bludgeoning the individuality and dignity from its masses. Despite the “religious left”, a Christian should understand that collectivization will never work, because despite all the claims of secular Utopians, it doesn’t exist.

    This is why the left is so invested in this narrative of “rhetoric”, part is political expediency, but part is a desperate need to attach any explanation to this-when there is only one-that this individual is deranged-but look at his mug shot-the smug smile is evil.

  • Superheater

    And I’ll bet she’d be going about her business if Loughner had embraced Judaism, instead of Marx and Pot.

    Also, there was a successful assassination of a judge and several others, at least one, the youngest was Christian, doesn’t that count if the faith of the victim matters?

  • Superheater

    And if Mr. Loughner had embraced Judaism instead of Pot and Marx, not only would Ms. Giffords be fine, others would be ALIVE.

    If the faith of the victim matters, then take into account the faith of the DEAD, at least one was Christian, the little one.

    I feel great sympathy for Ms. Giffords, she has a long road to travel to get back to “normal”, but I suspect this will be a permanent scar.

    On the other hand, why is it the dead were so soon forgotten. I know the left would like to forget them, it breaks their narrative, but nobody shoots a grade-schooler over politics.

  • jeffreywturner

    All too often we look for these obscure reasons for tragedies. We try so hard to diagnose some kind of hidden systemic problem with a fancy scientific-sounding name, when in reality, we are simply facing evil.

    Why is it so hard for us to just call a spade a spade and say we are dealing with evil?

    This is a broken world and we are broken people who do terrible things to God, to each other and to all of the things God has entrusted to us because we want to have life our way instead of the way God has prescribed for us to live.

    Even still, we know how to overcome all of this. The redeeming power of our Lord Jesus Christ knows no bounds. We can pass and enforce all of the laws we want, but at some point we must begin to change people’s hearts, and this will only happen if they come to know Christ.

  • zollistar

    is so significant, that Harvard’s Professor Armand M. Nicholi wrote a book on the subject by that title.

    In THE QUESTION OF GOD, Dr, Nicholi provides a remarkable insight into the lives and thinking of Sigmund Freud and C.S. Lewis. Both were atheists but eventually through a long process of thought, reading and experience, Lewis abandoned his long-held atheism. Freud never did.

    What many don’t know is that Lewis’s conversion to belief was one of the most depressing, unhappy-making experiences of his life. His experience of Christianity didn’t remain that way, of course, but it definitely began that way.

    Nicholi’s exploration of the two men’s thinking and the lives they lived, influenced as they were by their respective beliefs, is compelling, some might even say riveting. The author doesn’t suggest what the reader should conclude or believe. Every reader will make up his or her mind.

    Thank you for mentioning Dr. Collins’ book, Greg. I plan to read it. Your mention reminded me of Dr. Nicholi’s book. Maybe some readers here will likewise find THE QUESTION OF GOD to be of real interest. I hope so

  • Prodigal

    Are you saying that the Devil made Jared to it? Does that exonerate the pious Right and leave worldly, unchurched to blame?

    “In all the discussions we?re having, let?s not forget that bad things have happened throughout history, but we are seeing more and more a pattern of violence from those who reject Christ and we are seeing the most extreme rhetoric from those who reject the only real truth while embracing every other historic fad and nonsense as variations of truth.”

    What about the pattern of violence that we have seen in those that embrace Christ? Why is their extreme rhetoric supposed to be easier to reconcile?

    “..pull out my wife’s shotgun and see how that little ACS twerp likes being scared of the door. They’re not coming on my property.”

    “Thank God for 9/11″ “Thank God for IEDs”

    The simple possession of “a saving faith in Jesus Christ” isn’t enough.

  • voicefromthevoid

    Why not “In God we trust, if you don’t – leave for China!”

  • leftwing

    you do not really think the form is a “roaring lion,” right?

    and you do not think the devil is devouring people, physically, in the streets, right?

    I am curious about what you believe

  • Raven

    About a thousand years ago or so.

    One can not be without the other.

  • palolojo

    The Devil tempts man, but man ultimately makes the choice. What pattern of violence by Christians are you taking about?

  • palolojo

    Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    We are seeing more of this than ever before.

  • yweffingnitemare

    …stick to the facts? For the most part, I enjoy your writing and agree with you Erick, but when you start banging your Bible, I get intellectual chills. You can NOT purport God to be fact. You can hold it up as an ideal, you can believe in it, but you can NOT hold it up as fact, or as you stated, “the one true way.”

  • frostproof

    Erick, I too agree with most of your posts, but advocating that Christianity is “the one true way” is no different than advocating that Islam is “the one true way.” The world would be a much MUCH better place if that one word in the bible had been translated “wholeness” (all inclusive) instead of “holiness” (all others exclusive). Controlling others is just plain wrong, and religion is nothing but a way to control others. If everybody except those who believe as you do are going to hell, then why do you even care? Because converting others to your way of thinking or your “belief system” makes you think, maybe you’re on the right track. To end on a slightly lighter note, Ambrose Bierce defined Christian as “One who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ insofar as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin,” and Mark Twain wrote “If Christ were here now, there is one thing he would not be—a Christian.”

  • frostproof

    How about the inquisition? I mean, just for starters. And how about that annoying little pastor who drags his congregation around the United States to protest at funerals (which he planned to do at the funeral in Tucson of a little 9 year old girl). Now THAT guy should be handed over to a group of really ticked-off Muslims.

  • lapert

    No, no person needs Jesus. In fact, as I said, belief in Jesus as christ is itself a sin for Jews (it is a violation of God’s commandments) and arguably so for all.

