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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

The Rise of the Third Party

I have long criticized the calls of many disaffected conservatives for a third party and I maintain that position. The closest I have come to calling for a third party is to encourage tea party activists to take over the GOP from within.

External third parties are not, in my mind, a solution to anything, but a great enabler of Democrats.

Notwithstanding my opinion, I believe the GOP, should it adopt Mitch McConnell’s Pontius Pilate Act, will be sowing the seeds of its own destruction.

In short, a vote for McConnell’s Pontius Pilate Act will cause a serious third party problem for the GOP. And we’re already seeing signs of it.The best recent example is in New York. The Democrats fielded a “tea party” candidate and many disaffected voters voted for that guy as a protest vote. Consequently, even with all the other problems in the race, Democrats were able to capitalize on discord within the GOP — discord and distrust the GOP could not shake.

The McConnell Pontius Pilate Act is a clever way to kick the can down the road with McConnell gambling that he can become Senate Majority Leader and possibly, just possibly, have a Republican President in the White House.

The problem is the GOP, with McConnell in charge, showed no propensity to solve the problem the last time the GOP had all the power.

More so, voters who sent Republicans to Washington in 2010 sent them there to do two things: (1) get rid of Obamacare and (2) hold the line on federal spending — the first of which they have failed at spectacularly.

In Washington, McConnell is being greeted as a hero. In the heartland, he is viewed as one of those Washington politicians who have gotten too comfortable to make tough decisions. Tea Party activists see the McConnell Pontius Pilate Act as an example of everything wrong with Washington.

The debt will go up. Another commission to be ignored will be created. Cuts will come from growth rate of programs and accounting gimmicks, not actual cuts.

The politicos within the Republican Party who have taken up residence in Washington have lost touch with their constituents. The tea party activists are angry. No amount of sleeping on their office couches can rehabilitate a Republican Party that keeps insisting on driving up debt without significant cuts in spending.

If the House and Senate GOP pushes McConnell’s plan, many of the activists who helped the GOP in 2010 will be helping a third party in 2012. It’ll hurt the GOP’s Presidential candidate. It’ll hurt the Senate candidates. It’ll hurt the House candidates. It will hurt the Republican Party and embolden the Democrats.

In short, Mitch McConnell’s play may be good for him personally, but it will be suicide for the Grand Old Party and most of them don’t even see it coming.

COMMENTS

  • Spiral

    I disagree that if Congress passes the McConnell plan or something similar to it, to raise the debt ceiling, that this would result in signficant defection from the GOP to a right of center 3rd party in more than a handful of races.

    The reality is that almost every Republican is chomping at the bit ready to boot Obama out of the White House and replace him with a Republican.

    Raising the debt limit is simply not a top priority issue for most Americans. Sure, most Americans will, if asked if they think we should raise the debt limit, say “No.” That’s sort of like asking someone if they would prefer more credit card debt for their househoold or not.

    But the current emphasis by conservatives on raising or not-raising the debt limit is terribly misguided. Instead they need to focus on winning in 2012, the US Senate and the White House.

    Did the GOP blow it last time they controlled the White House, the US House and the US Senate? Sure.

    But remember that when the GOP squeaked by in 2000 (Bush narrowly beat Gore while the GOP lost seats in both the US House and US Senate), the GOP was still reeling from the Gingrich-Dole years, when they were accused by the Democrats of wanting to kill the elderly and starve the children. So, they ran as “compassionate conservatives,” and they never had a mandate for cutting government spending.

    Similarly, in the 2002 and 2004 elections, the GOP did get a mandate from voters to protect us against terrorism, but there was not a mandate to cut government spending.

    Now, however, the issue of debt and deficits and the economy overall is the main focus of the GOP.

    The debate we are having is whether the GOP should bet the rent money on cutting spending now, while the Democrats are still in control of the US Senate and the White House, or if the GOP should wait until they win the 2012 elections before they bet the rent money on cutting spending.

    I think it’s a no-brainer to wait until we win in 2012.

    For the simple reason that the Democrats are in power and it is their responsibility to deal with these economic and fiscal issues and it is not the GOP’s responsibility to make the Democrats into something they are not: Responsible and sane.

    Instead, the GOP should simply tell the voters for the next 18 months that if you want responsible and sane representation in Washington DC, one that can turn this horrible economy around, you must vote GOP.

    Simple.

    No haggling over 1.4 trillion in cuts with tax increases on corporate jets. No debating over who is or isn’t at fault for someone getting upset during budget negoatiations and walking out. No press conferences about which party to the budget talks is being more “flexible” and “adult-like.”

    None of that. Simply put the focus on where the Democrats are weak:

    Their crummy management of the economy.

  • fastfission

    I agree, Save the “conservatives vs the GOP fight” until 2012. Primaries will be a big factor then. It would be insane to risk a third party for the simple reason that it would guarantee 4 more years of absolute ruin for this country.

  • Adjoran

    And McConnell’s is unconstitutional – Congress cannot delegate its powers to the President, see for reference the “line item veto” court case.

    Still, to bring up third party talk just because the Senate Minority Leader proposes something you don’t like is a rather extreme and counterproductive reaction.

    Let there be no mistake: a “third party” movement this cycle would only help Obama’s reelection. This isn’t a matter of discussion or controversy. It’s just a fact.

    So personal pique at the Senate Minority Leader makes you want to reelect Obama? See a darned shrink – or save money and self-medicate with electroshock therapy. Easy to do, just some frayed wire and a wall socket and you’re there.

    The country will be safer for it.

  • bigredone

    Then in 2012, let’s wait until 2014. In fact, let’s build up our efforts on a ten-year timeline and make the tough decisions in the outlying years, and maybe the Democrats will self-destruct.

    You boys miss the point. Pontius McConnell is pushing us done the road to destruction by caving. The hysteria of the Left tells me everything I need to know. They are desperate for the money, just as desperate as the addict on the street. They need a fix, and Pontius is going to give it to them for FREE.

    In Kentucky in 2014, we will primary is sorry fanny, and he will be gone.

  • Doc Holliday

    The clear and present danger of the Left in this country must be stopped at all costs. These people are not like JFK, Clinton, or even Carter; they not only want to move the country to the left, they want to destroy the entire foundation.

    McConnell might be making a terrible mistake, but it also likely that he has a plan and has thought it through. If we abandon party leaders when the chips are down, we guarantee the socialists another victory, and quite possibly a long-term majority. There are structural changes happening in this country that quite possibly can not be reversed.

    I am not interested in placating intrenched DC politicos. On the other hand, we just won the Senate and McConnell was chosen to be the leader. If we activists try to tear the party apart now, we will end up losers and untrustworthy allies.

    What if Longstreet took his 1st Corps away from the field at Gettysburg because he did not believe Pickett’s Charge would be successful? Would he have helped his country? Would he have helped his cause?

    Sometimes you have to go along with your team even if you don’t agree with the plan. Sometimes loyalty can make a bad plan better, just because everyone sticks together. I don’t support blind loyalty, but I know at this point the left is together and ready to destroy us. If we splinter and tear each other apart before the battle begins, well; the ending will be no surprise. It is an ending I can not stomach.

    Red State at its best lets the Republicans know what the conservative wing is thinking. At its worst, it is a fickle friend that can turn down right nasty when one person decides to go rogue.

