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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

Metaphorically Speaking, the Adults Should be Getting Punched

“It is time we consider making the ‘Adult Establishment’ in Washington as morally objectionable as ‘adult establishments’ already are.”

I realize we are not supposed to use “angry” rhetoric these days, but columns like this one in USA Today by Jody Bottum demand an answer.

The title is, “Where are adults in debt ceiling talks?” If there is justice in the world, the only correct answer is, “Getting punched in the face, though metaphorically speaking.”

We can forgive a contributing editor of the Weekly Standard for taking to USA Today to take shots — also metaphorical — at Jim DeMint. After all, the magazine that gave us the ideological underpinnings of the “big government conservative” cannot be expected to really be too dedicated to . . . um . . . smaller government.

But to juxtapose Jim DeMint as a child and Tim Geithner as an adult is a bit much — let alone Geithner as the conservative and DeMint as the radical.


Jim DeMint says it’s not his fault. The GOP senator from South Carolina points out that he didn’t help spend all the nation’s money. Neither did the new congressional Republicans. So why, he asked in a recent interview, should they extend the national debt ceiling to pay for that spending?

. . . .

[I]t’s curious that Geithner sounds like a conservative in all this, while DeMint sounds like a radical.

Here is the problem, which no one wants to discuss. If we are going to keep raising the debt ceiling, why have it at all? We’ve set ourselves up for an elaborate and cynical kabuki dance with a pre-ordained outcome and, ultimately, no incentive to cut spending.

In fact, it is the adults in the room — the ones who supposedly aren’t speaking enough — who have created the problem. I don’t want those people to speak. I want them to shut the heck up.

They’ve driven up debt. They’ve driven up spending. They’d drive up taxes if we let them. And they know, they absolutely know, that they can do it with impunity because high minded pundits will take to the pages of USA Today and call them adult, back them up, and insist on more debt so we can have more spending. Of course most will fail to mention the “more spending” problem.

The arguments we are having now — the sky is falling, the world is ending, we are going to default, the markets will crash, everyone will hate us — are the exact same arguments pushed by the exact same people who advocated TARP.

Many politicians lost their political lives — again, metaphorically speaking — for supporting TARP. The same should happen here.

As Jody Bottum himself notes, the world will not end, the sky will not fall, and the Treasury Secretary can keep paying out money.

Friends, we take in more money each month than we must pay out in interest on the national debt. The only way we will default on our loans if the debt ceiling is not raised is if Barack Obama lets us default.

We should resist all efforts to raise the debt ceiling and should instead start living within our means. Otherwise, let’s scrap the debt ceiling and stop doing the stupid kabuki dance while lighting candles and sacrificing red herrings in the name of some mythical, responsible adults participating in a conversation we wouldn’t even be having if these adults hadn’t been destroying the economic future of this country in the first place.

Maybe heaven is not the only thing requiring the faith of a child.

By the way, it is time we consider making the “Adult Establishment” in Washington as morally objectionable as “adult establishments” already are.

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COMMENTS

  • http://www.imperfectamerica.com imperfectamerica

    The GOP should absolutely refuse to raise the ceiling and force the hand of the President and the Democrats to begin to make material cuts in federal expenditures.

    The beauty of the debt ceiling is that it provides a perfect canvas upon which the GOP (or more likely, conservatives like DeMint) can lay out a black and white argument about government priorities, and do so in such a way that even the least engaged voter can understand. Made properly, that is an argument that even the John Boehner might be able to win, although he might want to defer to Paul Ryan to actually talk about the matter.

  • anjinconsulting

    You said “In fact, it is the adults in the room ? the ones who supposedly aren?t speaking enough ? who have created the problem.”

    The room is filled with clowns, and the ones who have created the problem are voters. Congress and its institutional craving for unrestricted spending are only a symptom of childish voter’s ambivalence with regard for their vote and/or their lack of responsibility to vote at all.

    Responsible adults have finally interceded in the kiddie circus that has evolved from a constitutional institution vested with the authority and responsibility for financial health of the federal government.

    All that is required now is obedience to the voters. Demint, et al need to stand up and say “aye aye sir!” and follow through with action.

  • http://teapartisan.wordpress.com Socrates

    Since we can afford the interest payments, and indeed to repay the principle on the bonds that come due each month, the only way we can default is if the government (in the person of the president) decides to pay for ponies and plane rides to India instead of the bills.

