« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

EDITOR OF REDSTATE

Principle as Political Liability: Even Reagan Understood it

Not to put a RedState reader on the spot, but these comments are rather predictable. Said one commenter to my original post on principle and political liability:

This same false argument was made about Reagan, you know it, I know it, the press knows it. It got him shut out by the GOP leadership in 1976…it got him elected in 1980.

Never run from your principles, NEVER RUN from what you know is right.

It just makes you a traitor to yourself and those who rely on you.

Good people gravitate to persons that act in a principled manner, scary as that may seem to the political class.

Except this comment shows no sense of history.

First, I never said that the candidates should abandon their principles. They should not. But they sure also shouldn’t scare the heck out of independent voters by fixating on their personal positions. For example, Santorum says his position on birth control is a personal one. As a legislator, he never opposed legislation relating to contraceptives. But why spend so much time focusing on his personal view when he makes clear he wouldn’t impose it on others?

But back to Reagan. There is a well established myth about St. Reagan that he said what he meant and he meant what he said with unvarnished truth. Actually, that was Barry Goldwater and Goldwater lost. Badly.

Reagan said what he meant and he meant what he said, but he did so smiling, laughing, and with a lot of fun. And he spoke in a way that was not off putting to independent voters. More so, back in November of 1979, the Reagan campaign was already in danger of being painted as the second coming of Barry Goldwater, so Reagan shook things up a bit.

From the Washington Post on November 29, 1979,

Like a troubled theatrical production that tries out new scenes and actors well away from Broadway, the Ronald Reagan presidential campaign is making big changes on the road.

After the third departure or demotion of a major longtime Reagan adviser in as many months, the Reagan candidacy is losing some of its conservative California appearance and taking on the coloration of its pragmatic Washington campaign director, John P. Sears III.

If you know your history, you know that many of the men who left the Reagan campaign in 1980 remained powerful figures within the conservative movement and closely connected to Ronald Reagan. But on the campaign trail, Reagan could portray a “pragmatic” candidate.

He never wavered from his principles. When he spoke of them, he spoke of them with a smile and jovial tone. But his focus was on fixing the country. When he spoke, he maintained his principles, but did not delve into them so starkly. Check this out from the June 16, 1980, Washington Post:

[S]enior members of Reagan’s camp have been sharply divided about how to present the candidate’s tax and budget policy. A more radical element in this group has pressed for a stark presentation: A Reagan administration would cut taxes 10 percent a year for three years, would “index” tax rates to inflation rates, would eliminate all federal inheritance taxes, would improve tax benefits for private industry, would increase defense spending and would promise lower inflation and smaller deficits.

In practice, this is the line Reagan adopted in the primaries, though never quite so starkly. In one television commercial, this was Reagan’s message:

“High tax rates don’t lower prices, they raise them. In the 1970s taxes grew faster than any other item in the household budget, including the price of energy. High tax rates discourage work and production. They add to the cost of living. If we make a deep cut in everyone’s tax rates, we’ll have lower prices, an increase in production, and a lot more peace of mind.”

Keep the principle. I wouldn’t trust any candidate who abandons his principle. But accept it can be a political liability if not handled properly.

COMMENTS

  • tngal

    None, and I mean none, of our candidates this year have been subtle.

  • wantthegopback

    If you are saying Romney abandons his principles whenever he feels it politically advantageous, but that Santorum maintains his, I agree. If the next point is that Santorum is Being attacked and misrepresented on his principles by the left (and Romney), and he hasn’t handled it as well as he could, I agree. If the next point is that Santorum can come off abrasive or even snotty, I agree.

    But since Reagan isn’t running, I’ll take the guy that needs to polish up his talking points and delivery, over the guy who stands for nada or the guy with all the baggage who wants to colonize the moon.

    Seriously, if we just put up another wishy-washy, “doesn’t really stand for anything”, “he can win cause he is basically a democrat” we will lose, the GOP brand will lose, and we’ll deserve it.

  • runner12

    have miscontrued the previous diary. That is, if they were unfamiliar with RS or anything else EE has written. I do not recall RS ever backing down on principle nor advocating a wishy-washy approach to conservatism.

    The point I believe EE was making is that the way you communicate your principles matters. Good communication does not equal a relinquishing of principle nor taking a squishy stance. It is simply communicating what you believe in a way that inspires people to follow you and not chasing rabbits when doing so.

    For example, as a Christ-follower it matters how I communicate my faith to others. If when doing so I come across as a jerk or begin wading in theological minutiae not central to the Gospel, the critical message I am communicating gets lost in how I communicate it. The same is true for our candidates.

    Not to pick on Santorum, a man whom I believe has good principles, but he made this key mistake. He had a perfect opportunity to hammer home the attack on religious freedom by the Obama administration. Yet he waded off into the woods and his message was lost.

