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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

The Headline Goes Here

No, that title is not a placeholder or an error. “What’s your headline,” so many people came up to me and asked last night after the CNN Tea Party Debate.

There are so many headlines about the debate. You all, I’m sure, want the quick and dirty scoop.

The short answer is Rick Perry won, but only by default. He had a stellar one hour and fifteen minutes until the full on conservative assault against his HPV decision and immigration decision began. Everyone took bites out of him, Huntsman choked on his bite, but Perry won because no one else did. This is the first debate this election cycle where Mitt Romney did not win.

But Perry’s win was a win by default in the end because he has a potentially fatal problem. I’m not sure if it is the candidate or the staff. But I could have told you a month ago Perry was going to get attacked on the HPV issue and the immigration issue and he flubbed both responses. When the crowd went from cheering Perry to booing him, he lost his calm, even paced conversational tone. He stammered, talked fast, and had a funny disposition on his face.

He locked in his lead, I think. Neither the HPV or immigration issue are fatal when Mitt Romney is up there sounding like a Democrat in a tea party debate. Romney really hurt himself badly with those answers on social security, etc.

The other headline is Michele Bachmann, who largely sat out the first hour attacking Perry, went after Perry with reckless, wonderful, passionate relish during the second half of the debate. She played outraged mom and played it well. She proved she still has what it takes. The downside for Bachmann is that she proved it on an issue that is not consequential right now. Perry’s HPV decision may disgust me and many of you — it was a horrible decision — but it’s still an election about jobs, the economy, and who can beat Obama. Right now, 42% of Republicans think that’s Rick Perry, not Mitt Romney and not Michele Bachmann. On top of that, the GOP critics can’t find anyone who was a “victim” of the law because the law was so quickly undone.

That begs another headline: “GOP candidate give Perry more hell for an undone executive order than Romney got for still supporting Romneycare.”

Another headline is somewhat self-serving. I really think this was the best debate of the season. The questions were on topics the GOP will use to pick its nominee. I think it helped to have a CNN “Tea Party” debate because the candidates knew who their audience was supposed to be. It really was a good and informative debate. This too raises another headline: “CNN Debate Highlights Just How Sucky John Harris’s Politico Questions Were Last Week.”

One more headline among the many — “Perry benefits from schedule.” This, ultimately, is why Perry won’t be badly damaged. By the time he started flubbing, many viewers had most likely moved on to the NFL and U.S. Open. He benefited. But his flubs leave open another headline: “The race is still open.” Perry locked in his lead last night. But the lock in is not permanent and Perry left and opening for Romney and Bachmann to be resurgent.

He does, however, go into the third debate the undisputed front runner and will get yet another stab at getting those troublesome issues right — issues that will not hurt him in a general election, but could knock him out of a primary if he doesn’t talk about them in a way that mitigates them.

COMMENTS

  • davesinsanantonio

    ganging up on the frontrunner until he or she falls and then ganging up on the new frontrunner will, most of the time, insure a weak candidate in the general election. The exception is when a strong candidate weathers the storm, such as when Reagan succeeded. I think W was elected because the Dims ran idiot losers. This cycle I hope whoever gets the nomination is strong enough to embarrass Obummer, not get trampled by him. We need a candidate strong enough to have long coattails to also insure lots of down ballot victories in Congress and in statehouses and city halls across the nation.
    So, Erick, maybe you need a direct suggestion to Perry to beef up his campaign staff and to practice, practice, practice for the next debate. Even if he is not the eventual candidate we need him to be as strong as possible so that whoever bests him is also as strong as possible.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …was predominant last night.

    The Bachmann attack on Perry/Merck [reinforced, sadly, by Sarah on Greta's show; watch her intro @ 5:30] was trumped by his deftly claiming he was “offended” that he only received a $5K campaign contribution.

    http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/index.html#/v/1156448276001/palin-vs-obamas-jobs-plan/?playlist_id=86925

    Thus, the two chicks join Cain [who flipped on auditing the Fed], Santorum [who shamelessly attacks Perry on everything, rarely acting as a discerning thinker], Mitt [who channels the D's on SS], the Newt [who always wins debates on points and who has all the correct answers, but who would forthrightly flip on any issue as he did on FNC when discussing Libya seriatim], Huntsman [the DIABLO = "Democrat In All But Label Only"] and Paul [whose foreign policy provoked so many boos that even his loyalists were silenced].

    That Huntsman quote suggesting Perry’s stance on SS was “treasonous” was, perhaps, the most nauseating moment of the evening; Newt’s praise for Churchill @ the end was the best.

    http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/RepublicansDebate-Immigration/2011/09/12/id/410717

  • txchick57

    WHO CARES about that stupid Gardasil thing? It was a bad judgment and quickly reversed – LET’S MOVE ON. What does it have to do with the real issues?

    Bachmann sickens me. What a phony. About as electable as my pet chihuahua. Palin – same.

    Romney – no thanks – I’ll stay home if he is the nominee. I think if Romney is the candiate, you can count on another 4 years of Obozo.

    The rest of them – again, who cares?

    I don’t know. I’ve been here in TX during the entire tenure of Perry’s governorship. We’ve done well here with him in charge. I don’t get the criticisms. Do you want Obama again? Then nominate Romney or some whacko like Bachman.

  • MojoMan

    I am from Texas, where Rick Perry has been the governor for the last 10 years. He is a flawed candidate and not as clearly conservative as many here have been led to believe. He does not have a lock on the Republican nomination by any means, regardless of his current standing in the polls. I will certainly support Perry if he wins the nomination and with more enthusiasm than I supported John McCain in 2008. But I am not ready to turn off my mind and just mindlessly embrace Perry as some sort of new conservative messiah, similar to the way Barack Obama was treated in 2008. That is the wrong way to go here.

    I know there are a lot of conservatives in this country who want to anoint a candidate quickly and then get on the bandwagon and aggressively support that candidate from now to election day and beyond. But let’s not make the same mistake with Perry that the Democrats made with Obama. Perry needs to be properly vetted first. And that process appears to have begun in earnest during the debate last night. As uncomfortable as it might be to watch, this is right and necessary. If he cannot withstand the fire from other Republicans in the primaries, he does not stand a chance against Obama and the DNC in the general election.

    It is not time to go all in with Perry yet, people. Keep your powder dry. He may still turn out to be the Republicans best hope. But if he does not, everyone needs to be ready to be practical about that, and not just break down into an adolescent temper tantrum. There does not appear to be a clear successor to Ronald Reagan in the race this year. So we are just going to have to do the best we can.

  • trutexan

    I’ve seen this man in person many, many times and you could read his face so well and completely recognize that at a couple of times, he was really, really pissed. Agree he needs to practice not to let that emotion show on his face. On the HPV, his Tea Party public will understand that the State is going to pay for it either way and Texas has the highest incidence of teen pregnancy and teen HPV. It’s cheaper to pay for a vaccine than to treat cervical cancer so while the method may have been wrong, the intent was nothing but good for the health of young Texans and the State’s purse. He will weather this if he sticks to message. Bachman’s “Oh yeah, and I feel that way too and I’m offended” mantra was nauseating.

    To Perry’s credit, he showed last night he’s not afraid to give it as good as he gets it. We need a President with some backbone and this man has it. On the in-state tuition issue, he’s absolutely right. Either we get these citizens educated and on the path to citizenship through this program where they can get jobs and begin being productive, OR they stay on the public dole WHICH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FORCES US TO PAY. These candidates who think we can just load up all these folks and put them on a southbound bus and build a fence which fixes the whole isue are as completely out of touch with the problem as Ron Paul is about foreign policy.

    And did Bachman say, “….American countries overseas…”? Or did I not hear her correctly. And will someone please inform Mr. Huntsman there are FOUR border states with Mexico – not three.

    I loved Newt’s response of bringing the bust of Winston Churchill back to the WH as well.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    And Rick has remained steadfast; this reinforces the need for consensus development to mature ASAP…remembering that the true enemy is out-there.

    [(mis)quoting from "Pogo" via Walt Kelly]

  • http://stevemaley.com Steve Maley

    “The Bachmann attack on Perry/Merck … was trumped by his deftly claiming he was ?offended? that he only received a $5K campaign contribution.”

    Is that really what you heard, or did you just come here to grossly mischaracterize what the Governor did say?

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …with the assessment that Rick shouldn’t show emotion.

    Indeed, a great prodrome that a zinger approaches is when he rises on his toes.

    Truth-telling is what will win him the nod…and the presidency.

    I might add that the Tea Party Movement would pull an HRPerot if Mitt were chosen…yielding another four years [and the loss of the SCOTUS, forever] c/o BHO.

  • Michael M

    Rick Perry has won in positively crimson Texas. Rick Santorum won 2 elections as a conservative in a blue state, and probably would have won a third if he wasn’t unlucky enough to be running in 2006. Michele Bachmann won in a deep blue state (in an admittedly Republican district) last cycle after the major Democrat draws barnstormed her district to get rid of her. Mitt Romney won in the bluest state in the country. To say that Rick Perry is the only one electable on a national stage given the others’ electoral history doesn’t really fit.

