Dear Kelly Ayotte, Ron Johnson, Mike Lee, Rob Portman, Rand Paul, and Marco Rubio

jdp

true that the Republicans in the Senate cannot do anything (other than filibuster) because you and I weren’t strong enough to put enough of them in there in 2010. I’d love to make an assurance about “help is coming in 2012″ but I can’t. Can you give such an assurance, or just tell them “if you don’t do what I say, I think you won’t get any help”?

I’m not trying to be cute here, but to be realistic. If a general in a war (say, Eric Erickson) told his troops “Don’t worry we’ll make sure enough reinforcements get there to help you” and they don’t deliver, what do the troops think about the next promise?

http://lazarusreport.blogtownhall.com/ Tom Lesser

Sometimes the troops have to hold out at all costs with what they have.

jdp

Pickett’s troops did at Gettysburgh. Or the Japanese suicide bombers.

I’m a conservative Republican who has voted for conservative Republicans since I understood what politics was all about (35 or so years ago). I agree that sometimes “you just have to make a stand,” but I don’t agree that “sometimes you just have to be a suicide bomber.”

If Eric has some reason to believe that “his way” will assure me – yes, ME – that we will end up with a Republican House, a 61 seat Republican Senate (with NO RINOs) and a Republican President come January 2013, then I’m all in. But he hasn’t said that, and I don’t think there is any way he can assure that, even to himself.

I’m really asking him whether he’s willing to have Republicans be suicide bombers if that’s all they can be rather than negotiators. I suspect he’d opt for suicide bombers.

runner12

I am quite tired of the meme that because we are the underdog, we are helpless. We may be limited, but we are not powerless.

Also, since when did we have to have a cheering crowd to do what is right? Is standing up for what you believe in based on calculating your chances of winning or is it based on something more? Like say, conviction.

In sports, we always cheer the underdog. We love the team that stands up to the supposed favorite and is not intimidated. If we take that attitude with something that is that unimporant in the long run, why can’t we take the same attitude with something that affects the future of this country?

runner12

suicide bombing? Really? That is rather tasteless.

No one can guarantee that holding the line will not involve pain. Change for the good almost always involves some pain. Equally, no one can guarantee that we will win in the next election if we hold the line. Only God knows the future and Erick isn’t God, so you are probably barking up the wrong tree there, so to speak.

But I can say that there is a strong possibility that if we cave and settle for some mediocre accounting gimmick, Obama will claim victory and gain momentum to be re-elected.

Look, I get the fear out there. I even have to stuff it down myself sometimes. The lies we are fed are constant and unrelenting. But decisions made out of fear are never good ones and are almost always regretted.

jdp

I don’t disagree with you, but we have to be realistic about what cards we hold and which we don’t. One big card we don’t hold is the MSM. We can complain and bitch about that all we want, but it’s a fact of life to be dealt with. Right now, the House Republicans are bidding against themselves for (I think) the third time, while Democrats from the House to the Senate to the Oval Office haven’t bid at all. All the while, the MSM has painted it as though the House Republicans are the hang-ups and will take the hit if the stuff hits the fan.

We can complain about that all we want, but it’s reality. Eric would seem to like to deal with it by saying “this is our deal and it’s non-negotiable.” But, to me that ship has already sailed – the House Republicans have ALREADY negotiated by passing their latest CCB bill (after passing the Ryan plan bill) and not just walking out of discussions when CCB was tossed aside.

So, let’s go down in flames with our “honor” intact and refuse to increase the debt limit. I’m fairly confident (Eric hasn’t spoken on this so far as I know) that the House Republicans will pay the dearest price at the polls in November, 2012 if that happens.

But at least we can keep our heads up high as we get slaughtered, right?

gekster

The 69 Jets come to mind.
And just watched the new version of the Alamo.
Sometimes things are worth fighting for, even if it means you are going to die, and everything around you gets destroyed.
They all knew they were going to get clobbered, but it would help to get a better future for others.
That’s what Americans do, at least the ones with conviction and purpose,
and a sense that the country is greater than ones self.

runner12

(nt)

runner12

CCB was passed in the House and it raises the debt ceiling.

I would add one more thing. How is all of that so-called “realism” working out for us? Not too well I am afraid. We are 14 trillion dollars in the hole and counting.

We have tried it your way by compromising until we have backed ourselves into a corner. The only thing left to do is stand up, brush ourselves off, and push our way out of the corner. There is no other solution. If we cave, we are just kicking the can down the road and by then the stakes will be much higher.

There is some realism for you.

gekster

with heads held high.
And no matter what we do, the MSM will paint us the way they always paint us.
So we either get slaughtered doing what we know is right, or we get slaughtered as whimps for caving.
Iether way, we get slaughtered.

http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

We will never have the MSM on our side so to do as you suggest means that we will always surrender on the issues.

Stand firm and we will not be slaughtered. Slaughtered is to let Obama run rampant for the next couple of years.

http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

I am an idiot who cannot read. Please forgive me runner12.

amigag

God Bless you Erick for always being on duty with your tireless efforts on behalf of the American people and our Country.