  • mikeymike143

    movement, and i oppose the idea of a third party whenever it is brought up. i would rather vote for the most conservative candidate in the republican primary and then vote republican in the general election.

    but mcconnell is not giving us republicans in the tea party anything to fight with. the main argument the third party advocates use is that there is no difference between the republican party and the democrat party, that they are on the really same side. to me that is complete nonsense. i very much dislike the paulbot and conspiracy fringe of our movement, and i personally think the best way to change the country toward conservatism is for the tea party to take over the republican party, one seat at a time.

    but this debt issue is the ”line in the sand” for us. you simply cannot give obama the right to raise the national debt without CUT CAP AND BALANCE or some kind of equivalent and not expect serious political consequences. i am not saying this as a threat. i am saying this as a conservative republican who knows how my tea party is going to take this. and this is also what erick knows.

    republicans, we elected you to cut spending last november. and for the life of me i can’t see how that message got misunderstood!!! if the republicans cave on this issue there are two scenarios they can hope for. neither one is good.

    1. every republican primary will be a full bore no holds barred primary like delaware and alaska. where we put every ounce of energy and financial resource into electing tea party candidates in the primary without worrying about how they will do in the general election. remember, we would rather elect 5 conservative republicans to the senate than have 10 moderate republicans there,

    2. we will support third party candidates. maybe not all out in 2012 because of our dislike of obama. but i would bet money that a democrat with an ”R” in front of his name like lugar will draw a conservative third party challenger even if he even manages to get through the no holds barred primary he will be facing. so take 20 points away from lugar that he would have gotten.

    remember, this is the number one issue to the tea party. we feel as strongly about this issue the way we did about obamacare in the last election. and all these wishy washy republicans who think it is good political strategy will be crying the blues when the elections roll around next year and this costs the republicans a golden opportunity to get both houses of congress. and don’t blame the tea party for being spoilers, blame the republicans in power who chose political success over principles, and ended up with neither.

  • ihateliberals

    the thrid Party movement is gaining speed. This is the same cop-out tht continues to allow Obama to do whatever he wants. The GOP won in 2010 only because of the return of the conservative vote. I have agreed with Erick from day one on how the conservatives need to regain power and tht would be from within the GOP. The GOP has been synonymous with conservatives for many many years. Basically until the Bush gang came into play. Daddy Bush setup the playing field for baby Bush. Both of these were RINO’s although we really didn’t have a term for it back then. John McCain was a big one. Through the years of Bush and Michael Steele in the RNC and Karl (I should be in Jail) Rove the conservatives have been told to just stay away. That is what happened in 2008 and you see what hat got us. This is absolutely the wrong time to start a third Party. Countries that have third parties have a horrible time of ever getting anything done because there is rarely a majority.

    The current power holders in the Republican Party, (I refuse to say leaders) think they can just push the conservatives aside and do wht they want. Wht they want is part of the problem. It isn’t much different than what Obama wants but with a slight twist. Mitt Romeny is proof of this in that he continues to be the front runner even though his campaign assistants have stated that Romney is n favor of most of Obamacare. The way the GOP is going we might as well just have one communistic Party and be done with it. The line between RINO republicans and Democrats is getting very think and almost unrecognizable. If Mitch McConnell acheives wht he is asking for i think he will be very surprise at what he gets. that wil be the demise of the GOP as we have known it. I just hope and pray that we can hold it together until after the 2012 elections. If not there might not be a 2015 election.

  • ihateliberals

    The image of low brow uneducated people is now being driven home by McConnell. People think that Kentuckians aren’t very smart if McConnell is the best they can send to DC. Although look what Arizona did by sending McCain back to DC. I don’t blame tht on the Arizonians though. That was the fault of Karl Rove and his anti-tea-party campaign. That campaign is what gave us Harry Reid back and lost the set in Delaware. The point is we need to shut Karl Rove, John Boehner, Eric Cantor, Mitch McConnell, Olympia Snowe and many many more RINO’s up. It is time for the Tea Party to take over the GOP and return it to it’s glory dys of being the Party of conservatives.

  • kervick

    The GOP won in 2010 because independents switched to the GOP NOT because more conservatives voted. Our misunderstanding of this condition continues to get us into trouble. We need to become the conservative centrist governing coalition in America.

    The Tea Party Movement represents an emerging new populist centrism. Our goal needs to be the gradual, purposeful destruction of Progressivism in America by galvanizing the independent conservative coalition to create a new normal.

  • ihateliberals

    I also believe that when push comes to shove most independents are conservatives. This is what cause most of the confusion. Secondly the Democrats don’t have this infighting over platform. Ithink another thing that most people are confused about is who the Tea Party is. yes most of the Tea Party is conservative republicans but a large portion is also conservative democrats and independents. The ony ones to get attacked is the Republican tea Party.

  • popster

    McConnell has sold out the mandate he and the rest of the conservatives were given in 2010. This should never be politics as usual, even though the progressives are still trying to make it that way. Seems Mr. cave in has bought into that idea.

  • swamphermit

    Never voted until mid-terms 2002, after registering first time as a Republican. Changed to Libertarian for the next election, 2 years later, because of the weakness the Republican congress showed. Changed back to Republican last year, to vote against Crist in the Republican primaries. The weak Republican congress is back, well, it appears it never left…

  • 6eorge Jetson

    Doing nothing results in a $1.6 Trillion per year spending cut. To keep spending at the current rate, the Dems need a $133 billion debt limit increase per month.

    So if Aug 2nd is armegeddon, then pass and offer them an option to avoid armegeddon. Say a two month extention ($266B increase in the debt ceiling) for some REAL, IDENTIFIED CUTs in THIS fiscal year (25% of the gap, or $66B). Then do it again in two months.

    The private sector can’t absorb $1.6 Trillion of GDP in a single year without enormous pain. Nor can we continue spending at a $1.6 Trillion deficit without ruin.

    So force something that is doable, real, immediate, and in the right direction.

  • rj145

    There is no need for a third party, With the Republican capitulation as the “loyal opposition” It is becoming clear that a vote either way would be of little consequence. A third party would only alter the statistics of defeat. Ultimately the victors are all the same: Washington insiders.

    The Republican cave in will surely re elect Obama.

  • edintexas

    For the younger set – Lee Atwater was a big time Republican political advisor, think a Karl Rove to W’s father. Atwater is most (in)famous for his advice to George H.W. Bush regarding offending 2d Amendment defenders. He allegedly told Bush “Don’t worry about the ‘Gunnies’, they have no place else to go. (on election day)” Bush 41 found the “Gunnies” did have somewhere else, though it wasn’t someplace to “go”, it was to stay home.

    I wonder who the Lee Atwater is in DC today, advising some of the Republican “Leadership” that the Conservative base has nowhere else to go? Personally I wouldn’t be likely to vote 3d party, but…

    By the way, Dana Perrino was on Fox and Friends this morning and, responding to a comment about McConnell’s idea being “Plan B”, she said it was more like “Plan S”, far down the list of options.

  • Viator

    From David Goldman aka Spengler

    Obama could stir a Tea Party crisis

    “President Barack Obama’s best hope of re-election lies in provoking Republicans to force the United States into technical default, engineering a brief but severe financial crisis in order to appear as crisis-manager-in-chief. The Tea Party movement may be marching into a political ambush, in which Obama will be able to portray the born-again budget-cutters as irresponsible fanatics who threaten to tip America into a new depression. The now unpopular president then would assume the role of national savior in time of crisis. ”

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/MG19Dj01.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_P._Goldman

  • edintexas

    You state “On the other hand, we just won the Senate and McConnell was chosen to be the leader.”