    You may refuse to believe in this of course, which is your right. You may also refuse to believe in the IRS, but when they come to throw you injail for not paying your taxes, I don’t think you are going to get away bu saying “I didn’t believe in the IRS”. By the same token, saying you thought Jesus was the son of God will not get you off the hook with God when your days on this earth are over.

    Sorry, I don’t just not believe in your theology I think it is false, you follow a false messiah and will face God’s judgment accordingly.

    But alas, that should be irrelevant at this site as our goal here is to unite around a political point of view – not a theological one.

    God bless you.

  • nhbuckeye

    For those of us who know God, it is impossible for us relegate Him to simply an ideal or a possibility. I know God exists the same way I know the sun exists. Just as it would be insane for me to deny the sun’s existence it would be far more so to deny God’s existence. Your personal lack of recognition of God should not rule over all others. Your demand that we use language that fits your opinion is strongly reminiscent of the similar demands made by Progressives. Furthermore, there can only be one true way. Truth as a matter of definition is exclusive.

  • cam1

    Christ is a fact and the Bible you say he is banging is a fact. And, your intellectual chills show what a snob you can be at times. Whether you believe in Christ and in Holy Scripture, or not, is your business. It is interesting that ones profession of a belief in God gives you “intellectual chills”. Wow …

  • nhbuckeye

    CincoSolas_del_Bronx –> bravo!!

  • streiff

    is hardly an argument. Even if I grant you your rather grotesque understanding of the Inquisition, do you really want to compare it with instances of institutional atheism like Stalin’s USSR or Mao’s China?

  • streiff

    could have been easily avoided. Let that be a lesson to everyone.

  • runner12

    believe, but yet you take such offense when people state their beliefs as Erick did. If you support peoples right to “say whatever they like,” why are you criticizing Erick for doing so on a site that he is the leader of?

    If you don’t believe you are “lost” then why does it bother you when someone states this? You can’t be offended by what you don’t believe in. The same goes for Erick’s definition of good and evil.

    My main point was that there was no cry to boot out all of the non-Christians from the conservative movement and you more than implied that this was the case.

    There were many of our forefathers who shared different beliefs. Some were Christians, some were not. I am sure that on more than one occasion the Christians shared their faith with the non-Christians. This did not cause a rift and our nation was still formed. Tolerance goes both ways my friend.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    the gospel, even the restoration process, is offensive because you are the offender and you are not the one who can rectify the offense, you are incapable of repaying for your offense. I was just trying to keep it simple as I didnt think ala wanted to go into the deep meaning of it.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    All Christians are apparently personally responsible for the violent acts of all other Christian groups throughout history, but all other groups are able to dismiss the extreme violent acts of their own because they aren’t personally like them.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    not only is this offensive to the common man, its alien to our way of thinking and its contrary to the way we conduct ourselves in society. When you do something wrong, its incumbent on you to rectify it.

  • runner12

    the name of Christ, but all true Christians would say in those instances that those people were not influenced by Christ.

    There is a difference between being a Christian and being religious. In the case of the Inquisition, it was the defense and worship of a denomination that led people to those atrocities, not a saving faith in Christ. The Protestants are not off the hook either, there have been plenty of bad things done in the name of God by us as well.

    As to the Westboro folks, all true Christians consider those people to be evil and not of the Christian faith. In fact, many actually consider them to the be influenced by the Devil. That may sound kooky to you, but I believe it. How else can you explain people who would rejoice at the murder of a 9 year-old girl? If that is not pure evil, I don’t know what is.

  • ronlsb

    Surely you can disbelieve in an immutable God and fixed moral laws that are binding for all men for all time as revealed in Scripture, but please be honest with yourself as you reject this truth. Your worldview leaves you with NO fixed moral laws other than what you or those in power in a given nation at a given time decreel. Can you not see the dangers of this worldview? Such an atheistic worldview gave us Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and the deaths of hundreds of millions of people in the last century alone. You are kidding yourself to think such leaders won’t or can’t arise in this country as well if we as a nation move from our founding decleration that all our rights come from God, not man. Think about it!

  • ronlsb

    Surely you can disbelieve in an immutable God and fixed moral laws that are binding for all men for all time as revealed in Scripture, but please be honest with yourself as you reject this truth. Your worldview leaves you with NO fixed moral laws other than what you or those in power in a given nation at a given time decreel. Can you not see the dangers of this worldview? Such an atheistic worldview gave us Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and the deaths of hundreds of millions of people in the last century alone. You are kidding yourself to think such leaders won’t or can’t arise in this country as well if we as a nation move from our founding decleration that all our rights come from God, not man. Think about it!

  • proudmarinemom

    .

  • Wayne

    All due respect to Erick and redcommetcatcher.

    As a Christian I believe one cannot ignore or blame insanity on “evil”. Real evil exist, but to see it in every action is to ignore the God given ability to utilize sound logic and reasoning as we navigate through a world we “do not belong to”.

    “Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that makes it difficult to tell the difference between real and unreal experiences, to think logically, to have normal emotional responses, and to behave normally in social situations.”

    To blame the insane action in Arizona on “evil” as we know it is to abandon our Christian ethos of love, compassion, understanding empathy and forgiveness. Tenants our Lord and savior challenged us to sustain every day.

    Whether I am of this world or not, I am in the world and cannot lose sight of the fact that sane logic and reasoning are a challenge for each of us every day of our lives, Christian or not.

    Your comments while well meaning perhaps, do not acknowledge that there are good non Christians and there are bad Christians that do horrible things.