  • southernpatriots

    The GOP should stand against raising the debt ceiling, unless a strong agreement comes forth that reduces spending. Some would say not raising the debt ceiling would bring financial calamity upon the U.S. and even upon private companies in the U.S. and by chain reaction around the world. What can be used to motivate the free-spending Democrats who have controlled the Congress and Presidency for the past 2 years and have spent much more than their predecessors? If not the debt ceiling, then what? John Boehner should talk for just a few moments, short, concise, maybe with some reference to his children and grandchildren and how much this continuing drive toward insolvency hurts them puts upon them such a tax burden, etc (emotional appeal). Then have Paul Ryan speak on the matter and give the nuts and bolts of it all (intellectual appeal). This is something the GOP can do and can “lay out a black and white argument about government priorities” as Erick once again succinctly stated.

  • ganative1

    The GOP will raise the debt ceiling and will spend more.

    Americans deserve exactly who they vote for.

  • krsnadas

    I know Ron Paul isn’t popular on this site, but he has been making all of these arguments about economics, the folly of Keynesian thinking, and he predictions have come true. He could make the argument (and is making it) about the debt ceiling, and making it well.

  • acat

    … and the outcome of runaway spending is something Luap Nor saw under Carter.. so of course he’d recognize it when it showed up again.

    Sad part is that the american voters didn’t .. sadder still that some of those same voters are seeing Luap Nor’s karnack routine as meaningful.

    Mew

  • acat

    This not only can be hung albatross-style around the necks of the so-called adults, it should be. That’ll take someone or, better, several someones with very large megaphones to get through the chattering and nattering, but it can be done, and IMO it needs doing.

    Mew

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    He’s never been able to get even a small minority of support in any of his signature positions. The guy is an incompetent fruitloop who appeals to conspiracy theorists of all strips and to people who have absolutely no fundamental knowledge of either foreign policy or economics.

    The biggest mistake Boehner etal made at the start of this Congress was not throwing the raving loon out of the Republican Caucus. He’s no more rational nor is he any more “Republican” than David Duke.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    …where he debates whether drugs should be legalized. He comes across, appropriately enough, as a buffoon. Classic Ron Paul. It’s on YouTube. Just search Ron Paul Morton Downey.

    Other nice thing: Downey smokes on air. Classic awful tv.

  • edintexas

    Because “krsnadas” knew how you felt, a simple statement of disagreement would have sufficed. Acat, the backward spelling shtick was cute the first time, MBecker, the personal attacks belittle you and not Paul.

  • ihateliberals

    need to stand up now and obey the wishes of the people. We are the ones that sent them there to be responsible Adults. It is time for them to “Reagan Up” and take control of congress and the economy.

  • fpete13527

    It is time for Congress to take a stand on the debt limit and this is the place where they need to do it. No raising debt limit.

    The only toddlers are the ones that don’t understand this. And, the toddlers who don’t understand this will be removed from office.

    No raising the debt limit. Period.

  • wolfeman

    debt ceiling directly to the repeal of Obamacare. If the tables were reversed, the Democrats would do that in a heartbeat. Let them choose between a rise in the debt ceiling, or Obamacare. Either one would be a victory for Republicans. It would be well worth one last rise in the debt ceiling to get rid of Obamacare. Republicans made a pledge to the American people that they would do everything they could to repeal this monstrosity. Here’s their chance to show the people that they meant it. We’ve been losing the idealogical war in this country for years because the other side has been willing to fight harder than our side. If Republicans don’t draw a real line in the sand and then actually defend that line, we’ll just keep moving farther to the left. It’s a simple choice.

  • Next93

    This is where the GOP’s “second chance” begins. Wimp out over the next two years and we get an (impotent) third party resulting in four more years of Obama and his chums turning us in the United Soviet of America.

    Bottom line, if the GOP doesn’t grow a spine over this, we’re all screwed.

  • gamechange11two

    “The arguments we are having now ? the sky is falling, the world is ending, we are going to default, the markets will crash, everyone will hate us ? are the exact same arguments pushed by the exact same people who advocated TARP.”

    I thought those were the exact same arguments the lefties used to pass obamacare…and financial reform…and cash for clunkers…and…oh, I get it now.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    “Winning” this debate will set the tone for 2012. IMHO if this ends badly for us so will 2012, no matter who the candidate is.

