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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

Yes, I am comfortable supporting Newt Gingrich

A few weeks ago I said I wasn’t sure I could get comfortable with the idea of supporting Newt Gingrich. I laid out my case then and there is no reason to go back into it now.

I still find it incredibly hard to believe that the two guys at the top — excluding the 9/11 truther nut — both support the individual mandate.

I continue to hope Perry surprises in Iowa and Huntsman surprises in New Hampshire. At least then we’d have a pretty awesome race with two governors with conservative records we can all be proud of.

But as between Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney, I have to take this one moment away from my first vacation from RedState in four years (I have 4,335 emails I have not looked at that have come in since Christmas morning) and my cigar and rocking chair to say I am comfortable with Newt Gingrich now if I must choose between Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich.

Put simply — as Governor of Massachusetts, Mitt Romney moved the state left, socializing its healthcare system and doing nothing to stop gay marriage until he knew it was too late to do anything about it.

As Speaker of the House of Representatives, Newt Gingrich moved the nation right with a balanced budget and welfare reform.

Maybe the poll trends in Iowa are real and Rick Perry is going to surprise people with a respectable finish. But if not, I’m not as bothered as I once was.

I could and would go with Gingrich over Romney. But I’m still kind of hoping I won’t have to.

COMMENTS

  • TSquared

    I’ve said over and over… If not Newt, It will be Mitt…

    If the Not Romney’s refuse to coalesce around a single candidate we will get another McCain…

    Don’t get me wrong. I like Rick Perry. But I don’t think he’s going anywhere. Even if he has a better than expected showing in Iowa, do you think that success will translate down state? The current polling doesn’t provide any evidence for such an outcome.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …that we support the GOP-nominee, would I concur.

    [more to come; listening to "greta"-discussion of The Newt's provocative quotes]

  • JSobieski

    Or do you wish to amend your use of the word “only”?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    If he’s willing to back the nominee, that’s good enough for me.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    If/when Bachmann/Santorum drop-out, he could easily absorb their support.

  • JSobieski

    Otherwise, our side is mind numbed Code Pink equivalents.

  • trevorb

    don’t mean much at this stage. It’s anyone’s guess who is going to win the nomination. I don’t have any great enthusiasm for anybody who’s running, but there are a couple I could support without needing a barf bag.

    Whoever wins, though, better have a skin of diamond because we know what kind of campaign that Obama is going to run. I will vote for whoever the nominee is, even if I don’t like them, because I know what the alternative will be. Not that my vote will matter much; I live in California and no matter what, Obama will have that state.

  • missourirancher

    However I will not vote for, or support a Rockafeller/Wallstreet/ Liberal Mitt Romney. My first choice from the very day that he declared at the Annual Redstate Gather’n was Rick Perry. I firmly believe and have Faith that Rick Perry will finish in the top three in Iowa. And then it’s up to South Carolina to put him on the “Drivers Seat”. That’s the way this Conserative Missourian calls it.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    JSobieski appears to harbor a propensity to misinterpret transparent quotations.

    Perhaps this harkens back to when I skewered his defense of The Newt, even as my analysis has been validated repeatedly during the past fortnight.

    He [and Wonkish1, who seems to have become scarce since those heated exchanges transpired] tried to suggest that The Newt didn’t REALLY support the Individual Mandate, even as I quoted explicitly from two recent books.

    I think The Newt will continue to fade, as his hysteria [such as arresting judges if they refuse to testify about their Opinions] begins to sink-in.

    This will clarify, as the drop-outs mount…and Perry persists.

  • TSquared

    … that support will swing to only Perry? Or will it split between the remaining 1st tier candidates? Since that support is so small – especially down state – would it even make a difference?

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …regarding what can be projected.

    If anyone other than Paul is nominated, I will support [and remain on RS].

    If Paul is nominated, I will resign as a GOP-Committee-Person and cease involvement with RS…unless RS were to alter its policy.

    Meanwhile, I will continue to advocate aggressively for Perry.

  • TSquared

    … What makes you think that Santorum and Bachmann will drop out soon enough to make a difference?

  • sethellis

    You can’t move Massachusetts left. It’s as left as it gets. The idea that Romney moved Massachusetts even farther left is just pure hyperbole. If it wasn’t for Romney they’d probably have a single payer system in that state, and I won’t even get into all the other far left items that Romney stopped dead in their tracks during his tenure.

    Not that I’m going to go as far as to say that he moved the state to the right. I think it would be more accurate to say he moved it to the center. He is a fiscally responsible, moderate Republican.

  • NeoKong

    I would be just fine with Newt.
    I just don’t trust Romney.
    He does not like the Tea Party at all.
    If he wants to be the president of everybody Mr.Pragmatic right down the middle then he should run as a Democrat.
    Moderates never win.

    He talks a good conservative game but his record does not back it up.
    I know Newt has some questionable things in his past but nothing that equals the enacting the model of Obamacare.

    Pound for pound Newt is the more conservative choice.

  • jakeofalltrades

    I’ll be a man and stand up for the team, even if that means pulling the lever for a douche or a turd. But don’t push me.

    There’s also P-Ditty’s Vote or Die campaign to consider:

    [Not Safe For Work (NSFW) - or anywhere, really]

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …because the RATIONALE behind the RS-policy isn’t “Mindless.”

    Both RS and I [and others on RS] share the need to dispose of BHO.

    Why you would fixate on this truism is, candidly, beyond me.

    Of greater importance is to confront current forces-at-play, such as the impending candidacy of Gary Johnson for the Libertarian nomination.

    EVERYTHING should be directed at isolating the dangers of the foreign policies that are espoused by Johnson/Paul, ensuring the GOP-base remains solid.

    Then, we will be better able to attract Independents…and some D’s!

  • JSobieski

    The far more important reason to support the R in the general election is to defeat Obama—NOT to merely comply with RS mandates.

    You said RS mandates were the “ONLY” reason why you could eventually vote for Newt.

    Do you amend your statement or not?

  • jakeofalltrades

    If he somehow became President, it wouldn’t be through an election, and blogging would be a distant memory as we wade through ashen craters.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Even if Luap Nor is nominated, we still can’t support him here.

  • JSobieski

    or you don’t understand the difference between doing something for a superficial rule and doing something because it is right.

    Your previous comment was quite clear:

    “Only due to the RS-Mandate… ?that we support the GOP-nominee, would I concur.”

    ONLY has a very specific meaning…it means for no other reasons.

    Is your subsequent comment a walking back on the word “only”
    or not?

    Or do you deny that someone can follow a mandate without embracing the underlying logic of the mandate?

    I am happy to see that you actually want to defeat Obama.

  • Scope

    and no shades of grey existed in JSobs world. I’ve adjusted my opinion that he is in fact a “contrarian” instead. Being a contrarian comes with consequences. It accomplishes nothing more than a hit job on ones credibility.

  • carolina

    That, alone, is enough to make him worthy of support.

    Perry comes in second with his economic proposals.
    Romney’s economic proposals are a disaster, imo.
    If Perry can’t gain enough support, I pray that Newt gets a handle on his ‘bright’ ideas (and big mouth), before he scares too many voters away.

  • Adjoran

    Newt’s comments on conservatives supporting Hoffman against Dede in NY-23 stay with me, as does his long support for cap-’n'-tax (“a market solution”).

    As others have pointed out, Romney’s ventures outside conservatism happened in the context of deep blue Massachusetts, while Gingrich’s were entirely voluntary – particularly the relish with which he savages conservatives who disagree with his apostasies.

    Newt resembles John McCain almost exactly, except for the heroism: strong conservative record punctuated by sporadic defections and slandering conservatives who don’t like them.

    Besides, a guy too incompetent to qualify for the ballot in his own state of residence isn’t fit to run a national campaign, much less the country. Like Cain, Newt just wanted exposure for his books and speaking fees, and was surprised how many suckers thought his campaign/Greek cruise/Breakfast at Tiffany’s was for real.

  • JSobieski

    How many times do you make some specific assertion about me personally in an attempt to detract from a substantive point? How many times have you accused me of some type of hypocrisy, only to have me cite contrary evidence and have you drop out for a day or two?

    I argue what I believe to be right. When I am wrong I admit it and learn from it.

    I note that you can’t refute my two central facts about Newt, and thus for the 1,387th time—you go personal!

    Congratulations! You are nothing if not consistent.

  • trevorb

    real enthused about Newt, but I can vote for him without cringing.

  • quill67

    From Cato:

    “To cope with the cost of its reforms, Massachusetts created a legislative commission that has RECOMMENDED MOVING THE ENTIRE MARKET TO A SINGLE, CANADIAN-STYLE PAYMENT SYSTEM that would encourage doctors and hospitals to ration care”

    Compromising with liberals gets one no where. They want control!

  • septembergurl

    I too will be supporting Gingrich against Romney should it come to that.

    Shudder.

    until then I will hope that Huntsman and Perry — excellent conservative governors with bold and visionary plans for our country — can break out in the early states.

    Gingrich has advanced conservatism greatly, if inconsistently. Romney has never done that. Gingrich is a flawed candidate. I do not trust romney one inch and will oppose him till the last possible minute.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …because the only other candidate they have entertained is The Newt, and efforts [by Vander Plaats] to persuade colleagues to support him [because he had helped them against 3 Iowa Supreme Court justices] failed [due to his personal life].

  • quill67

    I think Gingrich should have supported the conservative candidate but Newt believes that we have to support local Republican choice of candidates—even when dead wrong. While we disagree, this is the approach Newt used to gain the first Republican majority in 50 years.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …noting that they lack what Perry has [a moneyed Super-PAC[].

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …I concur with the rationale that underlies the RS-policy: Defeat BHO.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …that you harbor the capacity to admit error.

    DIG DEEP and expiate your “sin” of repeatedly defending The Newt, specifically claiming he hadn’t endorsed the Individual Mandate!

    [your attack of "scope" won't detract from that fundamental task]

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    [we must support the GOP nominee, which is intuitive...particularly noting that Gary Johnson, who plans to announce as a Libertarian, shares the neo-isolationist foreign policy espoused by "Luap Nor"]

  • ghostship

    Newt is a fighter and while that is a good thing (I wish we had more people in the Party willing to fight) the problem is that one never knows what he’ll be fighting for next.

    Being a fighter is a good thing but to for people to follow one as a leader they want know what the destination is.

    On the bright side he’s not Romney which is some small consolation. I don’t know if it’s possible for me to get drunk enough to be willing to vote for Romney and still be physically capable of making it to the voting booth.

  • TSquared

    Bachmann-11, Perry-10, Santorum-10….

    To: All
    From: Mitt Romney

    Subject: I win!

    Keep that Not Romney vote fractured…. Ha!

  • geotan

    Obama’s approval numbers are starting track up again and with the money and organization behind the Presidency, Newt doesn’t stand a chance. How can we put forward someone with so much political garbage that almost no one in the party supported hiim and still don’t. I know Erick is aware of all the issues surronding Newt but to overlook them because of the disdain for Romney is irrational. People keep equating Massachuseutts and Romney as if they are one and the same. Did anyone expect Romney or any Governor such as Weld and the other Republicans to make any changes in abortion, and gay rights? You don’t go into a state trying to change the cultural norms unless you don’t want to get elected and forgo the opportunity to at least introduce fiscal conservatism. What is the conclusion of the matter? Romney’s weaknesses of moderate politics is a much better weakness to base the campaign on then Gingrich’s serial hypocrisy, undisciplined and unprincipled leadership, distrust from his own colleagues, and homewrecking wife and adulterous behaviour. Erick is discounting all the independents and conservative Democrats who will be turned off Gingrich’s lifestyle baggage. That is a fact! Whereas Romney’s issue of healthcare will actually be more of an assett or at the very least not as damaging position to debate the merits of healthcare.
    Finally, in this crisis situation of economic stagnation, we need a businessman who knows what to do. Not a career politician, which the Tea Party allegedly didn’t want either hence Perry’s ads.

  • snowshooze

    Gingrich, or even my dog could beat Obama.
    So, Obama want’s to bring up history?
    Oooohhh wouldn’t that be fun.
    You have to have one to argue.
    So, Mr. President… we have a lot of questions for you.
    Why are you spending millions avoiding an answer?
    We know Newt is a mess..
    Where are YOUR creds?

  • Tbone

    Dude, did you just cut sentences out of a magazine and then string them together?

    Ya see folks. this is the kind of intellect that can support Mitt. That is a fact! LOL.

    Yes, Sparky, I am mocking you.

  • ghostship

    If people want to vote for a Progressive they’ll pick Obama instead of Romney every time.

  • lineholder

    of a piece of legislation that was patterned after the piece of health care legislation Romney implemented, you can say that Romney’s issue of healthcare would be more of an “asset”?

    Not likely.

