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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

Herman Cain Won the Debate

By: Erick Erickson (Diary)  |  September 22nd, 2011 at 10:43 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Good Lord this was the worst debate I think I’ve ever watched.

The audio was terrible. When the audience clapped the sound of the candidates faded away. The charts and polling was silly. Too many bells and whistles and too damn many candidates on the stage.

Did you know Gary Johnson intends to balance a budget? Whoopitydoo.

Rick Perry was a train wreck in this debate. He flubbed his response on Romney flip-flopping. He got the first question tonight and stumbled. Good grief.

Romney did so much better than Perry. So much better. But I still cannot believe these candidates have pulled their punches on Romneycare. He’s getting a free pass on it. But his answers on so many questions, while smoothly delivered, were Democrat like.

The winner is Herman Cain. The audience loved him. Other than his question on Israel, Cain’s answers really were out of the park awesome. He provided the most uplifting moments and the most memorable lines, with substance included.

Biggest two surprises of the night? Rick Santorum came off like a jerk. He was way too angry on every answer, even those times I fully agreed with him. He was just angry.

Jon Huntsman gave some very good and substantive answers.

Lastly, if Newt Gingrich could operate like he debates he’d be President.

There are still 15 minutes left, but I’ve had enough. This was miserable all around.

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COMMENTS

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  • AceInTX

    He needs to get a grip or we’re going to be stuck with Romney…

    sigh

  • Tavern Keeper

    I don’t watch these things just because you can’t have 9 people on stage and expect to have a real debate. Its basically a soundbyte contest.

    Takeaway from someone who purposefully didn’t watch it:

    1. Herman Cain is great. He’s serious and conservative. He will not be the nominee.

    2. Newt Gingrich would be a serviceable president. Better than some, but the weaknesses would no doubt Richard Nixonate him. I like Newt Gingrich. He is in the hall of fame of the Conservative movement. He will not be the nominee.

    3. Romney is far better than the status quo but not of our movement. I’ll vote for him as nominee (giving him 5-to-1 odds), and think he would probably excel at certain aspects. Romney may be the nominee.

    4. George W. Bush lost 2 of 3 debates to Al Gore, and at least one to Kerry. Even Ronaldus Magus “lost” his last debate to Mondale. And those were actual debates. Rick Perry’s conservative bona fides are solid, and his philosophy is in line with our principles. I would be disappointed in Red Staters who threw him overboard due only to “performance.” Rick Perry will probably be the nominee, and hopefully, the next President.

  • chbroussard

    was that Perry was equally as bad in the gubernatorial debates, but still won the election. Hopefully people will forget this night before the primary season. This was awful.

  • http://www.planettron.com NickDeringer

    Mr. Plastic has learned how to work the crowd over the years and he does it well. Perry could have hit him with a body blow on his fip-flopping, but he bungled it.

    If this keeps up we will fall victim to the “Last man standing” syndrome. Romney will win just because everybody else is so bad.

  • kabane52

    On Perry. Cain definitely won, and he was my original choice, but he has no chance at the Republican nomination. Perry very effectively answered the question on in-state tuition. He was absolutely right on India and demonstrated his newfound knowledge on foreign policy. Perry did botch an opportunity with Romneycare, but the Republican voters have already made a decision about Romneycare- they hate it. Ultimately, between Romney and Perry, I think Perry edged Romney on issues which Republicans were actually cautious. Romney confirmed suspicions by standing by his health plan. He stood by it eloquently, yes. But Republican voters care most about the substance.

  • atlracer35

    & he’s a problem solver….not a career politician.

  • dkons21

    I was expecting a lot more given it was a foxnews debate… I was thoroughly disappointed.

    Overall, half the candidates on stage shouldn’t even be there. Huntsman’s a liberal, the two libertarians range from crazy wacko to who the hell is this guy. Bachman’s hung herself multiple times on a range of issues, the angry man with some sort of unfounded grudge towards Perry and that leaves us with the rest of the people worth hearing from..

    Romney: Great debater, lifetime flip-flopper, owner of the atrocious Romneycare
    Perry: Great guy, terrible debater, owner of subsidizing education for Illegals.
    Newt: Great debater, class act, compassion beyond measure, operationally insufficient.
    Cain: Inconsistent debater, great ideas, hit and miss depending on the issue.

    Another grudge I have regarding tonights debate was all of the flip-flopping of statements… If you make a mistake, show some spine and admit to it, or stand by it. The he said, she said, I definitely never said B.S. is disgusting.

  • nepanyrush

    Very comfortable in his answers, very clear speaker. At this point, seems by far to be the best potential debater against Obama because he creates a lot of confidence in the viewers. It was near impossible for Perry to land a punch on Romney because Romney deflects Perry’s comments so easily.

    I went into the debate as a Perry supporter, but was surprised by his floundering. I was coming up with a lot better answers and I did not even follow his career in Texas.

    It is looking more and more to me like Romney will be the GOP candidate.

  • traversecityconservative

    Herman’s still my number one, Newt second and then Romney. Perry’s definitely out in my mind. He doesn’t get that we don’t want illegals getting discounted college classes so that they can take our jobs…

  • atlasshrugs

    I was a Pawlenty supporter for most of the year. When Pawlenty dropped out, I sensed a vacuum. When Perry got in I was excited. Tonight he totally disappointed me. I am not a fan of Romney, but must admit that he appeared much more prepared and comfortable than Perry.

  • atlasshrugs

    more than Romney

  • Tavern Keeper

    Of focusing too much on performance over substance. I’m in advertising, so I understand in the most instances the former matters as much or more-so than the latter. But this isn’t sales, its survival. This isn’t promotion, its prosperity. We need to look at consistency of issues, adherence to principles, and conservative philosophy. Take 2/3 of that and add in 1/3 of the “electability” factor, and you get Governor Perry.

    I wish we lived in a different world, but we don’t. We must fight our fight in the arena we’ve been given.

  • RealQuiet

    Hard to disagree with your assessment Erick. I really like Perry, but his lack of polish on national issues in a debate format is starting to hurt him and we could see another dip in Perry’s support. Just not a good night. I’m not happy. Romney I thought was great tonight though I still have a problem with Romneycare and his chameleon positions. I just flat out don’t believe him because he’s changed positions so many times throughout his career.

  • squeek71

    who really like Herman Cain, but won’t support him because they say he can’t win. I don’t understand that. If they all supported him, he would have a good shot. He is the most likeable one up there, and he is very conservative and smart. Why settle at this point?

  • kabane52

    Honestly, these debates do virtually nothing unless there is a big moment of the night- which there wasn’t, except for Johnson. Johnson will probably start to poll at around two percent, stealing votes from Paul. But that’s it.

  • lightspeed

    I agree that Cain did well. He should get a bump form this. Bachmann will continue to fade. Gingrich is…well Gingrich–too much baggage there.

    Perry lost my vote. His answers were slow and confused. He seemed almost drugged. No passion for anything. He will drop to second in the national polls and soon fade quickly into the background as conservatives look for another “not Romney.” Heck, Hunstman looked better than he did. Sad.

    Face it, unless Palin or Christie get in, Romney is our guy. I am not happy about it either.

  • nepanyrush

    I hadn’t even followed the issue to its logical conclusion: the illegals getting the $100,000 benefit at University of Texas will then outcompete those who are in the country legally but had to go to a community college because of lack of tuition money.

  • wonkish1

    But I’m not going to lie for the guy just because I like him. He blew massively. If he doesn’t start turning around his debate performances, I’m sorry I’ve got to call a spade a spade, he’s going to lose the nomination.

  • Jim Tomasik

    Everyone else lost.

    It looked like Michelle Bachmann was ashamed of herself…but I really loved her dress! :)

  • Toby Calvert-Lee

    Rick Perry wasn’t a bumbling idiot, he put Romney on his heels and sounded smart on the issues

  • eugenio

    Herman Cain will not win the nomination but he deserves a prime time slot at the GOP convention next year and should be nominated as the head of the EPA.

    The debate really stunk like all the others so far. We need a debate that has conservative bloggers asking the questions. Get Erik Erikson, Thomas Lifson and Michelle Malkin. We conservatives are so through with the lamestream media and that includes FNC.

  • squeek71

    at this point in 2007… Nothing is set in stone.

    I think Cain won… I love Newt in the debates, but I don’t trust him. I think Perry got hurt in this one.

  • East_TN_Blonde

    “Other than his question on Israel, Cain?s answers really were out of the park awesome.” So what was wrong with Cain’s answer on Israel? I thought he gave a great answer. He showed he was knowledgeable and at the same time gave a straight and simple answer, and one which was absolutely correct.

    As for the people who say Cain can’t win, why not? Why are you letting the media and the establishment chose your candidate for you? Any one of these people can win if we will get behind him or her. We need to pick the one who we believe will do the best job. Hopefully the winner will be a true conservative who will stand true to principles and be a strong contrast to Obama’s failed liberal policies. When the primary winner is chosen, we need to unite behind that person. Then that person WILL be electable and people will vote for REAL change and not the empty words they voted for when they elected Obama.

  • windwaker24

    I’ll still vote for him in the Primary. If he loses, I’ll write in Perry/Cain in the general. Mitt Romney is a worm!

  • wonkish1

    Debates do matter, how you handle a speech matters. I’m sorry but you can’t just run around handing out a list of “this is what I’m for and this is what I’m against” and run a few campaign commercials and get elected.

    You are running to be a politician, if you blow at speaking there isn’t much else you have to market yourself.

  • Darin_H

    Perry struck out when he needed a big hit. Romney made no mistakes, and is benefiting from running previously. I think Perry would make a better President, but Romney might make a much better candidate. Romney was killing it tonight.

    Huntsman and Johnson came off well. Cain was solid and back to the form where he won the first debate. Paul was even decent (probably because he really didn’t get any foreign policy questions). Gingrich needs to be a big player (Sec State?) in the next administration.

  • aesthete

    His answer on healthcare was excellent (no surprise, there).

    Newt performed well, as usual.

    Gary Johnson got his footing near the end, but some of his answers (like the one on foreign policy) were just atrocious.

    Santorum was simply awful, though he did give a pretty good answer on school subsidies.

    Bachmann…. *pulls hair out*

    Paul was Paul.

    Huntsman did good, but not great.

    Perry was awful. Someone needs to wake him up for these things.

    Romney was his usual sleazy self.

  • californiagold

    …said he would choose Romney as his VP.

    By default, Rick Perry won this debate…in spite of what Erick claims. Coming into the debate, all the reports were that Perry would be attacked by the others. Well, they tried yet didn’t land any blows. Romney needed to make a strong hit tonight to continue the momentum he gained from previous debates. Tonight he failed.

    While it’s obvious that Rick Perry is not a strong debater, the campaign now enters the phase where he excels….retail, door to door politics. In Iowa and South Carolina, Perry should do very well.

  • sayoung80913

    sorry,Romney stuttered twice on two different answers,lied outright on some as well, and gave democratic answers. Perry stuttered on the romney care thing but other than that, I thought he did fine. Not really sure what people are expecting from a debate with nearly 10 people on the stage at this point. Love Cain and wish there was someway he could get in, but Romney didn’t change a single mind here tonight other than those already in the tank for him. His answers are too smooth,too rehearsed,too fake. Perry zinged him good a few times,especially on SSn and his remarkably flip flopping ability-even Bret Baier pointed out his flip flopping at the end. This debate comes out as even,won’t make a bit of difference in the polls either and about immigration-remember they are in the state of FLORIDA-that is FLORIDA. We’ll just see whose answer played the best there. Perry’s state is texas and the Texas legislature wrote that bill,and passed that bill overwhelmingly-it is not unpopular by any sytretch of the imagination there. i liked his answer to it because he explained it better. Speaking for myself, I look at RECORD and not RHETORIC, because all Romney gives is often contradicting rhetoric, but his record is far more revealing. It worked for Reagan, who did poorly at debating but still went on to win because people could tell he was authentic-nobody knows where Romney stands on any issue and if he hasn’t locked down a majority by now,when will he?

  • Tavern Keeper

    In actuality Johnson voters will probably come from the pool of those who have been previously too “young” or “cool” to vote. You can count on a strong turnout of 12.5% of this entire group. And seriously, Johnson may be pulling from Paul and other third parties. Let’s name them the “Libertine” Party.

    When we get to 3 or preferably 2 real candidates, then we’ll have real debates about real political issues that are actionable. Let the line be drawn, and may conservatives rule.

    Either way, GOP on 2012 is a must regardless. We can deal with the aftermath afterwards. I was one who though at one time “Let the liberals have it and screw it up . . . then we’ll take it back.” Well I’m done with letting them do whatever. We need to enact Operation American Prosperity!

  • Marcus_Traianus

    Channeling Edgar Casey;

    - Romney wins and is the candidate,
    - Romney picks Rubio as VP
    - Romney beats Obama and becomes President
    - After one year, we are ready to follow the British example and burn down the White House
    - We start to think of creative ways in which to interpret “high crimes and misdemeanors”
    - With Boehner and McConnell running Congress, we lose both (after winning the Senate this election) and they revert back to Democratic control

    Oh and Herman Cain has so much awesome…

  • wonkish1

    You may be willing to lie to yourself because you like Perry, but it doesn’t matter how much I like Perry I wont lie to myself when what I saw is what I saw. He had the worst performance of anybody up there by a large margin.

    Michelle Bachmann didn’t even do as bad as he did, but she’ll actually crash in the polls more tomorrow.

  • kabane52

    fine speaker. He’s not a great debater. A candidate does much more speaking than he does debating. If he sucked at speaking, then you’re right, he wouldn’t have a chance.

  • NeoKong

    Romney made no mistakes.
    Perry ….oy vay.

    Perry did not seem prepared.
    I like the guy but damn…..he needs to do better.

  • eugenio

    I will pack up and move to CHEE-lay.

  • Remington_Steele

    I never thought I’d trust Romney more than Perry on immigration, but after tonight the Governor of Texas is way more liberal than Romney on it! Subsidizing illegals and governing with heart over head and wallet sounds like a democrat.

  • rightwingmom52

    Satellite was out due to heavy rain for the first hour. We picked it back up with the healthcare discussion.

    Unfortunately, Romney delivered his answers in a way that made more sense than Perry. In Luntz’s focus group, Cain & Romney seemed to be the winners, and Gingrich did well. Several folks said they switched from Perry to somebody else. One participant said that for the first time Romney explained the difference in Romneycare & Obamacare in a way that she understood and could live with.

    I missed the entire immigration exchange, but last night I attended a tea party rally to show support for AL’s new immigration law and our state legislators. The phrase of the night was “rule of law” and folks pointing out that if the first thing someone does is enter the country illegally, why should we think they’ll do anything else according to the law? I discussed the Texas Dream Act with several folks, and one of the questions that kept coming up is what happens when those students get out of college. Where do they get a job afterward because they’re still illegal? I still like Perry, but I heard enough at the rally to realize that immigration is going to be a bigger issue for Perry than I thought.

  • runner12

    although the audio was initially awful and the word clouds were strange. As for the substance of the debate, I will agree that Cain won the debate. He was solid, confident, and witty.

    I think Perry and Romney both had highs and lows. Perry articulated his point better on SS and even on the in-state tuition question, but he bungled the flip-flop comment to Romney so badly it was embarassing. Romney at times looked visibly rattled and the rate of his speech became rapid and high-pitched.

    Both need to improve and I think both need to either quit attacking each other in debates or do so more effectively. Neither look comfortable doing so.

    I would recommend that Perry hire a debate coach. I do not think he is a bungler as much as I think that he does not know how to be himself in this setting. That being said, I would like to remind people that we are not voting for someone to be the Debater-in-Chief. We are voting for someone to lead this nation out of the pit Obama has dragged us into.

  • harlan

    had never sat on that couch, holding hands with Nancy Pelosi. He otherwise has the gravitas to be president.

    Meanwhile, I’m really disappointed in Perry. I had expected better.

  • Darin_H

    I’m still for Perry, but he’s got to up his game in these debates. He’s gotten worse in each one.

  • Whacker77

    I gave Perry a pass after the first debate and figured he’d get progrerssively better with each. Sadly, he’s gotten worse. In fact, the whole debate was so bad I turned it off after 45 minutes.

    Folks, the Republican field is a joke. If Mitt Romney is far and away the best candidate, we’ve got major problems. He’s a flip flopper with no core.

    Obama is a sure loser except we’re throwing the C and D team at him. I just don’t get it. I’m am terribly, terribly disappointed with what I’ve seen out of this crowd.

    Sorry, to be so negative, but this group is just not cutting it. It’s time to beg a big name to reconsider and enter the race. And I’m not talking about Palin either.

  • runner12

    As part of the program, they must begin the process of becoming a legal US citizen,

  • Marcus_Traianus

    Obama retires in Texas. Because that is the only place he can find a job and have low states taxes on his income. Bonus; in a moment of pure irony he also gets an exemption from “ObamaCare”.

  • http://lukos.com Ed54

    there won’t be any nationally televised debates against Obama during the general election.

    Wait .. what?

    Never mind.

  • sayoung80913

    were there any body blows landed here? Anything revealing, he stuttered on one response,so did Romney, so what? Debate comes out as a sum zero-no change in over all ratings or in the polls,but expect the media to talk ad nauseum about it. Nobody listens ,no one watches,no one cares about primary debates except political junkies who have already made up their mind. We’ll hear gnashing of teeth from the pundits over how a week or two from now Perry is still in the lead,maybe his numbers will drop,maybe they’ll rise-there is an ebb and flow to ever campaign cycle, but not a thing here that hurts Perry that didn’t also hurt Romney who has run perennially for office and lost all but one election. He’s good at talking in this things,but clearly,no one is buying what he is selling or he would have won more elections and would be the front runner right now as well. Let him talk,other’s actually DO -I’ll take the latter.BTW,Romney claimed he was a middle class American, actually told a voter in FLA he empathized with him because he was also unemployed-Romney is worth $250 million dollars! Imagine having the nerve to say that with a straight face! The man stalked off.

  • Tavern Keeper

    Perry is a states rights, and rule of law guy. REview SCOTUS decisions on this issue, as well as TX Supreme Court, and the veto-proof majority of the Texas leg. you begin the understand why, politically, Govern Perry signed it.

    But take a step beyond that. Perry believes in the benevolent use of states rights (NOT a constitutional issue). There is unimpeachable evidence of states interceding in matters of public health (mumps and measles, anyone?). Perry’s law he signed had waivers out the wazoo, and only applied to females in public schools. And there was included a VERY generous waiver to get out of the vaccine.

    Gardasil is a states rights case study in which a conservative politician adhered to the rule of law. What more could we legally want??

  • harlan

    instance?

  • Marcus_Traianus

    But Johnson? I though he was going pull out a bong any moment…or at least call someone “dude”.

  • Jim Tomasik

    If I remember right, didn’t McCain just about fold up at this point last time around?

    Mike Huckabee was far worse off in the polls than Cain is now about this time last go around. A lot of folks agreed with O’Really who said Huckabee would never get to 10% in the polls. One fellow swore he would not get out of Iowa. If it had not been for Fred Thompson, Huckabee would have beat McCain in SC and would have probably been the nominee.

    I would not count Cain out just yet.

    Cain or Perry…

  • porkandcheese

    Children do not move from Mexico by themselves. The so-called incentive is federal policy: you cannot prevent a child from attending public school based on their citizenship. Plyler v. Doe 1982. To illegal immigrants, that is free daycare and the real incentive. Not coming from Mexico so your child can pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to a state school with a tuition break.

    If a child attends at least three years of high school then graduates, why would you financially penalize them for their parents’ criminal activity, especially when they are pursuing citizenship as required in the TX Dream Act? These kids go on to contribute to society instead of collecting federal aid or committing a crime.

  • californiagold

    If electability against Obama is the number one issue among republican voters, then you all better start thinking seriously about someone other than Mitt Romney. Why ? Because a Mitt Romney nomination will all but ensure a third party run by someone like Donald Trump.

    While conventional wisdom is that conservatives will hold their nose and vote for Romney against Obama, don’t believe it. Romney is a big government liberal republican. Donald Trump has pretty much telegraphed his intentions if Romney were to be the nominee. A third party candidate who runs on fiscally conservative issues with credibility could very well take just enough support away from Romney and hand the election to Obama.

    Not only is this scenario possible, but very likely.

  • wonkish1

    In a week we’ll see in the polls that both Cain and Newt will have conceivable paths to the nomination.

  • Whacker77

    Look, no one is going to like these names I list, but this crowd is terrible.

    Jeb Bush
    Chris Christie
    Mitch Daniels
    Marco Rubio
    Haley Barbour
    Paul Ryan
    Mike Pence

    I can already hear the boos and hisses, but these guys are all conservatives. They may not be Tea Party, DeMint isn’t going to run and it’s probably best he shouldn’t. I know Erick is a big fan of Jeb.

    We’re running out of time and this group is even worse than the 2008 gang.

  • porkandcheese

    It’s stupid. A 9% national sales tax would really kill our economy. Other than that, all he’s done is run the KS Fed, blab on FOX and sell pizza.