    Has the media grossly distorted what he said? Of course. But don’t they always? Look at how differently they are covering the rising gas prices with Obama vs. how they did with Bush.

    With this hostile media, clear messaging is essential.

  • Bob_Frazier

    Look what we got.

  • aesthete

    IT MAKES ME ANGRY AND I WANT TO BITE IT

  • tnguy

    ….hearts and mind? Instead, conservative candidates should downplay their deepest convictions so as to not make moderates feel uncomfortable….amazing.

    If $4 and $5 gas, high unemployment, and a disastrous national debt doesn’t make them feel far much more uncomfortable than, say, conservatives views on abortion, then the war is already lost anyway.

  • AceInTX

    You know me, I agree with what you say about GHW Bush, Dole, McCain, Romney…and those who advocate running from and abandoning principle alltogether….

    And I can even go along with Gingrich and Santorum being to abrasive in the way they address principled stands on issues…But I most definitely do NOT go along with the notion that we should avoid talking about issues where we know what’s right because we’re trying to appeal to the middle.

    If a candidate or political party can not stand up and proclaim fundemental truth and strive to persuade the electorate, (which includes the mushy middle)…then I would argue that candidate and that party has left behind the reason and justification for his or it’s very existance.

    The reason so many of us pine for another Reagan isn’t becasue we expect perfection and or total agreement with us on every issue…it’sa because we miss having someone who…even when forced to compromise, he gave voice to his opposition and explained the reason for it.

    I’m particularly stunned to read the following from your earlier post:

    <blockquote)It is for level headed strategists, consultants, and pundits to try their best to overcome their partisan world views and accept reality.

    I’d like think I’m missing this…but am I to understand you’re saying we need the Frank Luntzes watering down our conservative message to the poiunt that it means nothing to anybody?

    Please tell me I’m miss reading that?

  • wantthegopback

    Santorum has to work on his messaging. It’s an issue. All I’m saying, is among the three, it’s the least worst issue electability-wise, IMHO

  • JSobieski

    The point: Be aware of political reality. Communication strategy must be adapted to address political realities. This does not mean sacrificing principles.

    For example, we need to address entitlements. However, to do so without acknowledging the political obstacles to success is suicide. Success requires acknowledging reality and having a strategy for dealing with reality.

  • JSobieski

    #1: Eat your spinach and like it

    #2: Hey, have you ever tried spinach? It can be quite tastey, and i find that it augments my efforts to be healthier. I have so much more energy than I used ot have. Do you want to join me for lunch sometime and try a spinach salad? Maybe hit a movie afterwards?

  • WY_Cowboy

    Honestly, I don’t see a constructive one here. So here we have EE pretty much just being a scold to people who support their candidates.

    It seems an awful lot like sour grapes. Of course in EE’s mind he’s trying to help us see how much more smarter he is than we are. Fine, Erick, you’re the smartest guy on the web.

    Now, why don’t you get in the fight instead of lobbing stones at us from the rear. If the party is sinking, and it very well may be, I would rather go down with the ship fighting than be a rat who deserted the ship just to prove how smart I was.

    Your blog posts are not useful, helpful, or constructive. Just sayin’.

  • NeoKong

    He is letting the state run media define him.

    He has to know they hate his guts and are loyal Obama soldiers.
    and the way they shamelessly portrayed his “phony theology” comment is just a taste of how low they are prepared to sink.

    We have debate tomorrow night. Santorum has to understand that CNN will be trying to deliver a knockout punch to him by bringing up Foster Friess and the theology comment.
    He is walking into a trap.
    Every single time a GOP candidate has risen the media mobilized and took him down.
    Every time.
    He had better be prepared.

    I like Santorum well enough. I can support him as the nominee even though he was never my first choice.
    My advice to him would be to go easy on the bible stuff.
    We got the point.
    Santorum is a man of God but sometimes less is more.

    He cannot let the media define him as some sort of tent preaching evangelist and that is exactly what they are tryin to do.
    If he cannot deflect that then he is toast.

  • Russ Martin

    In my opinion, most people (voters) recognize that they’re never going to agree, 100%, with any candidate. They do, however, want a candidate that is convicted, honest, and genuine. I think that this is why so many people have a problem with Romney – he seems to have no convictions.

    I also believe that this is why many conservatives are giving Santorum another look. They may not agree with everything he says, but they appreciate the fact that his opinions don’t change with the wind, or the latest polling data.

    My read on what Eric is trying to say, is that while voters expect you to have opinions on controversial issues, smart candidates don’t spend an inordinate amount of time talking about those issues, particularly when they aren’t the most pressing issues of the day. We all recognize that jobs, the economy, the debt, and national security are winning issues for conservatives in this election.