  • katem

    The failure of conservatives to unite in support of an electable candidate has made Romney, who is a weak frontrunner, the luckiest candidate in the race. Now, thanks to Gingrich’s tumbling poll numbers and the expected splitting of the conservative vote among Perry, Bachmann and Santorum, Romney could win Iowa and be in a position to run the table by the end of January. It is beyond me why Romney and Gingrich, neither of whom has been a consistent conservative (Romney was a liberal to moderate Republican in Mass.), lead the polls. George Will is right that conservatives should give Perry and Huntsman serious consideration, not settle for Romney or Gingrich. Conservatives should work to ensure that Perry and Huntsman have strong showings in Iowa and New Hampshire, respectively, because the GOP deserves better than what the current frontrunners offer. At the very least, the nomination should not be a cakewalk for Romney, sewn up after only Iowa and NH vote. (If not Perry then perhaps Santorum can surge in Iowa and slow the Romney coronation.)

    Huntsman is a stronger candidate than Perry. And many believe that Huntsman, not Romney, is the best general election candidate against Obama. Some conservatives are skeptical of Huntsman but his record and his economic and foreign policy proposals are those of a conservative. He’s also the most capable candidate in the race. In light of Gingrich’s problems, the conservative base would be wise to throw its support to Huntsman in an effort to defeat, or at least slow down, Romney. (It sounds unlikely, but stranger things have happened.) Some conservatives may not be enthusiastic about Huntsman but he is head and shoulders above Romney and Gingrich and he presents far less risk of straying from core conservative principles than either of them does.

  • TSquared

    This result is almost identical to the last Iowa PPP poll. No real movement… Statistical noise?

    Perry doesn’t seem to be benefiting from the money he is pouring into Iowa…

  • haroldhervey

    Aside from the meteoric rise and epic decline of Herman Cain, the most curious phenomenon of the GOP Primary race has been the dazzling ascent of Newt Gingrich. His jet-like climb in the national polls among Christian conservatives is especially curious considering Newt?s considerable moral, ethical and legal baggage. Gingrich will need the supportive fuel of those conservatives if he hopes to keep his campaign airborne.

    But there are some real pending questions. Why in God?s name would people who dearly hold (and espouse) traditional family values like business/political ethics, respect for your fellow man and matrimonial fidelity actually support a man like Gingrich? Did they forget about his legendary moral/ethical lapses? Has their disdain for Obama made them lose all sense of virtue or propriety? Or..have they just lost their minds?

    Let?s review key elements of Newt?s history: Gingrich was charged by the House Ethics Committee with serious violations and fined $300,000; he cheated on his first wife while she was bed-ridden with cancer and divorced her; he cheated on his second wife while simultaneously blasting President Clinton for the Lewinsky affair (hypocrisy personified); he divorced the second wife and married the woman with whom he had another affair; House Republicans revolted and wanted to oust him as Speaker due to horrible leadership and abandoning his own conservative agenda; he was eventually forced to resign in disgrace.

    In addition, Gingrich: flip-flopped on climate change and even made a commercial with Nancy Pelosi; toured the nation with Al Sharpton (of all people) to promote Obama?s education agenda; accepted millions in fees from the Freddie Mae and Fanny Mac in private while condemning them in public; practically invented and openly supported the Individual Mandate that he now rails against; supported TARP, Medicare Part D and ?No Child Left Behind?; and wants to give illegal immigrants amnesty if they?ve been in the US for 25 years.

    And yet?..conservatives seem willing to forgive and forget all those serious moral, ethical, legal transgressions and flip-flops. And yet?.they simultaneously crucify Mitt Romney for changing his stance on some issues. Curious. Neither Romney nor Santorum nor Bachmann nor Huntsman ever cheated on their one-and-only spouses, were never accused of any business ethics violations and is generally considered to be very ethical and moral by any standard.

    And Romney flip-flopped to their side of the issues. Romney is against abortion, gay marriage and ObamaCare just like the conservatives who now condemn him but embrace Gingrich. While some disagree with RomneyCare for policy reasons, it?s not a mortal sin or violation of an oath; the people of Massachusetts still support that Plan by 2-1.

    Neither Santorum nor Bachmann nor Huntsman were run out of town by their colleagues or their spouses. They have clean records, are family oriented, articulate and competent. And yet?.except for Ron Paul, Christian conservatives have given only pocket lint to those worthy candidates. FYI: It will take more for Gingrich to win the White House than out-snarling Obama in a debate.

    Based on current polling one must come to the conclusion that conservatives have lost their minds. Or maybe they just forgot to remember the long and troubled history of Newton Leroy Gingrich.

    Newt?s desire to explore for precious metals on the moon may be a vain attempt at making all his political baggage weightless.

  • snowshooze

    And the damage to the R party with a Romney victory might be a serious liability.
    However, for a clean win…and measurable improvement.. just about anyone other than Romney, or Luap Nor.

  • gekster

    You said Romney lowered taxes.
    I asked which taxes did he lower.
    You ran away from the question for a few days.
    Did you think I would forget.

  • trelane

    It’s a Newt vs. Mitt race, and Newt is the ONLY Not-Romney to survive the gauntlet and emerge in the lead. It’s not for me to tell others how to vote, but I hope the Bachmann/Perry/Santorum supporters realize they are supporting a lost cause and back the only man who can defeat Mitt!

  • geotan

    Then why pray tell do the polls almost always showing only Romney beating Obama? Answer my points instead of giving me simple declarations.

  • gekster

    when you conveniently wont answer.

  • geotan

    No I haven’t forgotten or run away from your question. I just figured you should know the facts.

    Salem News – Feb 16, 2007 (archived copy on cltg.org)

    By the time Mitt Romney took office as governor of Massachusetts, the current budget was running a deficit of approximately half a billion dollars [1], with about $650 million of deficit spending left to go before that budget expired. And the upcoming state budget for the year would have a deficit of nearly $3 billion if the budget was not cut or taxes increased. [2]

    Senate President Robert E. Travaglini expressed the view that

    ?taxes will have to be raised to cope with the budget crisis, and said he and his Senate colleagues will lead the charge for new revenues…

    ?Travaglini’s remarks point toward an almost inevitable collision between the new Senate leader and the governor, since Romney has vowed to veto any tax hike that reaches his desk.?

    Boston Globe – Jan 29, 2003 (archived copy on cltg.org)

    Governor Romney held firm and balanced the budget every year without raising taxes. [3] He fought to roll back the state income tax from 5.3% to 5.0% and created budgets based on a 5% income tax rate. [4] The legislature refused to reduce the tax rate, and by the end of his term, he had taken “Massachusetts from billions in deficit to billions in surplus”. [5]

    Although he did not succeed in cutting the income tax for everyone, like he wanted, he was able to get income tax cuts for many of those with the greatest need for tax relief. For example, in order to aid older homeowners and young families, he created an $800 tax deduction for home heating expenses for individuals with less than $50,000/year income or families making less than $75,000/year. [6]

    Jim Cramer – TheStreet.com
    Plays Hardball about Romney

    Jim Cramer – Mad Money
    Assesses Mitt Romney

    Romney

    2008

    Record on Spending
    Record on Taxes
    More on Spending record

    And he also succeeded in getting other tax cuts. USATODAY reported “Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, a Republican, signed a law that creates the nation’s biggest tax holiday. All retail sales under $2,500 will be exempt from the state’s 5% sales tax Aug. 12-13.” [7] And when the legislature tried to raise the capital gains taxes, he not only successfully opposed it, [8] but he also got the capital gains taxes cut. [9]

    But Governor Romney did raise some fees. Some critics have overstated the impact this had on the taxpayer, most of whom were not directly effected if effected at all, with one exception, as raising broad-based fees were avoided. Fees were raised on some business or individual services in an effort to cover the cost of services the fees were charged for, as in this case:

    ?Governor Mitt Romney is raising fees on the use of state golf courses … it’s fair to ask golfers to pay for the cost of maintaining these facilities rather than expecting taxpayers to subsidize them.?

    Citizens for Limited Taxation – Fees or Taxes – March 7, 2003

    However, until he was able to implement his healthcare reform, he also raised a fee to health insurers which upset the Citizens for Limited Taxation. [10] When all was said and done, Barbara Anderson, Executive Director of Citizens for Limited Taxation concluded, ”I’ve never liked most corporate loopholes anyhow — especially when the corporations oppose “people tax cuts.” And while I don’t like fees on top of all our taxes, I don’t equate them [taxes] with user fees.” [11] As National Review reported,

    ?He [Gov. Romney] says, “we stayed away from broad-based fee increases such as driver’s-license registrations.” He says that balancing the budget without a tax hike has been his most significant accomplishment as governor. “We couldn’t be happier with him,” says Barbara Anderson of Citizens for Limited Taxation, the state’s leading taxpayer group. Steve Adams of Boston’s Pioneer Institute, a think tank, concurs: “Without Romney, we would have been slapped with a lot of new taxes.” ?

    National Review – Matinee Mitt – Dec 14, 2005

    Under the governor’s leadership, the people in the state benefited not only by increased employment through the creation of tens of thousands of new jobs [12] and not having their taxes raised, but they also saw several more tax cuts by the governor, as the following article pointed out:

    ?He cut capital gains taxes, benefiting well over 150,000 residents. Thousands more are currently benefiting from new jobs in the biotech field because of Romney’s manufacturing tax relief and because he made the investment tax credit permanent. Thousands of Massachusetts families saved their hard-earned dollars when Romney enacted sales tax holidays. Seniors are benefiting from property tax relief proposed and signed into law by Romney. Our honorable veterans and National Guard members have several new tax breaks because of Romney’s belief that they should be taxed less. Commuters can now deduct expenses for travel because Romney believes they shouldn’t be penalized for helping increase commerce.?

    Boston Globe – Romney is the kind of leader we need – Dec 14, 2007

    GETTING THE FACTS (ONE EXAMPLE)

    WHAT WAS DONE: (Commuter Costs)

    ?Commuters can now deduct expenses for travel because Romney believes they shouldn’t be penalized for helping increase commerce.?

    Boston Globe – Romney is the kind of leader we need – Dec 14, 2007

  • seanl

    I kind of hope Paul does win Iowa. Because then no one will care about the result, and everyone expects a Romney to win in NH.

    That means the first meaningful primary will be in South Carolina. That’s win things will really start shaking up.

  • katem

    Conservatives who support Gingrich are ignoring his many serious flaws. Romney would be a stronger candidate against Obama than Gingrich would be. But neither of them is the best candidate we can put up against Obama. George Will correctly described Romney and Gingrich as “from bad to worse.” Newt’s baggage, both personal and political, will turn off Independents. And his candidacy will implode (it may already be happening). Romney’s lack of core convictions, serial flipflopping, pandering and failure to take a stand on key issues (recall he ducked the debt ceiling debate last summer before opposing the deal at the 11th hour) raise serious electability concerns, despite Romney’s honorable lifestyle.

    Gingrich’s rise when Cain fell may have occurred because he had been out of public office for many years and the issues you mentioned weren’t fresh in some voters’ minds. We’re starting to see Gingrich’s poll numbers decline, so voters seem to be focusing on these issues now.

  • Bill S

    1) DO NOT spam the same content in multiple comments. About 2/3 of this is a rerun of a prior comment
    2) You still owe me a response to your post in which you promote the Conservative Party. (see here

    Response is not optional.

  • texashistorian

    and Newt is not my preferred choice, but if it comes down to Newt and BHO, then I have to vote for Newt. That’s all EE is saying and what most of us here are agreeing on. He has problems, but Obama is a much bigger problem than Newt ever would be as President.

  • katem

    It’s unlikely that Gingrich can defeat Romney. Look at what has happened to Gingrich’s poll numbers in Iowa due to negative ads highlighting his work for Freddie Mac, etc. You’re probably right that Perry, Santorum and Bachmann can’t beat Romney. But Huntsman has a shot at defeating Mitt if he can do well enough in New Hampshire to make the race competitive going into South Carolina. To do that, he needs support from more conservatives. If Romney wins Iowa, most of the others will effectively be out of the race. In that case, conservatives really ought to line up behind Huntsman to help him defeat Romney. If that doesn’t happen, Romney will be taking a victory lap in January.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …and, remember, regardless of what Mitt wants, there will be drop-outs quite soon from the Santorum/Bachmann pairing.

  • penhall99

    I really don’t understand why Perry isn’t benefitting from the evangelical vote. Perhaps they will support him in the end, but I’m gettiing worried, guys!

  • http://edgeinducedcohesion.wordpress.com nathanalbright

    …but time will shortly tell. Within the next month we should know for sure who is viable and who isn’t. Until then, we’re just thursday morning QB’s talking up a game that hasn’t started yet.

  • http://edgeinducedcohesion.wordpress.com nathanalbright

    I’m not sure what will happen in Iowa (which looks very unstable), but after nonviable (see Santorum, Bachmann) candidates drop out we should have a better idea what is going on.

