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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

The Horserace for August 18, 2011

IA Caucus: Feb. 6, 2012
NH Primary: Feb. 14, 2012
NV Caucus: Feb. 18, 2012
SC Primary: Feb. 28, 2012

Tim Pawlenty is out of the race. Rick Perry is in the race. Not only is Perry in, he is surging to first place in the Rasmussen polling. But it is still Mitt Romney’s race to lose right now.

The race is beginning to find some momentum of its own. Rick Perry’s entry was not a Fred Thompson entry as some expected. He is dominating the conversation and forcing both Democrats and Republicans to respond to him. Whether he can keep it up and whether it blows back on him will be interesting to see moving forward.

Today, we have to spend time weeding out candidates, which will make some of you mad. Also, we’ll deal with Paul Ryan and Chris Christie.

Below the fold, the horse race gallops ahead.

Michele Bachmann

Michele Bachmann now has two historic factors working against her.

First, no member of the United States House of Representatives has made it from Congress to the White House since the 1800′s.

Second, the winner of the Ames Iowa Straw Poll more often than not does not win the Iowa Caucus and it is even rarer for the straw poll winner to actually win the party nomination. Why? Well, because of the vast amount of resources that must be consumed to be competitive in Ames for starters. Ames is rapidly discrediting itself, though it serves as a useful venue to weed out some candidates and, thankful, reduce the number of participants in debates.

All that said, let me make one thing clear: Michele Bachmann has surpassed all expectations that anyone has ever had for her. If anyone can defy history it will be Michele Bachmann.

There is one troubling issue that her campaign rapidly needs to get a handle on: the prima donna rap against her. Yes, you can call it sexist. But don’t dismiss it. It is starting to develop in the media and will be a real problem for her moving forward as it sinks into the conscience of caucus goers and others.

The basic attack is that Bachmann is aloof, refuses to mingle, and has let it go to her head.

I know there are times Bachmann seems as if she is above it all. And I know a lot of her staff has lashed out at her on background — not just former staff, but current staff believe it or not. This will be a real problem for her if she cannot tamp it down as people will suspect it is all for show.

The Michele Bachmann i know is not just a solid conservative, but one hell of a retail politician. She’s going to need to get back to that quickly because the press is starting to play up every perceived snub, sleight, and arrogance.

At the same time, Bachmann is going to have to figure out a way to cut down Rick Perry’s momentum. Polls suggest he is cutting into her base of support quickly and rapidly consolidating a lead.

Herman Cain

Herman Cain is done.

In all honesty, I think if I did not like Herman as much as I do and did not feel some measure of gratitude for him allowing me to take his radio show, I would have objectively cut him off this list before now.

A few weeks ago, Herman said he needed to be in the top 3 in Ames, IA’s straw poll. But he came in fifth. His spin now is that he spent no money and was able to beat out others. The problem is he came in fifth far from the top. He also did spend money on a bus to go around Iowa. And something else.

In all polling of both Iowa and nationally, Herman Cain has led Rick Santorum. But Rick Santorum, whose financial position is worse than Herman Cain’s, got more votes at Ames. That suggests one of two things — either Herman’s support is fading or it was always shallow to begin with.

Either way, Herman Cain’s ride in our horse race comes to an end now, whether he stays in or not. He may get a second wind, but given his finances, lack of stellar debate performances of late, and his otherwise overall failure to gain traction, I think it is time for Herman to come home to Georgia and start preparing for the Senate in 2014 against Saxby Chambliss.

Chris Christie

Jonathan Alter of Newsweek may have sources telling him Christie is “focus grouping” a run for the White House, but I have never known Chris Christie to focus group anything. Likewise, both Christie and his staff are denying he has any intention of running and I believe them. That’s not to say he could not change his mind, but I think it is unlikely.

Jon Huntsman

Jon Huntsman, at present, appears to have no path to victory. He cannot, however, be counted out because of his ability to fund himself for a while.

People close to his campaign whisper that Huntsman has no intention of putting money in. And if he does not, he is done. But he can still have an impact in the race by forcing Mitt Romney to work harder in places like New Hampshire and Florida.

All that said though, it appears unlikely Huntsman will even have that impact. His performance in the Iowa debate was charlatanesque. He has no broad based appeal within the grassroots and remains useful in the race only for liberals who wish to sneer at the other candidates and wish they were more like Huntsman.

Paul Ryan

He reportedly made up his mind months ago to not run and is rumored to be getting pressured to rethink things.

If Paul Ryan gets in, he would have the same hurdle of Michele Bachmann in that a person has not gone from the House to the White House since the 1800′s.

Ryan would also have no natural, national fundraising base. The tea party movement dislikes that his plan to balance the budget takes an eon and raising the debt limit to $23 trillion. Those who do like him are tied up with other candidates.

And during the debt ceiling debate, Ryan was no where to be found while the White House and Democrats pounded the stew out of him until moving on to pound the crap out of Eric Cantor and others. If Ryan gets in, I don’t see how he gets on a path to victory and suspect he will, again, decide not to get in.

Sarah Palin

I guess when I originally posted, I pasted over Sarah Palin with Paul Ryan. Sorry.

In any event, everyone still seems divided on whether Palin will get in the race. I am inclined to say she will not. Here’s why.

Whether you or I like her, the fact is she has 95% name ID and only 12% support according to recent Gallup polling. Given the high name ID and low support and some polls showing other candidates ahead of her already, I just don’t know that she is going to run.

If she does, I suspect those numbers will shift in her favor. A lot of people who would support her right now think she is not running. Her entry would change that. She’d also be able to quickly raise money. But I do not think enough support shifting or money raised would put her into strong contention to battle Romney. And her entry would cause such a stir and all consultant class guns trained in her direction, at this late entry, it could help Bachmann and Perry for her to get in.

Ron Paul

Ron Paul will not be the nominee.

Rick Perry

Here is Rick Perry’s problem.

Carole Strayhorn ran against Perry in the GOP primary in 2006. She and her consultants had their butts handed to them by Perry and his team.

Karl Rove was a key player, despite his occasional denials, in Kay Bailey Hutchison’s defeat at Rick Perry’s hands last year in the Republican primary for Texas Governor.

Even Obama’s campaign guy, David Axelrod, has been crushed by Rick Perry.

So you have these guys, the Romney camp, and all their related friends on the left and the right trying to settle every score they can with Perry and his consultant, Dave Carney.

This, by the way, is why the attacks are coming fast and furious right now. This is why Republicans are leaking to reporters that Perry is too out of control or has, as Alex Castellanos put it on CNN last night, “Mad Cowboy Disease.”

Because so much of the consultant class will be shut out of the White House should Rick Perry win, their livelihoods depend on Rick Perry losing either now or in November. And frankly, for a few in the GOP consultant class, they’ll gladly see Perry lose in November just to ensure they are not shut out of a Republican White House.

For all the talk of Perry being an establishment guy, the establishment hates his guts as much as the left does. That’s one reason the base finds him so endearing. See, for example, this more expansive column by Matt Lattimer on the Rove v. Perry history, which tracks with my own thinking on this.

The Perry campaign will have to withstand a lot to keep standing. This, more than any other reason, is why Perry cannot be considered the front runner just yet. It’s going to take weeks of this to see if he can hold up and hold up his polling. Keep in mind that the Republicans and Democrats are both playing at cross purposes with Perry right now. The GOP wants to convince Republican primary voters that Perry is too radioactive to be able to take on Obama. The Democrats want to play off that and scare the mess out of swing voters.

We’re going to be hearing a lot about Barry Goldwater for the next few months. They’ll ignore the Reagan comparison, which the Democrats used to play off Reagan to no avail in 1980.

Oh, and on top of all of that, he has both Sarah Palin fans and Ron Paul fans lined up against him to prove how un-conservative he is. I do not envy Rick Perry right now.

Mitt Romney

Do not underestimate Mitt Romney. Some of you Perry fans are already all on board with him being the front runner.

You are irrationally exuberant.

Mitt Romney has piles of cash Rick Perry can only dream of. Mitt Romney also has the backing of the very same consultant class within the GOP intent on destroying Rick Perry. Mitt Romney has also been on the national stage before at this level and Rick Perry hasn’t.

Romney has been focused like a laser flying around the country raising stockpiles of cash to compete with Barack Obama and he will deploy a lot of it to defeat Rick Perry if he has to, though I suspect his campaign intends to keep its hands clean and let the GOP consultant class do the work for them.

Yes, Mitt Romney was in the Mittness Protection Program. Yes, he just came out and stumbled. But that was leg stretching, nothing more. Mitt Romney is the front runner and it will take a few weeks of consistent polling to see if anything changes. A candidate being in the race for 5 days does not a front runner make.

There is one note of caution on Mitt Romney — he is using the playbook for a normal election year. I do not think this is a normal election year. He is positioning himself to seem more reasonable than Perry on issues like global warming, etc. He refuses to walk back Romneycare. He is looking very Presidential and above a lot of the melee that happens in primaries.

In 1988 or 1996 or 2000 or 2008, that would be the strategy. But I get the strong sense that this election cycle will be much more like 1980 when the establishment put up George H. W. Bush to run against Ronald Reagan. The consultant class and the establishment rallied early, they worked to paint Reagan as fringe and the second coming of Barry Goldwater, and the boys from California crushed them all on the road to the White House.

Let me assure you, the boys from California are pikers compared to the boys from Texas.

Listing of Presidential candidates
I consider “former” candidates

(in order of being dropped)

Gary Johnson
Rick Santorum
Thad McCotter
Newt Gingrich
Tim Pawlenty

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COMMENTS

  • George Neitz

    You came in to this looking like a long shot and now have come further than most of us ever expected you to, it is now time to admit this is not your time or destiny and retreat to a safe place for a while.

  • BigRedConservative

    But whilst it sounds good-smart, reasonable and qualified Representative, there is the obvious stumbling block-he’s a Representative, and the last time that a Representative ascended straight to the Oval Office was James Garfield, approximately a million years ago. Also, Ryan will most likely get ripped apart by the Obama machine-he doesn’t have the charisma or oratory (read autocue skills) to compete with Obama.

    Give him a few more years, and he might be “ready”. Until then, we need him right where he is, in the House.

  • clintonformccain

    The only place I’ve ever heard the name mentioned is on Red State. He was deader than a door knob in this race before he ever started. The only reason he’s made it this far is Erik talking about him all the time. :)

  • izoneguy

    He has great smarts about the economy.

    But that is where it ends.
    He has no executive experience.

    With the pushback that Perry is getting on
    his SS & Medicare stands I cannot imagine
    Ryan getting out of the gate,
    The dems have already elevated him as the
    grandma killer posterboy.

  • bs61

    Despite my repeating twitting to Ann Coulter, she still is holding out for him! Which speaks volumes.

    http://conservativenewjersey.com/the-myth-of-christie-conservatism-intro

  • DerKrieger

    “Because so much of the consultant class will be shut out of the White House should Rick Perry win, their livelihoods depend on Rick Perry losing either now or in November. And frankly, for a few in the GOP consultant class, they?ll gladly see Perry lose in November just to ensure they are not shut out of a Republican White House.”

    They are as bad as the Democrats when it comes to self-interest before country. These people are destroying the country to satisfy their own egos. We desperately need to devlove power out of DC and back to the states and localities where the power of politicians is less and they can be more easily held accountable.

  • DerKrieger

    “Because so much of the consultant class will be shut out of the White House should Rick Perry win, their livelihoods depend on Rick Perry losing either now or in November. And frankly, for a few in the GOP consultant class, they?ll gladly see Perry lose in November just to ensure they are not shut out of a Republican White House.”

    They are as bad as the Democrats when it comes to self-interest before country. These people are destroying the country to satisfy their own egos. We desperately need to devlove power out of DC and back to the states and localities where the power of politicians is less and they can be more easily held accountable.

  • Otto Mattic

    I haven’t decided who I’ll vote for in the primary, but I’m REALLY disappointed in this site’s smug dismissal of Ron Paul. I’ve seen his supporters insulted, blasted and all but ignored on this site. I’ve seen them accused of being mindless, robotic and rude. I’ve seen his candidacy dismissed repeatedly with seven words: “Ron Paul will not be the nominee”.

    I thought RS was the place for civil, open-minded discourse. What is so threatening about Dr. Paul that turns otherwise reasonable people into bigots? Why does RS seem to be aligning itself with the MSM, which loves to pretend he doesn’t exist?

    Yep, Ron Paul may not be the nominee. But here’s a news flash: all but ONE person will NOT be the nominee. Why not simply dismiss all but the one person RS thinks has the best shot? That would make for some truly enlightening coverage.

  • bs61

    About the Tea Party and Paul Ryan. While I appreciate his guts to bring up cutting spending, he takes too long!

    The Republican Study Committee bill did it much faster.

  • gekster

    it is being reasonable.
    Anyone who thinks for themselves supports anyone else.

  • Darin_H

    Perry’s a man who plays to win. I loved Fred last time around (in March well, well before his announcement, and have an old diary to prove it), but by the time he entered the race and his sad entrance really left me wanting more. I want someone who will fight for every vote. I want someone who takes on all comers. That wasn’t Fred, as much as I wanted it to be.

    After his beat down of KBH and his “Fed Up” book, I really wanted Perry to jump in. We have a lot of young’uns in governorships (Jindal, Scott, Walker, Kasich, Chistie, Haley), so we were left with Barbour, Perry, Daniels for the most part and the leftovers from 2008. I was disappointed when he kept demurring, I didn’t think he’d change his mind and we’d be stuck with a lesser candidate.

    I’m thrilled to have him in the race. Long sitting governor, plenty of tough races fought and won, communication skills, and mostly conservative (every candidate has their policy negatives, and I’d have them too if I ever ran) is just about everything I could want in a candidate and nominee.

    With his history, I’d put Perry tied with Romney for the lead right now (1a & 1b). His entrance wasn’t a flop like Fred’s, and he’s got the president already sparring with him, nothing more you could ask for the first week. Great for a man who apparently loves the fight of a campaign.

  • scottinsc

    I was at one of the two events in South Carolina this week and I have to take issue with the argument that she seems aloof and won’t mingle. While that may have been the case elsewhere, I can say that she was an hour late to the event I attended due to her desire to meet and greet everyone at the preceding event. And at our event, she hung around afterward to shake hands and meet and greet everyone there who wished to do so.

    I was very impressed with her delivery, her focus on Obama, and her knowledge based upon the questions she was asked. Sadly, all that was covered was the Elvis faux pas – classic mainstream media. Thankfully, they have since picked up her mentioning her goal to reduce the gas price down to under $2/gallon. While it may be an impractical goal, I’d rather have a president who makes this a goal and doesn’t achieve it (shoot for $2 and only get to $2.50 – I can handle that) than one who doesn’t understand why you can’t sustain spending more than you have at a rate of more than two to one.

    And in regards to her competition with Rick Perry – of course Rick Perry is riding high in the numbers now. No one knows much about him. He’s new and fresh and has attracted a lot of media. His numbers have almost no where to go but down, though. Once people have a chance to check him out and make their decision, his numbers will go down some. How much they go down – that remains to be seen.

    At this point, Bachmann is my candidate of choice, with the verdict still out on Perry.

  • bs61

    Wasn’t that the Rasmussen Poll for Ron Paul? Even if RedState endorsed him, he would never win the election.

    I love his fiscal policies, but cannot vote for his dangerous foreign policies.

    Add to that all of the message boards I read have Anti-Jew comments from Ron Paul supporters.

  • utahtim

    Yes, yes, yes!

  • griffinelection

    Right now Christian Conservatives are trying to figure out who will represent them. That is why I won’t count out Bachmann or Perry as they both still have the potential to get social conservatives on board and it will be important for us to pick one of them in 3 or 4 months because dividing social conservatives is the only path to victory for Mitt Romney, the father of gay marriage and universal healthcare in America.

  • Common_Cents

    nahhhhh!

  • scottinsc

    This is too often how we make our decisions. But that is the whole POINT of the primary system. If the number of people who liked Bachmann, for example, would actually vote for her, then she’d do great. But they have swallowed the bait from the MSM that she can’t win. Well she can’t if she doesn’t get the nomination! I have some good, conservative friends who are supporting Romney. Why? Because they think he has the best chance to win. ESPECIALLY in the primary season we need to vote for who we think is BEST – regardless of how we think they’ll do in the general election. We’re never going to get what we want if we don’t vote for whom we want – it’s as simple as that.

    Let the MSM control the agenda and create the identity of the candidates and they will. WE need to be the ones determining their identities, Bachmann is a strong, viable candidate. So is Rick Perry. So are others. Don’t dismiss them because of how the MSM reports on them.

  • Common_Cents

    If she doesn’t run, she’ll still wield tremendous influence on being a great fundraiser and name recognition.

    I’ve read that Perry had talked to her before running. It would be interesting to know what communication she has had.

    Wonder if she would consider being a running mate again? I think the campaign that she could turn around most quickly would be Gingrich.

    I see Bachmann in a similar light as Palin as important endorsements, great for fundraising, attack dog on obama, rallying the base, connecting w/ tea partiers.

  • notpropagandized

    Sizing up this analysis makes me think that for USConstitution-oriented voters that the best way to make the revolutionary changes necessary in USGovt is to get rock solid supermajorities in the House and Senate. Because if Romney caters to GOP consultant class and wins, then EstablishmentDemsReps will still control at least 1/3 of USGovt. This is not looking so good because a congressional supermajority will still include RINO’s.

    This is not looking so good. I was thinking that RepublicanEstablishment would end up running with TeaParty, but it seems that the BraveHeart example will win out: Royalty will side with Royalty.

    Come on Erick, give me some real hope. This is depressing….

  • utahtim

    This time around, we’d like a fighter. Sadly, Fred was never that as he proved in the Senate. I believe Perry is a fighter, and things will indeed get interesting.

  • Whacker77

    It will interesting to see how Rick Perry navigates the trail. He’s clearly the best campaigner out there, but whether he can keep from making too many odd comments is the question. I think he will be able to do so, but whatever he says will get hyped to the max and blown out of proportion so he must be mindful of that.