  • carolina

    I think Perry should just be Perry. I think he is being overcoached to act different than he IS. His campaign advisors are going to get him defeated if they don’t recognize his inherent strenghts and keep trying to get him to act like smooth Romney – whom I totally distrust.
    - sigh -

  • runner12

    NT

  • sayoung80913

    Romney stumbled thru two or three answers and Perry landed a few zingers on him-even Bret Baier the moderator called him out on his flip flopping. Perry has never been a good debater,and yet he has also never lost ANY election either.Not too worried. Romney has only won one election and he’s run for office over and over- at some point people’s bs meters start going off with him and they move past him.It will be the same here. also Romney did very well in the last cycle’s debates and bombed in the primaries spectacularly. Look past the rhetoric to the record.

  • porkandcheese

    Jeb Bush – not conservative
    Chris Christie – ditto
    Mitch Daniels – bald, whipped and single issue
    Rubio – new
    Barbour – BBQ twang factor
    Ryan – single issue
    Pence – House

    I would have loved to see Thune instead of Santorum, but that’s it. Most ofthem sound better before they get in. That includes DeMint.

  • runner12

    I do not like the law, but it is amazing to me how few people actually realize that this is part of tge bill.

  • porkandcheese

    at who’s expense?

  • rightwingmom52

    our nominee is going to have to go head to head with Obama who knows how to say nothing and make people believe it. At least he made enough people believe it in 2008. We need to make sure we have somebody who can expose Obama for the empty suit he is and make people believe it as well as sell conservatism.

  • http://lukos.com Ed54

    the campaign was just beginning. Once it got going, Giuliani and Thompson both showed they were lousy campaigners, not ready for the national stage. Then they tanked. Same thing may be happening to Perry.

  • gekster

    Everyone was saying that they are given a subsidy.
    They arn’t given anything.
    They get no money from the state government.
    They must pay thier own way.
    It is just at the instate level.
    For everyone saying it was a tax subsidy was wrong, and probably havn’t even reaserched the bill.

  • Whacker77

    The idea Jeb is not conservative stands in stark contrast to his actual record in Florida. I get you hate his immigration policy, but I would like to actually win in 2012 rather than put forward a dumpster fire for a candidate.

  • porkandcheese

    Edgar Cayce was a good psychic, and you’re a clown.

  • eugenio

    Cain and Newt acquitted themselves very well tonight. They had a lot of help from the leaders. Bachmann embarrassed herself tonight. She can no longer be taken seriously. She kept beating a dead horse over the HPV issue. And this mommy track is old. She reminds us of her motherhood more than Kerry reminded us he served in Vietnam. Romney was plastic and phony. Perry couldn’t get out of the way of his own tongue. I hope Cain gets some momentum out of this and does well enough in the straw vote to move into the top tier.

  • runner12

    Next time, put a few breaks in your paragraph. More people will read your comment. Not trying to be snarky, I just think you make some very good points!

  • timkellogg

    I am afraid you’re right, but it’s so sad. Political experience is a liability, not an asset. Private-sector experience is an asset even a politician in the most pejorative sense of the word, like Romney, makes a point of bringing-up every chance he gets. I believe you are right that Cain can’t win because far too many among us meekly accept the fact that the kind of guy we NEED, rather than a slimy politician, has no chance. Lots of folks voted for Perot because he cultivated a (largely false) image of being exactly what Herman Cain IS. Think of the percentage Perot got the first time around and try to imagine if he hadn’t been a nut and a 3rd-party candidate! If we would nominate a guy like Cain, who represents everything frustrated people tired of typical politicians wasted their vote on Perot for- a successful businessman who knows how to fix things in the real world and doesn’t care to stick to “the way we’ve always done things”, how great would that be? Obviously, Perot didn’t understand or respect the Constitution and wasn’t the big private-sector guy he pretended to be, having gotten so much through government grants, but people vote for IMAGE and they voted for an IMAGE of Perot that much more closely resembles Cain than Perot…If the GOP got behind Cain and pushed that image, rather than the usual establishment line that we can’t trust a guy without a record in public office (as if we can trust politicians, whatever their records may be at the state level, to do the same on a national level, since they almost never do), Cain would DESTROY Obama in any debate, and if we got a few such candidates in Congress, too, we’d have hope to get term-limits and an actual chance to put an end to folks making careers out of pork-barrel politics. “Experienced, seasoned politicians” will NEVER do this for us. They’ll just continue to tell us we’re naive and stupid to want or expect any sort of dramatic change in Washington, no matter how badly we need such change.

  • carolina

    His campaign ‘advisors’ are trying to get him acting/debating just like Romney. This is undermining his confidence and drowning out his natural strengths. Perry should be encouraged to just be Perry, imo.

  • californiagold

    I don’t like Perry that much, but he would stand the best chance of defeating Obama. – particularly with his appeal among hispanic voters. With the exception of a few mistakes at the end of the debate, I thought Perry looked far better tonight than in previous debates.

    Romney looked like a slick politician willing to say anything. And if he is the nominee, he would all but ensure a third party run that would split the republican party and allow Obama to be reelected.

    Finally, the problem many of you have is your expectations of Rick Perry. He is what he is, a great retail politician, but a mediocre debater. Some here on Redstate raised expectations so high for a Perry candidacy that there is no way he will ever match those expectations. Rick Perry is not the second coming of Ronald Reagan, and Erick and others should stop expecting Perry to be Reagan.

    Having said that, it’s still Rick Perry’s nomination to lose.

  • AceInTX

    To his benefit, he says what he thinks and won’t apologize or try to tell you what you want to hear…but he’s stumbling and unsure of himself in his answers…and Romney keeps disarming him…Perry seems to keep losing his train of thought in his responses and he keeps muddling his final point…

    As I say….this is not characteristic of Perry. Maybe he’ll get over whatever is making him tentative. Who knows. but if he keeps spitting and sputtering the way he did tonight…he’s toast and we’re stuck with the Massachusetts Weather Vein.

  • Tavern Keeper
  • kabane52

    As has been pointed out several times, Ronald Reagan was slaughtered in his first debate with Mondale. George W. Bush, likewise, in his first debate with Kerry and two out of three debates with Gore. Plus, Obama’s a pretty cruddy debater as well.

    But my original contention wasn’t even that debates don’t matter. It was that while Governor Perry is not a great debater, this wasn’t a “trainwreck” by any means. A debate trainwreck is when you make a major gaffe. Perry didn’t. He stumbled a bit in the latter half of the debate, but most of the time answered questions clearly.

  • rkcon

    Those who won’t admit this need to put the kool-aid aside for a moment. His campaign has been a disaster, with one unforced error after the other, his take on the issues is shaky and he’s terrible on debates. Even his retail politics is the type that can work in Texas and a couple of other states but not nationwide.

    I don’t think is a big loss anyway. Perry is the GOP’s Obama. An empty suit. His conservatism is more of identity – the Texas swagger, the red meat, the rethoric – than of policy or principle. His record on corporate welfare is plainly terrible, Conservatives need to give up on these pro-business “conservatives”, btw, but that’s another different issue.

  • sayoung80913

    yeah right! two words-chronic campaigner,three more words-one term governor and lastly,flip flopper.Romney is good at talking but not too good at winning. A record is a record and if you consider a record of 0ne in five (or more) as creating confidence then I suppose that’s your opinion. Doesn’t matter how good of a game Romney talks-he can’t win the south in the primaries,he can’t win Iowa,is behind in Florida and is barely pulling even in Nevada-there is no path for him unless Perry drops out and that surely won’t be happening anytime soon.

  • Remington_Steele

    is your friend and my friend, but I don’t use it to defend an executive order on Gardasil.

    We obviously disagree about Perry’s benevolence when he subsidizes illegal alien’s kids in America making it cost my kids $100K more to attend a top university in Texas verses theirs.

  • http://lukos.com Ed54

    that the savior who jumps in the race at the last minute to rescue the party is nothing but a fantasy. In reality, running for President requires years of hard work in preparation. Late entrants are almost always unready for the rigors of a national campaign, no matter how attractive they look on the sidelines.

    Exhibit A: Perry.

  • wonkish1

    But currently the US government has only 4 huge taxes to use:

    1) Income
    2) Payroll
    3) Corporate
    4) Capital Gains

    I don’t know if I like the idea of the federal government getting a fifth to use. That has traditionally been off limits and reserved to states.

  • runner12

    will not be Gardasil or immigration. These are the two issues that people feel Perry stumbled on. The issue being debated will be big government vs. small government, this is an issue on which Perry shines.

    Don’t get me wrong, Perry needs serious professional help from a debate coach to help him be more himself and to relax.

    I was not all gung-ho on Perry from the outset for the same reason I am not going to throw him under the bus because he stuttered and bungled an exchange. My decision will come after careful deliberation and a close look at the records of the candidates.

  • rkcon

    If Christie enters the race, I think this could be over after Florida if not before. I think he could possibly score wins in every state except maybe Nevada and Iowa. Maybe.

    LOL at the “Christie is not conservative”. This from guys who supported the socialist administration of Bush till the very end and support Perry.

  • NeoKong

    I favor Perry but there were a few times when I groaned.
    (We) I went through this with McCain.
    I can’t pretend I don’t see weakness and hope for the best.

    Perry looked weak compared to Romney.
    I’m not a Romney fan, believe me but I cannot overlook this.

    He needs to do better.
    The polls are going to shift big time next week.

  • ThePoliticalHat

    The criterion I use to judge who “won” the debate is who demonstrated that they could win the debates with Obama.

    IMHO, only Romney and Gingrich have so far demonstrated that they could debate Obama and come out ahead, though Cain is quickly raising to that level.

    Gingrich has always been able to discuss complex issues in a simple way that talks to people rather then down to them. I would go so far to say that if Newt were the nominee and had a real “Lincoln-Douglas” styles debate, Newt would win the presidency.

    Romney may be acting like a typical slick candidate, but that combined with Obama’s proven failure would give Romney the win.

    Cain has authenticity without the spoiled snooty-ness of that Obama exudes. Cain is also doing well in Nevada (one of the first four early primary/caucus states in ’12).

    At the Clark County GOP central committee meeting (Clark county has Las Vegas and 72% of Nevada’s population), Cain got the biggest cheer of supporters just as loud if not louder then Paul (which is impressive considering that Paul’s cheerleading section always shows up to these things en mass). This is even more impressive if you consider that behind him in applause was Romney (who won Nevada last time and ought to do well again due to Nevada having a strong Mormon presence), and further back in support was Perry, who was recently endorsed by Nevada’s popular governor Brian Sandoval.

    As for the others, Santoroum came across as mean; Bachman solidified herself as being 2nd or 3rd tear; Ron Paul was Ron Paul; Huntsman same across as less of a Schmuck; and Johnson was a disappointment.

    Frankly, the next debate should only have Perry, Romney, Gingrich, Cain, and Paul (I include Paul because he does keep on polling well and excluding him is d***ish.

  • runner12

    A “pro-government” conservative?

  • carolina

    Perry needs a different kind of debate coaching – to help him bring out his inherent strengths and stop trying to coach him into another ‘fake’ like Romney.

  • http://whattoreadtoday.blogspot.com/ Paula

    I really don’t get why (for the most part)o the GOP candidates are giving Romney a pass while piling on Perry. Surely they must know that if Perry loses, Romney wins (with the possible exception of Bachmann). They’ve left Perry, an almost completely incompetent debater, to do all the dirty work. Are they all jockeying to be Romney’s VP?

    I also don’t get why Santorum came across (to Erick) as “angry” and a “jerk.” He didn’t seem that way to me at all. He seemed confident and passionate. Maybe it’s a cultural thing. In the South that reads as angry, while here in the Midwest, that’s how we express our convictions. <>

    Perry didn’t fare well at all in Frank Luntz’s post-game focus group. I didn’t hear one person say they thought Perry did well and several people said they were switching their support from Perry to Romney based on the debate.

    While Cain had some great applause lines, we can’t forget that he has NO FOREIGN POLICY. He says he’ll decide on a foreign policy when he gets to the White House and has all the intel at his disposal. Though no foreign policy is probably better than what we’ve got with Obama, the GOP can do much better than an “I’ll let you know when I figure it out” policy.

  • sayoung80913

    This law is wildly popular in Texas,it gets the KIDS off of the welfare roll that the state has to pay, and Bachmann showed she had no understanding of what she was talking about when she said tax payer subsidies were what paid for these KIDS to go to school-uh not exactly Michele, they get IN STATE RATES not free college you idiot. I find it funny that some rushed over here to say “I was a Perry fan,but alas,after this debate no more” LOL,riiiighhht. Come on over to Texas and see how the citizens of the state feel about this law, the legislature writes and passes these bills, the governor just signs them but then Michele Bachmann wants to drop kick kids over the border even though most were brought here as tiny babies and could hardly help it. She has flamed out spectacularly.

  • gekster

    They get NO money to go to collage.
    They HAVE to pay thier own way.
    It is at the instate rate for tuition.
    They have had to be in the state for three years.
    They have to apply for citizenship.
    But it is NOT costing taxpayer money.
    Why it is so hard for people not to see that.

  • runner12

    His record on AGW is awful. He may be fiscally conservative, but is he for smaller government? This is a question he must answer.

  • californiagold

    Contrary to what you stated, Mitt Romney is not the best candidate. He comes across as a flip flopping phony. The only reason he has support of 25% is due to the fact that there are nine candidates. Shrink the republican field and Romney probably doesn’t reach 40% in a two man race.

    In an election cycle where Obama is on the ropes, giving him an opponent like Mitt Romney is a gift. By the time Obama has spent his billion dollars exposing Romney’s flip flopping record, independents will be looking for an alternative.

  • rememberthealamo

    When he was making “controversial” statements, his numbers were great. Now that he’s been told to “tone it down” he’s losing steam. Bring back the old Rick Perry.

  • wonkish1

    Bachmann will be in the very low single digits. Santorum’s finished. And Perry will give several pts spread out to Romney, Cain, and Newt.

    Cain and Newt will be each polling in the 7-12 range by the end of the week which is a move up from their 4-9 range right now.

  • rkcon

    with no substance. I trust them about the same.

    But Romney:
    - has a larger change of beating Obama
    - will run a better administration

    If I were forced to pick one, and I hope I’m not, it’d be Romney.

  • windwaker24

    I, too, think if Romney wins, the Dems will win the House in 2014 (probably not the Senate, but the GOP will lose seats) but why are we burning down the White House????? Can’t we just primary him?

  • runner12

    Perry just needs to be himself.

  • westcoastpatriette

    it’s that much more disappointing that Perry’s answers are so weak. It sounds like most people don’t understand the intricacies of the bill and have a knee-jerk reaction to it because it is referred to as the Texas Dream Act. The casual observer associates it immediately with amnesty and, even if they understand that it does not subsidize the student directly, in their minds, it is still a benefit that out-of-state Americans do not qualify for.

    People are not in the mood to have compassion for illegals children right now and you can’t blame them. Perry’s defense that it was right for Texas is wearing thin. Can’t really figure out why he’s taking this strategy unless he’s pandering a little to the Mexican vote. Otherwise, it’s just plain foolish.

  • timkellogg

    If we quit supporting who we think can win and actually support who we think SHOULD win, Cain would do much better, but I think there are still a lot of us like porkandcheese (I have no guess as to the percentages) who won’t even bother to understand his good ideas because he’s not been in office. As far as I’m concerned, you know he hasn’t been corrupted yet because he hasn’t been in office. All the others absolutely have been corrupted by the system to one degree or another. We need to do something different. We don’t need more Bushes or
    Doles or Boehners or (God help us) Romneys in office. We need to send them all home, along with the even-worse dem politicians, so they can finally have to get real jobs.

  • LibertyWins

    Both are weak on Illegal Immigration and neither will effectively resolve this issue. Looks like that’s up to Congress to resolve unless they grow a pair. Securing the border is not enough. We need to send them home, they do not belong here period, they broke the law.

    Both will resolve our biggest issue, the economy. That’s all that matters at this point.

    Either way its a Win-Win for the GOP. Obama is going down in a landslide.

    Gingrich seems like VP material,the attack dog. He also will help Perry or Romney with the ways of Washington.

  • gekster

    You have an example.

  • timkellogg

    but doesn’t the 999 plan eliminate the payroll tax, as would the Fair Tax?

  • wonkish1

    Trust me they aren’t over coaching him. They work a specific strategy with Perry and they’ve done for a long time. The problem is that he’s not keeping his end up.

    Trust me he isn’t being over coached.

    They need to spend time throwing every question at him they can and try to get him to trip up, screw up, etc. so that he can get quicker on his feet. Prepared statement prep doesn’t work with people like Perry. They need to get comfortable.

  • rkcon

    Get out of here with your phony excuses dude. What’s wrong with his record on GW? He’s the governor of New Jersey.

    I trust him more to be for smaller government than any of the guys currently in the race (except Cain, Paul and Johnson). At least I know that with Christie what I see is what I get.

  • gherkin

    Full disclosure, I’m a Cain supporter, and I think Herman did an excellent job. I’ll vote for Cain if given the chance but realistically I imagine it will come down to Perry vs. Romney.

    That said, I have been following Perry’s ascension with interest, and he does seem to be getting worse with every debate. I was impressed initially that he didn’t back off of tough positions. He seems to be losing some of the backbone in the last two debates, though. I don’t know him well, but it looks to me like he needs to quit listening to his handlers.

    As a last aside, can we please get rid of Johnson (with kudos for his zinger), Huntsman, and Santorum, at this point? I’m getting really tired of seeing questions that I want to see answered by the guys/girl that actually have a shadow of a chance wasted on them. The “don’t ask don’t tell” question that went to Santorum comes immediately to mind. I’d like to see Paul go, too, but I get that he has a non-trivial core of support.

  • timkellogg

    but seriously, she SHOULD be ashamed of herself, but I don’t think she is…

  • rkcon

    Very telling you cant’ say the difference.

    Bushies are killing American conservatism.

  • runner12

    Jeb- nice guy, but he is a Bush and that is like handing O a second term
    Chris Christie- greaf on union-busting, holds several non-conservatjve views
    Mitch- already said he won’t run
    Rubio-great choice, wish he would run, but won’t
    Haley Barbour- maybe
    Ryan-good choice, but path from House would be a huge hurdle
    Pence- see Rubio

  • traversecityconservative

    that Herman Cain won’t get the nomination. Based on what evidence? Just because you keep saying it over and over again? Just because the media keeps saying it over and over again? I can’t wait until the primaries and certain people have egg on their face.

  • rightwingmom52

    I really don’t know that much about the process itself, but as I mentioned in another comment a while back, I want to know what checks and balances are in place to make sure the students follow through. It’s not enough to have just made application.

    gekster, I brought that up, but it doesn’t matter to many. They will not give on the fact that people are here illegally. We had several legal immigrants speak who refuse to give an inch on that point, regardless of the circumstances.

    We had 2 women speak about how their lives had been directly affected by illegal immigrants. One had her identity stolen years ago, and she talked about the horrendous struggles she’s had in fighting that. The thief had bought a house in her name, had credit cards, a car, several jobs, and was finally arrested about 6 months ago. This woman said she had spent 10,000 of her life fighting to get this straightened out. The IRS had seized $9600 from her family because of this mess which she still hasn’t recovered.

    The other woman was the daughter of a legal immigrant (her dad who retired from NASA a couple of years ago). Her sister-in-law was killed by a drunk driver who had a previous DUI and an open warrant for 5 years. He was illegal but was never picked up. When he got out on bond, he skipped out, is probably roaming around somewhere else in the U.S. and will most likely never pay for his crime.

    I realize these are emotional stories, but based on what I saw first-hand last night, people are fed up and are not going to compromise. We had about 150 people show up in the rain, after work, for an event that was thrown together via email, word of mouth and a little last minute advertising from local conservative radio hosts.

    Don’t shoot the messenger.

  • rkcon

    Too bad that a few years ago decided to stop talking about entitlement reform to start obsessing about gays and dogs, hence losing re-election by 16 points and becoming a joke. Otherwise he’d be a formidable candidate now, one I could support right away.

  • runner12

    His record on global warming is that he supports the Left’s assertions that it is man-caused. I see him doing little to undo the onerous EPA regulations.

    What has he done to shrink government in NJ? He has been great with the unions, but what else has he done?

  • Whacker77

    So you’re telling me Perry’s doing well? Come on. I was gald when he entered and thought I had a candidate, but he’s been awful. He can’t take a punch and he really can’t throw one well in a debate.

    We need to realize electing a President is not the same as a House member or Senator. Some can do it, but not all. Would you like to have Joe Walsh running.

    The current field is terrible and that includes Romney. I just saying the fact he looks the best show what a joke the other top contenders are. That’s unless you like Bachmann saying someone “got retarded”.

  • wonkish1

    Look Rick Perry can’t shake every person’s hand in America. Nor is his campaign ads going to win the election for him.

    He’s got to do it himself and how do you expect him to do that when he can’t open his mouth?

    It’s not us holding him up to be the next Reagan. At this stand point getting up to W.’s performance would be a huge improvement.

    I know it sucks, but there is a minimum level of speaking ability to win the White House and W. skirted that pretty close and if Perry doesn’t improve he wont be at that level.

  • http://www.AmericanThinker.com Hammer2008

    Perry came off so bad. In a previous debate response on in-state tuition Perry mentioned that they also had to be pursuing U.S. citizenship. I that’s true, tha should be a greater point, not his “compassionate conservative” tack.