    Republicans have been fairly inarticulate on these issues. Gone are the days when babbling talking points spoken by people who don’t deeply understand the issues will suffice.

    I have no issue with getting Democrats to talk loud and often about the financial Armageddon that will falsely occur if the debt ceiling is not raised. It is by their hand and under their watch this has occurred. They have lavished large sums of our money on foolish partisan endeavors for the past several years. So I am anxious to have that debate right through the next election.

    Contrary to Democrats’ scare tactics the government will not “default” on its obligations, especially during this part of the budget cycle. We have enough money to meet obligations for at least 5 months. So Republicans should be willing to cross any false line-in-the-sand Democrats make.

    We need to extract serious, sustainable reductions in expenditures over the long-term – a Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Balanced Budget Act on steroids if you will. Without such discipline raising the debt limit is simply putting a finger in the dike and will indeed lead to the disaster Democrats suddenly seem so fond to speak of.

    Republicans should be nailing a copy of that debt reduction legislation to the White House door. Where is it? Yeah, that’s what I thought- it’s lost somewhere in the disconnected, scrambled individual talking point for the Sunday shows.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    RonPaul is a – or at least is comfortable cavorting with – 9/11 Troofers. His foreign policy is the product of a raving lunatic. And his knowledge of economics is, shall we say, less than golden.

    There’s a reason why, in 2008, RS instituted a policy of banning Ronbots on sight. And Troofers. And Birthers. It is to our pain that that policy has been, at least for the moment, revisited. It will most likely be reinstated for obvious reasons as the primary season heats up. RonPaul and his acolytes are simply unhinged.

  • melatr7

    do I agree that the debt ceiling should not be raised, I think the conversation should be about LOWERING it. As in ‘You bring a knife, we bring a gun’. (Imagine the faces of the liberals if this were suggested- LOL)

    Some adults need to sit down and figure out how much it can be lowered this year and next year and then the next until we we have a plan to work within the budget (or , Heaven forbid, actually have a fiscal year surplus) AND lower the debt.

    This is a tried and true principle of overcoming debt at home. It is what all of the debt councelors will advise. It works. A one percent reduction per year would just about HALF the ceiling in seven years. If that wouldn’t work, try .9 or .8 percent. Whatever. The idea is to have a REASONABLE PLAN to reverse our monstrous debt. It won’t happen if the deficits keep piling up.

    So far the plan has just been to increase it ‘as necessary’- in some sort of willy nilly fashion. And the figures they come up with are only calculated to buy time, not accomplish a darned fiscal thing.

    Even with a plan, nothing will work without commitment. That why we need seriously Patriotic adults to turn this around.

  • melbedewy

    No will to go after entitlements, bloated military, foreign aid in EITHER party.

  • renny

    and would not “punish” the Reps. but just send more Dems. to DC and elsewhere.

  • renny

    You must all be too young to remember the debacle of 1995, when the GOP, having just won Congress for the first time in 60 years, lost the public’s support immediately. The Dems. are waiting with baited breath for a gov’t shut down they can demonize the right with. You think the leftwing lunacy over AZ was outrageous, wait until they have something of substance to clobber us with. Do not fall for that trap.

  • tlhanger

    We have to be short and concise. We have to come across as the adults that have been sent to Washington to do a job and we are going to do it even if the stupid kids who caused the trouble don’t get it.

  • krsnadas

    I’m not a truther, nor birther, nor any of those labels you threw out. I am a published author and Desert Storm vet and agrees with his policies. Yeah, some of those nutty people do like Ron Paul, but you’re using guilt by association the usual “Ron Paul is a nut” non-arguments, the same kind of ad hominem attacks leftists make against the right on a regular basis, and the same sort of mentality and logic that we saw on full display after the Tuscon shootings.

    BTW, how’s that interventionist foreign policy and Keynesian economics working out for you? We’re broke now, and the Chinese are eating our lunch, and no, it’s not all Obama’s fault.

  • gamechange11two

    While the LSM still dominates, it doesn’t have unfettered control over the message, or even over the tone of the message. Witness the voter response to the left’s insipid efforts these last two weeks: rejection by a 2 to 1 margin.

    Republicans lost the presidential race in’ 96 because Bob Dole was an uninspiring candidate, not becuse the government shut down for a few days in the fall of ’95. They still held congress for another 10 years.

    But none of this matters. The threats are kabuki, and the republicans have already telegraphed to the president that they WILL blink in the upcoming chicken match.