    As for Ryan, I don’t get the love for him. He’s a wonk and an inside baseball type of guy. As a Congressm, he has no path to the nomination, but if he did win all we would hear about is Medicare. That’s a loser for Republicans. The idea it’s good to talk about SS and Medicare in a campaign is suicidal.

    I also can’t go without mentioning someone Erick did not, Palin. Honestly, I don’t know what she’s doing, but revving up her bus tour every time someone enters the race is just so transparent. While she may make some conservatives warm and fuzzy, she is too polarizing and would be the gift of a lifetime for Obama.

    Right now, I think Palin is planning to run. Where she to run, I don’t think she’d know when to quit and would likely subject the party to a long and painful primary that results in a thrid party run.

  • Castor

    Picture this: Iran goes nuclear and a weapon is smuggled in a container sailing in a vessel from a neutral port for New York. When the container arrives in New York harbor the device is detonated. Two million Americans die. Something like this would be the result of Ron Paul?s election to the presidency. Eric is right. He will not be the nominee.

  • JSobieski

    The rationale for a Ryan candidacy is as follows:

    (1) Whomever the nominee is is going to have Medicare reform Ryan-styled wrapped around their neck

    (2) f the nominee is not adept at address the issue, the nominee could lose or almost just as bad, jettison entitlement reform as an election topic (even Bachmann embraced Ryan medicare reform with an “asterix” — see Wallace interview)

    SO

    (3) To protect House and Senate candidates, and even more importantly, to protect the issue of entitlement reform, Ryan runs. This gives him more air time to make the case to the American people for entitlement reform. It would also focuse the R candidates to get specific/engaged on this issue, rather than what is happening now.

    In short, the effort is not so much to get Paul Ryan elected as it is to has someone assertively defend a plant for what needs to be done.

    Nobody in DC (or Austin) is as good as being the happy warrior on this issue, and this issue is in many ways THE issue

  • hexan

    Romney won’t win the nomination. Period.

    1. Money at this phase is not as important as the general election. Primary voters pay much closer attention a to candidate’s postions.

    2. Evangelicals will not come out for Mitt, even if his positions mirror theirs. It’s a Mormon thing.

    3. His climate change stance is untenable and cannot be credibly repudiated.

    4. RomneyCare tamps down the enthusiasm with the very base he will need to beat Obama. Obama-lite will not bring out conservative voters in November.

    5. The “beltway class” is wrong with such frequency that their opinion is has become a contrarian indicator.

    6. Based on history, Mitt has played defense remarkably well. This indicates nothing. He’s been a weak front-runner in an otherwise weak field.

    7. Romney’s first volley was Perry’s “lack of private sector” experience. Herman Cain has lots of private sector experience. How’s that helping him?

    The only scenario where Mitt wins is a Howard Dean-style implosion. Given Perry’s history and experience, it’s highly unlikely, but possible.

  • izoneguy

    What a platform to slam Obama.
    Perry is saying what we say to our friends
    and think about all the time.
    Global Warming – meh – Perry needs to slam the lid
    on that boiling pot of hot air.

    And the irony is – many writers and bloggers are painting him
    as the establishment candidate.

    If no one in DC votes for Perry – that is fine by me.

    Rick we got your back – give em hell!

  • JSobieski

    The idea is the meet the issue head on. The logic is that anything less will ultimately result in no reform in 2013, since the Rs will inevitably back off.

    We need someone to make this case to the American people day in and day out. Someone who can get across to moderates as well as to our own people.

    Someone with some credibility in the Tea Party as well as from the establishment types.

    Entitlement reform is a pontentially huge electoral weakness, so the logic is in hitting it straight on.

  • scottinsc

    I think Palin is ruined as a general candidate. We let the media totally destroy her and slander her and were afraid to counter. That, and she didn’t help herself in the Couric interview, etc. Bachmann needs to be on her guard because the media is out to do the same to her. She needs to either answer forthrightly or deflect firmly. Waffling and stumbling through a non-answer won’t help and will greatly hurt.

    Bachmann needs to be very careful or her candidacy will be ruined just the same as Palin. And there’s no way Palin could make it in a general candidacy, unfortunately.

  • JSobieski

    So it is wise to watch out what you wish for.

    The “electability” card is also what keeps a lot of people from splitting off from teh Republican party altogether.

    if the logic of voting for the best candidate applies in the primary, it applies in the general.

    If the logic of electabilty applies in the general, it also applies in the primary.

  • msctex

    McCain v 2.0, the Democratic choice for the Republican nominee. He is, God help me, shooting a spread for Vogue Magazine.

    Something tells me Vogue would have had no interest whatsoever in such a thing, were this not planned long ago and with a fantastical sense of optimism. If there was ever any doubt this guy was to be the Democratic fallback position, this should erase it.

  • graytemples

    I absolutely love the guy. As much as I admire and respect Rove, I have to side with Perry in the “foodfight”.

    My only concern about Perry, is……I genuinely hope there has been not a scintilla of infidelity in his background, ever……if there has, it will surface and he will be toast…….he will be ground up like no ever has before

    I hoped that when he was considering the race, that he and his folks were brutally candid with one another on this issue…..

    Thinking positively, would love nothing better than to see him in the WH sticking it into the eye of the elite Repubs along with the Dems

  • BigRedConservative

    We are talking about the same man? The man who cut $1B from spending as soon as he landed at the Governor’s Mansion? The man who wields the veto like a sword, vetoing 14 bills in one session (or more, my memory fails me)? The man who took on the unions, cut their pensions and benefits and removed the tyrannical COLA provision that is killing American business? The highly qualified gentleman with proven executive experience, who has strong and unshakable pro-life convictions? I don’t expect him to run, but I consider him a conservative, and if he were to run it would alter considerably my view of the field considerably.

    P.S I looked at link you provided. Most of it is bunkum (opposing a flat tax is not a tax rise, for example) and the few negatives (minor tax rises, for example) are far outweighed by the positives.

    P.P.S. The technical term is tweeting, not twitting

  • notpropagandized

    I’m hearing from a reliable and otherwise cautious evangelical that Christie is BOTH fiscal and social conservative. For now, I’ll go with that source that I know.

  • CMaree

    At least that’s what I am reading in many links like Canada Free Press:

    “During a time when Ron Paul supporters are complaining, with some justification, about the major media not giving their candidate?s success in Iowa enough attention, the Texas congressman is getting enormously favorable coverage from a foreign propaganda outlet?Russia Today television.”

  • Otto Mattic

    In other words:
    1) Ron Paul supporters aren’t reasonable and can’t think for themselves.
    2) Anyone who is thinking for themselves will support anyone BUT Ron Paul.

    Wow. +1 for civil discourse and open-minded discussion.

  • Toby Calvert-Lee

    The base likes him now, but if he were to jump in, his votes on the bailouts, Medicare Pt. D, and SCHIP expansion would prove that he is not as much of a fiscal conservative as people thought. Also, his budget, while being solid on entitlement reform, did not eliminate a single department or program, it just cut them all back. All is not how it seems. Also, I believe if he were to get in, since he hasn’t been laying campaign groundwork, he would find it hard to catch up with those who do. And a note on Palin. If she were to get in, her poll numbers will only decrease. I am a HUGE Palin fan, don’t get me wrong. But she has gotten to be a little bit ridiculous lately, and she has become almost too paranoid about media bias. All of this will add up to her being a poor candidate honestly. Even I can’t bring myself to defend her for quitting the governorship. Ultimately, I think she would start out strong, but like Erick says, when she is completely destroyed, another Conservative (hopefully Perry) will rise from her ashes.

  • kinghenry

    from a Paultard of course, trying to find Strippers and Gays who have had sex with Rick Perry. Seriously.

    must see: http://www.mediaite.com/online/ron-paul-supporter-runs-full-page-newspaper-ad-seeking-possible-rick-perry-mistresses/

  • gekster

    ………………………………….

  • kinghenry

    and not at all a Conservative, he is an Anarcho-Capitalist nutjob and disgrace.

    That said, I want sites like this and especially the Major Media to Give Ron Paul Lots and Lots and Lots of “First Tier” Coverage and “First Tier” Scrutiny and exposing.

    It wouldn’t take long from that point that we would be done with Ron Paul for good, in polite society. He would be destroyed politically.

    The benefit would be the handful of sane people attracted out of ignorance and by rhetoric to his campaign would be shamed away for good.

  • gregorysstewart

    Number 5 should be a bumper sticker.

    While I agree with your list, I would also give props to Romney for trying to distinguish between himself and Perry without breaking the 11th commandment.

  • Toby Calvert-Lee

    n/t

  • Otto Mattic

    I don’t endorse Ron Paul, and I’m not proposing that RS should either. I just think the “we won’t even give Ron Paul the time of day” treatment reflects very poorly on Erick and this fine site. It smacks of bias, something we accuse the left of day-in and day-out.

    When/if Ron Paul’s campaign implodes, move him to the out-of-the-running list. Right now, though, he can’t be both in the race and out of it.

  • notpropagandized

    It’s cute to see RonPaul supporters continue with their selfish views. Some vow to ruin the prospects of a different nominee by staying home. The insistence that their man should be considered despite the dismissal by others is understandable, but persistent whining is counterproductive.

    It would be neat to try on RonPaul and the isolationist approach and see if it could succeed. Right now, so many otherwise sympathetic conservatives, TeaPartiers and others are abhorred by the prospects of leaving our enemies unconfronted, knowing that communications and mobility of today make us highly vulnerable.

    It would be nice to try and not get militarily involved so easily, but Obama had a beautiful opportunity to do that with Libya, particularly after criticisms of Bush, and he not only got involved, he did it with no plan or determination to win and get the hell out.

    Back to dismissal. If I wanted HermanCain to be nominee or to get media attention and voter agreement as to his candidacy, but was foiled repeatedly, should I hold out to the end and not vote for whomever. Look, there’s no way I want Romney to win, but if he does, I’ll vote for that Morman chameleon. It’s more important to vanquish our CommieInChief than to sign on to more destruction of the greatest society known to modern man on planet Earth. For that matter, if RonPaul wins, he gets my vote and full support.

  • gekster

    You will see he has been more than discussed, and found wanting.
    You will also see the majority of his supporters are “nutjobs” who fail to see the hypocrosy “railing against pork all the while taking it’,
    the fake suppport “bussing in supporters to skew poll #s” along with several other issues.
    I and Red state are not new to Ron Paul and the nutjobs that support them.
    and most of the time if you ask a RP supporter a tough question about RP, they ignore you or run to another thread.
    We know all about RP.

  • JSobieski

    In fairness, nobody else in the House has proposed more significant cuts than Ryan has, so if Tea Party people rejected him for that failure, the would essentially need to reject everyone.

    The point of a Ryan run is to reshape the debate that is not really occurring among the Presidential candidates. That is the fact that Dick Morris, Rush, and others seem to be missing.

    If the Republican candidate is not hardened to specifically support specific types of Medicare reform, those reforms will NOT happen in 2013 even if we control every branch of government.

    This is an issue that requires convincing the public. Ryan will only run if he thinks (correctly at this point in my view) that no other candidate is both willing and able to do the hard work of consistently educating the public.

    To view the Ryan run under a conventional framework would be a mistake. His candidacy would be a true issues-based candidacy.

  • clintonformccain

    Both are the resident nut-jobs of their respective parties, guaranteed to make you cringe at the whacky stuff they say in every debate.

  • runner12

    And you wonder why people think those who support RP are nuts….

  • runner12

    I especially appreciate the honesty with which Paul Ryan was discussed. While I appreciate what Ryan has done, he is not a perfect candidate.

    First of all, he is coming from the House and that is a huge hurdle for him. Those who complained about the lack of governing experience of Bachman would have to apply the same critique to Ryan or risk looking like a hypocrite or worse.

    Secondly, while his budget was a good starting point there are better plans out there that address SS as well as Medicare (RSC plan ). The RSC balances the budget sooner as does the Mack- Penny plan. Ryan is not on board with the Mack-Penny plan, by the way.

    Lastly, he has had some questionable votes that do not exactly line up with the fiscal conservatism he is spouting. He was too willing to go MIA during the debt-ceiling debate and seems to be in line with the establishment. It is important to note that it is the old Republican guard that is pushing him to run.

    I don’t think Ryan is a RINO or really even uber squishy, but he is squishy enough that his issues need to be pointed out and discussed.

  • gawken

    Romney is now playing catch up, and will do so until he concedes. Perry’s “robustness”, his magnetism, far supasses Mitt’s. I can’t see Mitt laying a glove on Perry in the rest of the debates this year.

    Perry will do OK in Iowa and in NH, and he will easily win SC and Florida…unless..unless..Palin decides to come in, which she well might do now.

  • acat

    The gutless D.C. wing of the GOP.

    And it is nice to see that, so far, we’ve not had much bruising going on, and that Pawlenty got out once his path to the White House became closed.

    I expect that to change for the worse, as some who should drop out are not following Pawlenty’s lead….

    Mew

  • acat

    Thank you for writing it up more coherently than I can.

    Mew

  • acat

    Some percentage of the consultant class will have to find real work.

    Mew

  • runner12

    wants him to. Sorry Jsob, but all of the old guard Republicans are lining up behind him.

    I know that you are a supporter of his, but like any candidate or potential candidate he must be vetted. His votes on TARP, SCHIP, and the recent deals ased on accounting gimmicks will hurt him. You cannot make your primary platform fiscal conservtism when many of your votes have actually added to the deficit.

    I have been disapointed in Ryan lately. It seems that all of the sudden he has backed down from the boldness that he exhibited during the ObamaCare debates and when presenting his budget. I guess sometimes it is easier for some to stand up to the Dems than those in their own party.

  • JSobieski

    Who has a more detailed plan to deal with anything?

    Who does a better job of explaining entitlement reform to independent voters?

    Get caugh up in the establishment vs. tea party meme if you want, but this country requires SAVING.

    Even people like Bachman buckle when asked hard questions about entitlement reform. Nobody running is talking about anything specific.

    Mark my words, as things look now–there will be NO entitlement reform in 2013 . . . even if we win.

  • tonystake

    Didn’t JFK go from the House to the White House?

  • acat

    Unlike Dennis, Ron and Lyndon both built disciplined cadres of .. disciples?

    Mew

  • silentcal2012

    He can offend and alienate people, and remind them of George W. Bush at a rapid rate.

    By the way, a new poll shows Romney still has a large lead in NH, as he does in NY and CA, despite all the Perry hype.

  • JSobieski

    The democrats have, for example, tried to paint Boehner as a reasonable person who is hostage to the tea party movement.

    I don’t know why people on our side are so eager to think like Senator Schumer.

    I actually disagree with people like Schumer.

    When Bachmann, Perry, or Romney actually put out a plan that reforms entitlements, please let me know. This is not a game or a beauty contest. The country actually needs saving.

    Ryan’s Roadmap was far superior to the CCB plan that everyone seems to love. Ryan’s roadmap is also superior to the budget approved by the establishment and tea party GOP house members alike.

    If you don’t think educating the public on the issue of medicare reform is important, then I guess it is going to be a painful couple of decades.

  • phenry

    “The boys from California are pikers compared to the boys from Texas.” But you just got done explaining how the boys got Texas got creamed by the boys from California with Reagan v. Bush. Makes no sense.

  • phenry

    nt

  • clintonformccain

    All of the so-called “new” polls of the Republican race were done on Monday or Tuesday of this week, at the latest. That’s only a day or two after most of America even saw what Rick Perry looks like for the first time. Utterly meaningless.

    Even if you want to put stock in polling this early, at least wait ’til you have candidates actually campaiging in a state like NH. Otherwise, it’s just a measure of name-recognition.

  • kinghenry

    admitted it yesterday on his website
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/politicaltheatre/2011/08/ron-paul-as-george-mcgovern/

    Paul is even farther out there than McGovern 1972

  • gekster

    Before that Kennedy represented Massachusetts’s 11th congressional district in the U.S. House of Representatives from 1947 to 1953

  • gregorysstewart

    I am not so sure that Rove and Co. would wish for a Perry loss if he were to be the GOP nominee.

    Guys like Carl Rove stand no chance of being shut out, even if Perry wins. Rove is part of American Crossroads, and they bring a whole lot of money into each campaign. At one point, if Perry is the nominee, Perry and Rove would need to find a way to get along for their MUTUAL benefit. It may be that Rove spends the Crossroads money, promoting GOP senate candidates, but if Perry were to become president he would need those new senators anyway. Rove for his part would have an easier time raising money for the GOP if Perry beat Obama, (or any Republican beat Obama for that matter.)

    Rove and Perry are more like fr-enemies than sworn adversaries to the death.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Reading comp.

  • clintonformccain

    Three terms in the House, then elected to the Senate in 1952 and re-elected in 1958.

  • Aaron Gardner

    GOP Primary: Perry 29%, Romney 18%, Bachmann 13%

    This is a poll of likely Republican primary voters. I would be interested in seeing other polls that are out there and are of likely Republican primary voters.

  • Adjoran

    at least not in sufficient amounts to make a difference – as if ANY amount of money could buy GOP primary voter respect for a guy who wrote that fawning, butt-kissing love note to Obama after being named Ambassador to China.

    Wipe that ring from your nose, Jon, and go home now.

  • silentcal2012

    Enjoy it.

    Of course, that was before be was blowing kisses at Romney, threatening the Fed Chair, and people learned about his Democratic and compassionate conservative roots and Gardisal, open borders and his crony capitalism, while twanging his way through NH:

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/08/18/romney-still-ahead-in-nh-after-gop-primary-shake-up/

  • onemovoter

    Chris Christie is basically a conservative and talks and walks most of the way but, he does have a few issues like 2nd amend and I think abortion that would be show stoppers for quite a few people.

    The only reason why Ann likes him is his standing up like a man to the unions in a blue state. However on a national stage he’d be more of a Mittens than a Perry. Each with their own shades of conservatism.

    Also he’s got a problem now that NJ was just downgraded on it’s credit rating.

  • izoneguy

    Is his health.

    So if he becomes the nominee the VP pick should be solid.

  • silentcal2012

    Romney 36% and Perry 18%. Despite all the hype, he is well behind and he’s not going to close that gap.

