Zimmerman, Romney, Obama, and the KKK on the Atlanta School Board #EERS

xymbaline

when he’s only halfway to the goal?

Do you think that because your team got to the 50 yard line that they’ve won the game?

Weird reasoning, particularly since Newt is alive and kicking again.

conservativerock5

bounced.

Newt is alive and crippled.

http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

nt

ennaneko

He’s running third party and trying to get on some Americans Elect ballot.

He’s the former governor of Louisiana. The man appears to have a populist message.

conservativerock5

Good man, but not a good platform. Not a conservative.

Better than Romney though. But I will be forced to vote for Mitt.

jakeofalltrades

He will now plead the special version of self defense that exists under Florida law, which he will have to prove to a preponderance of the evidence (i.e., given the evidence, the odds are better than 50.00% that he was attacked by Trayvon). Since all the witnesses and physical evidence tend to prove he was attacked, this should not be difficult.

If I were him, I might even consider a bench trial.

Scope

The special prosecutor charged Zimmerman with second degree murder. I’ve heard all of the talking head lawyers today saying that she left open the door for the jury to decide on lesser charges, but put the highest charge on the menu. Because the prosecutor choose a charge which means that Zimmerman had intent to kill, even though not on a pre-mediated basis, doesn’t that mean that the prosecutors have a much harder case to prove that he intended to kill? Doesn’t that make the prosecutors case harder to prove.

I guess what I am getting at is that the Casey Anthony case was considered to be “overcharged” which meant that the state had a much higher burden in proving their case. Does the prosecutor now have to prove a case that will be harder to prove? From what I understand, the case will involve getting into Zimmerman’s brain, and proving that he was set out to murder Martin that night?

jakeofalltrades

to a substantial certainty that grievous bodily harm will result from your act. Shooting people tends to do that.

Second degree murder is the best fit. Manslaughter is a reckless killing, which doesn’t fit here.

Scope

Is that where just a judge decides his innocense or guilt?

jakeofalltrades

From what I understand, the case will involve getting into Zimmerman?s brain, and proving that he was set out to murder Martin that night?

That would be first-degree murder. They aren’t claiming he premeditated… honestly, the more the prosecution gets into his intent, the more it might play into proving his affirmative defense.

Scope

If someone is beating my head into the sidewalk, if that can be proven, and I am in fear of being killed or made into a brainless vegetable, by that last blow with my head to the ground, do I have no ability to stop that action?

jakeofalltrades

It’s where you waive your right to a jury trial. Since it is likely, given the self-defense claim, that Trayvon’s parent(s) will take the stand – crying – I would tend to trust a judge more for this reason:

Judges have a better understanding of preponderance of the evidence and the weight that must be given to witness testimony. I think Zimmerman stands a better chance with a bench trial rather than whatever God-awful jury would end up being selected.

gekster

I would think he would ask for a change of venue.
I can’t see how he could get a fair trial in Samford.

jimmyg

What turned my radar on was the fact that Zimmerman’s attorneys fired him. He gave an interview to Sean Hannity. If he talked to Hannity, I can only imagine what he told the police. On the other hand he may not have told the police anything.

Before we start drawing conclusions as to guilt or innocence, we likely should wait and see what cards the prosecution are holding.

jakeofalltrades

then you can use lethal force in every jurisdiction in the United States – even the “must flee” places. Repeated smashing of someone’s head into the ground is an imminent threat of death.

You would also be allowed – in most jurisdictions – to kill someone who was doing that to someone else.

jakeofalltrades

before trial, when they’d have to get permission and he might be even more out-of-control.

Scope

If you are being paid to appear on TV news broadcasts, shouldn’t you at least have a full set of teeth in your mouth?

Scope

with his former lawyers holding a press conference, and talking about his emotional state. I think you are in the minority here. Most consider his former lawyers to have gone completely against lawyer client privilege.

Interesting that you are once again on both sides of the issue. Seems to be your forte. Sad. You have a position, or you don’t. You can’t have it both ways Jake, even here on RS.

jakeofalltrades

Now’s your chance. State the issue on which I have two opinions. I predict I am actually speaking of two or more separate issues, and you are conflating them.

jakeofalltrades

Correction: conflating them again.

jimmyg

Zimmerman’s former lawyers handled it badly by holding a press conference, the subject of which was firing their client, and the reasons they were doing so. A letter to their client would have had the same effect.

I also agree with Jake that they were smart to get out. They just should not have said why they were getting out. Of course if they were not going to tell the world why they were firing their client, why hold a press conference.

This case is made for television. You have everything present which will bring in ratings. What makes it so is that anyone who has been following has an opinion as to guilt or innocence of Zimmerman., and the cast of bloviators, who all have an opinion on the case, not necessarily based on the law, but based on their point of view.

