Where Is The Balance?

By: Erick Erickson (Diary) | May 11th, 2012 at 04:46 AM |

RESIZE: AAA

In the past week, I’ve been called a bigot, a hater, had people wish I died, and had people wish Christians had died, been rounded up and killed, or experienced their own personal holocaust.

All this came from proponents of gay marriage. The media won’t cover most of this. The media sees most stories as victims versus victimizers and those who support gay marriage are the victims. They get the positive media coverage.

In reality, though, throughout this week I’ve seen a number of Christians engaged in as much hate filled rhetoric as gay marriage proponents, including the pastor in North Carolina who encouraged parents to beat up their gay acting sons.

As a Christian, I cannot support gay marriage, nor can I accept practicing homosexuality as anything but a sin. At the same time, there are a lot of Christians out there who seem convinced they aren’t sinners. In fact, we are all sinners and as I have matured in my faith, I have a harder and harder time understanding how so many Christians can be so tolerant of so much sin, but treat homosexuality as some sin set apart from all other sins making it a worse sin than, for example, adultery.

This is a political blog and I try to leave my theological ramblings for special occasions, but I think this needs to be said.Christianity is a religion premised on God’s love. We are to hate sin, but we are to love sinners. For non-Christians, that may make them rage about Christian hypocrisy, but it should not. I have gay friends. They all know where I stand on this issue. But they also know that I know that I too am a sinner. For me to love myself and hate them would just be sin on top of sin. We all, like sheep, have gone astray and I am no better than they are nor they better than me.

Hearing a pastor encourage parents to commit violence on their sons because they may be gay is offensive to me. Hearing Christians refer to gays with slurs is offensive. At the same time, hearing gay rights proponents wish Christians would die is equally offensive. Hearing gay rights proponents derisively call a Christian a bigot for standing on principle is offensive.

What many people tend to forget is that Christianity is not a religion premised on some of us getting to heaven and others not. Christianity is actually a religion premised on not one single person getting to Heaven. All of us are on the express train to hell. All of us.

I no more belong in Heaven than the Pope or Billy Graham and they no more belong in Heaven than me. None of us belong there.

We get there by God’s own grace given through our saving faith in Christ. Believing in Christ gets us a “get out of jail free” card, but that card does not mean we don’t belong in jail.

Those of us who are going to Heaven view ourselves as passing through this place. But we have an obligation to fight for what we believe in and to stand up for our values. We know not just that society, over several thousand years, worked out that marriage between a man and woman is the best organization for society and we should not change that just because some people think it would make them happy or be fair.

We also, as Christians, know that marriage is an institution set up by God where man and woman become one being designed to glorify God. That’s why we can’t support changing marriage’s definition.

But as I defend marriage as it exists, and recognize that many opponents on this issue will see anything Christians say and do as examples of bigotry and hate, we Christians should reflect our values with love of our fellow sinners, not condoning violence.

Liberals view the Golden Rule as they do the Commerce Clause — a theological blank slip to justify any action they want as the commerce clause is a constitutional blank slip to do whatever they want legally.

Evangelical Christians should remember the Golden Rule and treat others with the love and respect we wish to be shown. But we should also know the limits of application for the Golden Rule and remember that sometimes loving others means saying no.

The balance in an increasingly secular world is difficult for Christians to maintain. As the world comes down on our values, it is easy to react back with hostility. But as I noted on twitter the other day, for all the people calling me a bigot and saying I am out of step with the advance of history, my response is that I am not concerned about being on the right side of history. I am concerned about whose side I am on, on the last day of history.

There will be a last day. And though I may lose in this lifetime, on the last day Christ wins and I through him.

There are real rights and real wrongs and we should not be so eager to accommodate this world as to be silent on right and wrong. But we should not be so eager to show our separation from this world by pouring out contempt for others who, like ourselves, have fallen short of the glory of God.

The balance is not easy, but let’s try not to go wobbly.

Tags: gay marriage

COMMENTS

POSTING RULES | LOGIN TO COMMENT | REGISTER TODAY

texasref

No buts or howevers. Just respect.

Thank you for the privilege of reading your soul-searching diary entry, and for the privilege of being able to comment on it and all the other diary entries you host on your website.

If Chuck Colson’s Prison Fellowship can minister to baby rapers and murderers in the prisons, how much more, then, should we consider, as you said, “how so many Christians can be so tolerant of so much sin, but treat homosexuality as some sin set apart from all other sins making it a worse sin than, for example, adultery.”