Thank you for all you do.

rightwingmom52

And I would venture to say that most of us here have much more to lose in this fight than Boehner or McConnell. I’m worried about what will happen to the markets and in turn to my 401K, etc., especially considering that I don’t expect to ever draw what I’ve paid into Social Security. I really don’t want to have to start over at this point, but if the Dems win this battle, it may very well be the beginning of the end. I’m generally a pretty optimistic person, but any “compromise” which the Dems have agreed to is bad news for all of us. It’s just going to be worse for the everyday, middle class working American who doesn’t want to depend on the government but doesn’t have a big bank account to fall back on.

http://www.ipsnational.com Craig Whitelock

That is the only card Obama has to play. This is not about Social Security or Medicare checks. This is not about shutting down Federal services. This is about our standing and relevance in the World.

Obama could care less about our leadership in the financial markets worldwide. All he cares about is consolidating his power base. I really think he hopes for a Default so he can take extra legal measures and test the Constitution.

Boehner is correct in breaking off negotiations with Obama and shifting the emphasis back to Congress. Obama will have to sign anything that is passed because his Presidency will evaporate before his eyes if he does not.

Doc Holliday

Pickett’s men, along with those who came from A.P. HIll’s division, believed they would be successful. They were willing to risk their lives for something they believed in, but they were not suicidal, you simply have it all wrong.

Erick needs to convince you personally that we will get everything we want for Christmas is we take a risk? Hmm, methinks you don’t have any clue what taking a risk is all about.

You should study McClellan. Check that, he would be way too aggressive for you, check out William Hull.

dajeeps

Seriously. They have made a huge stink for not really having any power at all.

But given that the $14.5T number being tossed around is only part of the story, there is about 80% more in agency debt (off budget debt that includes Fannie and Freddie), I believe the credit calls are serious – not necessarily political games. If added in, the total debt is ~$21.6T or ~180% of GDP. It really does not matter how big any of the compromises are, unless the problem is dealt with in a meaningful way, right now, we’re going to get sacked.

Quibbling about whether tax rates should be 25 or 29% or whether this loophole or that one is too much means nothing because they can’t collect more than 18-19% of GDP in taxes anyway. It kind of reminds me of the agreement Greece made to get their bailout. The Greek govt conjured up an austerity plan that included inreased taxes that it would never be able to collect. When it missed its targets, and those of us who follow Art Laffer knew it would, all heck broke loose in the euro zone once more. The point is that we are milked dry and no pie in the sky visions of confiscation Obama is attempting to conjure up in the minds of the public will ever materialize – even if he does get his way – and the problem will not go away, but only get worse as more and more resources are devoted to ditching Uncle Sam and away from anything resembling productivity. It all leads to the same place, The only difference is means by which we get there.

Republicans really do need to hold the line, and right now. Otherwise, they’ll be set up for one huge fall once the debt ceiling expires in 2013 after Obama is gone.

http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

Are there no men and women left with courage?

Of course, they reflect the people who elected them.

We may be doomed.

Oh well, it was nice enjoying what liberties we had left while we had them.

About 400,000 “voting membership” slots exist nationwide in the Republican Party and about 200,000 of them are still vacant. Here in Maricopa County, AZ, despite all that the Dems have done to destroy capitalism and the rule of law, less than 50 per cent of the 6,754 Republican Party precinct committeeman slots are still vacant. I’m informed that’s about average. So, we Republicans go into the electoral battles with a less-than-half-strength party at the local level.

Until we turn this around, so we conservatives can demonstrate that our Party “grunts” will Get Out The Vote with gusto for real conservatives in the primary elections, we won’t see any changes in the status quo. Incumbents have NO incentive to fight for our liberties until they see that their constituents are organized and willing to fight for their liberties. Show them. Get involved in party politics as a precinct committeeman.

Oh, and by the way, I’ll let you in on a little secret. The incumbents, and the RNC, will never tell you that they want you to become a PC because the Party is at half strength at the precinct level. Ever get a mailer from the RNC or your incumbent Republican elected public servants saying a word about this? Ever hear them say this in a speech to conservatives?

It’s not in their self interests to do so.

Thank you.

ColdWarrior

Paul Seale

I get your point, but the line was over the top.

I do think that if Republicans are unreasonable in negotiations (meaning all or nothing), there will be hell to pay in 2012.

Sign on to tax increase? No.

Reform and find a solution, yes.

Find a compromise in which we get most of what we want – absolutely.

gekster

nt nt nt

acat

Nothing further.

grandma

Shut it down.

Paul Seale

Republicans before you have been quite reasonable. So reasonable in fact that the country is on the verge of bankruptcy.

This is not the case. You know that.

What pushed this country into the abyss was Democrats strong-arming us in critical moments.

You could argue they are doing the same here and you would be correct, save Boehner and co, and some in the senate like Coburn are standing their ground.

I dont think anyone in their right mind is advocating taking a bad deal in which taxes are raised with miniscule cuts. If they are they are wrong.

On the other hand if we are offered some sort of compromise which is yes, reasonable, and gets us moving in the right direction then it is a win for the country.

Compromise on principles like the McConnell deal or shifting the responsibility of creating a budget to some sort of debt commission? Absolutely not.

Compromise on details which will allow true cuts which keep social programs solvet. Yes.

There is a time to fight and a time to govern. Our country needs our elected officials to govern while fighting for principles, not fighting for the sake of governing.

Paul Seale

I guess we are going back to the old argument of allowing our nation to collapse on its self to rebuild it?

http://www.ipsnational.com Craig Whitelock

bailing them out. The world and EU knew this in advance, so markets weren’t put into a position of having to react. The U.S. is quite a bit different than Greece. Perhaps you are aware of that fact.

acat

The nation, the society, the culture – the healthy parts anyway – have less to fear from shutting down parts of the government than they do from government continuing to grow and debt continuing to pile on.