  • YnotNOW

    The good thing about the existence of the debt ceiling is that it forces Congress to have debates on the debt. That debate should shed light on the problem of spending that continues to grow – and cannot continue on this trajectory. Therefore the debate should include meaningful ways to adjust the trajectory. May not make it go down immediately (we don’t control the Senate after all), but slow the growth with REALISTIC hope for continuing budget control that will balance the budget soon (and then start paying down the debt).
    – Repeal of Obamacare is one meaningful item, but since likely dead in the Senate, this should not be the only one.
    – Elimination of PBS, NEA, etc. are valuable for symbolic reasons to get Government out of areas they should not meddle in, but the actual dollars are not significant to the tota budget.
    – There are no “easy pickings” like fraud prevention or bridges to nowhere, that are big enough to really make a difference.
    – That means Entitlement reform must be tackled. Start with baby steps that will accumulate down the road. Paul Ryan’s budget outline is a good starting point.
    The debate on the Debt ceiling gives us leverage to make a start on the hard work of entitlement reform, because the entitlements are what are really driving the debt!

  • YnotNOW

    The good thing about the existence of the debt ceiling is that it forces Congress to have debates on the debt. That debate should shed light on the problem of spending that continues to grow – and cannot continue on this trajectory. Therefore the debate should include meaningful ways to adjust the trajectory. May not make it go down immediately (we don’t control the Senate after all), but slow the growth with REALISTIC hope for continuing budget control that will balance the budget soon (and then start paying down the debt).
    – Repeal of Obamacare is one meaningful item, but since likely dead in the Senate, this should not be the only one.
    – Elimination of PBS, NEA, etc. are valuable for symbolic reasons to get Government out of areas they should not meddle in, but the actual dollars are not significant to the tota budget.
    – There are no “easy pickings” like fraud prevention or bridges to nowhere, that are big enough to really make a difference.
    – That means Entitlement reform must be tackled. Start with baby steps that will accumulate down the road. Paul Ryan’s budget outline is a good starting point.
    The debate on the Debt ceiling gives us leverage to make a start on the hard work of entitlement reform, because the entitlements are what are really driving the debt!

  • carolina

    is to get some committment(s) about serious ACTUAL reduction in govt spending = cut some program(s).
    Keep the discussion adult and firm and the American people will support the repubs.
    Anything else will be ‘all heat and no light’.

  • carolina

    is to get some committment(s) about serious ACTUAL reduction in govt spending = cut some program(s).
    Keep the discussion adult and firm and the American people will support the repubs.
    Anything else will be ‘all heat and no light’.

  • johnt

    The march is always to the left, a hopeful step back, two ugly steps forward. The culture of Get Along affects our GOP softies deeply, thet want so bad it hurts, to show they are reasonable, perhaps get their photo in the NY Times with that coveted “eschews ideology” tag.
    We’re drowning and DeMint is the bad guy ???

  • edintexas

    I’m so glad you cleared that up. Silly me, I thought calling someone an “incompetent fruitloop” and “raving loon” was at least verging on “personal attack”. I didn’t realize these were either accurate professional psychiatric diagnoses, or terms of endearment.

  • edintexas

    Banning speech (writing) about positions we don’t like isn’t exactly something Conservatives are supposed to be engaged. We are supposed to overcome with logic and argument, not eliminate the messenger.

  • red_oakster

    DeMint and Pence are playing the bad cop role, but the GOP leadership in the House will make a deal. And because the deal will be made with Obama, the compromise is going to be a stinker. Like TARP, the debt ceiling vote is a crisis moment and games of chicken are the last thing that ambitious politicians like to do.

    I’m with Gamecock; get what you can in negotiations and move on to appropriations where there is a real opportunity to enact spending cuts.

    Finally, don’t kid yourselves about DeMint or Pence. If either were president (a heartwarming thought!), they would sign the debt ceiling increase. The danger in their positioning (and that’s what it is, because the debt ceiling is going to and must be raised) is that Republican defections against a debt ceiling raise will make the House product a bipartisan affair, with next to no spending cuts.

    That said, a House resolution with a few well chosen items from the conservative wish list will be very hard for the Democrats to refuse.

  • powertothepeople

    real life with private property. In real life where free speech is a necessary thing in order to speak out against policies, government, wrongs, etc conservatives are on the front line protecting that right. But just as much as we fight to protect free speech in public, we defend the rights of private property owners. This is private property hence the owner has a right to set rules as to what speech he will allow and what speech he will not allow. Setting these rules do not infringe on your rights, they solidify his rights to determine what can or can not happen on his property.