  • Aaron Gardner

    so it isn’t really a valid 1 to 1 comparison. But you aren’t really here to have a discussion, as is apparent from your entire comment history here.

    Have fun being outrageously outraged.

  • Vegas_Rick

    Which is why, if Romney is the nominee, I will have a very difficult time working for him. I WILL do it because I’m an anybody but Obama kind of guy.

    Having said that, the elites in the GOP are worse than the Dems when it comes to party over country. I simply HATE Karl Rove and the rest of the “Bush cabal”. As Matt Lattimer said, if Perry can win, it will probably be the end of the GOP consulting class. All the more reason to elect Perry.

  • onemovoter

    After I got done reading this article:

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45562

    I was able to understand the Perry campaign much better and be more confident in him and his handlers. It is going to take a very shrewd team who knows how to get attention and turn it positive. Reagan had the same ability with a good team.

    Some might say it might be manipulative, but really I’ve learned being in the political environment that it really is dog eat dog if you don’t know how to beat the other side engaged in much worse. You must figure out how to turn the liberal media on it’s head by out smarting them. I see the same thing with Palin. She’s learned her lesson in how to wrap the media around her little finger and get her message out correctly.

    Seeing Perry being able to wrap the media and the democrats around his little finger with what he’s been doing is a good sign. I have to agree with Gene Simmons that Perry will likely be the next prez.

  • BigRedConservative

    He’s leaving Congress next year, and no-one will ever be forced to take him seriously again, apart from his anti-Semite/truther friends.

  • lineholder

    I saw it a few days back, and in light of the present conversation, thought it might provide some information in the present conversation.

    http://theweek.com/article/index/218288/why-isnt-paul-ryan-on-the-debt-super-committee

    I’ve got my share of questions about Ryan. Then again, I’ve got questions about all of them right now. But I think part of the questioning process for me personally has to do with the fact that the situation our country is facing is dire, I do love this nation, and I just don’t want to see us get “duped” by another poser.
    Hence, I’m very, very cautious. Very.

  • kinghenry

    with a loyal, cult really group of followers with money behind it. He’s not going to be gone, will continue to find the stupidest candidates out there and tell his cult to follow them and annoy the hell out of us. Like Medina in Tx last year, see who they are running against George Allen, etc.

    Unfortunately, mainly College age and under 30 kids have him on their facebook pages and C4L list and get notified all the time about how evil Rush Limbaugh and pretty much all Conservatives are, you know “Neo-Cons”.

  • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

    .. and save us little people from feeling the need to sort out this chaotic mess. We need to focus on our families and keeping our jobs while we can before we devote ourselves to the 2012 election to defeat Obama.

    As for you consulting class — shame on you. You know you play friendly with the progressives and leftists all the time. I know times are tough, but must we see dog-eat-dog in every strata?

    This is too high school.

  • phenne

    … loser (Thom Hartman) that presents “diametrically-opposed to our Founding Fathers” views in 5-9min. YouTube clips.

    SO you are half-right. But RedState ain’t that. And, it certainly IS NOT any part of Thom Hartman.

    Visit and learn, watch him speak, its FUN!!!! (barf alert)

    http://www.thomhartmann.com/

  • victrola

    I personally doubt the rumors are true, but Christie would be formidable in both a primary and general election. It would also allow Republicans to expand the electoral map, I see Christie playing well in places like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and of course New Jersey.

    The problem with a Paul Ryan candidacy is the whole election will be about MediCare reform. You start talking about changing the most popular middle class entitlement, and seniors will run into Obama’s arms. Unfortunate, but something Republicans need to be careful with. I also think Paul Ryan will have a hard time finding the “high ground” with his votes on things like TARP. He’s absolutely brilliant, but he’s not an Executive, he’s a wonk, and I think what Americans are craving right now is leadership.

    It’s a Perry vs Romney race right now, and if Romney wins it will be because Bachmann split the vote.

  • scottinsc

    I would disagree on the issue with evangelicals. As a right wing religious nut job (might as well embrace it!) I don’t give a rip that he’s a Mormon. We’re electing a president – not a spiritual leader. In terms of ethics and morality, Mormonism is close enough for me on most issues. My big concerns, from your list, are 1, 4, 6 & 7. With the right, however, the health care mess in Mass is enough to keep most from considering him – and that includes me. That’s the deal-breaker for me.

  • streiff

    compete, much less win, in a GOP primary.

    Christie is a tough guy, no doubt, and he’s doing a lot of hard work in NJ but he’d wear about as well as a Rudy Giuliani nationally.

  • Scope

    Or your buddy Romer.

    I hear for $1 million dollars that Mike Gravel is willing to primary Obama, LOL

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    I agree. Abortion, AGW, and probably other issues as well would put me off of Gov. Christie. That being said, he is the most likeable and useful Moderate GOPer I’ve seen come along in years.

  • justpeachy

    There are many reasons I won’t be supporting Mitt in the primary but I assure you him being Mormon is not one of them. Anyone that has a problem with him being Mormon must not know a Mormon. I’ve found them to be the most ethical, honest, steadfast friends and employees I’ve ever had. If people are really playing that card they need to get out and visit a Mormon church so they can get to know the good people they are.

  • scottinsc

    The arrogance and condescension they show make it possible for anyone to win, IMHO. They ridicule and mock and even for those who don’t like Palin or Bachmann or whomever, most people find that rude and disrespectful.

    I’d look more at who the WH picks on the most and who the left most ridicules and demeans. From what I see, that would be Bachmann. If they’re such non-factors, then why bother giving them the attention?

    Whoever they say they’re most afraid of is exactly the person they hope we nominate – classic reverse psychology because they think most voters – except liberals – are stupid.

    Like I said before, I think Palin is history and can’t run successfully. She and we let her be just destroyed in the media. Bachmann has a chance to get through it if she plays her hand smart – or, more importantly, if her STAFF plays her hand smart. We’ll see.

  • Ghost of John Brown

    LMAO!!!!!

  • acat

    Luap Nor!

    If Ron Paul’s presidential campaigns were movies, we’d have:

    1988 “Ron Paul from the black lagoon”

    Two decades later, some Hollywood type would dust it off and “reboot” it:

    2008 “The Return of Ron Paul”
    2012 “Ron Paul 3: The revenge of the Paulistines”

    I do not expect him to go quietly.

    Mew

  • acat

    is just fine with me .. I’m convinced Roemer is just in for the retirement money.

    Mew

  • acat

    (inquiring cats want to know)

  • victrola

    Don’t for a minute this that “any” Republican can win. I can point to Sharon Angle, Ken Buck and Christine O’Donnell for examples on where that type of thinking got us.

    The Left was REALLY hoping that would have got to run against Palin, but they would take Bachmann as a consolation prize. Despite all the mud that is being thrown at her, they would be doing backflips if we nominated her.

    They’re not throwing mud at her because they’re scared, they’re throwing mud because they’re hateful people in general, and she’s a convenient target.

  • Scope

    about Karl Rove, and his own reputation. Perry did his rounds to insure he had the funding to run for the presidency before he even got in. As head of the Republican Gov. Assoc., he outraised Haley Barbour, the previous head. Perry has been the Gov. for 11 years, and held public office before that. He is a proven successful fundraiser. I suspect with his record of business growth in Texas, he can attract some major business dollars. Perhaps some of all those dollars that businesses are hoarding will make it to a pro-business candidate Perry. I am quite certain that Perry has developed his own list of donors, aside and apart from the Bush/Rove donors, or maybe to a small degree there is some overlap. With the fact that Rove and the Bushies supported KBH in the last Gov. race, he had to already know that he would not get much if any support from the Bushies and Rove. Maybe that was why he originally decided not to run. The feud going on between Perry and Rove/Bush didn’t just start lately, even though Rove at first denied it, but after his words on Fox last night against Perry, he opened any healing wounds that could have existed. Perry darn well knows they are actively trying to recruit someone, anyone that they think might have a shot against Perry in the race. Hate to say it, but it seems to me to try to recruit a House member speaks of desperation. If the Bush’s were not so unpopular, and toxic, why didn’t Jeb get into the race? Why didn’t the architect Rove push for Jeb? Yet now, the very same dynasty that are known as the Bush Derangement Syndrome owners, they are coming out attacking one particular GOP candidate?

    It is a mistake to give Rove more credit than he deserves. The electorate has changed drastically just in the last two years, and the last thing they will be fooled about is giving credit to any of the old guard. They are as good as obsolete dionsaurs. Perry will show the half Texan, half New Englanders where to put their blue blood and silver spoons, Texas style.

  • izoneguy

    Just like it is over for the Kennedy’s.

    Rove can hitch his wagon to Romney but that horse is lame.

  • Scope

    as to why some don’t particularly appreciate Paul supporters here. If you think gekster was participating in uncivil discourse, you need to take your little pansy arse back to the Daily Paul where they will agree with everything you say, and they will kiss you while they are at it. There is absolutely nothing, not one thing, that has not been discussed about Ron Paul here in both a polite manner, and mostly with a firm hold on reality that he is dangerous for America. His supporters are equally dangerous because they can’t see beyond their cult leader. By the way, Paul and his supporters are so open minded their brains have fallen out. They are walking talking pre-programmed dope smoking robots.

  • Scope

    You know that Ron Paul isn’t exactly a household name here at RS, yet you come here and tell the site owners/managers that they are being unfair to Paul. There is one thing the Paulbots are not smart enough to understand, you can’t sell a bag of garbage to those here that are willing to deal with reality, and readily shun fringe.

    It’s laughable that the Paulies are crying because Paul is ignored or shunned by the media. He had more face and interview time on Fox during the week of Iowa than any other candidate. He was on Fox constantly. Because Bachmann won the straw poll, fairly and squarely, Pawlenty dropped out, and Perry announced, Paul was not, nor should he have been all the news, all about Paul, all the time. He has gotten more than his fair share of time on Fox, and then some. Quite frankly Fox has been responsible for making him look like a mainstream candidate, rather than the kooky loon that he is.

  • Tbone

    Knowledgeable voters recognize he has no experience of consequence, particularly compared to a 3 term governor of Texas or a successful business guy and governor.

    Less knowledgeable voters will never even see him standing behind those two.

    If you can’t get elected as at least a Senator, ya got no business thinking about President.

  • Scope

    that a billionaire is willing to set up islands as libertarian islands, I guess to see if the ideology would work. I hope the dude goes for it. I hope it is set up as an experiment, away from the mainland where we would not be subjected if the experiment doesn’t work. Great deal, no?

  • paco12348

    I want someone with executive experience and military background. One or the other will do and both would be great. Obama needed OJT and is incapable of learning from his mistakes.
    Many of the candidates are good, strong people but lack the kind of experience we need at this time in our history. God help us if we get another loose headed, big spender.
    Bachman might as well fold her tent.
    Huntsman is off the radar.
    I wish Paul had a different take on our Military and the dangerous days in which we live.
    Cain is wonderful and I hope ends up in the next admiistration in some way. He has a lot to share.
    I like Perry but have to know more about issues like immigration and Bilderberg before he’ll get my vote.
    Romney is ok. I accept his explanation about RomneyCare and his Mormon faith does not bother me. I’ve never seen Mormon’s out suing over flying a Flag or the Pledge of A. being said or a prayer thanking God.
    If you want to deny someone over religion, deny Atheists. Deny Muslims. How could either swear on a Bible to uphold the Constitution? Of Course, that hasn’t stopped some in the goverment now and in the Supreme Court. It almost seems one must be a good liar to be in the government.

  • handyfiremedic

    Good Job Herman!!! I look forward to calling you Senator Cain in 2014.

  • Otto Mattic

    This is truly over the top and disgusting. No excuse for it. It think it’s pathetic. (And I’ve been accused of being a “pansy arse” Ron Paul supporter, which I’m not…)

  • Scope

    in “an alternative” Austin newspaper, asking for any hooker, escorts, or youngin’s that ever had sex with Perry to please step forward. The guy said he knows prostitutes in Austin who have had “relationships” with Perry, but just won’t come forward. This rumor is nothing but a rumor. There has never been the first bit of evidence that Perry was ever unfaithful to his wife. Oh, and she was supposed to be leaving him back years ago, because he is gay, but still hasn’t left. The gay rumors were started years ago by a lesbian Democrat in Texas.

    Paul, and his supporters are starting to make Obama/Axelrod look like inexperienced pikers.

  • izoneguy

    From Full Metal Jacket – This is what the race
    to the White House in 2012 will be like.

    *Warning CRUDE language & humor

    http://tinyurl.com/3qppl2n

  • rightwingmom52

    here

    When Ron Paul makes a public statement that he does not endorse or condone this kind of garbage, I might consider taking him seriously. Emphasis on might because there’s a lot more of this kind of thing he needs to condemn.

  • Scope

    I adore Herman Cain, and all of his successful experience in turning failing businesses around. I love his optimistic outlook, and his enthusiasm, however, he hasn’t gotten the spark he needs to go all the way. I really like Santorum, not so much because of his social policies, but because he is very knowledgeable about national security/foreign polices issues, but, I know he has very little to no chance.

    I have succumbed to the idea of the most electable in the primary that is electable, and the Republican in the general, unless it is Ron Paul. I will go with acat’s idea of voting for whatever Democrat candidate runs against Obama, and will draw votes away from him. Hel1, I’ll even vote for Mike Gravel if they give him $1 million to primary the O, that is if he manages to stay standing upright until election day.

  • ceili_dancer

    He said as an evangelical he couldn’t give a rip about being a Morrmon. Or, if you ar enot able to understand the phrase, he doesn’t care about him being Mormon. he had issues with Mitt on other more substansive problems.

  • Scope

    will be Palinized during the primaries, and it will get even more vicious in the general for the nominee, whoever it is.

  • acat

    then .. while it’s true that the Greens steal votes from the Dems (in the same way Libertarians steal votes from the GOP) I .. do not think I’ve ever said I’ll vote *for* a Dem.

    Illinois requires a declaration of party affiliation to vote in the primary, so .. to vote for a non-Obama Dem, i.e. “Operation Chaos”, I would have to give up the chance to vote for the best conservatives in the down-ticket races.

    As I do not trust my fellow Land of Lincoln GOPers (some of whom are mobbed up crooks) to vote for a conservative, I am unwilling to cross over in the primary.

    Mew

  • Scope

    I really don’t think Palin will run. Her last bus tour lasted all of 4 days, and she has gone back home to Alaska for the start of the school year. One can understand going home for jury duty, but before she came back out with the bus again, she sure knew that the school year was staring soon. I don’t believe she said anything about restarting the bus tour again.

    As to Rick Perry saying “odd” things has only gotten him more free media attention, even being called out by Obama, and of course the attacks by Rove and the Bushies will only help distance him from W, which is helpful. I personally don’t think what he said was “odd” at all. It was truth. The Democrats have already been trying to make him out as a Bush clone.

  • Otto Mattic

    I keep seeing those “Should Christie Run?” ads and I keep thinking, goodness, no–I think he should just stick to walking right now.

    Seriously, I love the guy’s passion but I’m concerned about his health. A heart attack is no respecter of politicians.

  • Scope

    The Ayatollah Paul. I wouldn’t worry so much about his finger being a heartbeat away from the Red button, but, I would worry that he would sell it to Iran.

  • gekster

    Is there any documentation where GW actually said anything about Rick Perry.
    I’m not talking about his supporters or mouth pieces, something that he actually said.
    I’m just ciutious if there is anything in GWs’ own words.

  • runner12

    name off of the top of my head that are better that the Ryan roadmap. They are the RSC budget and the Mack-Penny plan.

    Insuating that I do not think entitlement reform is not important because I have some concerns about a Ryan Presidential candidacy is patently ridiculous.

    I might also add that I am not “caught up in any meme” nor do I share any ideological positions with Schumer. I am simply a conservative first, and a Republican second. There are people in both parties in Washington who are corrupt and power-hungry. These are the big government, big spending Republicans who are pushing for a Ryan bid for the Presidency.

    You also failed to respond to my points that Ryan’s fiscal conservative platform has not always matched up to his voting record. I say that not to trash him, but
    just as a point of fact.

    I think that Ryan can articulate his points regarding entitlement reform without being President. In fact, he might actually be in a better position to do so from a leadership position in the house.

    Every candidate on the GOP side needs to be vetted, it is best not to take an emotional position when discussing these issues.

  • runner12

    I think Ryan is making a wise choice not to be on the super-committee. The reasons he gave did not surprise me as I thought that this was probably the case.

    My views on him being MIA during the debt-ceiling debate are in reference to the debats itself, not being on the super-committee.

  • Scope

    that the Ryan budget got little support even from Republicans. If I am not mistaken, the RSC plan cut even more, and faster. To bring up entitlement reform in a presidential candidacy is as it has always been, suicide. With a Republican in the WH, and majorities in both houses, they can do entitlement reform, and the Democrats can’t stop them. Just like the D pres, and D control couldn’t be stopped with Ocare.

  • gekster

    you have to forgive Scope.
    She is very passionate, and the amount of dealings with the Paulbots since Perry declaired has been to a point almost overwhelming,
    so the appearence of another potential Paulbot raises the hairs on the back of the neck.
    I took it at your third post that you are not.
    Forgive her this one mistake, she is a nice person once you get to know her, and (I say this with tongue in cheek) she is the little sister you never wanted.

  • Bill S

    The reason RedState banned Ron Paul boosters is because they ARE mindless, robotic and rude.

    As Leon wrote back in October, 2007, life really is NOT fair.

    Read that link if you need an explanation. Things have not changed since then, other than maybe the “ban Ronulans on sight” rule is more “let them whine for a bit and then ban them” now.

  • Bill S

    …or at least your sources are wrong.

  • Scope

    in Nh, NY and CA. THey are liberal states who want a moderate to lose again so they can keep their dream of socialism alive.

    Who did Perry offend and alienate, the liberals and the Paulies? He sure pleased a whole lot of Republicans/conservatives with his willingness to not suck up to anyone.

    Perry/Rubio 2012

  • Otto Mattic

    How about I take my “pansy arse” and do some research into how RS has vetted Ron Paul in the past? I’m sure I’ll uncover some valuable information. Are there any rational people in the Paul camp? Your last two sentences would imply that there are not.