In any case no one, other than the prosecutor and her staff, has been able to view all the evidence, not just the evidence that has been on television or speculated about on the internet.

earlgrey

Triscuit, Breakstone, Mac&Cheese, Chips Ahoy, Capri Sun, Oreo, Kool Aid, Planters, Wheat Thins

Above are all brands that I will be avoiding since Kraft foods has chosen to submit to an admitted Communist leader and his Color of Change group and withdraw support for ALEC

Watch me change away from your brands. It won’t be easy, but I can’t imagine feeding my children your products knowing that you support such a divisive figureat such a challenging time in our country.

I have two kids, and I’ll be raising them to know why we don’t eat the Mac&Cheese in the little blue box anymore.

I could have put more thought and time in it, but frankly they aren’t worth it.

earlgrey

I feed my kids your happy meals about once or twice a week. I also go to a McDonalds near my work on Jackson Avenue in XXXXXX. THis is a poor neighborhood with some crime and also some industry. McDonalds is the only close fast food place. Your staff there is fabulous. It is a scary neighborhood, but they give me the best service I have had at any of your locations.

Unfortunately, McDonald’s decision to stop supporting ALEC will have me stop supporting McDonalds. I am uncomfortable with companies I support submitting to the will of people like Van Jones that are divisive figures drumming up protests right and left (actually mostly left).

Please give the staff at this Jackson Avenue a big thank you for doing an excellent job in a place that frankly, I don’t like being at (I work near there). They are great.

I’d love to know if McDonald’s changes their mind on this positions, but sadly, I don’t think you will, and neither will I.

garfieldjl

Considering this prosecutor hasn’t run this through a Grand Jury.

How the media has already turned this into a circus, politicians particularly the President getting involved.

I really don’t see there being a fair trial.

Scope

“He will now plead the special version of self defense that exists under Florida law, which he will have to prove to a preponderance of the evidence (i.e., given the evidence, the odds are better than 50.00% that he was attacked by Trayvon). Since all the witnesses and physical evidence tend to prove he was attacked, this should not be difficult.

If I were him, I might even consider a bench trial.”

Then you come down later and say that his lawyers were right to dump him, as he was “out of control.” What proof do you have that he was “out of control”? Did you talk to him? Do you have any evidence that Zimmerman was “out of control” at all other than his now apparently fired attorney’s are saying? Do you have any proof of anything you are saying? No, you don’t. You have been all but ready to convict Zimmerman in your mind, and then you have been ready to say that Zimmerman can’t be proven guilty.

You have seemed to be on two sides of issues more than just here.. It just seems to depend on who you are talking to. I’ve pointed that out about you before. I guess that may be a part of why so many just don’t trust lawyers.

Tbone

This case is a public lynching. Watch the announcement. This scumbag woman starts off by referencing the parents of the juvenile delinquent.

The woman is totally unprofessional and totally biased and Zimmerman is being lynched because that is what the mob wants. The Republican Governor who appointed is a scumbag too.

Before you post in response, watch the video of the announcement and then tell me I am wrong.

Scope

I watched the original announcement when she first came on. If I am not mistaken, only after her long intro about how the law is decided, she couldn’t hold back her glee in giving the Martin parents what they wanted. Shouldn’t there be some seriousness to making the announcement today by the SP, in honoring the rule of law, rather than all but giving a shout out to the parents.

There has been a bounty out on GZ’s head. She never did the first thing to quell the calls to violence. She never showed the first respect to the fact that Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. I can’t believe the calls that this has been a political move by the SP, and her apparent glee for finding for “justice for Trayvon.” She had no reason to use the same language as the race baiters have used. She showed her hand right there.

westcoastpatriette

and the bias was obvious to me. She only mentioned justice for Trayvon as if Zimmerman deserved none. The implication that Trayvon was an innocent victim and Zimmerman was a perpetrator — and therefore not entitled to the same justice, was implied. At least that is what I read into her comments. The chance that Zimmerman was the one attacked and therefore the true victim, was never broached. She was absolutely pandering to the Trayvon supporters. Too bad. I hope she loses the case and gets sued by the Zimmerman family if it is proven that Zimmerman was acting in self-defense.

jakeofalltrades

when they continued to proclaim their belief in their client’s innocence.

jakeofalltrades

She saw the crying family and is oxytocin-raging with chemically-induced motherly instinct for some medical reason or another.

jakeofalltrades

a man is most likely going to be found innocent, doesn’t mean it’s in the best interests of his lawyers to represent him.

I’m trying to figure out what intoxicant has you so addled as to think those two are the same thing.

You have to control your client so he doesn’t go on television and screw up the case. It’s bad for you if he does. He might even say something stupid and completely false that’ll threaten your career.

He talked to Hannity and his lawyers weren’t informed. You do understand, right, that that’s a bad thing?