For non-Christians and/or gays (or in my case, a gay former Christian), it would behoove us to consider that the Golden Rule transcends religion and is worth following in good faith–not as a “blank slip to justify any action” we want.
dvdmsr

nt
Matthew Morris

Some of the best yet.

“I am concerned about whose side I am on, on the last day of history.” -well said.

If those who have said the hateful things to you read this piece, their hearts will be moved no doubt- even if they do not themselves realize it. Even if it does not come to fruition immediately. Dialog like this is what sets things in motion.
thomasmitchel

Excellent points, Mr. Erickson. You are right that the practice of homosexual activities are no greater a sin than, say, serial monogomy by heterosexual people, or any other sins. There is, however, a difference at this particular moment. We typically do not see adulterors, alcoholics, pornogrophers, the violent, thieves (white or blue collar) etc. not only demanding acceptence by persons or institutions of faith, but asserting that those who believe and stand on what God says in the Scripture should be condemned for our beliefs. Those who press the gay agenda are not only asserting that the lifestyle is not sin, but that the real sin is even believing that lifestyle is wrong. They seek to invert the moral order in a way that no other group is seeking to do at this moment in history. Some may have heard the phrase “sin with a high hand” to describe particularly egregious sin. What we are witnessing now is sin on the march with both fists raised. And that does make it worse — for society as well as the individuals affected.
Matthew Morris

…the way you describe yourself. I would love to know more of your account of your experiences.

Excellent point bringing up the work of Chuck Colson. I was fortunate enough to see him in October. Who knew he would be gone so soon. Nobody can be subject to that sort of grace and come away hating.
davesinsanantonio

go ye into all the world and beat the crap out of any who don’t believe what you tell them?
And, didn’t He say by this shall all men know ye are my disciples, if you beat the crap out of them?
Aren’t we to leave the ninety and nine and go out into the desert and beat the crap out of the one who strayed?
And, didn’t the Parable of the Prodigal Son have the father beat the crap out of his wayward boy when he finally came home?

Great article! But, there are some hateful bigots within the Christian community. They don’t follow the teachings of our Savior, but claim their version is more important. Here’s hoping your article will open their eyes and their hearts. If not, I hope my sarcastic comments might. Keep up the good work, and the good works. Some will listen and some will repent and try more to follow what Jesus taught, and not what the world preaches.
avgjo

nt
avgjo

but using the language of the left like ‘hateful’ and ‘bigot’ usually won’t. I’m neither, and I can tell you, seeing those terms is almost always a non-starter for me. You might try persuading those folks in Biblical terms. Find some scriptures to back up what you’re arguing and move on from there.
circlegranch

for a ‘morning call’ that benefits every person with passion coming from one side or the other on this issue. As Christians, we do see the secular world gaining on us in every facet of life. Our children are indoctrinated on every turn, church attendance is down and few young families have time for it. We’re under attack, we see it every day and it seems fewer are willing to stand up for our values. It’s discouraging. Its easy to lose our way and fall prey to the same tactics and rhetoric of those with which we disagree. I think alot of it is due to having an extreme leftist president. Lying and marital infidelity became cool during the Clinton years. When leadership is weak and a complete moral failure, when the media and the entertainment industry embraces immorality and demented behavior as being perfectly normal and justified, we find ourselves in this miserable predicament.
spinoneone

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Robert Frost

Bigotry is not confined by race, creed, culture, sex, or any other attribute of mankind. Christian bigots are just as common as non-Christian bigots. The Bible, Tanakh [Torah plus Old Testament], and Koran can each be used to promote just about anything one wishes. Those who do not believe in God will remain unconvinced and those who do believe will, likely, remain angry.

We do not live in the Puritan Age. No one has a right to decide how two consenting adults should conduct their sex lives in their own home. What rights they should have in public and/or before the law may be subject to further discussion.
beach91

and Christians should realize that these are people too. I am always reminded of the passage of scripture where a lady is brought out to be stoned because she was caught in the act of adultery (John 8:1-11). The pharisees were accusing this woman and prodding Jesus on what to do by the Law. But Jesus was busy writing on the ground as though he did not hear them. Then He said these words after more prodding, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone.” and then began writing on the ground some more. He then looked up after a time and all the accusers had left. He said to the woman “..where are your accusers, has no one condemned you?” she said no one and Jesus said neither do I, but go and sin no more. Christians should learn about this and also maybe a little of what is said in 2 Chron 7:14. Condemnation gets us nowhere. Nothing can replace love.
avgjo

the homosexuals are the ones who brought their bedroom behavior to the public forum..

the radicals among them (is that a minority or a majority?) don’t want salutary neglect. They don’t want tolerance. They want affirmation. All for their lifestyle, which is purely based on sex.