    As an evangelical Christian, I respect Santorum’s faith. I also respect Romney’s. I disagree on matters of faith, with people in my own congregation. Accordingly, I accept the fact that I will also have disagreements with our ultimate nominee. What I don’t understand, is why Santorum continues to allow himself to be taken “off message” lately. He doesn’t seem to want to keep his eye on the ball.

    There are several issues that many conservatives hold, that are deemed “controversial” with so-called moderates. In my opinion, most of these issues are not really controversial to middle America – we (conservatives) have just lost the messaging battle to the left. Examples include abortion (though we seem to be winning on this one), religion and church vs. state, the death penalty, federalism, gun control, taxes, entitlements, immigration, etc. Now, we watch from the cheap seats as the left (and their surrogates in the media) distracts the American people away from Obama’s failures using this ridiculous red herring of birth control, of all things.

    This issue has me pondering why we, as conservatives, don’t have an organization that helps conservative candidates (at all levels) hone their message on these “controversial” issues? As Eric states, Reagan was the master. He talked about these issues in a clear, but non-threatening way. He didn’t seem to shy away from them; however never allowed himself to be distracted by them, Clear, concise, friendly, convicted – but never angry. You never got the impression that he wanted to cram them down your throat. Our candidates could learn a lot from him.

    Why don’t we have an organization that trains conservative candidates in messaging? One that would teach our candidates how to properly convey the conservative message, issue by issue, to an adversarial media, while at the same time, re-focusing the conversation towards the issues of the day. It sure seems like the left has been doing this for years, and they’re very good at it. Maybe such an organization exists. If one does, it appears as if there is room for some competition.

  • Scope

    I’ve been listening to the reports on the Hugely/Love case taking place here in VA. That’s where George Hugely sent Yardley Love an email saying “I should have killed you” when he found out that she was dating a member of a rival soccer team. He went to her apartment the next day, kicked in her door smashed her head against the wall after twisting her head, and obviously she died from blunt force trauma. The jury was presented with pictures displaying a cracked wide open skull with brain matter showing. Hugely claims that she was alive when he left her apartment, as her body was jumping and spasming all over the bed he left her on. The defense claims that she somehow flipped herself over, and died from smothering herself in her pillow. His murder trial is taking place now.

    The prosecutor, in his closing arguments, again talked about the utter brutality of George Hugely in the premeditated way he went about the horrific crime. He shed a tear at one point in those arguments. The defense attorney went ballistic because of that tear. He told the jury that they were to ignore any and all emotional sentiments, feelings, or displays. They were to only consider the facts in the case without invoking any emotions.

    I have to ask how any human being, even sitting on a jury, can remove any and all emotions? Are they to unzip their skulls, and remove the portion of their brains that controls emotions, and to put that portion off to the side when deciding on a verdict? How is it humanly possible to just flip a switch and turn off all and any emotional sentiments? I don’t think the person is human that can so easily accomplish that. If you sat as a juror, and viewed the evidence, how on God’s green earth can they remove any and all emotion from their decision?

    It appears that EE is suggesting that the pundits, the bloviators, and the whoever else writing about the presidential run is to remove their partisan principles, and look at the reality that the liberals have taken over so much of the country, and we just aren’t big or strong, or principled enough to take them on and stop the damage. That’s like the defense asking jurors to put aside the horrific evidence, and just agree with me. Isn’t this something you would expect to see coming from a Democrat. After all, isn’t it all about the collective and common good? Not.

  • littlehouse18

    the press won’t stop boxing him in. Bob Schieffer sometimes wouldn’t let him get a word in edge-wise on FTN, and did not ask a single substantive question. Santorum had to practically shout over him in order to correct the description of Gabriel’s death.

    I think Santorum needs to refuse to answer any social issues questions tomorrow (except perhaps abortion) and twist every speaking opportunity back to the real issues. Ignore the actual question if necessary.

  • http://practicalgopvoter.blogspot.com/ texasproud

    There is a difference in having an opinion and how you message an opinion. Santorum comes off as someone who imposes his beliefs on you, instead of trying to convince you. People try to say he is like Huckabee, but Huckabee had a refreshing personality that you liked him even when you disagreed with him. I didn’t agree with a number of things but he was the first candidate I donated to 4 years ago. Santorum better get used to the intense grilling. He was never vetted like the other part-time frontrunners who had to answer for things said in their past. We are just starting to turn back the pages on the Santorum era. The inability to avoid obvious landmines like the women on the frontlines should be a loud and clear warning about the type of candidate he will be in the fall. Bob McDonnell, Mitch Daniels, Rick Perry were all able to achieve significant social issue victories by understanding the communication side of their policy. The words you use can help sell ice to an eskimo, but the wrong rhetoric won’t

  • acat

    I won’t be holding my breath, though.

    Santorum proved he could redirect Schieffer over Gabriel .. but for reasons I can only guess at, chose only to redirect on that issue.

