I’m a bit shocked by this excellent Coffee & Markets interview with Ambassador Jon Huntsman.
Believe it or not, outside of his crummy campaign messaging (“I believe in science”) and the debates, this is a guy who actually sounds conservative. I have to wonder if there are two Jon Huntsmans out there — the conservative and the liberal going to different events.
If nothing else, he certainly sounds to the right of Mitt Romney on a number of core issues, including healthcare and the environment. Yes, I know! The same Jon Huntsman who did the pact with Ahnuld on global warming sounds to the right of Romney.
This begs a serious question — is his campaign message just that far off kilter? Because in this interview, away from sound bites and debate one liners, this guy sounds reasonably conservative. That raises another question worth asking. Is it just Rick Perry who is having disastrous debate performances? They are killing Jon Huntsman with the base. His snotty one liners and bad jokes just rub conservatives (me included) wrong. But listen to this interview and you’ve got a small government, free market guy.
Where’s the disconnect? Someone might want to ask John Weaver.
Moe Lane
Dan McLaughlin
Dan Spencer
Jeff Emanuel
Neil Stevens
Maybe he's just like Perry
Bill S (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 10:57AM EDT (link)His 1:1 messages are solid, but he just can’t debate.
“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins
If that were his only problem
edintexas Monday, November 14th at 11:18AM EDT (link)He’d be running with Perry back when. But he buys into the Climate Change scam at a time when the Republican John Q. Public already found out about the efforts to cover up the scam and doesn’t trust politicians who buy the deal.
His position on immigration is suspect by the GOP faithful also. And anyone who accepted a job with Dear Leader has two strikes going into the at bat.
But if he were a good debater (when there hasn’t been a debate yet, just answering reporters questions on a serial basis)…
Climate change is not a scam; we'd do well to remember that.
juumanistra (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 11:57AM EDT (link)It is possible for one to objectively look at the evidence and conclude that global temperatures are rising. It is also possible to come to the conclusion that such are the result primarily of increased emissions of CO2 following the Industrial Revolution. It is even possible that one could accept the IPCC’s modeling and that, barring substantial emissions reductions, the world will see sea level rises of 20′ and the flooding of the great cities of the East and West Coasts. I do not, but I recognize that reasonable folks can come to to differing opinions when analyzing large, complex systems. So I certainly do not hold it against Huntsman if he believes in anthropogenic global warming. (For our purposes, lets assume that he does, and that his various actions over the years indicate a heartfelt principle rather than pandering to the green fad.)
Huntsman’s problem is not that he believes in anthropogenic global warming per se, but that he has been unable to find a way of talking about the issue that is not crass and condescending to those who disagree with him. It’s that he has bought the environmental movement’s framing of the issue: That those who are not stalwarts of anthropogenic global warming are anti-science rubes, animated by superstition or animus for reason. Hence wonderful one-liners like “I believe in science,” as if everyone who dared question anthropogenic global warming’s assumptions were fresh off the turnip truck.
Huntsman’s also got policy issues out the wazoo on this particular subject, given that he was part of the vanguard in pushing for cap-and-trade. But that’s a separate issue from his messaging woes on the topic.
juumanistra - Occam says it's an effect of the variable star, not humans...
acat (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 12:07PM EDT (link)that our planet is orbiting.
The earth is not a closed system. The sun provides a good bit of energy to us.
The sun was in a phase of decreased output back in the ’60s, led to a number of articles on global cooling and the coming ice age. The sun went through a period of increased output in the late ’90s, but it has since cooled down a bit.
I reject your attempt to validate AGW. If things are warming up or cooling off, one should check what the furnace is doing, eh?
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
I don't disagree with you, my good feline.
juumanistra (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 12:27PM EDT (link)Heliogenic global warming also conveniently explains why similar phenomenon have been witnessed on Mars and Jupiter. But, ultimately, what precisely one believes is the cause of climate change — or whether it’s occurring at all — is irrelevant. What matters is the policy prescriptions, if any, you believe should be taken if and when the effects of climate change come to pass. And what those policy prescriptions are constitutes a discrete issue from that of the question of whether global warming is occurring and what its source is.
To return to the topic of this diary once more, this is part-and-parcel of Huntsman’s problems. He has, thus far, been unable to untangle the two questions and has stuck his foot in his mouth for his trouble.
Had Huntsman said "Heliogenic" ...
acat (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 12:58PM EDT (link)much could have been avoided.
I take the position that, as the most likely explanation is heliogenic, as opposed to man-made, and as spaceweather.com reports that old sol has returned to a lower energy level, that no government policy “solutions” to correct “global warming” are needed.
In fact, such solution-via-policy decisions may be counter-productive in that we’ll have to get rid of them and move in the opposite direction if we’re headed for a minim. (the hypothetical Gore Minim) At this point, Huntsman is already off on a very different path from me.
