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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

I Have No Sympathy for Gary Stein

By: Erick Erickson (Diary)  |  April 11th, 2012 at 11:59 AM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Gary Stein is an active duty Marine who has taken to Facebook to complain about President Obama. He’s apparently come to RedState too, including ending one post with “NoBama 2012.”

As you can see by the comments he didn’t get the reception here that he thought he’d get.

I’m a bit appalled by the conservatives who have decided to rally around this guy. Were he doing this to George W. Bush, a great many people on the right now supporting him would be calling for a court-martial. The irony, of course, is that many on the left now calling for him to be disciplined would have been perfectly okay with him going after Bush. They would have treated him as a celebrity.

Some areas of life should be removed from partisan politics. One of those should be active duty military. Gary Stein and many of our enlisted may not like their Commander-in-Chief, but he is still their Commander-in-Chief duly elected by 51% of the voting American public. What these soldiers, sailors, and Marines do on their own time, out of uniform, and not in service is a-okay with me. They don’t completely surrender their first amendment rights.

Stein has gone beyond that though and does not seem to think he has any obligation, while in uniform, to show proper respect to his commander. On his Facebook page, he allowed Obama = Hitler comparisons. In his writings, he thinks soldiers should pick and choose which orders to comply with.

It wasn’t right when left-wing soldiers did it to George W. Bush and it is not right when left-wing soldiers do it to Barack Obama. I have no sympathy for the guy and I really am appalled at some conservatives out there rallying around the guy.

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COMMENTS

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  • Wubbies World

    … I am a full supporter of the first amendment. However, having served under Presidents Clinton and Bush I have learned its okay to disagree but it is not okay to show contempt for officers appointed over me. it can’t be allowed.

    I have not followed the story of this guy. So, I cannot offer a specific opinion on it. What I can offer is that I know there is a very important distinction between private opinions and very public opinions. I have always kept my facebook page locked down and limit my “friends” to family and close friends. I do not add those I am not very close too. Because of that, what I put there is kept private, but I still cannot trumpet contempt for my commanding officers publicly, and I most certainly would not do that.

    However, my immediate family and closest friends do know my actual personal feelings on specific issues. It needs to stay private though.

    I do not know the extent of what this guy did, but as a military member, care and discretion needs to be used.

  • onemovoter

    I did a 6 year enlistment tour in the Air Force from 92 to 98. Over the time during the military draw down during the Clinton administration, things got tough.

    It culminated with the “blue dress” episode and seeing the CIC disgrace the Office of the President. He was a joke to nearly all of us in the military as anyone who was caught committing adultery was prosecuted and discharged dishonorably.

    To us it was a slap in the face of the high military standards we all lived by. However, even with all of that going on we never publicly went out and derided our CIC. We were professionals and did our jobs as ordered.

    Gary Stein’s actions to me are a stain on the military profession and standards that many of us were and are a part of. I can understand how some conservatives might cheer his actions, but this conservative will not. I hope this gives others some insight into why, and pass this insight on to others.

  • scook84

    An american fighting man should only hold allegiance to the Constitution. His allegiance to the office of the president should only be commensurate with the allegiance the office of the president has for the Constitution.

    The American fighting man is fighting for that which is enshrined within the Consittution, NOT for the person holding the position.

  • Michael M. Keohane

    that civilians do not have, one of these obligations is to refrain from overt political activity while in uniform. I wore my country’s uniform for nine years and was politically active in my role as a citizen but never in uniform. I don’t care what your politics are – don’t soil the uniform.

  • scook84

    So, what, exactly, did he do while in uniform to “sully’ it? What he writes on his Facebook page, if on his own time, is his business and is no different than going into a bar and letting off steam..

  • JSobieski

    Case in point: how often have you heard of this issue in the context of a bar rant?

  • scook84

    The only ones who see the Facebook page are his friends. Just like in a bar.

    ……………………………………………………………………..
    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • Bill S

    There are hundreds of thousands of Facebook users whose security settings allow anyone to view their wall.

  • streiff

    When someone enlists in the Armed Forces they take this oath

    “I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

    How any thinking, strike that, sentient being could think it is a good idea for heavily armed men to make their own decisions on what is Constitutional is beyond me.

  • streiff

    if it isn’t too late.

    The guy was everywhere, announcing himself as a USMC sergeant.