  • Scope

    by the WH, as much as conservatives fear him changing his mind and getting in. Christie has been great on the teachers in NJ, and he did cut their benes, however, he took a chunk of those savings and plowed them into one of the biggest wind farms off the coast of NJ. NJ credit rating has been downgraded, as a result, I believe, of being to dependent on federal dollars, that may not be so forth coming. All in all, the blush has come off the rose of Christie, once he started getting more national attention.

  • Otto Mattic

    That was a good read. Too bad his supporters have earned such derision for their bad behavior. That helps nobody.

  • Scope

    you mentioned Bilderburg in your post. Do you have any info on what they have done, said, promoted? I haven’t been able to find any transcripts, meeting minutes, videos, or even audios of their meetings. Do you have any links that can provide proof of what really goes on with those dasterdley internationalists?

  • izoneguy

    I think Karl Rove asked Bush not to give Rick Perry any positive spin.
    In Bush’s book – Decision Points – there is no reference to Perry – anywhere.

    Bush writes in the book – ” I regretted not working with Karl during my congressional run in 1978. I never made that mistake again.”

  • JSobieski

    Who has done more for moving the ball forward on the entitlement issue?

    Bachmann? When push came to shove she even backed down on the Ryan Roadmap.

    Is Jordan a big government Republican? Is Jordan a DC elitist?

  • JSobieski

    I am all for vetting people and ideas. Vetting people based on who supports them is foolish.

    I have already pointed out that on a particular issue, you sound like Schumer and that you would agree with what he says.

    To either support or not support someone because of what some third party supports or does not support is to delegate your judgment to other people.

    Ryan wouldn’t even be running to win, he would be running to get at least one Presidential candidate to take the time to explain the need to reform Medicare merely than run from the issue.

    There is real work to be done, and I don’t see any of the leading candidates doing it.

  • Scope

    out there that was also rejected because it cut too much, and much faster than Ryan’s budget. There was an alternative to the Ryan plan.

  • runner12

    the Ryan plan? Did he submit two different plans? I think the RSC plan was a group effort led by Jordan. Whom, to answer your question, is not a DC elitist.

    But Karl Rove is. So is Kristol.

    Would you mind discussing the issues I brought up regarding a Ryan presidency? I am more than willing to discuss the issues surrounding the candidate I am leaning towards.

    Let’s stick to the issues. If we do, then we may be able to engage in a meaningful debate.

  • runner12

    with one response to my posts at a time. Could you also please dispense with comparing me and my statements to a radical Leftist like Schumer? It really is insulting.

    I would like to engage in a meaningful debate on this issue because I think it is important. But that will be difficult if personal insults are thrown out.

    I am NOT a Paul Ryan hater, but I have to be honest regarding some of my concerns regarding a Presidential run for him.

  • kestrel

    between advancing the major reforms that are his passion (and which are desperately needed), and not riling the leadership, lest he not get opportunities to advance the reforms. I admire his tight-rope-walking skill as much as his willingness to confront issues that no one else will touch, so I give him passes that I wouldn’t give to others. Some of his recent squishy votes appear to be calculated trade-offs that advance the long-term reforms.

    During the debt ceiling debate, Erick said Ryan was being “kept on a leash” by House leadership. I agree, and couldn’t have said it better, but I’d guess that Ryan also more or less acquiesced to the “leash” for reasons we don’t know. He did receive personal assurance from Boehner that Boehner would put good people on the new committee. While I strongly disagree with Ryan’s position on the debt deal, I’m willing to trust that he knows what he’s doing.

    I might be bothered more by some of his positions if I believed he really had a shot at winning the presidency in 2012, but I think JSob is correct that he’d be getting into the race partly to force debate on the substantive issues like entitlement reform and the need to harness the Obama spending juggernaut. That’s how it sounds here:
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/ryan-president_590273.html?page=1

  • Scope

    Ryan is being pushed by Rove Bush, as an alternative to Rick Perry. For the elitists it is all about beating Perry. As Rush pointed out today, there was never any talk among the establishment until Perry decided to get into the race. This isn’t about supporting a run from a candidate, it is all about supporting anyone or anything you think can take votes away from Perry. In all likelyhood, Ryan will probably stay with his plan not to run. He made it clear he didn’t want to run in 2012. If Ryan does get in, it is only to honor the establishment of Rove and the Bush’s.

    I am actually very surprised that you are supporting a Ryan run, when you have always made experience and electablity a priority. Do you really think that because Ryan wrote up a plan that that qualifies him for the presidency? Fred Thompson did yeoman’s work, at the end of his Senate term, in investigating the overlapping and redundant departments in the fed gov. That, combined with other issues, wasn’t enough to get him in the WH.

    I truly am surprised at the level of your support for Ryan. Is he really all that experienced for the presidency?

  • carolina

    hence, to make Romney look ‘conservative’ (enough)
    Don’t underestimate the power brokers (that are ABOVE the Bushies, because they put the Bushes into office in the first place)

  • gekster

    that its not so much that Bush doesn’t like Perry, but is allowing the appearence of it.

    Or maybe Bush is just going to sit this one out, so as to not taint Perry with the appearence of support.

  • JSobieski

    If Boehner ends up support Perry, does that make Perry an establishment republican.

    You agree with Schumer, but I won’t call you a Schumer Republican. Yet you use the fact that Jeb Bush supports Ryan to characterize Ryan as an establishment republican.

    I use the Schumer comparison to make a point—to characterize someone as tea party, establishment, rino based on who supports them is silly.

    Coulter supports Christie—does that make Christie conservative, or does that make Coulter a squish?

    Fred Thompson supported Reagan–did that make Reagan an establishment Republican or did it make Fred a Reaganite?

    I’ll bet you were calling Jordan a hero a couple of weeks ago. Now he appears to be part of the DC establishment. Who knows what he will be next week,

  • JSobieski

    I know people see certain words, and it triggers an automated response. Its quite disappointing to see this happen over and over.

    Just sprinkle in the word establishment DC beltway and people lose their minds.

    (1) I want Ryan to RUN because if we don’t force the nominee to talk about reforming Medicare in a specific way—IT WONT HAPPEN

    (2) Jim Jordan is asking for Ryan to run. Does that make Jim Jordan an establishment hack? Ann Coultier supports Christie? Does that make Coultier a liberal?

    The idea of characterizing someone based on whether “establishment” figures support or fail to support someone is absolutely silly.,

    The only way we can save the country is by educating voters who don’t already agree with us. Paul Ryan is better at that task than anyone else. If he gets into the debates, he will get more coverage and he will force the other candidates to up their game. That is why I want him to run.

    I realize that no matter what I say here, its just going to be interpretted as:

    I support establishment candidates.

    Me and Jim Jordan (remember him, the hero of the hour a couple of weeks ago?)–we both think having Ryan in the debates is a good idea.

  • JSobieski

    The only budget at the time braver than the Ryan budget was the Rand Paul budget. Later in time the Coburn plan and the Mackey plans came out. None of those people make voter education job 1 though. If they did, I welcome them at the Presidential debates as well.

    Even people like Bachmann or Palin won’t give unequivical support to the Ryan Roadmap. The RSC budget is a watered down version fo the Ryan Roadmap just as the Boehner plan was a watered down version of the CCB,

    Jordan is one of the people who really wants Ryan to run.

    I don’t want Ryan to be president Scope. I want him to run. Otherwise, I fear that nobody is going to discuss any specific entitlement refords.

    The most important obstacle facing entitlement reform is educating the American public. Who else do you see educating the American public on budget issues?

    We are at risk of winning elections without any kind of mandate to actually reform entitlements.

    The bottom line is that voter education needs to be job 1 here. If you want to preclude a good educator because of who supports him, that is your decision.

    I am voting for Perry, but I hope to God Ryan jumps in to shape the public debate.

  • izoneguy
  • pantera

    I’ll support whoever the nominee may be.

    The real horse race is who Palin picks for her VP.

    Palin/Ryan 2012 sounds good.

  • gekster

    any support from Bush might hurt Perry.
    Mybe Bush sees that.
    I guess we will never know.

  • msctex

    But it is not going to work.

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

    I was hesitantly supporting Pawlenty before the Ames straw poll, and have been secretly hoping for some new faces in the race. In all honesty, I’ve really been hoping that Perry would reconsider.

    I’m so glad he did. After evaluating him against the other candidates, as well as the potential candidates (Sarah Palin included—and I am a huge Sarah fan), I have to say that no matter who else declared, I’d really support Perry in the primary.

    So I’m sending him a letter and $500 and a request to get me plugged in with his peeps here in Florida. If anyone knows who is building Perry’s organization here, let me know!

  • carolina

    The people who selected Bush (both Bushs) to run for President have now selected Romney. W can NOT support Perry, even if he wanted to. That would be biting the hand that feeds you. Reagan is the only guy who has successfully bucked the power brokers. We’ll see if Perry can pull it off too. I hope he can!

  • californiagold

    Let’s be clear about something….

    Either Romney or Perry will be the republican nominee. All the talk about others entering the race is nonsense.

    But for fun, let’s examine the three potential names that continue to circulate.

    Paul Ryan – whoever is floating this guy’s name for president needs to get their head examined. Ryan has no executive experience, and made one of the biggest political blunders in recent memory. When Ryan’s name got tagged onto the republican budget that included the overwhelmingly unpopular medicare cuts, not only did that eliminate Ryan as a serious candidate for president, it also gave Nancy Pelosi a real potential to regain her speaker’s gavel.

    While I’m sure Ryan is a nice guy and was sincere with his budget proposal, the reality is he should never have offered a controversial budget knowing that it had no chance of passing the senate or being signed into law. Basically, Ryan gave the democrats new life and momentum to regain the house.

    Chris Christie – pro choice, moderate to liberal republican who governs a state that has just been downgraded. If Ann Coulter thinks this guy has a chance of winning, she needs to reexamine what it means to her to be a social conservative.

    Sarah Palin – As much as I like Palin, she consistently polls poorly with no real opportunity for improvement. Palin is the republican version of Hillary Clinton – a polarizing figure who would never win a nationwide election.

  • Scope

    that bringing up entitlement reform, whether it by Ryan or anyone else, will be the suicide of the Republican party nomination. You know as well as I that talking reform to entitlements is a deadly message in a campaign. Ryan would be crucified in the primary, and not only by the Democrats. You have to understand that you have to have the WH, and the both houses in order to enact any real change to entitlements. It is absolutely not the issues for any Republican to campaign on. Even Paul has avoided the issue, for the most part. You talk about electability being very important. The Ryan ad pushing grandma over the cliff should be a lesson to every candidate. You must first win the WH and majorities, and then go after the entitlement reform issue, when the Democrats have no real say in it. Why do they call it the 4th rail of politics? Because there are so many that are not willing to give up what they think is their due, and you know as well as I do that that includes Republicans.

  • Martin Knight

    Not as loudly as I’d like (being Governor of NJ and all) but still …

  • Scope

    it shouldn’t matter what state you come from.

  • clintonformccain

    beating Barack Obama in 2012. Having Paul Ryan push the debate onto shoving granny off a cliff may or may not further that issue…

  • runner12

    budget in a shorter period of time than the Ryan plan. It also tackled SS, which the Ryan plan did not. It is not a watered down version, it is actually more to the “right” of the Ryan budget, if you will. If you want more information regarding the RSC budget, you can google RSC budget and Red State. There were several good front page diaries that explained the bill along with discussions on its pros and cons.

    I see below that you did not read my post in which I stated that Jordan is not a DC elitist, but others who are pushing him are. This is a red flag for me. I am sorry if you find this offensive.

    I might also add that I do not make value judgements based on posts here. Just because you think Ryan should run does not mean that I think you support
    establishment candidates. It just means that you have a different opinion than me.

    I do not think Ryan has to get in the race in order for entitlements to be discussed. These issues will be forced upon us like it or not and each GOP candidate will have to articulate a plan for reform. I would like to see Ryan as the Majority Leader in the House or Fed Chair personally. He is a smart guy and I think he can do more in those positions.

  • Scope

    yet not many are talking about Bachmann’s support of Carter. I’m going to go out on a slim limb here, but, is this a gender thing?

  • streiff

    use all the time. “I’m personally against abortion but there is Roe v Wade….”

    Christie is as good as we’re going to get in a state like NJ or NY. We don’t need him running nationally.

  • runner12

    One that is more than likely accurate. He appears to think the Super Committee a waste of time, which I agree with. Ryan may indeed be walking a tightrope in order to advance a more conservative agenda. I will give him props for not shilling for the stinky debt deal, even though he voted for it.

    But when you run for President, even just to force an issue, you will come under greater scrutiny. Each vote you made will be explored and you will have to come up with a rationale behind each one. If the tightrope scenario is accurate, Ryan certainly would not be able to come out and say it and keep the establishment on his side. He would have to risk appearing to be squishy to the base. Therefore a Presidential bid might actually hurt what he is trying to do, rather than help it.

  • Scope

    Everyone deserves a thorough vetting, but, not every male Republican deserves to have a proctology exam every day. Is it a white male thing, because I am really starting to think that.

  • streiff

    but mentioning Bilderbergers in a non-ironic way will get you punted from the site.

    We don’t deal in conspiracy theories here.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Care to elaborate?

  • Scope

    Baier had a segment today about how black males were not being hired back when they are laid off, but, whites, even with a criminal record have been hired back first. Fox has gone over to the liberals side. Now we have no TV media that is on our side.

  • littlehouse18

    may have shut him out because The One refused to have any dealing at all if Ryan was within 10 blocks of the room. Pure speculation on my part, but we know Obama feels threatened by Ryan. Being a team player, Ryan accepts this.

  • acat

    in the news division.

    Mew

  • streiff

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/12/bachmann-snotty-gore-vidal-novel-turned-me-republican-video.php

  • izoneguy

    Since Perry declared and now Obama says he wants to run against Perry…..

    Well Mr. Obama – that is the whole reason Mr. Perry declared for your job.

    Rick will be going to the Central Valley in California to show the destruction the Obama administration has wrought.

    Rick will be going to the coal mines of West Virginia to talk with coal miners about what EPA regulations will do to them.

    Rick will travel to the Gulf of Mexico and ask the people of Louisiana how the Obama administration handled the Gulf oil spill.

    Rick will travel to Houston and visit NASA employees and get their thoughts on the end of the Shuttle program and ask them how that Muslim outreach program is going.

    Rick will travel to New York and visit with Donald Trump.

    Rick will travel to the heartland and ask farmers how new EPA regulations will impact their lives.

    Yes, from sea to shining sea we will see the Obama destruction up close & personal.

  • littlehouse18

    but how does Ryan present it? If this is his true goal versus getting elected, does he just lay it all out on the table? That would be a remarkable event in politics.

    This tightrope act is fraught with danger and opportunity. It may be an inevitable part of this race. I hope Ryan and the Republicans have some Wallenda in them!

  • Scope

    streiff posted a web address link for one article, there are many out there if you have the energy to look.

  • littlehouse18

    just like McCain. They’ll say he’s the only electable candidate. If he wins the nod, then I’m afraid they will swoop down with a vengeance on the Mormon thing. They’re probably saving up stories about every fringe ‘Mormon’ group on the planet doing various unacceptable things. It’s coming, They’re just busy working on Perry right now because they fear him.

  • acat

    This is a non-standard year, which is why Romney’s recycling his 2008 strategy is going to give him a harder row to hoe.

    The Tea Parties, and the ongoing government overgrowth make this an unusual year, much like 1980.

    Ryan would be crucified, yes. And, as I hinted at to JSob earlier, the loss of a GOP House Representative in exchange for (a) proving that the GOP does have a plan and (b) forcing the other GOP candidates to take a position on the Roadmap may be worth it. …

    (especially since Ryan can be appointed head of OMB and thus redeem his career)

    Mew

  • Ghost of John Brown

    The snark in my comment was pretty thick. There are probably 5-6 of these “candidates” that aren’t true candidates at all, but just trying to set themselves up for a job or promote a book.

    Maybe I’ll announce that I’m running for the Presidency for say 2 days so I can claim that I’m a “Former Presidential Candidate”

  • Scope

    the Fred Thompson campaign. That must be because they can’t compare him to W, now that W’s hit team has come out against him. This whole thing is actually making me wonder just how much class, and above it all, W really was. Being above it all, yet having a bulldog to do your dirty work doesn’t equate to class. It equates to the mindset of a dynasty, but, we all knew that anyway.

  • acat

    is far to the right of Christie on abortion, at least.

    So .. why compromise?

    Mew

  • acat

    W was strong on defense.
    W was strong on families.
    W was great – with a little pushing – on judges. (Alito and Roberts)

    W was weak fiscally, and got rolled by Reid and Pelosi .. badly.

    I am not saying he’s perfect, not even really defending him. Just saying that .. the man did good, so I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that Erick is right, and that it’s not the Bushes themselves, but some of the Bush people who know Perry won’t hire them.

    Mew

  • Martin Knight

    Speaking at Pro-Life Rallies? Check.
    Defunding Planned Parenthood? Check.

    This is just simply googling “chris christie pro-life” …

  • Scope

    because some don’t agree. Take a deep breath.

  • littlehouse18

    ..

  • Scope

    It is a fact that Ryan is a numbers wonky kind of ners, so to speak. Ryan is into numbers, charts etc to prove his point. We need to address the rest of the country that isn’t into numbers speak. Sorry to say, but, even Perot, using his numerous boards to prove his point, attracted supporters because he was someone who much more connected to people with his “you see this” and “you get that” etc. His boards were understandable to everyone. If I can say this respectfully, Ryan is a little to intellectual, and more than a little to dry with his fiscal arguments. Just the facts. Paul has no ability to connect with the majority of the voters. Ryan is great in the House, doing what he has been doing. He most likely couldn’t connect with anyone other than numbers nerds.

  • littlehouse18

    She really impressed me those last two days on the Hill, as did Steve King.