I trust I’ve shown I’m not an anti-science rube, as you chose to put it. (lettin’ it slide)
I see no reason to believe that someone who can’t make the simple case for heliogenic change – given the relatively long historical record of both sunspot activity and temperatures, known and measurable time frames for energy transfer from the sun to the earth, as well as the observed changes on other planets – to get the policy-is-unnecessary part right.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
look man made climate change is far from settled
center77 (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 5:52PM EDT (link)and Huntsman is full of hubris on the issue.
My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
Mitt Romney 2012, but not without the truth of who he is.
www.timothy-bladel.com
“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewell address (January 11, 1989)
Huntsman and Science
esquip17 Tuesday, November 15th at 6:26AM EDT (link)I think that’s fair. Really, the only difference between that position and Rick Perry’s is subjective. Fine, we believe in science. We should have overwhelming evidence before we let it influence the economy. Huntsman is a conservative. It’s all a question of marketing. This illusion of him being a liberal is an example of how the liberal bias works against itself sometimes.
Huntsman destroys the strawman the media hopes to create that all conservatives are doltish, believers in absolute faith, and bull headed bigots.
Huntsman is libertarian on a few issues that aren’t important anyway, and Chris Mathews loves him. What? states rights on abortion, civil unions, liberal immigration, (are we not the party of capitalism and free trade?) and all of a sudden, he gets to hang out at acorn?
Flat taxation, pro business, pro growth, anti regulation. These issueas are what makes a conservative. This forum is so full of Perry blather they have defined conservative out of existence.
If the liberals are so scientific?, Why did they vote for the Easter Bunny?
For me, I think Huntsman is certainly more conservative than Romney
bornafterreagan Monday, November 14th at 11:15AM EDT (link)And I’m also relatively sure that Huntsman is more electable than Perry or Cain.
And he might even be more electable than Romney.
I’m interested in a blend of the two attributes. Electability and conservatism are both extremely important. Huntsman isn’t the most conservative candidate, I don’t think. But he’s one of the most electable, and he’s not the least conservative either.
I dunno. I’d be happy with any of these candidates against Obama. But I think Huntsman’s got good attributes.
I dont know why people think conservative mean unelectable
center77 (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 5:59PM EDT (link)its really the opposite, the polls showing Romney neck to kneck with Obama are a joke. This is is while the left really only attacks him to help him. What matters will be record and excitement for the base. Independents will go with who they think can fix the economy, when the red media rallys behind a guy with a record, the numbers will move. There is a reason the left hates Perry so much, because his record contrast with Obama in ways no one else can. It’s called creating jobs under a bad economy. It’s really that simple.
My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
Mitt Romney 2012, but not without the truth of who he is.
www.timothy-bladel.com
“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewell address (January 11, 1989)
Here's why
esquip17 Tuesday, November 15th at 6:34AM EDT (link)Yes, we love conservative. But we have to win the election to do anything. We have a population in which the liberal media control things to an unprecedent degree. They will frame the issues. With the blogosqhere, we can counter the trend, but let’s be frank; 70% of voters believe taxing millionaires seems reasonable. Indipendants elect the president, not conservatives. Conservatives with strong leadership can sway indipendants, but not always. The media will try to scare and demigogue the issues. You have to position yourself.
Also, never forget
daveoconnor (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 12:00PM EDT (link)it takes some thought and study to hang out the “conservative” shingle. We live in a country that has been dumbed down to the point where a fair percentage of our fellow citizens buy into the notion that the government is smarter than the folks. Who buy into “free” healthcare and more money means better educational results. Etc.
Poor messaging extends to all aspects of his campaign
sethellis Monday, November 14th at 11:37AM EDT (link)It’s not just debates. Huntsman has been plagued by poor messaging from the beginning. Even his announcement was terribly botched. His debate answers are just the clearest examples of this. It’s not just his stupid jokes and base insuting comments either.
The thing that bothers me the most about his answers are his introductions. Each answer has a short intro like he was writing a high school paper. They waste time, and bore us. By the time he gets to the actual answer nobody cares anymore.
He is not a serious candidate. He is just running to increase his stature in the party.
Huntsman flipped on school choice pretty badly.
teme Monday, November 14th at 11:53AM EDT (link)Anyway Utah both chambers are over 75% Republican. Not governing there conservatively is practically impossible.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/60708.html
“Vouchers are my main issue, too!” Huntsman replied. “Vouchers are the reason I am running for governor.” He waxed enthusiastically, “I want to go down in history as the voucher governor.” (These are direct quotes, to which I have two witnesses.)
On the strength of his display of conviction, I donated $75,000 to Huntsman’s campaign — becoming (I believe) his largest financial backer.