  • https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Gary-Stein/161097993929079 Gary Stein

    Mr. Erickson,

    First thank for bringing attention the issue. I would like to point out the bigger issue here. Do Military members lose the very rights the have put their lives on the life for? I would agree that we do… to a point. I sum those up in 3 categories 1. Calling for violence 2. Calling for mutiny 3. Treason. These fall along the lines of what lawyers learn in law school, that you can’t run into a burning building and yell “FIRE!” and then claim free speech.
    My message is two fold. First Military members do not lose the right to speak out through social media on topics such as politics and policy so long as they do in a way that does not imply endorsement from the Military. This is exactly what the DOD Directive 1344.10 boils down to. Which if you look any of the pages I have created or admin I have disclaimers stating that.
    Second, Military members swore to uphold and defend the Constitution. We must know the difference between lawful and unlawful orders. It is our duty to not follow unlawful orders. “just following orders” is not a justification or defense at trial.
    I hope, sir, if you have more questions or would like hear the whole story, just not what you hear in the media that you contact me at armedforcestp@gmail.com

    Gary Stein

  • streiff

    Not even a little true.

  • streiff

    you made a conscious decision to piss on 200-plus years of US military tradition, not to mention breaking federal law and military regulations. You didn’t do it once, you did it repeatedly. Now that you have a sensitive part of your body caught in the wringer you want sympathy.

  • https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Gary-Stein/161097993929079 Gary Stein

    Also I have never announced my self as “Sgt Stein” The media might write that but I can not control what some writer writes. I have also introduced myself as Gary Stein.

  • JSobieski

    While I appreciate the respectful nature of your disagreement, Facebook like the Internet generally records information for the purposes of dissemination.

    The rules of dissemination are subject to Facebook’s policies, but even with maximized privacy settings, it is far different than a normal conversation.

  • scook84

    When we lose the Republic (if we haven’t already) Remember this:

    1. The oath of a politician, government officer, and a soldier means nothing if it is not enforced.
    2. Why is it OK for a politician to denigrate the military publicly but the military cannot say what’s on their mind privately?
    3. I did not hear of this issue until the news media brought it out.
    4. What are we fighting for?

    Nice manners there, Streiff. Way to encourage conversation.

    ………………………………………………………………………………

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY

  • JSobieski

    You may have a viable legal case based on the technicality you identify above, but a viable legal case is different from the higher standard of doing the right thing.

    You definitely put into play events that you had good reason to know would or could end up as they did.

    Military personnel do give up many of their constitutional rights upon enlistment. To get those rights back, you have to leave the military. Military personnel do not get to assert constitutional rights as if they were civilians.

  • westcoastpatriette

    “We were professionals and did our jobs as ordered.” The lack of decorum and professionalism can be seen throughout the land as morality crumbles and with it a lack of respect for authority. The lack of professionalism in the MSM, for example, has brought journalism down to levels of disdain. They disregard ethical standards and deliberately distort stories to influence the public in exchange for political power and influence. As a result, they are rapidly losing the respect and confidence of the public.

    Every profession should have ethical standards that provide boundaries for how to conduct oneself with honor and integrity. But, today, we look around and see lawlessness and despicable conduct from people in positions of influence and power and it is getting harder and harder to stop the tide from engulfing us. This is probably what happened to Gary Stein. His contempt for Obama — which is understandable — got the best of him and he felt justified in speaking out.

    Kudos to you and the rest of the military for respecting the office of the presidency even while the person occupying that office behaved so ashamedly.

  • papabear

    I treated Pres. Bush (Sr.) & Pres. Clinton with all the respect the office deserved while I was in uniform. When not in uniform, my friends and family knew that I thought that Pres. Bush was a poor substitute for Pres. Reagan. Later, they knew that I did not respect Pres. Clinton’s character.

    If I would have been candid, I would have said that I despised Pres. Clinton. At the time, I knew the depth of the damage we had suffered from Pres. Clinton’s leaking our warhead guidance technology to China. However, this information was not public at the time. I couldn’t say that Pres. Clinton’s greed and negligence had advanced China’s nuclear guidance technology by a generation.

    I despise Pres. Obama even more than Pres. Clinton. Although no single act has damaged the U.S. to the same extent as the leak of nuclear guidance technology, the cumulative effect of Pres. Obama’s “leadership” has been an order of magnitude worse. That does not excuse service members showing public disrespect towards the office of the President of the United States.

    If you respect the constitution that you swore an oath to defend, you will respect the office of the President of the United States.

    No. Exceptions.

  • JSobieski

    Rule of thumb: if a group of people have an official privacy policy, the exchange of information isn’t really private

    Fighting is to preserve the constitutional rights of civilians. Military personnel do not have the same rights. They temporarily give up many rights while serving in the military.

  • aesthete

    and stated explicitly that Obama was an illegitimate President, and several circumstances under which he wouldn’t take orders from him.

    There’s no question that he knew exactly what he was doing, and a military discharge was absolutely the right call.

    An other-than-honorable discharge may have been a bit much (and Stein might be able to get it to be an honorable discharge), but this was an appropriate and acceptable discharge.