Like last time. You couldn’t see a difference between the issues of:

whether a jury would be good at figuring out what happened and solving the controversy

whether it is right/constitutional to arrest Zimmerman given the facts

I thought yeah to the former and nay to the latter. You thought I was fence straddling. This intoxication has been going on for a week now – what gives?

Tbone

for being a dishonest, pandering, media whore.

CincoSolas_del_Bronx

I no longer recognize the site I once loved.

aesthete

Just Tbone — and he’s always been like that.

aesthete

that would try this case fairly, given the rampant disinformation about this case.

If I were Zimmerman, I’d seriously consider a bench trial.

rabun1016

It’s more like 63 to 14 starting the fourth quarter. I’m betting on the team with 63.

Tbone

It must he hard to repress your true liberal self.

rabun1016

She clearly was enjoying the limelight of the press conference too much for my liking. Most good prosecutors I have known are more like Joe Friday, not Oprah Winfrey.

aesthete

as it is for you to spell a one-liner correctly, apparently.

garfieldjl

Why was the evidence, assuming there is any, not presented to a Grand Jury?

I think this prosecution is about scoring political points, not justice.

rabun1016

She said “we work for the victim” or something like that. Actually, she works for the county and all people of that area. It’s their interest in justice she represents, not the interest of “the victim”, her words, not mine.

rabun1016

The prosecutor can file the charges without a grand jury if the evidence is strong.

Tbone

Then tell me the she is not a dishonest, pandering, media whore.

Don’t want to watch it or defend it do you?

Nope, just wring your hands deplore your fate of having to associate with such as I and revel in your selfrighteousness.

northeastred

is one juror out of 12 to believe that it was reasonable that he felt threatened by Trayvon. Granted, Zimmerman is a mall cop wannabe who never should have pursued Trayvon Martin and allowed himself to be attacked. Most undercover cops will tell you Zimmerman was a knucklehead. But I’d take my chance on that one juror of my peers, rather than a judge who might be inclined to believe that this former spouse-abusing, police-assaulting piece of garbage is lying, but ttat he’s mart enough to know a Stand Your Ground defense.

northeastred

Zimmerman told police that Trayvon saw his gun? Could Trayvon have been standing his ground with his fists, when he saw an armed, threatening looking Hispanic male approach without identifying himself?

Zimmerman strikes me as dumb enough and hotheaded enough to have said more than he should have. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s already dug his own grave.

aesthete

That’s right — they were all prosecutors at some point in their careers.

Most prosecutors are terrible people — grandstanding ambulance chasers who think it’s their calling to create and manage circuses for the masses under the flimsy pretext of ensuring “justice”. The SP has been dreaming for this moment all her life. I just wonder how many other prosecutors she had to run past to get to this media gold mine.

Dave_A

ntxt

Dave_A

I’d say something like that about defense attorneys…

The prosecutor works in the best interest of the people most of the time (putting bad people in prison for as long as possible)…

While there are some gross abuses of power (Duke) most of the time, they’re doing something laudable: ensuring the guilty (your every-day non-media-circus-generating criminals) get punished….

CincoSolas_del_Bronx

So you’re simply wrong on that count.

You’re also mistaken if you think that my criticism of your comment lay in your choice of adjectives for the SP. It did not, and had to do with the weightier matter of wishing an early death on her.

As to your charge of selfrighteousness, you hit, sadly, full in the mark; my only hope, in this life and the next, rests in certain promises that an alien righteousness is imputed to such a wretched sinner as I.

aesthete

“(putting bad people in prison for as long as possible)” to exclude the word, “bad”. Not to broad brush, but in my encounters with prosecutors I haven’t found many who care too much about whether the people they’re putting in prison are bad or guilty. The professional ethics of lawyers working in corporate and environmental law (the areas I have most experience with and knowledge of) are particularly awful. The media witch-hunts against various rather innocuous behaviors, or entirely ginned-up crimes which were never committed (the child abuse cases during the 80s, for instance), in addition to the constant pushing of the envelope on the part of prosecutors to stretch laws to where they were never meant to go, doesn’t inspire confidence.

At any rate, once you get up to the point where you’re a viable choice for AG (and only prosecutors ever run for AG; wouldn’t do to have a defense lawyer like John Adams running for AG) or a high-profile prosecution case, you’ve almost always extinguished what little humanity and decency you have in exchange for ambition, ruthlessness, and amorality. There are some exceptions, but I’ve found this to generally be the case (YMMV).

Tbone

just vermin.

macbookben

…the defense won’t have much work to do to convince one juror of reasonable doubt. It’ll be a mistrial, in my humble opinion.

Besides, it’s Florida for cryin’ out loud. Hanging chads, Casey Anthony, etc…

JSobieski

nt

CincoSolas_del_Bronx

who does not take opposition to that fact lightly.