—–
I thought that this was your ‘main issue’, and ‘the reason you ran for governor’?” Huntsman replied with only a text: “Campaigning for vouchers is outside my comfort zone.”
Softball questions, softball answers
renl57 Monday, November 14th at 12:16PM EDT (link)The “Coffee & Markets” interview just happened to ask Jon Huntsman a few questions where he could sound conservative–if you don’t listen too closely.
Here are 4 questions to Mr. Huntsman whose answers would show he’s no conservative:
1. Mr. Huntsman, what is your assessment of the Obama Administration after its first 3 years? Name two things you think President Obama did right, and two things you think President Obama did wrong.
2. Mr. Huntsman, you have said you agree that anthropogenic global warming (AGW) is a real phenomenon. How much of an effort should the United States make to deal with AGW, and how much would it cost?
3. Mr. Huntsman, you just said that you want us to move to “a new energy economy.” How does that vision of the future differ from President Obama’s?
4. Mr. Huntsman, in 2009 you said that you believed that President Obama’s $780 billion stimulus package was not big enough. Do you believe that President Obama’s new “jobs plan” is too big or too small?
I’ll bet you that you wouldn’t consider Huntsman a conservative, after he answered those 4 questions.
On your question number 3
septembergurl (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 1:14PM EDT (link)I would direct you to Huntsman’s *widely ignored* speech in which he laid out his energy policy.
You can watch here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKZO880781s
Here is a summary: http://www.jon2012.com/index.php/issues/energy-security
His first point deals with expanding domestic energy exploitation. This includes drilling in Alaska, Gulf of Mexico and other offshore sources, the Bakken oilfields and oil shale extraction via fracking. Development of fuels not OPEC-controlled, including biofuels and coal tars. Wind and solar not viable energy sources.
drilling and fracking. No green energy. Yeah, that sounds like Obama.
His second proposal is to replace oil with natural gas as a transportation fuel. we are to natural gas as Saudi Arabia is to oil, but oil has a monopoly on transportation. govt action required on this.
third, back to his basic argument (which he made again today) that we will not recover our pre eminent role as the worlds greatest economy without bringing back our manufacturing sector, which in turn depends on cheap, reliable energy.
So, Conservative and market oriented. Just like Obama.
Sleep walking towards disaster
elayman Monday, November 14th at 12:33PM EDT (link)Who the hell cares what Huntsman thinks about global warming or whether he has a wry sense of humor that sometimes goes over the head of the audience ? Those are footnote distractions in this race. This is a candidate on record that cap-n-trade doesn’t work and conservative about everything else every time he opens his mouth. He is also attracting a ton of moderate support for being a clean, decent, likable guy. Every other candidate is flat out unelectable and the right wing has hated on the one that could most easily win for four months. I totally don’t get it.
A queston elayman.
gekster (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 12:38PM EDT (link)Can you state here why you think the others are unelectable.
Can you make a list as to each one why you think that they can’t win.
Not a gotcha question, I just would like to see your views.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Consistency, clarity and conviction
elayman Monday, November 14th at 1:50PM EDT (link)Taking from the Huntsman credo of attributes leadership requires:
Consistency, clarity and conviction – Romney and Gingrich are (or should be) unelectable because they are morally deficient in 1 and 3 – in spades and in both their public and private lives. Perry and Cain will lose by an even larger margin due to their painfully obvious lack of 1, 2, or 3 – actually any record of competent or experienced governing whatsoever hiding behind that affable persona.
His biggest problem is obviously a lack of name recognition with half the country…but that was also the case with Cain before the Tea Party took up his cause. And Jon is as or more conservative than any of them.
So you put up three words,
gekster (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 2:36PM EDT (link)assign them to candidates, and that’s it.
I was seeking more of an explanation than colum a, b, or c.
You can do better, can’t you.
I was thinking you could give examples for each of the claims.
Anyone can throw out words.
Few can explain why.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
A farmer boy turned president: I think thats a complete distortion
center77 (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 6:08PM EDT (link)Perry has done 1 & 3 almost perfectly, and has for 2 they claimed Reagan did not have a clear message in 1980: but that turned out to be very false. plus character and record matters, story also matters a lot. A farmer boy turned president, where have we heard that before.
My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
Mitt Romney 2012, but not without the truth of who he is.
www.timothy-bladel.com
“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewell address (January 11, 1989)
Here's why
renl57 Monday, November 14th at 3:08PM EDT (link)Q: “The argument that decent, quality affordable health care is not a right, but a privilege? Is health care a right?”
HUNTSMAN: I think health care is a right. And I think we’re not doing enough in terms of providing that which our citizens need.”
Q: “What is your take on the stimulus? Will you take all the money?’