    As a Christian, I am compelled to challenge your statement as being poorly thought out and communicated in a public forum that others will form opinions of what Christianity is and those that believe and try to live up to our lords challenge knowing we could never do it. His forgiveness extends to us all. You should know this and it surprises me that you don’t seem to.

    If you want to talk about evil, perhaps it would be useful to associate every single person that came across that poor struggling soul and did nothing to help him,. Too busy with their own lives to reach out to someone in real trouble. In that one could see true “evil” at work.

    I believe you missed the point of John 10:18:-21.

    My two cents?.

  • streiff

    in this exchange.

    If you want to establish your credentials as an idiot you are well on the way to doing so.

  • streiff

    that cuts both ways. I’d also point out that God is probably not going to look very kindly on those who say “I don’t believe in Trinitarian theology.”

    But thanks for playing anyway.

  • streiff

    no one has ever witnessed evolution in vertebrates or a quantum reaction yet we accept those things exist. The fact that you don’t believe in something is no more of an argument than those made by your typical Flat Earther.

  • ontap

    The consequences of a progressive secular society and an individual bereft of morality and apathetic to civil law led to the tragedy that transpired in Tucson on January 8th. Progressives wrap themselves around the mantra of collective inclusion and discount the notion that an individual is responsible for their actions or the lack thereof. The progressives are adamant that the state has the means and the right to determine every aspect of an individual?s existence. In the case of the miscreant that committed this tragedy, an overreach of political correctness and wanton litigation prevented his confinement. In the immediate moments after this tragedy, instead of analyzing and creating a stratagem to help prevent such actions in the future, progressives lashed out at those that do not subscribe to their doctrine and demanded politicians to further restrict the rights of American citizens. The secularists have dismantled, albeit piece by piece, any inference of religious orientated morality. Along with progressives, secularists deem the rule of law to be derived from the state. Progressives and secularists fail to realize that when an individual can discount moral repercussions for their actions, civil law cannot compete. Even with those that have no religious beliefs, there is an embedded sense of morality that is derived from societal mores. Everyone has either resisted or acquiesced to the rule of civil laws. An adherence to morality, not civil consequences determines the extent of one?s transgression. Everyone has a tolerance level that can supersede civil repercussions. The miscreant that perpetrated this tragedy removed himself from the tenets of morality and completely disregarded the penalties that would be imposed by civil law. One only need to look to recent history when a progressive society, embolden by the civil auspices of statist government bereft of morality, committed a genocide called the Holocaust

  • Jackal4444

    that both positions are belief structures, neither being more demonstrably proveable or disproveable than the other, and therefore it would be ungracious (and somewhat totalitarian) for jeffreywturner to insist lapert accept Jesus Christ for his salvation. As a Baptist, I always find such absolute certainty circumspect.

  • streiff

    your view is that acting as a missionary is “ungracious”? Surely even Baptists have heard of the Great Commission and have read the Gospel of John. Either you believe in those or you believe Christianity is some kind social club.

  • redcometchar2010

    Firstly, who is redcommetcatcher? It would be nice to see a guy on here with a similar tag as mine and I would love to read his post. However, if you were responding to MY post let me clear up a few misconceptions you might have had. I was responding only to Erick’s quote, “The one true way has been shunned, ridiculed, bastardized, co-opted, and buried over in psycho-babble nonsense, ?find your own spirtual self? crap, and haphazard soul damning assorted other garbage.” MY post was talking about how Christians and Christianity get shunned and ridiculed and that Erick shouldn’t be surprised that this occurs. MY post made no comment on Loughner or any other actions committed by anybody else. Of course what the shooter did was horrible and I would wager that you would agree with THAT sentiment. I made no effort to extend any of my remarks to anything else related to the shooting. So feel free to be critical of Erick’s comments and mine, but PLEASE know what I’m talking about (which I think was pretty clear) before you lump me in with him.

    Sincerely yours,
    Red(as in the color Red)comet(as in Haley’s)char(as in really burnt or a character from Mobile Suit Gundam)2010(the number before 2011 and after 2009)

  • lapert

    And thank you for playing as well.

    It does cut both ways and is why theological debates originating from different belief structures rarely end with consensus. We can continue to point it out to each other but I doubt either of us is ever going to accept the assertion of the other on this.

    Which brings to my major point here – this is not a theological forum and in the past the forum has avoided going down that road because it can interfere with the shared goal of brining conservative principles to our government. Why choose this moment to change that tone?

  • jbben

    I’d like to hear your exegsis of John 10:18-21. What is it that Erik missed? The text reads:
    (Jesus speaking) “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” At these words the Jews were again divided. Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?” But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
    It seems to me that you are the kind of Christian who embraces every “nice” verse of the Bible, but who avoids the verses that proclaim God’s holiness and justice. He is the supreme Judge and avenges evil. There are two sides: Evil (Satan and our own sinful nature) and God (his love, justice, holiness and hatred of evil). How about Isaiah 13:11 “I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.” We need to see God in awe of all of His aspects. THANK YOU, ERIK! You are brave.

  • YnotNOW

    No, I’m not surprised. I’ve read the end of the Book, and although the end is really, really good, things will get a whole lot worse before they get good.

    So, no, I’m not surprised at all.

  • YnotNOW

    No, I’m not surprised. I’ve read the end of the Book, and although the end is really, really good, things will get a whole lot worse before they get good.

    So, no, I’m not surprised at all.