Or .. do you perhaps think that there’s some point where all that debt *won’t* need to be repaid? If so, I know some gentlemen from Chicago who would love to extend to you a new line of credit….

Mew

gekster

“What pushed this country into the abyss was Democrats strong-arming us in critical moments.”

And they did this by compromising.
From your statement, doesn’t sound like it to me.
But I am probably wrong, since you “are” the smartest person in the room.

acat

Your argument proves the need to reign in – *hard* – this out of control spending. Nobody else on the planet has the resources to bail us out, so why the hell do we want to continue down the path to prove it?

Mew

dajeeps

The Greeks might say it did, as it certainly was a crisis for them – one that is still playing out in the streets of Athens – which makes the idea of collecting more taxes even more of an impossibility.

Of course, comparing the complete picture of the Greek tragedy to the United States is apples and oranges. One difference is that Greece is in the euro zone and cannot foist losses onto the ECB. I heard that we owe somewhere in the area of $3T to the Fed that could be wiped clean if there was a default, We could go on like that without a big problem until the Fed would have to start buying up bonds held by 3rd parties so the Treasury could defalt on them. It really is no way to run things, but at least in the short-term no investor would have to take a hit.

gekster

says we have to give Government what they want now,
so we can give them more latter.
I guess that summs it up.

acat

And sometimes relief never comes.

We’re here, in this situation, at this time because the Reagan Revolution did not hold until relieved. Conservatives elected Reagan, declared victory and .. went home.

We’re here because the Contract With America did not hold until relieved. Same story. Declare victory, go home, leave the rot intact.

This time, conservatives must hold until relieved. No retreat until we win, no going home after. We need to stay in D.C. until the rot is removed… and that won’t happen until after most reading this are long dead. Myself included.

Mew

gekster

I may have been wrong on the default, but arn’t they taking private monye to prop up a failed society?

acat

Illinois Nazis

Mew

http://www.ipsnational.com Craig Whitelock

is stronger than ours and they can afford the borrowing. besides if they let Greece truly default then Spain and Italy are next. Contagion is the enemy.

http://www.ipsnational.com Craig Whitelock

right way to go, that we agree on. We can’t default though because we need to be credible if we are to remain a Reserve currency.

gekster

Everyone saying if we don’t pass an increase in the debt limit the world economy would implode is false, just as if the Greeks default Europe would implode.
It hasn’t happened and in our case, it won’t happen.
Just sayin.

Paul Seale

Congress was not that financially responsible during the Bush era. However it cannot hold a candle to the mess we are in now – especially since Dems took over in 2006.

We elected people to make a difference in Congress and move the country forward, not collapse the financial market and put the country in a worse spot then what it was.

That means saying no to a bad deal (bad compromise), but it also means saying yes to something which moves the ball forward.

This is not an all or nothing game.

http://www.ipsnational.com Craig Whitelock

If we default get ready for Inflation in the range of 20%. Our future borrowing costs would be astronomical. We’ll always need to borrow to finance long term commitments. Borrowing does not necessarily mean more deficits though.

acat

All not raising the debt ceiling means is *OBAMA* has to decide what gets cut and what gets paid.

What constituency does he stiff? Seniors? Armed Services? Medicare? Unions?

He *can’t* vote “present” .. and there’s no way he can blame it on the GOP with well over 50% supporting the CCB .. and good support for the BBA on top.

This is very high stakes chicken, but .. we’re in a 1974 Olds 98, Obama’s in a Prius.

Mew

Paul Seale

Is that your goal? Do you want a shut down and desire to see the system collapse so it can be reformed in a different form?

While I champion limited government, I believe there is a differents between that and no government.

We may all deep down inside want to turn the off switch to an entity which is clearly out of control – but I would argue that it is against everyones interest to do so.

Maybe when we face an opposition who might be so noble as to do the right thing and make sure the right people are paid first if and when such and event where to happen.

I submit to you that it is not that case, and even if it were we would not be good stewards.

So no, shutting down the government is not an acceptable or good option. It hurts the nation at large too much and provides too much to the opposition.

http://www.ipsnational.com Craig Whitelock

to pay for our debt and for the Federal government to operate, just not at today’s levels. This is not a bad thing, except if you’re a Liberal, then it’s a disaster.

acat

It’s not in the “cooked” numbers because they factor out food and energy.. and both of those have spiked quite badly in the last year.

Everything else will follow *anyway*. Arguing otherwise .. or arguing that this can somehow make it worse is … well, it hits me as though you’re out of touch. Arguing from an academic position.

Also, keep in mind that .. if wages can keep up and we don’t end up in stagflation, an admittedly significant “if” .. inflation is one way out of the significant number of “underwater” mortgages. The dollar value of the house changes but – except in the case of ARMs, the value of the note does not move. It’s ugly, and stagflation would be even uglier, but it’s true.

Just sayin’

Mew

Paul Seale

Dead on.

http://www.ipsnational.com Craig Whitelock

That was Inflation. What we’re seeing today is mild in comparison. I guess I am out of touch since Food and Energy costs don’t matter much to my budget.

gekster

It seams you agree that the Dems havn’t compromised with us since 2006, and it makes no sense to compromise with them now.
There might be hope for you.