HUNTSMAN: “It’s easy to criticize the bill and if you don’t like it, you don’t have to take the money. It’s pretty simple. I guess in hindsight we can all say that there were some fundamental flaws with it. It probably wasn’t large enough and, number two, there probably wasn’t enough stimulus effect.”
So the main thing wrong with Obama’s $787 billion stimulus package was it wasn’t large enough??? That puts him on the same page as Paul Krugman and the New York Times editors.
[While Huntsman went on to suggest there should have been more tax cuts, he never said that there should not have been massive government spending, which was a key part of the Obama stimulus package.]
He's not wrong, you know.
juumanistra (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 3:39PM EDT (link)Huntsman’s critique is basically correct: If you are going to engage in Keynesian stimulus as a replacement for aggregate demand, then you have to actually meet or exceed the aggregate demand you’re seeking to replace. Even at the time the ARRA was being considered, the consensus amongst those who venerate Keynes was that you needed at least $1,000bn pumped into the economy, though depending on who you read, it sometimes jumped upwards to $2,000bn. The $787bn fell well short of that, and did so over an excessively long timeline. We can debate whether countercyclical stimulus spending is a good idea — spending of which I am not a fan — but if we’re going to bother with it, we ought to make damn sure it’s on the scale necessary to do what it’s intended to do.
His second point is also correct, in that if you’re going to bother with stimulus spending, it ought to actually be stimulative in the Keynesian sense. Roughly a third of the ARRA’s spending went to demand-side stimulus via tax rebates; another third went towards backstopping state and local budgets. Given the history of the former and the transparently political nature of the latter, it’s little wonder that the ARRA failed on the scale it did.
Huntsman is not only more conservative than
septembergurl (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 2:10PM EDT (link)Romney. He is, by any objective standards, more conservative than Cain and Gingrich. Perry, Santorum and Bachmann I will concede. But that places Huntsman in the middle of an overall conservative field.
why then does he fail to register on conservatives and less involved republicans?
I too am unable to figure out the way that Huntsman has presented himself. Is it a good strategy poorly executed? A bad strategy? Does it really come down to the evil influence of Weaver, as Erick thinks?
I was surprised at how poorly both Perry and Huntsman have performed in the debates. They both entered the campaign late and did not seem to grasp the centrality of the debates in the ongoing campaign. they are both experienced and successful politicians and I assumed they would dominate more than they have. Perry has recovered with a workmanlike performance on Saturday that restored his standing somewhat, though I don’t find it as redemptive as some here do. Huntsman has overcome his nervousness, which led to jokes and esoteric references that did not help his presentation. Saturday was his best debate, partly because it focused on foreign policy, yet he has not achieved the kind of rapport he needs to win over the audience, let alone scored any major debating points. “Less annoying than Santorum” is a pretty low bar.
kowalski (messaging)
septembergurl (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 2:48PM EDT (link)Big media buy in Boston/NH media market by Huntsman’s Superpac:
You can see the ad here:http://ourdestinypac.com/
Kind of a who is John Galt routine. I get it, making a virtue of Huntsman’s obscurity. It promotes his conservatism . Pretty good ad, I think.
Less an ambassador, more a politician
elayman Monday, November 14th at 3:55PM EDT (link)He’s got a lot of chicken and egg problems going, but a big one IMO is that in order to start gaining real traction in NH Huntsman needs something at least resembling a base of support nationally. A McCain strategy in one state without the name recognition or viability behind it only feeds the negative feedback loop of poor funding that leads to struggling for attention credibility and ultimately confidence.
Yep.
septembergurl (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 4:51PM EDT (link)1. Failure to reach out to conservative alternative media. Huntsman has been on Hannity and Greta, and they like him, but that’s not enough.
2. failure to develop a base of support as a national candidate.
Pretty big miscalculations. But the continuing lack of enthusiasm for Romney, the very real likelihood of Newt cratering, and the fact that Huntsman has deep pockets keep him viable. But just through substance and persistence he should at least be in the Bachmann-Paul range, not in the basement.
The right exposure!
elayman Monday, November 14th at 7:12PM EDT (link)Huntsman’s biggest tactical error I think came in not bankrolling a more coordinated media blitz at his roll out that would have put the country on notice that this was a serious candidate with a different message determined to pull out all the stops for an all or nothing campaign. They would have taken a hit from the media and conservative activists who hated him from the get-go for being a billionaires son, but it would have been more than made up with a simultaneous knock to both Romney and Obama.
Although even with the wild over-spending through July and miscalculations on other candidates caving, the campaign has been run old school too far and most of the country unfortunately still doesn’t have the foggiest idea who this guy is.
Hannity with the candidate, not his daughters, should have been a bigger game changer, Hopefully going on O’Reilly this Friday will once and for all wake the crowds up and make a contest out of this insanity. And no more talk of global warming, tweets or bad jokes !