  • Green_Lantern

    I don’t care if you’re a front pager or not. That’s poor behavior and I’m calling you on it.

  • streiff

    with people who are completely ignorant of what they are writing about so please don’t be offended when I tell you I have no interest in encourage you to comment here.

    1. Non sequitur unless you are referring to the oath Stein disregarded.

    2. Non sequitur as what is at issue is not what was said privately but what was said publicly.

    3. And that means what? I didn’t hear of 9/11 until the media reported it.

    4. We aren’t fighting for anarchy.

  • streiff

    or is that heartsmacked and gobbroken? I forget, but I’m one or the other.

  • scook84

    But I have some questions:

    1. Are we a nation of law or of men?
    2. Does the oath a military member makes mean anything?
    3. At what point, and how far gone, does the nation need to be before we realize most of our “leaders” holding in elected office are subverting the Constitution?
    4. Why get all righteous against an enlisted man but not hold the AG, HHS, POTUS, and others accountable for ignoring the rule of law?

    Respectfully.. We are chasing a gnat while the elephants roam.

    …………………………………………………………………………………………….

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY

  • gekster

    Use the search box at the top right and punch in your concerns.
    You will see that all of them have been adressed at one time or another.

  • scook84

    You are who you are..

    I am who I am..

    How you feel is your concern.

    But it is nice letting everyone know.

    :-)

    …………………………………………………………………………..

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Gary-Stein/161097993929079 Gary Stein

    I have mentioned many times I respect the President… I don’t agree with is polices. As Gary Stein, the American, I have the right to speak about that

  • renl57

    There’s nothing requiring a soldier to vote for Obama on Election Day.

    Heck, if a soldier said on his Facebook wall that he’s voting for Romney because of the economy, etc., I doubt that the Army would consider that insubordination to the President.

    But for a soldier to publicly call the President illegitimate or in violation of the Constitution is practically seditious for a soldier in a time of war (and yes, we’re still at war).

    Let’s make sure that “Seven Days in May” remains fiction.

  • streiff

    just curious.

  • mikeymike143

    now that was a man that had our genuine respect. :)

  • scook84

    I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.?

    If one doesn’t support or defend it against ALL enemies foreign and DOMESTIC?

    I have no problem with the oath. I swore to uphold it for 14 years. An oath means nothing if it is not enforced. With all this talk about the lack of morality amongst politicians, MSM, etc, why is it moral NOT to speak out in support of the law? Do we support the Constitution ONLY when we don’t have to actually act on it?

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Gary-Stein/161097993929079 Gary Stein

    “I am sad to see a Marine Sergeant may lose his career because he dared to criticize the President on a Facebook page. Should we have disciplined this young NCO? Yes. But to end this Warrior?s career with a less than honorable discharge is not the answer. This Marine had served nearly nine years in the Marine Corps and was planning to reenlist. Maybe if America had leadership that gained the respect of our military, instead of simply using them as stage props for speeches, this atmosphere would not exist.” ~ Congressman Lt. Col. Allen West

  • JSobieski

    West clearly says “yes” to the question of you deserving discipline.

    Your comments elsewhere in this thread suggest that you were doing nothing wrong.

    I am sympathetic to your plight, but disagree that doing what you did was proper or smart.

    Service personnel do give up many of their constitutional rights while they serve. That is the nature of things.

  • JSobieski

    while your legal case is still pending.

  • scook84

    I know this issues have been addressed.. Have they been acted on? If so, how?

    …………………………………………………………………………………………

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • aesthete

    Do you agree with this? If so, then what punishment do you think would be appropriate for yourself, and why? I assume that you had the rules about politicking, and the strong culture against strident politics while representing the military, drilled into your head along with the rest of us.

  • papayapicker

    I read somewhere that probably exacerbated the problem we the fact that he had also posted to an official USMC site. If he had posted ONLY on his facebook and could prove it was “off-duty” (BTW you are considered to be on recall at all times and therefore “on duty”), he might have a better case.

  • aesthete

    is that he took down his FB page at the request of a superior officer, only to put it right back up again and contradict himself in a matter of weeks.

    I hope that Mr Stein does get an honorable discharge, and that his future employment will serve him well, but a discharge is both an appropriate and entirely predictable outcome of this sort of behavior.

  • gekster

    …///…

  • papayapicker

    to punish soldiers for doing something wrong. These run the gamut from an official letter or reprimand, to Article 15, and court martial. Even when it comes to a discharge, there are several options – honorable, general under honorable conditions, dishonorable. The first two leave the service member with benefits like their after-discharge dental care and GI Bill benefits. The last one pretty much takes away all your benefits and can have the same effects as a felony conviction where most employers are concerned. There are also “Chapter” proceedings that can lead to a dismissal. A dishonorable discharge IMHO was way over the top for a case of “disrespect to a senior officer”. Stating you will disobey an unlawful order is NOT grounds for dismissal. It is what you swore to do when you enlisted. All the same people who squawk that we were in Lybia and other places “illegally” would probably also fault the service member who refused deployment.