    When did that happen? Yes McConnell was elected Leader – Minority Leader. Harry Reid is still Majority Leader.

    Because you seem to misunderstand who controls the Senate, how much faith can we put in the message that McConnell has a plan and we shouldn’t rock the boat.

  • __t_i_m_o_t_h_y__

    Its not a D or R thing its a Country Class vs Ruling Class play we are seeing; McConnell is Ruling Class.

    We Country Class’ have made significant inroads on the Ruling Class in the House. The Senate will take longer–that is the nature of our government.

    In the Senate, look at our wins: Rubio, Johnson, Lee…we are displacing the Ruling class in the Senate.

    Do to seniority, the Ruling Class member McConnell floats a typical Ruling Class idea–this is to be expected.

    The solution is not third party but to finish what we started.

  • fpete13527

    The cowardly McConnell squish progressive “moderacy” core of the GOP is the problem, especially in the Senate. McConnell is certainly among the worst though, especially given he is in a “leadership (not) position.”

    There has been no significant stand that the GOP Senate has taken that they have held firm on since the Dems/Obama took over Senate and WH. They caved and squished on everything from bailouts to Obamacare passage to Lame Duck caving to failure at stopping Obamacare.

    I am not for a third Party and I don’t believe Erick is….even now……with this disgraceful cowardly caving from McConnell.

    I do however feel that if the McConnell plan is adopted that it DOES lead to the end of the Republican Party as known today.

    As to whether we can shift Republican Party back to a Conservative core now or later…..McConnells plan does major damage to any scenario.

    McConnell’s non-actions and non-plan, make the work to get the GOP right 500 times harder,….. if not near impossible.

    McConnell’s non-actions undermine and weaken all positive forward momentum for Conservative activists. His actions won’t bother McCain types though. They are probably completely content right now.

    The “No Labels” groups and the “progressive GOP moderacy groups” will have no problem with McConnell and probably consider his non-actions as great success.

    The truth is that the McConnell non-action plan supports Obama/Dems re-election…..period.

    Republicans need to not support McConnell. They need to hold the line in the sand here until significant spending cuts are made with NO increase in taxes.

  • bk

    “McConnell might be making a terrible mistake, but it also likely that he has a plan and has thought it through.

    I am not interested in placating intrenched DC politicos.”

    You don’t consider McConnell to be an entrenched DC politico?

    Here’s the problem as I see it with these long-time politicians. The Republican ones – regardless of whether they were good early on – eventually end up liking it there and doing whatever it takes to stay, which means caving in the end regardless of how much they preen in front of the camera. You can plug in McConnell, Hatch, Lugar – any of them who’ve been there forever. The Democratic old-timers just learn craftier ways to get their way. All they care about is winning, period.

  • bk

    When Republicans come out as a wishywashy Democratic Lite party, they lose. When Republicans show principles and conservative ones at that, they win.

  • williamofdayton

    This money is taken out of the private sector in the first place, am I wrong? I do agree that the house GOP holds all the cards. I think they should hold out on debt limit hold O’ to the fourteenth “pay bond holders first”, if there is a default it will be his fault. There is plenty left over for SS and military pay and by now everyone knows this, or should. If they hold ‘em and don’t fold I think we win because they automaticaly force a cut in the budget bt 25% or so. Dare O’ to make good on his bluff and scare tactics,put him on the defensive. if he makes good on his bluff he loses if he doesn’t the GOP wins.The only way to lose now is to get scared and follow the Senate GOP off a cliff again.

  • runner12

    Historically, third parties have always been a disaster and they always will be. But by the stubborn insistance of the DC elite to play politics, they may very well be driving people right into the quagmire of the third party scenario.

    If the newly elected House members hold the line, they may be able to avoid this fate. Then we can focus on purging the McConnell-types from the party one primary at a time with quality Conservative candidates.

    The choice is theirs to make. I am praying they choose to stand on principle and hold the line.

  • pdawk

    and I don’t like his plan as written, but there are some political realities here that are going to kill Republicans come 2012 if we default.

    First off, we only control one house of congress. If we had control of the Senate as well we could push bill after bill on Obama’s desk, forcing him to make very public decisions that would hurt him politically. We can’t even get a bill through the Senate for him to veto, which allows him to stay above the fray.

    The reality is that when we default, the stock market is going to tank. People are going to overreact and that plays into the Presidents hands. He will be able to control the news flow by setting up tv appearances, controling the flow of news and having the majority of the media in his back pocket.

    Obama will get out there and say that he tried to compromise but the Republicans refused to close loopholes to keep the evil corporations from milking the tax system, and that Republicans refused to let the super rich pay a slightly higher share of taxes. Like it or not, this sells to the general public. They don’t sit online or watch Fox news all day. They don’t realize that we are simply stifling job growth by increasing taxes on job creators. Most of the public is more concerned about what can you do for me now rather than what can I do for my country.

    Now I expect to hear in response that we need to get our message out to the general public. That is impossible when the entire journalistic machine is opposed to America hearing your arguments. We also have primary that will pit conservatives against RINO’s. Our message from our own candidates will be split, and that is what will be covered.

    Like it or not, our best hope for reforming this country is to win both houses of congress and the presidency in 2012. If we do that, we can enact the real reforms we need to fix this country. If we suffer a blood bath after that occurs because of angry seniors or brainless independents, the so be it. At least in that scenario we will have changed the financial trajectory of this country forever.

    There is something to be said to give this economy to Obama and the Dems for 2012 and let it be the noose that hangs them.. I don’t want a 2/3 vote as it is way to high a bar, but I don’t think McConnell is nearly as foolish and pandering as many of you make him out to be. I think in a way, he is the one guy who senses the political reality and knows that nothing will happen unless we control all branches of government. I just don’t know that giving such broad powers to the president is the way to accomplish the goal.

  • ihateliberals

    just saying it a little differently. Conservatives are what makes the USA the USA.. Regardless of what the Party ws called the conservatives sooner or later win out. We are the only ones that when we put our principles to work tht things get better, It’s not until the left gets in power and dismantles things that things get worse. the only solutions tht the left hve is to dismantle what is making the economy grow. They want everyone to be equal and by that I mean dependent on them. 2012 is going to be an interesting and scary year. I pray that something will happen to propel the GOP in a conservative posture into power.

  • averagevoterdotcom

    we cannot win the war one-handed.
    think tactical but plan strategic.

  • gunslingr45

    what will you do Erick if the nom is Mitt? No more McCains for me.

    Socialism, billions dead, but they keep trying it….

  • carolina

    One election was a good start. 2012 will be the election where we get to take the senate, and hopefully the president also.
    We need to keep on keeping on.
    I think BO and the dems are doing a great job of increasing the ranks of the TEA party. I look forward to 2012.

  • unsk

    For those of you so out of touch that think a millions of Americans won’t leap at a third party if this Pontius Pilate Act passes, think again.

    Most , and I mean most Republicans I know are thoroughly disgusted with the Republican Party Establishment who have enabled and assisted the Left at nearly every turn to take this country down the road to ruin. This country is in a survival threatening crisis on many fronts, yet we hear only squishy me too solutions from the Party Establishment.

    There is a great chasm growing in this country between a Ruling Aristocracy and it’s beneficiaries that can only think of what’s in it for themselves like Mitch McConnell, and those productive individuals that made this country great. The Republican Establishment is thoroughly connected to this Aristocracy and owe their allegiance first to it.