A few days ago you were properly rejoicing to “celebrate that the Lord is risen” and encouraging your readers to “celebrate that he intercedes for us with our Father”. Now you have publicly expressed a desire for the early death–with no root in justice, just warfare or self-defence–of one of your fellow citizens. Have you forgotten this warning: “the tongue … is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.”

Do we all stumble, and therefore need to continually take each others’ weakness into account? Yes and yes. But there are also lines, the crossing of which, if not internally challenged, can implicate an entire community. Mock if you must, but I would rather our opponents and persuadable independents–their persuasion being, last I checked, one of the objectives of the site–not be given cause to label us murderers.

gekster

…..

westcoastpatriette

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-mom-sybrina-fulton-zimmerman-shooting-accident-122512394.html

tnguy

….yet is thrilled the guy was charged with murder? I realize that it’s hard to hold someone who has recently lost a child accountable for their words, but on the face, that’s a vile position for her to take.

Tbone

It doesn’t play in my world. Go judge yourself.

streiff

knock it off

mikeymike143

that woman is a piece of garbage. biased and unprofessional.

Common_Cents

We should be all spreading the word to sound as stupid as the Dems saying there is a war on women.

rightlane1111

No…I don’t need replies…like that is his name. The press has “personalized” this person as if he were my friend. I don’t know Zimmerman…I don’t know Martin.

This is one of these little subliminal deals wherein, without our even realizing it…Martin is referred to as some friend of ours. Why not just depersonalize the entire thing and call them Martin and Zimmerman? Do we call Zimmerman…George. Good question..

northeastred

to say, but seeing Zimmerman at his indictment? He looked like a violent thug who is capable of violence. He’s going to have to clean himself up for the trial because he comes off as scary and threatening.

Jack_Savage

And I am sure you are sharing with your Frito munching basement dwelling friends how no one here has caught on to your little schtick. The simple fact is that you don’t matter, and your cutesy comments are middle school snark at best.

If you are the best that the left has to offer, the bench is pretty thin indeed.

zachv

Even if we’ve pretty much established we all agree. His lawyers have been absolutely media hounds and have turned this into a complete circus. For Zimmerman, it might have been a good thing they dropped out if this “announcement” is characteristic of their style.

Ned Reck

Was it me… or did I detect a lil’ bit of “granstandin’” by Miss Beautimous… Angela Corey?

At any time durin’ the press conference… {wink-nod}… did anybody else feel that all her thanks for the “little-people”, get in the way of the salient facts?

A young man’s life has disappeared… and another is about to.

As Joe Friday would say… “Nothing but the facts, Ma’am. Nothing but the facts”.

May the Almighty bless the “truth”… and I truly hope it emerges from this hype.

Our nation has become a Circus-Circus-type…

Ned

Scope

The race baiters, boycott promising, bounty hunters, were marginalized. Zimmerman was overcharged for a reason. There are no reasons to burn Sanford Fla down now, are there? George Zimmerman has probably gotten the best sleep he has had in more than 40 days. So far I am very impressed with Zimmerman’s new lawyer Mark O’Mara.

This is all going to be OK. I promise.

Tbone

led by Eric Holder and Barack Obama is being pandered to by an absolute scumbag of a media whore prosecutor appointed by a complete idiot of a Republican governor.

This is the Duke rape case 2.0.

northeastred

Do you agree, disagree, or simply enjoy cracking wise about snack foods whenever possible? I happen to believe Mr. Zimmerman will walk out of court a free man once his trial is over. But I am also being honest when I say that now that I’ve seen him clearly, he comes across as threatening, with his close cropped hair and swarthy looks. Perhaps you are one of the PC police who don’t agree with profiling. I take a more realistic view. Sorry if that offends you.

Jack_Savage

And your time here will soon come to an end. You won’t be able to help yourself.

And the jackass / snack food / lefty part, too.

northeastred

I should know better than to try and match wits with a man who, as a quick google search reveals, chooses a gay porn star as his nom de plume. (And you have access to his diary!) I’ll be sure to leave the word “ass” out of any future replies, since I’m fairly new to these boards and I might be falling for one of your erotic parlor games. Good luck to you.

Dave_A

So far, there isn’t enough evidence available to the public to support either for the race-pimps’ position (poor kid shot by evil gun-waving man), or yours (shooter is an innocent victim defending himself)….

We’ll see, when the trial happens, who’s right…

Jack_Savage

…but I am sure your friends in the basement did. I hope for your sake that they know to hide the porn from Mom – under the front seat in your Pacer will probably work.

Vegas has the over / under on you at six days. I have the under. Good luck to you as well.

powertothepeople

Whether he went to far or not, this so called trial is nothing more than appeasement of a group of actual racist. Nothing more, nothing less. And Zimmerman is the scapegoat.

northeastred

But getting emotional without knowing all the facts is a fool’s game. Prosecutors prosecute. Or offer pleas. Or drop charges. That’s the system.