Paul Seale

Your putting our nation’s spending priority in the hands of Presidetn Obama? Given President Obama’s track record I have zero faith in his ability to make the right decision for the right reason.

In fact, I would see him making good on his threat with seniors and medicare.

Want to see a country wide melt down? Take away medicare. I work at a hospital and can tell you first hand many places would be forced to close the doors.

Or, President Obama could decide to just sit on his hands and let everything hit the fan at once.

Whats worse, however, is that S&P announced on Cavuto this morning that they may downgrade us ahead of August 2.

In either case just letting things float on by should not be desireable outcome. From my angle, its irresponsible.

Yeah, stinks that Reid tabled CCB.

How are you going to get Reid to untable and pass it with a Democrat majority and have President Obama sign it?

My guess is that for the BBA to pass, we are going to have to have sound majorities in both houses and a Republican president. Just a guess.

http://www.pursuit-of-liberty.com davidmiller

I don’t think Mike Lee is thinking about settling for a deal but if he is I just elected he wrong guy to the Senate and he can expect a very short tenure.

acat

You’re spreading fear, and now you’re deliberately citing the idea of chaos and a Cloward-Piven-type event (“system collapse so it can be reformed” is a straight quote from their playbook) to try to get me to accept growing the debt.

Lies, Paul. All lies.

Fact 1. The government has enough revenue that it will not cease all operations.

Fact 2. We don’t know what parts of the government will be shut down. That’s up to Obama, as the Chief Executive. He makes the calls.

Fact 3. There will be disruptions, but they will be nowhere near Cloward-Piven unless Obama chooses to make them so.

I further find your use of the term “good stewards” offensive. I do not need a “steward” in D.C., Paul, nor a mandarin, nor a ruler.

Your argument falls short. Again. To quote someone or another, “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”

Mew

bs61

gekster I feel the same way – I get so frustrated with people who think we should be worrying at all about what the failing MSM has to say!

Paul Seale

I havent changed positions. Seriously.

Ive never said we should compromise principles or raise taxes. Trust me on this.

What I have always maintained, and what drives me batty, is the insistance of a all or nothing mentallity.

If it is an issue like abortion which is a life or death situation, or Bibical scriputre and doctrine then there is no room for compromise. There is only truth.

On a policy issue like this, however, if we can get 80% of what we want without raising taxes and moving the nation toward financial santiy then I am all for it.

Reasonable means reasonable. Obviously a BAD deal is not reasonable.

Boehner walked away from a BAD deal all last week and deserves credit. I pray, and others, are able to make the right decision. Not just for party politics sake, but for the country.

I hope that makes sense.

gekster

Well that in itself explains it all.
Tax the rest of us so you can get paid.
Got ourselves a real conservative right hear.
Don’t care what you say, he’s a real conservative.

bs61

I heard on talk radio, but can’t remember who! They said it was from an independent agency since we can’t believe our own. Plus there is some shadow stats site where they carry a vast array of monitors.

acat

If, for no other reason, than to see just how little there really is that will hit the fan.

Hospital billing cycles are months long, longer for Medicare. Or .. did you think that your working in one meant you’re the only one who knows them?

So the checks don’t go out this month. Hospitals have enough ca$h on hand to run until the printing presses start up again, especially since Meidcare pays pennies on the dollar, while insurance companies pay at least dimes.. in most cases.

Seniors may have problems. They can also be told – and must be told, loudly, repeatedly, and by every member of the GOP – that it is Obama’s *choice* to raid the Social Security lock box to pay for .. what? What’s more important than keeping that promise?

If I were S&P, I’d have downgraded us in 2006, and then again in 2009. That they didn’t says more about their blinders than anything else.

How to get Reid to un-table it? Make un-tabling it what the Dem Senators up for re-election want. There are more of them than there are GOP Senators up in 2012, so .. start running campaign ads *now*. “Does your Senator support President Obama’s plan to raid the Social Security lock box? Want one who opposes it?”

Seriously, Paul. You are spreading fear.

One more little fact for you. Obama’s up for re-election in 2012, if he decides to run. There are more Dem Senators up in 2012. Making them *own* this decision is why Obama won’t screw it up.

If the GOP in the House hold the line, saying “We passed CCB, that’s our final offer”, then .. the debt limit goes up, but spending goes down. I can live with that.

It’s a game of chicken. We have a winning car. All we have to do is hold steady, and they’ll cave.

You spreading fear is not helping.

Man up.

Mew

bs61

And there was a Nazi headquarters across from a big beautiful park… where the car goes into the lagoon. However, when I went home a few years ago, it was gone and a Latino headquarters.

I didn’t realize how communist things were until I moved out of the state!

Paul Seale

Lets go over your arguments one by one. The first is a fact, but points two and three are guesses.

1) True. The government has enough money to make sure the debt is serviced. I agree with this.

2) This is the trick. Would you bet your pay check President Obama will skip a chance at making his political opponents feel maximum pressure? During the earlier govt shut down situation he threatened to not pay the troops who are in harms way. This time he already threatened no soc sec checks to seniors and said not to call his bluff?

3) Given 2, we have no idea what three will be like. Whats more, how will markets react?

In short, you got whiff of what I fear about this present administration. They have been gaming for a govt shut down since Republicans took office.

I am unsure, given their past performance, whether they would do in this situation. Seriously.

We’ve already had Robert Riech and Bill Clinton give their blessing to raise the debt limit without Congressional authorization citing the 14th amendment.