  • scook84

    Anarchy is here, whether we are fighting for it or not.

    The question is NOT what we say about it.. The question is what do we DO about it.

    Storm clouds are on the horizon. Businesses are being targeted, our leaders are systematically tearing down the rule of law. Individuals are being tried, judged, and “executed” by public opinion only. We haven’t had a budget for 3 years now. We are spending far, far, too much to sustain ourselves and we have destroyed the future of those not yet born.

    Yet, all we can muster, is rank disgust on an individual?

    What about Panetta’s doing away with military health care for retired members?

    I am really at a loss here. Do we just “talk” now? Will that make the “owiee” go away?

    Whether we care to admit it or not, we are being called upon to defend that which we believe.

    Where will we make our stand?

    ……………………………………………………………………………..

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • aesthete

    but I’m not entirely certain that Mr Stein does…

    IMO, an honorable discharge given the repeated warnings and ongoing issues would have been appropriate — I think I say that upthread somewhere. If it were coming completely out of the blue, a discharge would be strong, but it’s been an ongoing issue for some time, and I can see an honorable discharge being in the cards. Dishonorable seems excessive to me.

  • scook84

    END OF LINE.

    :-)

  • stephenf

    I am blown away by the attacks on this soldier by folks on this site who profess to be ardent supporters of the military and the people who wear the uniform. You all love to watch videos of Obama at military functions getting the cold reception he deserves. You relish the display of thinly veiled contempt for him by the military. Yet you pile on this fella here and heap scorn on him. I agree that he should be reprimanded in some way if he violated protocol but I suggest the vitriol be turned off.

  • streiff

    because I don’t know who “you all” is unless you’ve got a gerbil in your pocket and even if that were true how it would be hypocrisy.

  • streiff

    he’s apparently being given a “under other than honorable conditions” discharge.

    Actually, you don’t swear to disobey unlawful orders when you enlist. You swear to obey the orders of the President and your superior officers. Unlawful orders are covered under Code of Conduct. But you’re also told that all orders you receive are presumed to be lawful and how to address orders you believe to be illegal.

    I don’t know who,other than Ron Paul and his bootlicks, said we were in Libya illegally. Unwise is not the same as illegal.

  • garfieldjl

    Soldiers are supposed to stay out of politics for obvious reasons.

    I don’t know all the facts in the case, though since I haven’t followed this case I will reserve judgement.

    It could be he had the postings set to be private among only a handful of people, I really don’t know the facts so I’m reserving judgement until I know more about it.

  • wintermute

    “You can?t run into a burning building and yell ?FIRE!?… ”

    heh Wouldn’t this be what you are actually supposed to do?

  • https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Gary-Stein/161097993929079 Gary Stein

    I do not think that 15 tasteless words on facebook merit ruining a honorable 9 year career. We have offered more then 3 times to take down my personal page and I would step down as admin of AFTP and I would finish the 90 days on my contact and get out.

    Gary stein

  • Wubbies World

    Administrative Discharges:
    Honorable
    General
    Other Than Honorable

    The really bad ones only by Court Martial:
    Bad Conduct
    Dishonorable

    Strieff is right, at best this guy will get a General Discharge but it will probably be “other than honorable”

  • APA Guy

    I love it when trolls out themselves.

  • APA Guy

    nt

  • stephenf

    I read through your comments on this topic. They are mostly juvenile and condescending. I am not interested in a conversation with you.

  • streiff

    for those in need of them.

    So what you’re saying is that I should just ban you for making such a bullcrap comment and refusing an opportunity to elaborate? That’s not what I’d intended but if you’re okay with it I’m happy to oblige.

  • gekster

    If you won’t answer a question, then be quiet.

  • aeaeren

    be against the Constitution is not what I might determine it means. I served and there are a bunch of officers/NCOs who I thought were complete idiots and if a war were to break out at that time I wouldn’t want to serve under them. But I took an oath and it was my duty to uphold that oath so I would do my duty. If I have issues with the officers above me USE the procedures within the system to address the issue. You can not claim to follow the Constitution and disparage the CIC. It breaks down moral and breaks your oath. Bad leader’s camoflauge eventual fails and everyone sees them for what they truly are a failed leader and dangerous.

  • barleycorn

    While I think there has been adequate condemnation of Stein’s actions and I see nothing to be gained by picking over the carcass and making it bigger than it deserves, the fact is that conservatives have a long history of support for the military but not support for every malcontent IN the military.