  • arthurmanger17

    I watched that debate last night and was proud that we have the talent that was allowed to shine last night. Mr. Perry held his own so did Ms. Bachmann. But the debate was much more than that. Their were others that had many points that were worth stating. If this election is going to be only about, who you are rooting for winning and not about ideas, then as a free people, we are done.

  • clarioncaller

    This myth that all illegals are out in the fields harvesting crops doing work Americans won’t do is just that…a myth.We have over 20 million American unemployed…under employed or who just gave up looking for work.E-verify…no citizenship if children of illegals…no sanctuary city’s. ….secure borders..and more We need to help our citizens get the jobs here in America and do what every other country in the world does to people who enter their country illegally.Expel them one way or the other.

  • txchick57

    Try that theory out against Obama and say hello to four more years of Moochelle’s jet setting on your dime.

    I’ll pass, thanks.

  • Tom Anderson

    It was Romney who praised Churchill, not Newt.

  • kervick

    I heard Erick on CNN last night and read the comments this morning. I completely disagree with the political analysis.

    In my opinion Perry was the only clear loser last night. He looked like a doofus up there, struggling to answer and sounding well, frankly dummer than everyone else on stage. He lost on both style and substance.

    I agree with Erick that this was a very good debate and everyone else shined. Romney did not win clearly because this was the first debate where the format and the questioning and the electric audience really seemed to motivate the debaters. They were quite good and had me feeling this thing is still wide open.

    Before the debate I thought this was a three person race – Perry, Romney, and Paul (who has the money and the following to stay in for as long as he wants). The conservative establishment, represented by Erik, talk radio, etc. is going all in for Perry – that is clear. But I believe Romney is carving out just as significant a base of support among independent conservatives who are tired of Texas blowharding and Christian conservatism generally. I thought Romney really nailed Perry on the Texas bombast. Despite what many Republicans are saying, I don’t think Perry plays well outside of the South and the Evangelical Midwest.

  • Tom Anderson

    Romney talked about bringing back the Churchill bust, not Newt.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/09/12/debate.cain.humor/index.html?iref=allsearch

  • jiminga

    it was clear that Wolf Blitzer gave Huntsman a lot more attention and questions, trying to boost his appeal. Unfortunately for Jon boy, it had the opposite effect and the liberals will not get their favorite opponent next year.

  • http://www.planettron.com NickDeringer

    Perry’s answer on the immigration questions was a dodge. People are not upset by the “sound of their last names” they are upset by the fact that they came into the country illegally, but are getting the same benefits as people who are citizens.

    Romney conveniently forgot that Massachusetts has sanctuary cities where the police aren’t even allowed to ask a person about their immigration status.

    Perry needs to deal with this issue or we will end up with Romney as our nominee.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    he simply articulates some sort of plan to deal with it. He really didn’t have any control over immigration as a governor but he could have spoke out about it a bit more.

    He did put national gaurdsmen on the border.

  • nunleigh

    is an understatement, How could Perry have been so reckless in his responses to these attacks? I was cheering at his attitude and confident responses during the first half, and horrified at his inept responses to the HPV attacks. He should have admitted it was a mistake, which he did, and then shown his delight that our system of government was able to strike it down. No excuses, just stick with admitting it was a mistake. I am heartened, Erick, by your point that many had probably quit watching. We will see if he maintains the lead, and how he answers the attacks in future debates. Bachmann was on with Greta Van Sustern and continued the attack about Perry’s connections to the phamaceutical company and donors who benefited for his EO. It is a heavy charge, but not one I think Obama could continue in a general election after his excessive and obvious cronyn capitalism. On the border fence, I have it from an agent on the front lines that the existing fences are constantly being breached by cutting torches and are expensive high maintenance. If they are built it is unrealistic to think you would not have to have enough agents to visually cover and address ongoing breaches. Why do both? And, what a great way to employ returning service members in the Border Patrol.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    no matter how much you want it to happen.

    Simply not going to happen. I would be satisfied with some real attempts to stop companies from hiring illegals and better border enforcement.

    That is about the best we could hope for. We live in the real world where 40+ million hispanics have a great deal of political power.

  • mosander

    Stage presence is nice but we just saw what 4 years of slick stage presence got us. Why elect someone who supports the New World Order, NAFTA – super highway and all? What are you all thinking? Not the most polished, but the most honest is Ron Paul. Herman Cain does not do badly either. No one is talking about him. I didn’t want socialist Mitt Romney last time either. Over 300 million people and we can’t do better than this? Put Palin and Allen West together. That would be my dream ticket. Both smart, humble patriots with a track record of doing the RIGHT thing rather than the expedient thing.

  • mikeymike143

    for his left wing anti semitic foreign policy. paul is jimmy carter 2.0

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    I keep hearing about them but I never got to build my own Burger!

    Did you know that the Trilateral Commision was now selling Flood insurance?

    I once ordered a diamond ring from New World Orders, my wife loved it.

    I thought we had got rid of the John Birchers a long time ago? Or are you a LaRouchie ?

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    motivated quite a lot by hatred. It is unbecoming.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    Seriously, why do we not have this as a restaurant chain?

    Anyway: ciao.

  • rememberthealamo

    If Michelle Bachmann is really a great, take charge leader then why isn’t she in House leadership? Do we really believe all her fellow Congressmen can’t see her brilliance? Or do they see a different Bachmann in the day to day workload? Why is her workload in regard to sponsoring/proposing bills so light weight?

    She may make good sound bites but can she be an effective leader? She’ll need more than the “outraged mother” routine to deal with world leaders. Since she has zip-zero-nada experience with the military ( granted, few do of either sex), then who will she go to as an advisor in this area?

    Lastly, her outrage over the HPV vaccine comes across as contrived when it’s well known there was parental opt out. How is this requirement for a specific vaccine any worse than the required vaccine for measles, mumps, etc. that children of both sexes far young than 12 years are “forced” to take?

  • brianm

    Then Romney has in 4 years, and you know what Perry is standing up well. He is not the perfect candidate but there isnt a perfect candidate out there in the race or out of the race. I live in Texas and am proud to have him as our Gov. and the fact that we have done so much better then the rest of the country during this economic downturn speaks volumes about that. The other candidates can gang up on Perry all they want over 10 years he has a record that he isnt running from like Romney is but instead is running on and he has my support.

  • brianm

    I dont even know where to start. You think that Erik is the Republican establisment? You think the establishment has been lining up behing Perry? You clearly dont pay any attention.

  • Ann_W

    if you listened to her context she clearly meant American ‘companies’ overseas. I’m not going to ding someone for mispeaking in a facepaced environment of a debate.

  • Ann_W

    Oops.

  • bobguzzardi

    Rick Perry is vulnerable on this point and it is acceptable to criticize him on this point. He is weak on the border fence and in state tuition. all fair and not one a deal killer. To paraphrase RR, “my 95% friend is not my 5% enemy.”

    Rick Perry has done the country a favor by raising the issue of the government’s legalized Ponzi scheme for the American public. If people are scared, they should be. Rick Perry speaks the truth and it is scary.

    We are headed for war, in my opinion, with Iran and the Islmamists. Israel is preparing for war and it is on the front line of the war with America’s enemies.

    Be afraid!

  • kervick

    The HPV vaccine is given to prevent a sexually transmitted disease. A girl would need to engage in a behavior to get the disease. The best prevention is to avoid the behavior. Measles, etc. one can get merely by showing up at school and being exposed to another. There is an important distinction.

  • nepanyrush

    nt

  • brianm

    Perry does need to articulate his position better. I have done lots of research on it and having lived here in Texas know where he really stands but he needs to articulate it better to the masses out there who arent as familiar with his position on immigration as many of us in Texas are.

    When it comes to securing the border Perry is as tough as it gets. He has begged the federal govt both under Bush and Obama to send more boots on the ground and air assets to the border. Those pleas have been ignored so he has done everything he could do. 400 million dollars in the last budget for the Texas Rangers to help patrol the border, something they shouldnt have to do as it is a federal issue but has been ignored, so he did what he could from the state. He is not against a border fence just against a complete border fence. He is for strategic urban border fences, but rather then spend billions of dollars on a complete border fence he believes as many border state citizens do that boots on the ground and air assets are much more effective. Basically, he is saying lets take the saving from a complete fence and use it to pay for a large human and technological influence on the border instead.

    He sent a bill to ban sanctuary cities but it didnt pass the legislature. That is the key one has to understand, hispanics are very influential in Texas and many of the cut and dry immigration conservatives dont understand the political reality of Texas. There is only so much he could do because of the influence of the hispanics in Texas.

    As for the in state tuition, I have never understood the opposition to this from other conservatives. The bill Perry passed does give the children of illegals in state tuition, but contingent on the fact that they graduated from a Texas school already and are on the path to citizenship through legal means. Isnt this what we want for those who are already here to become contributive members of society rather then a drain on our resources? If they complete college and become citizens then they will be much more likely to contribute to society both economically and through taxes. I agree that on the surface it sounds wrong to reward illegals. But these are the children of illegals who did nothing wrong themselves and are clearly going about things the right way if they are applying for citizenship.

  • mikeymike143

    it looks like your demigod fell apart yesterday while trying to channel his inner jimmy carter

    no wonder 19 out of 20 republican presidential primary voters rejected that nutcase in 2008.