If they would do like most people and keep their proclivities and behavior to themselves, they’d get a lot more sympathy. I would not be surprised to see, with the increased ‘in-your-face’ tactics of the radical homosexuals, increased intolerance of homosexuality as a ‘legit’ lifestyle. And contrary to what a handful of polls from questionable sources say, real voting results with real people (not ruling class self-styled elites) have been real bad for the SSM movement.
circlegranch

It’s interesting that Mr. Obama would ‘come out’ in favor of gay marriage knowing that homosexuality is so entirely offensive to Muslims. He takes great pains to avoid being offensive to the people of that faith, sometimes it seems at the expense of Christian beliefs. This time, however, it appears he needed that Hollywood campaign war chest money alot worse than he needed to tread lightly and practice his usual sensitivity and tolerance of the teachings of both Muslims and Christians.
guidvce

children who have been spoiled by their parents and expect the rest of humanity to follow that lack of training of how to be a thoughtful being.
The screaming, name-calling, etc. by any group of people is counter productive and points out that they are afraid of being seen for what they are, irresponsible and foolish.
If the gay lifestyle is what they want to follow, that is between them and God, not for me to judge. I can only offer up a prayer that they are truly “gay”(happy) and will not regret their choice of lifestyle. As long as they treat me with respect, I shall do the same.
avgjo

with trying to be all things to all people.

At some point, realities clash.

Although I’ve noticed he’s far more sensitive to the concerns of Muslims than Christians. They get lots of lip service from him. We get referred to as ‘bitter clingers’.
radicalrabbi

As an ordained pastor, although I prefer shepherd, I am obligated to speak the truth of God’s Word without compromise. This does not mean that I beat people over the head with it; quite the contrary, it is always presented in love.
I know the burden of having a homosexual in the family, the rejection, the hurt, the emotional pain of a loved one who is rejected for being gay.
I also understand sin, because I too, like everyone else, has fallen short of the glory of God. In fact, I fall short every day. This does not stop me from presenting to others those things that are displeasing to God; in another words sin.
Just because I will not marry a gay couple makes me neither homophobic nor a racist. It makes me true to the Word. There is no getting around the fact that God saw sexual sins as being especially grievous to Him. I know that all sin is sin, God does not grade on a curve, but both through the Law of Moses and the writings of Paul the Apostle, we find Him calling the act of homosexuality an “abomination.”
I hate no one based on their sexual (flesh) preferences just as II do not hate anyone because of the color of their skin. The one thing I do hate is deviancy in any of its many forms. Deviancy, I will speak out against, I will call it what it is, sin; nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else. But I will do so in the love of Messiah.
vandalii

… homosexuality as a sin it is no different than any other, all deserve death. Yet sin that is celebrated, or as thomasmitchel points out, “high-handed sin” is not negotiable to God and, once upon a time, was not negotiable in the USA.

A wise Pastor, Dr. Oerter from my youth once said, “We dare not condone that which God seeks to redeem.” It just confuses the sinner.

We have a similar situation with abortion — we have created laws to protect lawless behavior. This confuses people, especially those with no values originating outside themselves. They view the law and moral right/wrong as the same thing. Laws were intended to discourage or prosecute the sociopath/psychopath that is unable/unwilling to abide civilly within the community. We were always to have a higher standard than mere law; law was to be the catch-net for those that refuse to respect others’ lives, property etc.

Now we create laws that protect not only the sinner, but the sinner celebrating his/her perpetuation of sin. We’ve got it all wrong and young people today are very confused by laws that seem to say it’s okay (or even right) to do what was unimaginable even 50 years ago in our society.

Lord Jesus come quickly!
vandalii

… His own people. Whether it was the Abraham passing off his wife as his sister (twice), Jacob hornswoggling his brother out of his birthright, stealing his blessing, Israelites pining for the meat pots in Egypt during the Exodus, the Pharisees/Sadduces getting it all wrong or today, Westboro Baptist Church and similar ilk.