Also go on Erick Erickson"s candidate forum
septembergurl (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 8:04PM EDT (link)Whatever form it takes. I’m sure it would be interesting. I have watched some of Rep Tim Scott’s (SC) candidate forums. Bachmann, Huntsman, Perry appeared (solo) and answered questions with an audience. Perry was great (this was very early). Huntsman played piano and Scott sang.
Naturally, Mittens has declined to appear.
Keep your eyes on the Prize:
uhangtight (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 2:23PM EDT (link)The Senate. If we do not win the Senate, it doesn’t matter who is President. If we have a super majority, it doesn’t matter who is President.
Keep your eyes on the Prize: the Senate. We need to take back the Senate, then it doesn’t matter who is President, if all legislation is veto proof. If we at least maintain a Majority in both Houses of the Legislature then any RINO will do and it will not matter.
Yes, Huntsman is a RINO, too. Good Golly Folks.
Without a strong candidate at the top
septembergurl (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 4:54PM EDT (link)control of the Senate is not a given. Plenty of races like Virginia and Missouri that will be close and a weak candidate could cost. Massachusetts is the only R seat in doubt but that is going to be close at best. The Dems are pouring in $$$ to elect Warren. Nevada is another that we should win.
We are nowhere near a veto-proof Senate in 2012, so your
JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 1:33PM EDT (link)logic is absolutely flawed.
It takes 67 Senators to override a veto. I know there are people hopeful that we can get to 60. I haven’t heard anyone make a viable prediction for 67.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Erik, Huntsman I thought it funny you
center77 (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 5:47PM EDT (link)started talking about huntsman. you see I’m a conservative independent, when this election season started I was leaning huntsman because of his record, until Perry got it. I choose Perry because he would make a stronger president. Huntsman has for awhile been a second choice, but he has turned me off with his pandering, a when the left started professing its love for him, I really began to worry.
My name is Timothy Bladel. I’m from Davenport, Iowa. I am a Undergraduate, Double Majoring in Journalism & Mass communication, with my other major being political science. I am conservative in nature, sometimes a tad bit libertarian; the Tenth Amendment is vital to changing this country for the better.
Mitt Romney 2012, but not without the truth of who he is.
www.timothy-bladel.com
“We the people” tell the government what to do, it doesn’t tell us. We the people are the driver, the government is the car. And we decide where it should go, and by what route, and how fast.” Ronald Reagan’s farewell address (January 11, 1989)
The problem is not poor messaging...
westbrook348 Monday, November 14th at 8:25PM EDT (link)Huntsman’s problem is that he supported TARP and wanted a bigger 2009 stimulus. The two key issues of the Tea Party, he was on the wrong side.
Big on the lip service and ideals, but very short of action.
elayman Monday, November 14th at 10:01PM EDT (link)Under that criteria of excluding who voted, would have voted or supported from their actions TARP or the stimulus have fun with Bachmann and Santorum….
You're forgetting someone
westbrook348 Monday, November 14th at 11:11PM EDT (link)Ron Paul supported neither TARP nor stimulus, and wants to cut $1 trillion from next year’s budget.
He's very forgettable. -nt-
Bill S (Diary) Monday, November 14th at 11:13PM EDT (link).
“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins
Yeah you're probably right...
westbrook348 Monday, November 14th at 11:26PM EDT (link)Ron Paul is pretty forgettable. Almost as forgettable as the Department of Energy or Obama’s Libya policy.
Dr. Paul deserves better
elayman Tuesday, November 15th at 2:37AM EDT (link)than the company of those two…not the nomination, though. He and Huntsman are the only ones on the stage not pandering. Jon is just the only one who could get elected that’s not pandering.
Ron Paul is the worst panderer of the lot
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 3:39AM EDT (link)He’s the biggest porker on stage.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Sorry. I don't "do" Jon Huntsman
clintonformccain Monday, November 14th at 10:16PM EDT (link)I never miss an episode of Coffee and Markets. I made a conscious decision at the start of this primary season that life is too short to waste time listening to Jon Huntsman, Rick Santorum, and Michelle Bachman. So, I turn the channel when any of them are interviewed and use the skip button on my DVR when they are asked questions at a debate.
You want a ""small government, free market guy?"
sticktotheconstitution Tuesday, November 15th at 2:44AM EDT (link)Ron Paul is the way to go!
I can't stand Paul because of the lies he puts out about other candidates, and calls it "truth"
avagreen Tuesday, November 15th at 3:49AM EDT (link)and then his followers repeat these lies as numerous as flies on a corpse.
Wanna sample?
Rick Perry STILL! doesn’t have or need blood. He is filled with magma.
Rick Perry uses his bare hands to hunt.
Countdown Until Obama Leaves Office.