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    While I have no hard data, 30+ years of internal observation has convinced me that American evangelicals as political agents have, over the past decade, begun to accelerate away from operating as a political bloc. While both positive and negative factors could be detailed, my passion to see the church disentangled from unholy alliances, in order to faithfully proclaim the pure gospel of Jesus Christ, is encouraged by the general trend.

  • BigRedConservative

    This isn’t an official endorsement, is it? Because I nearly had an aneurysm reading the title. Though I, of course, agree with the sentiment.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …is that the split in the Vander Plaats coalition portends the ability to reassess after Santorum dissipates.

  • http://www.planettron.com NickDeringer

    “Sure. I can eat some dog crap. It’s better than eating cat crap.”

    Gingrich will sell us out to the Left in a heartbeat. I lived in MA under Romeny. It was no picnic. “Romney moved MA to the Left?” Yeally? How can you tell?

  • cjd87

    Eric is comfortable with Newt over Mittens so am I. But ill take it a step further. I’m comfortable voting for a tree over Mitt Romney.

  • The_Gadfly

    He is very disciplined about advocating for the biggest, boldest ideas. I disagree with that philosophy,but I am not foolish enough to equate it with being undisciplined. You don’t advance welfare reform against a popular progressive if you aren’t disciplined. Newt did.

    Erick has pretty much nailed this one: In the field of candidates I prefer Perry even if he doesn’t speak well and is as apt to gaffe as Biden, but if I’m forced to choose between Newt and Mittens, Newt wins, even with the baggage.

  • beric

    I’m a Newt supporter as it is. IMO Newt’s strengths outweigh Perry’s, though it’s all a matter of opinion, of course. But only time will tell. I won’t feel bad voting for Perry, though Newt;s my top choice right now. Romney, I will feel bad for, though I’d still vote for him.

  • The_Gadfly

    are coming from Huntsman. But he isn’t acceptable because he mirrors Nor Luap’s.

    On economics, I give the edge to Perry over Gingrich. Both have accomplishments which produced jobs (Perry with his record in Texas, Newt with the Contract with America). But Perry’s are more recent and were done against the prevailing headwinds of the current regime. I also give Newt 10 demerits for derailing the Ryan budget plan.

  • circlegranch

    I agree w/ EE. I’d rather have Newt any day than Mitt. I would rather vote for Donald Trump than Mitt.

    Romney’s insult yesterday about Newt’s campaign being similar to Lucy at the chocolate factory is very Obama-esque. He would gain more respect if he’d answer straight up what involvement his VA campaign manager may have had rather than try to diminish others in the race that he believes aren’t on his level. He doesn’t act like a candidate that can only garner low 20′s in support outside of NH. His attitude is that the entire GOP–all sects of it–are staunchly behind him. That is not the case. Personal insults and attacks on character, all the while ignoring one’s own very obvious shortcomings are politician’s traits that Americans are quite sick of; policy flaws and comments on past records are fair game.

    Romney sees himself as the GOP’s version of the Chosen One and he’s sly and coy because he knows all the insider efforts going on to ensure his victory as the nominee. There’s an arrogance and elitist ambience about him that is very similar to what we have now in the WH. He won’t debate Newt because when challenged, Romney is a horrible debater. As this VAGOP situation continues, the timing, once again, couldn’t be more perfect: A Boston newspaper comes out with a Mitt endorsement. Everytime there’s a hint of controversy in the Romney campaign or something unsavory about his past business or governing record comes forth, or he drops in some poll, another endorsement is launched.

    If nominated and ultimately elected, it seems difficult to imagine Romney ever rising above his current popularity and approval ratings. A few weeks ago, the RNC put out a mandate that Mr. Obama should not be attacked on a personal level; that wouldn’t be nice. So, we aren’t going to get specific with the person we need to defeat, but all’s fair when it comes to insulting and trying to degrade a fellow primary candidate?

  • romansdaughter

    So I prefer Perry to Newt or Mitt. I mean just this fiasco with VA ballots was another glimpse of how Newt would be as President. The guy starts spouting and compares him not making the ballots to Pearl Harbor/?? And everyone tries to assure me that he is so smart…grief if that is smart. But if I have to choose between Mitt or Newt..I haven’t decided yet because both seem like a bad idea. I can only pray and hope for someone better. It is too early yet for me to choose. Ron Paul is out of the question. I refuse to support him.

  • Right_Again

    why evangelicals and other Republican voters are not strongly supporting Perry… “Oops.”

  • circlegranch

    is put out by John Hawkins (Right Wing News) today at Townhall:

    http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2011/12/27/7_reasons_why_mitt_romneys_electability_is_a_myth/page/full

    “7 Reasons Why Mitt Romney’s Electability Is A Myth”

    Well written; worth your time.

  • sowa1

    to win big and it is time to stop all this nonsense and get behind Mitt. Stop bashing the candidates, and go after Obama. Newt and Perry are not organized. Did not even try to get the votes to get on the Virginia ballot. You really believe they could pick all the people needed to run the Goverment ? Republicans look like a bunch of wacko’s who cannot get behind a candidate because of something in his past that is no where near the bad qualities of Obama.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …because the key is the PROCESS and not the EVENT.

    Here, as the field is winnowed-down, remaining candidates gain strength.

    The TEA [Taxed Enough Already] Party Movement activists will ultimately adhere to Perry.

    And, after he wins the nod, he’ll be backed by the GOP.

    So, let’s see what he says to night on “Greta”….

  • romansdaughter

    you have to be running for President for a number of years? Why do you think Mitt is so organized as you put it? Because he has been running for President forever it seems. And when he has been running forever and only gets around 25% of the votes then that doesn’t seem to prove that he actually could beat Obama. And Perry and Newt did try to get on the ballot and now seem to be suing. Bachmann, Huntsman and Santorum are the ones who didn’t try to get on the ballot. I don’t think we are wacko when we prefer someone who is conservative…so I respectively disagree with you.

  • circlegranch

    at www.townhall.com, written by John Hawkins

    Mitt’s organization will not be superior to Obama’s.
    Mitt’s war chest will not surpass Obama’s.

    Mitt inspires only 20-25% of his party; that isn’t going to invigorate Independents.

    His automatic and guaranteed waltz to the White House is a myth. His support within the right media and beltway neo-con’s is the same as McCain had and look where that got us.

    He earned about $3 million this year from his interests in Bain Capital and Bain Capital got a govt. bail-out. He will be painted as the poster child of the 1% in Obama’s war on class and income disparity.

  • thirstyboots

    It’s a site that offers a poll aggregator. Which includes polls from various poll companies, including PPP.

    Your comparison is bizarre.

  • circlegranch

    for videos out on the campaign trail in Iowa, lots of on-the-ground info hard to find elsewhere. Sign up and you’ll get email updates of ‘all things Perry’ in Iowa.

    Yesterday, the big news was that Bachmann’s bus tour got off to a bad start—she was late for her first appearance and few showed up anyway. Meanwhile, Perry had standing room only turn-outs. As an FYI, the Drudge Report is running a story about Romney making an appearance in NH that required police intervention because of throngs of people pressing to see Mitt (reportedly, the police handed the Romney team an invoice for the cost of the police presence). As the article unfolds and in reading comments posted, seems streets were in fact, blocked—with out of state cars. One might get the impression that some of this was staged in response to Mitt losing a couple polling numbers in NH.

  • circlegranch

    gave a thumb’s up to Rick Perry’s energy in Iowa. Todd reported this morning (from Iowa) that Perry has made a ‘major transformation’.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …that Huntsman positioned himself as the “moderate” and illustrated that posture by opposing [for example] Coercive Interrogation.

    And that he continued to espouse BHO’s terrible China-policies, this is pathetic.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …which is why it remains preferable to support Perry, resolutely.

  • elayman

    It speaks volumes about the Republican base that they continue to hold the tactical mistakes Huntsman made early on against him rather than line up with what they say that they want which is someone who is ideologically conservative AND can beat Obama. By that criteria, Jon Huntsman wins hands down. A consistent, successful conservative with an amazing background who offers up strong solutions and ideas is polling in Bachman territory. All I can attribute this to is the fact that he isn’t a pandering, social conservative evangelical.. What a disgrace.

    I continue to hope Perry surprises in Iowa and Huntsman surprises in New Hampshire. At least then we?d have a pretty awesome race with two governors with conservative records we can all be proud of.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …because he is also reminding us primarily of Mitt’s major-league flaws.

    I suspect he’s trying to motivate–as he has in the past–readers to transform their beliefs into action….

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Jacobson get2djnow

    nt.

  • clowngirl

    with everything you’ve said about Romney. He will soon be in for a rude awakening. If not in Iowa (though boy do I hope so) then likely by South Carolina when there will be fewer candidates.

    Pompous remarks like the Lucy in the chocolate factory comment (insulting other candidates while ignoring his own massive advantages) are likely to inspire more Perry and/or Gingrich donations and efforts than he could possibly imagine.

    It’s notable that Mitt Romney is unlikable when he’s coasting along playing it safe and not condescending to do things like interviews, when he’s unexpectedly behind and going scorched earth negative to claw his way back, and even now when he’s increasingly smug in his renewed assurance of his own inevitability.

    There seems to be no circumstance in which Romney comes off as appealing.

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Jacobson get2djnow

    Keep it up Doc!

  • ctredstater

    I continue to hope and pray that there will be a late breaking coalition of actual caucus-goers who go with Governor Perry. I have been solidly for his candidacy for almost a year. Felt he was the strongest candidate possible many months before he even looked at getting in.

    For me, governors make the most sense as candidates for President – for obvious reasons. He has had a hugely successful run governing one of the most populous state – would be a global top 20 economy if Texas were a nation. Low taxes, high economic growth, lower regulatory burdens – than most states. a success in the laboratory of innovation that states are supposed to be.
    \
    also – he has never lost an election. supposed to be a good retail campaigner – and I think he has shown flashes of that in recent weeks.

    I believe that the back surgery had a lot to do with early debate issues. He has been solid for the past several – his ads are fantastic. He is fighting a very strong coaltion of leftists nationally who are terrified of a Perry presidency and the Beltway Republicans/Media Commentators, whom the Romney-ites have cultivated for a period of years.

    I hope the conservatives in the northwest part of Iowa flock to Perry – and in those caucus situations where there aren’t enough for certain candidates to count, and they have to go second choice, I really hope that the Santorum and Bachmann folks will realize that Perry is a great alternative.

    If that happens, and there is a feeling he did ‘better than expected’ then I will feel Perry will get that genuine Second Look nationally. In a reconfigured race – with the Republican Version of Michael Dukakis, a disorganized, gaffe-prone but otherwise interesting and historically successful former House member, and a crackpot, I believe Perry could emerge and become the dominant force I had hoped he would be when he entered the race.

    I am with Erik – I would be okay supporting Gingrich – but I would feel as though we would be fielding a weaker candidate than necessary in such a critical election. and I think that Romney is the candidate Obama and his minions are secretly licking their chops for. a not particularly likable elitist looking rich guy who wants people to like him and changes positions as often as he changes his socks.

    Go, Governor Perrry Go!

  • clowngirl

    n/t

  • romansdaughter

    nt

  • APA Guy

    …of public policy success. Though the War on Terror persists, it’s THE ECONOMY.

    Gingrich was Speaker during and spear-headed the charge for balanced budgets (and WON), welfare reform, and tax reform during Clinton’s 2nd term.

    I remain comfortable with either Perry or Gingrich, though I prefer the former to the latter. I will hold my nose and vote for Romney, if it comes to that.

  • APA Guy

    …of public policy success. Though the War on Terror persists, it’s THE ECONOMY.

    Gingrich was Speaker during and spear-headed the charge for balanced budgets (and WON), welfare reform, and tax reform during Clinton’s 2nd term.

    I remain comfortable with either Perry or Gingrich, though I prefer the former to the latter. I will hold my nose and vote for Romney, if it comes to that.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    at the federal level and many conservatives including the Heritage Foundation did favor them 20 years ago as a matter of personal responsibility.

  • APA Guy

    How soon we forget those important facts sometimes.

  • APA Guy

    How soon we forget those important facts sometimes.

  • mjs65

    Based on the innards of this poll the person best positioned to provide that
    surprise in the closing stretch is Santorum.

    Rick Santorum actually has the best favorability numbers of any of the
    candidates at +27 (56/29). He’s also the most frequent second choice of
    voters at 14%. Whether he can translate any of this into a top 3 finish
    remains to be seen, but he’s someone who would seem to have the potential to
    grow his support in the final week.