How God can stand any of us, I don’t comprehend, just grateful that Christ was willing to die and rise that we might live in newness of life.
vandalii

Homosexual behavior begins with homosexual feelings, attraction to your own sex. So the real problem is being ruled by feelings rather than an objective standard outside our fickle fancies. This is the situation today — relativisim is nothing more than an I want it my own way, and however I feel is how I want it.
Viet71

I’ve got a bible somewhere; this whole debate has prompted me to read it, in earnest.

Presumably, the bible tells us what sin is. But I suspect it’s suble and full of allegory. I know from practicing law that there’s only one ultimate authority on the law — the U.S. Supreme Court, made up of nine Justices.

Can’t say I’d trust any one person to tell me what sin is, in a comprehensive way. Guess I’d want a wise council of about nine diverse individuals.
funwithknives

being referred to as ‘your enemies’, back in 10/2010. [Latin rally]

I just felt so gol-darn special…..
jdbird

exactly my position on the issue. Thanks. Seeing the vitriol on both sides of this issue makes me sad. I tend to fall on the side of not worrying about what the state thinks marriage is and instead concentrating on “hearts and minds” of the individual.
funwithknives

but Erick gets this point across and is making me think.

It is one of the primary reasons I come here. Thanks to ya’, E E .
nhbuckeye

Great article Eric.
nhbuckeye

Thank you for writing it vandalii.
Bill S

And there are plenty of books out there that can help you tell allegory from literal truth.
http://conservativemormonmom.blogspot.com ew88

Amen! I have also thought this needs to be said. Tolerance is a two-way street. If we want tolerance for our unpolitically correct positions against gay marriage, we need to show tolerance and love everywhere we can and give the liberals less ground to stand on when they accuse the religious right of discrimination.
www.conservativemormonmom.blogspot.com
westcoastpatriette

but, at this point, I am seeing this cultural war a little differently. Like all of the other tactics the left uses, they have no intention of “playing fair” and use our beliefs and guiding principles against us — which leaves us at a huge disadvantage if we remain silent lambs.

They could not care less about integrity but are always ready to throw scripture in our faces about the love of God and how we should not resist them in any way. Give ‘em an inch, they take a mile. So, we have no choice but to fight back as they are the aggressors and have no intention of backing down. Things have progressed way past any sincere differences of opinion — and to me, the homosexual agenda is designed to finish America off as embracing their agenda will be the nail in the coffin for us — and that is just what they want.
Jack_Savage

Before you begin to read the Bible, I would recommend a sermon that really helped me understand and gain perspective. The transcript is here:

http://www.mppc.org/sites/default/files/transcripts/111009_jortberg_1_0.pdf

It is from John Ortberg’s series “True North”. This sermon is called “The Bible”. On the Menlo Park Presbyterian Church website you can actually watch him preach it.

Even after decades of reading and studying, this sermon helped me a great deal. Note that I said reading and studying, as far as putting it into practice goes I am still an infant.
Viet71

n/t
azaeroprof

If I were to have sat down and written my feelings on the subject of gay marriage and homosexuality, I couldn’t have written it better than you did here. I am in 100% agreement with you. Just wish the media would report on the millions of us who feel this way and not the ones who express hostility and single out homosexuality as some kind of special sin.
adampm

Totally agree. What happens between consenting adults is not my business and as I’ve found out I’m usually MUCH happier not knowing. What Fred and Jim, Harry and Sally, or Kelly and Sandy do or don’t do doesn’t impact me at all.

I believe it should be the choice of a church whether or not it performs a marriage between people of the same sex and that the government has no business telling a church who it can and can’t marry.
funwithknives

Keep the talking points to a minimum.
Barry shows us the futility of running your mouth, over and over and over…..

KISS this one and let’s change the topic.
BHO’s gotta go, don’t-cha know…….
renl57

Erick,
what you wrote was terrific. It touched my heart, and it made me think.

I hope that your wish comes true, and we can try to have serious discussions in this country about moral issues without judging our countrymen harshly just because their moral code (from their own faiths and philosophies) may be somewhat different.

And in that connection, let me say that your diary and the comments here make me glad to be here on RedState.

There are plenty of other places on the Internet for the true haters.