    Why didn’t Santorum try even once to talk economy or energy or jobs?

    Mew

  • Scope

    How many comments have we read here that if we stay on the message of social issues, and now especially the contraceptive issue, we are going to lose the election. I think the Democrats missed that message, as Moochelle Obama is now courting women voters by promising them free contraceptives. Her message even goes so far as to say that female employees of religion-based hospitals and universities will be covered with free contraception.

    It’s laughable to hear so many suggest that we should just STFU about social issues or we will lose the election, all while the liberals are out there promising yet another free handout to gain votes. So we say shut up, and they say free, and we continue to lose the elections. The same applies to entitlement reform that no one will touch, from either party, because it’s a losers position to take.

  • acat

    Drudge Report may be “in the tank” for Romney .. but that doesn’t make the utterly tone-deaf Santorum article he’s running any more palatable.

    “Satan has his sights on the United States of America!” Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum has declared.

    “Satan is attacking the great institutions of America, using those great vices of pride, vanity, and sensuality as the root to attack all of the strong plants that has so deeply rooted in the American tradition.”

    Last time I checked, we’re electing a temporal leader, not a spiritual one….

    To Bill S.’s point – we don’t ask candidates to check their beliefs at the door. We do, generally, expect them to talk about their solutions to temporal problems more than they talk about their religious beliefs, though.

    Mew

  • littlehouse18

    Last night on Hannity I believe he spent some time discussing energy at least ( I was tired and don’t remember much more). On Michigan’s ‘Off the Record’ he spoke extensively on all the real issues. At one point, some guy brought up gay marriage and he did refuse to respond, pivoting to the economy.

  • gmscan

    I am really tired of hearing that Goldwater lost because he was too conservative. No, he didn’t. He lost because Kennedy was killed just a year before. He lost in a tidal wave of sympathy for the fallen president and his political legacy. There are NO lessons to be learned from the Goldwater defeat. None. It was unique.

  • littlehouse18

    It’s clear he is determined to bring Santorum down and drag Romney across the finish line. His new headline is despicable. He neglects to mention that this speech was in 2008 and at a religious institution, burying this information deep in his story. Yeah, I know, the MSM will probably do this anyway, still…

    Actually, Santorum has a point which can be generalized to different people’s differing concepts of “Satan.” One could see Satan in many ways: a willful external entity, or, that which separates us from God, for example – our fallen, sinful nature.

    Santorum has a way of speaking the truth, even a sometimes ugly truth no one wants to acknowledge.

  • acat

    The truth Santorum should be talking about where he can both cite a clear difference between himself and Obama, and that polling suggests votes are interested in. Things like jobs, the economy, health care, social security, medicare …

    Mew

    ** title stolen from Ace of Spades

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    if he really wanted to stop government spending.

    But, too bad you can’t trust Lucifer what with him being the father of lies and all that, Stands to reason he would probably run as a Democrat.

  • Dave_A

    The man can be expected to appeal to religion – he’s talking to a religious congregation….

    I doubt he’ll be using hellfire-and-brimstone rhetoric in a general election campaign, the same way he would at a private speaking engagement when not running for office…

    All 08 does, is prove what we already know – the guy is devout & believes in God & Satan… Yawn….

  • acat

    His interview with Schiffer was a perfect example – after any of Santorum’s answers, he could have said “Bob, I’d like to talk about the economy” or “Bob, I’d like to discuss jobs” .. but he didn’t.

    The model here is Rick Perry, who was rather heavily involved in a Texas prayer meeting immediately before getting into the race .. and then talked *primarily* about issues voters care about.

    Santorum is, as NeoKong pointed out above, headed right into a trap because he’s not pivoting.

    Mew

  • red_oakster

    Reagan opted to go with a conservative campaign and did so by firing Sears before the New Hampshire results were in.

    Right now, the leftist press is going hysterical. But Santorum need only stick to his message discipline. The bottom line is that American society is much more conservative than the liberal media is willing to admit. Santorum will create big headaches for Obama in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Wisconsin. If Santorum wins the nomination, he will come across as a committed family man. The latest Gallup polling shows he will run a competitive race should he be the nominee. Relax.

  • JSobieski

    Combined they account for maybe 15% of the vote in some places, less in other places.

    Nobody is telling social conservatives to put a sock in anything.

    Nor are anyone but Paul and Johnson supporters saying that social issues have no place in politics.

    What many are asking is that since only a small percentage (lets say 10%) of federal government issues are social issues, that we shouldn’t spend 50% or more of the campaign talking about social issues.

    I know that proportionality is such a challenging concept, but it is the key to understanding the frustration on many voters.

    The debt is the biggest issue on the horizon, but our candidates spend virtually no time discussing it.

    Entitlements are a big part the the debt, but only the smallest part of the campaign discussion on economics.