In short, what you hope acts as a sort of default balanced budget tool may in fact work in the favor of President Obama in many ways. Until the administration proves they are partisan, I am unsure that they will make the correct decisions to service the debt ceiling and make payments to those who need the money the most.

Lastly, we are all stewards of what God gives us. Whether its talent, time or money. If you find the concept offensive I am sorry, but it is truth.

dajeeps

It really depends on how long it goes on and how it is done if there is a default. I can say without too much uncertainty that it wouldn’t be without consequence. I don’t want to get too technical here, but T-bonds are generally considered cash substitutes and if there’s an issue with the bond market, I really can’t say how deep that rabbit hole would go. Now, if there’s some method to it, say some kind of strategic default that is appropriately managed, it doesn’t have to turn out like those visions of doom that are predicted. But interest in gov’t debt would be curtailed and that would affect the value of existing bonds.

An example of something like that happening was in 1907 with the Hepburn Act that caused a run on railroad securities – nearly everyone who was investing to build a nest egg had money in the RRs. It flat-lined the economy and gov’t revenue dried up. J.P. Morgan had to bail out the government to keep things from getting worse. And so when the Federal Reserve was set up, one of the intentions was that if something like that ever happened again, it would take the losses – to keep things from getting worse. I don’t think the Fed has ever had to serve that function, and so we don’t really know what the market reaction will be.

One thing I can say is that Obama is a real jerk for playing up the default risk because much of what happens in markets is psychological and the fact that he has been so bold about it means that he’s already done unnecessary damage.

dbkohl

Between bad government and no government I choose bad government of anarchy. But is that what will happen? Will we be in anarchy with rioting in the streets on 03 August? Its possible, if certain segments don’t get thier hand-out checks. Several groups of similar demographics have in the past. But I doubt it. At least it won’t be overly widepsread.

The importance of Shut. It. Down. is that we didn’t flinch this time. Boehner is starting to show that he is not Gingrich… If only he will follow through. Flinching this time may mean re-election of Obama. Holding the line while painful and nerve-racking to say the least, is what needs to be done.

“I took the road less-travled and that made all the difference”

Paul Seale

And work at a hospital.

My wife also works in the medical field at a clinic.

Full disclosure.

My point was more to the end that you would important services potentially rendered inoperable – at least until medicaid funding was turned on.

That doesnt mean that there may not be a 30 or 60 day contengency plan at some facilities. There very well may be.

acat

And thank you for confirming what I’d thought.

Bear in mind that energy is one of the first points where inflation shows up because it ripples through every other sector. Food is affected by energy, and other factors, and .. ripples through every other sector.

The rest is just a matter of time. Every company that uses energy will have to, somehow, pay for the increased cost. Every company that has employees who eat food will, somehow, have to pay for that increased cost… and forcing the employees to take it in the wallet only works until another opportunity comes along.

I would suggest that you look at the price of gasoline compared to the price of a gallon of milk, or the price of a big mac, over the last 20 years. I remember my father wondering whether gas would hit $1.00 a gallon before milk hit $2.00 … gas is now routinely over $4.00 while milk is around $2.50. Think about that.

Mew

acat

a 30-day or 60-day disruption now, or four years of stagflation, where your business can’t increase what you charge customers, but your expenses all go up 5%-15% a year.

Which would you prefer?

Because, Paul, if we don’t get spending under control, we’re going to end up with government bonds back at 1975 levels, i.e. 15% interest .. and the money to pay that interest comes out of the same budget that pays .. well, I guess you.

Hope you have a “Plan B” there, Paul.

Mew

acat

The Fed has put up something like 75% of the cash to buy bonds for the last six months. For every dollar of bonds sold, 75 cents came from the Fed.

I’d say they’ve definitely served that function with QE2 …

Mew

phenry

It doesn’t matter, because Dems have the majority in the senate. Of course, if enough of them vote against it opposition will be “bipartisan” as well so there’s no harm in voting against a deal. I don’t know that the better strategy isn’t to wait until after 2012 to fix things. If we fix things now we just give Obama cover – “see, all that spending didn’t batter, the budget could still easily be balanced”. The other option is to cut a deal Obama can accept, which doesn’t fix anything, and then run against him on the continuing death of the economy in 2012. Once a Republican president and senate are elected, things can be fixed for good and then Republicans get the credit.

Paul Seale

Hmm. I wouldnt put it so much as spreading fear as speaking my mind to what I see happening with the information I am aware of.

If you can speak those points and prove me wrong, all the better.

Part of not trusting President Obama is that I strongly doubt that he would do what is best for this nation.

Give an opportunity over and over again President Obama’s administration makes the choice of what is nearly the worst possible policy.

Energy, finances, defense, even science. You name it, its a near worst case scenario.

That is why if it is at all possible we can avert this and get most of what we want (using the Reagan 80% rule), I will be tickled pink.

Note, as stated before, I do not want us to compromise our principles. No commission, no handing the budget over to the President.

However, I am not at the stage where I am openly and willing to allow the government to shut down to give it the opportunity to default.

Thats just me, though.

Obviously, you fee different about the subject – I just pray everything will work out in the end.

acat

First, citing Robert Riech and Bill Clinton, who are both Dems, is not exactly convincing. The idea that the 14th gives Obama the power to spend is ludicrous. Nothing in the 14th moved the power of the purse out of the House. Period.

Second, you said “Until the administration proves they are partisan”.