I’m glad RedState is not one of those places.
funwithknives

each and every time the pull The Biblical Card. ‘wcp’, you, of all of us know your stuff and can do this with 1/2 of your brain turned off.

No problem with fighting back, but use The Source Material as E E suggests,{ or your no-doubt variation would do, as well}
Not sucking up, just confident in your abilities.

Take the hit ,and remember: You’ve got Someone on your side, they’ll never have.

So, that makes 3 of us……….
avgjo

when I use the term ‘sex’, I am using it in a synthetic sense – all the feelings and behaviors directly associated with the actual event. Otherwise, totally agree.
tnguy

I wanted to say the same thing, but could not have said it as well as you did.
tnguy

WCP. I believe if we eventually lose on this issue, the country is finished.
BlueLandRed

>the homosexuals are the ones who brought their
>bedroom behavior to the public forum..

And, as of late, they’ve been very successful. If you look at the demographics by age … in the 60+ category , 80% are against it. In the under 30 crowd, 80% are for it. That sort of generational gradient means it’s only a matter for time before this issue is wrapped up in favor of the gays.

I don’t have a dog in this fight… it’s a non-issue for me. But it will start to seriously hurt the GOP in the long run. As the generations cycle through, unless there is some change of heart as they age, in 20 years, 80% will be for gay marriage. I realize that might upset some of you, but it’s now just math.
lineholder

Do you mind if I share something with you about this? One of my sons, who just turned 30 last year, decided who would do the same. He called me, saying, “Mama, most of it just makes no sense to me…I can’t understand what it really means”. Here’s what I told him:

1. There are 4 parts to being human, physical (body), mental (mind), emotional (feelings and desires) and spiritual (pertaining to the spirit and soul of a person).
2. According the Bible, the fourth element of being human mentioned above is eternal, meaning that it does not die. The body dies. The mind ceases to think. The feelings cease to exist. But the spirit and soul are eternal.
3. When reading the Bible, a lot of it pertains to that fourth element of being human.

Then I told him that if could keep that much in mind when he’s reading the Bible, it’s likely to make more sense.

Since then, he’s come to understand that part of it. And to have a better understanding about the character of God Himself, and why even though sin is sin is sin, simply condoning sin and accepting it as a way of life isn’t necessarily what God would ask it of us try to do, for the sake of our own souls and for the sake of souls of those around us as well.

I don’t know if that will help any, but I thought I’d share it with you all the same.
Derek E. Hopper

Your understanding of the gospel demonstrates your “growth”.

Only sincere believers can trace an ever changing trajectory in their lives from the love of and things of this world to the love of and things of Christs’ kingdom. His kingdom, a realm every bit as real in our time and space, yet unperceived by any of our natural senses making it impossible to comprehend because it is spiritually discerned.

It is this Love, that enables sincere believers to see that all sin is sin. It is this Love, that enables sincere believers to see all sin as an offense to our maker. It is this Love, a true love for God that causes one to deny themselves, take up His cross, and follow Him. The sincere believer is being changed over a lifetime and some of those stages along the way are about as pretty as a caterpillar in a cocoon!
thephoenix13

I certainly respect your beliefs, but I wonder – and have wondered this on many occasions surrounding this and other debates – do these beliefs also require you to pursue legislation to further them?

Wouldn’t it be better – and really more American – for gay marriage to be legalized, and then those who believe it to be sinful can still try and educate people as they please?

Trying to use the government to do this accomplishes nothing but steadily increasing animosity from the people not allowed to marry towards those keeping it from them (generally certain Christian groups).
texasref

–I don’t mind straight people as long as they keep their proclivities and behavior to themselves. They want the right to marry (and divorce at a 50% rate), and as we all know, the lifestyle of those marriage-loving heterosexuals is purely based on sex.

/sarcasm
texasref

That adjective places marriage squarely where it belongs: in the religious arena. The government had better start treating all marriages equally, including the ones performed at the gay church down the street.
texasref

How much more then should we all check ourselves before winding up.
http://www.erickerickson.org Erick Erickson

do these beliefs also require you to pursue legislation to further them?

No, we should not have to pursue legislation to further them. In fact, we’re merely trying to preserve a status quo of a society framework built on those beliefs.

It’s liberals who keep trying to blow the door off the barn and let everything in and out.
texasref

when you say, “Just because I will not marry a gay couple makes me neither homophobic nor a racist.” You have the right to follow your religion as you see fit.