    Romney had a few stuttering moments where he couldn’t get his initial thoughts out (I…I….I…..I…..), which was annoying. Romney was no better or worse than previous performances.

    I didn’t think it would come to this, but there’s now an opening for Herman Cain to go BIG (an ad touting the 6 million jobs his 9-9-9 plan would create?) or for Sarah Palin to come riding to the rescue.

    Perry needs to get a jobs plan out sooner than Obama’s jobs bill, which is becoming doubtful. Meanwhile Newt comes out with his own plan next week…

  • NeoKong

    We need to start culling the herd.

    Suggestion:
    If you can’t break ten percent in a few national polls…..well then…(ahem)….

  • silentcal2012

    This debate wa like the last two. Romney wins… Again. Erick’s cred is on th line now. He spun and pimped Golden Rick. Cant lie anymore.

  • dajeeps

    He gets stymied by the game. My impression of him is that is isn’t a gamer, and this whole thing with the debates is really just a joke. You can take the guy who looks most polished and you know is more of the same kind of warmed over old-school republican, or you can take the guy with the political management skills to get the job done. Nice hair, smooth talker, or a conservative who just gets down to business.

    One thing that might help Perry is not pay that much attention to the debate questions themselves, and do like Newt – answer what he wants to. He might be able to take some of the heat off the vaccinations issue, and to some extent the tuition issue, by pointing out that he’s running for Federal office, those are by their very nature prerogatives of the states and their legislatures, and would not interfere with the states in how they choose to deal with them if elected President. That just is not the place of the Federal gov’t and they are hardly relative to what kind of president he would make. Then he needs to go back to the things Americans seem to care about most right now- economic turn abound. That would be a great footing for him, and one I think he could be comfortable with.

  • runner12

    A. I am not a Bushie

    B. Neither is Perry

    C. You hurt yourself when you go over the top in attacking one candidate because you support another. You called Perry the GOP Obama. Really?

    Also, you did not say “free-market.” I wonder if Christie would fit your definition of engaging in corporate welfare? Have you looked it up? I know after this conversation, I will.

  • gekster

    They have to apply for citizenship.
    I would assume that once they passed that process, they would get one.

    On the other point, I don’t think that if they are ambitious enough to go to have graduated high school, and then go to collage and apply for citizenship, that they would find the need to steel someones identity.

  • californiagold

    The reason the two front runners were, and will continue to be, Rick Perry and Romney is due to money. Perry is a terrific fund raiser, and Romney is loaded with cash.

    Contrary to what many of you think, these debates will be forgotten in a few weeks, and by December and January the only thing that will matter will be the amount of money each candidate has raised. That’s why it will be either Perry or Romney as the nominee.

  • Tavern Keeper

    These candidates, whoever they be, need to forgo the necessity of “having a plan” and instead invest in making decisions based on a set of principles. The end-goal is not to solve the problem in any way possible, but rather to apply constitutional attributes to uncover the true way to proceed. Plans are nothing if they are not in line with the original intent of our founding document. Let’s ask ourselves, which candidates will make plans, and which ones will take action!

  • rightwingmom52

    A liberal viewpoint is a liberal viewpoint, regardless of where he’s from.

    From Forbes here

    From Gov. Christie’s own website – here

    Let me start there. One of the things that I?m announcing today is that there will be no new coal permitted in New Jersey. From this day forward any plans that anyone has regarding any type of coal-based generation of energy in New Jersey is over. We know that coal is a major source of CO2 emissions. We will no longer accept coal as a new source of power in the state and we will work to shut down older dirtier, peaker and intermediate plants that emit high greenhouse gases. We need to commit in New Jersey to making coal a part of our past. We?re going to work to make New Jersey number one in offshore wind production. Last year I signed the Offshore Wind Economic Development Act to provide financial assistance and tax credits to businesses that construct, manufacture, and assemble water access facilities that support offshore wind products. The DEP has completed the first of its kind, two-year baseline study that identifies optimal sites for offshore wind turbines. This study combined with the strong policies I?ve spoken about is going to be instrumental and has been instrumental at the Department of the Interior recognizing New Jersey in its Smart from the Start program as a wind energy area. That provides us the opportunity for expedited federal permitting in this area, and we?re going to try to take advantage of it. We?ve joined with the federal government and other East Coast states to establish the Atlantic Offshore Wind Energy Consortium to promote commercial wind development on the outer continental shelf. And we?ve accelerated the development of offshore wind projects by working closely with Interior and the Bureau of Energy Management Regulation and Enforcement to speed the implementation of 1100 MW of wind turbines. Since the call for interest last month we will be receiving applications for more than 3,000 MW of projects within the next two weeks.

    That’s a pretty liberal viewpoint.

  • westcoastpatriette

    one I have wondered about as well. I don’t understand how the state of Texas has the constitutional authority to allow an illegal to apply for citizenship, which is a qualification of the bill. This is a federal issue, and my understanding of the law is that deportation is the penalty if you are caught here illegally. So, I don’t understand how Texas is getting away with requiring them to apply for citizenship.

    As far as a SSN, I don’t think you get one of those unless you are a citizen.

  • rkcon

    Lots of worse things are called to other candidates, even in this thread. I don’t see your agitation. Heck, we even had a candidate calling the other Obamalite. Link for your protest? If there isn’t one, deal with it. Such is the life of a fanboy I guess.

    I didn’t call you a Bushie – I just said they keep hurting conservatism – but it’s interesting that you’d assume I did. LOL

    Of course I didn’t say free-market. That was exactly the point. It’s hilarious how you keep missing it. I am pro free-market so I’m against Pro-Business conservatives like Rick Perry. Of course, some ahem “conservatives” believe that the opposite of pro-business is pro-government, not understanding it’s basically the same.

  • rkcon

    That was the most amusing one.

    I don’t support anyone. I’m a free voice and I call things as I see them. Deal with it.

  • californiagold

    …but if Perry is running such a terrible campaign, then explain to me how he has been able to jump to the lead in just one month of being a candidate ? And how he leads in polls in Iowa, South Carolina, and Nevada ?

    Winning debates doesn’t necessarily mean winning elections. In 1984 Ronald Reagan had one of the worst debate performances in modern history against Mondale, yet won 49 states a few weeks later.

  • squeek71

    The payroll taxes would be eliminated.

  • wonkish1

    McCain was so broke that he used his contact list as collateral for a personal loan to put into the campaign. And that was after he was forced into making huge cutbacks in staff, consultants, and couldn’t afford a single ad.

    Romney and Giuliani raised serious money in 2008(even if it was Romney’s own money), but didn’t win.

    Clinton out-raised Obama through the vast majority of 06, 07.

    Forbes had more money than W.

    Clinton had only 4% in the polls at this time in 92 and had 0 money. And if it wasn’t for a well handled allegation of an affair, the 92 campaign would have ended with most folks not knowing who Clinton is.

  • rkcon

    Why don’t you answer the questions and keep moving goal posts.

    Christie withdraw New Jersey from the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, that’s his AGW record.

    I couldn’t care less about his opinion on ManMade GW vs non ManMade GW. That’s a scientific issue, not a political one. As long as he agrees with me when it comes to the role of government in this, I don’t give a darn.

    The problem of the American conservatism today is that many people don’t understand that conservatism is not a religion or a philosophy of live or an ideology; merely a philosophy of government. That’s why a guy like Perry can be labeled a conservative: he wears cowboy boots, prays in public, likes oil and fire guns, he’s one of us!

  • rkcon

    … he was so great with Gonzaga.

    The big league is the big league. Perry is good for the college game. That is all.

  • wonkish1

    I do believe once you’ve gotten rid of a tax its much easier to bring it back than it is to bring one that has never been a tax.

    Unless of course you make a particular tax unconstitutional. If you repealed the 16th amendment I’m up for a fair tax or any other type of tax policy that includes sales tax.

    I’m not saying that I don’t like the idea of a 9,9,9 plan, but I’m just weary of adding another possible tax method.

  • rightwingmom52

    of the entire citizenship process, but I do know it’s not that easy. My sister and her husband helped an employee of their small business through the entire process. It took hiring an immigration attorney, multiple trips to cities with immigration centers which were generally 3+ hours away from where they lived, mounds of paperwork that he would never have been able to navigate without their help, not to mention the loans they made to him to be able to hire the attorney and make the trips.

    I can’t imagine every one of these college students having the time or money to get through the entire process, and I struggle with the notion that they might get to jump ahead. I’m asking questions at this point because when I bring up what they did in Texas, I want to be prepared. So far, I haven’t been able to find these details or answers.

    As the saying goes, one bad apple…I agree it’s not likely the kids who made their way into college would be the ones to steal an identity, but the attitude I’m seeing from talking to people here in AL is one of no compromise on the issue. They want a hard line approach, and a lot of it is coming from legal immigrants who are involved in the process.

  • californiagold

    I encourage all of you to go back and look at the 1984 presidential debates between Reagan and Mondale. In one debate, Ronald Reagan looked so bad, and Mondale so good, that if the election were decided on debate points, Mondale would have won the election in a landslide. But as we all know, Reagan won the election is a landslide.

    Compare that to Mitt Romney….many of you continue to think Romney is a great debater who scores points on his opponents. That may be true, and then again, it may not be. But voters should not judge a candidate’s ability to lead the country by how quickly they can speak a sound bite. Because if they did, Walter Mondale would have been president.

  • http://lukos.com Ed54

    Perry jumped to the lead because of his reputation. Same as Giuliani and Thompson in ’08. How did that hold up?

  • wonkish1

    In the middle of a huge recovery.

    Also, Walter Mondale was dumb enough to the American people he was going to raise their taxes.

  • http://lukos.com Ed54

    Is anti-business. How’s that working out for the US lately?

  • LiveStronger

    Rick Perry raised taxes as a Texas state legislator in 1986. Then he became a tax-cutter.

    Perry supported increasing the access of illegal aliens to the instate tuition rate then opposed it.

    With regard to gardasil, even Perry admits that his original position was a mistake. Although the parents could opt their daughter out, it put the burden on parents to affirmatively say that their daughter was not getting the shot. The shot was for a vaccine that was designed to protect girls from an STD. Perry’s connection to Merck made his executive order suspicious.

  • rightwingmom52

    from the state senator who was at our rally and who introduced the AL bill and helped write it. When I asked if he thought the Texas Dream Act was a practical, reasonable approach to help the type of kids it does, he pointed out that they can’t get a SS# without citizenship and that they can’t get a job without a SS# I didn’t have an answer for what happens after they graduate or how they pay for tuition if they can’t work or get a loan.

  • runner12

    It is not simply an opinion, it crosses over into the way he governs. Our economy is in the toilet, one big driver of that is the onerous regulations of the EPA. There is a reason Cain listed it s the first thing he would eliminate. I have my doubts that Christie would do the same.

    I have a hard time understanding why you think I moved the goal posts. I think I stayed on topic fairly well.

    I will also add that I have a very clear understanding of what conservatism is and you sound like a liberal when describing those who support Perry. You act as if they are ignorant and do no thinking for themselves. It comes across as condescending and narrow-minded.

    After all, I have not called you a squish for supporting Christie, have I? I simply pointed out why I would not support him for President. I have no doubt that he is a good governor for NJ, but I just do not want him as President.

  • florida772

    I agree Cain won he was awesome at faith an freedom, but I still think Florida is Romney country

  • acat

    They just catch-and-release. I doubt, since they’ve stopped doing one part of their jobs, they’d be eager to do the other part, not accepting applications from illegals.

    See also my favourite Eric Flint quote, “Laws don’t go around on wheels enforcing themselves”.

    Mew

  • http://lukos.com Ed54

    And if Obama is in the middle of a huge recovery, he will be untouchable too, no matter how great a debater our nominee is.

    However, if the economy continues to suck, he will be very beatable. But ONLY by a solid candidate who can go toe to toe with him in debates.

  • LiveStronger

    Half the time, I couldn’t tell if he was making a statement or asking a question. He was the Republican equivalent of Cruz Bustamante. Which you have to be from California to understand.

  • rightwingmom52

    Took all of about 10 seconds to google Christie+AGW and go straight to the governor’s own website.

  • rkcon

    Ask GE, Iberdrola, Solyndra, GM, Bank of America or Goldman Sachs. And thousands of other businesses.

    As Coburn, Palin and Jeff Flake have been saying, it’s time for the government to stop picking (I was about to write pickens) winners and losers. Those who can’t get along with this idea need to join Obama’s forces and fight from there.

  • MikeG (Icythus)

    I agree with you, it seems pretty cut-and-dried to me too. Why people keep beating the drum on this is beyond me.

    This is a Texas issue. Texas gets to set the residency requirements for receiving in-state tuition rates at public colleges and universities in the state of Texas. If they want to say that Martians and red-heads qualify for in-state tuition, that’s their call.

    The key here is what you said: charging someone in-state tuition rates is not the same as subsidizing their education. Heck, out-of-state tuition rates are so high, they are basically a racket to milk affluent parents of every last possible dollar. Having been in college in the past few years, I see in-state tuition as a baseline, not a subsidized education break.

  • LiveStronger

    Romney is a polished fighter. And Perry has not seen the full weight of the liberal media yet.

    McCain didn’t see the viciousness of the New York Times and the left-wing “nut-roots” until after he got the nomination.

    If Perry can’t handle a debate among relatively friendly moderators and competitors, he is not ready for the left-wing spin machine.

    He’ll need a lot of money from Merck to come back from this.

  • acat

    The economy is going to continue to suck. The green shoots are a lie.

    It’s up to us to make sure our candidate doesn’t.

    Mew

  • rkcon

    Christie withdraw New Jersey from the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, that?s his AGW record.

    I couldn?t care less about his opinion on ManMade GW vs non ManMade GW. That?s a scientific issue, not a political one. As long as he agrees with me when it comes to the role of government in this, I don?t give a darn.

    Address these points if you can.

  • wonkish1

    I think Obama can be defeated quite easily by most candidates assuming you don’t make W. look like Winston Churchill.

  • westcoastpatriette

    It’s slipshod, slap-dap crap (when I’m flabbergasted I make up words and sayings). You have to twist yourself into a pretzel to make it work. Good job, Texas. I’m going to bed.

  • californiagold

    Obama broke all kinds of records for fund raising, even though Hillary had tons of cash. And John Edwards was able to finance his own campaign if needed. The point is, the three candidates with the most money were the most viable.

    On the republican side, McCain was broke early on, but by the time he won New Hampshire the money started rolling in – and McCain in 2008 , like Romney in 2011, was the choice of the establishment.

    For Cain to have a decent chance at becoming the nominee, he will need to show that he can fund raise with the big boys. So far, he hasn’t matched Romney or Perry on that score.

  • LiveStronger

    He helped both Marco Rubio (early endorsement, before even Newt Gingrich endorsed) and Rick Scott.

    He’s got some congressional endorsements there, too.

    If not for two-timing Charlie Crist endorsing McCain 3 days before the primary in 2008, Romney would have won Florida and possibly California on Super-Tuesday.

    2012 will be different. Romney’s planted the seeds. Harvest time is coming.

  • http://whattoreadtoday.blogspot.com/ Paula

    NT

  • runner12

    anything male-related. You are making yourself look very immature with your comments and you are making assumptions that are way off-base.

    I am against crony capitalism as much as the next person, but there is a difference between giving TARP money to a campaign donor like Obama did and creating incentives for businesses to come to your state. I am certain that Christie has done so in NJ. I might also add that he ran as a “pro-small business” candidate and won the election because of it.

    I am interested in honest debates on the merits and you have not made one single case for supporting Christie, other than you like him. You did not answer the questions on AGW nor whether Christie met your definition of crony capitalism. It is clear that trying to have rational debate with you is a hopeless task and a waste of my valuable time.

  • JSobieski

    and was crushed after that. It was in the second debate that Reagan used the “I won’t hold my opponent’s inexperience against him” line, and the rest (but especially Mondale) was history.

  • rkcon

    That basically states what I wrote: Chris Christie was the first governor to withdraw his state of the RGGI and he doesn’t believe in a government solution.

    To me, as a conservative, that’s a fairly good stance and record.

    I don’t see your point about his words. Are you a Paulist against any sort of environmental regulations at all, is that it? And even at a state level? That’s even more radical than Paul. Or anyone else I’ve ever hard for that matter. I’m really struggling to understand your point. If thats your position I’ll respect it but it’s an insanely extremist one.

  • onemovoter

    Bachmann showed complete ignorance on the issue of immigration and states rights. Shame though that most people who don’t follow politics that much or even TEA party folks that haven’t really read into constitutional powers.

    I’ve done quite a bit of research on the issue of immigration with respect to governmental powers between the state and federal. As others have mentioned there are also judicial rulings that have enforced certain laws.

    I did cringe tonight to Perry’s answer on this issue. He did answer it forcefully but didn’t explain it to the ignorant crowd, who ended up grumbling and a few boos. Here’s how I’d explain it:
    1. Texas constitutionally can’t deport illegals, it’s a federal power.
    2. Texas can’t detain them for breaking a federal law. ICE does.
    3. Texas can’t deny education and benefits because of federal mandates and rulings. This is an unfunded federal mandate.
    4. Legal and illegal alike pay state sales and user taxes. This means Texas is not subsidizing either.
    5. Texas gov passed a law that bridges a path for those wanting to be a US citizen just like others who come here on green cards for education.
    Lastly for me I’d say (although not PC) that those who are trying to dictate what the law should be in another state are no better than the liberal elites up in Washington dictating among all states. Everyone should take up the challenge to educate themselves on this immigration issue and the constitutional powers.

    It just pisses me off that the TEA party folks who want the federal gov to follow the constitution, end up showing they don’t know what the current constitution says on this issue.

  • rightwingmom52

    in the first place, that’s a non-issue.

  • californiagold

    …..Perry’s biggest problem in the primaries might be his immigration policy. But Perry would be no worse than Romney or Obama on that issue, as all three of them support some sort of amnesty type policies on immigration.

    But so did Reagan.

  • runner12

    Sorry, just could not resist.

  • MikeG (Icythus)

    Also, let’s face it, the individual illegals who this applies to (long-time residents, many who whom have been here a large part of their lives) are the ones who, in all likelihood, are going to receive amnesty of some form at one point or another. Assuming we secure the southern border and are able to seriously address the issue of those who are now here illegally, every plan I’ve seen put forward involves naturalizing long-term illegals one way or another, whether via amnesty, a path to citizenship, whatever. Like it or not, a lot of these people are here to stay.

    I think Gov. Perry and the Texas Legislature recognized this fact and decided that, when that day comes, they would rather have a bunch of new citizens with college degrees than a bunch of new citizens with no degrees and a history of low-wage jobs and welfare dependancy. It’s an imperfect yet practical solution, and I respect Gov. Perry for sticking to his guns on this and not pandering.

  • gekster

    1. 25 years ago he was a Democrat, and as such voted the party line.

    2. The Texas legislature proposed, then passed the Dream Act bill with 4 no votes. Perry went with the legislature and signrd.

    3. Perry thought it was a good idea, the Texas legislature, along with the people of Texas did not, and he dropped it before anyone got a shot, or any money paid.

    Lets put 2 & 3 together.
    2. Perry went with the will of the people and the legislature, and is getting dissed by you for that.

    3. Perry went against the will of the people and legislature, and is getting dissed by you for that.

    I guess that it would be too much to ask you to make up your mind.

    Instead of wasting bandwidth trying to diss Perry, why don’t you waste it promoting the candidate you might prefer.

  • rightwingmom52

    Erick quite clearly stated that Romney did much better than Perry tonight. What do you not find credible about that statement?

  • Flagstaff

    playing fast and loose with the truth.

    I agree completely that Perry’s signing of the Texas bill was in keeping with proper behavior for a border governor.

    Did not like the “fence is idiotic” statement from before, but in Fed Up, chapter 7, it is clear that Perry is 100% committed to border security, and also has decided not to fight the Feds for the right to secure it.

    I also didn’t think his “you don’t have a heart” comment was a good idea.

    The others were just all too anxious to misrepresent the situation for their own advantage.

    And Santorum did come off like a jerk.

  • gekster

    The legislature would have over riden it, as it had only 4 no votes.

  • rkcon

    He’s a failure. A disaster. Obama would wipe the floor with him. He struggles to articulate complete sentences. And he’s as conservative as an empty suit. He’s conservative because he says bombastic things, throws red meat and is from Texas.

    I don’t care that much about Christie and he isn’t even running. I wasn’t even the one who mentioned him. And I certainly didn’t mention him in these posts. That you make a post all about Christie is quite telling.

    I’ll finish how I started: Perry isn’t presidential material.

  • californiagold

    We must not lose track of why we want Obama defeated in 2012. Issues matter, and Romney isn’t that much better than Obama on a wide range of issues.

    If you don’t believe me, take a look at some of Romney’s court picks in Massachusetts.

  • septembergurl

    This was a very poorly run debate yet, for the reasons Erick mentions, also very interesting, paradoxically.

    The media had set this up as a Perry-Romney death-match (this is how they think) but what was truly striking was the emergence of the second tier into prominent roles. herman Cain, Newt Gingrich, huntsman, Johnson and Ron Paul were all at various times excellent — far more interesting, salient, original and profound than the much-hyped top two.