He said SMALL government and FREE market
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 5:59AM EDT (link)Not a porker and Communist shill.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Ron Paul is a "communist shill?"
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 10:05AM EDT (link)I would love to hear your convoluted argument as to how someone who wants to scrap most of the Federal government is communist.
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
I'm sure you would
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 11:23AM EDT (link)But the fact that Ron Paul is an apologist for Communists, and whitewashes their atrocities and blames America for them, is well established.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
This is the first I have ever heard of such things.
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 12:26PM EDT (link)You can understand my skepticism in you claim since you backed it up with “its true because I said so.”
Once again, I have a hard time believing that Paul has been a closet (or open I guess since everyone knows it) commie lover.
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
No, I can't understand your skepticism.
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 12:38PM EDT (link)Because I frankly don’t care what Paultards think. I mock you. I pity you. I don’t respect you.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
The one thing missing from your list
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 4:17PM EDT (link)is “present a sound argument.”
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
I can't tell if you are honestly missing the point or arguing in bad faith
JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 12:54PM EDT (link)Ron Paul was consistently dismissive of the Soviet threat throughout his time in Public life through 1989. That is not to say that Paul “loved” communists. Ron Paul did fall into the “useful idiot” category when it came to the USSR. He always argued for a more passive and compliant response to the USSR.
Had Ron Paul been in charge of US foreign policy, the USSR would still exist today.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
There is a world of difference between
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 1:17PM EDT (link)thinking the Soviet threat was overhyped, which I don’t think was overhyped, and being a commie lover. Saying that they are the same is arguing in bad faith.
Look, if you guys don’t like his isolationist foreign policy, fine. I think he goes to far with it, but of the current field, he is only one who will not grow the Federal government like Bush did and will do the most to implement tea party ideas.
If you are fine a President who grow the government less a Democrat would, but still wants a cold war size military, there are plenty of options.
The hate, lies, FUD, and vitriol being directed on here toward the one guy who carry out what the tea party wants is astonishing to me, and it really makes me wonder just what the point of the tea party even was. We all took the streets and protested the bailouts, expansion of the Federal government. and ballooning of the debt. What was even the point if we are just going to nominate a guy who isn’t going to change anything?
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
And there is a world of difference between saying that Ron Paul is a commie lover
JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 1:29PM EDT (link)and saying that Ron Paul would inadvertantly bring about a chain of events (anarchy, etc) that would result in communism.
I don’t agree with that argument, but those folks didn’t call Ron Paul a commie lover—you MISCHARACTERIZED their argument as being a Ron Paul loves communism.
People on both sides should chill out and stick to facts, but your mischaracterization of what others have said is adding more fuel to the fire—the opposite of being in any way helpful.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I'm a follower
sticktotheconstitution Tuesday, November 15th at 4:01AM EDT (link)..and I haven’t even heard him talk about other candidates. Maybe I don’t follow politics as closely as you claim to. Or maybe what you said is just random nonsense. All I know is that I agree with everything he says about limited government and foreign policy. So I guess I don’t really care about gossip between the candidates.
Then, I guess it's just his crazy supporters that put out the lies?
avagreen Tuesday, November 15th at 4:29AM EDT (link)http://newyork.christianpost.com/news/ron-paul-comments-on-supporters-silly-sex-ad-attack-on-rick-perry-54313/
http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/08/10/paul-lashes-out-fellow-texan-perry#ixzz1UeGxTy6w
(lie by ommission of platform that Gore ran on in 1989)
Rick Perry STILL! doesn’t have or need blood. He is filled with magma.
Rick Perry uses his bare hands to hunt.
Countdown Until Obama Leaves Office.
posted before I was through
avagreen Tuesday, November 15th at 4:48AM EDT (link)http://www.freedom-won.net/ron-paul-comments-on-rick-perrys-debate-tactics/
(this is when Perry went over to greet Paul)
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/62677.html
(another lie about Al Gore and Perry’s support)
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20102135-503544.html
(same thing)
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/09/why-ron-paul-scares-rick-perry.html\
(another lie. Paul doesn’t get under Perry’s skin……..[he wished]…..and all the other lies…from supporters, I guess?
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/179657-ron-paul-blasts-rick-perry
(same lie about Gore and Perry’s support….”Perry not a true conservative”)
Another who set of lies:
“”I’m a taxpayer there,” Paul said in immediately personalizing his answer. “My taxes have gone up. Our taxes have doubled since he’s been in office. Our spending has gone up double. Our debt has gone up nearly triple. So no, and 170,000 of the jobs were government jobs, so I would put a little damper on this, but I don’t want to offend the governor because he might raise my taxes or something.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20106592-503544.html
Rick Perry STILL! doesn’t have or need blood. He is filled with magma.
Rick Perry uses his bare hands to hunt.
Countdown Until Obama Leaves Office.