    Wearing a uniform carries with it a heavy responsibility, and I do mean HEAVY. It isn’t for the faint of heart. It isn’t something one should ever enter into lightly.

    Mr. Stein messed up real bad and I can understand his dismay at losing his career, but untold others have served quietly and honorably and lost far more.

  • APA Guy

    I would also agree with an above comment/suggestion. You need to stop posting about this stuff until the situation has been resolved. Waging an unsuccessful PR war does nothing to help your case.

  • APA Guy

    Until that is the case, no one much cares what conversation you are interested in. You post, we reply. That’s how it works…deal with it.

  • scook84

    Violation of that oath?

    At what point does behavior violate the oath? If I cannot say Boo about my superiors, why can my superiors violate their oath AND contract to me?

    These are just questions. Things to ponder. Not saying you’re wrong. Just wondering how far down we need to go before the oath has any meaning to us other than someone’s comments.

    Thanks,

    ……………………………………………………………………………..

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • kaheo

    Did you follow the right channels to get the unlawful orders resolved. Was facebook your choice of medium for this?

    If you feel that the orders were unlawful, am sure they’d be plenty of people on your side especially those you served closely with.

    Please elaborate what was unlawful and why.

  • scook84

    No Paul, either.

    I plan on sitting this one out and only concentrate on House & Senate elections.

    Nice way to start a conversation, though.

    :-)

    ……………………………………………………………………….

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • streiff

    this list. I do. The question for you is how you go forward from here. Do you lay off asking these shallow questions over and over and offer something substantive or do you go away?

  • stephenf

    You arrogant self absorbed little man. You remind me of Charles Johnson at LGF. Worse your little power trip mirrors the mentality of Obama. Ban me for challenging you. You are what is wrong with the blogosphere. I’m sure you’ll also remove my comments as well and abuse my email address.

    You disgust me and i am disappointed EE has you on this site. I guess I shouldn’t be shocked considered this post was from EE and the title of the post proves my original point.

  • APA Guy

    “Sitting this one out” = a de facto vote for Obama; “Anarchy is here” = Occupy brat and/or Paulbot…you are fooling no one.

    You are as transparent as Reynolds Wrap.

  • aeaeren

    to hold your Representives accountable for their actions. The military is upholding it’s duty by policing itself. The government is NOT policing itself and we the people, and yes that includes the Drones who are NOT paying attention, are failing to clean out the bums.

  • Bill S

    WAAAAAAAAAHHH

  • APA Guy

    Narcissism is thy name…and crybaby to boot.

  • gekster

    because you won’t/can’t answer a question explaining your own remarks.

    Your comments won’t get deleted, we need a good laugh now and then.

  • Bill S

    I was just taunting him after the fact.

  • aeaeren

    to Serve under President Reagan.

  • scook84

    I remember when Carter was running the show and he made changes to Active Duty Retirement, GI Bill, and other areas. I believe it was one of his staff members said: (paraphrasing): If you don’t like it, you can vote with your feet.. Many did.

    Once I found out that a contract and a promise made when I enlisted, meant nothing to those I swore to defend, I left, too!

    …………………………………………………………………………………………….

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • aeaeren

    as you are learning when it comes to the UMCJ there are several different ways they can USE it to send you packing. You can’t win this fight period and bringing the public into this fight doesn’t help you one bit really. The best you can hope for at this time since your Chain of Command is against you is to try and get an Honorabe Discharge.

  • streiff

    nt

  • https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Gary-Stein/161097993929079 Gary Stein

    I never received any orders that were unlawful. I never said I did receive unlawful orders. I said that I would not follow unlawful orders if given to me. In fact I was never order not to post on AFTP or do interviews…

  • anjinconsulting

    YOU have an oath to follow. When you become an officer, your oath changes only slightly (in terms of the oath sworn by enlisted and commissioned officer).

    The CIC on the other hand is overseen by the Congress, the duly elected representatives of the people, and is judged if need be by the Senate; again the duly elected represenatives of the people.

    As a member of the miliatry, you are NEVER in a position to judge your superiors, or to countermnand their orders.

  • APA Guy

    Good taunt, though…classic, in fact :)

  • scook84

    Just accepting that no matter what we do, we get stuck with the same old RINO/Moderate and it will not stop the slide into oblivion.

    I accept that by not voting for MITT or PAUL I am making a statement. NO MORE.

    Neither of these candidates really mean much to me. Romney’s not a conservative, Paul is somewhere I do not choose to be.

    I was going to sit out McCain as well in 2008. Then Palin came along. What they did to that woman and her family, along with the “support” shown O’Donnell and Angle convinced me that I do not know these people. I do not WANT to know these people.