    The time spent on certain issues should be directly related to their impotortance in the general election—not inversely related.

  • Scope

    When Ron Paul was campaigning in Iowa, he very conveniently became a great social conservative, to pander for votes with the majority of social conservatives in Iowa. Low and behold, he even became a staunch supporter of those against gay marriage. Interestingly, now he tells Candy Crowley that social issues should not be a part of the R primaries. That’s from the guy who is supposed to be so honest, and has stuck with his positions for years and years.

    Furthermore, if you can honestly claim that there haven’t been many many who have commented here, over the last week especially, that we need to drop the social issue talk because it’s a loser, then you haven’t been reading very much posted here. How many have come out and complained that the contraceptive talk is not necessary and is very misplaced, and that we need to talk about the economy, not social issues. Honestly, have you been reading the comments? To say that no one is saying to put a sock in it is to be purposefully blind.

    There are some that only have eyes for fiscal discussions. They think that the only thing the R’s should be focused on and talking about is the economy. You are one of them. That is your choice of topic for discussion. Fortunately you don’t get to control the narrative or the debate. There are many conservatives that believe they can walk and chew gum at the same time. The economy is your interest and your bag, it isn’t the only thing on many minds.

    For one, you can guarandamntee that the economy is going to be reported as being robust by November. The unemployment numbers are already being played with to make unemployment look as though it is falling. The DOW hit 13,000 today, and the Dems are celebrating and partying at what a great job Obama has done. Moochele is out there promising free contraception to all women. When gas prices go up, Obama is poised to say he already covered everyone’s back with the continuing payroll tax cuts to help buy gas.

    If the Republicans can’t talk about anything other than the economy and jobs, we are lost big time. According to some of the biggest libs, they claim that the R’s don’t have anything else to talk about but the social issues, as look at how GM came roaring back, and they are getting help out there to those with underwater mortgages, and they can’t attack Obama on the economy because he has been wildly successful with that issue. They lie, but since most of the news sources for too many, will keep hammering Obama’s success, how are you going to let those he has done so much for know that he is a liar?

    The economy and jobs may be your issues to focus on like a lazer, but if polling holds up, there are many more that have other things on their minds in addition.

  • Scope

    n/t

  • naraht

    I think Huntsman had been subtle, but he didn’t stay in long enough to get to the people who wanted subtle.

  • Scope

    This has already been talked about on CNN in full this afternoon. Mary Matilin (sp) a Republican put the whole thing into context to Wolf Blitzer. He wasn’t having any of it. Santorum used the word Satan that bad man. Mary said that it really wasn’t an issue if taken in correct context, and Blitzer didn’t miss the cahnce to tell her that it may not matter to her, but it will matter to all those in the mainstream.

    I can feel the desperation in the voices, and in the presentation of stories by the libs. They are absolutely scared to death of Santorum’s current position in the polls, and the fact that Obama may have to go up against him. After all, the entire Obama administration, as well as years and years of work by the libs even when out of office, has been the goal of the complete social re-engeneering of society into their socialist utopian vision. Every single issue they have touched has social implications in some way or manner.

  • naraht

    The odd thing is that Michigan is probably the best state to talk about Gay Marriage both now and in the General Election. Of all of the states that have voted for a Democrat in the last 5 elections, Michigan is the *only* state where not only is Marriage between a man and a woman is in the State Constitution, it also includes that there be no equivalents to Civil Unions or anything like that.

  • Scope

    of Santorum was taken up by playing one video after the next of things Santorum said. The better idea would be to not agree to interview with any leftists unless you know what subjects will be covered and in what manner. Then refuse the interview as you know it’s a setup.

  • goodgovernance

    who had anything like a Reaganesque touch to him this time around. Not saying he was quite as good as Reagan on the stump, otherwise he might have caught on sooner in New Hampshire. But then, Reagan campaigned for president in three different cycles and had a lot more experience at this sort of thing.

    Huntsman’s optimism and devotion to country were so evident, but this time around the base wanted someone who reflected their anger. Maybe in these bad economic times that’s the right tone to go for, but in the long run being the angry party will not win over our fellow Americans. We’re fundamentally an optimistic people, the way Reagan was, and which is why Reagan won despite all the initial doubts about him.

  • acat

    It was provided to me in another diary

    Nothing appears to have prevented Santorum from saying “Bob, I’ve answered your questions, now I want to talk about Obama” … but the only time he pushed back was on the death of his child.

    While I respect Santorum for that push-back, I’d like to see him use it a bit more, eh?

    Mew

  • rightland1111

    and led the interview…much like Gingrich did. Keeping him in this social conservative box will not draw in Indies.

  • aesthete

    “Santorum ain’t bad, but he needs to stop getting distracted and focus on the real issues”, essentially.