  • runner12

    koomba-ya-ish either (talking about following a “false” Messiah and facing God’s judgement and all). If you feel that the tone is divisive, then why join the debate? After all, you chose to jump on a two sentence statement from oblio.

    If you were attempting to defend dlieb’s comments, I think you may want to re-read them, they were pretty outrageous.

  • jeffreywturner

    They are both belief structures, but one point of view has more supporting evidence than the other.

    The evidence supporting the assertion of Jesus as Messiah far outweighs the evidence to the contrary. You may disagree with this, but this belief is based on documents more well attested than any others from antiquity.

  • streiff

    you are just unfamiliar with this site. This type of post is pretty common. If you’re offended, I don’t know what to tell you.

  • lapert

    The dangers in a world view that sees all morals as fixed in a point of time, revealed in a book that is transcribed and interpreted by man? Have you seen no leaders emerge from Christiandom that have used that posture to cause many deaths and destruction (is volume really the measure of evil?)? Was slavery a moral evil throughout most of Christian history or has our view of morality evolved beyond the fixed point in time – or is not a moral evil at all?

    People of all theologies and ideologies have committed good and evil, none have shown themselves to be the exclusive driver of good nor the exclusive driver of evil.

  • streiff

    the word is Christendom. If you’re going to criticize it, spell in right.

  • jbben

    “Your statement suggested that you either believe in the Gospels, or are offended by them. My point was merely that those assumptions are false.”

    According to who? To state the idea a little differently: you either believe in the Gospels or you reject them. i.e., you either believe them to be true or you do not. The word “offended” as used in this biblical context is not really connected to mere emotions. It is a matter of choice. You don’t like something or it doesn’t make sense to you so you choose to reject it as truth.

    Jesus meant it to be a clear-cut choice. He knew it would be considered controversial but he said it so that there was no gray. It was a simple choice. A or B.

    I give a lot of credit to Erik for reminding us of this – in a matter of this importance, the choice is really black or white. Jesus was saying there is no gray, no middle ground. You are for me or against me.

  • Jackal4444

    calls on us to “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Judging from lapert’s response to our insistence, have we brought him nearer or driven him farther away from the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Perhaps he will never come to believe what you and I believe, but beating him over the head will, most assuredly, not accomplish that goal.

    And yes, that is literally “ungracious” because we substitute winning the argument for God’s grace as the means for his salvation.

  • Jackal4444

    calls on us to “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Judging from lapert’s response to our insistence, have we brought him nearer or driven him farther away from the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Perhaps he will never come to believe what you and I believe, but beating him over the head will, most assuredly, not accomplish that goal.

    And yes, that is literally “ungracious” because we substitute winning the argument for God’s grace as the means for his salvation.

  • streiff

    had been interpreted then Christianity would be a minor religion on the Mediterranean rim.

    His refusal to hear the message does not relieve us of our obligation to preach the message. The former is on him, the latter is on us.

    And his feelings aren’t the issue as his “heart is hardened” as someone once said. What about others reading this exchange who see Christians unwilling to defend their faith and agreeing that there is no true faith, no true salvation? What good have we done them or us?

  • Jackal4444

    and I believe in God and the absolute truth of His Word; I just think the Bible is far more complex than we sometimes wish it to be. And so I, like you, seek supporting evidence as a a means of interpreting the Bible as God intended.

    That said, I’m less certain that the preponderance of the evidence is on our side — I’m no biblical scholar, but as I understand it, there is more historical, archeological, and documentary evidence (i.e., the Septuagent, the Masoretic Texts, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, to name a few) supporting the Old Testament than there is supporting the New Testament.

  • redcometchar2010

    In my original post I quoted John 15:18-21 not John 10:18-21. My mistake and I apologize.

  • streiff

    other than Tacitus, Josephus, the Church Fathers, etc. Fragments of the Gospels were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    Are you saying the case for a historical Moses or Jacob is stronger than the case for a historical Christ? I find that an astounding statement to make from any standpoint.

    I’m afraid that I don’t understand you second paragraph because what it seems to say is something rather unexpected from someone who proclaims themselves either a Christian or a Baptist.

  • simmy

    I like this comment MrMosis, and would like to add something to it.
    In the KJV, Exodus 3:14 reads, “I AM THAT I AM.”
    One day as I was reading the verse the word THAT
    was all I could seem to concentrate on. When I compared the verse to Rev. 1:8 (KJV) “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD, which is and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

    I understood it as the reason God said to Moses, “I AM THAT I AM”
    Comparing these scriptures, “I am THAT I am.”
    Puts it all into a different kind of light.

    I just wanted to share that with you and hope you are as enlightened by the thought as I was when I first realized the importance of comparrisons between the Old and New Testiments.

  • The_Gadfly

    provided you know what to look for when you look at the experiments. And that makes it science.

    On the other hand, we haven’t seen the evolution of any species into any other. Which is what makes that NOT science and an article of faith amongst a certain group of people.

    I agree that his argument is silly, but you’ll need better examples.

  • streiff

    we have seen evidence of quantum reactions but we haven’t seen them. We have seen evidence of sub atomic particles but we haven’t seen them.

    As far as your statement goes, we’ve also seen angels “if you know what to look for.”

    I’m will to split hairs with you all day over this if you want.

  • Jackal4444

    Certainly the Apostle Paul (the “someone” I assume you’re referring to in the third paragraph) didn’t think so, as he taught both predestination and election (i.e., those that will receive salvation were predestined before the beginning of time, and will remain the elect regardless of any actions we may or may not take).