    Yes, romney was smooth and at times impressive, and Perry failed again to dominate despite his passion and sincerity — but they were a sideshow to the undercard.

    The big losers to me — Bachmann and Santorum, who tried to claw their way into the top tier and failed.

    The last question was annoying, but it pointed up some interesting dynamics among the candidates — the reservoir of affection for Gingrich, for example. And Huntsman still has the best ties.

  • rkcon

    nt

  • lightspeed

    who was never serious about running. He just loves the spotlight. It’ll be a cold day in hell before he actually runs. He probably has more skeletons in his closet than everyone else combined.

    As for Romney, I for one will hold my nose and vote for him against Obama if he gets the nomination. To do otherwise would be childish, stupid, and dangerous. Four more years of Obama will be a deathblow to our country. I don’t want Romney as our nominee, but someone’s going to have to beat him first. Perry ain’t it.

  • wonkish1

    Look it up Hillary was bringing in money in droves in the beginning it wasn’t until about August that Obama started raising more. Keep in mind that those candidates formed exploratory committees in 06 not 07.

    McCain was flush in the beginning of the election. He spent money on the best campaign offices, the best staffers, consultants, ad and pr firms, etc. The money stopped coming in as much in the middle of the year and he kept on spending extravagantly. He burned through it all, his campaign went broke and just about everything had to be cut. He then took out a private loan collateralized by his donor/contact list just to keep him in the race.

    He had no money when he flew to New Hampshire in Coach and started talking to people on the streets of I believe Manchester. It wasn’t until after he won New Hampshire did he even get enough money to get back to a barebones operation. And a couple weeks later he wins Super Tuesday and started getting money for the general election.

  • onemovoter

    I’ve seen Perry in interviews before he became a candidate. He was very relaxed and personable with specific answers. Since he’s jumped in, he’s been very hesitant in his answers and much stiffer. Perry just needs to be Perry, and once he did that, he’d walk away with the nomination. I just hope Perry fires whoever he has as his debate coaches and gets a word coach. Perry knows what he believes in, he’s just trying to convert it to non-Texas speak.

  • californiagold

    Erick was tougher on Perry tonight even though many think Perry had his best debate tonight.

    I think Erick should stop hoping for the next Ronald Reagan, and stop comparing Perry to Reagan.

  • rightwingmom52

    If you want to ignore Christie’s own words about banning new coal in NJ, go ahead.

    My record of comments here at redstate is quite clear as is runner12′s. To accuse either of us as being extremist is amusing at best. Radical and insanely extremist is insulting given our history here.

    However, I’ll indulge you long enough to let you know that I’m on record as currently supporting Cain and Perry (it’s early, so that may change), and not supporting Paul, but this is the end of our exchange as far as I’m concerned. I’ve got better things to do than be insulted by someone who claims that a governor who supports the same AGW as Algore is conservative.

  • californiagold

    where was I wrong with respect to Obama raising record amounts of cash ? Before the Oprah interview or after ?

  • gekster

    25 years ago is a long time.
    And AG at that time wasn’t the kook he is today.
    Part of AGs’ platform in 1988.

    from wiki:
    After announcing that he would run, Gore ran his campaign as “a Southern centrist, [who] opposed federal funding for abortion. He favored a moment of silence for prayer in the schools and voted against banning the interstate sale of handguns.”

    Like I said, not the AG of today.
    Go get some education, and then come back with something real.

    (and you didn’t answer my question on how Perry flip-floppped.)
    If you did, I didn’t catch it.

  • lightspeed

    …because they didn’t like the current field of candidates, especially Mitt. I was one of them. Perry has not met expectations. His performance in the debate tonight was pathetic. He stumbled through many answers so badly that half the time I wasn’t sure what he was saying. He was badly unprepared and he showed no passion or energy. People liked the IDEA of Perry. The reality is now sinking in. The impression people will have of him after this debate is he is George W. Bush without the brains or charisma. Does that sound like a winner in 2012 to you?

  • californiagold

    …but if you think Trump has no appeal to the tea party crowd, you are wrong. It might not even be Trump who runs, but whoever it is, could take a significant junk of support away from Romney.

  • californiagold

    The campaign has just started, and Perry will still lead in the polls tomorrow. You watch.

  • rightwingmom52

    …

  • wonkish1

    But it was about August that Obama started beating Clinton in fundraising. Also Clinton had a huge treasure chest going into the race left over from her senate race.

    But I am positive that McCain was all but broke when he got on the plane for New Hampshire the few days before that race. And if wasn’t for the Union Leader(NH conservative newspaper) endorsement, McCain would have finished in the bottom of New Hampshire.

  • ajdx3

    and hemorrhaging support faster than Obama spends money. He is not the second coming of Ronald Reagan, and the faster you can accept this, the better for our nominee. The more time we spend talking about vaccines and giving free education to illegal aliens, the less time we spend talking about the ONLY issue that matters: JOBS JOBS JOBS. It’s still the economy stupid! If conservatives blow this election they have no one to blame but themselves.

  • californiagold

    Obama takes the best republican issue off the table if Romney is the nominee,

  • rkcon

    n/t

  • onemovoter

    and state constitutional powers.

    The state of Texas doesn’t do the citizenship application for the illegal, they expect the illegal child to apply for it at the federal level. Once they have done so, the paperwork is shown to the state so they know the illegal is put at the end of the line behind everyone else wanting to get citizenship.

    Also Texas constitutionally does not have the power to deport any illegals that are in their state because that is a federal “crime”. It’s also why they can’t detain illegals for any decent amount of time in jail unless they have committed state level crimes. Even then we’ve all seen how long they stay in jail. Texas’ problem is that ICE is not deporting those who aren’t criminals. If ICE was, Texas wouldn’t need this law in the first place.

    Does all that information explain it better? I’m trying to educate on this because so many are confused on constitutional powers.

  • californiagold

    n/t

  • rightwingmom52

    He said Cain has a lousy staff. For whatever that’s worth.

    I’m on the Cain train, and I hear a lot of local folks saying they hope he gains some traction. Maybe he will after this debate.

  • Flagstaff

    makes it pretty clear that Perry is solidly in favor of border security and against illegal immigration.

  • victrola

    The GOP was completely ready to give Perry the nomination, but after the last few debates, I think Dubya was a better debater.

    Perry is simply not ready for prime time, he looked like a third tier candidate at the debate. All he throws out are bumper sticker slogans.

    His answer that anyone who would oppose subsidized college tuition for illegal immigrants “doesn’t have a heart” means I’ll be looking elsewhere for my vote in the GOP primary.

  • gekster

    Tell me about his f/f.

  • ajdx3

    and jobs. As much as we hate Obamacare, that’s not what is going to drive independents and Reagan Democrats to vote for the Republican nominee.

  • wonkish1

    I’m proving my point that money whoever has the most money hasn’t been that great of a decider of primaries or elections.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Thanks for trying, but no, that doesn’t explain it better.

    I think I am pretty clear on the differences between state and federal powers. My point is that I do not think it is standard protocol for someone who is here illegally to apply for citizenship. I understand that the student has to apply for citizenship through the feds but on what legal grounds if you are here illegally? None that I know of. And that is what I meant about Texas’ requirement that they apply for citizenship–an illegal has no legal grounds to apply. Get it?

  • gekster

    I’m glad to see another with eyes wide open.

  • Common_Cents

    Next week in Iowa. Wonder if that will get him some traction. He might need an endorsement from a Palin to get going.

    If Perry fizzles, Palin will get in, otherwise I don’t see her getting in. She is stalling to see if there will be an opportunity.

    If gingrich survives the next cut where he’ll get more face time in debates and media, he is even money to win.

  • LibertyWins

    is not an immigration issue year.

    2012 will entirely be about the economy and perhaps to a much lesser extent foreign policy.

    Perry just has to overcome Romney, not a tall order if he gets on the ball.

  • wonkish1

    For even a shot in he!! at winning would be the Union Leader endorsement.

    I should point out that the only positive thing the editor has said about any of the candidates was directed at Gingrich when he was asked, “Are there any of the current candidates that you are leaning to?”

    I’m hoping the media covers Newt’s contract next week. He’s likely to lose, but I’m betting their are going to be some really great, original ideas in their for the future general election regardless of who takes the nomination.

  • http://itsonlywords55.wordpress.com itsonlywords

    But in Washington, in-state tuition does not cover the full cost of an education at one of our universities. So if illegal immigrants were allowed to attend at in-state rates, the taxpayers would be subsidizing his/her education. Yes, it would be subsidized at the same rate as for legal State residents but … still a taxpayer subsidy.

  • gekster

    they have to pay thier own way.
    Now I admit I don’t know if they can qualify for a scholorship or not.

  • onemovoter

    So my question then would be, how does one get the paperwork to start the citizen process if you aren’t here to get it? I do remember reading about needing to have a sponsor, such as a relative or business. I’m guessing the state would fill that spot as well. One thing though is that all non-citizens have grounds to apply for citizenship according to federal law, no matter your status.

    I have to continue reading through the mounds of federal immigration law. Of what I’ve read, it’s like trying to read a dyslexic lawyer who had a bad night. Much of it is contradictory with many different terms, while some of it seems to dictate what the states have to do with their laws, which to me is unconstitutional.

    The way I’d put it to your TEA party friends is this. As Governor, you don’t have the constitutional power to deport the illegals, you don’t have the power to jail them, you turn the ones you find over to ICE, which dumps them back into your state. You do know that with sales and user taxes the illegals are paying into the system. Federal law and rulings mandate you can’t discriminate against a person’s legal status with education….. So what do you do? Seriously, what do you do?

  • cjf99b

    Someone needs to address this. Romney, Backman and Santorum are pulling DNC tactics should called on it. What the hell do any of those 3 know about border security? Its good for Perry to be exposed to DNC type attacks in case he is the nominee, but when our cantidates consistently show ignorance it needs to be addressed. If they are going to pile on, the should get facts straight before we define our party as anti-vaccine and unnecessarily alienate Hispanics.
    If Perry’s going to win the nomination he needs to be able to explain
    his positions better. Then again, this may be strategery to differentiate himself from the hardcore right image. Besides, it only makes him look reasonable as more people learn that a full blown fence is unrealistic and in-state tuition is not a subsidy or magnet. (Who bases their decision to immigrate to TX so their kid may eventually end up the 1% that actually qualify to pay their own way to college) At the same time, it is risky and not his best performance. I’m starting to think what I heard about him having back pain from his surgery may be true.

  • onemovoter

    He kept pissing me off with lying about Perry and what was written in his book. Then Romney lied about his own record and what he’s said in the past and in Romney’s book.

    Then Romney continued in the after debate interview. Romney needs to be called out on this crap.

  • Common_Cents

    the most from those that did answer when asked who would they pick for their VP.

  • Common_Cents

    Neighbors two dogs created more shovel ready jobs than obama.

  • cjf99b

    You can disagree with the state if Texas but Texas has every right to make the decision on their policy of in-state tuition. We are required by law to send these kids to public school. If they have lived in Texas for 3 years, graduate from TX high school and are accepted to college, they qualify for in-state tuition. How hard is that to understand?

  • onemovoter

    Perry in this race for awhile. Quite a few picked up on that and was turned off like you were. I do see that hurting him along with not explaining the immigration tuition issue again.

    I have donated to the Cain campaign before and will again if he can keep up with the others. I know Cain would be in the lead if he had the political experience and connections like Perry has. If I could merge Cain and Perry, we’d have another Reagan.

  • perry4prez

    NT

  • wonkish1

    You think Bloomberg would run as 3rd party with Romney in the race.

    No offense, but clearly you can’t be that bright because the worst name you could post on here with “perry4prez” as your screen-name.

    That is the one name that actually would scare people away from someone like Perry.

    Thank god that nanny state $#!%head has absolutely 0 plans to run.

  • perry4prez

    Say that again! The way we decide on a candidate should NOT be to compile a check list and say “I agree with Romney on 80% of the issues and Perry on 75%, so I’m supporting Romney.” Instead, it should be to look at FIRST PRINCIPLES. Does the candidate revere the Constitution? Does he live a virtuous life? Is he a family man? Does he worship God? Does he believe in limited government?

    I’ll be the first to say that Perry had a poor showing the debate tonight. He got tongue-tied when he had the chance to deliver a knockout blow to Romney on flip-flopping. But this isn’t a debate tournament – there have been plenty of other candidates who have been poor debaters but have ultimately won their elections (George Bush, anyone)?

  • wonkish1

    Going into this debate I believed that everybody up there would likely beat Obama except for maybe Bachmann.

    But that debate performance by Perry was soooo bad. Looking at the part when Perry went after Romney for being a flip flopper, I’ve seen somebody stoned out of their gourd that have been able to stick to a thought better.

    This goes beyond just the debates. What about when he’s on the Sunday round-tables? Do we have to sit there petrified that this might be the morning he blows his candidacy? What about the unbelievably soft ball game of late night talk shows, do we have to worry about him all of sudden bumbling like an idiot?

    Now I’m willing to sit back and wait and see if his debate performances get better. His first 3 were each worse than the last, but its still only 3 of them. Its not like Cain started off well and he just won the last one.

    But I will tell you 1 thing. If this does not get better I’m not going to count on someone that can only deliver prepared remarks(professional reader), shake hands, and release ads all the while getting destroyed in the debates and hammered by the media where he can’t even mount a reasonable defense.

    At this standpoint he’s making W. look like Winston Churchill. Given how bad he’s blundered if he doesn’t rise to at least W.’s level, I’m sorry I can’t support him through the primaries.

    And this is coming from someone that has stayed out of weighing in on the candidates so far.

  • perry4prez

    that Perry has without question the best record on JOBS JOBS JOBS, right?

  • perry4prez

    @victrola, I actually agree with you and think that’s a terrific way of summarizing tonight’s debate. I support Governor Perry, but he missed a chance to knock Romney out.

    But please remember, the best receivers miss a LOT of passes. They’re remembered for their completions, not the ones they miss. Same in baseball, remember that Babe Ruth had a very high number of strikeouts but he’s remembered for the home runs. You don’t win the prize if you don’t take risks. So I’d urge you not to abandon Perry yet.

  • Kyle-MI

    We are getting caught in side issues such as Gardisil, immigration and SS, and we are loosing sight of the big issue, the economy.

    We need someone who will:
    1. cut spending
    2. reduce or freeze regulations
    3. increase domestically produced energy, and
    4. repeal Obamacare.

    Maybe the only other important issue that has not been asked is judicial appointments.

    Either Romney or Perry (and most other GOP candidate) will be fine on these issues.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    I remember sitting through Bush debates with intelligent friends who were slightly left of center, but willing to think about Bush and then watching their vote solidify for Gore right before my eyes.

    Maybe it’s time to look at Newt again, sigh.

  • wonkish1

    Both of them will see a bump up in the polls. This next week and there is still plenty of time left for either of those 2 to pull off a win or for Perry to learn how to talk comfortably.

  • davesinsanantonio

    more than half of any “debate” like last night’s anyway. Plus, most people make up their minds on a person’s records and from listening to them actually “speak” on a subject for longer than a “sound bite” length of time. Perry is good on the stump, and has a good to very good fiscal record, and Texas has the statistics to back that up. So, I don’t believe that the primary elections are over and done with yet. Oh, wait! They haven’t even started. Maybe there is still a chance for him.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    Romney apparently won the Luntz group.

    It’s a small sample, but it’s not insignificant.

    My overall take from reading various takes is that the winners were:
    Cain
    Gingrich
    Romney
    Palin (because the door isn’t shut)

    Perry the big loser, of course.

  • popster

    session a debate? Some of the questions were good, some of the answers were statements, all in all it came off as a ******* contest.

  • wonkish1

    nt

  • peg_c

    in 2008. We are seeing the exact same scenario play out with Perry. Do GOP consultants ever learn?? They ruin every genuine candidate. They can’t ruin Mitt – guess why?

  • wonkish1

    Palin didn’t have a problem with ability to speak in debates, interviews, etc.

    She did have some problems with what she was told to say.

    There is a big difference. The first is a problem in comfort and ability to focus. The second is one of word choice.

    Its the how vs. the what.

    While Palin needed to be coached on what this bill is, that bill is, what country has a problem here vs. over there, etc.

    Perry needs to be coached on his ability to think on his feet. And if your suggesting he doesn’t get that coaching, you might as well just throw in the towel right now because he isn’t winning anything like this.

    And how that gets done is you put him in a room and ask him anything and everything and do your best to knock him off his focus. Throw in oddball personal questions anything just get him uncomfortable as often as you can until he gets used to it and is able to keep his focus while he’s uncomfortable.

  • jedison

    I think it is looking like, at least so far, that the “idea” of Rick Perry has been overshadowing the “reality” of Rick Perry –at least for me. I was leaning toward him, however, with each debate he has shown that he is either incapable of adequately communicating his positions and beliefs, or he just doesn’t care enough to prepare in advance.

    I have followed RedState for a while, though I am new to commenting, and I have read some excellent explanations and defenses of Perry’s policies and philosophies by RedStaters, but you have to wonder if RedStaters who don’t work for the Perry campaign can do this, why can’t Rick Perry?

    I understand he is not known as a great debater, but this is the big leagues, and the hits he is taking in these debates are just a preview of what he is going to face in the general. Obama & Company are going to pull no punches, and he can’t stand next to Obama and stumble or rely on “Lets get America working again.”

    He isn’t toast yet (Politico I am talking to you) but he needs to step it up.

  • peg_c

    He has the same disdain and contempt for citizens that 0bama has. He HATES the Tea Party. Christie on Muslims is purely unacceptable to me. Refused to join the fight against 0bamaCare and will not speak out against the Ground Zero Mosque.

    He should stay in NJ. There would be riots in the conservative base if Christie jumped in. And because of him, Coulter jumped the shark this past year.

  • gumbeaux

    Erick, I could not agree with your more. The one upmanship between Perry and Romney was a total waste of valuable time and a big distraction from the rest of the candidates. Based on last night, I would not support either of them for dog catcher if this is the way they are going to spend the rest of their campaigns. They need to concentrate on issues and answer the damn questions they were asked. We need to know who will address the problems and get us back on track as a nation. Petty bickering is not going to do anything for us. We need to keep the Socialist Media from picking our candidate like they did with McCain, a loser. Michelle is not an idiot, but a good effort was made to make her look like one. I really liked Herman and Dr Paul. Neither of them bought into the games played by Romney and Perry.

  • davesinsanantonio

    In a free market, the more prosperous people you have working at something the more jobs are created. So, if you want a job, go get one. The problem is the progressives of both parties have been following policies that stifle the free market, and in the case of the Dims, they are actually trying their hardest to kill the free market. So, what we need to do is elect conservatives to all levels of government who will dismantle the anti-free market regulations and laws, including bad or cumbersome tax laws, and push free market principles and laws, and the economy will create all the jobs you or anyone else could want. Also, the more educated the workforce, the more prosperous all of us are. The truly educated, not those who just “go to school” will actually help create jobs for others by starting companies or improving existing companies. Just because I have a job does not mean I cheated you out of it. Just because an illegal immigrant has a job doesn’t mean you could qualify for it.

    As for your “discounted college classes” would you object to them attending state universities if they paid out of state tuition? What about attending private universities?

  • davesinsanantonio

    that the lap-dog media seem to either love them or have ordained them as the eventual candidates. That is what they did with McPain in the Neck, before they started savaging him and Palin. If the Libs in the media aren’t trying to tear them down now, they will in the future, and their “the dog didn’t bark” lack of attacks says they think Obummer can beat either one of them. The fact that they are attacking Perry at every opportunity this early tells me they really fear him.

  • nepanyrush

    They are not “side issues” while the big issue is the economy. They are an integral part of the economic issue. SS is taking up vast amounts of the revenues. Illegal immigrants are taking jobs, and now even getting free education and in-state tuition. And the social security is a big economic issue for seniors or those about to become seniors.

    I am disappointed that after three debates, Perry cannot give a fluent response on the debate stage to this issue of social security. I like Perry’s position and have supported it in blogs. But it seems like he is given softballs to give a coherent, succinct answer and keeps muddling it. I fear that Obama will eat him alive on this one issue.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    In this case anyway. So thank you. That was part of my intent,

    Oh and here is a prediction. Stick to the subject at hand and skip the ad hominems. Otherwise, I am seeing there won’t be longevity in your presence here.

  • nepanyrush

    If Perry cannot convincingly, succinctly, and fluently call out Romney’s and other’s distortions on the debate stage, on issues on which Perry should be an expert (his own book, Romney’s book, Gardasil, flip-flops, social security), then how in the world will he fare on his feet against the lies and straw-men creations of Obama? I was very surprised how easily Romney deflected Perry’s criticisms and seemed to disarm Perry.

  • rulken

    I don’t trust either one,
    The winners are still Bachmann and Cain, although Gingrich was very conceive in his answers, and continues to prove that he has as much, or more to bring to the table as anyone.
    I have to also add that Rick Santorum continues to polish his statements and is not to count out either.
    Tonight Perry proved to everyone that he doesn’t mind spending our tax dollars on Illegal immigrants, and has (even if unintentionally) built a magnet for the illegals to come here. Yup, he pretty much talked himself out of any presidency chances here tonight.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    Sheesh- it was a metaphor for the level of frustration we will experience.