    Problem is — that’s not Santorum getting distracted, or being beguiled by the media — for Santorum, “the real issues” *are* the distraction. He’s been a social issues-centric guy since at least 2000ish, and entered the race as the guy focused on social issues. Expecting him to change is expecting a leopard to change his stripes.

    SMOD 2012, as the kids say.

  • aesthete

    are so gung-ho for Ron Paul.

    Why were some of the fiscal conservatives excited about Perry, Daniels, and Huntsman (social conservatives all) turned off by Santorum?

  • aesthete

    In two weeks Santorum will be assuring us that he has no desire to ban Lucifer, and that he actually voted to subsidize Satanism as a Senator.

  • Scope

    but, as I’ve said more than a few times here, I don’t have any access to high speed internet to allow me to watch videos. I found a a transcript of the interview.

    You are being very dishonest to say that Santorum should have told Bob that he wanted to turn the conversation back to Obama, when most everything in the interview was turning his arguments back to the Obama agenda. I read the transcript without seeing the faces, or hearing the voices. I’ve said before that I believe reading the printed words are much more revealing than watching the facial expressions, hearing the voice modulation, and leaving out the clapping and/or booing is much more educational. You concentrate on the words rather than the noise surrounding it.

    To accuse Santorum of not being able to control the interview, to turn it into what he wants to talk about, and getting away from the social issues is tantamount for you to prove viability. Santorum owned that interview IMHO.

    Despite the fact that Bob began his intro with saying that in a 24 hour period Santorum accused Obama of not being a Christian was the come on which Santorum handled beautifully. Santorum made it clear that Obama worshiping at the altar of global warming, and putting the earth before humans was perfect. When Santorum tied Obama into federally controlled education mandates it was perfect.

    I have no clue why you would say that Santorum flubbed the interview, and should have told Bob that he wanted to talk about the economy, when Santorum tied the federal government spending into Obama’s green energy policies, and his massive mandated educational policies.

    acat, it is appearing more and more obvious to me that Santorum is more and more disgusting to those who call themselves libertarians, and the attacks against him, masked in the cloak of his fiscal appostises (sp) is a smoke screen for a much deeper seated fear. Santorum is actually willing to talk about the social issues that libertarians would prefer to be taken out of the discussion. You have consistently claimed that he really has never had any foreign policy creds, even with links provided for his work with a foreign policy think tank, and his position on a Senate committee that was all foreign policy. You have consistently refused to acknowledge his whole record, and have accused some that have linked info as their info being incomplete. If it was possible, I would be shivering from the libertarian hatred against him that has come out from the libertarian faction on RS. That smoke before the mirrors from the libertarians is getting a little too thick.

  • Scope

    Daniels never got in the race. I can’t say that Santorum turned off the fiscal conservatives as he wasn’t on the radar back then. Given the current choices, Santorum isn’t doing a bad job of attracting support, even from the fiscal conservatives who were denied their choices when those choices dropped out, or didn’t enter the race. It’s really very simple if you look around outside your little box.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Let’s have this out with the media and the Left and after months when it is apparent that Santorum’s POLICIES AS DEFINED BY WHAT HE HAS AND HAS NOT proposed are compared with what Jeremiah Wright’s acolyte HAS imposed on America, I am confident in the outcome.

    You know, Erick is a Bible Believing Christian too and his views are all on this blog for the past 7 years and if he ran for office, he would have to explain them.

    Let’s have this battle and if America is a nation of secular takers that care more about intellectual pagan snobbery than than the liberty dispensed by a REAL Christian then so be it. We aren’t going to fool a majority into voting for us by pretending we are “moderate”.

  • Scope

    and so overcome with your desire that social issues not be covered by the Republicans, because it’s all about the economy dangit, that you people are getting more than a little paranoid with your posts. This more than proves that the libertarians have no place in the Republican party. There is more to life with the conservatives than just fiscal issues, if you aren’t a libertarian trying to overtake the Republican party and make it about what you want it to be.

  • aesthete

    Everything that you said is completely irrelevant to my post.

  • aesthete

    without a properly calibrated sarcasm detector, kids.

  • acat

    (obligatory Akbar)

    Santorum is running – not walking – to his own doom.

    As long as he keeps talking about social issues – whether they’re in opposition to liberal social positions or not – he’s defining himself as a non-serious non-issues candidate

    If you don’t see that, by not changing the subject, Santorum allowed himself to be defined by Scheiffer instead of defining himself, there’s really no point in conversing.

    Eh. Know what, Scope? You’re absolutely wrong – but you’ve convinced me of something… I should shut up about Santorum and let him go off the cliff under his own power.