    And I’m not saying don’t defend the faith, I’m saying don’t attack others — if your goal truly is the fulfillment of The Great Commission, you will draw far more converts with honey than you will with vinegar.

  • streiff

    he doesn’t mention predestination or election. Since the Reformation some protestant denominations have put those words in his mouth.

    Paul was beaten for preaching and driven from cities and eventually martyred. I think he did quite well with vinegar, right up until he was beheaded.

  • aesthete

    The problems with Islam do not result from their exclusive faith claims: the Amish, for instance, do not present a problem for the US. Indeed, exclusive claims of various sorts inform every other facet of our lives, from philosophy to politics, so why should religion be any different? Some people can misuse religion, but that is true of virtually everything. Suffice it to say, interpreting the New Testament as advocating violence on the part of believers towards non-believers is an egregious misreading of the Scriptures.

  • jeffreywturner

    When you understand that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are not only separate from the Father, but they are also one in the same with him, then you will understand that recognizing Jesus as God is not placing another god before God, because the Father and the Son are one in the same.

    When God promised Abraham that through him all nations would be blessed (ie: not only Jews, but Gentiles as well) – he was talking about Jesus.

    The New Testament scriptures are as well attested to as the Tanakh my friend.

    If you are a student of Jewish history, you will know that there were dozens (if not hundreds) who claimed to be the Messiah, but only one of them fulfilled the Messianic prophecies of the Tanakh.

    The great news for you though, is that there is an indication in scripture than before Jesus returns, a disproportionately high number of ethnic Jews (I assume you are Jewish in the ethnic sense in addition to your faith tradition) will come to know him and accept his saving grace. I pray that you will be among that number.

    In the meantime however, let’s just do as you suggest, and work together to combat evil as we see it, by advancing conservative values and solutions to the problems we face.

    God Bless You my friend!

  • jeffreywturner

    The NT scripture is at least as well attested to, if not more so, than the OT scriptures.

    First, the NT was written much closer to the time of the events it describes than the OT was to the events it describes.

    Second, the earliest extant manuscripts and fragments from the NT date much closer to the original writings than those of the OT.

    In fact, the Masoretic text, which comprises the current Jewish canon and the Protestant Old Testament, was only compiled around 700 AD. The Septuagint was compiled about 1,000 years before that, but Jews today do not even accept that as their canon.

  • Bill S

    he did mention election/predestination in Ephesians 1 and Romans 9. And we’ll never come to terms here (or anywhere else, given that the argument has been going on for a couple thousand years now) on what exactly those passages mean with respect to Calvinist theology. But there’s a whole lot more to Calvinism than the U and the L in TULIP anyway.

  • streiff

    and my mistake

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    I’m not sure there would be a Calvinist movement today if it wasnt for Romans 9. Most people get caught up on the double-predestination aspect of Calvinisim but that simply flows from basic logic when you believe in the election Paul mentions in Romans 9 and Eph 1
    “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” Eph 1:4-5

    I’m a Calvinist, but I really dont see how you can read that any other way without some creative immagination.

  • streiff

    of predestination out there. I’m not a Calvinist and I do believe in predestination, just not the Calvinist variety.

  • lapert

    I don’t just disagree with the assertion that Jesus is the messiah but I strongly disagree with the assertion that evidence of it outweighs at all the evidence to the contrary.

    The only evidence that one is the messiah is the reestablishment of the Jewish kingdom in Israel – Jesus didn’t do it.

    Of course you will make up your own criteria as signals he was, we can run around in circles on it and won’t agree, but at the end of the day none of it constitutes ‘evidence’ just theological assumptions.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    then you believe we (and who do you mean by we) are predestined (and predestined to what)?

  • streiff

    otherwise we’ll be tossing proof texts around like confetti

  • streiff

    and probably compelling to a Pharisee of the first century but not so much to anyone else.

  • lapert

    It’s compelling to 21st century Jews. In fact, it is not controversial in the least among most of Judaism across history. At least you find it an interesting theory, I find the notion of a son of god and a second coming an interesting fairy tale but much less interesting as theological theory.

  • lapert

    you are right, they are pretty blunt but so is Erick’s words about reject christ and the one true way. While I am not defending dlieb’s comments per se I would defend the notion that rooting a conservative political sites response to this tragedy in the rejection of Jesus and Christianity as the one true answer can be off-putting to many who share the political goals of red state and doesn’t seem like the right forum for it.

  • lapert

    Because I don’t recall them (and I do think it is different when it comes under Erick’s name or under other diarists or commenters because he is the recognized leader of the site).

  • oblio

    Just as the Pharasees did.
    The temporal Israel in Palestine is a type of the true Israel, just as pre-Incarnate Jews were a type of Christ’s Church.

  • lapert

    out of thin air a new understanding of the messiah just as early Christians did to validate the following of a man following his death.

  • streiff

    it is interesting to those Jews who refused to respond to the Resurrection and Pentecost. Which makes their opinion somewhat akin to that of the Tories who ended up as a tiny bit of Canada in 1782.

    But men often believe they understand God’s way and what they are really doing is demanding God act the way they wish and on their time schedule not His.

    I think we’ve both established that we can be disrespectful and nasty if we want.

    My final word is this, this site has never disguised the role Christianity plays in forming our beliefs and actions. If you’re around at Christmas and Easter you’ll see we celebrate the Nativity and Resurrection, not the Winter Holiday and Spring Break. You don’t have to believe to participate in the site but you also have no grounds to object or expect us to really take your views on this into consideration. It is you who are seeking to be a member of this community which is overwhelmingly and vocally Christian not vice versa.