I wouldn’t bet any money on Zimmerman not to screw himself. He’s had problems with police before, and he’s a bit of a hot head. Who knows what he’s already said?

This case deserves to go to trial. He’s a guy with a violent past and he shot a guy. Let the jury sort it out.

northeastred

roaming around these boards with a gay porn name before you can’t live with yourself anymore. Maybe you have an icon to add?

powertothepeople

And what is it that you folks do not get about the fact that we do not put people on trial just to appease a group of people, we do not put them on trial to figure out if they are innocent, and we do not put people on trial just because we can and justify it with the whole “they will win it anyways, so it does not matter.”

Guilty of excessive force or not, Zimmerman is being used as a scapegoat and is being reamed without the aid of lube. All this is nothing more than white appeasement of a few racist blacks.

gekster

I think he saw what he “wanted” to see.

aesthete

The whole point of a trial is to ascertain guilt or innocence.

That said, unless there is other evidence which has not yet been revealed (and there very well may be), I don’t see there being nearly enough evidence to convict Zimmerman for any degree of murder — maybe manslaughter, but even that would be a huge, huge stretch.

If Zimmerman is innocent of malign intent (and the evidence presented so far weights heavily towards that direction), he’s had his life absolutely ruined by the race pimps for no reason at all. If I were him, I’d move out of the US, and to some country where he can live in peace.

gekster

You are the first one to bring that point up.
Sounds like you’re kinda jealous.

Jack_Savage

When they project, it really is transparent.

But it does sound more like he has *already* seen it rather than wants to…

Dave_A

with the presumption, on the part of the system as a whole, that they are not….

Zimmerman is on trial because there is probable cause that he may be guilty of using excessive/unjustifiable force against Martin (if the charge was that he set out to kill a black kid – as the race-pimps claim, it would be 1st Degree).

He very well may be found not guilty. Or guilty.

The picture will become clearer, when the evidence (witnesses for both sides (and IIRC, there *are* witnesses for both sides), forensics, medical examiner’s report, etc) is presented in court…

In a case like this, where each side apparently has evidence supporting their position, and apparently there is no clear evidence as to which side’s info is more believable… A trial is the proper venue to sort this sort of thing out.

powertothepeople

there is a certain level of guilt based on evidence that must be met prior to any arrest. We do not put people on trial to figure out if they are innocent, we put people on trial to prove them guilty.

A person is innocent until proven guilty. This notion and the rules pertaining to standards of evidence is there for a reason. That is why when a lady is raped in an apartment building they do not start trying people and once found innocent assume they can now omit them from the suspect lineup due to the courts findings.

This whole trial is nothing more than appeasement from the white community to the racist Sharptons and Black Panthers. Nothing more, nothing less.

northeastred

He’s a guy who was arrested for beating his girlfriend and arrested for assaulting a police officer. For 44 days he was a free man. That’s the kind of guy the Democrats are usually whining about getting a raw deal by the man. Are you sure you want to go down this route with Zimmerman? Come on. I think he’s smart enough to know how to construct a Stand Your Ground story to police. I’m not saying he’s lying, just that his story ought to be tested in court.

powertothepeople

You know the same things we do and we know that multiple police agencies deemed it a good shoot, we know that witness reports confirm it, we know that Zimmerman’s injuries were consistent with what he stated happened, we know that even if he was aggressive once he was down on the ground being beaten in the face he is able to use deadly force, and we know that the big piece of so called evidence that the racist used to scream for an arrest was doctored.

So please inform me of the evidence you know of that is enough under his constitutional rights to justify not only his arrest, but such a strong charge. Seems to me the evidence is not only not there, but as more of the so called evidence gets shown to be doctored, he is proven more innocent and should not have been charged.

northeastred

It gets better.

aesthete

and no reputable witnesses.

Sounds like probable cause to me.

Again, based on what I’ve heard Zimmerman getting charged would be surprising… but a trial is an appropriate venue for determining this.

Jack_Savage

Whatever coded message that was.

northeastred

because that’s what you believe from media accounts. It’s a bad way to get to the truth.

JSobieski

In a sane environment, the prosecutor would not prosecute but the end result is a trial is really a formality based on the evidence.

I don’t practice criminal law, but the fact that the charge is 2nd degree murder instead of some type of manslaughter (manslaughter is an appropriate result in a context of a flawed self-defense argument) makes the “showiness” of the trial even more blatant.

I do believe that trials are an appropriate mechanism to preserve public order and a sense of justice. However, this case is quite weird and weird cases do tend to cause damage to the justice system.

northeastred

Or “bone up” as they say on your set.

http://www.itgetsbetter.org/

powertothepeople

Or is it simply a repressed sexual feeling you have coming to light?

A simple google search showed the name Jack Savage as being quite famous for?