    For the past 20 years it has always been thus:

    1. We get 1 RINO anointed by the party.
    2. We get 3 or 4 conservatives running against the 1 RINO
    3. The vote is split. RINO wins with less than 50% Eventually the conservatives drop out.
    4. We are then told to get behind the RINO
    5. RINO denounces conservatism
    6. RINO loses election
    7. RINO Blames others for his loss.
    8. Conservatism loses again though it hasn’t been advocated in 20 years.
    9. We wind up the doll for the next run.

    I am just tired of the BS. Give me someone I can get behind because of what they aspire to. Not because he’s not “The Other Guy”.

    Thanks.

    …………………………………………………………………………………..

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • anjinconsulting

    determination on as to whether or not the order was unlawful? Furthermore, what article under the UCMJ or even based on Marine Corps tradition would you use to justify your actions? The simple fact is that you are a Marine, and your oath is to follow the lawful orders of the officers appointed over you as may be given from time to time.

    I have as much disdain for Captain Zero as you do, but the operative difference is that I am no longer a Marine on active or even reserve duty, whereas you were an active duty Marine when you disparaged your CIC.

    As an enlisted serviceman you behaved in a less than honorable manner, and more importantly, in a manner unbefitting a Marine. Your juvenile attempts to rationalize your behavior are only making it worse.

  • scook84

    The Manchurian Candidate?

    :-)

  • scook84

    It was a very interesting thread.. Everyone had their say in regard to a military member crossing the line. Good points all..

    Didn’t hear too much about what to do when an elected official violates the oath of office. Can’t vote them out if the only choices given are more of the same.

    More and more, we are being governed by a “one party” state.

    And all we got to show for it is this shiny, little used “Oath of Office” that everyone knows but no one takes to heart.

    :-)

    It’s been real

    ……………………………………………………………………………….

    NO MITT. NO HOW. NO WAY.

  • Raven

    It’s not up to us to decide who is an enemy or what is unconstitutional. The day the military starts making those decisions is the day this Grand Experiment comes to a permanent end.

  • naraht

    IMO, Libya ceased to be a significant issue in Congress when McCain said Obama wasn’t doing *enough*. The sides in Congress on what to do in Libya were wonky…

  • scook84

    How I long for the day when the citizens of this fair land hold elected leaders to the same standards they hold an enlisted member of the Armed Forces.

    Hey…

    It could happen…

    :-)

  • jakeofalltrades

    The cat’s out of the bag now. He’s gone and confessed every element of everything they’re going to charge him with, and his publicity attempts just aggravate it all.

  • jakeofalltrades

    basically showing no remorse, and even a sense of pride and justice, in the individual mutiny he has carried out, the military should have nothing to do with him. He should serve up to a year (in jail) and then be out of the Corps. He does not belong in our elite special forces.

  • jakeofalltrades

    You never challenged anyone. You lack the skills. You were invited to formulate an actual challenge that we could argue against, but instead you made such a vacuous, incoherent statement that no one knew what you even meant.

    That’s why you got ridicule. This site has quality control, which is the only reason I have been reading this site for 6 years. I’m glad you’re gone.

  • oldmom2

    I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

    I’ve perused a few websites discussing this issue and was surprised (a bit) at how much divide there is about Gary Stein.

    This entire thread was a good read.

  • Vegas_Rick

    You’re a disgrace to the NCO Corp and to the Marine Corp. As a career Combat Engineer in the Army, I was a Squad and Platoon Sergeant during the Carter administration. No one despised an incompetent Commander and Chief as much as I did President Carter. And I let my friends and family know how I felt at every opportunity. But as an NCO, I understood that the military is rightly controlled by our elected civilian leaders, including the President. I knew when I raised my right hand to swear my oath upon enlistment that I would temporarily surrender some of my rights as a citizen while I was a soldier. As an NCO I also understood the example I was expected to set for my troops. That example could never include publicly ridiculing my leadership. President Obama is a disgrace, both as a President and as Commander in Chief. And, if a majority of voters agree with me next November, we’ll get a change in leadership. That’s how our system works.

    You chose to put your personal beliefs and opinions above your duty to the Marine Corp, your subordinates and the American people.

    You deserve what you get.

  • kstone

    “As a member of the military, you are NEVER in a position to judge your superiors, or to countermand their orders.”

    No service member can be required to follow an unjust order, and they would, in fact, be held criminally and civilly liable if they did so. (e.g., if you follow your platoon leader’s orders to slaughter civilians without cause, everyone involved will be held liable.)

    Absolute statements always raise a red flag with me. That being said, I can’t dispute the rest of your post.

  • Green_Lantern

    “Be respectful, or be banned.”

  • runner12

    I am only half-serious. So many athletes, coaches, and other media figures have found themselves in trouble based off of what they posted on social media and now it is a US soldier.