    That is why we no longer see real solutions from Republicans. Are any Establishment Republicans really interested in cleaning up the entrenched thieving corrupt mess that is the TBTF banks, or thoroughly reforming our regulatory system that is strangling small business, or seriously cutting government spending, or seriously fighting the WOT, or even lifting a finger to defend the Constitution? Hell No! In fact, when one looks at the current crop of Republican Presidential contenders, not a single one has a comprehensive plan to fix this economy. So why would we think it is so important to elect one of these knuckleheads?

    In a democracy, sometimes things have to get really bad before the populace wakes up and throws the bums out. A squishy Pub, like Romney as our next President, would likely only make permanent all those Leftist initatives and programs I loath and detest, so why not a Third Party?

  • averagevoterdotcom

    remember that 2010 was only the first quarter of this football game.
    we are now in the 2nd quarter driving for more points to be further ahead by halftime – 2012.

  • Scope

    http://spectator.org/archives/2011/07/18/dont-fumble-the-debt-ceiling

    Mr. Babbin makes a very good point that focusing on Cut, Cap and Balance is a foolish exercise for the House to even consider this week. It’s a waste of precious time. As has been noted above, we don’t control the Senate or the WH, and whatever the House passes will find defeat in the Senate. I agree that the House will look like a bunch of “Bumblers” as the bill will only die right there on the floor, and we are back at the starting point, and in the eleventh hour, when the worst bills get passed.

    Again, as has been said above, it would be much more wise to concentrate on winning the Senate and WH in 2012, and expanding the number of seats in the House. At that point the Republicans have the opportunity to pass what is best for the country.

    Remember, McConnell didn’t only become a squish this year, look at his foolish actions during Obamacare when he refused to use every means possible to stop it. His adding amendments was a collosal failure. Yet, with the new incoming Congress this year, even those like Paul, Lee and DeMint, they all voted to re-elect him as minority leader, knowing he would always fold, and has no fighting capabilities. Why didn’t the newbies, at least, fight to have him replaced with someone who had the will to fight? Yet now, here we are again, slamming him for what we knew he has been all along. It’s counterproductive. To title an article “The Rise of the Third Party” is destructive in the extreme. Many people simply gloss over headlines, and don’t bother to read the article. It appears that RS is in favor of the rise of a third party by the title alone. It creates an even wider split within the GOP, and there is definitely a split, between those that have no focus on anything but the economy, and those that know instinctively that while Reid and Obama still have the power that they do, the conservatives have little chance of pushing their agenda.

    I have the answer to all of those asking “If not now when”?, the when is when we have control of the House, Senate and WH, and actually have the ability to do some really big things. It ain’t gonna happen before then, as Obama probably has cases of veto pens itching to be used.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    but I can see it happening especially with the most active element in the tea party. If and when that does happen, I’m sticking with the GOP not because I love them or think they are doing a great job, just because I think they will be the most effective form of the lesser of two evils. That may not be a bumper sticker for us, but thats the reality of it.

  • Bill S

    Do NOT use Redstate as a platform to promote the idea of a third party. Erick makes it clear at the beginning of this diary that he is not promoting such an idea. The Posting Rules make it clear that such promotion is off limits.

    This diary simply points out that such a movement might be a result of the current GOP actions. It doesn’t say that’s a good thing. Because, it’s not.

  • Tbone

    He really can’t be this stupid for free.

  • Scope

    “So force something that is doable, real, immediate, and in the right direction.”

    Until we have control of the House, Senate and WH, “doable” is the operative word. Anything else if just a foolish waste of time. There is a segment of the voting population that want everything now, seemingly forgetting that we can’t accomplish unrealistic goals with control of just the house.

  • Tbone

    It is the “Democrats and Republicans are all the same, I’m staying home and not voting for any of these crooks party.”

    It will be just large enough to hand the election to Obama.

  • eldstenorge

    It is about time the party wakes up and sees it cannot continue pushing us around. McConnell, pure and simple, must go. I happen to still have a conscience and am an American before a Republican. I will vote for a third party if I have to after having voted mostly Republican for over 40 years. I am just tired of the games and the thumbing the nose at us because we are conservatives and they think they have us in the bag. That bag is beginning to leak.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    But it’s all about your ego isn’t it?

    Worthless.

  • http://www.incredibleco.ning.com Incredible

    Republicans only control 1 house. If they played this right, the entire onus of the shutdown will fall on the party that controls the Senate and the White House and still couldn’t come up with a workable (by passing in the House) plan. How do you blame the party that only controls 1/2 of 1/3 of the government?

    Republicans were hitting on this message earlier and they should continue to hammer it home while also passing a plan of their own. That shows that they have a plan, a line in the sand, and that they must be met half-way. If the Dems can’t come to terms, the blame is all theirs.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Tuck tail and run away? Duck your head while serious men step up and try to win the election?

  • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

    Erick has been correct in calling the McConnell plan a Pontius Pilate pass-the-buck sellout. I have harshly criticized his bad idea.

    However, we should NOT overstate the loss here, should the GOP go the Mcconnell route, nor should that lead to worse outcomes down the road. McConnell genuinely believes:
    1. The Congress could not get a GOOD deal out of the President, as any big deal meant tax hikes
    2. The negotiations had not gotten obama to come forth with a specific plan, and would not do so.
    3. The Congress would not and should not go past Aug 2nd without a debt ceiling raise, since the alternative would have many negative consequences for the economy and for the Republicans politically.

    On #1 and #2, McConnell is right, and conservatives have said as much: We can never get a ‘good’ deal out of Obama, our visions are vastly different.

    This last arguable point is the key sticking point. Many of us want to stand ground, insist on a good deal or no deal. And given #2, that meant an almost certain ‘shutown/default’ … McConnell assessed the risks and options, and decided that pass-the-buck was the best way forward. He doesnt want default. All this inside-beltway-type calculation has led to a bad idea. But I am writing this, even though I dislike his proposal, to explain that overstating its downside and letting it cause a deeper rift in the GOP is making a small error into a larger one.

    To assess the downside, ask: What better outcome can we expect?
    The answer is that the BEST we could expect the Obama / Reid side to agree to was about $2 trillion in spending cuts in the deal, with no tax hikes. And even that number was a moving target, and press leaks over the Cantor/Obama tussle suggest. we were debating with jello.

    Can we force cut, cap and balance? We’ll vote on it but the BBA is not likely to get 2/3rds. We dont run the Senate. Then what? Standoff? Yup. So we go to standoff and by mid-August social security recipients will be screaming and/or whoever else the Obama admin can use to make the situation politically painful. The uncertainty will be painful enough for the markets, etc. Will that environment lead to a BETTER outcome for Republicans? On this point, we need to take off our partisan hats and think coolly for a second; the pressure to ‘do something’ will be immense and the media/Dem complex will ensure the ‘narrative’ is disfavorable to the Republicans. Panic, at least among enough Republicans to cave and make a RINO/Dem deal, is likely.

    In such an environment, we are NOT likely to get what we want, or even 50%.

    Would the House and Senate GOP stand their ground? Could you get a majority or enough in House and Senate to stop something WORSE in a few weeks? If McConnell assessed ‘no’ then we need to consider that perhaps he gauged right. One might argue that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that RINO/squish/moderate/sellout/insert-label-here Republicans would not be firm now because, uh, they would not be firm later, but there it is.