If, for example, you worked at a government agency or at a grocery store and you chose to refuse service to someone because you perceived them as homosexual, then I would consider you homophobic. But no one should expect you to ordain a gay pastor or marry a gay couple if that conflicts with your religious beliefs.
texasref

So let me understand you correctly…if the government were to start treating gay couples like it treats straight couples in taxation and other secular policies,

THE COUNTRY IS DOOMED.

ok…got that.
lineholder

All of us are sinners, myself included. I’ve got my share of past sinful actions that I’ve had to try to overcome. I’ve got my share of present sinful behaviors that I struggle with on a day to day basis. And, no doubt, I’ll be struggling with more of the same until the day I die. Temptations exist for all human beings. It’s how we respond to them that makes the difference in the long run.

And there are things I’ve learned the hard way, like being cautious and guarded (especially where my own soul is concerned) about how much I allow the mentality and mindset of the society in which I live (a society of sinful people just like I am, but some of them don’t recognize temptations for what truly are or make any efforts to resist them) to influence my own actions day by day. As God said, “Be ye not deceived, for God is not mocked; whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap”.

I wish I knew of a better way to explain it other Americans who may not hold to Biblical truths why those of us who Christians tend to draw hard lines on things to the extent that we do. It serves a positive purpose in our lives to have moral absolutes and hard lines drawn that keep us to the side of what good, right, honest, etc. It also allows us to abide by the laws of this nation because of a desire to do what is right.

But Christians are simply human like all other all human beings. We’re not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And if and when our efforts to try to hold to those lines is undermined, we can be corrupted by things that end up influencing us a in negative way. Like malice. Or vengeance. Or a desire for retribution that could lead us to take matters into our own hands in a way that might violent. And the Christian you mentioned, who was encouraging an attitude of violence…I’d say that person is facing some of those things right now.

Sometimes, I feel like simply screaming at those who don’t share our beliefs and convictions, “please, just leave us be…let us hold to those lines that keep us to the side of what is of good in life…even if you don’t understand it or respect it…for the sake of our society as a whole, just let us succeed in this”.

It matters much more than they realize. And our willingness to continue to try to hold to those lines is something that our nation really can’t afford to lose right now. Not on top of everything else that has been going on.

I have no idea of how to get that part of it across, Erick. Maybe you do.
BlueLandRed

out above. You just have to look at the demographics… it over. The gays are going to win unless there is a huge change of opinion in the under 30 crowd.

So I hope your belief that losing this issue will result in the end of the country is incorrect.
thomasmitchel

All we can do is continue to tell the Truth in a loving, caring way. Sometimes theTruth does not sound loving to a natural or even carnal man. On the other hand, failing to tell the Truth is not loving those around us. The first recorded thing that the father of lies said was “Did God really say . . . “
westcoastpatriette

and am more confident that the younger generation will come to their senses and pull back from support of SSM as they mature. They are being used by the left because most youth go through periods of rebelling against the establishment — no matter what the prevailing issue may be.

How does that saying go…if you are not a Democrat (or a liberal) when you are young, you have no heart but if you are not a Republican (or conservative) by the time you are forty, you have no brains. I think it is just a phase they are going through that they will outgrow — especially as they watch the destructive results of buying into the anything goes mentality the left pushes in the public schools.

At least, that is my hope.
http://nextgenerationvoters.com Bethany

For writing this! Soooo true!
http://www.kjv-truth-ministries.org preachercruz

There IS (or at least should be) a difference between those of us who are saved and those who reject Christ and live un-repentantly sinful lives. We also are NOT to have “friends” who are gay. Sorry, that is just not right. 1 Corinthians 6:14-18 be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. www.kjv-truth-ministries.org
avgjo

See, you don’t have any mass movements of hetersexuals pushing for preferential treatment based on their sexual habits.
http://californiateapartypolitics.blogspot.com/ smokedaddy

Not to endorse this pastor, because I don’t. But if you want to maintain credibility with fair minded readers, Erick, I”d suggest getting the facts straight. As I heard it, this pastor advocated fathers giving their effeminate sons a hit or a shove to the shoulder and challenge them to be a man. Personally, this kind of fathering leaves me cold. But violent. Hardly. If this is the worst we can dig up on Evangelical preachers then I’d say we’re doing OK.
avgjo

I don’t like heterosexuals talking about their sex lives either.