    I would be interested to know what specific Military Code violation the soldier broke. Facebook is such a new form of technology. I have heard from several above that it is not considered honorable to do what the soldier did, which makes sense. But perhaps the reason why some Conservatives are supporting Mr. Reid is because they are applying the our civilian First Amendment principles. Most people, including myself, have no knowledge of the US Military Code.

  • kaheo

    Why did you say you’d disobey orders if they were unlawful? Did you have some inside scoop to some upcoming unlawful orders.

    I mean, why were you so vocal about hypothetical future unlawful orders!

  • Green_Lantern

    That was a close one.

  • buffalochips

    I believe that he and all the other military personnel have a right to SAY whatever about our elected officials. As long as they obey all legal orders as they are required to do. Bad thing is ,in the case of our current pResident, they are ALL illegal. He is, after all, NOT a NANTURAL BORN citizen of the U.S.

  • davesinsanantonio

    Actually, an oath means nothing if it has to be enforced. An oath is a promise to behave in a certain way, Oaths are taken voluntarily. So, if you take an oath that someone else has to enforce, then you have no integrity. When you take an oath you are saying you voluntarily will always behave in a certain way. If you don’t intend to act that way you should never take the oath. Enforcement means you never meant to keep the oath, and so you are nothing but a liar. There is no honor in taking an oath someone else has to enforce.

  • davesinsanantonio

    You say we are going to get the “same old” and “slide into oblivion” and then you say “NO MORE”, and yet you intend to sit out this election so that we get the “same old” Obummer who not only wants us to “slide into oblivion”, but actually is trying his hardest to speed off the cliff into oblivion. And, then you have the gall to say “NO MORE” when you will sit out the election so that we are guaranteed to have “MORE”???!!!!!!
    When Obummer finally succeeds in destroying this country, it will be YOUR fault, and that of every other ego driven idiot who claims to be conservative but will sit out the election rather than getting off his or her fat butt to vote against the destruction of the nation. What a hypocrite!!!! Enjoy the socialist dictatorship you are going to create for the rest of us and our children.

  • JX12

    If you’re not careful.

  • deafy

    Is the commander in chief up and above the Constitution?
    Is military up and above the Constitution, to decide for themselves what a legal commander in chief is?
    Obama is illegal as per the Constitution, and as such, has no rights whatsoever. Others who can do something about this are traitors and are committing treason.
    Now the military will go as far as start to shoot patriots who wants to honor and uphold the Constitution when that illegal usurper decides to?

    That is sick!

  • Bill S

    Send an email to the contact link. If you don’t care to do that, then keep your comments to yourself.

  • radicalrighty

    I am so sick of those, “take my ball and go home,” single issue folks balking at voting, for their idiotic, “principal.”

    I don’t care what Romney has to do, or say to win the White House, as long as he beats that US-hating bastard currently there.

  • moonmad

    Check the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The there is a chapter that addresses showing contempt toward superiors. I believe it mentions civilian authorities not only the president but congress and other executive dept. types. Also the Hatch act applies. You cannot use your position in the government for electioneering purposes. So the SGT is being a dumb Marine. You can express your opinions but in the military and civil service you are circumscribed. Simply put as soldiers we have to respect the rank even if we don’t respect the person.

  • moonmad

    Help us out here. You probably know the chapter off the top of your head.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    nt

  • celador2

    Your questions are broad and hypothetical in regards to this Stein case.

    Sgt Sten is not in combat much less Afghanistan. He never disobeyd an order from CIC chain of command nor was one issued to him. Stein thought unlawful hypothetical situations and posted he would not obey certain NATO commands.

    Stein is a Marine weatherman in California who did engage in a public discussion I think in unifrm from ‘ Tea Party Armed Services’ about would Stein obey orders to arrest the military who burned Koran if NATO issued those orders.

    Those last rounds of posts about hypothetical situations sparked the hearing that led to his becoming the center of a First case. Sgt Stein was insubordinate and encourged mutiny imo. His posts were centered from a blog named Tea Party Armed Services. That is a uniformed opinion site.

    Sgt Stein previously posted his constitutional objection to Obamacare whiich was not a military order but an Act sufficiently broad so as not to single out the president were it known as ACA only. Marines warned him not to engage in disrespectful acts of speech while in uniform. His posters were demeaning and mocking of Obama.
    Did the actions violate an exisitng military code or regulation?
    Did Stein disobey an order from chain of command?

    Sgt Stein badmouthed but also disagreed on constitutional grounds with Pres Obama over domestic policy. Secondly, he said if NATO ordered him to arrest the guys who burned the Koran in Afghanistan he would not. WIthin this context Stein made his fatal comments on not obeying any unlawful order were one issued.

    imo Sgt Stein does not deserve dismissal from Marines and loss of benefits. As it stands he can not reenlist. His case merits a loss of rank and a warning clarification what he can say in uniform.