Paul, in what way has the Obama administration proven they are *not* partisan?

When this administration took over GM and Chrysler, they rewarded the unions by violating standard bankruptcy law so that the unions got paid *before* the bond-holders and shareholders. Further, the administration selected which dealers to shut down based on which ones had donated to the GOP.

I’m convinced they’re partisan, Paul. For you to try to argue otherwise, on Red State, is … well, let’s say that a lot of what you’ve said is now clear. And that’s not complimentary.

Mew

Paul Seale

And will continue to pray that some how our leaders will decide to do what is right for the nation and do the right thing.

In my mind thats is the only viable tool in the box right now given all the hard feelings.

I can tell you that because of all the uncertainty I have three big projects on hold. One of them was planned for two years. As a result I am unable to go to the gathering this August as I wanted to.

Thats life.

I agree with you that out of this deal needs to be at least 3-4 trillion in cuts. If there isnt, the credit rating will go down regardless.

So, while some would like to focus on shutting the government down to get the desired result, I hope and pray that a solution will be found and at least give us another election cycle to elect people who will pass CCB.

acat

My grandchildren will not thank you, Paul.

I think we can get a better deal by walking away.

By the way, you *do* know that the Aug. 2nd deadline is the second such this calendar year, and that it’s not written in stone anywhere, right?

That’s right – there’s nothing magical about August Second that means it’s when the fit hits the shan. I say let it go right past.

It’s like walking out of a car dealer after hearing their “best offer”. Do that about 11:00, then .. call ‘em back around 16:45 and ask if they want to make another offer or, like I’ve done several times, walk back in the next day and see what they say.

So far, I do not believe we’ve got Obama’s best deal. I don’t have to trust him for that to be true.

Mew

acat

We have too much government.

Either taxes have to go up, to more European levels .. say, 25% of GDP .. or government spending has to come down to more traditionally American levels, say 15% of GDP.

You cannot have your cake (25% spend) and eat it too (15% tax)… that’s how we got here in the first place.

I’m a “rip the band-aid off quick” kind of a cat, Paul. Yank all the fur out at once and get it over with. You seem to be ignoring that there’s a band-aid on there at all, and .. that’s not the case.

You can only live beyond your means so long. Sooner or later, the bill collectors find you. That, too, is the Chicago Way.

Mew

Paul Seale

Mask? Mot sure what mask you are talking about.

I meant to say unless the administration acts like its nonpartisan (or working in the best interest of our nation as a pose to its self and or party).

I would only point out that you never addressed any of my points of concern.

As for the rest – I would only note that in years past my content was published on the front page on more than one occation.

I do not need to pass your litmus test, sir.

On the other hand you do need to prove your point in how we can trust the Obama administration with the keys to the car and no switch to stop him.

Last time that happened we got healthcare. This time, who knows.

It is not an option I would like to explore. Maybe you are feeling a bit luckier than I.

Paul Seale

As to McConnell, no.

Ive written enough about and made clear enough about in my writtings here and abroad to note that McConnell is a nonstarter. It does not give Republicans even 10%, let alone “80%”

Dont believe me? Read my writings and comments on the matter.

Same with handing the budget over to some sort of a debt commission. That doesnt work either.

You are both right and wrong about august second.

Right that its not a magical date. S&P is already looking to down grade us. Moodys may be not to far behind. That could happen as early as monday morning (was on Cavuto this morning).

Wrong about payments – I dont have all the information in front of me, but has it do with dispursements. Pardon the fact that im having to pry my eyelids open.. but that is why they initially said the 22nd was the last day so things could be properly aligned, so who knows..

I agree we dont have the best deal. Obama found that out friday after he tried to mess with the agreement he was working on with Boehner.

In either event the point was and is the same, would trust obama to make the proper least painful govt disprusements. Until he proves otherwise, I cannot.

I will not take the future of our country on such a gamble.

Again, maybe you are feeling that fortunate, I am not.

acat

Wanna bet Obama’s got a phone call?

To address your credibility first, since you brought it up, I don’t see front page promotions or front page author status as some kind of mark of perfection; we’re all imperfect. Nature of the beast. On this issue, you do not pass my litmus test, but by the same token, I do not pass yours. C’est la guerre.

As for your point of concern, it’s all hypothetical, both your side and mine, once we get past “The government will continue to have income”.

We don’t know what Obama will do. On healthcare, he punted it to Pelosi, who took too long to run it back, so he got an inferior, pork-laden bill, with a laundry list of Dem nose-poking-under-the-tent stuff (1099 for any transaction over $600 ring any bells?) crammed into it. A competent executive would have done better…

We also don’t know exactly when the last dime in the metaphorical hourglass runs out. Is it August 2nd? Unlikely. It’s soon, though, but the idea that it’s that particular date is .. not true. It’s a line in the sand, put there by .. Obama.

I want to call his bluff.

We especially don’t know what the Senate Dems who are facing re-election will or are hearing from their constituents. More of them up in 2012 than GOPers… and several are in purple states that have trended more red since 2008. Doing nothing on CCB, since the general public seems to like it, would appear to hand their GOP rivals an issue.

The House has passed CCB. All they have to do is say “This is our proposal, what’s yours?” enough times for pressure to build on Reid to bring it off the table again.

You think Obama would try to make the GOP feel maximum pressure. I agree, I think he will. I would bet my paycheck on it. The difference in our positions, Paul, is that I don’t think the GOP are really trying to make Obama feel maximum pressure. We have the winning car in this game of chicken, but we have the wrong drivers.