  • losmacs

    as the Veep to Perry’s president. Cain is a businessman, so has gobs of real-world experience, is unapologetically conservative, Christian, honest(sometimes to his detriment). I don’t see hiis being a southerner as a handicap since FL and TX are 2 states that a republican must win to go to the WH. Of course the 2nd job can be pretty much a political dead end, though not always. Add to this that he would restore some of the lustre to the vice-presidency that it has lost under the incumbant…

  • gekster

    But think right now what the left would start saying about a “token” candidate.
    Remember the Condi Rice parrot.
    Would they do no less.
    I realy do like Herman Cain alot, but not right now for major spotlight.
    And he does bring good points to the debate.

  • Martin Knight

    Really? Are you sure?

  • littlehouse18

    The Dems plan to make Ryan a big issue, I’ll bet the declared candidates are not too happy with Ryan in this regard. They are doing a pretty decent job so far in pushing the jobs/economy theme. The question is, can they hold off the Dem talking points on entitlements now that the genie is out of the bottle. Or, as JS suggests, do we meet them boldly on that front.

    I’m of both minds on this issue and I really don’t know which is the correct path. I’d like to stick to my idealism on the necessity of reform, yet I don’t want the issue to lead to another Obama term.

  • losmacs

    I don’t see Herman Cain as anyone’s token, simply because I think he’s more intellegent and tougher than that. Besides, it COULD be said that the Token is already in the WH, especially since white liberals love to talk about minority politics and minority rights…

  • gekster

    It’s what the left would say.

    (and my friends use a small g, I’m not that big).

  • carolina

    It also occurrs to me that Huntsman might be ‘insurance’ for Romney. If there is no clear winner by the time of the convention, then any Huntsman delegates would be Romney ‘hip pocket’ delegates.
    I’ve often wondered WHY Huntsman ever got into the race in the first place. I now think Huntsman is a contingency delegate gatherer for the establishment (Romney) crowd.
    All of the tea party/conservative candidates will split up the votes for a ‘conservative’. hmmm
    I look forward to discussion of convention delegate strategy when we get closer to that time.

  • carolina

    It also occurrs to me that Huntsman might be ‘insurance’ for Romney. If there is no clear winner by the time of the convention, then any Huntsman delegates would be Romney ‘hip pocket’ delegates.
    I’ve often wondered WHY Huntsman ever got into the race in the first place. I now think Huntsman is a contingency delegate gatherer for the establishment (Romney) crowd.
    All of the tea party/conservative candidates will split up the votes for a ‘conservative’. hmmm
    I look forward to discussion of convention delegate strategy when we get closer to that time.

  • lakeshore

    I’ve always assumed that serious candidates for President use focus groups and polls to determine their chances. Perry must have seen good results vs. Romney. Months ago, did Romney plan on facing Perry as well? I’d be curious to know how Romney planned to debate and advertise against Perry, assuming he knew he’d have to eventually.

  • lakeshore

    What worries me is if either one (or their surrogates) goes negative against the other, what the erosive effect will be by Election Day, and how much of any of their ads or debate points will be used by the Dems against whoever comes out as the nominee.

  • littlehouse18

    between Huntsman and Romney, and that Huntsman thought he could spoil Romney’s bid. Has anyone else ever heard this?

  • jackthorsen

    So, T-Paw, who did ok in OH, jumps out and Perry jumps in. It was such a simultaneous event that I wondered at the time if there was a connection. Could it be that Pawlenty was a place-holder for Perry, whose job it was to sequester a support organization that Perry could just walk into? Think about that one!

  • traversecityconservative

    All a candidate really needs is money and time to ride out the wave. The Dems (and Rinos) will try to destroy them all. Wait long enough and every one of them will fall. Just need to stick around long enough and take advantage of the situations that present themselves. This is a game. Who’s smart enough to figure that out? Last man (or woman) standing. None of them are doing what really needs to be done – come into the thing with a VP, Treasury Secretary and Secretary of State already chosen – and a plan to turn our country around. As my hubby says, one of them needs to act like they’ve already one and lead the country NOW.

  • JSobieski

    if not a presidential candidate then whom?

    I remember when people on this site were critical of Ryan, DeMint, and Colburn for not coming out in favor of ending SS and Medicare. It would seem that those on our side go from wanting to declare SS unconstitutional to being afraid of mentioning entitlements in a presidential campaign.

    I actually do believe the stuff that I say. This country is on the cusp of changing in some really dramatic and unalterable ways.

    If we are serious, there is no choice but to proceed in 2012 to repeal Obamacare and reform entitlements. If someone doesn’t campaign on it in 2012, the people in office in 2013 will not have the support for doing so.

  • JSobieski

    The Ryan roadmap is to the right of the RSC budget. I guess that makes Ryan less of an establishment Republican than the RSC budget, since the RSC budget actually got a vote and was approved (the Ryan Roadmap was never even called up for a vote).

    My gripe is in using personal identity to determine who or what a person stands for. If the person supporting the candidate matters, then Chris Christie is the most conservative canadidate since Coulter is as conservative as they come. But if you want to evaluate candidates based on who supports whom, by rollling dice, or any other method—I can’t stop you

  • JSobieski

    Apparently Ryan is a bad choice because Rove supports him. So does that mean that Jordan is outweighted by Rove?

    Its not about taking things personally–its about having some fundamental logic.

    I know that Jordan was a big hero a couple of weeks ago. Is Jordan no longer a hero? Or is Jordan’s purity simply outweighed by Rove’s corruption?

    How do you reconcile the establishment support vs. tea party support if a candidate has some support from both?

    Would a candidate be stronger to have LESS support? Would Ryan be a better candidate if only Jordan asked him to run? If the answer is yes, isn’t that a crazy answer?

    The underlying “logic” of being against a Ryan campaign because Jeb Bush or Carl Rove supports it is just place lunacy.

    If Karl Rove is so hated that we automatically discard anyone he might say somethign positive about, why even bother having Redstate? We can just look up what karl Rove says and do the opposite!

  • JSobieski

    the R’s wont say on the campaign trail. Which means the D’s will use it to define us, and we won’t defend ourselves. Oh well, at least Karl Rove won’t get his guy in there. LOL

  • JSobieski

    He actually comes across quite well, particularly with independents. He comes across as the right kind of nerd, not too far off but clearly knowledgeable.

    If what you are saying is that the public cannot handle a good public debate of this issue, I am thinking that entitlements will not be reformed until we have become Greece and there is violence in the streets.

    I am going to post less on RS, and spend more time in the shooting range.

    I do find it interesting how people can go from “end all entitlements” to “we can’t talk about it effectively”. A couple of weeks ago, we were going to force D Senators to adopt a CA prohibiting tax increases. Today, we can’t encourage a public debate on a topic that is 50% of the budget.

    I do think that having him in the R debates would be helpful, but apparently I am in the minority. I thought the last Fox debate was a substance free as they come. I shudder to think what is coming down the pike.

  • californiagold

    GW Bush was no conservative.

    Bush gave the country another huge entitlement program that we can’t afford, while allowing a housing bubble that nearly ended in a depression.

    Bush also started a war in Iraq that we eventually learned was based on faulty intelligence. Nor did Bush catch OBL….

    And let’s not forget the Harriet Miers fiasco…

    The Bush era – which included a republican congress- could have done great things to reduce the size of government and redefine conservatism in a positive manner. Unfortunately, the mission was not accomplished. Let’s hope republicans don’t make the same mistake in 2012 by electing another establishment guy like Romney.

  • californiagold

    Typo…..obviously, Christie is pro-life and has done some good things regarding that issue. What I meant to say was that he is pro-amnesty. (Or at least pro-path to citizenship for illegals)

  • perry4prez

    I agree that Mormons are polite and believe in family. But the same could be said of some atheists. Mormons also believe in some wacky doctrines that read like a bad science fiction movie. This is like Scientology.

    Spirituality is important for our leaders because it makes them realize they have a MORAL obligation to support the Constitution, which I believe was divinely inspired. Violating the constitution is not only a political matter for a spiritual man, but also a moral one. You cannot have Liberty without faith. A man who is spiritually weak cannot make a good president. Need I remind you of President Clinton, the philanderer-in-chief? What about the Breck Girl?

    I agree with you that O’Romneycare is also disqualifying.

  • gekster

    Bush warned about the housing bubble, as did others Repub,
    but the Dems said everything was ok.
    If you care to reaserch it, it was caused by the Dems, and timed to happen in 2008 to stop any Repub from getting elected President.
    I paid attention, I saw it.
    One of my first RS postings was about that fact.

    As far as faulty inteligence, you never know it till after the fact.
    You do something and find out later you were misinformed.

    Harriot Myers was a set-up for the next nominee who got confirmed.
    They wern’t going to approve his first pick even if it was Earl Warren.

    The Republican congress is more at fault then Bush ever was at spending.
    Congress spends the money, President sighns the check
    He needed funding for the wars, and the Dems said if you want the Money, give us what we want.
    Bush knew that the wars were important enough to give the Dems what they wanted on spending.
    The Problem was that the Repubs saw the Dems get what they wanted, and then wanted thier fair share.
    Bush, needing to prosecute the two “nescesary wars” then gave the Repubs what they wanted also.
    Rock and hard place thing.

    And the NCLB act was Ted Kennedys’ baby.
    Bush added, at the resistance of Teddy, the acomplishment goals, which by the way, Obama has given waivers for.
    And after Bush gave Teddy what he wanted in the bill, Teddy came out and said it wasn’t enough, it needed more money.
    Bush said no.

    I see no excuse for the drug thing.

    And one more thing.
    GET OVER IT, BUSH AIN’T RUNNUNG.
    And there is NO candidate out there that even resembles Bush.
    Let the guy retire in peace.
    Is that to much to ask from you libs.

  • perry4prez

    Yep, the crowd that likes Ron Paul on Facebook is the same crowd that thinks it’s hip to wear Che Guevara T-shirts. Ron Paul is an idiot. It is not only his nutty views on Iran, but what about things like drug legalization and gays? These are libertarian views not Conservative ones. As I have said elsewhere our candidate needs to be BOTH a Constitutionalist and a Conservative.

  • californiagold

    Whether you want to believe it or not, Bush signed into law one of the largest entitlement programs ever by a republican. Also, Bush and the republican congress could have passed legislation that tightened lending standards long before 2008. It didn’t take a scholar to figure out that a bubble was expanding due to the easy money loans written to anyone who could breath.

    And I agree with you, Bush isn’t running, so it’s time for people like Rove to get over the fact that Perry was stating the obvious.

  • perry4prez

    No, but I thought Ford did?

  • gekster

    Bush sounded the alarms in 2005. So did McCain.
    The Dems took control of the House in 2006, and ignored it and never did anything about it.
    It was like they wanted it to happen.
    And I said there is no excuse for the prescription drug thing.

  • izoneguy

    I am about 1/3 of the way through this book.
    A real eye opener.
    The dems get about 90% of the blame here.’Bush gets 10%
    for not stopping it.
    If he would have been more agressive when he took office
    and stopped Fannie Mae, we would not be in
    as big a mess as we are. 9-11 took the focus off
    and the dems used that to their advantage.

    Reckless Endangerment: How Outsized Ambition, Greed, and Corruption Led to Economic Armageddon

    Update on NLRB – Boeing case

    Oversight Committee responds to NLRB?s refusal to comply with subpoena

    The National Labor Relations Board?s refusal to comply with a congressional subpoena could lead to the disbarment of the NLRB attorneys working on the case against the Boeing Co., House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa wrote in a letter to the labor agency.

    ?I trust you stand ready to accept the severe consequences of your decision to avoid compliance with the subpoena,? Issa, R-Calif., wrote.

    Issa and NLRB have been haggling over the committee?s requests for documentation in the board?s case against the Boeing Co. over its final assembly and delivery plant in North Charleston. The NLRB issued the complaint against Boeing in April, accusing the aerospace giant of opening the S.C. plant to retaliate for worker strikes at its Puget Sound plant in Everett, Wash.

    Acting general counsel Lafe Solomon has argued that releasing the requested documents could affect the ongoing hearings in Seattle. He?s also cited attorney-client privilege and a ruling by an NLRB administrative court judge to deny the release of similar documents to Boeing earlier in the case.

    Issa wrote that privileged matters disclosed to a congressional committee are not assumed to be public and that if they are public, the disclosure might not affect the outcome of the case. He also said attorney-client privilege does not apply to Congress, citing a federal court ruling.

    Issa also calls the argument based on the judge?s ruling ?absurd.?

  • losmacs

    I try to give most folks the benefit of the doubt, though not so much with American liberals, or socialists,whatever they like to call themselves these days.

  • gekster

    I doubt if he will see it.
    One track mind and all.

  • septembergurl

    Erick talks about the paths that various candidates have and don’t have to the nomination. For example: does any candidate have the quick & dirty path that John Kerry had in 2004 — win Iowa, win neighboring New Hampshire, and wrap it up?

    Yes. Mitt Romney has a big lead in New Hampshire, and if he could have nailed down Iowa, this would have been a short race. But given his loss in 2008, and the entry of Pawlenty,Bachmann, Paul, etc, he decided to minimize his presence in Iowa. Even if he ramped up his presence there, could he win? Doubtful. Conversely, Perry, Bachmann and Paul — who could win Iowa — are not going to win New Hampshire.

    OK. How about the GWB path in 2000? Win Iowa, lose NH and recover in SC. That’s certainly possible for Bachmann — who has to be seen as frontrunner in Iowa — and why she has been campaigning this week in South Carolina. More likely is Perry winning Iowa — as the Southern evangelical candidate — losing New Hampshire and then winning SC. SC is good for Perry — lots of retired military, fiscal conservatives, soCons. Iowa, though, is a problem. How much does he want to invest there in time,money etc? This is the problem with a late entry. If he makes a major effort, he will draw Romney in, and Romney has much more in the way of resources to spend. If he doesn’t make a big effort he is ceding the state to Bachmann or Paul.

    The More likely outcome though is that Bachmann wins Iowa, and then Romney runs poorly in NH and loses SC to Perry. We then look at Florida,Nevada and Michigan. Nevada and Mich are good states for Romney, theoretically. He leads in both,but Perry intends to compete in Nevada, and McCotter intends to take Romney down in Mich because of his (Romney’s) opposition to the auto bailout.

    Florida is trying to muscle up as an early contest, they hold a combination debate/straw poll at the end of September. Romney and Bachmann have both blown it off, so the participants are Huntsman, Cain and Gingrich.

    Damn. Huntsman could win this thing! So far he’s only won the Esquire primary, where magazine writers swoon over his checked shirts and denim jacket. (see Vogue: Slate writer/Annie Liebovitz photo spread that screams It’s like he’s not a Republican!) He can lose everything up to Florida but he has to win Florida. Would be good to put up some numbers in NH and SC too, they are open primaries so Democraps and Independents can vote.

    Right now we’re in a phase till the Iowa vote which Jay Cost has a piece on where he talks about the secret or silent primary, where the GOP leaders pick the candidate. They’re in a panic because they hate the candidates we have, hence Ryan/Christie. Neither one of them is going to run, for reasons covered by Erick. Christie would be an OK VP for someone like Perry, if he wanted an East Coast RINO in the Giuliani mold.

    Erick references the Sean Trende piece on RCP,which is really good and which looks at the rules and the schedule leading up to the convention. His point is that overall these favor the moderate candidate over the conservative.

    So, yeah, I still see it as Perry v Huntsman, as I have for months.

    And — Rick Santorum, thanks for playing!

  • californiagold

    The real estate bubble was rooted at the end of the Clinton years when the banks were deregulated. The republican congress pushed for the repeal of Glass Steagall, and Clinton signed it. Some smart people raised concerns at that time…..by 2003-2004 the housing market was taking off in many parts of the country. The federal reserve had the authority to tighten lending standards, but didn’t. Bush and the republican congress had the authority to tighten lending standards, but didn’t. By 2006 the bubble got so large it was about to burst, and by the end of 2007 it did.

    Both the republicans and the democrats have their share of the blame, but the reality is, neither party took the necessary steps to stop the housing bubble from getting out of control. In fact, both parties, along with the federal reserve, pushed policies that caused the bubble to grow.

  • http://xmmlbchat.blogspot.com katesmith

    I thought we were supposed to avoid getting people mad at us so they wouldn’t kill dozens of our Navy Seals and today reportedly numerous people in Israel. It’s great now because we’re spending $9million a day bombing Libya, millions more a day bombing Somalia, Pakistan, Yemen and more on the way. Just because Bush said for awhile he wanted to kill bin Laden doesn’t mean it was ever a good idea or that maybe he lost interest in doing so. He was able to get re-elected without it and the gallons of innocent blood now on the hands of Obama with more to come. Killing bin Laden then bragging about it has made things much worse. Can you imagine how many Bush in effigy blazes would be going on right now if he had done it? As I said, I never thought it was helpful to announce to the world that’s what you wanted to do, and as it stands now, people are dying left and right and Obama couldn’t care less.

  • snowshooze

    And…do you remember?
    This was business. It had to be done.
    Obama had absolutely nothing to do with it.
    We had to drag him off the golf course ( Literally)
    And dress him up ( Really )
    And TELL him to approve it.
    It was a detail. But it was a point of honor as well.
    Yes, you can call it stupid pride if you wish.
    Guilty.

  • ashland_avenue

    http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/08/how_a_blogger_in_macon_georgia.html

  • travis690

    I would be happy with anyone but Obama for President in 2012.

    On the other hand, I would be happier with the “consultant class” getting their butts handed to them as they go whimpering away after November; they are my top nominee for why the Republican Party always gets into trouble with their nominees.

    The first part of the problem is that they are too honor-bound to the “establishment” of the party. Well, the old guard is getting run out by always wanting to field candidates that qualify more as Democrat lite than Conservative or Tea Party (which I identify as two distinct groups, not one and the same). If you base your stance on being like a Democrat, but only less so, this is bad for the country. And how does it make you attractive as a candidate to the potential crossover voters that are always identified as being Moderates and in the middle of the spectrum? Remember this: Liberalism is a mind-set of wishy-washyness; it is not based upon solid ground. Got that, Rove and Romney?

    Second problem is, the Consultant Class is just another word for Lobbyist once the candidate is elected. Enough said on that point.

    Any questions, professional lobbyists?