    Romney, Boehner, McConnell? I can’t think of a better establishment trifecta. We will get at least one excuse a day as to why things can’t be done. They will squander any good faith the people had in electing them. The government will then revert back to Democrats.

    Thinking about this further, it may be one of the signs for the Apocalypse.

  • nepanyrush

    Reagan looked very bad in the first debate and everyone was wondering if he was too old and had lost it. He came back great in the next two debates.

    Perry has yet to have a good debate and keeps missing slow-pitch softballs on his areas of expertise, or given multiple opportunities to hit the pitch and keeps stepping out of the batter’s box or getting distracted. I am not confident at this point in time that Perry will improve his debate performance nor hold his own against someone like Obama who comfortably lies and obfuscates and creates straw-men arguments.

  • keysconservative

    Palin. After Perry jumped in many said Palin would have no shot. Now that the bloom is coming off the rose the door is open once again. Romney and Perry continue to bloody each other and the rest of the group are holding their ground, except for Bachmann, who is fading fast.

  • rulken

    Perry shot himself in the foot tonight! He publicly announced, that he feels that Illegal immigrants, are more deserving than legal citizens to the Texas State colleges. Period, end of candidacy! He also publicly said, that he doesn’t think, that a fence is a good idea.
    I mean,,, how much more do you have to hear?!

  • atillathehun

    My dream ticket has been altered. Started out thinking Palin/Bachmann and now would love to see Herman and Newt. Electability is Herman’s strength as well as his command of what to do and what not to do. He speaks with a singlness of purpose that cannot be denied. He should be at the top of our list and Perry, in my view, needs to back out. The instate tuition is unacceptable in any venue.

  • runner12

    I thought that maybe our friend rkcon was just a passionate supporter of Christie, but maybe even that is giving him/her too much credit.

    The behavior seems rather trollish, so I choose to ignore it.

  • rulken

    The kids go to college, and the rest of the family stays here, for a free ride on our Nichole? Nope, will not fly.

  • BigRedConservative

    Christie is not an out-of-touch elitist like Obama. He doesn’t even come close. He went to a public school, got into college on his own merit, worked his way up through the strata of the NJ legal system and became a damn-good Governor. He cuts government, he fights unions, he cuts taxes, he defends liberty. He embodies the Republican party.

    As for the fact that he appointed a Muslim to the NJ Superior Court judge-if you oppose that for no other reason than his religion, you are crazy.

    Christie will run for President-in 2016. I’m looking forward to it.

  • rulken

    What part of “Illegal” don’t you understand?
    Get out of our country, and go get in line like, all the rest of those that want to come here “LEGALLY”.
    It’s really simple, stop trying to justify illegal behavior!

  • rulken

    I agree! H. Cain is as bright and as articulate as anyone up there.
    I have had him as one of my favorites from the start.
    I think we need to look for personal integrity, and Herman Cain and M. Bachmann have had my ear from the git-go!

  • cdthat

    Where did you learn to count? Romney ran against Ted Kennedy once and lost (0-1). He then ran for Governor and won (1-1) he chose not to run for re-election. He then ran for the Republican nomination and lost (1-2). What other races has he been in?

    I find it hard to understand what everyone on this site has against Romney. He governed in the most liberal state in the country and pulled them to the right. What is wrong with that. Romneycare as you like to call it was going to pass the legislature with or without his blessing and there were enough votes to override a veto, he did what he could to make it more acceptable. Again, what is wrong with that? (See comments above regarding Gardasil and Rick Perry)

    I have family members that live in California, in 2008 during the primary campaign he was in California for a campaign event but
    interrupted his plans to go help the people in San Diego with the wild fires. He was out there with his sons digging trenches to keep the fire away from houses, helping families save their valuables and never once asked if they were going to vote for him. And this in a state that no Republican has won since 1984.

    Unless you are Anti-Mormon what other reason is there to be so Anti-Romney? He may not be the perfect candidate, but he isn’t the RINO that I keep reading about on this site.

    Do I agree with everything he has said? Absolutely not. Do I agree with him 80% of the time? Probably. And as Ronald Reagan said “A person who you agree with 80% of the time is your ally, not a 20% traitor.”

  • dalebret

    Yes, I’m logged in.
    Erik E watched a totally different debate than I did. His whining is not helpful, his credibility went down further, in my book. He should get his audio fixed and his head out in the fresh air. I have liked his objective and balanced analyses but something has gone wrong; now he acts like his opinions are sacrosanct, not merely one informed person’s opinion. If his view of the debate is an indicator of how he slants political events these days, I’ve lost a valued source of information.

  • http://www.editedforbias.com editedforbias

    I do not see in-state tuition as a subsidy. It is a discount to keep you in that state and a recognition of the taxes you have paid within thte state to support the university whether you attend or not (assuming these families of illeglas are paying taxes…may be a leap) The only argument is really from out of state students who are asked to cover this cost through much higher rates.

    The argument that in-state tuition of 5k versus out of state of 20k gives them a subsidy assumes that 20k is the actual cost of education. I see it more as 20k a year is a rip off . I am not in the system so I do not know, but I would love to understand their finances and see how much is paid by the state and how much is from tuition.

    In either case, they tried to portray it a a free ride and it is not. I agree with both sides however. It can be used as an attraction for illegals to settle in Texas and we should be moving away from attracting more illegals. But it is also a recognition that the problem is here, the Feds are doing nothing, and the states have to address the issue of crime and low wage workers within this community.

    What I liked about the debate is they actually talked about the issue and explained their points of view. Pretty rare.

  • porkandcheese

    We have talked about Gardasil, something that had an opt out and was never implemented, in all three debates but never get around to Romneycare. Small wonder Romney looks so good. He gets to skate on his record if not outright lie like he did with his support for Race To the Top, and nobody says anything.

  • groverc

    He just isn’t coming off smart enough. When Rick Perry looks like he has more to hide than Mitt Romney — when he doesn’t — then debating is simply beyond him. Great governor — go back to Texas.
    Romney disgusts me with that “help the middle class” tactic. I believe there are only two honest people up there on that stage in terms of speaking their true minds and hearts, and not soundbites: Paul and Cain, and neither are electable. Santorum is probably honest in his positions but he’s so confused about what image to project it’s depressing. Johnson may be honest in his views, but he’s so smug about them that America would grow to hate him by Election Day.
    And these debate formats are ridiculous. Moderators challenging candidates with “he said/she said about you . . . what do you say to THAT?” People in stained flannel shirts with their wide-angle-lensed faces pressed up against computer cameras asking questions.
    This atmosphere could demean even Jim DeMint, the most worthy Republican for President there is.

  • porkandcheese

    He said the children of illegals should not be penalized for their parents’ crime. They are required to attend school up till high school. Many drop out to work menial jobs or become drains on the system.

    As someone married to a Canadian, I can assure you the naturalization process is lengthy and expensive. If they were to wait until the process was completed, it would delay their educations and deter them from continuing. This keeps them on track by giving the same opportunities as other students who attended three years in a Texas school and graduated. I see no preferential treatment. It’s fair and equal, not to mention what Texans wanted to do.

  • http://www.editedforbias.com editedforbias

    For VP or Secritary of Commerce. At this point, some of these folks are trying to stay in enough to set part of the agenda and position themselves for office. That stage of nine could easily fill a cabinet that we would be proud of (in the right roles). I think they did a decent job of explaining their views and differences, when not asked by the hosts to beat up on each other.

    I disagree with the debate was a disaster. I think Eric is falling into his insiders mode a bit here. The questions from America were more direct and on issue then those inside baseball, he said you said questions that the media puts forth. I like tha tag cloud because it quickly shows the power and volume of certain issues today. Probably more questions used in that cloud than the last 90 polls combined.

    For a supposed Tea Party, power of the people guy, this review sounded almost David Brooks. I expected better.

  • gumbi5

    but I’m going to stick with Bachmann. I really don’t like Cain’s 9-9-9 plan, which under a Democratic Congressional majority could be transformed into a nightmare. Right now Dems want a VAT, which is a form of hidden sales tax and for any Republican to hand them a vehicle toward that goal without removing the income tax is a no-go for me.

  • renl57

    Remember October 1980? Reagan and President Carter were roughly evenly matched in the debates. Then Reagan hit Carter with his famous “Are you better off now than four years ago” speech–and put Carter away. Polls showed a major shift from Carter to Reagan right after that.

    Could Perry do that to Obama in their debate? From what I saw in last night’s debate, I doubt it. Obama might actually keep Perry on the defensive, simply because Perry can’t debate on his feet.

    Herman Cain had an amazing story to tell and a fantastic hit on ObamaCare, when he explained how his own battle with Stage IV cancer depended on getting rapid access to care unimpeded by government bureaucrats. He owes his life–his LIFE–to that.

    Even if Cain is not the Presidential nominee, he must be the running mate, the VP nominee. Let’s see if Biden could respond to Cain’s story without falling on his face.

    My “dream ticket” has been and continues to be: Romney for President (takes on Obama on jobs and economy), Cain for Vice President (takes on Biden on ObamaCare and Biden’s “Recovery Summer” stupidity).

    Finally: I understand what’s happening here. There’s an emotional bond between Red Staters and Perry, because they perceive him as one of their own. And because they like the way he is saying on a national stage what they’ve always believed (that Social Security is a swindle). The fact that Perry can’t debate, the fact that he doesn’t have anything real to say on foreign policy, the fact that he actually called immigration hawks “heartless” (the same word the Dems use against them) doesn’t seem to matter, because they seem to have fallen in love with him.

    That’s the same mindset that enabled the Dem base to foist Obama on us without any real vetting. Back in 2008, it was the Dem base falling in love with Obama for much the same reasons: “He is one of us, he is saying the things we always wanted to say (the Iraq War was wrong to begin with).” And so they ignored all the warnings the Hillary people were saying and pushed Obama anyway.

    I appeal to my fellow conservatives here to NOT repeat the mistake the Dems made with Obama. Don’t fall in love with Perry just because you perceive him as one of your own. Ask yourself this: If Romney had turned in as poor a performance in these last couple of debates that Perry did, wouldn’t many of you be saying that Romney is toast–perhaps even that Romney should drop out? Then why can’t you be as dispassionate with Perry.

  • porkandcheese

    Governors cannot deport anyone.

  • http://www.itsaboutliberty.com IronDioPriest

    This was my first big exposure to Rick Perry aside from the hype, sound-bytes, and reading news articles. He was more of an “idea” than a candidate to me until last night.

    Well I finally got to see the man in action. I. Was. Not. Impressed. In. The. Least.

    I think we’ll see a leveling out of the candidates now rather than one pulling ahead. I think Romney will stay the front-runner. And I think the conservative base is getting the strong sense that they are about to get McCained all over again.

    If I had to guess – and this is pure speculation – I would say that Palin has been waiting for the conservative base to come to this conclusion on its own. Now that Perry is shown to be anything but the super-candidate that everyone presumed him to be, her long-ago stated criteria is fulfilled: she will get in the race if there is not another candidate with the constitutional conservative credentials in the race who can beat Obama.

    I think it is dawning on the conservative electorate at this very moment that there is not a constitutional conservative in the race who can beat Obama.

    I love Herman Cain, but he has some issues with his mouth and message control. Gingrich is a political animal who does well in these debates, but who sat next to Granny Pelosi as a shill for Global Warming, and who attacked Paul Ryan’s budget when it needed support the most. Bachmann has blown it, big time. The rest of the field will not do.

    If we are left with those in the race who are currently there, it will come down to Perry and Romney, and after tonight, I think there is little question it will be Romney.

    Thus, Sarah Palin’s criteria for jumping in has apparently been met.

  • porkandcheese

    The students who qualify for the Dream Act must be pursuing citizenship. They are legal immigrants when they graduate college.

  • eldstenorge

    and I would vote for him. I will not vote for Perry. Illegal Immigration is destroying this nation and he will not stand up like a Republican on the rule of law. The immunizations he tried for your children, attempting to take away even more rights of parents, which social services already is doing, is not the purview of government, and, if he is a Republican he should know better than this. I actually agree with him that social security is unconstitutional and a ponzi scheme, and I am 63 and still agree with him. Bachmann is great. Palin probably won all the way around and I would love the chance to vote for her. Santorum is also great. Huntsman is just a liberal who should be Obama’s running mate. Romney has become acceptable at least. We have some candidates who can win.

  • zeezil

    Santorum did not come off as a jerk at all. I thought he was great. He nailed Perry on his coddling illegals through Perry’s Dream Act. He was a standout and completely unafraid to tackel social issues. I especially appreciated his stance on DADT. Our military is not a social experiment! He also was excellent on national security.

    Erick was way off on his Santorum assessment. Otherwise, I agree with his other assessments. I didn’t sense an audio problem, though.

  • http://www.itsaboutliberty.com IronDioPriest

    He is a liar.

  • porkandcheese

    I don’t like new taxes or gimmicks. Any conservative promoting a consumption tax automatically gets a thumbs down from me, even if they propose other tax reforms. Because the reforms never see the light of day.

  • arthurmanger17

    Gingrich/Cain, Cain/Gingrich is an unbeatable combination. If you insert Bachmann into the mix you still have one hell of a ticket with either Cain or Gingrich. Perry will not last, as the field narrows Romney will not shine as he does now. A waiver for the fifty states is not the same as pulling Obamacare out by the roots. Right now though we need a voice of a libertarian like Paul but he has no chance. Huntsman is dull but the main stream media likes him because Obama could beat him. He will not be the nominee. Santorum is a good conservative candidate but the talking heads/kings makers in the press are ignoring him. The sooner they can push him out the better for them. To many conservatives in the race makes them nervous. But the press/king makers no longer pack the influence they once had because of the tea party and other grass roots groups. That causes the press even more distress. Even the pollsters and their polls lack the power to influence, nobody with a brain believes their results. This gimmick has played out. All this has come to pass because the Democrat party thought that a spoon full of Obama would help the socialism go down. Man were they wrong.

  • AceInTX

    I’m a Perry fan and I’m supporting him but this is toxic and he needs to find a way to deal with it.

    He needs to find a better way of dealing with Romney’s demagoguery on Social Security. The executive order on the HPV is bad and he needs to deal with that.

    One final issue he’d better be ready to answer because it’s just a matter of time before he’s forced to deal with it. That being the Trans Texas Corridor. He handled that badly in Texas and had it not been for the fact that he was newly elected and had time to repair the dmage, he’d have never been reelected.

  • porkandcheese

    Primaries work fine. Any electorate apathetic enough to tolerate a Romney presidency wouldn’t be bothered to burn down the White House. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, anyway. You’re a touchy anarchist.

  • Jim Tomasik

    I agree with you about Cain’s 999 thing. It’s a bad idea. But he is looking better than the rest to me right at this moment.

    What’s worse than Cains tax reform plan is Bachmann’s crazy talk about vaccines. She is the only one on stage that I think would be worse than Romney.

    Newt sounds great but who can forget when he sat on the couch with Nancy and when he went to the dance with scuzzyfuzzy in New York.

    Perry gave the worst debate performance I have ever ever seen last night. Other than that, I can live with his thinking most of the time.

    I can’t support Gary Johnson due to his pro abortion position.

    Ron Paul needs a padded cell.

    Mitt Romney will be the end of the TEA Party as far as I’m concerned. I mean, what’s the point of all this work to bring the country back to where it is supposed to be if that guy is the nominee?

    The other Rick? He needs to stick a sock in his mouth.

    Huntsman? OK, who keeps letting this guy in the “debates”?

  • melissatx

    did a pretty good job of redeeming themselves last night; though I did not watch all of it I did not observe Santorum being angry. That being said, he was right on to find Perry’s stance on in state tuition offensive. I can see something like that in Cali, but not here. The PEOPLE, I can assure you, do not want in state tuition or preferential, treatment for illegals, not matter WHAT the liberal House in Austin tells you.

    Cain was magnificent; Gary who??????? I think Newt was great, but he would present himself better in a read debate and not a round table. He has some terrific ideas.

    All in all, I think no matter who wins for the most part, there is a good start on a cabinet….though I’d love to see Bill Bennett back in the downsized Dept of Ed. I hope, for the sake of our foreign policy, whomever gets the nomination they are smart enough to ask John Bolton to run as the veep. Man is a veritable encyclopedia on foreign affairs, movers, players and bad guys.

  • hunter

    Republicans are doing what we seem genetically predisposed to do:
    form a circular firing squad and shooting.
    Perry, my Governor whom I support, is not a hard core conservative. He talks tough- and lately too tough. I doubt if he is really ready for the Presidential run, although I wish he was.
    Romney is the only one looking Presidential.
    MB? Please. Newt? lol. Paul?ygtbk. Caine? dream on. Santorum?loser. Huntswho?
    At this point, we should put our efforts into taking the Senate and keeping the House. I do not see a realistic candidate to beat Obama.
    Romney has the resume, but is crippled by Romneycare and religious bigots will never support a Mormon.

  • AceInTX

    He’ll stand by his positions and go down fighting. This is refreshing in a politician if you ask me…Perry’s problem is however..that he too often won’t back off when backing off is called for

  • red_oakster

    Perry has turned in 3 poor performances; indeed, one is worse than the next. Maybe he gets four strikes in this game, but I doubt it.

    Right about now, I’m hoping Paul Ryan will reconsider. And Sarah Palin has to be smiling.

  • papabear

    Gherkin and NeoKong are correct. I’d set the bar at 5% on at least 3 major polls. That would take out Johnson, Huntsman and Santorum. To be blunt, they are a waste of airtime. They add nothing to the debate (sorry EE – I cannot agree with your assessment of Huntsman)!

  • AceInTX

    next you’ll say the Dems are more afraid of Romney blah blah blah….

    That line has become a cliche’ and speaks to the vapidness of moderate Republicans and their inability to learn from past losses.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    This race is suddenly starting to look like the story of the tortise and the hare.

    On the hare side you have: Bachmann, Perry, Santorum, and Pawlenty. All are (or were) betting on getting a quick start out of the gate that would give their campaign momentum. Of these, Perry is the only one that is still a viable candidate (imho).

    On the tortoise side you have: Romney, Cain, Paul, and Gingrich. They’re all running the slow-and-steady race. They’ve taken hits (some big ones), but they have structured their campaigns so they can weather any temporary storms and stay in over the long haul.

  • red_oakster

    Perry had a chance to bury Romney in these debates; instead he buried himself. How disappointing. Perry would be so much better than Romney, but if he can’t handle himself in these debates he’s unlikely to get a chance.

  • unclefred

    They need be in the state for only one year
    they need to file an affidavit of intent to get permanent residence when legally able.

    Of course it costs taxpayers money because the state subsidizes instate tuition rates…

    BTW The texas statute violates federal law. Will Perry enforce the federal law if he is president? If not will he repeal it?
    There are serious issues here.

  • red_oakster

    All of a sudden, there’s room again for a new anti-Romney. I hope Paul Ryan will reconsider because he’s the real deal.

  • earlgrey

    nt.

  • jmcmd

    Perry’s immigration stance is so distateful and unconservative I am having a hard time seeing how he gets the nomination. Unfortunatly I don’t trust Mitt either. The scenario that I am beginning to see as a possibility (maybe just a case of my projecting my insecurity with both front runners) is where Perry and Romney take each other out and Newt climbs into the lead. If his new Contract With America is well crafted, it just might resonate and put him above the fray. I am also getting the feeling that Newt has the best chance of beating Obama in a debate.I’m still waiting to write my check.

  • AceInTX

    are you not paying attention?

    Perry would continue benefits for current recipients on the same schedule, and transition to private accounts for individuals…he would also let states put their employees on a separate system.

    Romney thinks the SS system is swell and would let it continue as it is into bankruptcy so that everyone losses while attacking fellow Republicans trying to fix the system using Democrat talking points.

    yet he’ll talk about what a great leader he is…

  • scottb

    far as it went. With 9 people it’s hard. Erickson needs to get his TV fixed. It sounded great from my end. Best yet. At least we got to hear questions from some real people instead of what the media wanted to hear. I couldn’t pick a overall winner, but I did like Cain, Paul, Bachmann, and Newt. (not necessarily in that order) Perry needs to get his priorities in order, and I’m just not sure about Mitt. It would be hard for me to pick a favorite at this time.

  • defenseconservative

    Jon Huntsman gave the best answers? Really? How? What answers?

    Is the GOP being infected with the Democrats’ appeasement-and-defense-cuts-foreign-policy virus?

  • snappy101

    It’s too bad we elect people on how well they debate since that skill is not used by a President. On that same note, someone should tell Michele Bachmann she isn’t running for Parent of The Year and raising kids (no matter how admirable or how many passed through her door) isn’t equivalent to executive experience. Rick Santorum had on his emotional cranky pants last night. Still no debate question or candidate challenging John Huntsman for calling Obama “remarkable” and underlining it. Why did he think Obama was remarkable if he’s attacking Obama now? The moderators aren’t asking Rick Perry, Rick Perry offense questions. He needs to talk about the business cultivated with Israel during his governorship. He needs to talk about leadership decisions and activities along with his decision to take in a very large number of Katrina refugees. He needs to talk about how he actively wooed businesses to come to Texas. Herman Cain won because he speaks plainly. Gingrich is gaining my respect but since he doesn’t have executive experience, I won’t vote for him. Still, he’d make a great Presidential advisor. Romney won’t call Obama a socialist nor did he actually answer the question about supporting Obama’s Race To The Top.