  • jkines

    Bachmann’s rant on the HPV vaccine was as insipid as it was infantile. The CDC estimates that 60% of women will contract HPV in their college years and over 80% of women will contract it in their lifetimes. This is a potential cervical cancer epidemic of historic proportions. The Gardisil vaccine can potentially prevent up to 70% of cervical cancers. Furthermore, men can contract HPV and while penile cancer from HPV is far more rare than cervical, it does exist and men can be carriers. Tirades against Gardisil are every bit as socially irresponsibile as suggesting that children should not be vaccinated against MMR or Pertussis, or spreading the specious vaccination/autism link which has been debunked repeatedly, to the point the progenitor of this lie has since lost his license to practice medicine.

    Romney’s disingeniousness on social security was every bit as abysmal. Nobel laureates Milton Friedman and Paul Samuelson called social security a ponzi scheme decades ago. In fact the only difference between a ponzi scheme and social security, is that a ponzi investment scheme is at least voluntary.

    For their capitulation on issues of substance, Romney and Bachmann have utterly disqualified themselves in my eyes. Should either get the GOP nomination, I will support the libertarian candidate, voting my conscience in lieu of pragmatism..

    Rick Perry is the only candidate with a chance to win that I can honestly support at this point.

  • westcoastpatriette

    a disease that is sexually transmitted–kind of like the state assuming that your preteen and teenage daughter is going to be sexually active. That is very offensive to parents who are teaching their children to remain abstinent until marriage.

  • nepanyrush

    I had been a Romney supporter since the last Presidential election cycle. I still like him and would support him whole-heartedly in the general election. But watching Perry stand up to these withering and sometimes unjust attacks, combined with Romney’s seeming burn-the-earth strategy to get the nomination has moved me now to the Perry side. Romney seizing on social security to attack Perry is one such annoyance.

    Romney really looks and sounds presidential, to be honest, and has a great family, and my own wife and daughters really like him. He would do well against Obama. But Perry standing up to the relentless assault has won my heart. I just do not understand the piling on. Yes, you want to win the election. But do you also want to destroy the eventual nominee if it is not you?

    Bachman had been another big favorite of mine, but now I am completely upset with her. She was unjust and not honest on her HPV attack on Perry, giving the strong impression that it was compulsory without an opt-out and after the debate bringing forth a supposed “victim.” Santorum at least was honest in his attacking, saying he preferred an opt-in to an opt-out and bringing forth the view that vaccines in schools are meant to prevent the spreading of disease, but not sexually transmitted ones. He is consistent in his positions, not just knee-jerk attacking. I don’t think this issue will be important in the general as the left likely supports what Perry had done anyway.

  • BA Cyclone

    for Perry I think is just what you state in your post, and that is articulation of his position. The default position among the conservative crowd, particularly a Tea Party crowd is just as you state: rewarding illegals.

    If his position is deeper than that, he cannot imply that the reason to oppose this policy is because people don’t like the sound of Latino last names. This is not a winning argument in a primary. He needs to be up there attracting people to his way of thinking, not (effectively) calling the people who question that wisdom ethnocentric kooks.

    I think the issue is potentially defensible even in a far-right crowd, but Perry was MUCH too weak in his defense of that position. Erick is right on that — this was completely predictable and Perry and his team truly underestimated the political liability of that position in a primary, I think.

  • BA Cyclone

    for Perry I think is just what you state in your post, and that is articulation of his position. The default position among the conservative crowd, particularly a Tea Party crowd is just as you state: rewarding illegals.

    If his position is deeper than that, he cannot imply that the reason to oppose this policy is because people don’t like the sound of Latino last names. This is not a winning argument in a primary. He needs to be up there attracting people to his way of thinking, not (effectively) calling the people who question that wisdom ethnocentric kooks.

    I think the issue is potentially defensible even in a far-right crowd, but Perry was MUCH too weak in his defense of that position. Erick is right on that — this was completely predictable and Perry and his team truly underestimated the political liability of that position in a primary, I think.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    How did all those attacks on Obama’s abortion votes and view work out electorally? Oh yeah, he won.

    The whole HPV stunt was embarrassing and Bachmann didn’t look “passionate”. She looked unhinged. Especially when she tried linking it to “drug company donations”. Ha. Did she have dinner with Ron Paul?

    That type of nonsense may perhaps play well with a cross-section of the Tea Party crowd. But in the words of an Independent voting friend she looked a little “kooky”- and I have never really seen Bachmann as that.

    Perry admitted his decision was a mistake. That was refreshing. How many times since the 2008 elections have we heard that? Romney on Romneycare? No, he just keeps flippin and floppin all over the place.

    Headline?

    Perry Admits he is Less than Perfect

    or alternately;

    Romney: Being Number One in Job Creation is So Yesterday.

  • atillathehun

    Once again the Newtster stood apart from the group by means of intellect and a grasp of where the country needs to go. All for naught becuause he will not be the nominee to the detriment of both the party and the country.
    Both “frontrunners” leave a lot to be desired and although both will beat OBama then they will need to govern and the thought of a RINO in the White House is not pleasant

  • poorredman

    Perry is going to polish his answers on HPV and immigration.

    For all those cheerleading the back benchers in the debate on building a fence as your answer to immigration, please answer these two questions:

    1) How do you plan to pay for it?

    2) Please defend your required use of Eminent Domain to get it done?

  • steveinfl

    And, let me guess…you have a subscription to Prison Planet, and believe everything Alex Jones tells you, right?

  • jkines

    According to the CDC 60% of women contract HPV in college and over 80% during their lifetime. Statistics for men are just recently being compiled due to the realization HPV also causes penile cancer in men. Gardisil can prevent up to 70% of cervical and penile cancer. Thus unless your child is planning a lifelong vow of celibacy, he or she should get this vaccination. To not do so is every bit as irresponsbile as failure to vaccinate against MMR or Pertussis.

  • Bill S

    The best way to fix this is enforcement at the hiring end. Make it REALLY unattractive for employers to hire illegals and the problem disappears. That would be far more effective than walls, National Guard, etc.

  • Bill S

    And that’s about the extent of it.

  • Michael M

    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella are transmitted by air. Therefore, the act of breathing can give you the disease. This is a genuine public health problem, and there is a potential free-rider problem because — from my point of view — the ideal solution is for everyone BUT me to get vaccinated. This is one of the very few examples where it makes sense for state governments step in to fix market imperfections.

    HPV is entirely, 100% preventable. This is a parent’s choice. 60% of women will contract HPV? Strikes me that there is an underlying societal problem there that might need to get solved and not inoculated away.

  • brianm

    You are right he didnt articulate what he needed to well enough. I heard him start to hit aspects of it but he didnt organize the thought well enough to explain what he was trying to say. Hopefully, he will be able to do it better in the future, I think he may have been a bit rattled by being booed and he lost his train of thought. It happens but he needs to be better in the next debate no doubt on that issue I agree.

  • smitch61

    I would use the word vetting, which means it is in the process of occurring. Vetted would mean the process was complete. With many ties to TX, I am very inclined to agree with the first poster. The process will play out, it won’t be pretty. The whole juvenile prison thing has yet to come out. How lucky Obama was to manage to duck this all important vetting process.

  • brianm

    It really is interesting when you take a step back and think about how all the candidates treated each other with kid gloves in the first several debates including Romney. Then Perry gets in and suddenly it is a complete bash Perry debate from all sides. I am fine with disagreeing with him and taking him on, thats what the debates are for, I just dont understand why this didnt take place among the candidates when Romney was the front runner.

    I too like Romney ok but to be honest he just comes across to me as the Republican John Kerry who will say whatever is politically expedient at the time and that really bothers me.

    I really like Bachman before last night she was my number 2 choice…now I will no way be supporting her under any circumstances. To make the accusations she made last night was simply wrong and unbecoming.

  • brianm

    I am cracking up because after the debate I called my Grandmother and the first thing she said to me was that Bachman looked unhinged and crazy during the debate. Funny that apparently that view was shared by more then just my lovely Grandma.

  • brianm

    nm

  • jkines

    It is preventable only by lifelong celibacy. Furthermore, given that transmission vulnerability is sustained throughout the lifespan, HPV is arguably an even more pressing concern than the aforementioned. The alternative is a cervical and penile cancer epidemic of historic proportions, which is precisely where we are headed thanks, in no small part, to anti-vaccination hysteria.

  • Scope

    There were in fact several boos last night for many of the candidates, but, the particular boo was the loudest and strongest, and yes it did drown out all the wild Paul applause from his fans in the audience.

    When the debate was over, I thought of Paul first. My thought was that he just may finally have done himself in. He seemed especially loony last night. From the get go, he got his military industrial complex comments thrown in almost every one of his answers, not even involving national security or foreign policy. He also kept jabbing at Perry with his comments also. I remember the one incident when he came out from behind his podium, and looked especially wild eyed and fanatical.

    I was reading the live blogging going on on another website, and the when Paul got booed, the blogger said thank God someone finally booed this hateful and disgusting creature.

  • jout99

    Newt’s answers and ideas are far above everybody else’s. He may have some flaws, but they all do.