  • gunslingr45

    that about David Souter Erick? I spewed my coffee everywhere!

  • arthurmanger17

    There are to many, on both sides of the aisle that are working to establish who the candidates are going to be for 2012. This early in the stage of the campaign, should make anyone suspicious of those promoting that idea. Why such a rush to push out Bachmann, Cain, Gingrich, or Paul. Or anyone else besides whom they are suggesting to jump into the national politics of 2012. We the people at the grass roots level will decide. If some who think they speak for everyone in this movement and the choices they have, will find themselves sadly mistaken.

  • izoneguy

    The guy that the Republicans picked in 2008 was a disaster.
    We cannot repeat that mistake twice in a row.

  • acat

    .. expansion under Clinton at the feet of W .. why?

    I want to know what you’ve been smokin’, broheim.

    Mew

  • gekster

    ………

  • acat

    Tomorrow’s not a do-over, more a do-again …

    Or, if you don’t mind a heaping helping of irony with your corn flakes, how long was Ron Paul whining about “auditing the fed” until he got action?

    Mew

  • jayjayson

    Our dear sweet friend Herman Cain leaves the POTUS race.
    He joins the cabinet of the new president as Treasury Sec.
    Over the next 12 to 18 months, as the economy improves, Sec. Cain uses every opportunity to stand against Saxby “Shameless.”
    So that when the 2014 primaries come around, he jumps in and takes it to Saxby. After a bruising campaign, we see Sen. Cain rise and become a strong force in the Senat

  • msjallen

    Read the book “Kingdom of the Cults” by Walter Martin to learn about Mormonism. It is a real eye opener.

  • msjallen

    …because the old guard Republicans will be able to control him. Watch out for the “good ole’ boys” of the GOP.
    We need someone who will stand on their own two feet instead of being “run/ruined” by the same old RINOs.

  • jayjayson

    Could he be Pres? Sure, a lot better then the current one. But should we gain a good Pres, and lose a whole state? I could see NJ after Christie is finished as at least a true battleground state, if not a new red state. (I also see that happening to WI.) He should stay where he is and work for a stronger state.

  • msjallen

    …needs to buck the power brokers. He reminds me of Reagan. I’ve read a lot of negatives about him but he is still at the top of my list; I like the positive reports better.

  • gekster

    california gold.
    (hint to what is being smoked)

  • msjallen

    …is just plain SCARY!!!

  • evilleramsfan

    This is one topic that seems to be glossed over quite a bit but is one that I think is one of the more important issues in the election. Perry makes both friends and enemies on the left and right by his 10th Amendment views. He mentions that many of our social issues from abortion to gay marriage all should fall under the 10th Amendment. I happen to agree with him in this regard and as a result, it takes many of the social issues where people tend to focus their vote and put it in the state and local arenas. Any thoughts or input?

  • acat

    oh wait….

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    amend the Constitution. Federal judges should never have amended the document re abortion rights.

    See my latest here which also covers this subject in the context of the Iowa debate:

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/08/18/treason-states-rights-and-patriotic-post-office-unity/

  • carolynr

    Perry will appeal to the greater number of people. He’s saying what we have been trying to get across to our representatives in Congress and the President. I am watching the press paint him in a certain way…in fact, the same way I am painted…only I am a racist and terrorist.

    The more Obama talks about the “fat cats”, who are really his friends…the more people see a correlation between Romney and Obama. Romney, the hedge fund manager and Obama the big government spender. BTW…Romney wasn’t too bad with that spending either in MA.

    I agree with your analysis of Bachmann and believe that her platitudes will not see her through the race.

    Perry…well, good old MSM and the GOP faithful are painting the picture of “David and Golleith (sp)” That’s how most of America sees themselves…as David. The Washington Machine is TOO BIG and Romney is part of that machine….money and all. I agree with your assessment of Rove…he is out to destroy Perry…even if we were to get Obama back in…in other words…destroy our Republic.

    People are sick and tired of the Grand Ole Party…look what Mitch McConnell was willing to hand over to Obama on a silver platter…debt ceiling increases WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS. Meanwhile…everyday Americans have stopped spending, stopped vacations, corporations are holding onto their cash and businesses are going out of business or moving out of the country.

    SO WHO IS THE CANDIDATE THAT CREATED JOBS. RICK PERRY. HOW MANY JOBS HAS ROMNEY CREATED AND LOOK AT THE BLUEPRINT HE GAVE OBAMA FOR HEALTHCARE.

    Go Perry

  • silentcal2012

    Polls trickling out since the big rollout.

    Stories of Romney’s demise greatly exagerrated. Key states too:

    New FL –

    http://www.postonpolitics.com/2011/08/aif-poll-shows-obama-in-tight-battle-for-florida-with-gop-helped-by-rubio/

    FL polls comes on the heels of big polls for Romney in CA and NH. He also rolled out some more key FL endorsements today.

    In NH, Romney 36% Perry 18%
    In FL, Romney 27% Perry 16%
    In CA, Romney 22% Perry 15%

  • gekster

    these polls are meaningless.

    If these polls aked which name do you recognise most, well…..
    Romney has more name recognition. Thats all he’s got.

  • Aaron Gardner

    The survey, by McLaughlin & Associates, was conducted Aug. 8-9, with 600 likely general election voters questioned in Florida. It has a margin-of-error of plus-or-minus 4 percent.

    Other oddities include them not linking to the actual poll results or crosstabs.

    Keep up the beclowning, I know I am entertained.

  • gekster

    is a trick the left does quite often.
    If it hurts what he wants to say, he will not post it.

    (but he is entertaining).

  • kestrel

    The most difficult part of the tightrope walk is doing it without sacrificing his integrity. I think he generally succeeds at this, so he is able to explain himself truthfully without alienating serious people on either side (establishment or conservative). This is partly because his expertise has earned him respect — so much so that House leadership is willing to work with him to an unusual degree. Who but Ryan could have personally got a commitment out of Boehner to put someone decent on the committee? Boehner would have told most people where to go, and it wouldn’t have been Martha’s Vineyard.

    Ryan still believes the TARP was necessary (although some of the funds ended up abused), but he draws enough of a hard line on corporate welfare in general that I don’t write him off because of TARP. Some people might, but he’s not your average squish for anyone willing to take a serious look.

  • soljerblue

    It’s the deal-breaker for me, too.

  • kestrel

    “Paul has no ability to connect with the majority of the voters.”

    I disagree. He can speak on a variety of levels, including simplifying complex issues unusually well. Here’s a link to part of a Ryan speech to an Economic Club in May on the pro-growth Path to Prosperity budget.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsSJE6v6Ksk

    The whole speech (even the 24-minute excerpt) is more than he would present to an average audience, but you can excerpt from it any number of concise, easy explanations of various topics that could be presented in two minutes or less in a forum or debate. I recommend:

    16:05 -17:34 — On Medicare driving healthcare’s exploding costs and how to fix it, Obama vs. House budget (1.5 minutes!)

    17:35 – 18:32 — Reforming the corporate tax code to broaden the tax base and reduce the rate (less than one minute)

    18:33 – 19:44 — Reforming the tax code for individuals, why and how

    A longer excerpt is 8:40-14:55 on the four foundations of economic growth. Ryan lists them in 8:40 – 9:48.

  • kestrel

    I agree that he doesn’t have to run in order for entitlements to be addressed, but so far no R presidential candidate has stepped up and addressed them. If the issue is “forced upon us like it or not”, we will be reacting, not leading, and we might just get a bunch of generalizations and dodging anyway.

    To me, a revealing line from Ryan’s radio interview (quoted at the Weekly Standard) is this: “I?m hoping that people will step up and I?m hoping that somebody ? I can help them fashion this.”

    Different people undoubtedly have different reasons for wanting Ryan to run, and even for the timing of pushing him to consider it. While the establishment may be pushing Ryan mainly because they dislike Perry, I am wondering if Ryan himself is worried that a Perry presidency might dodge the entitlements issue completely, thus losing the ripeness of the moment to make the necessary changes. Perry could create a jobs boom by unleashing the private sector, generating so much tax revenue (Reagan-style) that he could get away with kicking the entitlements can further down the road, while the public goes back to sleep again. I think Ryan would move heaven and earth to prevent this, no matter who the potential president might be, and I’m glad.

  • BA Cyclone

    It might look bad in a way to subsequent event schedules, but she is always late for just the reason you cite.

    I’ve been to about 3 events of hers, and if you are willing to hang out she will stay past when the handlers push her to “go” to shake your hand and thank you. I’ve read of several other events that match this story.

    The best part is it’s not some baby-kissing formality with her, she has genuine care in those moments and truly spends the time with each person.

    I am glad Perry also sounds to have a similar tack. We are very fortunate to have two fine conservatives like this in the race.

  • runner12

    Once again, the RSC budget dealt with SS and the Ryan budget did not. It balanced the budget in a shorter period of time. I guess I will have to provide the link so that you can read it for yourself.

    http://www.redstate.com/dhorowitz3/2011/04/07/exclusive-report-rsc-budget-honest-solutions-builds-upon-ryans-blueprint/

    Also, the Ryan budget did pass the House, it was the more conservative RSC plan that did not. See the links below

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/264872/ryans-budget-passes-house-daniel-foster#

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/264852/rsc-budget-almost-passes-house-andrew-stiles

    Please read the facts before getting angry at someone because they do not agree with you. For the last time, Jordan is NOT a DC elitist. I answered your question about him the first time. Please quite trotting it out to beat a dead horse.

  • runner12

    The Ryan roadmap is not what he put forth as a budget. Do you have any linjs that compare and contrast his roadmap with his budget? If there are major differences, why the change?

  • runner12

    the House, the Senate, and the WH whoever is President will be forced to deal with them. They will have Ryan and others screaming in their ears to do so.

    There will be no room for excuses. Ryan is not the only person calling for entitlement reform.

  • carolina

    Interesting. He also refuted any Bush (and himself) animosity towards Perry – talked about how he and Bush Sr and W had all helped Perry in a number of ways in different elections. Rove said that he, himself, recruited Perry to the GOP. Interesting……

  • Scope

    Yes, Rove most definitely backed off his previous negative statements about Perry, It seems that the flurry of news about his unfair/unfounded attacks against Perry was obviously noted by Rove. He still did manage to get in his comments about his role in a long time ago success with Perry. Rove has to have his moment in the sun, day after day. What he doesn’t acknowledge is his role in the back room campaign against Perry. That will not end any time soon. He just dug his boots into the underground. Rove is pathetic in his quest to remain relevant, and the problem is that far too many have come forward to back his campaign against just one candidate. Rove, as much as he wants to still be an important voice in the Republican party, has almost in one shoot, made himself irrelevant, just as it should be.

  • rkcon

    Those who are afraid of running on entitlement reform – in fact, they just don’t want entitlement reform at all but wont’ admit it – are just as evil as Obama and the democrats and should have no place in the conservative movement.

    The “You have to understand that you have to have the WH, and the both houses in order to enact any real change” is exactly the argument used by Bohener et all in the debt ceiling argument.

    What’s your proposal after all? To let America die because you don’t have the courage to stand to voters with what you believe? Let’s be clear: cowards won’t save America. It will take patriots who are willing to advocate unpopular measures.

    I, for one, am not the kind of conservative who’s willing to sacrifice principles to win elections. What’s the point? Being a more active

  • rkcon

    was even worse. At least McCain was always serious about the deficit, pork and earmarks; Bush was an unapparent socialist.

  • rkcon

    It’s so obvious it was produced by some liberal strategist it hurts.

    It’s even more bizarre to picture Rove as a Tea Party opponent considering how he was instrumental in the campaigns of Rubio, Paul, Angle, Buck and so many other Tea Party candidates.

    Lots of those guys will end up supporting whatever candidate Rove and American Crossroads prefer; I think lots of folks over here will go nuts. It will be fun.

  • californiagold

    Greenspan and Bush had the authority to tighten lender guidelines, but they didn’t. Had lender guidelines been tightened, millions of unqualified purchasers of homes wouldn’t have been given loans. As a result, the bubble wouldn’t have gotten so large.

    And just so you know, California has more conservatives than any other state in the Union. The problem is, it also has more left wingers than any other state in the Union.

  • californiagold

    …..I’m way ahead of you. Then let’s talk.

  • JSobieski

    The Republican party (or at least the “establishment”/DC elitists types) didn’t support it. Bachmann was directly questioned about it, and she got weak kneed about entitlement reform.

    Why not google “Ryan road” and actually look at the stuff yourself. Instead of reading what a bunch of people say about it, how about reading the stuff yourself? Keep the DC elitists out of the equation.

    The Ryan Roadmap was considered too radical for the Republicans to get behind. Bachmann herself said that the supported the plan “with an asterick” —-ie. that she didn’t fully support it. Palin came the closest to embracing it—and she didn’t go that far either. For a DC elitist, Ryan apparently has little support from DC politicians. But what the heck, Rove kind of likes him, so Ryan must be an elitist.

    Jordan IS a DC elitist—he agrees with Rove that Ryan should run for President. Using the “logic” of association, Rove, Jordan and Ryan are all DC elitists.

    If you are smart enough to decide who is an elitist and who is not, you should be smart enough to figure out the Ryan Roadmap went nowhere. You should also be smart enough to ask the question: How come nobody else put a plan out there?

  • californiagold

    Politicians pushing for Ryan to run must have motives other than seeing him defeat Obama, because Ryan has ZERO chance of winning.

    Before I explain why he has no chance, I want to say that Ryan is an articulate guy who seems to be sincere.But his political instincts aren’t of presidential material. Nor does he have executive experience. More importantly, the Ryan budget plan was a gift to Nancy Pelosi and the democrats. Polls have consistently shown that the overwhelming majority of Americans oppose Ryan’s version of medicare reform. In fact, if Ryan were the republican nominee, not only would Obama win, but the democrats would have an excellent chance of regaining the house.

  • gregorysstewart

    Rove is relevant. His Crossroads has become a major money machine that every Republican wishes for.

    A big piece of that 2010 miracle was due to Rove.

    Lest we forget, The Democrats held ALL the levers of Government and they were easily outspending the GOP. Rove brought in enough money to make a difference, and spent it well.

    Perry is a smart, disciplined campaigner. Rove is smart enough to see that Perry could be the standard bearer, so they will both find a way to get along. I think with the Crowley segment we are already seeing that.

  • peg_c

    I’m inclined to like Perry though I’m fully aware of all his issues. There’s 2 or 3 I could vote for and not hate myself – he’s one. But if Perry being in the WH would shut out most of the GOP consultants, I’d vote for him just for that. Consultants are a cancer in our body politic. They may be a fact of life but we desperately need to put them in their place – at the back of the bus! (Karl Rove FIRST.) Yep, I’m hardcore TP.

  • rkcon

    Oldest RINO trick in the bag – say conservatives and conservative ideas “have no chance” of winning elections.

    Enough of that crap.

    We need entitlement reform and we need someone to sell it to the public. I see no point in having a republican nominee to run on Obama policies of doing nothing in regards to the upcoming entitlement catastrophe.

  • rkcon

    Do you honestly believe Perry doesn’t have consultants? Who do you think are the top operatives in his campaign? Dem consultants? Well, some of them were, but considering that Perry was himself a Dem consultant in the Reagan years, that’s not so surprising.

    Plus, if you’re a hardcore TP, why the heck you dislike Rove? He was the guy who get most TP senators and reps elected in 2010. Heck, he was a consultant to most TP candidates, like Rubio and Angle.

    It seems you’re suffering from some kind of cognitive dissonance, no?

  • Scope

    what a RINO is, or you are just willing to use the term against anyone you disagree with. I didn’t say I didn’t want entitlement reform. I want entitlement reform when the Republicans can pass the reform measures without having to compromise with the Democrats in order to get it through. The only time that can happen will be with control over both houses, and the WH. Obviously you don’t have much political knowledge in that pushing for hard reforms now can result in another four years of Obama. Have you forgotten that we live in an entitled society, and that Obama made even more feel entitled.

  • Scope

    to introduce yourself to RS. By the way I accept the title RINO, as I am not a Republican, I just vote that way. I am a realistic conservative who isn’t willing to give Obama 4 more years, just so I can say I stood on my principles.

  • rkcon

    You support establishment hacks like George Allen, a guy who voted for the big government agenda while in DC time after time and smear true conservatives.

    You use the “you can’t win if you run as a conservative” line.

    Well, here’s some news for you: Marco Rubio, Ron Johnson, Scott Walker, Pat Toomey, Rand Paul, Mike Lee and many others ran as conservatives and won. To the dismay of guys like you.

    I see you don’t like to be called out, but you’ll have to deal with it from now on. Time for true conservatives to run with liberal CINOs like yourself out of this party.

  • Scope

    You apparently went through your 24 hour wait period with your fingers itchy to type, and are now running around the site calling everyone names, being rude to everyone, and acting just like the rest of the Paulbots. That doesn’t go over really well here.

  • rkcon

    What about Bohener, George Allen, Orris Hatch, Scott Brown or Dick Lugar?

    They need your help pal. You talk just like them – even the arrogance “you don’t have much political knowledge, you don’t know how DC works, only insiders like me know, bla, bla, bla”, so I figure you put your money where your mouth is.

    Here’s some news: I don’t want to know how it works. That kind of talk is what gave us the debt ceiling limit being raised.

    “Oh, you can only achieve things if you control the WH and the Senate, you can’t hold the line without beating Obama too”… excuses, always excuses to not hold the line.

  • Scope

    I didn’t think we were going to allow RS to become trashed by the rude Paulbots.

  • rkcon

    I hate Ron Paul. He didn’t even support the GOP ticket against Obama in 2008 and he’s a friend of muslims and terrorists. Ron Paul isn’t even a republican, as far as I’m concerned. Good try though.

    I’ve only called out RINOs like yourself. Is that being rude? Saying that your claim that conservatives can’t win elections running on conservative ideas like entitlement reform is being rude? Well, in that case I’m proudly rude.

  • Scope

    It is because of people like you that we have Obama.

  • AceInTX

    or do serious damage.

    obviously 24 hours isn’t long enough for some people.

  • rkcon

    I’ve already said I have no use for Paul.