    Mew

  • aesthete

    For the sake of arguments, let us say that all of the issues on which there has been controversy get hashed out, Santorum bests the media/the Democrats/the libertarians/whoever his particular ideological foe is. Let us say that he argues these points so superbly, that every one of his opponents, when asked to prepare a rebuttal, is completely and utterly unable to do so on account of the rightness and logic of his position…

    What, then? We’re still in the exact same spot as before. Contraceptives will continue to be used by Americans in the same quantities and for the same purposes, gays will continue to be gay, Satan will continue to be Satan, and everything will continue as before. Is this what you want? A debater-in-chief who wins a bunch of arguments with people that the American public by and large isn’t aware of… who does not address resolvable issues facing the US, and who marginalizes himself by concentrating on these non-issues? I’d like for the following:

    1) A President who knows what his job is.

    2) A President who tells us what he will do pursuant to those responsibilities.

    3) A President who can do these things.

    Santorum seems to think that the Presidency entails scolding people who don’t conform to his faith. I don’t care if he wants to do some of that on the side: that’s his business. When he’s interviewing, I expect him to talk about things that are relevant to the job he’s applying for. Him talking about things that are mostly not relevant to the job sends me the same message as a doctor who wants to tell a prospective employer all about his golfing abilities, but not about how well he did as a doctor or in medical school: that he’s not serious about his profession. During the time that Santorum has been the spotlight (well really, throughout his career), we’ve been talking about the sideshows that he chooses, of his own volition, to bring up. Less so about his plans for government (that thing he’s supposed to be leading as POTUS).

  • acat

    First, you accuse libertarians of telling you to put a sock in it, and now you’re telling us to shut up and get out of “your” party.

    Good grief.

    Mew

  • aesthete

    by your mere presence and disagreement” don’t you understand, ‘cat? It’s sort of like how equal treatment in Lebanon was forcing Muslims to the back of the bus by not allowing them the freedom to impose Sharia on their Christian neighbors, eh?

    But seriously, good catch. Didn’t notice that connection.

  • Scope

    and I still stand by my comment. The libertarians are insane with the possibility of a possible strong social conservative president. I know, you would rather not talk about the social issues. Libertarians think that if you don’t talk about those issues, then you don’t have to defend your out of the mainstream views on those issues. Man acat, you are fired up and ready to fight, unfortunately you are on the wrong side of the issue. I can actually feel the smoke coming out of the RS tri-fecta of resident libertarians against Santorum.

  • retrocon87

    There is a difference between “not wanting them covered at all” and “not wanting to transform the debate from the economy and the debt to amniocentesis and contraception”……… I am a social conservative who wants to win this thing, and the way we’ll do it will be by focusing on the economy and the debt… not by making the entire focus of our campaign about how we think 80% of the electorate is going straight to hell. We have to win the election before we can appoint socially conservative judges.

  • acat

    Sure sounds like Erick’s got some issues with Santorum. Leon’s not a fan either.

    It’s not about libertarians, Scope. It’s about Santorum being a lousy general election candidate.

    Mew

  • Leon H. Wolf

    Doesn’t mean that one isn’t in favor of small government.

    I realize this is more properly addressed to Scope than to you.

  • Scope

    just because one isn’t a libertarian doesn’t mean they are not in favor of a smaller government. That’s been a big part of my argument, though not articulated very well. The libertarians don’t have the lock on the small government position. They also don’t have a lock on being against the “establishment” elites. They just want to make it appear as though everyone else doesn’t have those clues, and only they support those positions.

  • acat

    (no text)

  • Scope

    People can have problems with various candidates for their own reasons. I never implied that EE or Leon were libertarians because they have their own separate issues with Santorum, and neither should you imply that.

  • Leon H. Wolf

    What I will say is that even though I am first and foremost a social conservative, I am not a fan of Santorum because (at least in part) I do not believe he will fight for smaller government.

  • acat

    You’re the one trying to fit my objection to him into your anti-libertarian worldview.

    Mew

  • Scope

    in my reply. I never implied that only Santorum would be in favor of a smaller government. I never implied that Romney or Gingrich would be in favor of smaller government. I don’t believe that any remaining candidate is ideal with smaller government positions, or any other positions. I’ve said that they are all flawed terribly, but my personal choice is Santorum because I personally believe he is the best one left standing. If you remember I was a Perry supporter as I believed he was the only one that would have truly shaken up Washington, and worked hard to make it smaller. He is no longer an option. One must chose from the best that is left. My personal choice is Santorum. I know you have gone to the Romney camp Leon from a previous post of yours. If you believe that he will be the best to make government smaller, that’s your choice.

  • aesthete

    are the same ones that the “libertarians” on this board have made: that Santorum has no record of being for smaller government, and that he’s putting way too much emphasis on social issues.

  • Scope

    I’d think they are getting tired at this point from all of your attacks against anyone who you think is dumb enough to support Santorum. It’s getting boring.

  • Scope

    that you believe Santorum is a flawed candidate and therefore no one should support him. That’s your opinion and view. Your view is not universal.