    Iowa looks like a 2 person race between Paul and Romney as the campaign
    enters its final week. If Paul can really change the electorate by turning
    out all these young people and independents who don’t usually vote in
    Republican caucuses, he’ll win. If turnout ends up looking a little bit more
    traditional, Romney will probably prevail. And given all the strange twists
    and turns to this point don’t be surprised to see yet another surprise in the
    final week…and based on the innards of this poll the person best positioned
    to provide that surprise in the closing stretch is Santorum.

    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/12/paul-maintains-his-lead.html

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    from the start we might not be in this mess.

  • thirstyboots

    After this I expect him to finish below Santorum in Iowa. Not that I care, Newt has been fighting conservatism for more than 30 years.

    Romney was the governor of Massachussets and got the budget balanced without raising taxes. He moved the state a bit right. What’s Newt’s excuse? He was defending a national individual health care mandate. At a federal level, a la Obamacare, not at state level. It’s prototypical Newt: he believes that politicians have the answers to all the problems of society. He was promoting his “pro-active republicanism” against what he called “Goldwater/Reagan conservatism” in the early 80s based on that view. A Gingrich administration would produce one Obamacare or one No Children Left Behind every month. Newt loves “ideas” and he sees himself as a figure who can solve the worlds problems as long as he’s given power. Most dangerous type of politician.

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    Keep it up! We need all the courage and conviction we can get in the Perry Posse. It’s going to be a long hard slug but we can do it if we persevere.

  • Wayne

    Newt’s gavel from the Contract with America on my bookshelf at the office. I believed in him then and I believe in him now. But, much has happened since the 90′s and I remain firmly in the Perry camp wit the hope of a Perry/Newt ticket. Why? The answer to that should be obvious regarding leadership and core conservative values and common sense, so I won’t go into it.

    This is too important an election to let Romney win the nomination. We all lose if that happens, but is Romney better than Obama? I would hope so. In my judgement, not by much, but enough! What surprises me is how many Republicans support Romney and the implications that the Republican Party of today is much more progressive than in former generations. And, that is the price of compromise with the left! The more progressive we become, the more certain future generations will never know their full potential.

  • acat

    on Santorum having good “favorability” numbers.

    Santorum bought and paid for the Vander Pantaloons (sp?) endorsement. That’s not conservative in any way, and it doesn’t seem to have helped him much yet.

    Santorum made his name – nationwide – about social issues. They play well in Iowa, but not in the general election, and Santorum is not noted as a “jobs” guy or an “economy” guy. Heck, he endorsed turncoat Arlen Specter over Pat “jobs/economy” Toomey.

    In short, while people may have a favorable opinion of “that nice young man who tried to save Terri Schaivo”, turning that into votes is .. a very hard sell.

    Perhaps Mr. Santorum should go spend some time with his family, I hear he’s got a sick kid or something.

    Mew

  • acat

    The larger the poll sample, the better the results – so if RCP is aggregating several polls, they will have better results.

    This is not bizarre, although it is statistics.

    Iowa is difficult to predict, and polls are at best point-in-time, and they don’t necessarily – unless they’re very well constructed – give an indication of how solid support for a given candidate is.

    I find it more useful to read about how Iowans are reacting to opportunities to see the candidates. Bachmann seems to be having trouble generating turnout, Santorum is getting some attention, Perry is packing halls. (and diners and parking lots…)

    In the end, Iowa is going to turn largely on weather.

    Mew

  • Ausonius

    In the article now (9:35 EST Dec. 28th) on Drudge, one analyst sees a chance for Santorum to rise.

    “There’s (Sic) really three primaries going on here,” Santorum said. “Ron Paul has his own primary, the libertarian primary. And (Newt) Gingrich and (Mitt) Romney are sort of the establishment primary. And I think there are three who are vying for the conservative mantle to go up against the Gingrich-Romney duo. And I think that I’m going to be the one coming out Iowa with that mantle.”

    Santorum should have said: “There ARE really three…”

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12/27/in-what-may-be-final-turn-in-gop-roller-coaster-santorum-begins-his-ascent/#ixzz1hqB1Qjjr

  • williamjameson

    including corporate and property fees aka taxes. Obama tried to pull the fees crap too.

    Newt abandoned the mandate long before Romney was elected and then signed the bill into law forcing Fed taxpayers to pay half RomneyCare’s cost which was under projected by $800 million. Anyone who projects $100 million and misses the mark that much isn’t presidential.

    Newt is more conservative while Romney is only a self admitted Moderate Progressive. Newt is a better choice considering most of his non-conservative mistakes happened after he left office.

  • acat

    This guy.

    While there may be some wisdom in the “three primaries” observation, I don’t see why Santorum expects to finish well in *any* of them.

    Mew

  • Tbone

    Romney, Newt, Paul, Santorum, Bachmann and Huntsman and the fools who flocked to that total idiot Cain, instead of a proven conservative, successful governor of a large and diverse state, this Country is screwed by the pervasive lack of judgement in the electorate.

    I’m glad I have no children.

  • acat

    we’ve overextended the franchise; we’ve got people voting who simply lack the necessary judgement.

    I’d like to see voting restricted to those who are competent enough to file IRS form 1040. If you can figure out how to file a 1040EZ, you’re likely competent enough to figure out “Candidate A or Candidate B”.

    Mew

  • thirstyboots

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VWSGQmVh6A

    “Newt abandoned the mandate long before Romney was elected”? That was a blow in your credibility.

  • renl57

    We heard this same line in 2010: “Anybody can beat Harry Reid. Why choose a RINO candidate like Sue Lowden”?

    There’s a lesson to be learned from the failures of Sharron Angle and Christine O’Donnell: No matter how vulnerable the Dem party is, voters won’t vote for a candidate whom they perceive as fringe or as a flake. Let’s remember it.

    Gingrich would lose the female Independent vote to Obama by a huge margin, because of his adulterous history. Female conservatives may look past that because they agree with his ideology, but female Independents won’t.

  • christopherestep

    The thing you (Erick) said was that you hope you “wouldn’t have to” and I would agree except the fact is that you, like me, live in Georgia and we have 2 months of primaries before we even get a vote.

    I hate the stupid primary system. I understand it and I don’t know what a better solution would be, but I hate that when we vote as early as March, it’s still not early enough to have a significant impact.

    Basically, we’re one of the “nail in the coffin” states which only exists in the primary season to eliminate the last contender to the nominee.

    That’s just great.

  • renl57

    In 1992, Clinton had campaigned on a pledge to “end welfare as we know it.” Remember?

    So he was already committed to reforming welfare in some way (over the opposition of the entire left wing of his party, some of whom resigned in protest from his Administration).

    Clinton would probably have preferred a more liberal set of reforms. But his main goal was reform, not pushing ideological liberalism as Obama is.

  • Finrod

    This came through memeorandum this morning:

    EMILY’s List ranks Gingrich as ‘worst’ GOP presidential candidate

    Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is ranked as the worst GOP candidate in this year’s presidential contest by EMILY’s List, a group that supports pro-abortion rights Democratic women.

    The group will soon release a scorecard of the GOP candidates, and will rank Gingrich the worst in large part because it sees him as changing his position on various positions. Texas Gov. Rick Perry is the least bad in their eyes, in part because he has not taken the votes in Congress some of his rivals have cast.

    Their scorecard is here. Romney gets dinged the most on abortion with Huntsman and Perry the least, Perry and Santorum get the least dings for opposing ObamaCare, Huntsman gets the least dings for opposing Obama’s jobs bill, Gingrich by far gets dinged the most on retirement and Medicare (with Huntsman, Perry, and Romney tied for least), and Bachmann gets dinged the most on ‘workplace fairness’ with Perry dinged not at all on that subject.

  • acat

    “Anybody could beat Bill Clinton”….
    “Anybody could beat Jimmy Carter” …

    We need a better candidate than Romney, who excites nobody.
    We may be able to win with Gingrich; I suppose I don’t believe the “independent female” bloc is as significant as you do.

    What wins in these elections is a strong conservative who has broad appeal. Voters being impure, the ideal candidate must meet several litmus tests. Pro-life, obviously. Strong defense, obviously. Someone who has a strong record, because some folk won’t vote for a legislator. Solid personal life, because personal life makes a good proxy for public policy.

    Out of our top six, none fill this … except Perry and Huntsman.

    Mew

  • acat

    Simple statistical fact.

    The wiktionary can help you with the big words.

    Mew

  • Scope

    either on Fox or CNN, can’t remember which, shortly after the death of Kim Jung Il. The interviewer asked him what he thought would happen with North Korea now, or some such. Huntsman said that it is an opportunity to break up the oppressive dictatorial rule that has been North Korea for decades, and that the US should get together with it’s friends and allies, such as “China and Russia” in order to break up the dictatorship. I’m paraphraising, but the meaning is there. I was floored. Has it not been reported for ever that China and Russia have been helping Kim Jong Il with his neuclear capabilities? Has it not been true that since the split with the Koreas, China has sided with and promoted the dictatorship of North Korea, while the US has been in support of, and has aided the efforts of South Korea?

  • renl57

    Huntsman has refused to do the ONE thing that would get the GOP base to sit up and take notice: Go after Obama. And hit him hard. That’s what the GOP base wants.

    Every other Republican candidate has attacked Obama’s record and policies. Romney, Gingrich, Perry, Paul, Bachmann, all of them.

    But Huntsman has criticized the other Republican candidates much more than he has criticized Obama.

    And if you look at the “Issues” section of Huntsman’s campaign website, you find barely any mention of Obama at all–and no mention of just what Obama is doing wrong.

    That’s bizarre for any challenger to any incumbent. When an incumbent is running for re-election, his challenger has to convince the voters that the incumbent does not deserve to be re-elected. Huntsman has not done that.

    Huntsman needs to be able to finish the sentence: “President Obama should not be re-elected because….”

  • Scope

    I have now seen them showing at least three Perry campaign stops, and even Karl Cameron last night reported from a Perry event with what he described as a standing room only crowd. There were other campaign stops showed on air and all of them are showing Perry getting large crowds at his events. OTOH, I read and have seen coverage of some of the Bachmann events, and they are basically empty. Perry and Bachmann campaigned 6 miles away from each other yesterday, Perry had a packed house, and Bachmann didn’t even have a handful of supporters at her event. That may have been because Bachmann was late to the event, yet again.

  • Ausonius

    …do our candidates have now? I have lost count. :)

    Global warming endorsements, adulteries, health mandates, general cowardice in face of liberalism, screwball pacifism, conspiracy-theory mania, flip-floppery, moonbeamery, and general chronic goofiness.

    God Save America!

  • tailfins1959

    If Perry trips over his shoe laces in a campaign, he could very well be a conservative Jimmy Carter. Someone accident prone in the White House harms his nation, his party and his ideological associates. Perry is a HUGE risk.

  • katem

    There’s nothing wrong with reaching out to moderates too. Whoever our nominee is will need moderates/independents in order to win the general election. A big part of Huntsman’s problem was that the conservative media labeled him a liberal and/or a Democrat at the beginning of the race without doing their due diligence on him. (That happened long before Huntsman said anything about climate change.) Had they vetted him properly they would have seen that Huntsman is a moderate on some issues but a conservative on many other issues, particularly the economic ones that are critical to this election. Paraphrasing Reagan, someone who is with you 80% of the time is a friend.

    As for China, how can it be said that he is simply espousing Obama’s poliicies/views? Obama had no experience with, or special knowledge of, China before taking office. Huntsman lived and worked in China numerous times and has expertise in Chinese and Asian issues. He was a trade negotiator dealing mainly with Asian countries and worked in private business in China. He served Bush 41 in Singapore. Huntsman has explained in interviews and debates that there are many moving parts to the US/China relationship and that slapping tariffs on Chinese imports (which Romney and others advocate) would hurt, not help, US interests and affect other aspects of our relationship with China, including security interests in the region. Romney’s and other candidates’ pandering to audiences about China is far less impressive than Huntsman’s knowledgable statements about China, which are based on years of experience.

    If we don’t want Romney to win this race in Iowa (which the media is saying he is poised to do — a second place finish to Ron Paul is the same as a first place finish for Romney), then a strong alternative needs to emerge in Iowa (maybe Perry, maybe Santorum) and Huntsman needs to finish strong in New Hampshire. If both of those things happen, then we have a race.

  • acat

    Answering gotcha questions posed by a hostile media.

    The job of POTUS is significantly different.

    Further, you’re significantly confused on history – there’s no indication that Perry is physically as clumsy as Gerald Ford – who, if you’ll recall, was the guy who cleaned up after Nixon, and one of the better arguments for the “establishment guys”.

    Carter was known as a wonk, an ideas guy, one of the nuclear sub wiz kids who knew how and why everything worked the way it did .. and couldn’t put it into practice. The parallel in this race is Newt.

    If you’re going to compare our candidates to historical disasters, at least pick the right ones, okay?