    Have watched Newt on Fox, read some of his books, and followed his websites. He has been preparing for this for quite a while.

  • Michael M

    blaming the AIDS epidemic on not enough condoms being handed out in high schools. Further, you miss the impact of behavior here: if college weren’t turning into an orgy with annoying breaks to study the influence of left-handed Irishmen on Chinese history, that infection rate would drop like a rock.

    And even then it misses the point: if someone wants the inoculation, they get it. Otherwise, they don’t. If they don’t get the inoculation and die of cancer: well, that’s a lesson for the next generation.

  • lizabtha

    If they are trying to teach their daughters to be abstinent, they may do well to remove them from the gov’t schools, which are hardly conducive to chaste behaviour. Problem solved. No state-mandated shot necessary. ;)

  • smitch61

    It depends who votes, the last one gave us McCain. He had better do a better job if he wants to connect with the people better.

    We follow politics, so we know these people. Quite a few Americans sway GOP but have no idea why. Perry has plenty of time to step it up, but the country does not know him, he has to reach those people. I frankly am appalled in my everyday life to hear the number of people who do not follow politics.

  • Scope

    It is one thing to argue that mandating the vaccine was wrong, but, to bring up the donation thing by Bachmann, which Perry, and all of us who have been doing the research, could not fault Perry as having been “bought off” for a measley $5,000 donation from Merck. Perry was correct to say that he was offended by Bachmann’s accusation. She was clearly trying to make him appear as though he was corrupt and could be bought. That was wrong, more than not believe she made herself look petty and desperate, and she sure was shrill with her accusations. The Guardasil issue wasn’t the only time she became an attack dog, and that is not going to go over well with those that hate those kinds of sleazy politics. She lost the respect of many with her desperate looking methods.

  • jkines

    With the proliferation of HPV it doesn’t take an orgy, all it takes is a single act of intercourse. Not getting this vaccination is effectively putting yourself as well as every partner in your entire lifetime at risk. If someone doesn’t want this vaccination despite this, they can opt out. However the very real risks of cervical and penile cancer gives Gardisil every bit as much merit as MMR or Pertussis.
    It’s not just that they might get cancer for their own obstinancy but the fact they are putting every partner in their lifetime at risk for the same.

  • radicalrighty

    at the time she was sticking the taxpayers with her jet rides and $100K alcohol tabs. Love to see him as somebody’s chief-of-staff.

  • SoFiMil

    The MSM will still try to paint him as an extremist, but rightly or wrongly, Perry’s fairly moderate on this issue.

  • kchenault

    Let me start by saying, I did not watch the debate. I have only heard or read about the last two debates. It seems to me based on the information that I have, that the field of nominees is circling the wagon around Mitt Romney. For all intents and purposes, the party seems to have called all debts due and they have chosen Mitt, because it is his turn. Didn’t they try this last time and we got McCain out of the deal? Maybe I’m wrong, but we don’t want or need Mitt to be the nominee unless we want to lose.
    I started thinking this way when I read that the former candidate, who was supposed to be so conservative, has now endorsed, that’s right, endorsed, Mitt Romney. Tim Pawlenty, whose lack of a personality on stage, kept himself from doing better, has now endorsed, arguably, the most left leaning candidate of the group. Am I off base here? Time will tell I guess.

  • westcoastpatriette

    the CDC all you want but–having worked in the medical field for twelve years, I will remain skeptical of the same and fully aware that the bottom line in determining what is or is not medically necessary as decreed by the pharmaceutical industry is profit margins.

    So, tone it down with insulting people who do not worship the CDC as you evidently do.

  • jkines

    You do realize that a person could in fact be abstinent until marriage and still contract the disease, depending on the history of their partner, All it takes is one time, and given the proliferation of HPV it is more likely than not that that one time will be more than enough. I’d rather our children not play russian roulette with cervical and penile cancer, 70% of which is entirely preventable by the 3 stage Gardisil vaccination.

  • http://www.planettron.com NickDeringer

    Erick is right. Perry needs to hammer away at Obama’s record on job destruction and the “managed decline” of the US. He needs to deal with the immigration issue so that it doesn’t overshadow his other qualifications.

    Did I mention that this election will be about jobs?

  • Michael M

    has no say in this? He’s just merrily walking down the street to church, giving some money to the poor when all of a sudden WHAM he’s having intercourse with a sorority girl screaming, “PLEASE! NO! You’ll give me HPV!” Okay, I can see how that would be a problem.

  • tlhanger

    After listening and mulling these good men over, I have come to the point that only Herman Cain can do the job correctly. He makes points that only a business man can make, and we need a business man. I always try and think how the left will view election. Herman can win this if we all get behind him. Mitt and Rick will get chewed up and spit out.

  • Scope

    I would like to ask you when Palin is going to go through a proper vetting of her record, and all the things that have not come out about some of her less than conservative positions? Thankfully it probably won’t be necessary, as she will not be running in 2012.

  • tlhanger

    As Bachman was my second choice.

  • jkines

    a simple statement of fact that given HPV proliferation in this country, and the fact that 70% of Cervical and Penile cancers are preventable by Gardisil, failure to get this vaccine is irresponsible. I’ve worked in the medical field for 19 years myself, which is one of the reasons I so strongly support vaccination. The anti-vaccination conspiracy theorists are pseudoscience at its worst.

  • ascrowe

    had the opportunity to take Romney out on the fact that MA has a mandate for its healthcare, and if it violates the US constitution, a state will have no right to impose it on citizens, it isn’t a states rights issue.

    Bachmann picked that up, but few seemed to hear her after Perry fumbled the response. Perry just didn’t seem to be well prepared for that one.

    Samuel

  • jkines

    complete and comprehensive knowledge of the sexual history of a significant other. Having spent 19 years in the medical field, I can assure you this is rarely the case even among spouses.

  • Bill S

    When you look past Newt’s policy punditry, you see a history of not-so-bright behavior and failures beyond his Contract For America leadership. He’d get shredded in a presidential campaign. Right now the other legitimate candidates are aiming their gunfire at the ones who actually have a prayer (ie. Perry and Romney). Gingrich serves a useful purpose by putting dipwad debate facilitators like Wolf Blitzer in their places.

  • bk

    There are tons of CDC-recommended vaccinations (including HPV BTW) and I presume different states have different ones of these as mandatory (with some sort of opt out). Do all of these need to be examined? And ignoring the opt-out business, it’s also cheap and sleazy for Bachmann to make it sound like kids were being tied down and forcibly injected while their weeping parents were held at bay.

    Last night on Greta’s show, Bachmann said that some mom came up to her after the debate and said Gardaasil had caused mental retardation in her daughter. Well golly gee whiz, case closed! Maybe Jenny McCarthy could be a spokesperson for Bachmann and maintain that all vaccinations should be eliminated because she thinks they made her kid autistic.

  • littlehouse18

    then the dems only have one target to concentrate on for a long time. I’d like them to keep guessing at least a bit so they have to spread out their attacks and have to focus still on Obama.

  • Scope

    to all be emotionless drones. In fact, Bachmann and Palin get high Kudos for their strong passions and emotions, just as EE gave credit to Bachmann for being a strong “mom’s” voice last night. So, the way I read it is that if you are a female, and use emotions and passions you are an automatic winner, but, if you are a male and show the emotion of anger when some are throwing crap at you, you are supposed to stand there and smile? And, if Perry went after Bachmann just as she went after him, he would have been considered a cad, just as Pawlenty was. Doesn’t matter what the discussion is about, it’s all about treating a lady as a lady, while they bare their claws and scratch your eyes out. I hate the way women fight, and then get a pass, and I am one.

  • bk

     

  • bk

    It doesn’t take a genius to guess that you’re a Ron Paul fan.

    I think people are ready for someone from the right who’ll put up a fight against Obama. We SHOULD BE pissed off at what he’s doing to the country, and it doesn’t bother me if candidate reflects that.

  • westcoastpatriette

    And you are playing fast and footloose with your statistics. Are we supposed to be scared? If so, I am not.

  • bk

    As I follow it, what Perry did in Texas had many more restrictions than did the DREAM Act, but of course his opponents and the press want to treat them as identical. Obama and the lefties want to use DREAM as part of a complete open borders/amnesty package; Perry’s view was much more limited and pragmatic.

    Think about it … DREAM is so bad it couldn’t even pass the Dem-dominated lame duck session in 2010. Does anyone with an IQ above 12 think that what passed in GOP-dominated Texas has more than something minute in common with DREAM? C’mon!

  • littlehouse18

    But honestly, he really did not come off very well in his presentation. Sometimes he looked old and slightly confused up there. This was my impression, though I’ll admit I did not see the entire debate. But I began to be worried about how he would come off versus Obama. I hope he can do better in the next one. Maybe he’s trying too hard to appear ‘nice’.

    Last night’s debate made me wish that Ryan and his kids were 10 years older. Same for Rubio.

  • Michael M

    there’s some God given right in the constitution to pork everything that moves, and it’s the government’s job to ensure that this is as safe as possible. (On the other hand, there IS a God-given right to breathe.) You work in the medical field, which means you see things when they get out of control and have a skewed sample to select from. If you exercise some caution and judgment in picking your sexual partners, the chances of catching any STD are minimal. And my risks of dying when I get into the car in 10 minutes are minimal, too. Risk is part of life. If you don’t exercise judgment, well, do we really want the government to encourage risky behavior? At what point do we say: you’re an adult, this is on you.