    We want our Republican leaders to be Braveheart-style warriors, but, alas, they are like the noble lords, ready to cut-n-run.

    Rep Jordan made an astute observation on Sunday talk shows. He pointed out that the ONLY spending that this Congress can lock in place is FY2012 and first part of following year. About 15 months. Anything beyond that is changeable. Which means that any promises of spending cuts made in the out years really has little meaning except to change budget baselines that are changeable annually.

    What this further means, if you analyze it thoroughly, and if you take tax increases off the table: The main ‘concessions’ we can extract for the debt ceiling increase is reducing the FY2012 budget. THAT is our leverage. THAT is the gain possible. $2T or $4T or $9T in cuts matters less than the simple question of: What will we spend between now and the next election?

    But that begs a question: Won’t we be able to extract those concessions through the FY2012 budget process itself?

    The answer is YES.

    The final outcome of the analysis is this: McConnell’s plan will, if strengthened by the Reid addition of $1.5 trillion in ‘cuts’ (ala Biden) be a ‘deal’ not that much worse than the Biden talk deal, that is, worse, but not significant downside from the dishwater-deal they were going to come to anyway. It’s a ‘deal’ that cuts the Republican ‘losses’ from potential panic post-default, ensures that Republicans arent blamed for a default, and at the same time closes off the opportunity for real fundamental shift in fiscal policy.

    But is that opportunity cost real? The fundamental failure of McConnell-Reid to deal seriously, long-term with our over-spending is not as much due to Republican cravenness than it is a structural result of Obama in the White House and Reid running the Senate. With them in power NO REAL REFORM IS POSSIBLE. The ‘opportunity cost’ of fiscal responsibility is an illusion. We cant get there, yet.

    The loss? In REAL terms, the loss was an opportunity to get FY2012 done on conservative/Republican terms. We had limited leverage there, and could have done more. And yet, FY 2012 budget awaits. EVERY SPENDING POLICY DISCUSSION CAN AND WILL BE REGURGITATED IN THE FY2012 BUDGET DEBATE.

    IT ALSO REMAINS THAT CUT, CAP AND BALANCE ARE VIABLE POLICY PROPOSALS THAT CAN BE PUSHED VIA THE FY2012 BUDGET FIGHT.

    So my final advice is: Don’t let the family quarrel over McConnell’s pass-the-buck deal lead to divorce.
    Keep your eye on FY2012 spending, the main thing we can really change with Obama in the WH. Keep the cut, cap and balance idea alive – it WILL pass the House, and if we dont press it now to success, there are other times to press it and elements to get through as part of any ‘deal’. Counts the heads of who stands firm and who quakes; we will need to do the weeding out process in due course – IN THE FAMILY (aka in the primaries).

    Stay with the Republican party and stay with unified conservative agenda items that can win. Be firm but not brittle, for that way begets strength.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    People need to quit making excuses. Take responsibility for themselves.

    Third party whiners are pathetic. They really are. They’re the weak links in the chain that’s trying to pull this country right.

    Wishy-washy, unreliable losers. That’s the third party movement.

  • Tbone

    I have voted nothing BUT Republican for over 40 years and this guy is expressing the same type of frustration I and Erick are feeling when I see McConnell sell not only conservatives but the majority of the Republican Party down the river.

  • billrandolph

    Erick has a knack for picking the wrong solution. Apparently he does not understand the techniques of infiltration by those who now control both major political parties. In his book Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World In Our Time, Carroll Quigley noted that ‘…J.P. Morgan kept a foot in both camps…’. The purpose of which was to ‘…direct them both in the same direction…’.
    As to the ‘conservative position of the RP, that’s a bunch of hogwash. If that were true we should have had some reversals of public policy during Republican control of both houses & the presidency. Nada, nothing, zilch. Besides, it was the Republican party that sponsored the “money trust” meeting on Jekyll Island where Senator Nelson Aldrich (R) & grandfather to Nelson Rockefeller, met with representatives from the Rothschilds & the N.Y. banking cartel to hammer out the details of the Federal Reserve System in 1910. The Federal Reserve is our country’s third central bank. Only with power beyond congressional reach could such a group thumb its collective noses at the congress when asked to produce records of who received the “stimulus” money. He’s living in a dream world from hence I don’t think he is capable of waking. To restore our republic, it would take a complete metamorphosis of the republican party along with an education of our citizens on the original intent of our Constitution, Bill of Rights and from hence they came. Without education of our citizens, it does not matter which party is elected. There will be no change of direction, at least in the immediate future, as long as we continue to elect those from the two major political parties. The same insider group keep regurgitating the same old worn out ‘conservatives’ ala Newt Gingrich, et al. What a bunch of losers. Well as someone is quoted to have said (possibly Antony Sutton or a take off of his book, “The Best Enemy Money Can Buy”), “…we elect the best politicians we pay for…”. Perhaps Erik should read Andrew Jackson’s letter to the congress in which he explains his rationale for vetoing the renewal charter for our 2nd central bank. You can find it on the internet for FREE–SO READ IT. Further, a central bank is one of the ten planks of the Communist Manifesto by Engels & Marx. A close reading of which will show we have implemented ALL TEN OF THE PLANKS IN SOME DEGREE OR MANNER OR ARE IN THE PROCESS OF IMPLEMENTING, e.g. the U.N. Agenda 21 which would decimate private property rights supposedly protected under Amendment 5 of the Bill of Rights. If you have not read the Communist Manifesto, READ IT FOR YOURSELF. So, in conclusion, it is the republican party that has aided & abetted the socialist take over of our country & the democrats have aided & abetted that take over as well. Time for a real change back to our Constitution. There are, in my judgment, at least three major steps required to accomplish this goal, they are, 1) Repeal the Federal Act & return to honest money; 2) Repeal the 16th Amendment that equates to economic slavery and 3) Repeal the 17th Amendment returning to the state legislatures the authority to determine who represents them in the Senate of the U.S. Many believe that neither the 16th or 17th were ever truly ratified but only designated as having been ratified. Even if so, the courts apparently will not allow these challenges to see the light of day. Attainment of these three goals would JUMP START our country back to fiscal reality. Without these three basic changes our country will not and WILL NOT survive as a Constitutional Republic. Once accomplished, taxation would revert back to the apportionate method as described in Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution. That is, NO DIRECT TAXING OF AMERICAN CITIZENS BY CONGRESS. This would automatically SUNSET every piece of revenue raising legislation, bar none. Inconvenient to the politicians, absolutely. That’s how we would keep our DEBT under control. Without the “gravy” train, the special interest lobbyists would, like MacArthur’s old soldiers, dry up and just fade away.

    Bill “Randolph” Wayland, USMC ’53-’61, Vice Chairman, Constitution Party of Florida

  • billrandolph

    CORRECTIONS:

    On the three goals–ommitted the word “Reserve” for Federal “Reserve” Act.

    …without these three basic changes our country “can” not and WILL NOT…
    “can” in lieu of will.

    Bill “Randolph” Wayland, USMC ’53-’61, Vice Chairman, Constitution Party of Florida

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    third party that is rising up. Where they all really need to go, is back to thier already established 3rd party called the libertarian party where they belong.

  • pantera

    Great.We’re one election away from having conservative leadership,in both branches of government, and like brat’s who want to quit and forfeit the game cause the other team play’s too hard,Conservatives find a way to prove the left correct. That tea party is flaky.