  • Bill S

    in just how small we think government should be. I think many conservatives – not just social conservatives – believe there is more room for government than libertarians do. Do we here think government should be smaller? Sure. And I’ll speak for myself here, but I think there is more room for government than most garden-variety libertarians, not to mention libertines.

    Government is not bad – too much of it is. “Just how much is too much?” is the $64k question.

  • aesthete

    Well, except maybe the libertines part… I can’t think of a single mass movement of libertines dedicated to smaller government.

    I would also say that it’s neither here nor there when we have a government as large and unaccountable as the one that we’re currently saddled with, as we’re so far from the point at which government becomes acceptable to either party that, directionally, we’re all pulling the same way.

  • Bill S

    .

  • acat

    Specifically:

    “The dose makes the poison.”

    We may disagree on how far to cut, Bill S., but I’m quite confident neither of us want to see government get bigger…

    Mew

  • JSobieski

    A conservative who abides by the idea of a federal government of enumerated powers should be far harder to distinguish from a libertarian than is currently true.

    I have always self identified as a social conservative, but at the federal level, I must admit that practical libertarianism and doctrinaire conservatism are as close together as modern conservatism is with classical John Locke liberalism.

  • acat

    I fully accept that Santorum is a flawed candidate.

    Because of his flaws, I question why people support him.

    As I recognize that I’m not omniscient, and that my views are far from universal, I have *repeatedly* asked questions to try to clarify why others believe Santorum can win.

    This is not attacking, nor is it about political ideology – it is about Santorum having some significant flaws that his supporters have a self-selected duty to be able to explain.

    Mew

    p.s. I am also a Perry supporter. It’s not about religion.

  • Bill S

    But yes, you’re exactly right. More would not be better.

  • Bill S

    The theory that the state should control the issues like you’re referring to is quaint, but it’s not reality. Repeatedly, the federal judiciary has demonstrated that they have no qualms about sticking their noses into the states’ rights, basically negating federalism.

    This is why social conservatives have found it necessary to take issues that probably should be at the state level up to the federal level. The Left has been able to push their agenda through the courts, thus making it necessary to look to federal laws and potential constitutional amendments to negate the Left’s lock on the judiciary.

  • JSobieski

    Both can unite on pushing back at the federal level, and then agreeing to disagree at the state level.

    The issue isn’t disagreements as to how far to cut back against the federal government, but what the proper scope of state governments should be after the federal beast is tamed.

    I don’t see federalism and the 10th Amendment as quaint–I see them as terms of engagement to unite groups that think of themselves as enemies when they really should be allies.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    God bless

  • acat

    a plan to neuter the Left.

    Preferably with a rusty spoon.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    ALL people talk about things that are on a continuum of relevancy and the media has a double standard and do this every campaign. Reagan spent months explaining religious and other “irrelevant” statements.

    I though we wanted a non-McCain that would tale on Obama?

    We have him.

  • septembergurl

    I supported Huntsman because he seemed to me to be the most Reaganesque of the Republican field in 2012.

    He was a candidate who could promote conservatism while governing as a representative of all the people, as Coolidge and Reagan did.

    Optimistic, pro-business, pro-American, with wide expertise in trade and diplomacy, what was I thinking…..

    I looked at who would govern well as President. But as you point out, he was selling optimism and expertise, and Republicans had been primed to demand anger and flame-throwing.

  • katem

    Could not agree with you more. Reaganesque was how I described Huntsman to people too. In addition to the Reagan optimism, he has Bush Senior’s diplomatic/international experience, which should have been a real plus. Huntsman was unquestionably the most electable conservative in the race. Hopefully he will be back in 2016 if we lose in November.

    If we get to the contested convention that all the pundits are talking about, and Jeb Bush is persuaded to jump into the race and emerges as the candidate, I think Huntsman would be the best choice for vice presidential nominee. Jeb Bush/Jon Huntsman would be a strong ticket and would draw a lot of independent voters. That’s what we need, especially with an improving economy.

  • acat

    When have you advocated for smaller government?

    Mew

  • tacitus56

    Erick writes, “But why [should Santorum] spend so much time focusing on his personal view [his moral opposition to contraception] when he makes clear he wouldn’t impose it on others?”

    That’s the problem–Santorum HAS suggested he would impose it on others. When he sat down with a Christian blogger in October, he said, “One of the things I will talk about that no president has talked about before is the dangers of contraception in this country.” He goes on to chronicle problems he feels are exacerbated by contraception, and then says, “These are important public policy issues. These have profound impact on the health of our society.”

    You can see the video here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN7WfIZh690

    That sure sounds like an assurance that a President Santorum would, indeed, make restricting access to contraception part of his administration’s health policy. This is repugnant not just to left wingers, but also to limited-government advocates who don’t want Big Government telling two adults what they should or shouldn’t do in the bedroom.