    Mew

  • geotan

    You can bury your head in the sand to the reality that only Romney is competitive against Obama but I and millions of other Republicans won’t. If these polls were insignificant then why wouldn’t they show Perry winning against Obama? The point is well taken, Romney right now is beating Obama and no one else is. You can’t dismiss this fact because you don’t like it. You are looking at this from your eyes and not the objective eyes of the mainstream voter. You don’t like the fact that Independents and Democrats are going for Romeny over Perry and Gingrich.

  • http://edgeinducedcohesion.wordpress.com nathanalbright

    …sometimes people can make the “right” enemies for the “wrong” reasons.

  • geotan

    I can’t argue with something that you refuse to see. Only point to the many many people including those who worked directly with him who repeatedly and consistently say this. Krauthammer also points this out and has a lot of respect from conservatives as he is a leading conservative talking head. Also, you didn’t address the adulterous hypocrisy of Newt and some of the Evangelicals who overlook this, nor the homewrecking cheating wife who would be first lady. How in the world would you offer up that disaster to the electorate and hope to beat Obama? What a dream!

  • heraklios

    If the GOP Establishment hands the nomination to this slimy sob then conservatives are going to BURN THE PARTY DOWN in 2012. There will be someone running on a third party ticket who will draw MAJOR conservative backing. Go back to the 1924 election and see what happened to the Democrats. You could see a repeat for the GOP this year if Willard Mittens is indeed the chosen one.

  • tailfins1959

    I will be watching the general election debates with my head lowered, sweating bullets and saying “Whew!, he didn’t implode every time he survives a debate”. With Newt it will be “Whew!, he didn’t implode” every time I visit Drudge. I hope for the best with either of them, but it will be like walking on thin ice. For that matter, Romney’s thin skin could do him in, hopefully someone has pulled him aside to warn him. All the candidates need to spar some more so we can be reassured the nominee doesn’t have a glass jaw.

  • geotan

    I just don’t understand how anyone can seriously consider Perry to represent the Republican party and beat Obama. After those debate debacles and the NH speech, you are asking for a disaster of epic proportions. I like the man but he is not Presidential material. He will not succeed in the debates because he has proven not to be of high enough calibre. I know the debates are only a portion of the campaign, but we have never had anyone this weak in debates and they will matter big time. Don’t bury your head in the sand to this fact as most Republicans have not and have moved on from Perry for these reasons.

  • katem

    But I saw him on Erin Burnett’s show on CNN last week and he said that China is not an ally of the US. Also he was on Fox last night and referred to South Korea and Japan as allies, not China and Russia (although he did say that a dialogue with China and Russia is important in light of the events taking place in North Korea).

  • notpropagandized

    Picked up Huntsman via TiVo from 3 nights ago. He’s way above Romney on my list which is now Perry Gingrich Huntsman. It all lines up with your keenly deft analysis, acat. As a matter of fact, Perry is exactly what we need… if we could only eliminate public speaking obligations from his campaign and role as US President.

    Purr

  • elayman

    He has released ads that, in his own words, say that President Obama is on the fringe, that he is too far to the left, and that he has failed the country on everything from the economy to immigration. His issues page needs to be beefed up as does the entire online/social media effort, I’m not arguing that. But their policies are 100% different and Jon mentions it in every speech. The other candidates have gone after each other as much or more than this campaign.

    Conservatives are just looking for excuses to justify not having given him the correct attention until it is possibly too late to come back.

  • acat

    Perry’s gaffes were in an environment that, as president, he would not be in. Further, as Perry was the first one (and most effective) to lay a glove on the “inevitable” Romney – not once, but twice – your assertion is without merit.

    If you’re speaking of the NH speech where Perry was alleged to be intoxicated, I’d ask whether you’ve watched the whole thing or just the hit-piece clips. Nobody present indicated they thought he was drunk, seems to me he was working the crowd pretty effectively.

    Do try to get some better material.

    Mew

  • acat

    is a wonderfully solid argument, as is your confusion over why polls showing the guy who’s been campaigning for 6 years with a lead over the guy who’s been campaigning for 6 months.

    To spit your bilge back at you, just because you “want” Wafflin’ Willard to be able to beat Romney doesn’t make it so.

    Mew

  • heraklios

    Implemented low tax, low regulation policies that promoted this boom when every other state almost was in steep decline? One of the leading proponents of federalism anywhere?

    I guess in Willard Mittens’ world and among his supports this isn’t a record of success. Perhaps they would prefer that Perry govern texas like Romney governed MA; by imposing more regulations, socialized medicine, higher unemployment. Perhaps they would prefer that Perry govern Texas like Romney operated at Bain Capital; by closing texas businesses, firing workers and transferring the net proceeds to rich Wall Street fat-cats….

    Yeah…Mittens sure is better Presidential material than that guy….Anyone could see that?!? Sheesh…..

  • ctredstater

    what is not being factored in is that:

    – a lot of this is based at this point on name recognition, and Romney has an advantage, having been a national candidate before.
    \
    – the Romney who would face Obama in November 2012 will be no recognition to today’s Romney. the mainstream media have “gone Watergate” on any wisp of a negative story against every Republican contender EXCEPT Romney. If Romney gets the nomination, he will find out what John McCain found – you are only useful to the mainstream media in hurting the Republican party and’or the conservative cause. Once you become the nominee, all bets are off and you are now the enemy.

  • acat

    do you recall taking gotcha questions from a hostile press? That’s the job of the press secretary, not the boss.

    As for public speaking, Perry’s very good there – and I’ll note that of the GOP candidates, he’s the *only* one to appear on Letterman and Jon Stewart, not exactly traditional bastions of conservatism.

    Yes, he’s not great at answering gotcha questions from a hostile media .. but is that even in the job description?

    Mew

  • katem

    In fact, Huntsman has been critical of Obama’s policies, particularly Obamacare and Obama’s failure to focus on the economy during his first 2 years in office, both in the debates and in interviews. He has said that Obama failed us on the economy. Huntsman has not gone after Obama personally the way Gingrich and Trump have. Some in the base may not like his refusal to engage in personal attacks, but plenty of other conservatives and many independents want all of the candidates to refrain from personal attacks.

  • thosjefferson

    Is anyone surprised that Erick would come out in favor of the ultimate Washington insider if it means defeating Romney?

    Redstate might as well change its name to “Anti-Romney” to be more accurate. Nominating anyone but Romney would hand the election to Obama. In fact, I’m starting to think Erick’s most concerned about his web traffic; i.e., like Rush, Sean and the others, he gets the most attention when there is a liberal in the White House. What other possible explanation could there be for supporting Gingrich?

  • acat

    when his media “buddies” turned on him. Romney shall, given his proximity to this object lesson, have no such excuse.

    Mew

  • jakeofalltrades

    People always vote for the lesser liberal. That’s the lesson we learned in 1992 and 2008.

  • heraklios

    Both parties got burned by a division in the ranks. If you want to see the result of a Willard Mittens nomination, these are the best predictors.

    Let me clue you in: Out among regular people who make $20K, 30K, 40K a year, who struggle to pay the bills, who are patriotic, who go to church regularly and believe in God and family; they all can’t stand Willard Mittens. And in the Upper South, VA, West VA, NC, KY, TN, ARK, MO, these are the people that deliver elections to the GOP when we win. These type people will not stomach a liberal Massachusetts Governer. If Willard Mittens is the nominee, even against Barry O., more than 1 of the states listed above will go to Obama…you can bank on it. I live in that part of the country and know the people there.

  • heraklios

    Both parties got burned by a division in the ranks. If you want to see the result of a Willard Mittens nomination, these are the best predictors.

    Let me clue you in: Out among regular people who make $20K, 30K, 40K a year, who struggle to pay the bills, who are patriotic, who go to church regularly and believe in God and family; they all can’t stand Willard Mittens. And in the Upper South, VA, West VA, NC, KY, TN, ARK, MO, these are the people that deliver elections to the GOP when we win. These type people will not stomach a liberal Massachusetts Governer. If Willard Mittens is the nominee, even against Barry O., more than 1 of the states listed above will go to Obama…you can bank on it. I live in that part of the country and know the people there.

  • ctredstater

    if campaign gaffes early in the primary season were disqualifying no one would ever be elected President.

    how could Governor Perry have such a successful governance, economic development and electoral record if he is the bumbling idiot his detractors claim?

    we have a hard core Marxist in the White House who is full bent on destroying the American way of life. he has no credibility, no provable intelligence, no genuine career accomplishments other than getting elected on the basis of teleprompter reading.

    Perry would destroy Obama in a general and lead a genuine conservative ascendancy. For a reference point, see 1980.

  • heraklios

    daily Kos, HP, TPM will all welcome your input

  • heraklios

    daily Kos, HP, TPM will all welcome your input

  • notpropagandized

    What Democrats say rarely lines up with what they actually do. They can’t win elections unless they parse, spin, prevaricate, propagandize or just outright lie. Republicans win by saying what they’ll do and then lose support for wimpy caving-in to Dem bullies.

  • doncorleone

    Newt as a grenadier is much better than newt the legislator. Newt maybe the smartest guy in the room, but, when he gets his position of power, his ego, and petulance (which is great when throwing grenades), doesn’t work. You can hurl bombs from everywhere. Focusing and multi-tasking all of those great ideas into action is something quite different all together. He had alot of great, talented, economic help w/the balanced budget that got engineered and put through during the clinton administration. The contract w/America, was fabulous. Unfortunately, much of it was un or under-utilized. The “I love Lucy” candy factory statement, in my view, wasn’t a crack about who’s campaign coffers are bigger, it’s about being able to handle difficult and swiftly moving real-time problems, as expeditiously as you can hurl retorts and quips. I’m not set on romney by any stretch of the imagination. But, to use a phrase from the “democrats”, about voting for elmer fudd over bush. works in the upcoming presidential election, and w/all of the info thats coming out about newt agreeing w/romney on virtually all of his major intiatives that he’s enacted or proposed, the guy who appears to be handling things in an expeditious manner is not newt, look at Virginia, and he lives there.

  • Tbone

    except for the military should be allowed to vote. Anyone who can’t pass the standard citizenship test shouldn’t be allowed to vote and anyone who voted for Obama shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    there is no reason to obfuscate the whole truth, which would be wrong in any event of course.

  • notpropagandized

    Perry was the first national figure to call Obama out on his coup d etat takeover style of Federal government. He’s perfectly lucid and direct in person. Yes, he’s flubbed under the bright lights and occasionally gaffes (nothing like Biden, however). Certainly not perfect, but his agenda and belief system is exactly what the doctor ordered. Perry excels at building a team and consensus and executing policy. He’s getting his mojo together now, I think.

    Gingrich is very attractive but does not build the team and consensus. Long term, he tears them apart to the point of mutiny. Observe his removal as speaker and his campaign team bolting. Perhaps VP or Chief of Staff?

    Turnout for Republicans depends on upon strong conservativism, a reality that Ann Coulter has unfortunately abandoned. Bush41 lost because he ticked-off 2ndAmendmenters among other reasons. Romney just will not mobilize Reaganesque turnout because his belief system is simply not there.

  • acat

    or did you not notice that he fell apart against .. irony .. Perry in the debates, and that Fox News guy in what should have been a friendly interview…?

    Mew

  • Joshua Persons

    Cutting and pasting without attribution from

    http://aboutmittromney.com/taxes.htm

    As such, I didn’t feel obligated to read through the whole wall of text, but from what I read it sounds like institution of a whole series of cutouts and loopholes rather than any serious cuts.

  • thirstyboots

    An aggregate average will always be more accurate that some individual polls and worse than others. Curiously, it’s not like this PPP poll is pretty much in line with the RCP poll average.

    From my experience, there are two types of person who prefer anecdotal evidence to statistical data: those who dislike what the polls are showing and those who are very ignorant.

  • heraklios

    You are not welcome here.

  • heraklios

    You are not welcome here.

  • acat

    A subset to a larger whole.

    Not going to waste my time explaining to you why polls are not always right, and why it’s a good idea to look at other sources of data.

    Mew

  • thosjefferson

    Heraklios, I don’t know those websites. Could you spell them out for me?

    All I know is most conservatives–and most Americans–want a President who will get things done. Gingrich has never been an executive, just like Obama was never an executive. Whoever we nominate, it should be a former governor, not the ultimate DC insider who made millions from selling access.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    This is about defeating ALL Democrats.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Anything would be better than letting hordes of morons cancel out hordes of smart people.

  • Wubbies World

    …. I will have to drink very heavily and puke afterwards. However, if I have to vote for Gingrich, I can do it sober, though I still won’t like it. If it is between Ron Paul and Obama, I will just stay home. Its all over for this country at that point.

    My actual preference is Perry and that is who I will vote for in the primary.

  • acat

    if you’re in a Red State, consider writing in Zombie Reagan.