    Who are you to call anyone “rude”? Wow, you must be really something to label anyone who disagrees politically with your soft RINO and establishment enabling ways as “rude”. Get a grip. Man up already.

    Anyway, your tactic of smearing any Tea Party conservative as a “Paulbot” – even those who strongly oppose Ron Paul as myself – is so transparent it becomes pathetic.

  • Scope

    n/t

  • rkcon

    Don’t you support George “I live on a public salary since 1991 and voted for every big government item of the Bush agenda” Allen?

    Didn’t you use that argument to downplay the chances of an entitlement reformer to be elected president?

    It speaks volumes Scope. It speaks volumes you don’t even try to refute the criticism. You know they’re true. As now everybody else knows your true colours.

    You couldn’t stand under scrutiny and like a little child you ran away crying foul. Sad, just sad.

  • rkcon

    of Thompson-McCain-Feingold bill fame in his signature.

    It doesn’t take even 2 minutes to understand that those saying “you can’t win running on a conservative agenda” are fulfledged RINOs.

    I mean, that’s the entire RINO creed concentrated in one phrase, it’s their overriding thesis. I have nothing personally against Scope or anyone else, but anyone who advocates that kind of BS is a RINO. Period.

    And if you guys feel some sort of good ol’boys network pressure will impress me, I just have to laugh. I’ve been working on conservative campaigns for many years. I and the candidates I supported and worked for – the last one was Sharron Angle – have been smeared plenty of times by guys like you as “fringe” and whatever. Yeah, I don’t think I’ll care much about some internet RINOs crying foul.

  • rkcon

    Your pathetic attempts of trying to divert attention by name-calling are way too transparent. Besides, Ron Paul would probably be the only GOP candidate I’d never vote for, which makes them even more pathetic.

    I can give you my real life full name and my cv in politics (assuming you reciprocate) if you want to debate this on some other place too.

    But just stick to the substantive issues. Why can’t conservatives win if they run on a conservative agenda? Why guys like you keep saying that even after 2010? It’s a bunch of BS, you and your pals like George Allen are just terrified of losing your privileges.

  • AceInTX

    This has been so over played it makes me madder than a wet hen.

    I’m sick of every discussion on Romney degenerating to Romney detractors every objection being put down to closet bigotry.

    Jesse Jackson would be so proud of Romney Sycophants….they’ve leaned the demagoguery of victimization from ole Jesse well!!

    I rank Romney one notch above John McCain with Lucifer himself running a not so distant third as potential candidates.

  • AceInTX

    I’m not a Mormon and I have serious doctrinal objections to what the Mormon church teaches but the fact that Romney is a Mormon has ZERO to do with whether he’d make a good President.

    Here I am trying to get Romney sycophants to stop beating up every Romney detractor as anti Mormon bigots and turning Romney into a misunderstood and unfairly maligned martyr and you two step in and throw gas on their fire.

    Way to go

  • rkcon

    Saying that he doesn’t give a darn about Romney being a mormon but that he won’t vote for him anyway is playing the victim card, anti Mormon Bigotry shtick and demagoguery learned from Jesse Jackson?

    Wow, just wow. This guy is unbelievable.

    Anti-Mormonism is flat out bigotry. There’s nothing else to add.

  • Scope

    I don’t think that rkcon is smoking the bong, I think he ate the whole thing.

  • rkcon

    Stop with the lame and childish name-calling and explain why are you opposed to real conservatives running on conservative agendas. And don’t give us more of the “Oh, you can’t win that way” BS. We all have the MSM for that.

  • AceInTX

    Save the RINO term for the RMSP types who deserve the title…just calling everyone you disagree with a RINO shows you to be a know nothing buffoon especially when you don’t know the people you are using the term to describe.

    You’re no better than the filth on the left who have stripped the meaing from the word Racist and Fascist by throwing it around willy nilly against those whom they have the most simple and basic disagreements with.

    Second of all, you’ve made plain here that you have a basic and dangerous problem with reading comprehension because I didn’t see ANYTHING that Scope or anyone else said that would lead one to conclude they think we shouldn’t run…or have a candidate run…on conservative principle. The discussion was whether Ryan would be a good candidate and the motives of Rove, the Bush gang and the “Money” in the establishment who are pushing Ryan to run as a foil for Rick Perry.

    In my opinion, If Ryan takes this bait and gets in…he’ll prove himself too naive to play on the national stage because he’ll be nothing more than a tool used by the establishment to go out and fight the big tough hombre in the room only to be sent back to them whimpering with a bloody nose and a fat lip and nothing to show for his effort. And of course, Rove and his band of fellow travelers will discard his spent and useless carcass having spent his credibility getting his ever living ass kicked to kingdom come.

    it would be a win win for the Bushies and the tax and spend RINOs who lead this party because they’ll get their licks on Perry without having to engage him themselves and dispose of Ryan in one fell swoop.

    You really are a child when it comes to this…aren’t you?

  • AceInTX

    I’d like to once again admonish you to get to know the people you are throwing labels at before you label them.

    If you can’t do that…you’re a fool with nothing more than a big mouth who won’t last long here I suspect.

  • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

    Here is an uncomfortable truth for Palin fans – Bachmann is smarter than Palin. The media was able to ‘Palinize’ Palin because the germ of truth in their characterization of her.

    Bachmann is a lawyer smarter than Palin, and has shown substance, depth, savvy, and sincere conservative convictions that mitigate any media-hyped ‘gaffes’.

    Yes, they will Bork/Newt-er/Palin-ize/Qualye any candidate. But they did it to Reagan too and he … survived.

    Their attempts to trash Perry are backfiring already.

    I agree that Palin has been ‘ruined’ vis a vis general election. With Bachmann, Perry and Romney, we have 3 viable Obama-beating candidates. The strongest of these 3 IMHO is … Perry.

  • AceInTX

    My reply was in agreement with his post…I was adding to what he said…if you’ll look below, I also took on perry4prez and soljerblue for their REAL anti Mormon Bigotry…

    a word of advice friend…get to know us before you attack us…you might find you have some friends among those you are now attacking…

    or be an ass if you wish and you’ll find yourself banned for good…

    Either way it makes little difference to me

  • AceInTX

    PERIOD!

  • AceInTX

    Scope isn’t a Man…she’s a female

    What a douche bag!

    sheesh!!

  • AceInTX

    but they won’t…they’ll get behind Romney they way the did Ford, G.H.W. Bush, Boob Dole, and John Mclame, and they fight to destroy Perry or any other viable conservative they way they did Reagan, and GWB.

    Why is it the Tea Party should knuckle under to the usual suspects who lose time and time again?

  • JSobieski

    Rove and Jeb Bush both donated money to Rubio and other tea party candidates. Does that make the tea party candidates contaminated as DC elitists? Does the fact that Coulter supports Christie make Christie conservative, or render Coulter a squish?

    The idea the people should be classified based on who supports them or who they support is nuts. Jim Jordan wants Ryan to run, but since Ryan is also supported by Jeb Bush and Rove (who both supported Rubio), Ryan becomes the establishment candidate which in turn makes Jim Jordan a supporter of the DC establishment?

    People toss these terms around like the lines of demarcation is a clear us vs. them. The reality is far different.

    This idea that there is some establishment wing of the Republican party that is united against a united tea party wing of the Republican party is simply no true. Most strong candidates (such as Perry) will appeal to both sides.

    Mark Levin was a big time supporter of Romney in 2008. Levin by his own words is a big time conservative. So is Romney only an establishment candidate in 2012 because Levin says so? Or was the conservative version of Romney touted by Levin in 2008 a lie?

    Very few people fall neatly into one category or another. No candidate with broad appeal will fall clearly in one category or another.

    In a health political party, there will always be people disagreeing with others. When we characterize those disputes as being two clear lines of conflict, with a person falling definitely on one side or the other, you are going to get the inane dispute between Leon and Levin about whether Palin is a tea party trouper or acting as an agent of the establishment. Surely that little tiff shows how unproductive the “us vs. them” line of thinking is.

  • rkcon

    Stop accusing me of lying without evidence. I’m a father and a husband, I don’t take that stuff lightly. I don’t know what kind of person you are, but I care about my reputation. Is that clear? I repeat, is that clear? If you want to call me a liar, either produce the evidence or do it in my face. We can meet in person if you so desire, I have no problem with that.

    Scope said that you can’t run on the conservative ideal of entitlement reform, so we should run a liberal appeaser instead. I actually question how much Scope really cares about entitlement reform – in fact, I’m talking to some friends to find out how much of a Bush supporter Scope was in this site – but that’s another issue. Scope’s pro-RINO stance with the lame “conservatives can’t win line” is out there for anyone to see. I can backup my claims. A final reminder: don’t question my word without backing it up.

  • gekster

    You sure post like him.

  • rkcon

    Anyone who seriously claims that GWB was a “conservative” doesn’t know what a conservative is. And I’m the one being accused of being a Rove supporter. By a bunch of Bushies. LOL

  • rkcon

    I’m here to argue issues on substance, Scope could be a transgender or an alien for all I care. Only someone with very serious problems would take the expression “man up” literally.

    My point here is to fight the “conservative entitletement reform platform and candidates can’t win so we must run a RINO/appeaser/Bushie republican” stance she takes. Nothing else.

  • Scope

    but the guy is a loose cannon, and apparently has been all consumed with hatred of any one that doesn’t agree with him. He has been all over this site since last night firing his AK47 at many.

    If he is allowed to continue in posting as he has, then I will have to believe that “Be resoectful, or be banned” no longer applies to any posters at RS.

  • gekster

    you are here to throw bombs around and insult posters.
    Thats what you have been doing since you first posted last night.

  • runner12

    You are not being rational in your discussions and I have looked at the Ryan roadmap. I might also add that is the RSC budget, not the Ryan FY 2012 budget that comes the closest to Ryan’s roadmap.

    So in some sense, we are both correct. The RSC budget was torpedoed by the etablishment ( yes, I know that word gets you all emotional). It was the closest to the Ryan Roadmap. It is odd to me that Ryan did not co-sponsor the RSC amendment to his budget, since Jordan did. But in all fairness, maybe he supported it and did not feel the need to co-sponsor.

    Speaking of reading, did you read the links I sent you? Clearly others have put out plans other than Ryan, albeit the RSC undoubtedly used his roadmap as a springboard.

    I will not stoop to the level of insults that you have thrown at me, all because I dared to critique a Paul Ryan run for Presidency. Usually your posts are more well-reasoned than this, but I guess we all have our off days.

    If you want to continue to insist the Jordan is a DC elitist, feel free to do so. Rove is an elitist based on past behavior, where as Jordan does not show any indication of that tendency. When I spoke of elitists pushing Ryan to run, I was referring to Rove and Kristo. But if you want to continue to willfully misunderstand me to make a point, feel free.

    As to your assertions that associations do not matter, one only has to look at who Obama associated with to realize that this argument is not true most of the time. Obama’s associations were a direct indication of how he would govern. I am in no way comparing Ryan and his endorsements to Obama. I am simply trying to point out the logical fallacy of your position that associations should never matter.

  • rkcon

    For the same reason he supported Romney in 2008 and was a staunch supporter of the Bush administration till the amnesty debacle.

    He’ll always support the guy who delivers the most red meat and is the most safe bet from a crony capitalism perspective.

    All those guys are establishment. Except Cain, I guess. The idea that guys like Perry, who have lived on a public salary for decades and have known the cocktail circuit in DC for years, are some sort of anti-establishment warriors is laughable.

  • gekster

    He doesn’t spend any time in DC, so what is the conection.

  • tracker

    Maybe it’s time to reinstate the Hinz Rule. This guy (rkcon, not you, gekster!) would seem to be a prime candidate.

    Just sayin’….

  • gekster

    .,.,.,.,.,.,.,.

  • rkcon

    I said “guys like Perry”, meaning establishment politicians who have been around for decades. Heck, Perry even switched parties when the fortune of southern democrats started to sink. In any case, he’s been doing the circuit all right since he’s the RGA chairman.

    Yeah, looking at one’s donors list is probably the best metric to assess if one is establishment or not. Perry is the creation of the same clique of crony capitalists that brought us Dubya 8 years ago. Even the donors are the same. I bet T. Boone Pickens would have his natural gas handout paid by taxpayers money if Perry was elected.

  • JSobieski

    Ryan is supported by Rove, so Ryan is a DC elitist.

    Jim Jordan supports Ryan, so Jim Jordan is a DC elitist.

    Runner12 supports Jim Jordan, so Runner12 is DC elitist.

    Or is Rove NOT a DC elitist because Rove also support Rubio? Or does that make Rubio a DC elitist. I still don’t know if a Chris Christie is enough to transform Coulter into a squish or not.

    What is the Runner12 test for decising who is on the team (i.e. NOT a DC elitist) and who is on the team? Where can I read this rules so I know who is right and who is wrong?

    I really want to know. Its important that I know who is the “us” and who is the “them”.

    I have repeatedly asked for someone to provide an actual test of what makes someone a DC elitist vs what makes someone a tea party person.

    So far, I see a lot of people using the term in all sorts of different ways without even trying to define it or to provide criteria that disinguish between the two sides.

    I also pose the question: Don’t we want our candidates to have support amongst BOTH the “establishment” as well as the tea party? Is a candidate stronger for having fewer supporters?

  • rkcon

    One guy was enraged when I set the record straight on Rove’s role on Angle and other Tea Party candidates campaigns (and I think you guys who idolize Rubio et all and hate Rove because you feel he doesn’t like Perry will be sorely disappointed in a few months when it comes to that… just saying, it’s merely a prediction… but politicians tend to be extremely grateful to those who seriously help them); then I dared to call out some other poster

    As I’m the new guy and those posters are popular, I received a bunch of personal attacks and invectives because of that. Perhaps people thought I’d cave in and shut up or something. But I’ve been doing politics since Senator Dominick campaign versus John Carroll, so I guess it’s tough for name-calling and whining to impress me. I’ve been through a lot worse.

  • gekster

    So now you are saying Perry is “not” like those other guys.

  • rkcon

    Don’t know what happened.

    “… I dared to call out some other poster who claimed that we couldn’t nominate a strong conservative who would advocate for conservative entitlement reform and served that congressional leadership line on how reform will never be possible without holding the WH and both chambers and how we’ll need to run moderates to achieve that. I obviously don’t agree with that because I do believe unapologetic conservatives can win, so I expressed my disagreement. That poster and his/her friends were mad and that’s basically all”.

  • rkcon

    He and Romney didn’t spend as much time in DC as other guys? True. Do I care about that? Nope. That’s not what separates folks.

    Senator Coburn is a stand-up conservative and he’s been in DC for awhile – unfortunately he’ll leave soon, as once again he’s stayed loyal to his term-limit pledge. And you have guys like Romney and Perry who are insiders and consummate politicians who have never been in DC.

  • izoneguy

    Let’s not be naive here.

    Some of the best people don’t get elected because they cannot raise money.
    Some of the worst people get elected because they can raise money.

    Yes please go look at everyones donor lists.

    What do you want someone like Perry to do?
    Look to see if someone wanting to support him
    also gave money to Bush? You want Perry to say -
    “Ah, no thanks brother, you supported Bush and
    I cannot take your evil crony capitalist dollars”.

    LOL

  • gekster

    The DC establishment doesn’t like him and have come out with faint critiscism.
    Perry is not thier pick, so who is he inside with.

  • Scope

    You say that Romney is an insider and consummate politician, which seems to be what you are railing against, yet, you said on another post that you may be supporting Romney, who really is the picture of insider and elite. Do you even know what you are talking about?

  • Scope

    supporters are lining up with Perry. That is what you call big money support.

  • lineholder

    gained from experience, but what your responses are currently exhibiting is that you may not understand as much about people. Yes, you are the newbie to RS. You are a newbie at a site that tends to be protective of their own, due to relationships that have been established over time.

    If you wanted to you, you probably could present your arguments in a way that allow you to have an opportunity to earn and gain the respect of long-time posters at RS. OR you can take the attitude of “I’ve had X years experience in politics, these folks don’t know as much about politics as I do, yet here they are attacking me”, etc., etc. In which case what’s most likely to happen is that you’re going to end up alienating yourself in a hurry around here.

    Your choice to make, rkcon.

  • rkcon

    You have to be more precise.

    He’s an insider just like Bush was in ’00. He’s been in politics for most of his active life. He’s the new gold boy of the Texan rent-seeking operation. He’s one of those “conservatives” who can be trusted to spend as a drunken sailor and handout plenty of taxpayer money in subsidies and tax expenditures.

    Heck, you guys play the Rove vs. Perry fight as if it mean anything when they basically rely on the same donor network and many of the same operatives. In fact, I’m pretty sure they’ll make up at some point – just not now because it wouldn’t be convenient to have another Texan governor with Rove as a friend.

  • rkcon

    is his position on the ethanol handouts.

    Even freaking Huntsman agreed they need to be phased out.

    He’s against the subsidies, but he wants to replace them with “tax incentives” like the oil industry has. Obviously, tax incentives are just subsidies – in fact, most of the ethanol subsidies are already given in the form of tax expenditures.

    The true conservative position? Palin or Mitch Daniels have it: just end the subsidies and tax expenditures for oil and ethanol all together. We can’t have the government picking winners.

    So, here’s my question: what are the probabilities of Perry ever defending the conservative position on ethanol and energy subsidies?

    It will never happen. The man isn’t a conservative in his heart and never was (no wonder he was a democrat in the Reagan years). He’s pro-business, not pro-free market. Just like Bush. I had enough of those guys.

  • gekster

    the DC cocktail circut.
    Arn’t those the ones “inside” of DC politics.

    And then you said “And you have guys like Romney and Perry who are insiders” and by implication insider to DC.

  • rkcon

    You mean in the same post I wrote I’m expecting a better alternative to enter the race and that I’d only vote on Romney as the lesser evil? Good try, Mrs. “you can’t win running as a conservative”.

    I guess that’s what one has to expect from RINOs. Misleading claims about one’s words.