    Sort of like my home or yours. If I want to cuss, I have every right to do so. But if you come and visit my home, I can tell you not to cuss while I cuss, it is my right. If you do not like my rules, you can leave. But you have no right to tell me what rules to make in my own home. This is a home owned not by me or you, but by another individual. They can ban any speech and make no excuse for doing so.

    I like posting here, I push the envelope and the rules sometimes, but the day I am told to stop, I will. I may not like their rules, I may feel I am right in what I post, but I respect their right to police their own site and I respect their right to tell me what to post here. If I dislike it, I could always start my own site and see how well that works. But even if it did work, bet I would set my own rules for the house. I have toned down my own speech because of their request, and will continue to keep it toned down because it is their right to demand it. They have the right to censor speech on their own property, and that is a conservative value and belief.

  • E Pluribus Unum

    I will accept no blame if I vote for a guy who promises to cut spending, and when he goes to DC and breaks his promises, I vote hos sorry butt out, in favor of a candidate with better bona fides who ALSO goes to DC and breaks his promises.

    As we continue to burn these lying skunks – and I assure you, in Texas we certainly are, there is a point at which THE VOTERS ARE NO LONGER TO BLAME.

    And yes, I raised my voice.

    We do NOT deserve what is being done to us. I will accept no blame, because I have done my part and then some, to change it.

  • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

    not, fundamentally, because they’ll get cover in the press.

    Fundamentally, they can do it with impunity because they know, all things being equal, they’ll get reelected, because history tells them that as long as there’s no significant uptick in the level of participation by Americans in the real political process — party politics at the local level — the incumbents have a greater than 95 per cent probability of getting reelected.

    I agree with everything Erick has written on the surface. But the fundamental solution lies with “we the people.” Many here at Redstate seem to think if we just explain to the current officeholders what to do, and explain it logically, then they’ll see the light and do the right thing.

    Erick is correct when he says:

    We should resist all efforts to raise the debt ceiling and should instead start living within our means. Otherwise, let?s scrap the debt ceiling and stop doing the stupid kabuki dance while lighting candles and sacrificing red herrings in the name of some mythical, responsible adults participating in a conversation we wouldn?t even be having if these adults hadn?t been destroying the economic future of this country in the first place.

    But this policy will only be carried out if we elect enough of the right people. Or get involved enough, in sufficient numbers, in our local Republican Party committees to send a signal to the incumbents that they WILL face a REAL challenge come the 2012 primary.

    Try this. Go to your next local Republican Party committee meeting. Ever been to one? As my mom used to say, “Live a little.” Walk on the wild side for a couple of hours. Find out what goes on there. You may come away with shock and dismay. And you may then figure out that if we really want to change things politically in this country we’ve got to get more conservatives to participate as functioning precinct committeeman members of these local party committee organizations.

    Help make 2011 “The Year of the Precinct Committeeman.”

    Plus, it’s fun.

    Thank you.

    ColdWarrior

  • Next93

    My point is, IF the GOP wimps out, a third party WILL form; conservatives would rather “waste” a vote on a symbolic third party than on a “Dem-Lite” party.

    My feeling at this point is that if McCain had won in 2008, we’d only be a couple of years behind where we are now on the downhill slide. No one’s going to invest time, talent, and treasure to merely slow down the decline.

  • miroco

    Erick is beginning to sound as radical as ME. Naw, he’s too nice. I am however glad to see that attributing a brain to the left is no longer fashionable. They grow worse by the hour, rather like bacteria they become immune. They were never affected by reason, now they are even becoming resistant to brute force, demanding those same considerations they just denied the LoserRinos. I’ll keep DeMint, Flake and a couple of others, it’s time to trash the rest, even Boehner and Cantor are about to sell out.

  • audax

    http://www.redstate.com/audax/2011/01/05/want-to-be-a-decider-show-up-at-your-monthly-county-gop-meeting/

    http://www.redstate.com/audax/2011/01/04/be-a-precinct-delegate-how-i-did-it-in-mi-tx-and-co/

    http://www.redstate.com/audax/

  • concap

    Will the repeal of Obamacare 100% pay for the rais in the debt ceiling?

    If not, won’t we still be compromising?