    Your vote, on the down-ticket races, becomes even more critical if we have a loser like Wafflin’ Willard or a lunatic like Luap Nor at the head of our ticket.

    Mew

  • thirstyboots

    For example, when it comes to the Iowa caucus, I’ll take the final results from Selzer over the RCP average any day.

    *and I meant “Curiously, this PPP poll is pretty much in line with the RCP poll average” (which makes rsklaroff’s comment even more weird).

  • Wubbies World

    … It is probably the most red state around right now. In the state legislature, after the 2010 elections, I can could count the total number of Dems in both houses on my fingers.

    Low danger threshold here. If I was in another state, I would feel differently.

  • thirstyboots

    n/t

  • Wubbies World

    I need to amend that statement.

    We have Democrat Senator Tim Johnson on the ballot this election cycle. I will go just to vote against him.

  • Menlo

    Newt Gingrich supported the toilet ban.

    As to health care and health insurance, his “solution” as speaker was to side with Ted Kennedy in piling on perpetual bureaucracy, mandates, and red tape.

    It’s laughable to me that anyone could find any of the candidates more or less “conservative” than any other. Of those under 75 years of age, they are all exactly the same from my perspective, and I would be surprised if that were not the sentiment of the nationwide electorate.

  • acat

    fill-in-the-oval ballots lend themselves toward a civics test.

    Putting a multiple choice like “Name either of your current Senators” just before the question of “Who do you want to elect as your new Senator”, for example, and throw the vote for Senator out if the question is answered wrong.

    I doubt we’ll see that kind of reform in my lifetime, but .. technologically, it’s *easy*. We don’t seem to have the will to enforce simple “you must register to vote” laws, though so …

    Mew

  • notpropagandized

    It doesn’t look so good for Perry at the moment, but he has an extraordinarily excellent win-loss record. Many warn that he should simply not be counted out under any circumstance. Well, the circumstances are trying to say the least, so this should be interesting.

  • acat

    just for a chance to get one more Dem out of the Senate.

    Mew

  • Wubbies World

    … I can drink to that LOL

  • acat

    If you think someone is a troll, take it to the contacts page.

    Mew

  • Bill S

    The moderators will decide who is welcome here and who is not.

    And we will also decide who is a moby…

    Now let’s go back to our regularly scheduled Ron Paul bashing.

  • jakeofalltrades

    But you’re right. Politicians benefit from idiot voters because they cannot effectively be held accountable by them.

  • Wubbies World

    McCain is the most electable in the general in 2008 too. Remember?

    ….and Ronald Reagan was totally unelectable in 1980 as well. Remember?

    I am so tired of this most electable [excrement]

    PS: I am not a Newt supporter but the argument is still tiresome.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Trolls and mobies get banned around here pretty quickly. All you have to do is be patient.

  • notpropagandized

    But Newt is not a successful team builder. Or is it that the can build a team but has a tough time holding it together. Whatever. I’ll vote for him with joy and happiness in the general.
    Rank Now: Perry Gingrich Huntsman Bachmann Romney Santorum.

  • acat

    Which you have yet to really acknowledge.

    And yes, the PPP results, on their face, are pretty unchanged, as you said. What’s interesting, and the reason why I pointed out anecdotes, is that the support for Bachmann seems much softer than for Perry.. anecdotally. Something PPP doesn’t poll for, eh?

    Perhaps the polls are right, but … they don’t “feel” right, they’re not aligning with what I see on the ground in the same way the polls that had Hillary winning NH didn’t align with the excitement over Obama I was seeing in 2007.

    Time will tell.

    Mew

  • Bill S

    but the head-to-head numbers are as fluid as water. They change non-stop. Yeah, you can pick a point in time where Romney beats Obama, but I could go thru the weekly h2h polling and find times where Gingrich beats him, Perry beats him, and probably even RuPaul.

    Using h2h numbers to make a point has an expiration date of about an hour.

  • notpropagandized

    Seems strange, but yes. Perry and Huntsman at the top. Per above
    MyRankNow: Perry Newt Huntsman Bachmann Mitt Santorum

  • cajunchosid770

    IMHO I think for Perry to be the nominee we need him to win Iowa. This is the first choice.

    But here is my other scenario:

    Let Ron Paul win Iowa,
    Mitt with NH,

    then it comes to SC. If Perry beats Newt in Iowa and comes in 3rd, behind Paul or Romney this sets up the stage for Perry to be the conservative alternative to Mitt. But Mitt needs to lose Iowa otherwise he willhave Iowa and NH as I don’t see him losing NH. If Mitt wins Iowa and NH he will be the nominee.

    So let the vote for Iowa be Paul, Mitt and then Rick Perry.

  • acat

    If Romney doesn’t win by a very clear margin in NH, it’s an “Asian F”. That is, it may be a victory, an A-, but .. it will be interpreted as weakness.

    Mew

  • texashistorian

    would never allow it, such a move towards anything like that (much as I agree we need reforms) would be stopped up in the courts for years and probably tossed. States can’t even require a voter to show a valid ID without a raft of problems. Can you imagine if they had to take a test. Some Jackson, Sharpton, [insert race baiter of choice] etc. would no doubt claim it was Jim Crow returned.

  • swami7774

    What a ridiculous statement. I’ve lived here for 22 years. Romney did NOT move the state left.
    Certainly he’s not Jim Demint, but those are few.
    I’m not going to pout because a perfect, doctrinaire conservative is not running. To paraphrase a recent SECDEF, you win elections with the candidates you have.

  • notpropagandized

    Gingrich will mobilize conservative voters far more than Romney. That’s the only way a Republican presidential candidate can win. Despite Gingrich’s obvious flaws and impurity, forgiveness is a key among evangelicals as they test the spirits of Gingrich’s late in life maturation.

    Many think Romney will actually suppress conservative voting and leach out conservative enthusiasm. It’s hard to argue that point. Mitt’s not garnering much enthusiasm under that 20-30% ceiling under which he’s been stuck for a year…

    I suggest Perry. Or even Huntsman. Perry’s better for me because I trust a believer far more than a non-believer.

  • notpropagandized

    I feel Perry is rising again but hard to know how fast it could be. It’s important that he’s the 3rd ticket out of Iowa going to SCarolina, Florida (Ron Paul place does not matter – ignore it).

    Further, if Perry gets his word lined up properly, he’ll get a strong 2nd wind.

  • romansdaughter

    What does a Moby mean? I know what a troll is.

  • AceInTX

    BBBWWWWWAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAA

    I’ve watched Romney drag every candidate who posed even a tangential threat two him through the mud in swo successive campaigns in 2007 and now 2011…and YOU support the man while calling on us to quit attacking candidates and get on board the Rat Train?

    REALLY???

    This is rich…

    As far as Willard being

    “the only one that has the organization to beat Obama.”

    Do tell!

    If that organization is so great, why is hasn’t it been able to get Willard “The Rat” over 30% in any poll in the last 5 years?

    I remember what great fun it was pointing at the Dummycrats and laughing at them trying to defend John Kerry in his flip flop fest once he became the nominee…well I’m here to tell you…I AM NOT going to spend the next year trying to defend Romney and his finger in the wind, Flip Flopping way of doing business…I’ll vote for him…I always have and always will vote for the R Nominee…but don’t expect me to sing the man’s praises…I had my fill of that with McCain…I?ll fall silent and watch from the sidelines rather than demean myself trying to defend a lying, pandering coward who lives by telling people what they want to hear while sticking a homemade shank in their back!

    The very idea that after we went through the 2008 fiasco that the establishment foisted on us that we could be right back here with the same players shoving another loser down our throats…and this after they have parlayed the crushing victory we brought to them in the 2010 elections into the crap sandwich we’ve gotten from Congress is as unbelievable to me as anything I can imagine…

    I knew these idiots could screw up a one car funeral…but even in my most fevered and lunatic fantasies did I EVER imagine they would put us where we find ourselves on the eve of the IA caucuses with Ron Freaking Paul leading the polls and then they engineer the VA vote fiasco where the only candidates the people of VA will be able to choose from is Willard ?The Rat? Romney and again Ron Freaking Paul?ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

    I knew they?d back Romney in this campaign and I called it that way just after CPAC 2007 and I?m not surprised by that?not even given the fact that he came in third behind McCain and Huckabee in the vote tally in 2008?.but now?when it?s so clear that primary voters have rejected this POS completely, they engineer a situation where people are seriously contemplating Ron Freaking Paul as an alternative to the crap sandwich they?ve served up?

    So, that said?if the choice is Willard ?the Rat?, or Newt Gingrich?put me in as a solid Newt backer and let?s get it on!!!!

  • texashistorian

    At the end of the day, I am in the anyone but Mitt camp (unless the anyone is Obama). My top choice is Perry, followed by Huntsman, Santorum, and then Newt and Bachmann. A vote for Mitt would feel like my 08 vote for McCain, and I hated that feeling.

  • notpropagandized

    But when the media condenses an excellent and entertaining 26 minute talk into an 8 minute “drunken” hit-job, there won’t be much sympathy from an over-sensitized electorate. And once he has the job, it won’t matter. It’s amazing how few people realize how the media, and yes Fox News, manipulates elections and perceptions. The Establishment is all out for Romney.

    Rick is known for great stump speeches, for sure. Personal conversation with Perry is awesome. The Elites, the Establishment, the cocktail-set cringe when they hear him. But with TeaParty and Evangelical and 2ndAmendmenters teaming up to help, Perry may just rise up successfully.

  • acat

    How many more Republicans (not conservatives mind, just .. folks with an R after their names) were on the bench?

    How many people were paying less to the government?

    By most metrics, Romney failed as a GOP governor.

    I fail to see why I should reward him for that.

    Mew

  • snowshooze

    If he is the Nominee… it is a cinch that a third party Candidate shall arise. Anyone with a single drop of charisma or integrity will pull the Republican ticket to shreds as Willard has neither.
    The Ticket will be so weak, it will be practically inevitable.
    You will never get to see if Romney can beat Obama head to head, because it will not happen.
    And his selection of a running mate won’t save him.
    So far as that goes, who do you think he would have in mind for that? He would need to figure out if he was going to go with a showboat, or pick out the establishment approved… which is what I would expect him to do.
    So… Willard-care Vs. Brand X and Obama having a ball…is not a path to victory.

  • texashistorian

    ‘you win elections with the candidates you have.’

    And hopefully Mitt will not be the candidate we have. I do agree that Mitt didn’t move Massachusetts left- is there even any room left to do that? ;) - but he’s not even close to the kind of candidate we *should* be nominating this cycle. None of our nominees are DeMint, but we have a few who are in the same ballpark, and Mitt isn’t one of them.

  • acat

    who pretend, at the outset, to agree with their target audience both to avoid detection and build cred that they later use to spread rumors and otherwise divide their target audience.

    The name comes from the musician Moby, who advised his followers to undertake this variety of trolling divisiveness.

    Mew

  • heraklios

    .

  • snowshooze

    So there we go… Hard to figure how much he could pull out of Romney, but I would expect of the potential Nominees, Romney would lose a higher percentage than anyone except Paul or Huntsman.

  • tnguy

    I keep reading some of you refer to RS Policy as conservative in the primary, (R) in the general.

    I’m 40 years old and have never voted for anything but (R) in the 20+ years I’ve been eligible to vote. It’s now obvious to me that continually supporting “(R)” is a big reason that Obama was able to get elected in the first place, and a huge reason our nation and it’s finances are in such disarray.

    I held my nose and voted for Bush in ’04, McCain in ’08, and for both of Tennessee’s repugnant senators. I would agrue that trying to put the nation on the right path is foolhardy if we don’t accomplish it in our own party, and that that cannot truly be accomplished if we don’t at some point draw a line in the sand and thumb our nose at the party establishment and its candidates.

    I believe that conservatives are the largest contingency within the republican party, but, as usual, the conservative candidates are splitting all of the vote in the early primaries, and will once again allow the establishment candidate to avoid facing stout conservative opposition. I don’t think we can vote for a Romney-type with his gov’t healthcare, then retain any credibility in trying to convince the unwashed in the next election why we should try to elect small gov’t conservatives. We can’t preach conservative principles then abandon them on election day because hey, it’s a choice of lesser evils. It strikes me as being intellectually dishonest, and the state of our country is evidence that the way we’ve done things the last several decades is not working. As much as we want to blame democrats for our problems, we need to consider the beam in our own collective eye….

    Plus, there are millions of conservatives and republicans who are often willing to settle for the more moderate candidate, because a conservative will get such harsh treatment from the media, and we really don’t want to go through that, right? As Jonah Goldberg said re: Rick Perry, he doesn’t want to spend another 4 years defending a yet another poor-spoken Texan. Sigh.

    But all of that aside, what does “policy” mean? That if I advocate, for example, not voting for Ron Paul were he to win the nomination, I’m not allowed to post here? Or post a diary? Or is it just a position statement from the editors?