Baseball pitcher of some esteem

A TV show character

A fitness teacher

Writer

A fighter in WW2 who wrote the Jack Savage papers

A Navy pharmacist who was recognized for his bravery

Soccer player

Actor

managing partner of a company

Martial Artist

A Vietnam paratrooper and door gunner

A conservationist in New Hampshire

And so on

Even got to Jack’s own postings here listed on Google and to page 10, yet not one thing about a porn actor> Had to actually type in porn Jack Savage before I got a thing about him.

One must wonder why you knew about him, why you seem to have so much issue with gay people, and why you skipped over the many famous “Jack Savages” to bring up the one few know, that is of course but you.

Come to the light, the closet door is open North. We will accept you here no matter who you sleep with.

That or get counseling.

JSobieski

(1) Man used gun to take the life of another person
(2) Ambiguity (remarkably little hard evidence either way) in terms of exactly what happened.

Reasonable doubt has characterized as a roughly 95% certainty standard (better for 10 guilty people to go free than convict one innocent person).

Preponderance of the evidence is a 51% certainty standard,

“Probable Cause” is something in the neighborhood of 25% certainty.

http://www.georgiacourts.org/courts/accountability/2008conf_files/Effective%20Research%20and%20Evaluation%20Strategies%20The%20Verdict%20is%20In.pdf

Jack_Savage

Interesting how you are so in tune to the gay porn subculture. And this is way past creepy, so I will bid you good evening while I go sanitize myself.

Excellent way to win an internet debate, though. Make the other guy dry heave until he has to leave in order to save his keyboard. Congrats.

Tbone

and put on trial for your life. That would be justice.

Tbone

Watch the prosecutors video and tell me she is not grandstanding. Otherwise, shut up.

JSobieski

Prosecutors are not supposed to bring cases that are basically a waste of judicial resources.

But for the publicity in this case, there would not be a trial in this case.

Given the publicity, some type of manslaughter/excessive force type charge could be appropriate, but 2nd degree murder is absolutely nuts.

Bill S

Or your time here will be short.

Jack_Savage

And a good example to me. And I will try to remember to be as kind the next time I am here.

powertothepeople

I would agree if you simply changed your tune to ” they need to have evidence prior to an arrest and a trial is not about proving one innocent,” but when you say 2 men fight, one dead, no reputable witnesses is probable cause, you are again wrong.

Case in point. Husband and wife live together. Wife calls 911 and states husband beat her, she felt in fear of her life, husband was shot and killed. No witnesses, simply a body and the story the wife gives.

Cops on scene have gut feeling wife is lying and her “injuries” and self caused. 99.9% of the time no arrest will be made and an investigation will start. They can know all day long she is lying and guilty, but until they have real evidence she is, no arrest should or will be made. She does not have to go to trial to prove herself innocent, the prosecutor and the police must, and I repeat must, compile enough evidence to meet constitutional guidelines prior to making an arrest.

Considering there is no more evidence today than there was the day of the shooting and some of the so called evidence has been show to be wrong or doctored (edited), no way they are filing these charges based on probable cause or strong evidence, hence Zimmerman has had his constitutional rights violated. This is pure appeasement towards the racist Sharpton, Black Panthers, and other similar ilk, and is wrong, blatantly wrong. The level of the charge *seriousness* is evidence enough this whole thing is bogus and unconstitutional. I am not saying he is right or wrong in the shooting, simply stating he is innocent until proven guilty, he has rights. and there is no way anyone without a bias could presume enough probable cause to support a charge much less murder.

We do not or at least should not file charges against anyone of any color or creed based on community sentiment.

Same applies here in this case. Zimmerman was not charged based on evidence or probable cause, he was charged to quite the segment of the black community that has threatened the peace of all until he was charged.

northeastred

like a liberal public defender with a long pony tail, railing about Ken Starr abusing his power.

Jeez. What’s happening here? It’s bizzaroworld. Since when do Republicans stand up for thugs? Not me. Zimmerman is going to embarrass you before long. Don’t let it happen.

powertothepeople

with your gay slurs, I have no interest in being advised by a moron such as yourself.

powertothepeople

aren’t you? I clearly stated I am not claiming guilt or innocence when it comes to Zimmerman, I could care less about either of the parties. I also could care less what he has been arrested for since it has NO bearing on the current case. I also could care less who the dems want to use as their poster child. I only care about the obvious fact that there is not enough evidence to justify a trial especially one for murder, I care about our rights not to be arrested on hunches, and I really care that the only reason Zimmerman was arrested was to appease a group of racist blacks who always seem to be in the news screaming racism where none exists and offering 10,000 dollar rewards for Zimmerman.

Now in case you missed my other reply to your nonsense, I have no respect for a guy like you who is obviously a low IQ Moron who bashes a long time poster with gay slurs.

powertothepeople

things in order to try to make a point.