  • Kyle-MI

    I agree that they are not completely divorces from economic issues, but they are not the top priority for fixing the economy. SS reform is not going to happen in one year. It will take a lot of effort, a lot of time, and a lot of educating the public. Even when reformed it will take a while before those currently on SS shuffle off this mortal coil. Perry has not proposed reforming SS as his top priority. It is only being brought up because he mentioned it in his book and his opponents (both GOP and liberals, but especially the liberals) want to distract voters from the top priority issue. Illegal immigration is also an issue which will take a lot of time and effort to fix. It will take time (and money) to secure the boarder. It will not happen fast enough to have an immediate impact on the economy. There are other policies we can pursue that will help the economy much more quickly.

  • anxious4change

    I am so utterly disappointed in the way Perry has been handling himself at the debates. I think whoever is preparing him needs to be fired. Who is telling him to attack Romney rather than answer the question? That bickering that went on last night did little to help either of them, but clearly Perry was the one who was coached to attack Romney at every possible moment. YUCK.

    I’m not from Texas so correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the reason why Perry is “against the fence” as everyone likes to accuse him of because the border is the Rio Grande River?? Why doesn’t Perry ever point out that it would be enormously expensive and nearly impossible to build and upkeep a fence in the middle of river and that the ranchers along the river rely on access to it for their livelihoods?

    As far as Romney, when asked what he considered “rich” he dodged the question, but twice he proudly boasted his tax relief plans for those making under $200K a year. So we know what this $200 million dollar man thinks is rich — $200,000!!! That sounds like OBAMA, and haven’t republicans been trying to tell Obama that those making $200K or more are small business owners — the job creators? No one called him to task on this last night. Romney has liberal ideas that align perfectly with Obama, and Perry missed his opportunity to point that out in favor of this petty little game of attacking each other’s books.

    In-State tuition. I’m quite sure if there were only 4 dissenting votes, if Perry had vetoed it, it would’ve been overturned anyway. It’s what the Texas people wanted. But he’d better watch the ‘states rights’ arguments when he’s arguing against RomneyCare. Romney is using ‘states rights’ to defend that as well. You can’t have it both ways.

  • red_oakster

    Christie is lots of bark, but less bite. He’s a great governor, but would be a big disappointment as president.

  • pbeck

    If America does not elect a majority of representatives and a president that adhere to the principles of the Old Testament?s Nehemiah, we will forever be slaves and chaos will forever be our future. In 2012, Americans must vote for the candidates who have the courage to reveal that they will enact legislation and policies that will ?require something? from the citizenry to right this ship, and voters must reject the candidates that ?promise something? to the citizenry to buy their votes. We have to embrace sound fiscal discipline for the nation and return to being a nation that lends, not borrows. Fiscal discipline is the utmost guarantee for this nation to continue to be a blessing to the rest of the world.

  • Lesstressrx

    For those of you that think Eric was wrong, you didn’t see the same debate as most of us. These candidates need to stop fighting between each other & stay focused on the issues.
    Enough is enough with Perry & Romney. Santorum was angry. Maybe he had had a bad day. His body language was angry. Rick was flustered from the very beginning. Cain is always precise and cool. Newt is a great debater and doesn’t waste our time complaining about the other candidates. They all need to stick to jobs, economy, and beating Obama in 2012. The social issues are going to kill us and we may end up with another 4 years of Obama.
    Yes, everyone on that stage would be better than Obama, but that doesn?t say much. I would like to think we could have a President that is superior to Obama. If you don?t like all the politics, Cain is your man.

  • gunslingr45

    what do you mean by that?

  • defenseconservative

    Cain used to be my favorite candidate. No longer. He’s now almost at the bottom of my list of candidates, just above the RINOs and the libertarians (Paul and Johnson). His 9-9-9 plan is the worst possible tax plan. It would lead to double taxation: taxation of both income and sold products. We would end up with both an income tax and a sales tax. This is unacceptable.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    and you will find they are comprable. And no, I’m not talking about Harvard, I’m talking about the regular private colleges that are all over the country.

    Baylor (private): $32k year
    Texas (public): in-state = $10k, out-state = $32k

    Oglethorpe (private): $29k
    Georgia (public): in-state = $10k, out-state = $28k

    The cost of out of state tuition at state schools is comprable to the cost of tuition at a private school in the state. Out of state tuition isn’t a rip off of students, that’s just what it costs WITHOUT the state subsidy.

    Giving illegals in-state tuition is a $22,000 subsidy in Texas. That represents a real cost that has to be made up somehow by the state.

  • porkandcheese

    That was written with some sweet federal money in mind, too, a little green job investment for the guy who would take AF1 to his kid’s baseball game. I don’t even get that he’s such a fiscal hawk, except for his fights with the teachers, one that they picked with him. He needs more time to establish a record before many will be persuaded to support him.

  • porkandcheese

    It wasn’t just any Muslim but the former legal defense for the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, a guy with ties to Hamas.

  • red_oakster

    He could have locked up Iowa had he debated well, but now he’s left someone else an opening. My own sense is that Ryan would be best, and I hope he’ll reconsider. I am betting that Palin is now looking very seriously at getting back in the game. There’s also room for Pence. If one of those folks gets in, they become the favorite in Iowa.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    I know there are reasons (other than AGW which I do remember), but right now he’s starting to look better.

  • pbeck

    The religious bigots label is based on what exactly? Have you studied what Mormons believe in order to be a Mormon? Maybe it’s a pick and choose religion; “I’ll be a good person, but I just have a hard time believing in those “seer stones”. And the underwear thingy, I’m a Hanes man myself.”
    Mr. Romney is a very nice fellow from what I have read and seen, but I am unsure he would be courageous enough to fight for conservative America in the face of media scrutiny?and it will come at him with both barrels blazing.
    The MSM seems to have a grip on your mind. They have very little credibility now and more and more voters know it. Debates are supposed to be raucous and if they weren’t, some folks like me would wonder why they weren’t.
    Just be patient and don’t spread your pessimism around if you can control yourself. It’s early my friend.

  • Common_Cents

    they need to stop the stupid back and forth childish zingers. Of course the media wants a jerry Springer type brawl. They cannot fall into that trap anymore.

    the first one to call out the moderators like Gingrich does will do themselves some good.

  • rattlerjake

    These are LAW BREAKERS! The government and law enforcement just look the other way. Just because they have been here for a long while (Not been caught), doesn’t make it right. This is the incentive for illegals to come here and ‘hide in plain sight’, because eventually they will be rewarded. Once they become a citizen by amnesty, these non-taxpayers have access to all of the programs (social security, welfare, grants, etc.) that they have avoided their whole illegal stay.

    Your argument about college vs low wage is bogus also, as the majority of the “immigrants” or their children do not obtain a degree, and those that do are unfairly competing with us and our children for the better jobs. There is no excuse for allowing ONE illegal to stay, we need secure borders, and more restrictive immigration.

  • porkandcheese

    They all want to curry favor with the winner, and they want Romney to win. He will possibly pick one of them for his ticket to make him more appealing to the base, or that’s what these losers all think. They are biding their time, though an opportunity may never come.

  • porkandcheese

    But he is all over the place policywise and brings too much baggage to be near the ticket. He shines in debates, but he’s toxic to independents.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    he got rolled all the time by Clinton. Bubba gave him a wedgie, a swirly, and a purple nurple.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    Especially after someone (Ron Paul?) commented that the leaders in 2008 at this time were Guiliani and Thompson).

  • porkandcheese

    Considering the debate host, he should have said, “Google is your friend” when Romney blatantly lied.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    again in this generation then that brings into question your other views.

  • rattlerjake

    Why should they be afforded instate tuition rates as a law breaker but other US citizens not? No amount of explaining justifies giving an ILLEGAL a break, whether they pay for it themselves (which they don’t) or PLAN to become a citizen. THEY ARE BREAKING FEDERAL LAW! Americans have become too pacifistic and sympathetic and this is the major cause of this country’s downfall.

  • 4suramcan

    Herman Cain is one of “us” and not a politician. But waaay too many people dont understand this. I can only pray for him and that others will see the reality of what Washington has become. I’m afraid that when they do see it, it will be far too late.

  • izoneguy

    And debates Obama – that will be real interesting.

    Obama & the dems probably love the Texas Dream Act.

    Obama & the dems would have no problem with Perry
    mandating HPV shots.

    What would the dems hit Perry with?

    The fact Texas has created jobs?

    Obama & the dems will probably come after Perry with
    some kind of an environmental/EPA angle.

    Now if Romney were the nominee – it will be hilarious
    when Mitt says he will repeal ObamaCare – Obama
    will ask Mitt if he is going to repeal RomneyCare in Mass.

    Romney keeps saying he is a businssman. But what about the
    failed campaigns for Senator and President? Romney
    just wishes he was a career politician.

    Perry could zing him over that but Perry seems to hold
    back a bit.

  • Common_Cents

    Agree, if you look across all the debates for the most solid, consistent, authoritative candidate, it is Gingrich. Also notice, Gingrich’s name came up most from other candidates on who they would have as their VP, that is very telling about who is respected. If Newt would have played along on the question, some of the other candidates would have named him as well.

    He is announcing contract for America next week in Iowa. Should get him some traction. If he can last a bit longer for the culling of the field coming up, he’ll be even money with Romney and Perry. I’d pay money to see him debate Obama. Obama camp would try to limit the debates as much as possible and limit the format to minimize the trashing he’d get.

    I would support Romney if he gets the nod but I don’t think he is the guy. He has the same “nice guy” quality of McCain and the media would trash him. Romney is a bit better at fighting back but probably not enough. Pawlenty was similar as he was too nice and reasoned and looked angry/fake when he tried to fight back. The media has to be viewed as hostile and must be called out whenever they get out of line. Gingrich has that nailed, I think Perry can do that too. Our candidate does need that quality or they will be eaten alive. (others who have that quality are Rudy, Christie, Trump, not that I support them, just commenting on the media savvy)

    Still think Perry is solid but it boggles my mind when people here at RS respond to every criticism of Perry with, “read the 17-18 point explanation, for his past baggage, but when it comes to Newt, “ah, he has baggage, unelectable” with no explanation.

    Gingrich does need to get out front of the Pelosi couch thing, personal marriage screwup because everyone wants to get behind him but balk at these issues. He should not wait until these get brought up and needs to get out front on them with conservatives.

  • porkandcheese

    Obviously Perry has been boning up on foreign policy, too, maybe too much at this stage. He is skipping the Texas stuff, because he feels it’s a nontraversy that has been rehashed throughout his career. Except this is a national campaign, and he is introducing himself to new voters. This stage seems like growing pains, but everyone came out gunning for him. Everyone else got to take their time and get settled in. Remember Cain on the Palestinians? Huntsman’s deer in the headlights debut? Gingrich comparing gays and Muslims to Nazis? Romney just coasts, and Bachmann and Santorum have imploded. Perry could be doing better, but he could be doing a lot worse, too.

  • porkandcheese

    Gingrich has shown the most momentum besides Perry, but Gingrich started at rock bottom through no fault but his own.

  • izoneguy

    In Perry’s book – he does say the SS is a failure.

    And it is.

    Now when Romney says SS is a criminial enterprise……

    Where is the outrage?

    Romney did say that words written in books are hard to defend.

    Well Rick – What are you going to do????

    You need to run a TV spot – Highlight your words and
    contrast them to Romney’s.

  • porkandcheese

    NT

  • rattlerjake

    Both Romney and Perry are yes men. They will ultimately go with the flow. That is why neither one of them is answering the questions without bobbling! They’re trying to answer with what they think both sides will like. Both have mediocre backgrounds as far as their decision making, but that’s what most Americans seem to accept for POTUS.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    (1) Cain has said repeatedly he’s not running for VP.

    (2) It’s interesting to note that both Perry and Romney have made overtures about Cain being a VP candidate. Perry’s no so subtle line, and Romney going out of his way to praise Cain.

    What that tells me is both guys are thinking they may need to nail down the base (Tea Partiers) with the VP. That does raise a red-flag in the case of Perry, because it was my impression when he got in that he already was a solid Tea Partier, but as more details about him come out he is starting to look less Tea Party and more politician.

  • snappy101

    Here’s one. If you don’t like how Texans make decisions about their state run colleges, don’t send your out-of-state kids to college in Texas. It’s not like a degree from any state college makes you guaranteed to get a job at some prestigious institution or business. Go to your own state college if you need the tuition break. It’s not like the US has a National University where a President would have to make that kind of decision. Perry just has to say as president, he won’t make that kind of decision or sign any bill as it’s a states rights issue. It would also help if he had some numbers to back up the drain these students would be on Texas entitlements if they didn’t go to college.

    Also, he’s made (and it is his fault) “no fence” the same as “not guarding the border.” He need to be more clear and emphatic about how the border should be guarded. He says what he’s doing but he doesn’t say it clearly enough that people see his method as a more effective way of doing it.

    I agree with all of the posters that say he’s over-coached.

  • LiveStronger

    if he only had a brain.

    With the thoughts he’d be thinkin’, he could be another Lincoln.

  • izoneguy

    Put him in charge of getting rid of the EPA.

    And Welfare.

  • LiveStronger

    Rick Perry may sound like the conservative Messiah but he can’t hold his own in a debate.

    I’m more interested in winning next year than in nominating someone from the far right who will lock in Obama for four long, unaccountable years.

    If you think Obama’s first term was bad, wait until he is elected to serve in a capacity where he never has to go before the voters again.

    You’ll find out exactly what he thinks about the middle class at that point.

  • izoneguy

    Romney looks and sounds more like the spokesman for

    Touch of Grey.

  • LiveStronger

    It won’t work. Voters are angry at Obama for promising hope and change and delivering unemployment and austerity for those who are lucky enough to still have a job.

    Obama can whine all he wants about Romney accomplishing health care reform in Massachusetts. But if that is the best Obama can offer, he can say goodbye to Ohio, Michigan, Florida, North Carolina and about 10 other states.

    Romney can beat Obama in Pennsylvania, Florida, and New Hampshire. I’d love to see a poll that suggests that Rick Perry could do that.

  • littletboca

    While watching the debate, I thought it very strange that no one really attacked the National Deficit – it’s like raising the debt ceiling.

    There is billions of dollars in waste, which many say isn’t enough to talk about, but I disagree. It adds up to trillions if anyone would address the real misuse of our money.

    I must agree with Erick – Hermann Cain was awesome.

  • LiveStronger

    81% of the jobs created in Texas since 2007 went to immigrants, right?

    Source: http://cis.org/immigrants-filled-most-new-jobs-in-Texas

  • papabear

    EEs quote “Rick Santorum came off like a jerk. He was way too angry on every answer, even those times I fully agreed with him. He was just angry.” is kind. The impression I got was of a head shaking, roid raging football player that was blind with anger.
    By the time Santorum had spoken a few times, I was starting to get a visceral reaction to both seeing and hearing him.. Obama is the only politician that affects me stronger. This was quite surprising to me – I have heard Santorum guest host on Friday for Bill Bennett’s talk show for years. I used to view him positively.

    If a conservative person like me has this kind of reaction, what impression does he give independents? How does that reflect on us?

    Santorum needs to go – for the sake of the country

  • red_oakster

    It’s not a comparison with unelectables like Cain and Gingrich. He was going for the prize and he performed very poorly. If anyone serious jumps in, Perry runs the risk of getting kicked to the curb in Iowa.

    I like Ryan because he is unflappable. BTW, watch Guiliani. Perry’s demise is an opening for him too in a bizarre sort of way.

  • hairbaggs

    Illegal means breaking the law. Why should someone that breaks the law be rewarded for it? Lets give pot dealers a college subsidy so they can learn better how to avoid the long arm of the law and reap more profits. Just think of the incarceration money taxpayer would save. How big does the hole have to get before this ship sinks?

  • LiveStronger

    would make a horrible running mate.

    He’s an intellectual know-it-all who doesn’t put a single state or demographic group into the R column that wasn’t already there.

    I like Marco Rubio, Chris Christie, or Bob McDonnell for VP.

  • LiveStronger

    the lower deck of a Boeing 777. Seriously. I could not invent a less electable candidate than Sarah Palin.

  • paco12348

    Frankly, I liked the debate. Romney came off very well and Perry killed himself with immigration answers. I needed to find out things about him and I did. He’ll not get my vote. I also liked Johnson’s replies and wish he had had more attention. Newt is the smartest and better qualified but his “baggage” must be much worse than Clinton’s even though Clinton’s defiled the White House. Go figure! I like Newt, he’s American. Cain always does well and would make a great, uplifting President. Bachmann is ok but turns me off. If I hear her say how many kids she raised one more time I’ll puke. I’m Tea Party but I don’t stand behind her.
    Santorum did well. Can’t stand Huntsman. He’s either a Democrat or a Rino Democrat. No better than McCain.
    I figure Romney won but I sure like Cain.
    Perry’s star will start falling after this debate.

  • anxious4change

    Johnson does not smoke pot or drink alcohol. His being in favor of legalizing the former is all about economics. He puts pot and alcohol in the same category and believes (as was proved) prohibition does not work.

    Funny how the others are never asked about their stance on legalizing pot, and yet Johnson, who is probably the most fiscally conservative person running, always has that hanging over his head.

    I’m a Perry supporter (even with his dismal performance last night — still holding out hope he’ll get his footing and then kick ass), but I have to come to the defense of Gary Johnson when I see this kind of talk, knowing he does not personally smoke pot or drink.

  • tyman

    I didn’t watch the debate except for a few tidbits.

    I did see the post debate with the Luntz group. Perry really, really needs to work on his answer. Had I not looked all of this up, I’d still be upset about it.

    Students actually have to be in Texas for three (3) years prior to graduation or receiving their GED.

    One thing about the in-state tuition subsidy in Texas: illegals pay taxes in Texas through the state sales tax. The Luntz focus group acted like the illegals don’t pay anything, that it’s a freebie, is completely BOGUS and I’m disappointed that Perry won’t bring this out.

    Until the Federal government does its part, the state has its hands tied. Remember, the Feds mandate that the states pay for illegals. Perry knows this better than anyone on that stage. Perry also knows that he has a delicate balance, because he will need the Hispanic vote.

    I would have loved for Perry to ask Santorum:: How do you build a fence or wall in the middle of a river, and have it so that farmers on the border can get the water they need? It’s not the simple solution that so many think it is.

    There’s a lot more to this than just “send ‘em back”.

  • izoneguy

    And doing great work for the DNC.
    37.6 % of the people in Texas are Hispanic.
    I don’t know how many are illegal.
    Texas shares a 1200 border with Mexico
    which presents unique challenges.
    If the Fed Govt would enforce the immigration
    laws on the books – this would not be such a
    big element to the Republican nomination process.
    Texas spends over $100 Million per year of
    it’s own money enforcing the border.
    What other State spends that kind of
    money doing what the Feds should be doing?

    As the posts here show – they don’t understand what the Texas
    Dream Act is or what it really does.
    They need to go read this.

    Thread on the Texas Dream Act

  • Change Jar Conservative

    The real fear for those of us who sat through the painful Bush debates is that Obama won’t have to hit Perry with anything.

    If he performs like he did last night, he will do himself in.

    He needs to ratchet up his debate skills or we need to find someone else.

  • notpropagandized

    I’ve read some bad synopses of the debate and some pretty good ones. This one is the best and most succinct. HermanCain won and it is apparent that he’s being overlooked. I’m going to send him some more money and wish I could send more. Thanks, Erick.

  • http://www.neoavatara.com/blog neoavatara

    Pretty depressed after this debate. Perry appears to be an empty suit. He can turn it around, but he better do it fast. The other candidates outside of Romney are not really viable. So that leaves master Mitt. I will vote for Mitt if forced to, but God, that will be painful.

    Cain, Santorum, Gingrich had the best debates, but I just dont seen any of those three winning.

    God, can someone reasonable (Christie, Bush, etc) reconsider for God’s sake?

  • grazibella

    Your guy totally biffed it! haha He’s a total embarrassment. Sarah Palin is brilliant for waiting to get into these debates. So far both Bachmann and Perry have imploded. It’s gonna be between Palin and Romney. My money’s totally on Palin. The woman is a flippin’ genius.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    and being underestimated by the GOP establishment.

    Romney (imho) is the unelectable one in the general election.

    The Tea Party is simply not going to get behind McCain v2.0. They will view a Romney nomination as confirmation of what they believed all along: that the GOP elite/establishment has no real interest in reform; that politics and maintaining their power is more important to them than actually fixing the problems we’re facing.

    The Tea Party movement is not an anti-Obama movement. Some of the newbies elected last round get it, but it’s obvious most of the GOP establishment doesn’t. Business as usual won’t be tolerated by the Tea Party. A Romney nomnation would fracture the party, as he is the “business as usual” candidate.

  • cacharlie

    You said it Fred Thompson! We need a magnet.-
    Agreed, Erick, Cain is positively a magnet for all our hopes. He would use all the talent on stage last night and elsewhere to lift us out of this obamadrama.