  • bk

    It’s among the mandatory ones in MN and isn’t the primary way to spread it via intercourse?

  • jkines

    I’m not trying to scare anyone, just inform them of the risks and benefits. The fact that HPV also causes penile cancer in men, for example, is almost never reported. This is often incorrectly labeled a womens health issue, and that is simply not the case. If you honestly do not want the vaccination, that is your choice, and even with Perry’s EO there was the choice to opt out. However, given the health risks throughout the lifespan, there is a strong case for this to be offered along with other immunizations like HepB, MMR, and Pertussis.

  • Bill S

    The only way to guarantee that you won’t be exposed to HPV is to be celibate. If your significant other/spouse/whoever had even one little fling – whether it be intercourse or Clinton-esque “non-sex”, there is the potential for exposure.

    While there may be a “societal problem” with rampant sexual promiscuity, it’s not going to be solved in my lifetime (and I’d like to think I have a few decades left)…and that leaves us with a pretty significant problem. Which is what Rick Perry was trying to deal with.

  • bk

    I’d love to see him take any of the cabinet-level departments and spend four years bashing heads and cleaning house.

  • Scope

    With the way the unemployment system is designed, those collecting unemployment don’t have to take jobs that pay less than their last job, they don’t have to travel beyond a certain number of miles, and they don’t have to take jobs that aren’t in the field where they last worked. I promise there are many many that won’t do those jobs like picking vegetables and fruits, in the hot beating sun for hours, and for low wages. How much experience and education does it take to pick tomatoes? Another area where the hispanics take jobs that many legal citizens won’t do is in mucking out horse stalls, feeding, grooming, and doing work with horses. How many people are willing to do those jobs?

    You almost sound like Tom Tancredo who would just as soon as shoot every last border crosser as they are crossing.

    Granted we must protect our borders more, with whatever method is the most effective whether it’s fencing in some areas, and border patrols in others, or sending in the national guard. The current regime in Washington won’t even deport the criminal elements, or stop anyone from crossing. But, good luck with police rounding up every illegal and escorting them across the border.

    The ones that are the most offended by the immigration policies are the ones that immigrated the proper way. Even they complain about the rhetoric coming out of the mouths that sound like they hate every last mexican or hispanic. Then even the legal ones turn around and vote for the Democrats. In Texas, I understand that the population is 38% hispanic. If Perry sounded like you, he would never have been elected Governor in Texas or anywhere. The Democrats would control everything everywhere just so they could get their votes.

  • bk

    Just because Bachmann says something doesn’t make it true.

  • jkines

    If you honestly don’t want the vaccine then opt out, but given the level of HPV proliferation, it should be offered and encouraged as an issue of safety. It isnt just personal like seatbelt laws, which I utterly oppose, but societal. Even if you have only one partner, its like sleeping with everyone they have ever slept with in their life and so on ad infinitum. I suppose you can do comprhensive background checks on everyone you consider entering a relationship with, but isn’t the vaccine ultimately more practical?

  • Scope

    He seemed to be even more fanatical and bent on his foreign policy issues which is where he loses alot of support. He couldn’t get off his most dangerous issue. That and his constant jabs at Perry. It’s a good thing Perry didn’t punch down at Paul. He let the other candidates do that. Paul was made a complete fool of by Santorum.

  • littlehouse18

    I did not hear it myself, but I could be mistaken. She sounded like she was anti-vaccine altogether, and that hurts her. Just like her stance on not raising the debt ceiling one penny – that simply wasn’t possible from an accounting point of view. I like her, and I’m against HPV mandates, but she comes off as unrealistic.

  • forlinianslip

    How anyone could watch this debate and think that Perry solidified his top spot is beyond me.

    Erickson’s analysis seems to get more unreliable throughout the debate season, being overly soft on candidates he likes and dismissive of those he doesn’t, regardless of the quality of their debate performance.

  • Scope

    was pretty fairly split. Huntsman doesn’t need additional time to spew his leftist garbage, everything that comes out of his mouth is against conservative values.

    What Blitzer did do that seemed to be his point, was he made sure in his run up to certain questions, he made sure to get everything negative in against Perry, before he even asked the question. If I’m not mistaken he even brought up the Perry Merck donation, even before Bachmann made it her personal vendetta against Perry. They were clearly trying to make Perry look as though he was a corrupt politician that could be bought off.

  • jkines

    Bachmann or Romney, I’m just going to throw pragmatism to the wind and vote my conscience, the libertarian ticket. Bachmann’s anti-vaccine histrioinics disqualified her as did Romney’s dishonesty on the exigency of entitlement reform.

  • APA Guy

    …related to the budget, entitlement reform, and employment…ans those are the key issues facing a nation sinking back into recession.

    Just a guess…

  • littlehouse18

    To me this is another gray area regarding vaccines. I can tell you that parents are not informed about this in the least. The doctors will simply say your child has to get it (as a newborn) and will not tell you how the disease is spread.

  • littlehouse18

    Four more years of Obama and we’re through.

  • Scope

    and one area where Perry could put alot of attacks to rest. Those attacking Perry for his TTC issue mainly attacked the fact that so much land would have to be taken by eminent domain. Yet they attack him because he isn’t using the eminent domain angle to build a full border fence. I wish he would just bring up that aspect of the fence. And yes, with everyone wanting to cut the budget to the bones, what other thing will have to be cut if the money goes to a fence.

  • Michael M

    What percent of the American population will contract cancer from HPV? What percent will die? How does this compare to normal contraction and death rates from the same cancers over the years?

    How does the contraction rate vary among people who have had 5 partners in their lifetime? 10? 15? 50? 100?

    What is the effectiveness of Gardasil in blocking infection? (I’m fairly certain it isn’t 100% based solely on the clinical findings.) If the inoculation encourages more sex, does that counteract the lower transmission rate?

    All of these questions matter significantly in evaluating HPV. I’m already sure of most of the answers. But instead of dealing with these numbers, you’re jumping on the modern medical bandwagon of any procedure that can be done should be done, and that isn’t true.

    What exactly do i mean by that last sentence? Take a patient who has a .005% chance of having rectal cancer and a .01% chance that colonoscopy will kill him on the operating table. The doctor — partly because of culture, partly because of malpractice suits — will recommend the colonoscopy, when it actually increases the patients likelihood of death.

    We complain about high medical costs? Let’s start lowering them by not mandating inoculations with minimal impact on public health.

  • policywonk1492

    At first I was all for her because of her performance as a congresswoman. As she became a candidate, she morphed almost overnight into a primadonna diva. She was late taking the stage at the Fox debate. Her hair looks artificial. She has headaches. She squels like a stuck pig at the mention of a vacine that was never law and had an opt out. As a professional woman myself, I avoided all organizations with “woman” in their title. I acted as a man in the workplace and traveled when told, worked late when needed and took almost no sick days. The fact that I was also a mother of three was never obvious because I made arrangements for their care as necessary. Bachman’s problem for me is that she shows female weakness in a job that will call for more than principle, it also calls for undiluted leadership, with no time outs and I don’t think she has the disposition to endure.

  • littlehouse18

    You don’t say that explicitly which makes me wonder what you do in medicine.

    Can you tell me if what I’ve heard is true – that most HPV infections are taken care of by the immune system and that only the intractable ones pose a real risk?

    BTW, I don’t think anyone here on RS is against having the vaccine available. It’s just the government mandate. Especially since this is a relatively new vaccine and there have been some safety issues.

    Our little girl does not need this vaccine now and unless she chooses later to go against her upbringing she may not need it ever. We will make her aware of it when she has to make life choices. We will not be unaware parents. These bills assume all parents are uninvolved and out-of-touch with their kids, which I find insulting.

  • westcoastpatriette

    What I object to is your earlier assertion that parents or anyone for that matter who chooses not to get the vaccine is behaving irresponsibly. And I stand by my assertion that all of the statistics coming out of the medical establishment are not without error or highly influenced by factors other than what is best for the patient.

  • littlehouse18

    For infection, yes. But not for cancer. You make it sound like HIV and it’s fear-mongering.

    As someone pointed out elsewhere, the CDC says 90% of HPV infections are naturally cleared within two years. It doesn’t have to be a permanent infection.

    Sure, if someone is going to keep exposing themselves to this risk, by all means make the CHOICE to get the vaccine.

  • audax

    nt

  • rcastonjr

    it doesn’t bother anybody here that we have over 700 bases (its been said its closer to 1000) in almost 300 countries worldwide? Some of you must really hate our Founding Fathers as they were very clear on this matter. We were to stay within the confines of our borders and build the strongest defense forces in the world. You don’t mess with us, we leave you alone. You mess with us, we destroy you. But we would be happy to trade with you even if don’t like you. Yet, since Paul actually believes in that document that is so outdated called The Constitution, many of you make him out to be some nut job.