  • heraklios

    Maybe conservatives can nominate Senator DeMint from the floor.

  • romansdaughter

    The only Moby I know about is the book Moby Dick. I was trying to put that into context and it wasn’t working. LOL.

  • heraklios

    Johnson will draw best in the West and may draw 8-10% nationwide if it’s him/Romney/Obama. I could easily see many libertarians and a few conservatives refusing to support Mittens and going in Johnson’s direction. If someone like a Donald Trump also runs 3rd Party, his celebrity status will pull more of the independent votes in additional to what Johnson pulls. Meanwhile, Barry O’s base stays firm, which means we are screwed.

  • heraklios

    Johnson will draw best in the West and may draw 8-10% nationwide if it’s him/Romney/Obama. I could easily see many libertarians and a few conservatives refusing to support Mittens and going in Johnson’s direction. If someone like a Donald Trump also runs 3rd Party, his celebrity status will pull more of the independent votes in additional to what Johnson pulls. Meanwhile, Barry O’s base stays firm, which means we are screwed.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Yeah….there’s a great idea. Senators make lousy Presidents anyway.

  • snowshooze

    And honestly, with two or three vying for market share against him I can’t see it as even likely that he could pull it.
    Oh, we’d be aboard.. but we are a small percentage.
    It’s them folks in TV land…

  • tailfins1959

    We are LUCKY for ANY progress for the conservative ideology to even have a chance. The lower quality of GOP candidates is a result of a poorer selection of decent people in general. Be happy conservatism hasn’t been marginalized. Celebrate ANY incremental success. Our woes are from the supposed “good guys” being corrupt or doing nothing. I lived in your neck of the woods for a few months. There’s not much room for complaint when Christian conservatives act like Pharisees. Maybe you can get that GOP legislature of yours to drop having an “Official State Song” with the lyrics: “Strangers ain’t come back from Rocky Top, Guess they never will.” Murdering strangers: Now there’s an “optics problem” for you. I will see your 22 years of conservatism and raise you by an additional ten years. I voted for Ronald Reagan.

  • jakeofalltrades
  • jakeofalltrades

    I meant this for the open thread.

  • macbookben

    I will have to disagree with you there, geotan. Despite the garbage of his you mention, Newt is synonymous with welfare reform, a federal budget surplus, and Republican revolution. Newt is a brand. Now Romney can claim the brand of being the guy who saved the Salt Lake olympics, and to a lesser extent, governor of Massachusetts. Granted, Newt lost his district’s seat in a Georgia election (can’t recall whether primary/general); Romney got beat up by McCain’s campaign in ’08. On balance, I’d say Newt nets more brand recognition. Besides, if personal peccadillos mattered that much, Clinton should have been beat by Bob Dole, according to your theory about independents and moderates being turned off by personal garbage. Newt: Dirty Harry:: Romney Dudley Dooright.

  • swami7774

    He got elected in 2002. The next two years, he busted his a&& recruiting candidates and campaigning for them. He failed. But at least he put some effort into it, which is a damned sight better than his 2 GOP predecessors Weld and Cellucci (I don’t count Jane Swift as anything more than a space-filler).
    As for residents paying less to the state than before, name me a state in which this has happened. I might move there tomorrow.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Now it’s exempt.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Judges would otherwise froth at the mouth to become the hero that saved the franchise of all those poor benighted dimwits dumbing down the vote.

  • tailfins1959

    In places with high population and many old buildings there’s a big market for “antique toilets”. I mean the good old seven gallons per flush kind. It appears one can avoid prosecution by declaring them “collectors items”. If you’re tired of plunging and playing in the toilet on a regular basis, join the toilet collectors club! Oh my, what have we have reduced ourselves to indeed?

  • jakeofalltrades

    Try Preparation H and eating less.

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    everyone who wanted to run for office had to pass the standard citizenship test before doing so. That would improve things from the local level and upward.

    Hope you had a Merry Christmas!

  • acat

    The city of Pelosi is paying quite a lot to un-plug their old sewer lines, some on a regular basis.

    It seems that the system, built with a 7-gal-flush, is not reacting well to the more modern toilets.

    Guess who, in the end, get the bill for the Dept. of Sanitation overtime?

    Mew

  • tailfins1959

    You protest too much. Here let me put a smile on your face!

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aqualine-Eljer-complete-toilet-5120-Vintage-Retro-Antique-1953-GREY-GRAY-/170733346826?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c080200a

  • acat

    While I’d like to claim a merry Christmas, there was some family tension that made things more difficult than necessary. Still, nobody started shouting or stalked out in high drama. Better than in past years.

    Hope yours was peaceful and spent with your loved ones.

    Mew

  • jakeofalltrades

    Yeah, it’s true – this low-flow crap just pisses me off. All in the name of protecting the most common resource on Earth.

  • tailfins1959

    You surely admit Mass. is a really nice place to live, being the most educated state in the union. Jobs are plentiful and pay really well, crime is low compared to other places, people are courteous especially in the wealthier areas like Wayland, Newton and Wellesley, company cultures focus on happy associates. I could go on. To whom do you give the credit?

  • Menlo

    I can tell you from both experience and education that the problems of eating too little are actually even worse!

    I ended up getting one of those $800+ Toto models and have not yet had any problems with the flush. Those high-end Japanese models should work, but it requires a large investment.

    If you have $6300 to spare, you can try the new Smart Toilet. I suppose you could also share with the elephants, at least in Thailand:
    elephant

    I’m not sure it was about saving water. I read somewhere that the plumbing lobby was supporting the measure; and I’m sure they’re still seeing the benefits.

  • thirstyboots

    Albeit unintentionally.

    Perhaps the polls are right, but ? they don?t ?feel? right, they?re not aligning with what I see on the ground in the same way the polls that had Hillary winning NH didn?t align with the excitement over Obama I was seeing in 2007.

    Hillary actually won New Hampshire. Polls were right, your “feel” was wrong.

  • Tbone

    Well, cats will be cats.

  • snowshooze

    As things stand… there is absolutely no reason to switch horses now. If we get him through the Primary… we are on the way.
    If not… well… then our decision has been made.

  • Scope

    for me “disappearing for a day or two” when I don’t respond to your comments. Such hubris and self importance you display. I don’t respond to many of your comments because they leave the reservation of what my point was, and you have literally tried to change the subject from the point I’ve made in my comment. You so completely try to redirect the points, and go on rants which have nothing to do with my comments. I’ve mostly ignored what you say because I frankly believe that you turn your phrase depending on who you are responding to. You mostly don’t make your case, but rather, you act as though RedState is your courtroom, and you act as though the members are a jury you are trying to convince with your attempts to convince us that “he really didn’t mean what he said, really he was misconstrued.”

    Get over yourself already. When I leave RedState, and don’t post much, it’s because I’m so sick of the whole political game, and need to take time away to recollect my thoughts. Your opinions aren’t important enough to me to cause me to go on a hiatus because you’ve successfully argued your case against my opinions or comments. I’ve personally considered you to be someone who is so black and white in your opinions, so very abhorrent to any shades of grey with the law, that you have become to me boorish and intolerant of anything that isn’t pure, except in those cases where you personally deem something to be tolerable.

    Let’s start honoring that old agreement that you will ignore me, and I will ignore you. I’ll let others here fight your inconsistencies.

  • Scope

    Not in finding every little thing he could have, should have done in his campaign, or what lawsuit he should have filed.

  • geotan

    You can’t speak without speaking in hyperbole. I hardly call betting someone and getting a bit hot under the collar “falling apart”. Let’s try to be accurate with our criticism.

  • geotan

    Thankfully there aren’t enough Romney haters like you heraklios. Your irrational and exaggerated hatred for Romney knows no bounds and is completely distructive. The third party won’t be a threat because Obama and the Democratic Senate is a much greater threat than Romney could ever be. Your concerns about Romney are completely baseless. George H. Bush, a moderate, was governing in a different time when entitlement programs and spending were not the potential disasters that they are now. Everyone, including Romney recognizes this. That is why Romney contrasts his very conservative vision with Obama’s entitlement vision. Now you can have your concerns about just how conservative Romney would be, but make no mistake, it will be a conservative administration because of the times we are living in. Just ask the socialist ex Prime Minister Papendreou of Greece how conservative their austerity measures had to be. Romney knows the country’s finances are broken and need fixing. Something you fail to see.

  • barkmulch

    This has to have been said a few times in the long string of comments here. But “net Newt” (i.e., Newt’s strengths/accomplishments minus his weaknesses/peccadilloes) is greater than both “net Mitt” and “net Obama.”

    Independents (even the women) have 401k’s, know how to balance a check book, and hear the great flushing sound in Greece. Obama’s positives are always at least a little inflated given the media shields protecting him. And unemployment and debt-to-GDP numbers still mean something too. Obama’s minuses only start here.

    And those who aren’t already anxious to punch the “anybody but Obama” button next November will not be swayed by fine distinctions between a former “Massachusetts conservative” governor and a philandering powerhouse of a former Speaker whose lapses, however great, do not match in scale his political successes in the Octagon of Congress.

    God save our Republic.

  • Wayne

    I agree with your sentiment, I but not your solution.

    Our collective decline is predictable and expected because we’ve been too busy living the American dream to pay attention to the principles that underpen our great society. And as such, it is up to every knowledgeable individual to become political activists and engage the progressive mindset with the power of logic, reason and historical significance provided in our founding documents.

    The only thing that would make sense to me is raising the voting age to 30 since our society appears to be retarding the maturing process where parents continue to allow their children to remain at home (college students would be the exception) well into what should be their adulthood.

  • kevinj84

    The fallacy of Ford’s clumsiness was perpetuated by the MSM and SNL. He was one of the better football players at Michigan (one of the empire schools) and was anything but a klutz.

    Don’t mean to threadjack, just clarify. I do agree wholeheartedly with your “Gotcha questions” statement.

    Still waiting for your frontpage entry.You are about due.

  • kevinj84

    anyone bring up to the Romneybots, that in 1979-80 Ragan was “unelectable” according to the same talking heads we have today. (This could be my fault for not reading EVERY comment on every thread).

    We need to quit listening to the 2012 version of the McCain minions. It didn’t work in 2008, it won’t work now.

  • kevinj84

    That should be Reagan. Dang fat fingers. :)

  • kevinj84

    I posted my above comment about Reagan’s electability before I got to yours.

    Please disregard the part about nobody mentioning.

  • Ann2012

    I have to say that I am so tired about hearing about the infamous “individual mandate.” First off, it was suggested by the Heritage Foundation and later along with Newt they changed their mind about it. I’m conservative but sensible enough to know that if one hates an idea proposed to solve a problem then you had better come up with a better idea to solve the problem. And until you do, stop complaining about the mandate. Most of us have insurance so it wouldn’t have affected us.

    When people choose to not buy insurance and then expect society to pay the high cost of their health care for them in emergency rooms, excuse me if I’m not appalled at requiring them to have some form of insurance or bond to help pay for their own health care costs. If you don’t like that idea, fine, but for goodness sakes propose a better idea! Or stop griping.

    I hope and pray that Newt wins the nomination. He’s the most conservative, innovative, strong candidate and the only one that really inspires me this political season. And don’t be fooled into thinking that only Mitt Romney is electable. Some misguided Republicans want another non-interesting nominee that won’t produce any emotion or excitement. Dull and non-threatening to the Independents is their hope. But the Republican establishment is a little odd that way, they praise Reagan as the model for the Republican party yet he produced so much emotion, and condemnation from the Left in his time, due to his strong, uncompromising and unapologetic ideas. Newt is like that, not much middle ground, but those are the leaders that inspire people to get involved and who get things done.

  • acat

    and since you spend a good 3/4 of your post defending what Willard is running on, I feel I need to call it out.

    First, I am going to go on complaining about the mandate until it’s in the dustbin of history where it belongs. Government has no constitutional right to force me to purchase any product simply because I draw breath. Period.

    Yes, when the uninsured abuse the emergency room – which the government mandated must serve everyone regardless of ability to pay – it is rather appalling. However, adding another government mandate doesn’t fix anything – it just makes the government bigger. Lose-lose!

    Why not, for one alternative, allow emergency rooms to collect biometric data (fingerprints) from any patients who indicate they aren’t insured, and move emergency room debt to the front of the line in terms of collections, garnishing wages, tax returns, inheritances, etc., using the fingerprints as a proof-positive ID.

    This uses the existing civil court structure to ensure payment, balancing government’s thumb on the E.R. without requiring more government.

    Mew

  • gekster

    The finger print thng is a good idea.
    At least I like it.

  • Ann2012

    There seems to be a cat replying to my post. Well this is a first. Since I have no problem with cats with a political point of view, let me respond by pointing out that you greatly misunderstood my comment.