    I still like Perry – doesn’t seem to be a slick–willy. I would like to have him in charge of federal boots on the ground on our southern border.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    so they are constitutionally prohibited from being on the ticket together. The president and VP must be from different states.

    Unless Newt has officially changed his state of residence to VA, MD, or DC, but I’m pretty sure Newt still claims GA as his state of residence.

    Herman Cain is definitly a resident of GA.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    “You can disagree with the state if Texas but Texas has every right to make the decision on their policy of in-state tuition.”

    “You can disagree with the state if Mass butMass has every right to make the decision on their policy of a single payer healthcare system (RomneyCare).”

    Does that analogy clear up your confusion? Sure Texas and Mass have the right ot make these decisons, nobody is arguing that, people are arguing that they disagree with the decision made in the state.

    People are trying to fugure out how both Romney and Perry would act as president by looking at how they acted as governor (a perfectly legitimate exercise). Romney’s health care plan, and Perry’s actions in regard to illegal immigration are raising red flags with voters about how they might govern at a national level.

    And some practical advice: sayng “it was a state issue, you wouldn’t understand, so quit asking about it” isn’t going to cut it. In fact, that’s a losing prescription.

  • jcmooreusnret

    Perry is certainly worse than Romney, however, they are both [big government neo-cons] who will not govern as Constitutionalists. Ergo: same-same government.

  • Kyle-MI

    What does Perry approving in-state tuition to illegal immigrants imply that he will do at the nation level as president?

    Also keep in mind that as Governor he has tried to secure the Texas section of the border. That seems to imply he would push for border security at the nation level.

  • TexasTami

    I agree with atlasshrugs: Newt Gingrich consistently wins these GOP debates, and ANY debate with ANYone. He’s brilliant. I came into this election season desperately wanting Perry to run, but we need a president who speaks without stumbling and who understands the basic principle of strong borders. We MUST MUST MUST fortify our walls against illegals and all the damage they do to this country. Newt Gingrich knows more than all these other candidates put together; he’s articulate; he’s “seasoned” and haven’t we had enough from a naive and unskilled president and his on-the-job training? Let’s put someone in the White House who KNOWS what this country needs.

  • kaheo

    What happens to these kids after they get done with college? He says we’d rather educate them than have them on the streets. Makes practical sense. There’s currently no path to legalization for them after school. Perry made a statement back that he opposes the DREAM Act (which would give legalization to these students). I can understand if he meant that he disagreed with its entire structure.

    The question now is whether he supports any form of path to permanent residency/citizenship for illegal immigrant students? So if he actually disagrees with them being awarded legal status, then isn’t the Texas Statute/Law and his stand contradictory in their intension?

  • TexasTami

    The problem with Paul Ryan is that he doesn’t have the experience yet to be president. Sarah Palin is awesome, but she’s not presidential material either. We have several candidates already that would make good if not great presidents.

  • kaheo

    There’s no federal law that makes an illegal student a legal immigrant just because they’ve graduated with a degree. If am wrong please show me the law that makes them legal. How does an illegal immigrant pursue citizenship under our current law?

  • Doc Holliday

    Perry is wrong, he is wrong as the day is long and until he changes his views, he will likely lose the nomination.

    You are talking theory, if paying only sales taxes were “cool” then I guess we all could quit filing tax returns. I happen to know several people, including myself, who joined the military so they could get Texas in-state tuition. So why don’t you explain to me why it is “ok” for illegal aliens, criminals, to get in-state tuition while I had to put my life on the line to get the same thing?

    I am proud of my military service, but tens of thousands did like I did to get in-state tuition. Why are American citizens forced to pay through the nose or join the army, when illegals can just get in line 1? Do me a favor, you and yours should quit trying to square a circle, we are about honesty here. Explain why a wrong is a right, don’t spout off about some nonsense you have no clue about.

    (yes, this is the Doc, I have been gone over a month. I may post again, if not banned by thugs like Neil and Aaron Gardner his sycophant, but that post could be in a month, or a year. Hey to all my compadres here.)

  • westcoastpatriette

    and I had a similar discussion with onemovoter last night. I had trouble getting the point across that an illegal immigrant has no legal grounds to apply for citizenship. The only thing they are “entitled” to is a swift kick in the butt back to their motherland–commonly known as deportation.

  • ihateliberals

    The media and the Democrats have set the aenda for these debates and are driving the polls to thw way they want things to turn out. There are too many debates . The debates are starting far too early in the race and by the time we get to the primaries everyone just won’t give a crap who is the front runner. The front runners are being pushed at us by the republican elite and the media. To give you an idea about media hype i am a NASCAR fan. I go to many of the races. The media for some reason have fallen in love with Jeff Gordon. Jeff in reality is not very well liked by other racers nor the Fans. Last year at the Martinsville track during the driver introductions Jeff was introduced. The entire audience Booed the driver and did so until he left the stage. I always tape the Races and when i returned home the Boo’s had been edited out and Cheers were put in giving the appearance that the audience loved him as the TV host did. this is what is a hppening with the GOP right now. The media and the Democrats have set the agenda and have the candidates at each others throats. I quite frankly will not be listening to anymore of the GOP debates. I really don’t want to hear why one candidate is better than another i want to hear what a candidate has to offer and how they are going to defeat Obama and lead us out of this depression. So every time I hear a GOP candidate attack one of the other GOP candidates “We the people” lose. GOP please stop fighting one another. When you are dong that the media and the Democrats just love it becasue you aren’t attacking teh real problem which is the Democrats and Obama. My advice to you is to STOP IT! ATTACK OBAMA NOT EACH OTHER. When you attack each other itis very unbecoming and childish. It makes me want to not vote for any of you.

  • carolynr

    Were you aware sir, that this is the way the Latinos gain citizenship, and yes, in state tuition to any college in any state? This is a State Issue. It is not the business of any other state what Texas does. Texas residents have to pay for it…not someone in MA. If the Legislature voted overwhelmingly for it…who the heck are you to say anything…UNLESS YOU LIVE IN TEXAS. Besides…please tell me how this is any different than “mandating” health insurance in MA and giving a subsidy for the mandate. So…health insurance is different than education? If you want to go to Texas A&M…Go to Texas and then you will get in-state tuition…otherwise…you are stuck with the state you have.

  • carolynr

    Oh…boo…hoo…do you mean that the poor parents had to make a decision. Well, guess what…it’s about time. Besides…what about all the other vaccinations that the Department of Education “mandates” before you are allowed to go to school. Besides…what is about Opt Out…or Opt In that is different. Here it is…it’s available…DO YOU WANT IT OR NOT….Simple…not difficult.

  • kaheo

    It would be interesting to know what Perry’s real stand is on the federal DREAM Act. To my knowledge, the DREAM Act legislation or equivalent would be the only way through which illegal students become students. The DREAM Act did not pass congress. Perry and the Texas Legislature obviously know this but unfortunately many voters don’t understand how immigration adjustment of status works in this country. It’s extremely difficult for a legal (note legal and not illegal) non-immigrant to become a citizen. Perry makes it seem like all they have to do is graduate and then apply for citizenship. If it was that easy, we wouldn’t have 12 million illegal immigrants, we’d be having 12+ million new citizens!

  • carolynr

    I will have several blogs, however, this is where I will start. Obama is not Left of Center…BUT LEFT…in fact, the man has left the reservation…he’s a communist…yes…not a socialist…a communist. Have you noticed your freedoms eroding day by day? I have. But…I digress. Let’s just do an experiment. If the dial is all the way to the left and I want to get it somewhere close to the middle or middle right….I get someone that is a COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF OBAMA. That is Perry. OK…so the guy’s strong suit is not debating…he’ll get better…catch my remarks about Romney’s lies in the next blog. If Romney, who is a moderate…(this guy is far from a Conservative), then when you reset your dial….and Obama is to the left…and Romney is the middle, you know the “good person to get Independents”…then you GET LEFT OF CENTER. Is that what you people really want with the problems we have today? The closest thing we have to Reagan is Perry. Daddy Bush was a globalist…you remember one world crap. He could get the Independents….what happened..we got Clinton. Remember his words…Read by Lips and then…like a good Independent posing as a Conservative like Romney…OUR TAXES WENT UP…HE COMPROMISED. Then we had dufus McCain…what happened…we got Obama..all because we had to appease the Independents. Does McCain Like to Compromise…like to play it in the middle…of course. So we would have the same problem as today…BECAUSE HE DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO BE PRINCIPLED. Does this country stand on principles and the Constitution or is it a country that changes with the day…AND NOBODY KNOWS WHERE TO GO OR WHAT TO DO.

    So people…are you voting on Style or Voting on Substance? You want someone to play both sides to the middle…Vote Romney…and when you do…remember…THERE WILL NEVER BE A CHANGE…THERE WILL ONLY BE COMPROMISE AND WITH THE DEFICIT AND DEBT WE HAVE NOW…CAN WE REALLY AFFORD THE COMPROMISE AS THE SHIP SINKS FURTHER INTO THE WATER’S BOTTOM? S&P doesn’t think so.

  • Doc Holliday

    but Texas is making a huge mistake. They are leveraging their future for votes and peace because they did not deal with the invasion sooner. You have a lot of “guts” to tell me to stay out of Texas’ business. I am a Texan, and I am sick of the fact that our politicians are running scared. They already let the horse out of the barn and now they have not the guts to shut the gate to other stampeding horses.

    btw, you did not reply to a word I said, you did not refute a single comment. I am willing to give Perry a break, but he has to meet us half way. If Texas is so great, he should stay there. If he wants to be the president of the United States of America, he needs to explain his policies to all Americans.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    is the implication being drawn.

    Would Perry, as president, push to fast-track citizenship for people that came here as illegal immigrants? Bush did, McCain did, all of the Democratic party supports it, and much of the GOP establishment supports it.

    Problem is most voters (and a vast, vast majority of Tea Partiers) are 100% opposed to it. So opposed to it in fact, that it alone is a deal-killer for many.

  • carolynr

    Now…about Romney. When Perry said that he took a paragraph out of his soft cover…he should have said he took SEVERAL OUT. It seems that Romney would like healthcare managed on the Federal Level with private companies…but he still WANTS IT MANAGED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Get the Federal Government OUT OF OUR LIVES. It’s a slippery slope…we all know it. Remember, the EPA was started to protect endangered species, etc. NOW IT IS SETTING YOUR THERMOSTAT in concert with the Dept. of Energy.

    Then Perry brought up the fact that Romney agrees with Obama with Race to the Top, ANOTHER FEDERAL CONCEPT FOR EDUCATION. Are you getting the picture? What did Romney do…he denied it. We already have a liar in the WH…we are going to vote in another one? The guy is a big tax and spend Moderate. How about his job creation? Is our problem getting jobs going again? Who has the record? Perry. But…we have to get the Independents…so we compromise. If the policy is socialistic and the Democrats want to spend more…when we compromise…we still get a dumbed down version of socialism and WE STILL SPEND MONEY….Money…I might add that we do not have. So…people, you go investigate Romney’s missteps last night. Oh…another little trait…I really don’t like the way Romney interacted with Perry either….Answering him as if he were dumb..or he didn’t know what he was talking about. Condescending little prig isn’t he. Sounds like shades of Alinsky…all because Perry called him on his alteration of his book AND HIS backing of Race to the Top. Getting the Picture. But then…that is all people that were born with a silver spoon in their mouth do…the condescend. Want someone to relate to most of America…choose Perry.

  • jedison

    Attacking Obama is the easy part. Obama is a known quantity, he will be the same candidate in 2012 as he is today.

    You can argue that a hyped up nationally televised debate with 9 individuals isn’t really the best way to pick a candidate, and I would mostly agree, but it is absolutely necessary that we see who these people are and that they are given an opportunity to persuade us.

    I don’t want to see another speech, I want to see a substantive debate on the issues where the candidates are engaging each other (although not so much about whose book said what). I’d like to see them actually talking to each other about their ideas (and maybe even make eye contact with each other, ahem Mrs. Bachmann).

    The Democrats may find all this hugely entertaining, like Apollo Creed before he actually got in the ring with Rocky Balboa, but in the end all that matters is who is left standing when the fight is over. That’s why it’s important that we choose the right fighter.

  • Jim Tomasik

    Can you imagine Obama defending Obamneycare in a debate and Herman Cain saying “If you had your Health Care Law in place a few years ago, I’d be dead today.” Then he explains why.

    That story contrasts perfectly vs Obama’s support of Obamneycare.

    Cain’s successful business history destroys the Obama administration’s failed policies.

  • Kyle-MI

    After all of the discussion and the backlash from “comprehensive” immigration reform, I would be surprised if Perry would propose it.

    It would be a good debate question, though. Why play around at guessing what his policy is with regard to amnesty, when they could just ask him straight forward.

    Alternatively, Perry could defuse the tuition issue by clearly stating what his amnesty policy would be.

  • carolynr

    Now about the immigration and the Dream Act. Perry and the entire legislature voted on the TEXAS DREAM ACT…NOT THE FEDERAL DREAM ACT.

    If Romney is allowed to mandate “SUBSIDIZED” GET THAT WORD…subsidized healthcare in MA….then Texas by vote of their governing body should be allowed to subsidize education at the expense of their residents. It’s a STATE’S RIGHT ISSUE.

    We have the Socialism Style of handouts…they are in Romney’s home state, Michigan. Detroit residents are just given…cell phones, food stamps, welfare…and it is generational. Romney did promise in 2008 that he would return jobs to Detroit…Good luck on that one Romney…because of handouts…the residents don’t care if they have a job. Public housing, etc. Besides, if GM were to create more jobs…THE DEMAND FOR $!50,000 cars would have to be way up there…BECAUSE WE ARE STUCK WITH UNIONS and UNION PENSIONS.

    If we have to bail out Texas…then this in-state tuition becomes OUR PROBLEM…otherwise…it belongs to the State of Texas. If they want Latino college students that can adapt to a myriad of jobs rather than a migrant worker…well, that is their business. Besides, those students have to be living in the state for three years and also working towards citizenship.

  • westcoastpatriette

    And am shocked how many conservatives make excuses for Perry’s wimpy stance on illegals. When people say there is nothing they can do because the feds allow all of this, I say bull. Just look at Az and some of the other proactive states for the answers. But what they are doing does require courage and a sense of loyalty to Americans and the rule of law–something Perry lacks on this issue.

    I am disappointed because I want to like him but I cannot reconcile his defense of illegals children. I think he is hiding the sympathy he feels for all of them and just won’t admit it. If he could get away with ignoring the problem and sabotaging attempts to enforce imm. laws if he were elected prez, I think he would–that’s my take on him at this point.

  • jedison

    I agree Romney has been walking around the rain drops at these debates, he has yet to get wet. Everyone keeps going after Perry –although given his performance, he makes an easy target.

    I would like to hear someone ask Romney about his stance on Global Warming.

  • ihateliberals

    Chirstie and Sarah Palin are our last hopes for decent conservative candidates. while a homeless guy with a 5th grade education that lives under abridge could beat Obama these GOP clowns are beginning to look and sound like 3rd graders.

  • carolynr

    Romney mis-characterized Perry again concerning SS. State Workers in…get this …the State of MA…..and in Louisiana have a different plan than SS and do not have to participate. Perry did not say that THE ONLY OPTION WAS TO GO BACK TO THE STATES. He clarified that on Hannity and he did in the debate…BUT NOBODY LISTENED. They just heard “style” instead of “substance”. So…when are we going to start listening,

  • carolynr

    Herman Cain was great. I really like Herman. However, I also know that there is a lot of bigotry out there….and it has been put on steroids with Obama and his racist statements. Yes…Obama’s racist statements…and for that matter…policies. Newt…excellent debater and great ideas. Will the DNC take him down on moral issues…YUP.

    We in the Republican Party want the “perfect” candidate. No flaws..and that is pie in the sky. That person does not exist. So, again, I say….look at the evidence. Here’ another little cute thing that the MSM has pulled…they introduce Cain as the Pizza Man. Herman Cain was the head of the Kansas City Fed…how many people know that…how many reporters say that…INCLUDING OUR SUPPOSED FOX NEWS…WHO IS IN THE CAN FOR ROMNEY. So much for Fair and Balanced

  • Doc Holliday

    the devil is the situation, not the people, and certainly not the kids. I have this vision that means a lot to me, I think it explains the illegals situation in Texas, and this country.

    Think of those old French paintings of early hot air ballooners. There is always picture of a run away balloon. There is this guy who holds onto the rope for dear life as the balloon goes higher and higher.

    This guy should let go, but he holds on in fright. But the longer he holds on, the more clear is his fate. It is the same with the illegal invasion. The longer politicians pass the buck, the more likely they can never deal with the issue. In many ways, the illegal invasion is a fait accompli. There are too many already here, and many of them vote regardless of the law. The politician doesn’t want to alienate people, so he just lets things slide.

    look at this Texas political map by county. See how all the “blue” counties are on the border? These are majority hispanic and they vote for Democrats. The blue is going to get larger and larger, and it seems no one is going to do a thing about it. http://capitolannex.com/archive/map-texas-presidential-results-by-county/

    The day might come when we are no longer a political site, but a historical site, like people talking about the Ancient Greeks.

  • ihateliberals

    I know they claimed they needed him to get the moderates and independents back then but Keeping him the second time around was stupid. because of that one mistake he allowed Bush to start tearing down everything that Reagan had done. Bush hated Reagan and did not believe in his policies. ” A Thousand Points of Light” my arse. Rarely did you ever see Reagan and Bush together. Reagan should have know after his Presidency tht who evere was his VP was going to win the next election. Bush then gave us Clinton. then baby Bush comes along and the only thing he did right was Attack Iraq and Afghanistan. His mistake was staying after he had destroyed them. They should have been left as rubble. While the rubble would still be trying to rebuild they would not have any time to be able to fight anyone through wr or terrorism. The Bush family withthe help of Michael Steele, Karl Rove and Dick Chenney did more destruction to the Republican party than anyone else in history.

  • carolynr

    I think…or he has changed his mind. Did you know that in 100 years, the average temperature has changed less than one degree. If Romney gets in…he’ll keep the EPA and go sign onto America supporting some Climate Change Treaty through the UN…betya

  • defenseconservative

    Choosing Bush as his VP nominee was the worst mistake Reagan had ever made. That paved the way for Bush to win the Presidency in 1988, and in just 4 years, Bush had managed to undo most of Reagan’s accomplishments.

    Reagan reportedly had to do this because the GOP Establishment reportedly threatened him that if he would not do that, they would not back him for President.

  • rightwingmom52

    but I really do see the same kind of optimism in Cain that Reagan did. How can you not be an optimist when you’re alive and kicking after the kind of scare he survived? I think Cain has the knack for telling folks they’re wrong in a nice way, much like Reagan did, and I don’t think he’ll compromise conservative principles. Cain’s my frontrunner, and I hope he gains more traction soon.

  • ihateliberals

    If you really think Obama is going to be the same 7 months from now then you don’t know what Obama and 1 billion campaign dollars can do. I am sick of hearing the GOP candidates just attack each other. I want to hear from them what they are going to do to overthrow Obama and his policies. whether or not Perry said this or Romney did that those things i already know and they just keep hammering them in the ground. I want to hear what each candidates plans are to recover America from the socialist, communist pigs that are in power right now. We need the debates but not this many back to back and not this early n the game. They are serving no purpose but to arm the Democrats when they start in January with the real attacks on the GOP.

  • carolynr

    This is the question…who can provide the evidence of what works. Now, if we look at Huntsman…you would think…WOW…his record in Utah is great. Of course it is…does anyone think that Mormans are criminal or don’t pay their taxes? Talk about being dealt four aces…Huntsman was working with a Royal Flush in Spades. If you were to take the Amish section of PA and make it a country…it would be the best example of work ethic there is.

    The question is…who helped enable job creation. One Answer…the only one up there with the high numbers…Perry. Besides..did you notice who he picked as his game show choice for VP…it was between Newt and Cain…Does that show good judgment? I think so. However…WHO DID ROMNEY PICK?

  • Jim Tomasik

    The urgency to get treatment for a loved one is something people can grasp and easily relate. The thought of having the government bureaucrat deciding who lives and who dies is hard to comprehend.

    I would be happy with either Cain or Perry.

  • aesthete

    In-state tuition is a racket, and the subsidies that states give their public universities are enormous. While I understand and agree with providing the children of illegals K-12 education, and with giving the children of illegals who have lived in the US for most of their lives an easy citizenship process, they are adults by the time that they are going to go to college. IMO, they can do something else (work, join the military, etc) while they try to become American citizens.

    BTW, nice to see you again.

  • forlinianslip

    Santorum forcefully posed the question to Perry,”Are your border security measures working?” which Perry dare not answer. The truthful answer is No!, but Perry couldn’t answer truthfully since his whole response to Santorum was predicated on his supposed expertise.

    Of course, Perry supporters deflect the implied criticism by saying that Santorum came of as angry. But I suspect only Perry supporters would think so.