    Have any of you realized that Paul has been predicting the current financial calamity we find ourselves in financially for 20 years. But he is just a nut job right? Well right! Got news for some of you, he is far from a nut job and closer to our founders than any of the current crop of candidates. Is he electable? I doubt it. Not in this day and age when being the worlds policeman seems to be so in vogue and we seem to jump at every opportunity to tell other countries how they must live and act.

    I just want to know who made us King of the entire planet? As for me, ya’ll can fire away or even ban me since I am not exactly following the company line here. I am a “Constitutional Conservative” and an ex-military officer. So I am not anti-military but I am opposed to the constant use of our defense forces to police the world. It’s costing us a fortune and pissing off the world. Yes, I DO believe there are consequences for imposing ourselves in other countries business.

    One final point. I do agree with Paul that the FED should be abolished. Congress has the responsibility for sound money, not some super secret organization that can print money our of thin air. We WILL pay dearly for this very soon when inflation becomes more rampant than it already is. And it IS rampant now, no matter what the fine folks at govco are telling us. But, hey, who wants to actually follow that old outdated Constitution anyway. I digress. Fire away fellas.

  • Tbone

    Bachmann came across as a mommy speaker at a local PTA meeting. “Save the little girls! Save the little girls!

    Yep, save them from measles, mumps, chickenpox, smallpox, tetanus, polio and a few other fatal diseases while you’re at it, sweetie.

    For ANY politician to imply that another politician gets bought by campaign contributions is both dishonest and ludicrous at the same time.

    What Perry should have said is that “Yes, I made a mistake signing that executive order but, I have signed dozens and you have never signed a single one, Congresswoman.

  • TFS

    I’ve had the same thoughts too. Tim Pawlenty’s sudden endorsement of Romney makes me even happier that Pawlenty is no longer in the race. He seems to be sucking up to Romney now.

    Bauchmann’s intense pounding of Perry comes off bad. She has gone down in my view. She never pounded Romney this way and, in my opinion, RomneyCare is much worse than this HPV stuff.

    The intensity with which all of the other candidates are going after Perry makes him look like more of an “anti-Republican establishment” candidate to me. There wasn’t this intensity when Romney was the supposed front-runner and I’ve always viewed him as the establishment candidate.

    You’re definitely not alone in your thinking on this. I agree with you.

  • bk

    We wouldn’t want some strangers’ blood forced into our kids’ veins, right?

  • JSobieski

    Issues like this involve potentially bad outcomes on both sides of the decision. Only legislators have the ability to merely vote yes or no without there being any consequences.

    When combined with the SS issue, I am disgusted with Bachmann.

    She acts tough by being against any raising of the debt ceiling, but she (1) has no economic plan of her own and (2) goes crawling into the tall grass any time entitlements comes up.

    So Bachmann, how would you cut enough spending to avoid the necessity of a debt ceiling increase?

    Bachmann the Congresscritter doesn’t have to answer that question.

    Bachmann the Presidential candidate DOES need to answer that question.

    Her titantium-spine is an invention of her own mind.

  • keysconservative

    where we choose our candidates based on their ideas, intelligent solutions to complicated problems and their ability to communicate those ideas and solutions Newt would be the man. He clearly won all 3 debates by giving the best answers to every question posed to him. After the debate he was on Fox News with Greta and she asked him about the present situation in the Middle East and once again proved himself the elder statesman with the knowledge and experience to deal effectively with that situation. (If you can find the video do yourself a favor and watch it.)
    Of course we don’t live in a perfect world and questions about ‘electability’ become more important than ideas. The irony is any candidate we choose is ‘electable’ if we rally support around them. Some won’t support Newt because he sat on a couch with Nancy Pelosi. How ridiculous is that? Sure, Newt has flaws, but what candidate doesn’t? We’ve had nearly 3 years with an adolescent in the White House. It would be a relief to have an adult in there in 2012. If we don’t stop fighting like children and choose our candidates based on policy positions and ideas none of our choices become ‘electable’.

  • http://www.fpcr.org balloonjuice

    But,

    1. Circling the wagons works well when North American Indians are the attackers. We live in a world in which our three pronged response is the equivalent of border defense internationally.

    2. I’ve been predicting our current economic woes for the same amount of time (he is a few years my senior however). But that does not give me automatic access to a microphone or the presidency.

    3. What neither Paul, nor apparently you, understand is that he was not booed for speaking with respect to what our foreign policy should be but for adopting the “Blame America First” attitude. And as I am also a former military, though not career, I understand that we are placing the lives of an entire generation at risk. But that was not the reason for the boos. If you can locate a tape, please go back and consider carefully WHY the audience found Dr. Paul’s remarks completely out of bounds.

    4. Abolishing the fed is a great idea (I am as Austrian as is Dr. Paul), but it is not going to happen anytime soon. Dr. Paul needs to consider interim incremental steps that will get us from here to there without completely undermining the currency we do have now. I’m not saying it cannot be done; simply that Dr. Paul has not done it up to now. He is very good as an Austrian, but he is no Hayek.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    doesn’t matter what qualifiers you used, to suggest, over here that RP ever had a thought that wasn’t totally stupid and totally evil will win you no friends.

  • http://www.fpcr.org balloonjuice

    I think the biggest thing coming out of these debates is the degree to which the “contestants” are at one another. I like your RR quote sir and may I remind us also of Reagan’s “Eleventh Commandment.” There is too much of the bidding of the MSM. Newt has got their number; I wish all the participants did.

    Oh, and as far as the Gardasil thing is concerned. Nobody opposed Rick Perry any more than I did on that subject at that time. But it’s over. He learned his lesson. I wish he would apologize, but I think “it was a mistake” is as close as we’re going to get. Not a single girl was immunized under that program. It’s over. I now think that Governor Perry is the best person available to defeat Obama. And right now that is more important than something that never actually happened.

  • http://www.fpcr.org balloonjuice

    Vetting is important, I agree. Most of the things now being brought up by Paul, Bachmann, etc. have already been vetted last year when Perry ran against KBH in the primary. She pulled out the same spin at that time and people saw through it. They’ll see through it again.

    Smears are still smears, no matter how much it is called vetting.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    No, I don’t support RP for president and never did,

    Yes, I agree he is a bit flaky, some of his positions are extreme, and his followers are annoying.

    I also know that he has been a committed free marketer as a representative, and that he has brought up many positions held by many Americans that have not been presented by main stream politicians. That is the reason that he has such a following.

    I just don’t understand why an old man, about to retire, gins up so much outright bile filled hatred from you.

    I stand by what I wrote, it is unbecoming, it does not make Ron Paul look bad it makes YOU look bad.

  • littlehouse18

    No, but why are only children targeted for this vaccine? My doctor has never mentioned it to me. There are other nasties that can be transmitted by blood for which there is no vaccine yet, We still have to rely on blood screening in all cases.

  • Scope

    her child becoming mentally retarted because of the vaccine. She said that in the debate. Then she goes on Greta’s show, and I just heard her comments on Greta, she said- After the debate a woman came up to het to tell her about her daughter becoming menatlly retarted etc. So, the Obama admin. keeps coming up with these poor people who have come to them with their woes, and almost every time, the people are found out to be plants. So now, Bachmann apparently isn’t doing the same phony victim lying. Was it before or after the debate Michelle, or did it never actually happen?

  • littlehouse18

    I meant to imply that the Hep B seems a bit different from HPV in that it can be spread by other than sexual activity. So I would be more inclined to ok it. But parents should be informed about this and all vaccines and the various levels of risk.

  • aeaeren

    Huntsman – He grates on my last nerve. He actually reminds me of Obama with the way he plays to your emotions first then beats around the bush to finally make a point. His Traitor comment was soooo out of place and flat wrong it was just plain stupid.

    Cain – I love him but he won’t win. I would make sure to keep him around for a cabinet post (NOT Sec of State John Bolten is the man)

    Bachmann – sigh, I love most of what she says but last night she actually showed why the left thinks she is unhinged and way to emotional. History is againt her and with no Executive experience which I think is one of the driving points she is done. If she was in a leadership position she might have a shot of getting passed the lack of exec experience.

    Romney – Look silly with his SS attacks, got slapped down with them but no real damage as he still lives in ADT protected glass dog house. But he should learn not to throw rocks inside his glass dog house. Romeny care is/was and forever shall be a BAD policy period!

    Perry – I loved that he owned up to a bad policy but he really needs to work on his response. One issue that was brought up was crony capitilism. I think he needs to nip this in the bud now before he loses any Palin supporters. I don’t think anyone else makes this drug so it really should be a non issue. I understand his reasoning and what he was trying to do with his Exec Order, just with our Current President pretty much ruling with Exec Orders it looks bad. Immigration is hard topic and he needs to clean it up and thinking how the Nation wants to deal with it not just Texas.

    Ru Paul – DESPICABLE and a DISGRACE. While he might have somewhat of a point 9/12 is the worse time and the debates are the worse forumn (not enough time to expand on the topic ect) to have this discussion and his constant attack on spending on the wars just keeps the WACKO meter pegged.

    Newt – Great ideas but not trustworthy when it comes to leading.

    Santorium – Should once again run for State Senate in PA. He isn’t going to gain traction with the country. He does make the debate more interesting and I thank him for getting Ru Paul to make an ass of himself on national TV.