The arrests you mentioned were in 2005, with neither ending up being convictions on his record. One was never filed and both parties were told to stay away from each other and the other went through pretrial. Not too mention he was never charged or arrested for beating his girlfriend, it was simply petitions filed by both with the GF claiming he pushed her then her dog bit him. Judge never ordered an arrest, simply ordered them to stay away from each other for a year.

Should not lie, should not lie. You will always be shown to be a liar as you just were,

aesthete

probable cause is more like a 25% certainty type thing.

If the state were prosecuting on behalf of someone vis a vis your murdered spouse example, it’d be more analogous to this situation — you have to have a plaintiff before you can have a criminal trial in common law courts, IIRC. (That can sometimes be the state, but often isn’t for obvious reasons.) You’d have probable cause in both the Zimmerman case and your example, but not necessarily someone who wants a prosecution.

I agree that this is a politically motivated trial, but that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t have been a trial (or presentation before a grand jury) before the media got ahold of the story.

Tbone

before some other invertebrate co-opts your rock of origin.

Or, I just piss on your leg.

Tbone

That’s a very constrained response.

JSobieski

I think 2nd degree murder charges here are absolutely nuts and unfounded. Some type of manslaughter charge would obviously be closer to being something that could be shown in court.

Excessive force is not a question of the quantity of force, but rather a question of whether the force was appropriate.

powertothepeople

it was necessary.

A person can state as fact all day long that Zimmerman went too far with the whole follow and confront thing, it does not matter.

One could even say that Zimmerman started the fight.

It still does not matter.

Once the kid had Zimmerman down on the ground and was hitting him, he took it too far and was causing Zimmerman to fear for his life. At that point, Zimmerman was justified in taking his life.

I just do not get why so many here do not grasp that simply fact. There is nothing in any report that would justify Martin striking Zimmerman. But even if you want to claim Martin was justified in striking Zimmerman because Zimmerman was following him, challenging him, and being aggressive, his justification stopped once he had Zimmerman prone on the ground. In no state for no reason can a person justify the striking of a downed opponent which could lead to serious bodily injury or death. The only way a person could justify that type of attack would be if the person had a weapon and was using that weapon to threaten them. This is not the case in this matter. The gun was not pulled until multiple strikes were used.

There is no excessive force, period. I would safely guess that there is not one person here who owns and carries a gun who would not pull the trigger if a younger and bigger thug was sitting on our chest pounding us in the face regardless of what led up to the altercation.

JSobieski

than 1 reasonable way to interpret the facts.

Look, I am against indicting the guy on anything—-but your statements presume quite a bit.

Nobody has a complete story to this case except for the one of the two people who survived.

Everything else is eyewitness testimony in the dark that didn’t include the entire altercation, some phone calls, and a bullet wound.

What makes this case as explosive as it is is the lack of evidence.

JSobieski

There is remarkably little evidence on this point, which is why I don’t support bringing charges.

I don’t see how a trial could possibly show 2nd degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt. I find it hard to believe it show more than aggrevated assult or unlawful discharge of a firearm, much less manslaughter.

However, you are lying to yourself if you don’t think there are factual inferences that could made against a claim of self-defense. Its just that those inferences would have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt—which I think is impossible in this case.

sulmak

I’m not sure if that is what you meant by this:

“One could even say that Zimmerman started the fight.”

But if Zimmermann threw the first blow, or showed/said that he was going to, he was committing assault and had no right to self defense, at all.

I don’t believe that was the case, I simply think all Zimmerman intended to do was follow him at a distance.

JSobieski

Self defense is very much contextual in criminal law, and as a result, it comes down factual assessments.

I don’t think the prosecution has a prayer of making a case based on the evidence that I am aware of. However, the idea that deadly force is automatically warranted even if the deceased starting wailing on him is an inaccurate statement of the law.

The law never presumes deadly force is ok. Deadly force has to be viewed as reasonably necessary.

For example, there are martial artists who have essentially been penalized in self defense cases due to their fighting skills.

sulmak

“A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

emphasis mine

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

General self defense arguments are not the only thing valid here. Specific Florida statute, which also allows for deadly force in other circumstances, is also relevant.

JSobieski

For self defense…which is what I said

northeastred

Good luck defending the likes of the cop-assaulting Zimmerman. You’re staking out new ground for the GOP. Very bold.

Tbone

the idiot Republican governor who selected that unethical,media whore. When Dershowitz says an attorney is unethical, it can’t get much worse.

Tbone

may have been about to pull a knife. In any case, shooting him was a very efficient method for Zimmerman to end the assault he was suffering.

Now, he is suffering a liberal, racist lynching perpetrated by an unethical prosecutor.

JSobieski

Any case based on self-defense is going to involve investigate the precise sequence of actions/omissions that transformed into a battle to the death, and the reasonability of Zimmerman’s assessment.

I do however agree with most of the people here in concluding that based on the evidence that we have heard about, there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that a jury could properly find Zimmerman guilty of 2nd degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

Tbone

A Darwin winner.