Swing and miss.
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 10:28AM EDT (link)Fact: After the Sept (you linked to someone who confirmed it), Perry went over to Paul, grabbed him, put his hands in his face, and backed him a step.
Fact: Perry was Gore’s campaign manager in TX in 1988.
Fact: Still a fact.
Fact: In your fourth link, the word “Perry” doesn’t even show up, not sure what you even getting at.
Fact: There are no quotes in that link. None. Nowhere does it say that Paul said anything about Perry.
Fact: Taxes in Texas have gone up under Perry.
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
Twisted facts don't make a strong argument
avagreen Tuesday, November 15th at 1:38PM EDT (link)Fact: After the Sept (you linked to someone who confirmed it), Perry went over to Paul, grabbed him, put his hands in his face, and backed him a step.
Completely wrong and complete hysteria on your part and on the part of Paul’s supporters. I watched it. He put his hand on Paul’s right wrist. Even Paul later said he couldn’t remember what was said. Further, http://www.mediaite.com/online/apoplectic-ron-paul-fans-allege-rick-perry-assault-during-debate-commercial-break/
Fact: Perry was Gore’s campaign manager in TX in 1988.
Again, twisting what I said, which was that Paul lied by omission about Gore’s platform. (I get sooooo tired of writing this over and over, educating the ignorant)……Perry grew up as a conservative Democrat(as did the majority of Texans during that time, including yours truly). The Al Gore of 1988 opposed the federal funding of abortion, supported a moment of silence in schools for prayer, approved funding of the Nicaraguan contras and was against the ban on interstate handgun sales. Gore’s platform was one that a conservative West Texas Democrat like state representative Perry could support when he signed up to chair the Senator’s Texas campaign.
Gore and the rest of the [Yellow Dog......"I'd rather vote for a yella dog than a Republican"]Democrat party lost their collective minds, continued on to the left.
Perry continued being right of center with his conservative beliefs and removed himself from the Democrat party because of this (as did all the [Blue Dog] conservative Democrats), and all switched to the Republican party. Which was quite a titanic shift in politics in Texas back then.
Fact: Still a fact. As I pointed out above. You and Paul lied by omission. And, that’s a fact!
Fact: In your fourth link, the word “Perry” doesn’t even show up, not sure what you even getting at.
Huh? Monday, September 12, 2011
Why Ron Paul Scares Rick Perry
Fact: There are no quotes in that link. None. Nowhere does it say that Paul said anything about Perry.
Again, I guess it’s his crazy supporters that puts out these lies. And, I’m sure Paul doesn’t want all this being said by his supporters, right? That’s the reason he’s put a stop to all of this type activity? Suuuure! Hiding behind the skirts of his people while having plausible deniability. How weak! If he has this weak control over his supporters, what kind of president would he make??? Givemeabreak.
Fact: Taxes in Texas have gone up under Perry.
Fact: That’s a generalized statement. Taxes have gone up everywhere because of the economic downturn, but not DOUBLE like Paul said.
Fact: Texas has the 4th lowest per capita debt in the U.S.
according to a 2009 Census Bureau report and a Texas Public Policy Foundation analysis (Feb., 2011) shows Texas with a 7.9% combined state/local tax burden, ranking it 45th among the states – for comparison, New York’s burden is 12.1%.
Fact: You are lying by omission (same thing that Paul does repeatedly). Paul makes 5 statements, and you respond to the ONE statement generalized fact>/em> which allows you to say it is factual. Shows your lack of honesty as a poster.
Paul said “Our taxes have doubled since he’s been in office.” NOPE.
“Majority of job increases have been in government” NOPE.
http://www.bls.gov/sae/data.htm reports that
Counting from the beginning of the recession (December 2007) the Texas public sector has grown 3.8%, or a little under 70,000 employees.
Given that the Texas economy has grown so much and private sector jobs have grown so much, that doesn’t strike me as an unsustainable growth in the public sector.
But, just in case you’re really worried about it, you can lay your fears to rest because in the last year the Texas public sector has shrunk by 26,000 jobs. In the last 12 months, Texas lost 31,300 federal employees, trimmed 3,800 state jobs, and increased local government jobs by 8,400 jobs.
(To be fair, this was partially driven by the role Texas employees played in the census, which inflated federal job numbers this time last year. Since the census numbers stabilized, federal employment has been at about break-even.)http://www.politicalmathblog.com/?
Rick Perry STILL! doesn’t have or need blood. He is filled with magma.
Rick Perry uses his bare hands to hunt.
Countdown Until Obama Leaves Office.
You don't let reality get in your way, you do?
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 3:47PM EDT (link)1 – Your very own link had pictures of the indent, which are all over the place. Stop denying reality. He approach Paul, and grabbed him. The footage is everywhere, and everyone saw it as an awkward attempt by Perry to physically intimidate Paul.