  • Scope

    The Constitution Party is even less prominent in the world of politics than even the Libertarian Party is, and that’s not saying much.

  • Scope

    if the title to this article can be changed. I understand that reading the body of the article clearly states that this is not a call for a third party, but it opens the door for those that want to move in this direction, as has been evidenced by some of the comments. People are very quick to pick and choose those certain words that they want to hear, and this opens the door to exactly that.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    tbone, and a rino troll at that. See how you like it?

  • rj145

    There has been much discussion about the need to take the Senate and the Presidency in 2012. If the pathetic performance of the Republican house following the 2010 elections is any indicator, there is no reason to expect Independents and Tea Party voters to enable those goals. Thus far is all we have gotten is cheap rhetoric and the capitulation of a weak leadership. Not exactly the ingredients for a much needed victory.

  • Bill S

    OBAMA! FOUR MORE YEARS!!

    Yeah. Voting 3rd party will really solve our problems.

  • Goldwater_Conservative

    the way to ask the question is where would we be right now if the GOP didn’t have the house? The answer is in the abyss.

  • earlgrey

    It is sort of how I took the article to begin with. The news from Republicans has been so bad, lately that part of me wouldn’t be all that suprirsed to hear calls for a new party on Red State — even thought that would be an incredibly stupid move.

  • red_oakster

    Let’s stipulate for a start that McConnell’s strategy is problematic.

    The question remains how Republicans can enact their agenda through the control of the House and nothing else.

    The related question is what happens when the cut, cap and balance initiative dies in the Senate? If 40 conservatives in the House refuse to participate in negotiations, the final deal ultimately will reflect the Democratic votes that will fill the gap to get to 218.

    Babbin frankly is much closer to a solution.

  • Tbone

    Though having a vending machine of stupidity may be a good business model as it seems to be in demand.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    What a freaking joke.

  • joayn

    2010 congressional race, district 08.

    Gabrielle Giffords (D): 138,280
    Jesse Kelly (R): 134,124
    Steven Stoltz (LBT): 11,174

    As far as I’m concerned, anyone who continually votes Independent/Libertarian in the general election should have their opinions treated accordingly – absolutely worthless, just like their vote.

    Link:

    http://www.azsos.gov/election/2010/General/Canvass2010GE.pdf

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I’ll lighten up only when there are no longer important issues at stake in the elections we have.

  • red_oakster

    They have been doing it effectively for weeks now.

  • funwithknives

    many reasons, and wheather you appreciate it or not,This Persuasion does have some redeeming features for all correspondents on these lines. But in as far as running a third party goes , no real success can be pointed to. Bull Moose got us Woodrow Wilson. “Here’s The Deal” got us Billy Clinton. Various Third party matches invariably favor Progressives, in meaningful elections. Ron Paul saw the seeming futility,and declared/ran Republican, but judging by current posters and some informed comments he does not pay attention to many details and this COULD be likened to the “Libertarians as Herding Cats/many directions” theory.
    I have come to accept the reality of ceasing to shoot for 100% of anything political,as it just is not rooted in historical reality. Even if you do not agree with A View or a few of same, does your possible affiliation do harm, to others? Can you stay engaged and work to the best of your Creator-Given abilities? Can you “Play Well With Others”? Primarily: Have you had enough ? Can you keep your Basic Instincts suppressed , to get what we all want and must have: NO MO’ BHO, and his gang of acolytes.Think of the OutCome of Four more years, and know that it Cannot Happen. Open up and Know: Utopia in any form is an illusion. Always consider , WHAT IS POSSIBLE? Try saying That, once a day,and realize so many ask the same question. THERE lies your consensus,and your/our strength. Can I even get ONE AMEN? (When is a fraction a majority?)

  • YnotNOW

    exactly correct.

    Be glad for what little we are able to achieve in 2011 (which is mostly obstructing the Dem/Lib agenda of tax-and-spend), and work toward a majority in 2012 that can go much further.

  • acat

    such as John Anderson siphoning votes from Carter and Ralph “green” Nader siphoning from Al Gore. Third parties draw voters from the most ideologically similar major party, i.e. greens suck votes from Dems, Libertarians from the GOP.

    Utopia is impossible, dystopia is all too easy. … I’ll take Conservatives who want smaller government at least some of the time …

    Mew

  • funwithknives

    I know some things from experience. First, you excavate to find Good Firm Bearing and lay foundations. Nov., 2010 was That Phase.(Call IT ONE) Nowhere near complete yet ,as large projects take a while. (THIS IS a Biggie,NO?) Now we build Above Ground, with purpose, and intelligently.This is where Conservative takes on it’s meaning. To look at a situation and think through difficulties is part and parcel of what you and I stand for and we prove it in part by Standing, here and now. To Me, “Building Toward the Future’ is like many other projects I have witnessed and worked on. Truisms are just that, because They Are True.Think of all the many types of people and different trades, all working to a common end. To What Purpose? : Gettin’ Paid! What is our Goal and Purpose: I THINK we all know that one by heart and soul. We want to “Get Paid”, but the reward is not only monetary. In construction, one primary aim for many projects is to make a situation or property more functional and more productive. Are we not less functional and less productive, NOW? Are we to fractionalize and be self-defeating?

    Comment all you like, as is your right,and to some, obligation. But what plan will WIN? What is feasible and achievable in the short time available to us? PHASE TWO is The Building’s framing and interior mechanicals. AKA Nov. 2012. What’s your trade and are you applying for work?

  • funwithknives

    remind you of something you forgot .(Mine hook me in the leg for Food but you get the drift, 10-4?) One is just a voice, talking to itself. Any common ground invariably finds takers, and this is what ought to be sought.

    I totally forgot about Nader. Maybe we all should send him a Thank-You card. for 2000, and add: “Dear Ralph: How about Just One More in 2012?” How would Barry demonize THAT?

    Phissst!

  • Scope

    One for your observation about fractions not being majorities, and, one for sitting squarely in the camp of Obama must go at all costs. Amen, and Amen.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Ralph Nader, OTOH, gave us GWB. Gore would have easily won at least Florida and his plurality would have been a majority of the popular vote.

  • wbb1950

    Eric–your analysis is accurate. The base is not stupid. They know that Obama is over a barrel politically. They think it is madness for the leader of their party in the senate to throw him a lifeline. Assuming arguendo that the debt ceiling must be raised by August 2, this is not the way to do it. The solution is the one Gingrich proposed, which leaves the GOP intact, saves social security and keeps Obama on the hook. I know Mitch, through a fundraiser for him years ago with Microsoft people and the then Boeing president Mullaly, and all I can tell you is seeing what he is doing now makes me deeply suspicious of the man. The impact of his improvident proposal is as you say. It can lead to efforts to form a third party which would sap the political strength of the Republican Party, and it can also cause people to become sufficiently dispirited with their party that they do not show up to vote. Any way you look at it, McConnell’s proposal is a poison pill for the Republican Party and the country. More the deponent sayeth naught.

  • unclefred

    nt

  • Bill S

    Ross Perot gave us Bill Clinton for 8 years. Similarly, the electorate that voted for Perot was trying to “teach the GOP a lesson”. Brilliant.

  • bethrorie

    The second half of your comment is mostly correct. But you’ve forgotten Senator DeMint. He’s just gotten more conservative.

  • acat

    While Anderson didn’t draw enough votes in the general to matter, i.e. statistically insignificant, historically Anderson indicated that the centrist RINO positions frequently taken by the GOP were not getting traction.