  • http://www.twitter.com/RS_yoyo yoyo

    Rev. 22, verse 21:
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    Amen indeed!!!

    I do not worry for the grace of my Lord is with me and my family.

  • oblio

    believe the same as I do. Those being the Church Fathers. Kinda comes with being Eastern Orthodox.

  • lapert

    As you say this I would say you are wrong, you do not know the true nature of God and are unfortunately following a wrong path. As a student of Jewish history I do know that there were many who claimed to be messiah, many at the same time as Jesus and many since, but to date none of them have fulfilled the messianic prophecies.

    I hope, that in our days we will be here to see the Messiah come and we can rejoice together in Jerusalem. Till then, God bless.

  • oblio

    And how can it be a ‘new’ understanding and at the same time be Apostolic??

  • Jackal4444

    on your parting suggestion, and on that conciliatory note I thank each of you for the robust discussion and bid you all a good day.

  • Jackal4444

    on your parting suggestion, and on that conciliatory note I thank each of you for the robust discussion and bid you all a good day.

  • lapert

    Yep, we could go around in circles all day each leaving with as strong a belief we are the correct one. One day we will be privileged to learn the truth, when that day comes if I am wrong find me – I’ll buy you a beer.

  • gekster

    Well said.

  • lapert

    “You don?t have to believe to participate in the site but you also have no grounds to object or expect us to really take your views on this into consideration. It is you who are seeking to be a member of this community which is overwhelmingly and vocally Christian not vice versa.”

    Yep, no grounds to expect you to take my views into consideration – and in return it should not be difficult for you to understand why Republicans, despite the policy and cultural similarities, continue to struggle to get more of the Jewish vote.

    And of course I would echo:
    “But men often believe they understand God?s way and what they are really doing is demanding God act the way they wish and on their time schedule not His.”

    But we probably draw different conclusions from it.

  • http://www.twitter.com/RS_yoyo yoyo

    You just gotta love that Handicapper General. She kinda reminds me of Janet-From-Another-Planet Napolitano.

  • http://www.twitter.com/RS_yoyo yoyo

    I mean, like, seriously? Seriously? I mean, really; seriously?

    ‘:o)~

  • streiff

    but there it is.

  • exitsfunnel

    I’m not a Christian or a Jew so I really have no dog in this fight. I have noted though over the course of the last few years the great number of hand wringing diaries trying to figure out why Jews continue to vote as a Democratic bloc when their economic status and support for Israel would suggest that they should have migrated to the GOP. I think that Erick’s post here and a lot of the responses, really do get at the heart of the issue.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    The resident editor who happens to be atheist isn’t bothered when Erick and the rest write about this stuff.

    Man up. Deal with whenever lingering issues you have that cause you to get your panties in a bunch when Christians express their beliefs. There’s no reason to get worked upabout it unless you’re the one with a problem.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    I wasnt trying to start a debate, just trying to see how far apart we are on it

  • streiff

    http://en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/2008/5/Free-Predestination-2.htm

    and maybe this

    http://www.stjohn17v20-21.com/predes01.htm

  • simmy

    For this article. It provides a place to discuss beliefs God, and in Jesus Christ, and the need for America to turn back to our moral principles.

  • simmy

    So this proves that Jews did not kill Jesus
    John 10:17 Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again.
    (18) No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself, I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment I have received of my Father.”

    jbben,
    you’re right. We can’t only speak the “feel good verses of the Bible.”

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    I was just curious

  • rightwingmom52

    Your comments remind me of the old, tired argument against the existence of God that “there are no absolutes.” Yet that sentence is an absolute. There is evidence of God and his existence all around us. It’s simply a matter of whether or not one chooses to believe that evidence.

  • simmy

    But we can’t see the human brain either.
    However, I’m betting it does exist.

  • simmy

    I forgot that science has advanced to the point that an image of our brains can be taken with a CAT scan.
    The fact is that science proves there is a God.
    But this is still not enough to convince those who have no desire to accept those facts.

    Nevertheless, people have their entire lives to change their minds.
    Not only does God exist, He is gracious and forgiving to all who wish to come to Him.

  • rightwingmom52

    I have close family and friends who are not Christians, and I pray that one day they also will see the truth. I heard a minister say recently that young people will be the great gift in hell which is extremely sad. To my dismay, my teenage son and most of his friends are either agnostic or atheist (partly due to the influence of humanism in our public schools), and their “moral relativism” which is a favorite tool of Satan’s is evident in almost every decision they make.

  • Doc Holliday

    History shows these things go in cycles. In fact, our Founders were influenced by the Enlightenment period and thus many had a a more secular or broad vision of religion than many of us have today. America lurched more and less religious during a series of “Great Awakenings”.

    I don’t get what you mean by young people being “the great gift in Hell”. Sounds defeatist to me.

    BTW, Humanism was and is one of the greatest intellectual pursuits in history. It came from monks and other great thinkers/teachers during the Renaissance. Don’t mistake that term with the modern nihilist term of “secular humanism” with basically says man is God.

  • rightwingmom52

    was meant as an admonition to parents to be vigilant and persistent in teaching and caring for our children in Biblical ways and not as society deems fit. The sermon was about being a Christian family with practical advice on raising Christian children. In context, the statement was that Satan will take particular pleasure in the youth he wins. Hearkens to the adage about winning the children.

  • rightwingmom52

    in the original Hebrew text are overwhelmingly used in the plural tense rather than the singular to indicate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,” God is in the plural tense. I appreciate that we can sometimes stray into a theological discussion here as I am always interested in the viewpoints of other conservatives and the occasional liberal. For anyone interested in reading articles that offer proof of God’s existence and the relationship between science and Christianity, there is a wealth of information at apologeticspress.org.