2 – You didn’t actually say anything (so there is nothing to twist), you just posted a link to politico that Paul released an ad talking about the FACT that Perry was on Gore’s campaign while Paul was working to elect Reagan.
3 – Same as 2.
4 – Your link goes the front page of blog. Ctrl+F reveals the word “perry” appears nowhere.
5 – At least you can (kind of) admit that you are unable to understand the difference between Paul himself saying ”Perry not a true conservative” and some liberal blogger saying it in his blog. How comments that liberal a blogger makes are relevant anywhere is beyond me, but you should apologize for lying and making up quotes. Luckily for Perry, I wouldn’t base what I think of him on your character…
6 – Nope, I have responded to all of your lies and apologizing on behalf of liberal candidates. Taxes of almost every type went up while Perry was governor, but they didn’t double. Looks like on your sixth attempt you found something Paul said that was wrong, and he should set the record straight.
“Taxes have gone up everywhere because of the economic downturn,” So is it ok for Obama to raise taxes, or just Perry. What would be different about 2013 if Perry takes office? Would it be ok for him to raise taxes when he is President?
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
Ah, Ronulans (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 3:49PM EDT (link).
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Still at it, aren't you?
avagreen Tuesday, November 15th at 4:07PM EDT (link)*pity*
I’ll leave the readers to decide which viewpoint of us both passes the smell test.
Even after Scope presented with you a link to read….
Rick Perry STILL! doesn’t have or need blood. He is filled with magma.
Rick Perry uses his bare hands to hunt.
Countdown Until Obama Leaves Office.
I agree, the readers should see past his blatant lies.
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 4:15PM EDT (link)It really doesn’t get anymore desperate then linking to a liberal blogger and trying to pass it off as a quote from Paul.
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
sticktotheconstitution- You need to
Scope (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 11:42AM EDT (link)read this article and follow the authors advice and go read the Lew Rockwell site. I hope that he hasn’t scrubbed the tons of articles that Ron Paul wrote himself that will prove to you that he is a fanatic. You owe that much to yourself, and the rest of the country that would have to live under his right wing fanaticism. If you think for a moment that the country wouldn’t fall completely into a state of anarchy with his election, than you don’t have a clue about who Ron Paul is and always has been. What comes after anarchy? That’s right, communism.
So the tea party is going bring about communism?
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 12:30PM EDT (link)Every time I think I’ve seen the most far-fetched line of FUD, people like you prove me wrong…
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
Do you think before you comment Pi.
gekster (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 12:33PM EDT (link)How do you relate the Tea Party to communism.
Where is the conection.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
I didn't relate them, Scope did.
Pi Over Three (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 1:00PM EDT (link)Scope said above the a candidate who wants to greatly reduce the size and scope of the Federal government, lower taxes, end government bailouts and subsidies. and return power back to states is going to end in communism.
These are also the goals of the tea party, a movement started Paul’s base. Unless the tea party isn’t about those things anymore, if one thinks that Paul actions will bring about communism, then so will the tea party’s.
A ridicules argument to be sure, but I’m not the one who made it.
I drive a car powered by hydrogen – C8H18 to be exact.
No Pi
Scope (Diary) Tuesday, November 15th at 12:40PM EDT (link)That portion of the Tea Party that supports Paul won’t be bringing about anything. Paul has absolutely no chance of winning the nomination, let alone the general. Thankfully Paul will be going home to his rocking chair after this election season is over, and that won’t be a moment too soon.
Huntsmans is conservative in few seconds in media debates
celador2 Tuesday, November 15th at 6:52AM EDT (link)Joh Huntsman has used much of the few seconds given to him in the media debates well ooooon policy, He sounds conservative regarding free market solutions.
He used his time to argue against a free ride on HC for adult ‘children’ of Cadillac family plans by proposing cheaper insurance for them over a free ride at taxpayer expense as he had offered in Utah. He holds up Utah as a low tax state and says he has a proud record.
Huntsman got off on the wrong foot by attacking people of faith unnecessarily on evolution and joined media in that attack. He strongly opposes the ACA mandate and is not on the defensive as are Newt and Romney. I think he would develop energy also.
He has more to offer than some might think but will not be nominee.
Bachmann sounded the alerm but too late–the media not the public are picking winners of the GOP pres nomination in these debates. We have allowed the debates to become the sole standard to rate a nominee. There are about 12 more of kingmaker airings.
The media including Fox exist for ratings and create chaos. And most are dedicated to the defeat of the Republican nominee.
Huntsman? No way!
paco12348 Wednesday, November 16th at 4:25PM EDT (link)Have you noticed how Huntsman and Geitner Turbotax wrinkle their brow with a slight head duck and then look at you? Can’t stand either one of them.