    I am a Palin supporter but I am more inclined to vote for Perry over Palin unless she gets in and starts participating in the debates. I think Perry needs to keep up with the making the Federal Gov’t inconsequential pledge.

  • acat

    A simple google news search for “teacher student inappropriate” finds hundreds of stories.

    Anyone wanna bet that every single teacher engaging in inappropriate behaviour is germ-free?

    Mew

  • The_Gadfly

    is that for most conservatives there is nothing to debate. Romney passed something that looks almost exactly like Obamacare, albeit at the state level. That is unacceptable. Stick a fork in him, he’s done. The only thing keeping him in the race is the establishment machine that recycles last season’s loser to this season’s candidate. In a normal election cycle that might have been enough, and therefore warrant more attacks on Romneycare. But this isn’t a normal election cycle, and Romney can’t win it.

  • rcastonjr

    has been right on some issues he has fought for means that you may have your head….err….may be somewhat set in your ways and closed minded. I disagree with Paul on many issues but there is no denying that he has been right on monetary policy. For you or anyone else here to be so vindictive towards Paul that you cannot bring yourself to accept the fact that on some issues he has been right on the money says a lot about you. And I could care less about whether I win any friends here or not. Our goal should not be to “win friends” but it’s the truth we should be after. I am determined not to bury my head in the sand and simply pass off another’s opinion as BS since it doesn’t fall within the establishment Republican company line. I choose to be open minded enough that I listen to every person out there with an idea. I’ll make up my own mind and I don’t need the RNC, Red State, you, or anyone else making up my mind for me. The fact is, it is undeniable that Ron Paul has been right on some of the issues facing this country. It is also a fact that a true Constitutionalist will have a hard time getting along here at times, even as a Republican, since many Republicans have a hard time staying within the confines of The Constitution just as the dems almost always do. The whole idea that “to suggest, OVER HERE that RP EVER had a thought that wasn’t totally stupid and totally evil” is ridiculous. We can, and should, glean ideas from everyone with one. I am grounded enough in what I believe that I am not afraid to entertain the ideas of others and none of us here should be either.

  • gracie

    As a Perry supporter from Texas this is the one aspect of his immigration policy that I cannot find a way to defend. What do you think?

    On Gardasil I just do not understand why he does not say that making it mandatory made the insurance companies have to pay for it!! After THAT he has explained it!

    Perry has so many other important qualities I cannot understand people ignoring…jobs, limited gov, don’t spend all the money, drilling, EPA, all the things he mentioned in his speech in Lousisana; these issues tell us we can trust him as the conservative in the race. He has core beilefs; Romney does not.

  • Scope

    up his butt last night at the debate, which is exactly where it has been for the last 30 years. And as far as his feet are concerned, he only opens his mouth to exchange from right foot to left foot. Paul proved to many last night that he is nothing more than a crazy radical loon, that has escaped his handlers at the mental institution.

  • rr999

    There is one major concern with Mr. Perry, his stand on illegal immigration.
    How Texas has chose to deal with the issue of college tuition can remain in Texas and NOT go nationwide. The problem even with that proposition is that college students travel, they won?t remain within the borders of the state that chooses to offer incentives or ?opportunities?. Why should we subsidize Texas in this matter?
    Having been a Republican most likely longer than yourselfErik, I cannot and will not support a repeat of ?The Architect?s? approach to the Latino vote block ? this position would seem to imply that a majority of an entire race of people is incapable of following the law. This position is NOT held by the majority of LEGAL Latino immigrants or resident aliens and should be discarded sooner than later so Republicans generally quit coming across as bigots who don?t understand the very demographic they claim a desire to build a relationship with. Gov. Perry can frame his current position as necessary for his state to address the utter failure of the Federal Government to enforce its own laws in regard to immigration; after all in 1986 Reagan had a two step plan amnesty first, then tougher enforcement. A Democratic Senate and Congress never followed though on the enforcement component ? so here we are suing states that attempt to protect their citizens.
    We have been spent billions to secure Iraq and Afghanistan, only to allow our current Homeland Security team to train them on border security, irony of the worst kind, we will NEVER be able to leave if these countries follow the lead of our government chieftains in regard to borders. Our borders are as fouled up now as they were on 9/10/2001; this is NOT how to remember and honor our fallen or to continue running OUR country.

  • Veronica

    Bachmann needs to go back to being a fierce advocate for mothers, “innocent girls” (whatever) and honing the tea party message.

    Don’t want her as an executive.

    I want someone more “inclusive.”

    Homeschooler moms are fierce and they’re needed, just not as President.

  • gekster

    What subsidy does Texas give illegles.

  • Veronica

    We’ve fearmongering — just based on the fact that this isn’t well-researched and she got someone off the streets — and she used very, very poor judgment to use this.

    I’d think it was based on emotion.

    .. sort of what Perry says drove him to sign that EO in the first place.

  • pttx333

    Scope, if I may, I’d like to add to your comment that “… it’s all about treating a lady as a lady …” – I was taught and will always believe that “in order to be treated like a lady, you must first behave as one.” I find that behavior sorely lacking in Bachmann and Palin these days. Their true colors have come to the surface, and it “ain’t” pretty, much less ladylike.

  • onemovoter

    That since Texas has a sales tax, both Legal and illegal pays taxes to the state government, which in turns sends money to support it’s public college system. When a child of an illegal couple graduates high school, their parents having been paid all this time, they fulfill the qualifications for instate tuition, except for the illegal part.

    Texas has the problem that they do not have the power to deport illegals out of the country. They also are mandated by the federal government to supply certain welfare even if they are illegal. There are many other limitations that Texas suffers on this. So they looked at what options they had and decided to accept the problem and try to deal with it by helping those who are trying to be productive citizens.

    Texas and other states are between a rock and a hard place until the federal government steps up and does its job. It’s why I’m looking at this issue practically instead of in fantasy land.

  • RonLewenberg

    Erik, I know that you’ve been tied to Perry since you introduced his campaign, but come on.
    The HPV issue is not just the vaccine, but the abuse of executive orders usurping the role of the legislature, on the advice of a former adviser who is now a lobbyist for the manufacturer of a vaccine. It is abuse of power and crony capitalism.

    On immigration, the issue was not just his stances, but his language. He basically said that Texas has a responsibility to Mexico, not the rest of the US. He basically holds that illegal aliens in Texas and are Texans and legislates accordingly. And he uses leftist racial language like “last names” to try to silence opposition. If this were a democrat, you’d be screaming bloody murder.

    But as Perry, you carry his water.

  • cbartlett

    There is a whole lot of mis-information out there about Rick Perry and liberals and MSM aren’t the only ones passing it on. Please check the link below and EDUCATE yourself before just throwing out phrases like Bilderberger and NAFTA highway and HPV vaccines – without facts to back it up. If you read this and still don’t like Perry, well, you are certainly entitled to the opinion. But remember if we keep throwing all of this meaningless stupid dribble out there about all of these candidates, we are handing over some wonderful material for Obama to exploit and defeat us in ’12. We shouldn’t be judging any of these candidates on one or two issues. The real question – what are they going to do with this destroyed economy? Perry wants Washington out of our lives – and that is the right answer. Let state and local governments determine what is best for their people. I cannot fight the EPA or the DOE or the DHHS and we have found out in our business, that neither can my elected House Rep – they are powerless. I CAN call my state rep, my state senator or my mayor. We need the feds out of our lives and Perry wants to do that. Enough said.
    http://peskytruth.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/rick-perrys-negatives

  • momofthecastle

    and rude, besides.
    Mr. Paul was quite interesting to listen to. His boos came because he did say America was attacked on 9/11 because of our own policies. And I didn’t like that either.
    I thought last night’s debate was extremely interesting. It is the first one I have been able to watch, and I don’t have a favorite in the race. So I am not looking at the comments through biased-colored glasses.

    I thought Mrs. Bachmann seemed to want to attack on things I considered beaten to death. But I appreciate her insistence on recalling ObamaCare.

    I thought, actually, that each of the candidates had good points they brought out, and some points that I disagreed with. All in all, it was very informative.

    I think I am tired of listening to so many of the commentators on this site bashing candidates they don’t support in rude ways, as well as seeing only the good points of their chosen preference. I don’t mind someone supporting a candidate this early in the race, but please, give me your reasons in facts, not emotions.

  • momofthecastle

    He said that if she thought he could BE BOUGHT for $5,000, he was offended.
    I notice he did not insult her back.