The main difference between us, Paul, appears to be that I’m willing to crash the car. And I don’t think I’m alone in this.

Mew

Paul Seale

Lets start from the core problem – spending.

My personal dream would be to take on a CCB style measure.. maybe even adopt Coburn’s 9 Trillion over ten years plan which would supposedly start to cut into the deficit. Heck, might even go for a flat tax.

However, that is not what we have in front of us as such a plan would never pass muster in the Senate and Obama would refuse to sign such a bill.

Given our circumstances I would shoot for about a 4T cut in spending (from what ive read, 4t cut is minimum needed to keep proper credit rating).. I would look into closing tax loop holes which some businesses abuse (like GE who made a 5 Billion dollar profit without paying taxes.. im not talking about taking away things such as legitimate itemized expenses which actually DRIVE the economy as businesses purchase items they invest to make a return on investment)… Beyond that you have the alternative minimum tax which needs addressing..

Cut wise – we must address the solvency of social security and medicare. Im not sure how and im too far gone in the morning to get into specicifcs.. of course democrats will fight tooth and nail over any changes, so im not sure.. but cuts and reforms must be made otherwise they will fail.. just not sure what at the moment.

Paul Seale

Never EVER undersell praying for leaders on all sides of the meeting. NEVER.

I would argue that if more people were praying about this matter for a successful resolution then maybe we might have a solution by now.

acat

A matter of being willing to go through the pain, since I don’t think we really can avoid it. It’s coming, sooner or later.

Capitulating now and trying to do better in 2012 is a valid strategy, but .. I think it overlooks an important factor. Will the Tea Party folks support GOPers who capitulate on this, and just how many seats will have a Tea Party and GOP candidate?

Mew

acat

I do not accept it. I remain unconvinced that anyone’s listening.

That, though, is not a discussion for Red State.

Mew

Paul Seale

I agree with most of your post. I would like to point out one small difference regarding the who crediblility issue which you raise.

I never, ever wear a mask and pretend to be someone I am not. Ever.

Havent for my wife when we were dating, havent when I post here and I am not going to start now.

Whether you and others like it or not, I am a conservative.

The difference comes down to this, as you said, you are willing to crash the care. I am not. I cannot in good conscience.

You are not alone in the matter. That is a fact.

I am not alone in the matter. That is also a fact.

Neither of us know what will happen on August 2nd or thereabouts and much of this is conjecture.

I have no problem finding a solution finding a problem with this debt crisis which does not conflcit which centers on conservative principles and moves the ball forward.

If you do not that is fine as well.

I feel heavily obligated to my family to protect them as best as I can however I can.

That means passing a good solution (not like Reid-McConnell or this debt commission plan, something like Coburn’s proposal).. It also means not crashing the car.

I hope that makes sense.

keven

“”"Find a compromise in which we get most of what we want ? absolutely.”"”

And what are we getting? An extra trillion in phony long term cuts that never happen? Yeeha.

Here is what we want and are not getting…..No increase in the debt ceiling. The Paul Ryan plan. The Cut, Cap, and Ballance plan. A Ballanced Budget amendment. End to Obamacare. Spending back to 2008 levels. End to major departments. Truely addressing the Medicare and SS programs. Not some tinkering with it either. And on and on. We are getting NOTHING.

Here is what they get. Another increase in the debt ceiling. Real cuts I bet in military spending. And increased “revenues”. And the issue gone for two more years. By then, we will have 18 trillion in debt. Yeeha.

What bothers me is the party isn’t fighting. They are not fighting the fight like they did on Obamacare. Fox news is against us. The establishment is against us. The ENTIRE senate, minus Lee, Demint and Paul is against us. And Romney and even Perry have said almost nothing on the topic. So all our talking points which are plenty are not getting out there. It almost seems that the Tea Party conservatives are being setup for the fall.

This discussion should have begun months ago and should have been organised and unified and loud with all our great points, such as where the heck is the Democratic plan? We can’t win a fight if we don’t even try. And other then a few congressman, few on our side are trying to win this battle. I think we have already lost it truthfully. Sometimes Republicans make me sick. Especially the bastard Senate and establishment variety.

Donald Ayotte

The cost of caving in will be much greater than if you hold the line. If we are downgraded, it is not a good thing but if we hold the line and make the cuts, we will be much better off, in the long run,

bk

Until then, Obama can threaten anything he wants in order to get the GOP to cave. The GOP is terrified of being blamed, so they’ll probably cave.

But if they didn’t cave and August 2nd rolls around, then suddenly Obama has to make decisions instead of threats. He can try to blame Congress all he wants, but for a change he’s having to actually make decisions instead of whine, give speeches, and vote ‘present’.

Sure he’d try to play it politically, but it would not take long at all for him to crack it seems to me, as people are still going to see other parts of bloated government still operating while the part they want is shut down, him playing golf and going to endless fundraisers with fat cat donors, Michelle traveling the world, etc. It’s not going to take long for people to resurrect a phrase that seemed to disappear in Jan 2009: “on his watch”.

bk

All Reid has done for 3 years is kick the can. If there is a financial disaster, I don’t see how Senators who did absolutely nothing for 4 years are going to win based on “blame the minority and reelect me”.

smitch61

A beautiful outdoor wedding last night. The major discussion was of course politics. The economy, the unemployment numbers, Obama care, the congress, the senate, the debt ceiling, and on and on. My husband and I were the only one’s at the table who had voted McCain/Palin in 2008, and we knew no one at the table as it was the wedding of a co workers daughter. These guests were upset with their vote, will not vote that way again, and were very much in agreement with what you posted today.