  • gekster

    But to answer your gotcha question.

    from:
    http://green.autoblog.com/2011/08/17/could-ethanol-subsidies-affect-rick-perrys-presidential-bid/

    Which brings us to freshly minted presidential candidate Rick Perry. The Texas Governor has a history of favoring ethanol subsidies, as well as other farm subsidies, while serving as the state agriculture commissioner. According to a Statesman article, Perry spoke up in favor of EPA regulations requiring ethanol and praised subsidies, saying that he was “exited” about the potential of corn-based ethanol, adding, “I strongly support its increased use and production in the Lone Star State.”
    (the money quote)
    However, that comment was made over a decade ago and Perry’s position changed after he became governor. In 2007 he tried to get a waiver from the EPA that would have let Texas fuel be formulated without ethanol. He’s spoken out against corn-based ethanol since then, and has favored ethanol made from waste biomass.

    Now care to answer mine?

  • notthenews

    Agree somewhat with your analysis on the candidates, but when the weeding starts with Huntsman, it must include Perry and Romney.

    Yes, I know all the arguments, “this one is the most electable”, “that one is un-electable” and any number of various hypothesis as to why. I am sorry if this ruffles feathers, but, neither Romney nor Perry are suitable as a conservative president. I would rather see Ron Paul elected over either one of these two and I am not a Paul supporter..

  • lineholder

    between you and runner12. I could give you one person’s opinion about “the establishment”. That’s all it would be, okay? You’ve got a lot more knowledge about politics that I do, JSob, and I have no doubts whatsoever that by interjecting my opinion into what has become a rather heated discussion, I’m leaving myself wide open to get gutted through and through. If you’re tempted to do so, please just think it through before actually doing it.

    My own opinion about the “establishment” is that we have some people, whether they are elected officials or party power brokers, on the Repub end of the spectrum who have for all intents and purposes have reconciled themselves to a mentality of maintaining a certain status quo, first and foremost because they see it as being politically advantageous and politically expedient for them to do so. Unfortunately, this status quo has brought us, meaning this nation and its people, greater expansion of government, reckless spending beyond belief, a business environment that over-regulated to so great extent that it stifles our economy, and a dangerous level of debt.

    When I personally use the word “establishment”, it’s in reference to those who display a mentality of just continuing with that status quo. I may understand their political reasons for doing so, but all things considered, it’s a foolish choice to make, given the challenges that our country is facing.

    The mentality of complacency, of just “going with the flow”, is hurting us, JSob. As far as I’m concerned, if we are to have any hope of turning things around in a country, we have to grow beyond and/or break free of that kind of mentality.

    You wanted to know what was meant by “establishment”. I’m just giving you one person’s opinion.

  • notthenews

    Scope, I think you’re way off base there. We all know why we have Obama and I’m sure rkcon isn’t it.

  • notthenews

    I don’t really know rkcon and he may be a raving Progressive claiming to be a Conservative for all I know. Blaming him for Obama is not the way. It’s OUR faults that we have Obama. We fell asleep at the wheel for the last 50 to 100 years and let them do what they want. Now that we are awake, let’s get rid of him.

  • rkcon

    are equally fake is strengthened. Exactly the same MO. I mean, a Texas governor against ethanol subsidies? What’s next, a Massachusetts governor defending some sort of socialized health care?

    Again, talk to me once Perry takes the conservative position on any sort of energy subsidies and tax credits.

    Mind you, this is the same Rick Perry mentioned in the press release titled: ?Perry: Texas Farmers and Ranchers to Share $780 Million in Drought Assistance.?

    What’s your question after all? That post was a follow-up, I answered above.

  • rkcon

    that “insider” to me doesn’t imply being in DC. Romney and Perry – who has been doing the cocktail circuits with the RGA, as I’ve also explained you – are good examples of that.

    You may disagree with my view and hold to you literalistic interpretation (that seems rather silly to me – I guess you always support whoever is running against an incumbent in federal elections?), but don’t accuse me of not answering the questions when I did. Understood?

  • gekster

    You claim he is an insider to the DC cocktail circut and establishment..

  • izoneguy

    That press release was from Tuesday, August 29, 2006 -
    When the “evil” Bush was President…..

    Perry: Texas Farmers and Ranchers to Share in $780 Million in Drought Assistance

    When a USDA request is approved, qualified farm operators in designated counties are eligible for low-interest emergency loans from the USDA?s Farm Service Agency. Producers can borrow up to 100 percent of actual production for physical losses, or a maximum of $500,000. The agency offers additional programs, such as technical assistance, to eligible farmers.

    I don’t think Texas farmers will be seeing any help from Obama.
    This drought we are in now is the worst ever.
    Farmers & Ranchers have lost $5.2 billion.
    That will cost everyone around the world.

  • rkcon

    What I know is that it’s not the politicians jobs to take away taxpayers money to give it to farmers, bankers, unions or whoever.

    But hey, I’m a principled conservative

  • JSobieski

    I am not arguing for complacency. One of the reasons why I like Paul Ryan is that he was pushing entitlement reform before other politicians were willing to even bring up the topic. I admit that my enthusiasm in this discussion was forged on the dismissal of Ryan based on some support by Rove and Jeb Bush.

    Rove and Jeb Bush supported numerous tea party candidates including Rubio. Rubio is hardly status quo, and neither is Ryan.
    In fairness to Rove, if he was truly for the SQ he would have supported Christ and he would be in the tank for Romney (not Ryan).

    Do we have reasons for disliking Rove’s behavior in certain ways? Sure. But that does not mean that anyone with a Rove connection should automatically be characterized as the establishment.

    To call Rove a status quo guy is at best a partially true statement, and that is my point in criticizing the terminology. Rubio and Perry have been soft on immigration. Ryan was soft on TARP.

    Conservatives disagree on all of these issues. To resort to labeling people based on such disagreements is unfortunate.

    My goals are simple: repeal Obamacare and reform entitlements. I actually want to achieve these goals. We should focus on winning the issues, not fighting the establishment. We should evaluate candidates based on their record and what they say, not who supports them.

    Reagan supported Bush in 88. nuff said.

  • gekster

    Loans get paid back.

  • JSobieski

    for ensuring that Obamacare stays in place, tea party candidates get no attention, tax rates go up, and entitlements are never reformed.

    Yes, this is sarcastic, as each of the above propositions is demonstrably false.

    Was Rove a jerk about Christine? Yup. The guy still does more good than harm.

  • rkcon

    Repeating liberal lines’ about the auto bail-out, hein?

    If a business wants a loan, they can go to the bank. They don’t need politicians, do they? Stop using taxpayers money to finance “low interests”. That’s not the proper role of the government as the Founding Fathers envisioned. It’s a bail-out like any other.

    Some folks need to catch up with times. Tea Party conservatism doesn’t mean business as usual.

  • gekster

    Drought relief is one thing, caused by nature.
    Auto bailouts are another, caused by mismanagement.
    And you are still dodging my question on what you said.
    I expect you to ask, “what was he question” again.

    Most llorts do that.

  • lineholder

    of clarification…

    You do see problems in the position Rove takes on various things. The point that is troubling you most is the over-generalized usage of the term “establishment” and the division amongst Republicans that you see it as causing.

    Is that an accurate interpretation of your position?

  • aesthete

    due to the state of the economy, along with everyone else who was working on the same project as me. I got another job eventually, but would it have been alright for me to demand a low-interest loan from taxpayers while I was getting back up on my feet? I didn’t lose my job due to mismanagement; in fact, our project’s good management and organization was one of the things that helped me get a job elsewhere. It’s not incumbent upon you or any other American to be forced to pay the cost for my misfortune, and the same applies to farmers in Texas. I prefer Perry at this stage in the game, but every candidate is going to have weaknesses. This is one of Perry’s weaknesses.

  • AceInTX

    First off, I’m not accusing you of lying and I defy you to show be where I said you were…I’ve questioned your intelligence, common sense and ability to comprehend what others are saying and I think you’ve pretty well proved my point with this bit of idiocy!

    Once again, you don’t know me….you don’t know Scope…you don’t know what we stand for or have a clue to the battles we’ve fought on this site for conservative principle against RINOS and establishmentarians who would water down the movement yet you would call us RINOS knowing NOTHING about us or what you are talking about.

    Then you challenge me and ask to meet me in person? Who in their right mind does that? you don’t know me…you don’t know my background, my history or anything I am capable of and you challenge me out of the blue to do what? Kick my ass? Shoot me? stab me? call me silly names?

    Seriously…you are a child…and a stupid one at that…so I would caution you to cool it before your mouth…or your fingers write a check that your ass can’t cash because you’ve embarked on a dangerous path my friend.

    As for the rest of it…had you kept your argument on whether Scope was right or wrong in what she was saying…or questioned what she said in a well reasoned argument instead of throwing around the RINO term without having a clue about what you were talking…you might well have had me on your side of the argument…but instead you’ve chosen to be-clown yourself and call me outside?

    Begone…child!!

  • lineholder

    about living out of my car for nine months. Everyone and their brother tried to talk me into applying for federal assistance. I’d seen too many people depend on it more than they should, get shackled to it, and then find it next to impossible to get out of the welfare system later.

    But when it comes to believing that government has the responsibility to provide a safety net for our society as a whole, I think most politicians have a certain amount of this mentality. Some of it has to do with being genuinely concerned about people. Some of it is just politics and “bringing home the bacon”.

    I understand why they do it, but there are only so many high-dollar welfare-type programs that we can afford these days.

  • gekster

    Something like farming is very different.
    Farmers do alot for the populace as a whole, as compared to an individual job or company.
    It is not like we don’t have more car companies that can provide people with cars.
    When a whole area of farming goes down, (delta smelt anyone) then the Government should step in so those who provide the food to the masses can come back when things have recovered.
    And I hope you were able to get the UI that the Government gives out
    as a no-pay-back-loan to the recently unemployed.

    (and my friends use a small g ;) )

  • AceInTX

    this is an issue dear to me because it’s the argument I get most from moderate/liberal Republicrats that I just think anyone who disagrees with me is a RINO….

    Rino has a specific and identifiable definition and there are certain people I classify as RINO based on specific and identifiable criterion.

    The along comes this dope throwing the term around and proving the point I’ve spent years here trying to refute.

    AND THEN THE DUMB ASS DECIDES IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO MEET ME SOMEWHERE AND DO WHO KNOWS WHAT HE THINKS HE”LL DO?!!

    Unhinged doesn’t begin to describe this buffoon and why the Moderators have allowed him to survive to this point is beyond me!

  • Scope

    The last post he made was around 1 PM. Either he has been beating his wife and/or kids and has been too busy to post, or he has been shown the door. Maybe mom chased him out of the basement so she could clean it up. I guess we will find out soon enough. Now the site is living through the hel1 of a reincarnated poster who was previously banned. And I used to think RS was too quiet on weekends.

  • acat

    Knock it off.

    Mew

  • AceInTX

    or what?….I don’t understand what you’re driving at here.

    I made a simple statement…that the establishment…the blue bloods….the Harvard a Yale…the Mike Nurphys and the rest of the moderate groupies that insist the Tea Party movement are extremist who must be opposed.

    I don’t know who backed who and don’t much care what I am saying is…there is an element of this party who are statists who don’t want entitlement reform, who don’t want to see the size and scope of government reduced, (Let alone see America’s traditional values defended) and who look at those of us in fly over country as riff raff to be seen and not heard.

    They are the establishment I refer to and yes Rove is a part of that, as is Jim Baker, Brent Scoroft, GHW Bush. and the rest of the ivy league country club set they surround themselves with.

    I believe they would USE Ryan as a foil to destroy a Perry or Bachman or Palin nomination only to toss him on the trash heap when they are done with him. They are all on record backing Romney so why…prey tell…are they encouraging RYAN to get into the race?

    Maybe it’s to dilute the tea party votes further and make the path clearer for Romney “Mister finger in the wind” the RINO?

    This is a game they are playing and if I am convinced that if he plays ball with this bunch they will use him up and put him out with the trash when they are done with him.

    I love the guy and want better than that for him…so don’t misunderstand my motives here…I just think his running would be a bad thing for him…and the movement

  • AceInTX

    HEH!

  • aesthete

    and your point would be valid if a) a certain region (say, Texas) was the only place where farmers could work, or if b) the current government policy did not, in fact, artificially raise the price of agricultural goods. Since both are untrue, there’s really no reason for government to suspend its support of that sector of the economy: food would temporarily rise in price to adjust to the temporary change in supply, yes, but that is true for all goods and services procured through the free market. Farmers go into the profession knowing full well that natural contingencies will have an impact on their livelihoods; it’s no different from other professions in that respect. It is not at all clear to me why the agricultural sector of the economy requires special emphasis: conservatives have rightly pointed out the harms done by government intervention in health and education markets (both also considered by many to somehow be exempt from market processes); for consistency’s sake, they should do the same for agricultural markets, even if that takes some of the gloss off of our Southern and Midwestern candidates.

  • AceInTX

    Or just a HuffPo acolyte here to stir up the evil right wing?

  • AceInTX

    They have been rivals…Perry has all baut told the Bush crowd to take a hike since they put him where he is.

    True they supported him early on or he’d have never been made Lt Gov…but he refused to be the puppet they intended him to be…and there has been a feud between Perry and the Bushes ever since…

    As fir the Donor canard…one of the things that has come to light recently is that the Bushes are trying to deny him access to the money channels they have developed in Texas…

    You really should read more…it would help you a lot.

  • AceInTX

    I don’t know about that

  • Scope

    that Perry really needs the Bush donor money in Texas, or anywhere in order to win? It seems to me that Perry, after all his time in elective office, would have his own donor base. Today I’ve read that Haley Barbour’s supporters are moving over to the Perry camp. From what I understand, Barbour has a long donor list also.

  • AceInTX

    especially after 2004.

    If you knew me or anything about me or anything I’ve ever written, you’d know that’s a point I’ve made repeatedly….

    I suspect Jeb will do the same when he decides to run in 16….or 20

    but why am I wasting my time explaining myself…you aren’t capable of making a constant and coherent argument let alone following along with someone elses…so….

    toodles

  • aesthete

    I don’t like the guy’s Presidency and think he’s easily one of the worst modern Presidents, but you can’t say that he didn’t give us fair warning.

  • AceInTX

    I have little doubt he can overcome the lack of Bush money…but that doesn’t change the fact that the Bushies are playing keep away worth their loyal donors making the argument that Perry and the Bushes are both insiders on the same side of things in Texas is a joke…and a bad one at that

  • AceInTX

    .

  • gekster

    I think would be irrelevent, as it still could be seen as a no-pay-back-loan to people in the same situation.
    As for farmers, if they could pick up thier farm from a drought area, and move it to a non-drought area, then I could see it.
    If an auto worker losses his job because of bankruptcy, then he can go find another auto job.
    I would think the same for a university worker.

    I don’t think a farmer who owns the farm, can just pick up and go buy another one. Maybe someone who packed away the money, but it does seam impracticle.

    And as a like but off aside, I would end all farm subsidies, save the money into a fund, for when and where a drought, or similar act of nature does long term harm to farming.
    It would cost less.

    I guess my reasonong would be is that I really don’t have to drive, or go to school, but as to eating?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I don’t think its accurate to say that he betrayed the GOP or conservatives given his promises.I do think that he took he was wrong to indulge the Dems on domestic policy, to refuse to defend his honor and that of the military when he and they were unpatriotically attacked by Dems as having lied on WMD and in not working to support the GOP.

    But lest we forget, his era was dominated by 911 and that supercedes everything and on that he protected America and will go down in history as great for that.

    Moreover, given that only 22? tea partiers opposed the debt ceiling bill and that few non-Bush Republicans ever tried to seriously reduce the federal government in my lifetime and given that the tipping point was reached incrementally over 60 years, i think its quite unfair to make very stark distinctions among Republicans.

    We are at the tipping point now and the remedy will require better conservatives than even Reagan or the old Newt. Calvin Coolidge anyone?

  • aesthete

    IMO, the aspect of Bush’s two terms that deviated the most from what he promised he would do on the campaign trail was foreign policy — obviously, 9/11 changed a lot of what was intended by the Bush administration on that front, but it was nonetheless a pretty major shift. The rest generally adhered to what Bush’s speeches on Medicare, NCLB, and his headline “compassionate conservatism” speech indicated.

  • AceInTX

    ..

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    still a Democrat that held his nose for several minutes in the voting booth and voted for Gore out of some sort of twisted loyalty to Clinton’s economy. But I was won over by Bush on the issues, especially taxes, and he was also great on taxes and judges. I have since come to see the conservative movement in more detail of course.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    meet the Lord in peace now! Seriously Ace’ I respect your exacting standards. I am a tough love Deep South version of you, but not quite Texas-sized! God bless you brother.

  • aesthete

    Still not sure if either vote was a well-cast one, but I wasn’t gonna vote for Kerry or the crazies running under third-party banners. I’ll admit to having thought about voting for Gore/not voting, but Democrat awfulness won me over. Whatever happens in 2012, if the Republican President we get elected reforms entitlements and repeals Obamacare, I’ll consider him to have been a success. (It’d be nice if he could get a couple of Clarence Thomas clones on the bench as well, of course.)

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I think divided govt was better than what Bush41 or Dole would have done, so my satisfaction with the Clinton votes is about the poor choices and not Bill. But clearly Gore was a fool that would have been a disaster, especially after 911.

  • Doc Holliday

    party or no party, anyone should have seen that.

  • neukm

    disaster assistance, but I would hope that people understand the unique nature of agriculture production… We are always one growing season away from “feast or famine”, completely dependent upon weather. Production output cannot be controlled as it can in manufacturing or mining sectors, simply because a crop is planted months in advance of harvest, and no one knows the ensuing weather. Yes, acreage of individual crops can be adjusted, but growing season weather conditions can make this adjustment an entirely moot point.

  • aesthete

    but this is true for a number of career paths, no?

  • neukm

    but, yes there is risk in every sector of an economy’s production. However, I would argue agriculture is unique in that the risk is much more difficult to mitigate due to weather and time factors beyond any human’s ability to control or predict. Should production plans be based on worst case scenario?… best case scenario? Who retains ownership of the surplus? (remember these items are perishable) Or in the worst case scenario, (demand is somewhat inelastic) who does without?