    I hope he is allowed to reenlisit and that he keeps his mouth shut on poliitcs while in uniform.

  • snappy101

    How many of us wouldn’t be fired if we did the same thing publicly with our own top boss? It wasn’t just wrong, it was dumb.

  • funwithknives

    in another dimension or similar, but to repeat : ” Either You are The Solution or You are The Problem…”
    Don’t overcomplicate this or try weasel wording.This Is the time and place. Falling back is not *attacking from another direction*. ‘Making your statement’ might get you some SMUG but assists nothing and no one.

    Imagine you are reduced to just an ON and OFF switch. { like computers use, in expanded form, Zeros and Ones}

    Well, stop imagining, ’cause those two choices are Your Reality.

    Barry is OFF, and out go the lights. Our candidate is ON,warts and all. We pick up the pieces, get it in gear, let’em know we aren’t EVER going away, and then join EE, ‘on the bridge’. Long-Haul time.

    The Fight for Lliberty is Never Over,’scook84′. That you would even consider walking away? Then keep movin’, son. Sunshine Patriots are never welcome anywhere near me .
    {and I suspect (just a teense), a few others as well}

    W E L L ??????

  • celador2

    Gary, I posted a summary of events higher up in the thread.as I read about them in media. These actions which were comments led to the Sgt Stein dismissal hearing. It looks to me that your posts from ‘Tea party Armed Services’ placed you in uniform despite a disclaimer.
    However,

    The context in which your First Amend case got national attention was a hypothetical situation. You posted online from that blog that were you issued an order to arrest the guys who burned the Korans in Afghanistan you would not obey an unlawful order.None was ever issued.

    You were never issued an order to arrest anyone nor were you in Afghanistan. Your remarks were not in chain of command in real time. But beause of ‘Tea party Armed Srvices’ some thought your public views could encourage insubordination in general. I thought such remarks could encourage mutiny. But since the comments were not in real time combat but hypothetical I can see your point in wanting to express them as Gary Stein.

    Comments on domestic heath care , Obamacare were based on constitutional grounds and not in military chain of command. Saying the Obamacare mandate overeached commerce clause is no act of insubordination, imo. Still , combined with a few posters it adds up to a general disrespect for the person of the president from a site with Armed Services in the blog name.

    You mean well overall, I can see that, and have served the US for many years. God be with you!

    .

  • michaellaborde

    We must hold to all direct orders given by the Commander In Chief, but I must say being a Vietnam Vet., I will not follow an unlawful order weather it be from a non-com or brass or CIC. Their is a distinction.
    No one looses his freedom of speech when enlisting, demeaning the unlawfulness of a CIC outside of the military is fine, but in ranks, is not lawful.
    This president does not show me that he cares for freedom, the rule of law and by far has shown himself as above us “peons”. I cannot support such a man that has demeaned the Office Of The President as he has done.
    He has shredded The Constitution Of The United States and has a revisionist recollection of History. He also believes that by re-interpretation that he can do anything he pleases and uphold only laws that fits his beliefs.

  • michaellaborde

    Well, it will be either Obama or Mitt. A non-vote is a vote for Obama.

  • michaellaborde

    Yea, why not just forget the Constitution or better yet make up or own.
    Well, then you can take a free course online on what the constitution really says.

  • ihateliberals

    Strin wouldn’t make these comments to his commanding officer and what he seems to have forgotten is the Obama is his commander in chief like it or not. Obama is still in his chain of command.

  • duncer

    Many seem not to know the s details of this case before commenting on it. those that think the corps will fall apart if he is not kicked out of the service might want to consider that if obama is reelected that 100,000 men might arrange an early out program by doing the same thing and that the only way to replace them would be the draft. Carter set a precedent when he granted all the draft dodgers amnesty, a republican could just as easily overturn all the discharges. Be careful what you wish for and remember every law is not presumed constitutional, this could well be appealed and found in violation of the first amendment.

  • arthurjake

    When your active duty military the uniform might come off but your a Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine 24/7. If he wants to post as Gary Stein that is ok. If he wants to do it as Sgt Gary Stein then he is breaking the rules.

    With the time left on his contract he could have kept posting as just Gary Stein until his time was over. He could have posted under a nickname and still let it be known he is active duty military. Instead he chose to be a useful idiot and hang himself. To me that doesn’t make him better than a reproductive rights activist on the left crying poor me.

  • http://www.victorluebker.com thearmedforcesteaparty

    Does the Congressman know that many times over your page has called him a traitor? He does now! You called his card for sympathy yet like with so many things you mis-led him by not disclosing your page has called him a Traitor…people like sie Alan Williams and many others you associate with via facebook on your page continue to do your secret bidding!