    I do not, repeat do not, want Mitt Romney to be elected. He is not conservative in my opinion. I want Newt to get the nomination and he along with the Heritage Foundation originated the idea of the individual mandate before they changed their mind about it.

    I don’t like people taking advantage of tax payers by not buying insurance. And your idea (at least you tried to come up with a solution) would most likely not work. The extremely high cost of health care especially in emergency rooms could not be collected since as we now know banks have lost billions not being able to collect from those who default on mortgages or credit cards.

    You cannot collect money from someone who does not have money to collect. I like Newt’s idea about forfeiting potential tax credits which would go towards a health insurance fund instead of the mandate. At least it starts to address the problem with some kind of a solution. Although poor people don’t pay taxes so that really wouldn’t work very well either. Someone has to find an answer and until then I at least want something to be done to protect tax payers. We have to buy car insurance, health insurance is no different.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Mitch Daniels. A Governor with proven conservative credentials.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    I know he is not a conservative, but if I had to pick between a competent businessman who has run things well and someone who has shown scant evidence of competence as a legislator, like Santorum, Or a person who would be hugely vulnerable to Democrat attacks, like Gingrich, then I have to go with Romney.

  • westcoastpatriette

    “We have to buy car insurance, health insurance is no different.”

    Since when do we have to buy car insurance? Driving is a choice.

    You twist the problem on its head, also, when you say things like “I don’t like people taking advantage of tax payers by not buying insurance.” Talk about misplacing the blame. If you want to blame someone, blame the government that forces taxpayers to pay for ER care when someone walks in with a snotty nose and is uninsured — including for illegal immigrants. That is the root of the problem, not someone’s choice about whether they want to purchase health insurance.

    Your solution –mandating everyone to purchase insurance — is no solution at all and it is big government personified. That people like you cannot see this is beyond me. Government is causing the problem to begin with and your answer is punish everyone as a result.

  • gekster

    “We have to buy car insurance, health insurance is no different.”
    Do I have to buy car insurance if I don’t have a car.

    Even if i take a bus everywhere, do I have to pay for people who drive and have no insurance.
    Where do we draw the line.

    And what gives anyone the right to tell me what I have to buy.
    Please point out in the Constitution or Bill of Rghts where the government has that power.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    The answer was around for about 200 years in this country. Doctors are not told what to do by government, They only get sued when they really screw up, everyone pays their bills and poor people are provided by charity.

    The costs did not get out of whack until government got involved.

    Government control of the health insurance industry caused prices to skyrocket. Medicare caused prices and taxes to skyrocket. Government mandates caused prices to skyrocket.

    In all cases it is government that made our health care go from one of the best AND one of the least expensive to what it is now.

  • acat

    time and materials used doing pro bono work from their income.

    Mew

  • Ann2012

    westcoast and gekster: No I’m not wrong and I do understand.

    Think about what you’re saying. If I don’t have a car I don’t have to buy car insurance. Or if I don’t have a house I don’t have to buy homeowner’s insurance. Or if I don’t live in a floodplain I don’t have to buy flood insurance.

    Okay that’s because under those circumstances you will not cause a car accident, have a house burn down or have your house be flooded. By the same token then, by not being required to buy health insurance you must promise to never have your body get sick and require medical care.

    Since no one can make that promise and most everyone without insurance is at risk of needed medical care at some point in their life then they have to be responsible citizens (just like the car owner) and pay for that eventuality.

    See how they go together:
    car: car insurance
    home: homeowners insurance
    body: health insurance.

    Your car may never be in an accident and your house may never need repair and your body may never get sick for as long as you live but insurance is there in case those things happen. And you’re not forcing someone else to pay for your way through life.

    p.s.

    westcoast, until we agree as a society that people without insurance will be allowed to stay sick or die then we can avoid the insurance problem. But you and I know that will never happen. We have to deal in reality, and no one wants to live in a society where we let people die because they aren’t insured.

    kyle8, you are exactly right about health care costs, nowadays charities would go bankrupt trying to help people. We need a holistic solution that involves all aspects of the health care field. Keep in mind too that with the advances in modern medicine people are living far longer and the costs associated with that fact are much greater. With the baby boomer demographic retiring the costs will only go higher.

  • acat

    Why didn’t they just mandate that everyone buy some?

    Simple – Government does not have the authority to do so.

    Where you go gravely awry, Ann2012, is by trying to use one federal law to fix a problem caused by a different federal law.

    Why not just allow emergency rooms to bill the Fed for their treatment? That’d save on paperwork and would have the same net result, right?

    Mew

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    Hold people responsible for emergency room treatment, but then also pass a law that requires the Feds to pick up at least part of the unpaid tab.

    Then the government can deduct those costs from all the other freebies it gives the folks.

    In other words, emergency health costs up in December? Then everyone gets a few dollars less of food stamps.

  • westcoastpatriette

    There are, as a matter of fact, people who never get sick or require expensive health care. Your answers are classic justifications for socialistic answers — a doom and gloom socialist who can’t see two feet in front of her face and wants everyone else to see things her way.

    Why don’t you just admit you are a socialist? Or are you really unaware of free market solutions that would easily deal with the problem without violating our civil liberties? Please, Ann. Save your arguments for a nonconservative website.

  • acat

    anything that rational.

    These are the same Democrat rats who mandated flood insurance premiums so low no insurance companies would actually write the policies.

    Mew

  • Ann2012

    westcoast, you remind me of a typical liberal, when they don’t have an answer they start calling people names. You haven’t even tried to address my concern that I don’t want tax payers paying for someone else’s heath care and since we know they won’t be allowed to die in the street I would like a realistic solution. Not stupid name calling like “socialist.” If I’m a socialist you’re a Marxist. Maybe I should refer to you as Karl it’s about as far- fetched as your name calling.

  • legendsofthepaul

    Now look.

  • Ann2012

    kyle, a typical emergency room visit costs thousands of dollars. Food stamps for one person is about $160 a month. How many months of withdrawing $20 a month from food stamps would it take to pay back that $3000 emergency room visit? There is no easy answer to this. People need to insure themselves so society does not have to keep paying for them through their taxes. It’s not my responsibility to pay for your or anyone else’s health care costs.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    It would not be a personal thing, IF the emergency business cost say one billion in December then one billion is lopped off of other entitlements.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    you are refusing to look at free market solutions, even though those are the only ones that have a chance of working.

    Anything else is just more socialistic meddling in our personal lives in the name of “poor” people of which there are always an infinite number.

    But in the past poor people in this country got health care, now that we have socialism, some of them don’t.

    By the way, you know what is the largest single group of “poor” who use emergency rooms? Illegal immigrants, So, that is another area of concern.

  • Ann2012

    kyle, I see what you mean, that makes more sense. I don’t know what the best solution is but something has to be done to get people to cover their own healthcare costs in life.

    One of the reasons that health care costs are so high is that hospitals have to pass along all the uninsured patient costs to people with insurance which is so unfair. In Los Angeles hospitals go bankrupt because of the illegal alien problem.

  • Ann2012

    I guess I’m being misunderstood tonight, I love free market solutions. And would like to know what they are, so far I haven’t read here or anywhere else a real workable solution to the problem.

    And don’t get me started on the illegal immigration problem, I’m from Los Angeles, no longer there I became too afraid to stay there with all the gang violence. I’m in the midwest now, it’s like being back in America 50 years ago.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    ending state mandates on health insurance – This would allow people to pool their risk among the states and provide a basic catastrophic care package that would be dirt cheap.

    Another is medical savings accounts. Although there is a lot of variation in those proposals. There are a lot of possible solutions out there.

  • Ann2012

    but let’s assume that they worked very well and solved the problem. How do you get irresponsible people to buy even a very low cost package if they would rather have the state i.e. taxpayers, pay for their care.

    And if they were especially irresponsible e.g. overweight, smoker, etc. no one could cover them at a low cost that would be too risky and unprofitable for the insurance company.

    You can’t force an insurance company to take excess risk and go out of business so what do you do when those irresponsible people who were not mandated to buy the health insurance shows up at the emergency room with chest pains? Who pays for them? If they were turned away the hospital would probably get sued by their family.

  • westcoastpatriette

    exaggeration shock therapy if you will, but it is frustrating talking to you so I’m just trying to get you to see that what you are suggesting is “soft” socialism. You act like there are no other answers and there are plenty of free market answers but you keep rejecting them and insisting that the only answer is to legally mandate all of us to be insured to pay for the mess the government has made.

    A very simple answer is to repeal the law mandating all ER’s to treat anyone who shows up in the ER — insured or not. Don’t you think we will manage to make an exception if someone is truly in a life threatening situation? But as I said before, everyone and there illegal uncle is abusing the system by using the ER for all of their health care needs. And why should we be mandated to pay one cent for the treatment of illegal aliens health care? It is insane not to mention unconstitutional. We got along just fine before all these mandates were shoved in our face.

    And instead of you admitting that these problems have been caused by our socialist creeping government, you accuse the taxpayer of acting irresponsibly if they choose not to be insured or take the chance to not be insured. That is their choice. Maybe some people take good care of themselves and never see the doctor or if they do, they pay cash. Wow. What a novel idea.

    I could give you more free market solutions but I don’t think you really want to hear it. In the meantime, don’t be surprised when people react to you with anger. We don’t want the government telling us what to buy or when to buy it. We don’t want them telling us we have to pay for poor people’s every health care need. How could I be any clearer?

  • Ann2012

    the conversation Kyle and I have been having. We’re actually not that far apart. We’re just approaching it from different frustration levels. You don’t want to pay for health insurance and I darn well don’t want to pay for your healthcare costs when you get sick. Don’t you see. Read my posts about illegal aliens, have you had your city occupied by a foreign country like I have?

    You’re looking at it so simplistically and unrealistically. That’s why you’re frustrated talking to me, because I take your argument to its logical solution and it doesn’t go anywhere. We’re back to the same problem.

    We have to find free market solutions that actually work so the Dems don’t have a chance to win control of the government over and over again. I’ve been to the ER quite frequently lately due to some family members. First off they don’t know if it’s life threatening until they get you in the room where they run tests on you. And it literally costs thousands of dollars, I’ve seen the bills.

    I’ll try saying it again and maybe you will understand.

    If you don’t want to buy health insurance because you think you’re super-human and will never get sick then DO NOT come to me to pay your doctor’s bills. I do not want to spend a dime of my taxes paying for your health care because you didn’t feel like forking over the money to pay a health insurance premium. Even if you have cash to pay your bills, others do not and I don’t want to pay for them.

    We wouldn’t be drifting closer and closer to a European financial condition if people were more responsible with their own lives. They’re asking for another 1.2 trillion raise to the debt ceiling. Why don’t they just print 16 trillion, pay everyone back, and get it over with. We can all relive the Weimar Republic.

  • westcoastpatriette

    if someone chooses to not buy health insurance. The only reason people are “coming to you” to pay their doctor bills is because the government is allowing it or forcing it, which ever way you want to look at it. I would never expect you to pay my health care bills if I had any. So don’t put it like that. That is what I resent in your comments. Your mindset is so stuck on the present system, that you have the audacity to call people irresponsible who choose not to buy health insurance. That is elitist bullcrap. I know many fine people who have no choice but to go without health insurance (due to its skyrocketing cost and the depression that we are in) and if they need to see a doctor, they pay cash. That is how it used to work before the government got their mitts in everything and we all managed just fine. So it is your elitist attitude that is getting under my skin.

  • Ann2012

    We have to deal in the real world with real solutions.

    It’s fine to complain on a website about the government but it doesn’t solve anything. You have to come up with a solution then really examine the consequences of that solution to see how realistic it is.

    What I’m getting from you is that you have no solution on what to do with those among us who refuse to pay for health insurance then get sick and expect taxpayers to pay for it. If we didn’t pay for it, then who would? Answer that???

    If you say the answer is that no one would, because doctors and hospitals would not be forced to treat them, that is a valid answer but then tell me you actually believe that the government (white house and congress) would not be voted out of office. See what I mean. It is unrealistic to think that the majority of people in this country would agree with that. And I know you know that.

    So since it can never happen what’s the point of talking about it on a website. We have to come up with answers that actually work in the real world. There are two sides to this argument:

    1. People don’t want to be forced to buy health insurance and want to pay cash or in the case of a catastrophic illness that they can’t afford to pay for, they or their family would have to agree to not be treated and die an early death. (Not very likely)

    2. People that don’t want to pay taxes that go towards the healthcare costs for those that didn’t want to pay for their own health insurance and got sick.

    There is no simple solution to this. Both sides have a conservative point of view. I don’t want to be talking about this next year so let’s just agree to disagree.

    Happy New Year!

  • Joshua Persons

    I have no idea what you’re talking about. geotan’s post stands as a copyright vio no matter what response I have to it.