    This remains true – when a GOPer runs as a RINO, they lose. Anderson’s a rather nice example of this.

    Mew

  • unclefred

    Reagan won a number of eastern states that he would have lost had Anderson not been in the race; Mass is a good example.

    The Reagan sweep east of the Mississippi river, caused the media to call the election for Reagan hours before the polls closed on the west coast. The republicans gained a large number of seats in the west as a result.

  • lineholder

    Yes, he is one of the champions for conservatism, and I’m very grateful that we have him.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Those are the real whack jobs.

  • caboose

    need to be properly placed in file thirteen. Spiral, should be careful in throwing arowing Non-Facts. The Republicans took over the Hourse of Reps in 1994 and there never was a “Sqeak by” election during the period 1994 thru 2006 when they lost the house. As for Edintexas, Lee Atwater ran George H W Bush’s first presidental campaigne and did an outstanding job in getting Bush 1 elected. His untimely death,, was a major factor in Bush 1 losing a second term.
    Bush 1 was totally lost without him and run one of the worst presidental campaigns in history ending with his defeat. We need an Atwater now!

  • uselogic

    or nothing to counter the false propaganda, cowering in its wake. Just pitiful that we, the grassroots, have to do it for them.

  • Tbone

    :-)

  • littlehouse18

    but I am not going to let my own sense of betrayal cause me to let our country self-destruct. Four more years of Obama will destroy us. Getting back at the RINOS by going third party would be bitter consolation indeed.

    I plan to contribute to individual deserving Republican candidates and the SCF. I will support conservatives in the primaries against RINOS. We have to clean house from within – a process which is long overdue, yet now it is too late to do otherwise. Splitting our opposition to the Dems gives them their complete socialist takeover.

  • unsk

    The fault line in the GOP is between those who favor the large multinational corporations and the TBTF banks versus those who favor small business and Main Street. There was a time, when the Big Banks and Corporations were more patriotic, that the interests of each side largely coincided. No more.

    The multinational global interests don’t mind Obamacare, like the TBTF /GM Bailouts, don’t want spending cut, definitely do not want regulations cut because those regulations help snuff out any potential competition, wouldn’t dream of prosecuting the BIg Banks for their horrendous fraud. and of course want special preferential treatment for their cronies. Essentially Crony Capitalism in all it’s glory.

    Small Business and Main Street absolutely hate Obamacare, the Bailouts, our out of control government spending, our predatory overwrought Nanny Police State regulatory system and of course want justice for those who have corrupted our financial and other regulatory systems.

    These interests cannot be reconciled. The GOP must choose between them. So far the GOP establishment has decidedly chosen the big donations from large corporations over the multitude of comparatively tiny donations from Main Street .

    The multi-national corporations and banks often represent foreign interests because their money and profits come from overseas. Their interests not only often don’t represent America ; they often want to harm or control America.

    Not so very long ago, I thought of the Democrats as the sole party of Special Interests. Now I’m afraid the GOP is just as beholden to Special Interests as the thieving commie democrats. Unless the GOP radically changes its tune and behavior, a third party is not only a certainty but a necessity.

    We need again a party to represent the interests of America, not the tweedle dee tweedle dom parties of the Special Interests.

  • tea4me

    …tell it to Mike Lee, Rand Paul, and Marco Rubio.

    In fact…you can mention it to Mike Castle while you’re at it too

  • Doc Holliday

    A) you always seem to be a jagoff, particularly for a newb.

    B) see A.

  • Doc Holliday

    but if anyone thinks I contradicted myself, I simply did not explain it well, or they were not really trying to understand my position.

    Let me make it even more simple. It is too late to change leaders now, it McConnell’s plan has any chance of hurting Obama, it is better than no plan.

    BTW, I think some here need to wake up to reality. If we pass the debt limit, Obama and the MSM will trash the GOP 24/7. They will say we are not sending checks to grandma and our troops, because that is what Obama plans to do. The Republicans will be blamed, just like they were blamed in 1994.

    People say Americans are smarter now, but they are not. People say we have the internet and Fox, so the truth will get out; but it will not get out to enough people.

    Think of it this way, when the kids run out of Kool Aide, do they care if you have to borrow the sugar from next door?

    On the other hand, if Congress raises the debt ceiling with few cuts, Obama will get blamed for big spending. The economy is in the crapper, the stock market is weak, inflation is rising, and this goof ball wants to tax and spend. We have him right where we want him, so I don’t think a circular firing squad at this point would be “timely”.

  • Spiral

    There’s the Barry Goldwater example, for one.

    There’s also more recent examples. Harry Reid recently won reelection against a conservative Republican candidate for the US Senate seat in Nevada. Also, there’s Colorado and Delaware, where the conservative did not win.

    So, this idea that conservatives win every general election is incorrect.

    Of course, there are counter-examples. Marco Rubio and Pat Toomey won in 2010.

    In any case, we should not oversimplify the political terrain in which we live.

  • Spiral

    You can argue that McConnell has selected the wrong tactics. But there isn’t going to be another leadership batte until after the November 2012 elections.

    By that time, McConnell’s tactics might have proved themselves correct, if we have a President Elect Bachmann and a net gain of 7 Republican US Senators.

  • Doc Holliday

    I think Rand Paul would do a better job as minority leader. But my goal right now is to defeat Obama and the libs next year. A third party, then probably a fourth, will ensure Demonrat destruction of this nation.

    A third or fourth party would be fine if we we had a parliamentary system. We could squabble every day but the day we elect a government, that would be a lot of fun for many here lol.

  • aesthete

    but we still need to pick new “leaders”, and pronto. To continue with the Civil War analogy, we gotta get rid of George McClellan sooner, rather than later.

  • Doc Holliday

    .

  • aesthete

    about which is the bigger brood of stupid and ineffective malcontents is a fools’ errand, if you ask me.

  • Doc Holliday

    I think McClellan er McConnell has been a weak leader. We needed someone who could win the debate. But since his back up plan is likely to happen, what do we do about it?

    I actually see some positives coming out of the plan as I understand it. We don’t let Obama and the MSM stop paying our troops and blame Republicans. Yet we get to blame him for doing nothing about the debt. We still get to offer legislation cutting the debt, we still get to vote on a reduced budget.

    Right now Obama needs to use people’s ignorance, fear and greed to his benefit. If we can take that weapon away from him, we can attack with our best weapon, the economy and the future of the nation.

    One last thing, this is supposed to be a “back up plan”. I totally agree we should not give in. We should fight every step of the way, except if the time comes when it is better to out maneuver them :)

  • Scope

    And with the Ron Paul R3volution, and their insistence on forcing paulibraltarianism on us I suspect there will be many more races like the one you mentioned. I agree with acat, we need to draft Ralph Nader back into running. Perhaps we can also get Cynthia McKiney to run on the Communist party ticket.

  • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

    That’s one lesson here.

    The way out of that trap is to be firm but reasonable.

  • aesthete

    My concern is that Republicans will keep kicking the can when in power: I would like to burn a fire under the feet of some of the Republicans in leadership who suffer most from this tendency, to prevent that from happening.

  • bk

    “If we pass the debt limit, Obama and the MSM will trash the GOP 24/7.”

    Obama and the MSM will trash the GOP no matter what the GOP does. That’s why I think Perry getting in will make a lot of people happy – he’ll be the first to admit “they” will hate us no matter what we do, so we might as well do the right thing. Trying to make the MSM happy gives us people like the majority of the GOP Senators.