JSobieski

and of course, being dumb is not a justification for being railroaded with a needless trial (Zimmerman) nor an open season license for being shot (Martin).

I always want to see justice done, and in this case, I do think that trying Zimmerman for second degree murder is itself an injustice.

That being said, I see a lot of people mischaracterizing precisely what the requirements for a successful self defense argument are. Self defense is never that specific—”reasonable belief” is an inherently contextual standard.

If people get the false sense that self defense with a firearm is justified by someone looking at them in a threatening way or even throwing a punch, the goal of a just and orderly society will not be advanced.

As an adult male under the age of 45 who is over 6 feet tall and weighs more than 240 pounds, I know that it will take more danger/provocation to justify the use of deadly force than it would be for a 85 grandmother who stands 5’0 and weighs about 100 pounds.

What I find interesting about the Zimmerman/Martin case is the initial seconds between where Martin noticed Zimmerman and the use of force. From what I have seen, the evidence relating to that period of time is basically a null set. What little eyewitness testimony there is (at night in the dark) pertains to when the altercation already started.

Nothing I have seen relates to precisely how it started.

Dave_A

Well, without going through all 19+ responses individually:

To the guy who said ‘we don’t put people on trial to see if they’re innocent’, you’re sort of correct: We put them on trial to see if they are guilty, when there is a chance they might be.

My original statement is ‘the trial will show WHO is innocent here’ – as the central question is which of the 2 parties is the ‘innocent victim’ as in which one was lawfully defending himself, vs which one was the criminal assailant.

Now, leaving all of the name-calling & other bull aside….

What *I* am doing in regards to this case, is treating all possible situations as equally plausible UNTIL evidence shows me otherwise.

That means accepting all evidence from both sides (prosecution & defense – I don’t give the race-pimps credit for a ‘side’) as valid, until shown that some pieces are more reliable than others.

RIGHT NOW there are witnesses that say Zim was defending himself…

There are witnesses that say Martin was defending himself…

Both Martin & Zim have prior criminal records.

This leaves 4 *logically probable* situations:

Option 1) Zimmerman’s story – he was assaulted unprovoked, held down & beaten in such a manner that shooting was required to save his life. Zimmerman justified

Option 2) Zimmerman laid hands on Martin first, making him the aggressor, and Martin the one engaging in self defense, however Martin used excessive force & prevented Zimmerman from disengaging (as required by self-defense law as-applied to initial perpetrators). Zimmerman justified.

Option 3) Zimmerman laid hands on Martin first, making him the aggressor, and Martin the one engaging in self defense. Zimmerman was losing the fight, so rather than attempt to retreat (as required to re-gain right of self-defense, because in this scenario Zim started it) he pulled a gun & fired. NOT JUSTIFIED.

Option 3) Zimmerman threatened Martin with deadly force and/or attempted to detain him (eg, threatened with his gun) prior to being placed in danger, thus Martin was justified in defending himself with deadly force, but failed. NOT JUSTIFIED

NOTE that I do NOT list ‘Zimmerman just wanted to shoot a black kid’ as a probable scenario – there is NO evidence to support that.

Since in 2 of 4 possible scenarios, Zimmerman is guilty of a crime – and since there is evidence to render all 4 equally probable – he absolutely should be CHARGED.

However, I am not presuming him GUILTY because I don’t have enough evidence to make that decision – that is why we need a TRIAL.

Now, the police or the DA could have more evidence that changes the math on which of the 4 is more probable. But we’ll see that when the trial comes around.

As of now there are contradictory witness statements, a call for help that hasn’t been identified as being Zim’s or Martin’s… And so on… Not much evidence for either side (and this is why you do not put yourself in the situation Zim did, should you ever be in the position of an armed citizen witnessing suspicious behavior) – but that is what it is….

westcoastpatriette

It’s too bad the case has been so politicized. In that regard, it decreases the public’s ability to trust the process as the case has reached a point where everyone’s motives are being questioned. Let’s just hope that one of the four scenarios you laid out will be proven without doubt so that justice will prevail. My fear is that the evidence will remain cloudy and unprovable (such as who was the one screaming for help) and no matter the outcome, a cloud of suspicion regarding the truth will remain.

Dave_A

This could very well be OJ-MkII, depending on how bad the evidence is, and how much the police pooched the case (if media reports are right, and evidence collection/reporting/etc were neglected)….

Personally, I’m hoping that there is conclusive evidence one way or another, so that we can get this over with & have a firm resolution.

We’ll see, because you know the 24/7 media will cover every second of that trial….

RS

EDITOR OF REDSTATE

Zimmerman, Romney, Obama, and the KKK on the Atlanta School Board #EERS

COMMENTS

ALL

COMMENTS

POPULAR

#RSRH

PICK YOUR STATE & GET LOCAL