  • concap

    Will the repeal of Obamacare 100% pay for the rais in the debt ceiling?

    If not, won’t we still be compromising?

  • edintexas

    I don’t believe I wrote that Eric didn’t have the right to ban whatever he wishes on his site. In fact I don’t recollect Eric banning mention of Ron Paul’s name, or posts by people who agree with him, but since I’m a “senior citizen” I might not remember. It is his site, as Editor, and he writes the rules.

    For that matter I didn’t write that banning a name, etc., couldn’t be done. Rather I believe I clearly indicated “banning” is something we shouldn’t be doing in lieu of engaging in debate, or ignoring the posted comment at most (obviously exceptions exist for profanity, lewd and lascivious references, etc.).

    That’s my opinion of what Conservatives ought to be about in matters of political ideas. You apparently have drawn a different understanding of what I wrote. If I was that obtuse in what I wrote, you have my apology.

  • powertothepeople

    “Banning speech (writing) about positions we don?t like isn?t exactly something Conservatives are supposed to be engaged. We are supposed to overcome with logic and argument, not eliminate the messenger.”

    Unless my English is off, you are saying conservatives should not ban just because someone wrote something they do not like. Now that it in itself, may have credence. But since the topic you got into deals with the removal of Ron Paul servants, one would assume that you are referring to the posts made by others above referring to the sites policy to ban Ron Paul supporters on site.

    You responded to this comment from MBecker,

    “There?s a reason why, in 2008, RS instituted a policy of banning Ronbots on sight. And Troofers. And Birthers. It is to our pain that that policy has been, at least for the moment, revisited. It will most likely be reinstated for obvious reasons as the primary season heats up. RonPaul and his acolytes are simply unhinged.”

    Now unless you were referring to a paper being banned, something else all together, or just starting a discussion topic, it is pretty obvious your comment was a retort to MBecker stating that the policy has been to ban RP bots and should again be put into action.

    Now again, if you were simply making a point that we should accept other ideas, so be it. But this site is one of the best at allowing dissenting views even to the point where the dissenting views are direct attacks on the site and conservative values, its mods, and its owner. So not sure why you would have been referring to that. So based on the topic at hand, the comment MBecker made, and that he was who you responded to, one must assume you do not agree with the site policy to ban RP nonsense on site and you feel true conservatives would not do so. I disagree………..

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/01/06/dear-redstate-community/

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Why do you hate private property so much?

    It’s fascists like you who claim the People’s Free Speech right to use Eagle Publishing’s private property, that’s wrong with America today.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Ron Paul is not a commenter here.

    If you can’t handle criticizing public officials, go back to Red China, you statist.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    It is not that they are wrong. Paul is very wrong on a few things, but mostly right on most issues. The problem isn’t libertarianism. I am about 90% libertarian myself.

    The problem is absolutism. Whenever we get one of these Ronulans on the site they absolutely cannot take any criticism. cannot ever admit to being wrong on even the slightest point. And always take their arguments to the reductio as absurdum.

    / they really are more of a hindrance than a help

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    It is not that they are wrong. Paul is very wrong on a few things, but mostly right on most issues. The problem isn’t libertarianism. I am about 90% libertarian myself.

    The problem is absolutism. Whenever we get one of these Ronulans on the site they absolutely cannot take any criticism. cannot ever admit to being wrong on even the slightest point. And always take their arguments to the reductio as absurdum.

    / they really are more of a hindrance than a help

  • edintexas

    I thought Conservatives can read and comprehend the English language. No personal comment intended. If you can read the posts I made, and believe I hate private property – then the comment is intended, just not personal as I’m then commenting on the failure of your teachers in 2 through 12 (and beyond, if applicable).

  • edintexas

    I know Paul has not been a commenter. But with a post of another politician this morning, one never can tell what might happen.

    I believe an application of “Godwin’s Law” to your name calling above (fascist, statist less so) technically makes it a “flame”.

  • powertothepeople

    or is this yet another post of yours that has no merit?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Try harder. Godwin’s law is descriptive.

  • edintexas

    IF you follow the line of reply, I initially commented on both Acat and Becker, simply asking them to “give it a rest”. I pointed out that krsnadas acknowledged the general feeling about Paul on the site. A comment such as Acat’s heading (Even a broken clock…) is perfectly fine. The backward spelling of name strikes me as something less than making a point in debate.