  • Doc Holliday

    we know Repubs are good at kicking the can down the road. We must continue to pressure them and challenge them. McConnell would not even have needed a “plan B” if he had won in the arena of ideas. He has not helped the party, he has not influenced the nation he is acting from a position of weakness.

  • bk

    What’s to keep Obama from deciding that, knowing the GOP doesn’t have the cojones to “call his bluff”, he should announce April 1 that if the GOP refuses to address “revenue issues” by July 1, he’ll have no choice but to stop paying SS and the troops, given how the Bush-Boehner-McConnell deficit is killing the economy.

    Wouldn’t pretty much every argument in favor of the McConnell “plan” apply just as well in that situation?

  • Doc Holliday

    if the government can borrow and still stops paying the troops and SS benefits, he will not do so well with the public. At some point the public needs to see what their votes have wrought. We can offer cuts, we can demand cuts, but we are not in power.

    If we say do it our way or the place burns down, we will lose in the end. We have to get the best deal we can possibly get, then yell from the highest mountain that we wanted a heck of a lot more, but Obama would not sign it. Seriously, is there really another option? Elections have consequences.

    Look, I don’t have a moderate bone in my body. I want to dismantle most of the government, for it is ruining the nation. I don’t think shutting down the government and hoping the people will demand Obama capitulate will work. And since he is already tanking, why take such a risk?

  • concap

    For all the people out there worried about a third party.

    The vote is split four ways now.

    The Republican Party
    The Democratic Party
    The Tea Party Movement
    The hard left Progressive Party (currently run by Obama)

    Since 1945, there have been six Democratic Presidents that lowered spending to GDP, compared to only two Republicans, neither of which were Reagan.

    Nixon was the last president fielded by the Republican Party, who actually lowered Government spending in relationship to GDP.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

    National Debt Increases for 53rd Straight Fiscal Year; Jumped $1.65 Trillion in FY 2010
    http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/national-debt-increases-53rd-straight-fi

    The Republican Party has not represented it?s small government constituents like they claim they do.

    I think this is the true reason the Tea Party Movement has formed.

    With the voting power, the Republican Party currently holds over the Tea Party movement, do you ever see a hard core fiscal conservative ever getting the nomination for President?

    Or will it always be someone like Bush, McCain or Huckabee, Mitt and other hiders waving the fiscal flag just to get elected?

    Will the Tea Party intentionally split off? NO! NO! NO!

    The Republican Party is morphing and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

    A new branch of the Republican Party is inadvertently being formed by Republicans who refuse to advocate their social concerns on the state level and move to the fiscal right on a federal level with the most of Republican Tea Party.

    Most of the current Republican Party is morphing with the Moderate Democratic Conservatives who are being forced to move to the right by the radical hard left, thus insuring a social leaning branch of the Republican Party.

    I think it will end up something like this.

    The Republican Party
    (Tea Party, fiscal, Constitutional)

    The Social Republican Party
    (Left leaning Republicans morphed with Right leaning Democrats, the mod?s, thus phasing out the Democratic Party)

    The new forth party we have now, will then be the third party.

    The hard left Progressive Party
    (The one Obama is representing now)

    In the end, do to the combined size of the Social Republican Party,
    (Left leaning Republicans morphed with Right leaning Democrats, the mod?s)

    The third party, Tthe Progressives will be left powerless and phase out along with the left over Democrats that did not morph with the right, then we will be back to two a two party system again.

    The Republican Party on the right
    (Tea Party, fiscal, Constitutional)

    And the

    The Social Republican Party On the left.
    (both Left leaning Republican morphed with Right leaning Democrats, the Mod?s)

  • Doc Holliday

    this guy says Reagan lowered inflation adjusted spending as percentage of GDP. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/Reaganomics.html

    of course Reagan also spurred the economy, resurrected American pride, and defeated an enemy that could have destroyed the world.

  • 6eorge Jetson

    for the private sector. (In fact, that’s the way our founders wanted it to function.)

    GDP, with lots of caveats, can be measured by outputs, income, or expenditures.

    Outputs seems the most intuitive, but how do you measure the value of the service a policeman provides? So let’s turn to income. The value added by the policeman is best captured by his compensation.

    The income approach equates the total output of a nation to the total factor income received by residents of the nation. The main types of factor income are:

    • Employee compensation (= wages + cost of fringe benefits, including unemployment, health, and retirement benefits);
    • Interest received net of interest paid;
    • Rental income (mainly for the use of real estate) net of expenses of landlords;
    • Royalties paid for the use of intellectual property and extractable natural resources.

    All remaining value added generated by firms is called the residual or profit. If a firm has stockholders, they own the residual, some of which they receive as dividends. Profit includes the income of the entrepreneur – the businessman who combines factor inputs to produce a good or service.

    Formulae:

    NDP at factor cost = Compensation of employees + Net interest + Rental & royalty income + Profit of incorporated and unincorporated firms + Income from self-employment.

    National income = NDP at factor cost + NFIA (net factor income from abroad).

    Of course, many government activities are not as valuable as that of the policeman. Nonetheless, if all government workers were to stop working immediately, and sit at home idle (factories, etc don’t sprout overnight), as a nation, we would produce less until these workers could be absorbed by the private sector in actual value-adding activities. But that takes time.

    Eventually, we will have a better capital stock as a nation if we move the govt paper pushers into more productive endeavors in the private sector.

    GDP Conservapedia

    GDP by the income approach, Wikipedia

  • http://uslibertyjournal.blogspot.com/ Daezy

    This is something that has worried me for some time now, remembering that, thanks to Perot, we had Clinton for eight years! And, most recently in the NY special election.

    But the time has come, the Walrus said, to think about what Erick wrote. The GOP has become more Big Government than we care to believe, but reality bites.

    If we are to have a true constitutional party, it looks like we have to start anew. It may take a few elections, but I believe it can be done. It’s just when do we want to bite this bullet?

  • concap

    Long time no talk.

    Sorry, not my facts

    Your reference is probably right. My reference only covers the National debt

    Is it just me, or is it every time someone references? a link on RS, most everyone says the people on the that link you referenced are full of crap?

    Are they saying not to take any link on the net at face value.

    If so, wouldn?t that cover their?s as well?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

  • Doc Holliday

    I have not noticed people attacking links, I guess the poster has to be prepared to cite strong sources. Heck, I am still trying to figure out how to hyper link, if we can still do it here. And I am not going to learn freaking HTML to do it! :)

    I do know few people visit links that are not clickable.

  • rightwingmom52

    the hyperlink thing, let me know. I haven’t been able to do it since the update.

    I asked on one of the diaries about it and got an answer, but now I can’t find it.

  • Doc Holliday
  • Doc Holliday

  • Doc Holliday

    check the help section at the very top right of the page. To me, it is a lot of freaking work!

  • rightwingmom52

    I guess I’ll have to break down and read the Help section. It’s just so much easier when a tech person comes to me personally and walks me through it.

  • Doc Holliday

    you just have to type things exactly right.

    Descriptive text to put as link text here; don’t just say “Click here”

    and yes, that includes the quotation marks.

  • Doc Holliday

    and accidental link, trying to explain how to do a link. Maybe that can be called a “Doc”. I doubt it happens too often lol.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    election – well, I guess you can throw in George Wallace too – where the third party didn’t throw the election to the candidate least favored by third party voters.