    Dick Morris: ?Then there?s the guy who I think gave the best performance of the entire debate, Rick Santorum. I mean he really was strong and aggressive and made his point.s. He was a debator. He got in there, he mixed it up and fought hard. He was excellent in attacking others. He was excellent in making his case. And he was the only one who stood up for our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.?

    http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/one-candidate-decisively-won-the-debate-one-lost-who-was-who-dick-morris-tv-lunch-alert/

  • rcastonjr

    what really stinks is that they get in state tuition while out of state AMERICAN students must pay out of state tuition. THAT is wrong. They may be in state but they ain’t American. And I would be willing to bet that they get preferential admissions as well, just as minorities now do in colleges all over the country. Whites need not apply.

  • forlinianslip

    Santorum forcefully posed the question to Perry,”Are your border security measures working?” which Perry dare not answer. The truthful answer is No!, but Perry couldn’t answer truthfully since his whole response to Santorum was predicated on his supposed expertise.

    Of course, Perry supporters deflect the implied criticism by saying that Santorum came off as angry. But I suspect only Perry supporters would think so.

    Perry has looked bad in two debates. Ron Paul looked bad in the last debate. In both cases, it was Santorum who delivered the heavy blows.

    Dick Morris: ?Then there?s the guy who I think gave the best performance of the entire debate, Rick Santorum. I mean he really was strong and aggressive and made his points. He was a debator. He got in there, he mixed it up and fought hard. He was excellent in attacking others. He was excellent in making his case. And he was the only one who stood up for our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.?

    http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/one-candidate-decisively-won-the-debate-one-lost-who-was-who-dick-morris-tv-lunch-alert/

  • aesthete

    …

  • rcastonjr

    I have watched all of the debates and it seems to me that Perry has a tendency to avoid looking directly at the person he is talking about. Avoiding eye contact is a huge sign of weakness and insecurity. Debaters can be talking about him and to him but he stares straight ahead. Bad sign in my book.

  • Doc Holliday

    One thing I have not seen mentioned here is how oil, and land grants pay for the Texas and Texas A&M school systems. These systems cover many universities in the state, I am talking in the teens and twenties. I can’t believe “conservatives” say people don’t pay for it.

  • rcastonjr

    Gingrich has won every debate. Problem is that many of the media’s so-called second tier candidates have not been given anywhere close to equal time during these debates. Gingrich hits it out of the park every time he is thrown the ball. There is not a person on that stage that will win a debate against him one on one.

  • acat

    There’s documented cases of illegals having sued in instances where they’ve paid a tax – usually sales – but not received the benefit.

    Legally, if they’re paying the taxes that subsidize the institutions – and in Texas, that means sales taxes – and if the Federal government aren’t deporting them – and in Texas, they’ve gone to catch-and-release – then .. what else is Texas to do?

    President Obama handed Governor Perry lemons, Perry’s trying to make citizens ouf of ‘em instead of letting ‘em become permanent leeches.

    Show me what else Governor Perry could do.

    Mew

  • forlinianslip

    Weak after weak, Erickson sandbags Santorum with the most implausible criticisms and without providing justification, just like today’s comment: “Rick Santorum came off like a jerk. He was way too angry on every answer, even those times I fully agreed with him. He was just angry.”

    Not so.

    Ethical blogging requires at least some substance, and Erickson’s weekly assessments lack substance when it comes to Santorum.

    Yes, Perry looked bad. But it was hardly Romney who made him look bad. Rather, both in this debate and the previous debate, it was Santorum who made Perry look bad (same for Ron Paul at the last debate).

    Politically, I am more attuned with Erickson than Dick Morris, but Morris’ assessments of these debates have been consistently ethical–providing substantial assessments. Here’s Morris’ comment on Santorum :

    Dick Morris: ?Then there?s the guy who I think gave the best performance of the entire debate, Rick Santorum. I mean he really was strong and aggressive and made his point.s. He was a debator. He got in there, he mixed it up and fought hard. He was excellent in attacking others. He was excellent in making his case. And he was the only one who stood up for our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.?

    http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/one-candidate-decisively-won-the-debate-one-lost-who-was-who-dick-morris-tv-lunch-alert/

  • rcastonjr

    told us what was going to happen if we did not change course financially so he was, in retrospect, exactly right. Many of us fiscal conservatives voted for him since he was the only one concerned with the financial cliff the country was heading towards. Turns out he was right, everyone else was wrong.

  • streiff

    and find it wanting.

    When you think you can behave like an adult, hit the contact button and let us know that you’re going to stop posting crap like this. Until then, have a nice life.

  • Aaron Gardner

    I tend to agree with Erick that Santorum came off angry. Your disagreement doesn’t equate to Erick being unethical.

    Also, if you feel Dick Morris is an example of ethics personified, then ethics may not mean what you think it means.

  • Doc Holliday

    illegals need to go home. Do you guys have any clue what Mexico does with illegals? Can you guys name a single country that is kinder to illegals than the USA? I often complain that people don’t know their history, but they also don’t know their present. Why should the USA be a free for all when no other serious nation on earth even considers this?

  • Finrod

    .

  • Finrod

    Sarah Palin doesn’t need supporters here that trash Reagan’s 11th Commandment. I would prefer Palin over anyone currently running, but I also would be very happy to be voting for Perry come November 2012.

  • Doc Holliday

    no offense intended, I already know it is too late. What I said was for arguments sake, most on both sides don’t even realize their is no longer an argument to be had; but I do.

  • Finrod

    I can understand saying Gingrich is unelectable, but Cain? Why?

  • adair

    doesn’t keep opponents from criticizing something, and the MSM from saying, “Yeah, like they said!”

    But when you, Mike and Gekster, can make it plain WHY CAN’T GOVERNOR PERRY? Why in the world can’t he simply, plainly, briefly, succinctly lay this out so that it is clearly understandable to all who are watching the debate? Does he do any better in his various speeches? I haven’t watched that many.

  • kaheo

    Is Perry against the Federal DREAM Act which would allow these students to pursue citizenship? There’s currently no path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. Only the DREAM Act would allow them to get a job. So we allow them to go to school, then what?

  • Doc Holliday

    look at any world immigration map. The poor will always migrate to the wealthier nations and they will always be more fertile. Look at a world migration map. The Mexicans come to the South West USA, the Moroccans go to Spain, the Algerians to France, the Turks to Germany. These peoples are 3 times as fertile as Westerners. We can make laws, but they never stick, they will not stem the tide. There is a reversion to the mean. The poor will become wealthier and the wealthy will become poorer. Distinctive cultures will erode, particularly the Western Cultures, the cultures of people who do not procreate and do not teach their kids. The only word for this is DECADENCE. Same thing that brought down Ancient Rome.

    I will try to not get into these discussions in the future because they only cause me pain, and they are fruitless. This does not mean I am against immigrants, I know many legal and illegal and they are good people. What saddens me is a culture that doesn’t care enough to protect itself. Immigrants came to this country in droves and wanted to be Americans. Now, no one cares, certainly not enough people to make a difference. If I could change my life to a time in our past, I would do so.

  • Finrod

    It pulls the Romney establishment into the game, instead of leaving them hanging out there throwing bombs. Reagan did the same thing in 1980 with Bush Sr.

  • acat

    Please forgive me if I cause pain.

    1700s and 1800s – the poor of Europe and Asia came to our shores and were assimilated and built our nation.

    1800s – the poor of Europe and Asia went also to Australian shores and were assimilated and built their nation.

    The keyword in both is assimilated. We’ve gone from being a melting pot to being a TV dinner – every group in its’ own little metal-walled box.

    The problem isn’t the immigrants, that’s always been at most a 20-30 year blip. The problem is the lack of assimilation, fostered by liberals and multi-culti twits.

    Fortunately (from a certain point of view) they’re about to run out of money…

    Mew

  • Doc Holliday

    you are right, the problem is multiculturalism and liberal twits. The left dominates are schools, and too many parents just don’t care. We are taught that everyone is a winner, so why even try?

    I would gladly trade a hard working illegal for a liberal if we could pull it off. I have it, for every hard working illegal, we send a liberal to Venezuela or a La Raza type to Juarez?

  • red_oakster

    That for me is unelectable. He has no path to the nomination. The only president without elective office experience in the last hundred years is Eisenhower, And then you have to go back to U.S. Grant.

  • acat

    Otherwise, agree.

    (cheshire grin)

  • Doc Holliday

    Chavez.

  • acat

    Perry has taken some hard positions over the objections of the Texas legislature. Opposing the “Amazon Tax”, for instance.

    Sometimes he’s won, sometimes he’s lost, sometimes he’s made bad calls and had to walk them back. (see Gardasil)

    That’s not a flip-flopper. It’s a politician.

    As no archangels have put their hats in the ring, we’re stuck voting for mere mortals. Do you have one you like more than Perry or Romney?

    Mew

  • acat

    20 million people?

    What will it cost?

    How many man-hours will it take to hunt them all down?

    How much real estate will have to be purchased or taken via eminent domain to build a border fence – most of the border runs across private property.

    How much real estate will we need for holding facilities?

    Do you have a plan to increase the number of judges? There will be lawsuits, I’ll stake my life on that.

    Got an estimate for labor and materials to build an impermeable barrier on our southern border?

    Mew

  • acat

    Nothing further.

  • red_oakster

    I think Ryan might reconsider. I also think Palin might get in. And if Palin gets in, Guiliani might well get in.

  • ihateliberals

    Mormons on average are conservatives and Romney is the exception to that. he doesn’t even propose things that the church would support for example Romneycare. If he can’t be a good Mormon why would I want him to be President? Romney at best is RINO and at worst is a Liberal Republican. Neither of these do I want in office anywhere. I still say we are having too many debates too close together and the agenda for the Debates is not being set by the people but the media. The media loves to see them just pick each other apart. I’m tired of that approach and they aren’t telling me anything I don’t know about each of them. Plus just like in Perry’s situation with Soc. Sec. That is a non-issue for a President. this si an issue for the congress because they are the only ones that can make or break it so how any of them feel about SS doesn’t matter to me and I am retired disability on Soc Sec. So anyone over 50 years old should not worry or care what any of the candidates have to say about that subject. It’s not gong to change in our life times.

  • LibertyWins

    If you stop Americans from illegally hiring illegal aliens, the illegal aliens will simply go home free of charge.

  • LibertyWins

    Only immigrants from Europe came to the US and Australia and founded and built these nations. Asians played virtually no part in that until the 20th Century. Remember that immigration was legally restricted to free Whites in both countries until well after World War Two.

    Agreed on multiculturalism.

  • acat

    for the rectal exam this would mean the IRS is allowed to give everyone, to ensure nobody’s paying under the table?

    Do you really want to account for where every one of your dollars gets spent so some government drone can certify that you’re not paying illegals to do lawn care or wash your car?

    And no, they won’t all go home. The ones whose money comes from the black market – i.e. the gangs and trafficers in humans and drugs will still be here since they don’t give a {copulation} about the IRS anyway.

    Do please try again, though.

    Mew

  • acat

    The illegal in your hypothetical is required to have resided in Texas, paying sales taxes and real estate taxes in Texas, for 3 years.

    The legal, on the other hand, has contributed neither jack nor squat to the Texas economy.

    Your beef is with the Feds for not deporting the illegal, not with Perry for handling this in a way that requires an application for citizenship before it ended up in some courtroom….

    Mew

  • Doc Holliday

    I had a response but I give up. you guys win, Perry was right. Life is too short. I regret coming back here, I really do.

  • Vegas_Rick

    where the Good Lord split ya!

  • acat

    I agree that the situation sucks.

    It’s sucked since the U.S. first decided to not enforce the border.

    It’s sucked since Caesar Chavez led his United Farmworkers to go thump the illegals taking their jobs.

    It’s sucked since Bush dumped a ton of money into a “smart fence” that accomplished nothing.

    Not sure why Perry trying to make the best of a bad situation when he cannot change the situation is his fault.

    Perry can’t seal the Texas border without spending quite a bit of money beefing up the Rangers or Texas State Police. Note that Perry is doing some of this, just .. not all.

    Perry can’t deport anyone. At all. Texas can contact ICE, but ICE have been practicing catch-and-release for years now. The paper tiger is revealed as tissue.

    Perry could have asked for an Arizona SB 1070 style law that would require reporting more people to the ICE, but if the ICE aren’t going to take action, why bother?

    I’m sorry to see you go, Doc, but .. I do think you’re complaining about the wrong thing here. The fault does not appear to be with Perry, it appears to be, if anything, with the distance from Dallas to D.C.

    Happy trails.

    Mew

  • Doc Holliday

    I am just tired of this conversation. I have been at it all day, having to deal with people abandoning what they said a few months ago for political expediency and this flea Vegas lol.

    I am tired of the conversation, I think it is bringing out the worst in us. I know you are consistent, so at least make these socons say they are not libertarian on the issue, I would really like to see that, I you, I, and Aesthete deserve that lol. Make then apologize and call themselves libertarian for the day, not just people stretching their beliefs in order to fit some guy.

    I have very personal reason for thinking Perry is wrong. I was in Texas way before he was governor. I know people who were affected by this issue, and I know 99 percent of the people here spouting off were not!

    and I know he lied about the dole and he lied about the path to citizenship, it is not true, does that still matter? I mean, this is not a debate over should pot be illegal, this is fact vs fiction. If you believe illegals should get in state tuition, even though they can legally work after graduation, then fine, just say it. Don’t lie Perry and say it is because they are on a “path to citizenship” and you want to “keep them off the dole”. What pisses me off is people I normally respect are lying to themselves, not you, i know you are clear on this issue, but the socons and others.

  • acat

    For the record, I do disagree regarding the “path to citizenship”. The wheels at ICE grind exceedingly slow.

    Worked with a guy who was here on an H1B. Great family man, very dedicated to his job, busted his {tail} to make things work, did his part and more to keep our herd of cats mostly heading in the same direction.

    Took him close to a decade to get from H1B to green card. After his first application, which was made from his home country, he never left the U.S. Every subsequent application was made by going to his governments’ embassy in Chicago, or to the local ICE building.. also in Chicago.

    Last time I checked, college is 4-12 years, depending on the desired degrees and the money available to pay for it. Assuming ICE grinds at the same speed, these kids are going to be waiting until well after their AA, BA, and MBA degrees to get citizenship.

    As to your previous statement regarding the armed services, that’s another valid route to citizenship, and a way out of the ghetto; all of the service members who played taps at my uncle’s funeral recently – my aunt had considered not asking for the ceremony even though he’d served, I talked her around.. afterward she agreed I was right – were minorities.

    Because we don’t have a boots-intensive war on, there’s not as much demand for soldier-citizens. Besides, last time I checked, ya had to be a legal immigrant to join up so it leaves these 18-year-old illegals {simply} out of luck anyway.

    Mew

  • Doc Holliday

    and serve a serious stint, at least 6 years or combat, should be put on a path to citizenship. Our immigration situation is like our debt, it was made crazy over a long, long period, and will be very hard to fix. I know many immigrants and don’t ask them their personal status, the ones I know and deal with work much harder than the native Americans I know. Most of the native Americans hang out at Daily Kos or watch American Idol, and bitch.

    From what I can tell, those that are political militants come from California, are well educated, and have been here for generations. Just like their non minority counterparts.

    All I want is for people to love this nation as we do. If we get that, I will be very happy and hopeful for the next generations.

  • Vegas_Rick

    that illegals are inelligible for enlistment into the US Armed Forces. I spent 10 years as an Army Recruiter and, unless the law was change very recently, a green card is a minimum requirement.

  • acat

    Of course, I see lots of signs of death … but some of that is covered by Bismark’s applicable quote.

    Mew

  • papabear

    Santorum was not “forceful”. He was beyond rude. He interrupted Perry many times – he was the only one who got warned by the moderators. He also started to protest that he wasn’t getting enough attention (again).

    I am not stuck on Perry. I was very unimpressed with his performance last night. His views on illegal immigration are very disturbing.

    My top 2 used to be Cain & Bachmann. When Perry came in, I had hopes that he would be a better choice. Since then, Bachmann has exposed her feckless mouth and attitudes to the world. Cain wobbled early on, but I am starting to think he might be a better choice than Perry.

  • Doc Holliday

    lol, I see signs of life too. The progressives do not procreate much, that can only be a good.

  • acat

    that’s often misattributed to Churchill for some stupid reason.

    Mew

  • acat

    Completed in 1869, much of the construction labor from San Francisco working eastward was Chinese in origin.

    Please try again.

    Mew

  • Doc Holliday

    hmm, i thought it was Churchill.

    you know the one about journalists though, ” journalist is someone who missed his calling”.

  • septembergurl

    He’s a RINO who makes Giuliani look like Jim deMint. If you want him to run, that’s fine, but he’s well to the left of Romney.

    ‘d be very curious to know what positions make up your “conservatism”.

  • AceInTX

    paying instate tuition when a US citizen from Arkansas, Louisiana or Oklahoma is charged more is grating and the visual’s here lend themselves to demagoguery.

  • acat

    and I think Jeb Bush is the only one who could conceivably jump in this late and still win. Palin? Ryan? Giuliani? Not so much. The simple legal fact is the registration date for the early primary states start popping in early October.

    Ryan can’t afford to pass up the free press that comes from a late-entrant splash in New Hampshire and Iowa, but .. even there, the late entrant has to have enough money to make a splash, and there’d be rumors if he were trying to shake the money tree. That probably applies to Giuliani and Jeb as well.

    Palin, on the other hand, would likely use either her own money or an actual moneybomb.

    Palin, Giuliani, and Jeb could bypass the free press, skip the meat markets that are Iowa and New Hampshire and enter in time for South Carolina or – especially for Jeb – jump in before Florida.

    It’s not like the first couple primaries allocate that many delegates, it’s theoretically possible to let Perry and Romney et al bash each other a while longer, drain their war chests trying to buy up Iowa, and then try to swamp ‘em.

    All that said, this would be a serious long-shot strategery, and .. again, other than Jeb Bush, who’s probably still able to win easily in Florida and *maybe* Palin, I don’t see it as workable.

    Mew

  • acat

    My nephew wants to go out of state. He asked me for help since his parents are struggling. I said “Find out what it takes to get residency”, then talk to me.

    I agree, it’s a bad visual, but .. it’s not one that we can change.

    What Perry should be doing, instead of his awful W impersonation, is saying “No, it’s a taxpayer and Texas resident and future citizen paying in-state rates, as the people of Texas decided they should.”

    Someone needs to get to Perry’s people and slap some sense into them.

    Mew

  • AceInTX

    you make a more compelling argument than Perry has on this issue and one the would make it easier to swallow than the one he presented last night

  • AceInTX

    He’s obstinately sticking to positions that are losers…but he damn sure isn’t waffling

  • onemovoter

    Or maybe replace Perry with Acat since Acat has so much common sense and pragmatism.

    Either that or have Acat somehow remote control Perry..lol.

  • gunsrus

    rate for citizens of this country you may have worthwhile program outlined here! Put a bounty on them and they will be turning each other in for the peso’s!

  • porkandcheese

    I’d take Perry’s character over Romney’s political calculations any day.

  • porkandcheese

    Of course there are federal laws supporting students pursuing naturalization.

  • acat

    I’m a libertarian-leaning cat, and would do quite a bit by executive order on day one, go on vacation for a month, and let the chips fall where they may. Guam’s nice in January, right?

    Mew

  • ibelieveinfreedom

    I would love to see a debate without Perry or Romney. I have no intention of voting for either one and would like to see some of the other candidates have a chance to get their messages out. The media seems to be picking the winners and losers and not allowing the people to make a choice. I think Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich, Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum are worthy of an opportunity to debate each other without the showboating of Perry and Romney. Ron Paul is just a lunatic but I guess it would hurt to have a separate debate for him Huntsman and Johnson. But with 8-9 people on the stage at one time the majority actually get ignored. Erick, I’m sure you could set up something better.

  • Remington_Steele

    is that on or very near to the day Gingrich announces his Contract with America, Palin will ride in on her bus and announce that she may be running for President and will let everyone know very soon. :|

  • Remington_Steele

    that Obama would eat Perry’s lunch in a debate.

  • Remington_Steele

    that Obama would eat Perry’s lunch in a debate.

  • porkandcheese

    Toe-sucking sacred honor!

  • Finrod

    Nothing of actual substance, then.

  • Ryan Larsen

    Hey, Romney is a great guy too, not just a great debater. :)

  • cjf99b

    Wrong. In-state tuition doesn’t cost the state of Texas a damn thing. Less than 1% of these students even qualify for program and most of that 1% are in community college or trade schools (which has flat tuition rate regardless of resident status) It simply allows those kids that have followed the rules and want to better themself to pay at state rates without having to wait for US citizen process (which I hear takes 5-7 years) It doesn’t force anyone to buy anything or negatively effect the cost or quality of the service. Can you say the same for Romneycare?

  • kaheo

    for legal immigrants who are students, yes and they’re very limited if I may say. If illegals currently have a path to citizenship if they enroll in college then that would mean that the DREAM Act is irrelevant and not necessary! To go through naturalization, you have to first adjust your status from illegal to legal. There’s no provision currently in federal law that allows illegal immigrants to convert to legal status just because they now have a bachelors/masters/phd degree. I wish that were the case, but unfortunately its not. This applies only to students who’ve come here on F1 status or other non-immigrant visas that allow for dual-intent via H1-B visa!

  • LibertyWins

    How do you propose to resolve the problem, amnesty? Open borders?

    I expect more from such a wise cat.