  • sheryl

    We Christian’s are not perfect as we live our life. However most of us want
    to share with others how a belief in Christ has made our existence better.
    We have our share of heartache, illness, and disappointment. What makes
    us different is the fact that God’s Holy Spirit dwells within and this gives us
    comfort. In John 16:7 Jesus said he must leave this earth, go to His Father
    in Heaven so that the Comforter may come and live inside those who believe
    in His Son Christ.
    Jesus also taught a person can’t serve two masters. That is why when
    Christ lives within, everyday decisions reflect His teachings. As i travel thru
    life my belief has always been, no one else may know my transgression
    againist them but God will.
    Remember, anyone can say they are a Christian. However Satan will
    use that as a cover. He is the wolf in sheeps clothing.

  • jeffreywturner

    Since the word “fulfilled” implies completeness, I would acknowledge that “to date”, no one has fulfilled all of the Messianic prophecies.

    What I should have said is that all except Jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophecies, and were proven to be false messiahs. Jesus’ fulfillment of the prophecies is of course still in process and will not be complete until his return.

    In the interest of full disclosure, I will say that I have a different take on these things than most Christians, because it was through reading the Tanakh that I came to recognize Jesus as Messiah. In my experience, this is very atypical.

    This is a great discussion though – it is not every day on Red State, or anywhere for that matter that I encounter an actual** Jew willing to discuss such matters. I thank you for that.

    **When I say “actual” Jew, I mean someone of the Jewish faith, as opposed to a “census” Jew, who is only Jewish by ethnicity.

  • jeffreywturner

    Look at verse 26, and fill in the blanks:

    Then God said “Let __ make man in ___ image, according to ___ likeness.”

    ;)

  • keepourrepublic

    because your response does not speak to the substance of what I wrote.

    To clarify what you seem to misunderstand:

    I did not suggest that the point of his post was to “boot out all of the non-Christians from the conservative movement”

    I was pointing out that by discussing Christians vs non-Christians that Erick was painting with too broad of a brush for the Conservative Movement contains both. While most of the mud Erick slung hit socialists a good amount of it also hits fellow conservatives. That’s friendly fire. I’m just trying to say “knock it off” as politely as I can.

    As far as being offended by “lost”…I am probably as offeneded by having a Christian tell me I’m lost as a Christian would be if I told him he was “delusional” because of faith.

    To repeat a point I made earlier, I have no problem with Christians talking up Christianity. That’s what Christians are supposed to do and is friendly.

    Erick wasn’t doing that. Erick was tearing down non-Christians to promote Christianity. That’s not friendly.

    There’s a big difference between the two. While most of the latter will be directed at the other side, some of that hits allies as well.

    If you can’t grasp why that’s a bad idea, well, I don’t know what more I can say.

    You have a good day.

  • Jackal4444

    (even lapert) would dispute the historicity of Jesus, but what all non-Christians would dispute is the divinity of Jesus. lapert’s point of contention was Erick’s invocation of Christianity when keeping the focus on God and good versus evil would have been less exclusive/divisive. But I concede the point that this may have been a case of over-sensitivity on his/my part.

  • Jackal4444

    (even lapert) would dispute the historicity of Jesus, but what all non-Christians would dispute is the divinity of Jesus. lapert’s point of contention was Erick’s invocation of Christianity when keeping the focus on God and good versus evil would have been less exclusive/divisive. But I concede the point that this may have been a case of over-sensitivity on his/my part.

  • merk

    A belief (or lack of) in christ has nothing to do with how good or bad someone is.

    How many people have been killed because someone believed they were fighting a holy war in gods name?

    Look at the people in the westboro church – they believe in christ, and yet i think we’d agree they are pretty vile disgusting people.

    And to be blunt, your ‘truth’ is as true as someone who says allah is god, or who think’s moses was the last prophet of god. Your ‘proof’ is some words in a book – it’s the same ‘proof’ that every other religion has.

    Instead of invoking a truth that can’t be proven and will only wind up insulting many people – perhaps leading the violence you are trying to avoid, how about we just agree violence is a bad thing, regardless of what you believe in. I don’t believe in christ as a supernatural being. But I don’t need to in order to accept his general message of being nice to your fellow man.

  • streiff

    is that what you believe doesn’t really matter.

    btw, are you seriously contending that more people have been killed in the name of religion than by the atheistic regimes of the 20th century? That was a rhetorical question as you can’t answer.

  • jasonkarov

    From a purely logical and analytical standpoint the tragedy in Arizone has nothing to do with religion, never mind a belief
    in someone who lived 2000 years ago

    Is there some lock on the tag “Conservative” in the USA that
    requires one to be not only Christian but a “born again” tongue
    speaking dominionist?

    Like me, a very conservative native born US citizen, NRA member, who really likes some of the tea party doctrines, but I am not a Christian, and never will be.
    And what about the millions of Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Islamics, agnostics, atheists in the USA that are your fellow conservative citizens?

    We don’t think about Jesus from day to day, or ever.
    Your religion, your beliefs are very important to you, but not to us.
    If you want to write about your faith, that’s fine, it’s your blog

    But if you want to engage with the USA audience beyond preaching to the choir, you will
    have to put your argument forward with logic and fact, and not base it on your religion or faith

    Pilgrims came to America was to escape those in England who
    were FORCING them into certain religious beliefs and practices.