  • momofthecastle

    It was a really great debate in my opinion. I think I could vote for any of them at this point, although I am sure that statement will open up a barrage of comments. :)

  • cbartlett

    BUT Perry needs to defend the HPV and immigration issues better if we are to defeat Obama. We Texans have had problems with some issues in the past but we got over them. The HPV opt-out was always there for parents – Bachman comes across as desperate and whiny when she brings up the issue. And the crony capitalism accusation was over the top – $6000 is a drop in the bucket in these fund raising accounts. One reason that Perry made the vaccine mandatory was to get it covered by insurance. He should say that he was attempting to make it possible for all citizens, including poor and middle class that otherwise might not afford it, to have the CHOICE to have it. The in-state tuition for illegal imiigrants has qualifications – the young people have to have been brought here by relatives before they were 18 (i.e. they probably had no choice inthe matter), graduate from a Texas public high school (lots of them don’t), be accepted into a state college or university (not necessarily a given), be working towards citizenship (don’t think they can graduate without it?), and there’s no guarantee that it’ll be paid for. They MAY qualify for loans or grants but you have to work at getting that too. At least these kids will be attempting to get an education and perhaps a job – which is WAY more than most of their parents have done. And guess what? These kids will probably have to speak English to do all of the above. Also more than their parents have done. How do you ever break that welfare cycle without doing something like this? Shipping them all back across the border may just be a dream – many of them have younger siblings who were born here so officials are reluctant to send the parents back because those kids become wards of the state. When there were only 4 dissenting votes in both houses of the Rep-majority state legislature, it says something about local support. Rick is not saying that the rest of the country should do any of these things – it was right for TEXAS! The main quality I support in Perry is his desire to shrink federal control and get these things back to the states. It is what our founding fathers wanted from the beginning.

  • Scope

    that I was off base and rude. It is my opinion that I was correct in my views of Paul. Try telling the extremely rude Paul supporters that have called me every name in the book, neo-con being the kindest name. Try telling the Paul supporters that Uncle Ron has some serious need of looking at America and everything American as not being the big bad country, that has caused all of the world’s ills. Try telling the Paul supporters, that have been on the Perry attack since before he even got in the race, much of the time with misinformation, twisted logic, and outright lying because they feared that Perry would overtake Paul easily. Try telling the Paul supporters to stop coming here to RedState and claiming that this has become the Rick Perry support site, and that the site is against every other candidate.

    If last nights debate was the first debate you watched, and you didn’t watch any of the debates in 08 which included Ron Paul, and you are just now beginning to look into the candidates, you have much to learn about Paul and his positions. You can start by reading the information provided right here at RedState posted about Paul by googling Ron Paul at the top.

  • cbartlett

    Can you imagine how entertaining White House press conferences would be? I would love to see the MSM squirm.

  • cbartlett

    nt

  • Finrod

    .

  • ora09

    For those of us who think 9/11 was not the work of a few cavemen in Afghanistan Ron Paul spoke the truth. That act was an obvious retaliation for our 1991 war against Irak, our continue intervention there for the whole next decade
    and military bases in the region. Paul’s error was his usual passionate verbosity. Hard to swallow, thou.

  • mikeymike143

    that means 95% of the republicans wisely decided they didnt want this crackpot as POTUS. and i expect the same thing to happen to ”lefty” paul in this primary.

  • redpenny

    that the most knowledgable and deep thinking individual hasn’t a chance of winning the Repub nomination.I speak of Newt—–too bad he has such a large cache of baggage which uniniated lemmings won’t be able to get past.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …regardless of his being depicted as “an old man, about to retire.”

    And anyone who tries to defend his anti-Semitic postures must answer to the specifics of his idiocy [such as opposing a border-fence to keep Americans from fleeing to Mexico, as he said last week].

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …whatever else he wishes to aver…when he ignores the existential threat against America/Israel promulgated by the Islamists.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …for the underlying intent of the Islamists to renew the Crusades.

    They will always find something against which to “retaliate.”

    And anyone who rationalizes-away such conduct is knowingly blind.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …and it illustrated why her compulsion to attack [amplified by post-Debate claims that the vaccine was grossly unsafe] was primarily politically-motivated.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/213060/20110913/republican-debate-gop-romney-perry.htm

    He was impeccable as a debater, but Perry was more affable.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …is that his stridency doesn’t have a shelf-life.

    note serial comments regarding Libya, always attacking BHO regardless of ambient circumstance

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    a very good teacher. But he doesn’t have the temperament for leadership. Everyone old enough remembers how Bill Clinton continually rolled him, stole his socks, and gave him wedgies.

    I would live to see him though, in some position of responsibility in a republican Cabinet.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    candidate, if only because much of that establishment is still run by sycophants to the Bush clan. And the Bush clan loath Perry.

    And you can be certain that this is true because Karl Rove denied it.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    no government experience is a liability. We have seen this happen on a city or state level and what happens is that the businessman comes in with all sorts of good ideas but no knowledge of how things really get done in politics, and inevitably he gets rolled by the political operatives.

  • Scope

    Paul in not just an old man, ready to retire. He has started a R3volution, with false words and hopes, promising to bring to all who would listen, and work their fingers to the nub, (and send him money) to pass on the great hope of a perfect utopia. If these people ever had the opportunity to vote for that utopia, and send him, or someone like him to the WH, they would find that his description of utopia is far different than Webster’s definition. He is a Communist sympathizer, and I’ve never heard anyone living under communism describe it as any sort of utopia.

  • Scope

    Keep them coming Rick.

  • carolynr

    1. Perry said that he had gone about this the wrong way. He should have done this through the legislature, not executive order. So…the man has the humility to recognize when he is wrong and right…how refreshing.
    2. The way he went about the vaccine was wrong. Now, here is where I have a real problem with Bachmann…and I don’t care to even listen to her drivel any longer. It did, in the final analysis go through the legislature. THERE WAS NO MANDATE…BECAUSE MANDATE DON’T HAVE OPT-OUTS. Perry, time and time again said there was an opt-out….what is it about that word that people do not seem to understand.
    3. He got a $5,000 contribution from Merck. Well…do you know how much Bachmann’s husband got in a government grant to try to change gays to straights? That was my money and really…I don’t think it is the government’s business to get into that.

    Concerning immigration. I know that he did not say that Texas has a responsibility to Texas. First let me preface this…I am a female, while voter and a Conservative. Now for the question: Cubans come over to this country and if they hit dry land…they are citizens or can become citizens. Are we treating them differently than Mexicans? (2) Perry said that “if they were working towards their citizenship, they were permitted in-state tuition”. We are talking about people applying for citizenship. (3) Are you tired to hitting ONE for English…well, I am and if this will help Latinos assimilate into our society so I don’t have to push that button (which is not the fault of Perry but our LIBERAL LAWMAKERS)…then let them learn English. (4) This is how this election is going to shake out: Most White Males – Republican, 1/2 White Females – Republican; Cubans – Republican; Black Americans – 85% Democrat (down from 92%); Young People – split on parties, unless we give hem an option on SS. HOWEVER, WE CANNOT WIN THE ELECTION WITHOUT LATINOS. So, you either want to save the Republic to give it back to Obama. (5) I have no doubt that if elected, Perry would be very, very tough on crime. Perry’s Texas and its’ interaction with Mexicans is a FAR CRY from Jerry Brown’s CA where anything goes and nobody suffers consequences. So, I believe there would be deportation if Perry were President…we know where Obama stands…NOTHING WILL HAPPEN. (6) THERE WILL NOT BE A FENCE BUILT. We have said it and said it…WE DON’T HAVE THE MONEY TO BUILD IT. However, bring home our troops and use the National Guard and drones and we can stop illegal immigration. (7) Are you aware of the demographics in Texas? 36% of the population are Mexican, either here legally or working on green cards/visas. 48% are children of those people, going to school 1st-12th, 68% are in pre-Kindergarten. So our choice, round up all the people here and deport them…ALL OF THEM….Of course….remember, we need their votes (they lean Republican because of religion and work ethic) or we find some way to allow a certain percentage every year. You and I are minorities. Perry’s idea is instead of having all those people work as migrant workers…why not RAISE THEIR EDUCATIONAL STANDARDS…and instead of them getting paid the minimum wage…perhaps with a better education (they are here anyway) they can contribute more as a percentage of income because they are educated. That was…everyone wins…the government collects more and like Perry said…they are not on the government dole. So…Mr. Lewenberg…which would you prefer…Detroit’s way of doing thing, i.e., WELFARE, or educating people to contribute to society?

  • RonLewenberg

    Cubans are political refugees. We give them asylum and some become citizens. Mexicans are not. And our history with Mexico is unique. We conquered part of their territory through immigration and revolt. Based on irredentism, Americans citizens supported the Texas revolt and we latter annexed Texas. We then conquered more territory in the Mexican American War. Mexicans are taught to see the Southwest as stolen and this theft and US meddling as the cause of their poverty. At best the invasion of our Southwest is the Mexican elite proping their plutocracy by sending settlers north to send back money and releave pressure. At worst it is an irredentist and revanchist invasion. There is no such parallel with Cuba.
    2. Illegal aliens cannot apply for citizenship.
    But why should Texan children lose slots at Texas colleges so that foreign poor can be subsidized and get affirmative action?

    3. You have it backwards. The best way to end the bilingual mess is to stop the influx of foreigners. This would allow for actual assimilation.

    4. The biggest losers to illegal aliens are American Hispanics. Wages are depressed, schools are over-run and their political leaders like them poor, disposesed and the leading edge of the creation of new people, rather than treating them like Americans.

    5. Based on what? Perry has never supported any deportations or called for them. He also opposes attrition through enforcement.

    6. Fences are cheap. Troops are expensive. Immigration is expensive.

    7. Your refusal to differentiate between citizens of the US and Mexico is telling. In other words, they have already conquered Texas, so help them conquer the nation?