    I, and apparently krsnadas, believed MBecker stepped over the line and engaged in an ad hominem attack on krsnadas (in my view, he seemed to believe krsnadas was an “acolyte” and thus he claimed krsnadas was “unhinged”). I could be wrong about what MBecker meant about krsnadas, but even so he could still have made his point without declaring Paul mentally deranged. MBecker disagreed with a characterization of his comments as an ad hominem attack, which is his right. I will continue to believe we can debate without using terms like “fruitloop”.

    I would greatly appreciate Eric clarifying this, specifically whether there is a policy banning “Ronbots”, “RP Bots” and RP nonsense”. I obviously missed it the first time around. In any event, it apparently is no longer in effect, as MBecker stated the policy “…should again be put into action.”

  • edintexas

    That’s why I believed an application of it was appropriate.

    “Godwin’s law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one’s opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering genocide, propaganda, eugenics (racial superiority) or other mainstays of Nazi Germany, nor, more debatably, to discussion of other totalitarian regimes, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

    “If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult, the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.”
    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

    n.b. I don’t believe “Fascist” was even vaguely related to the thread.

    And now we are treading closer to the territory of Layne’s Law regarding discussions degenerating into arguments over the meaning of a word.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    As anybody who’s been around long at all knows, if I had something to say about you, I would direct it at you. I wrote about RP and his acolytes. RS was innundated with RP acolytes in 08 to the point where they were banned on sight. You’re not even close in what you wrote.

    With respect to my comment, and to Representative Paul, the guy is a documented fruitloop. He’s not a Republican by any stretch of the imagination and his knowledge of both foreign policy and fiscal policy is zero.

    The interventionist foreign policy is working pretty well thank you. And will work even better with a replacement to BO in ’12.

    With respect to Keynesian economics and the Chinese, the problem is not the fed or “fiat money”. The problem is spending in DC and the state governments. Period. You can fiddle with “fiscal policy” in RP terms until hell freezes over and it won’t make a darn bit of difference. Dramatic reductions in absolute spending by governments is the only thing that will make a difference. And, thank you very much, RonPaul has done exactly nothing in his pathetic Congressional career to put a dent in spending. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Bupkis. The guy is an unrestrained hypocrite on fiscal issues.

    I’m not doing guilt by association, I’m doing guilt by admission. Anybody who supports RonPaul and his looneytunes agenda knows nothing about fiscal policy, foreign policy or history.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Why don’t you two just not reply to each other anymore, before you both get banned?

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    If I had wanted to address a specific comment to krsnadas I’d have been pointed about it. My comment was specifically about RP and his acolytes. I didn’t note that he (or you for that matter) were in that club. If I thought you were, I’d say so. Directly and in single syllable words so there’d be no mistake.

    And Ron Paul is an absolute, 100%, unadulterated fruitloop. But only on his good days. Most days he’s worse.

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    Is that a bannable offense?

  • aesthete

    that several things that have nothing to do with libertarianism (and everything to do with insanity) are embraced by Paul and his supporters of their own volition. Not all Paul fans are bad apples, but like Palin fans (but to a larger degree) they tend towards being hypersensitiveness and largely unearned self-righteousness.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You and pttp are jabbing each other with pointy sticks, so now I’m going to say you two can’t talk to each other anymore.

    If you want to throw tridents, use another site.

    I will not deign to debate you about it. If you want to play more passive aggressive games, take it to the contact form because I don’t give a rip what you think about it at this point. I’m sick of you two trolling each other and threadjacking.

  • williamjameson

    This time the ceiling should only be raised if Obama agrees to cut spending and cut costs. Its time to choke the beast in DC and cut back. Gov can operate on short term provisions till Obama is held accountable.

    Simply raising the ceiling and agreeing to discuss spending and cuts later is the oldest trick in the book. Dems will never sit at the table unless the gop has leverage, they will walk away. Dems had meltdowns over the Debt Commission report that the HuffBlo leaked and the rest was a staged effort to say no to cuts in spending and not to entitlements. Everything is on the line if dems win, its time to say no to social liberals and social conservatives or the real needy will starve when the money and credit run out. No way should we let them negotiate without preconditions. Stay strong or remain silent, we can’t afford not to fight!

  • edintexas

    While I can’t speak for krsnadas, I suspect both of us, who did not understand that you limited the application of the term acolyte, appreciate the information. I’ll keep it in mind in future. I’ll ignore the snarky title.