Based on that, I would agree, they should pay very close attention to what they are about to do, this is not a conservative thing anymore, it is common sense. The American people are loaded with common sense.

Michael Dugas

And you do realize that Moody’s stated that even with the debt ceiling raised there’s a 50% chance there will be a drop in our credit rating anyway. Decades and decades of compromise have given us nothing but a screwed up economy. Past promises of reform have all come to nothing because they were future promises that future congresses weren’t required to adhere too. We need to force solutions NOW. Many of you are acting like our economy has time for solutions to be delayed to more convenient times….I think you are mistaken.

Michael Dugas

…and I agree with you. But your response to that is that WE also don’t do what’s right for the nation. Take McConnell’s smoke and mirrors bill, you can’t cede congressional power and oversight to the President, allowing him carte blanche to spend as he wants without input from the people’s representatives, and claim it’s the right thing to do. It’s not a move that’s good for the country, it’s a political move to cover ones butt…..and the voters on the right know it. The economy doesn’t have time for gamesmanship……it needs help NOW.

Michael Dugas

Where is the proof that it will collapse? That’s one hell of a huge assumption. There have been past state and federal shutdowns….no collapse so why are you so sure it will end in a collapse?

keysconservative

Is it hyperbole to use ‘war’ language to describe the ‘battle’ being waged in Washington between the Patriotic Tea Party and the Jihadic Dems as so many of us are doing? I don’t think so. Yes, they must hold the line, at all costs, because if they don’t the war to save America is over and the future is lost. Hyperbole? No. How long do you suppose we have as a nation if we continue on the current path? If we consider the history of the world’s greatest empires and their demise we know it won’t be long now for they followed the same path we are on now. Radical expansion of bureaucracy fueled by an ever more powerful centralized government squelching individual liberty and economic growth and burying the future under a mountain of debt the even the most oppressive taxes can cover. Ancient Rome, Greece and 16th Century Spain-examples all.
Relief may be coming in 2012 or it may not. That’s up to us. In the meantime we must do what we failed to do after Reagan and then again after Newt’s contract with America, we must inform and educate the voting public to the dangers we face and help them identify the real enemy. HALF of the voting public are either ignorant of the facts or don’t care. HALF will be content to receive freebies from Uncle Sam and watch American Idol. As Roman Emperor Diocletian before us, “offer them bread and circuses.” Feed them, distract them, and maybe they won’t realize what we’ve done to them. America is on the brink of collapse. If Obama is reelected he very well may be the LAST President we ever have. And half of the people haven’t even noticed.
Yes, by all means, hold the line. There really is no other choice.

swi2522

finally a common sense adult in the room

acat

When the words you choose make it unclear that you’re a conservative, or when your conservatism doesn’t extend to wanting to reduce spending as soon as possible, you can’t be surprised when some .. become confused.

Instead of asking if we’re crazy, or defending by some appeal-to-past-record (I observe McConnell has a great record too) perhaps you should ask “What am I missing here?”

I also have to ask if you’d be happier talking to someone who lied about his name – I could have said I’m Fred Rogers or Bob Montgomery or Jubal Harshaw… would you prefer to talk to any of those? They’re also words, just words.

I made the choice to not bring any outside cred to the table. I live or die, rhetorically, on the data I link or the opinion I hold, not on who people think I am, or what they think they know about me. It’s a weaker starting position, if you think about it, but it’s also a valid one for the internet.

I am obligated to protect my family, just as you are. I am looking at another 400 billion dollars in borrowing that Obama wants, and my reaction is “That’s 400 billion *plus interest* that my grandchildren will have to repay.”

I find that to be a greater danger to my family than crashing the government, especially since – as we both agree – there is money to pay most (60% is still “most”) of the bills.

Obviously, we’re not going to agree. Equally obviously, we’re not either in D.C., yanking on the levers of power. Guess we’ll see what happens. And until it does happen, all our words are .. just words after all.

Mew

CMaree

Here again is the pictorial representation of a trillion dollars.
Our beloved country has this much debt times 14 pressing down on it.
Congress, cold turkey the federal addiction to trillions.
Congress, don’t even think of another commission to manipulate
the fix.

concap

.

concap

CCB will still be brought back out on the floor before it’s all over.

nilram

32 years is 1009843200 seconds (Assuming 365.25 days/yr) or ~1.009 Billion seconds. One Trillion seconds is 1000 times longer or about 32000 years.

To spend 14 Trillion dollars requires an average spending of $1887.80 every second since 1776.

concap

it did say a billion.

gunslingr45

THE LINE!

Barack is very disappointed with me!

I only scored 20 on the Obama Test

carolynr

Get the Supreme Court back from their vacation. This is a matter of national security. You ask why…this is about the debt ceiling…NO IT IS NOT…IT IS ABOUT OBAMACARE and that is why the CC&B has been tabled. I feel like I am all alone out here…yelling at the top of my lungs…can’t anyone see this reality? Why did Obama oppose this before he even saw it. What would it hurt…his precious Tax Bill…that bankrupts this country. Get the SCOTUS BACK FROM VACATION.

RS

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