    America has become the great nation it is largely based on freedoms and liberties.

    And those include the freedom OF religion, as well as the freedom FROM religion

    Respecffully, Jason

  • Jack_Savage

    Do you believe in God? Yes or no?

    Because if not, then where do our “inalienable rights” come from? Because if they do not come from God, then they must come from man. And if they come from man, then they are not inalienable, and can be taken away. And if they can be taken away, then nothing a conservative believes in means anything.

    So if you believe they can be taken away, then you are not a conservative.

    I ask you again – do you believe in God?

  • JSobieski

    Inalienable rights are inherent in every human being.

    I would not per se exclude atheists (much less agnostics) from the label “conservative”.

    I know its just annectdotal, but it seems like just about every single serious agnostic I know is conservative. There is something inherently conservative in acknowledging that there are material limits on what mankind can really be sure of.

    Put another way, agnostics are the least prone to utopian fantasies of creating heaving on earth, which is a common train of thought for leftists.

  • Jack_Savage

    Remember how the founders put it – ” …the laws of nature AND” – not *or* – “nature’s God”.

    There is no ambiguity, there is no leeway, there is simply no alternative. One may argue so, but it simply isn’t.

    And as far as “heaving on earth” goes, leftists are producing a lot of that, particularly in my little corner of it. (smiley face).

  • gekster

    but what if there is.

    On a side note. to put a smily face, use a colon or semi colan, (for a wink)
    followed by a right ), or for a frown, a left (.

    like this. :)
    be sure to put a couple of spaces afer the end of sentance or it will just be as typed.
    and it doesn’t work on comment titles.

  • JSobieski

    but I know several agnostics who are conservative. Agnosticism is inherently humble about mankinds ability to know things for certain, and you have to admit that there is something conservative about aknowledging human limitations.

    I am inclined to agree with you that natural law would not exist as a philosophy without the theology of Judeo-Christianity. However. I don’t see any reason to preclude people who otherwise fit in with the conservative philosophy from calling themslves conservative.

    There are many religions out there that are no stricly speaking, monotheistic. Does that mean none of those people can call themslves conservative?

    If someone believes in the inherent dignity of human life, they can be conservative. The fact that we may think of that belief as being inaccurate because it is not grounded in belief of God does not somehow undue the fact that the belief exists. The inherent dignity of human life is the precondition for conservatism, regardless of the grounds (solid or fleeting) upon which it is based.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    An avowed atheist who is a proponent of the values of the Christian West, he is a great voice for traditional morality and virtue. His books “A Small Treatise On the Great Virtues” and “The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality” are excellent, especially the former. He is one of the more conservative living philosophers.

  • aesthete

    that it is nigh-impossible to construe a right as “inalienable” if said right is a manmade structure itself. That said, most conservative agnostics do entertain a vague sense of mysticism that allows them to posit an external (divine?) source for said rights without buying in to Judeo-Christian doctrine. (It is somewhat more difficult for athiests to justify inalienable rights, and I have not seen a credible attempt besides Objectivist philosophy.)

  • coronellakeiper

    Erick Erickson, this article “What’s Missing” fills most of the empty spots in the analysis of the current events which I have so far read. To support your statements further: A believer told me that an ex-satanic-high-priest told their large independent congregation that if, to repeat, “if” a person continues to remember The Creator God and His only begotten son The Lord Jesus Christ, then they cannot be killed, even by groups intent on murdering the person as an act of worship of “Satan”, literally “The Adversary”, (who actually hates every human ever created by the living God), Then this truth of the power of God to protect and save those whose hearts are fully His was reiterated at another meeting place by an invited speaker. Wow! This makes so much of the statement, “”…that if you confess with your mouth “The Lord Jesus” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved.”" As “”the tongue is the rudder of the whole
    body”" and “”life and death are in the power of the tongue and whoever loves it shall eat the fruit of it”" we do well at times of distress to state aloud, even if only to ourselves, “HalleluYAH, for God raised The Lord Jesus Christ up from the dead and Jesus Christ is The Lord to the glory of God the Father.” As “halleluyah” is “praise of creator”, and as “”God inhabits the praises of His people”" and as “”God alone does wonders on the earth”" we can expect to immediately find God doing the wonder on the earth of saving us — in any situation.

    Of course, what happens subsequently is that we respect, love and wish more completely to obey God’s own good Holy Spirit!

    Again, thank you for your article. Worth reading. And worthy of a positive confirmation.

    Coronella Keiper, USA

  • jerry39

    All Christians were for the first 1500 years or so. These Christians who were around in the beginning wrote the bible, and subsequent books about what the bible meant by certain things. That same old Catholic Chuch is still around today, still consistent with Christ’s teachings from over 2000 years ago. You get almost a new interpretation every day, but I say why not ask the folks who were there in the beginning? You might be suprised what they actually believe vs. what they are accused of believing.

    Christ gave the keys of the Kingdom to Peter and told him to go build his Church. Christ then promised Peter that even the gates of hell would not prevail agaisnt that Church. For the last 400-500 years, hundreds of Christian denominations have come up with interesting interpretations to deny Christ’s promise to the Church, hundreds of those have given way to the next thing in that short amount of time. Yet she still stands and I promise she will never tell you Christ is a socialist. You could call her conservative for her refusal to bend with the times.

    I know – jumping into a month old comment threadjack about religion on RS definitely makes me a sinner.

    Thank God for Confession.

    Ok, thats it, no more, I swear.

    But seriously, this Diary needed a bump after the Cairo attack on Ms. Logan, who my prayers are with.