‘Keep it private and be quiet about it’ is my SOP on these matters.
1spark

How do you know we’re all going to an express train to hell? Because the Bible says so? The bible also tells me that I should kill my neighbor for working the sabbath… Exodus 35:2.

Dude relax… we don’t know what’s on the other side. Leave the ‘others’ alone on this. You can wash your hands clean with your feelings and thoughts about this issue. No understanding God will punish you for what you tried to do…

… but then again, what do I know, right?

This reminded me of an Irish saying:

In life, there are only two things to worry about?
Either you are well or you are sick.
If you are well, there is nothing to worry about,
But if you are sick, there are only two things to worry about?
Either you will get well or you will die.
If you get well, there is nothing to worry about,

But if you die, there are only two things to worry about?
Either you will go to heaven or hell.
If you go to heaven, there is nothing to worry about.

And if you go to hell, you?ll be so busy shaking hands with all your friends
You won?t have time to worry!
http://www.tooncesthecat.wordpress.com tooncesthecat

the selective Bible quotes on both sides of this issue. Erick post is perfectly theologically correct. And sound poltical advice, as well, to both sides.
runner12

As Christians we can boldly stand up for what we believe in and even fight to prevent the further moral decay of society without resorting to name-calling and any other such behavior that does not reflect Christ.

Jesus always boldly spoke the truth, but always with grace and love. His Apostles followed his example in an even more hostile environment than we face today.

Tempering our words with grace and mercy does not mean that we back down from our beliefs nor water them down. Grace-filled speech is not a sign of weakness, but strength. It shows that we realize that we ourselves are sinners and need every bit of the grace of Jesus offers to all mankind.
texasref

you probably would see some pushing!

But yeah, since they already have the right, I agree, they aren’t pushing for what they already have.
BlueLandRed

are quite a bit more optimistic about the younger generations than I.
texasref

to me as a conservative is when you conflate the ENTIRE DESTRUCTIVE LIBERAL AGENDA (“anything goes mentality the left pushes in the public schools”) — which is totally accurate and I agree with you 100% on — with the singular issue of whether the government–for civil purposes only–should recognize marriages performed by all non-satan-worshipping churches.

Time and time again, I see posters on here grasp at winning arguments that have nothing to do with the actual issue of governmental equal recognition of marriage. That’s a lot of dirty bathwater you’re talking about, but the fact remains you’re trying to throw out the baby, and I’m trying to lend a rhetorical SIFTER to this debate.
texasref

only 35% of men age 50+ support legal same-sex marrriage, while 65% of women age 18-49 support it. A whopping 70% of all 18 to 34 year olds support it, up from 54% just one year before.

As long as people age 50-81 (32 year span) vote in greater numbers than people age 18-49 (32 year span), even though the median age is about 37 in America, the anti-marriage rights referenda will continue to win. The only question is not whether these referenda will contniue to win, but for how long.

The Supreme Court will step in.
texasref

“Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist!”

“Give a good punch!”

The violent, physical abuse of children is NOT OK. You go ahead and try that in front of me with your kid, and you’ll have someone else your own size to “crack” and “punch” RIGHT QUICK (if you even can).
avgjo

We cannot judge people. We can judge actions.

Our judgement of actions is based on what the Word of God tells us is right and wrong, that is, what is and is not sin.

When we judge actions, we are discerning, by the Grace of God and by His Word, what is right and what is wrong. In pointing out a wrong action, we are not judging a person as guilty of sin; that is a judgement already made by God of ALL humans:

‘For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.’

Romans 3:23

It is not to judge someone’s soul. God makes that final judgem,ent.

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

James 4:12

NEVERTHELESS, we are to discern:

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1 Corinthians 2:15

Further, we must warn others of sin:

Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 3:17-19

You’ll notice too that the famous ‘judge not’ comes to this a few verses later:

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and THEN shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

(emphasis mine, of course)

Matthew 7:5

It would seem that we have to judge actions constantly. That’s how we hold ourselves and each other accountable. When we judge actions to be right or wrong, we are making a judgement of whether or not those actions are line with God’s law. In a sense, we’re merely citing His law.
lineholder

I’m not doubting you. It’s just that after the vote on Tuesday, I started trying to do a little research on some of the polling data. What I ran into is that the breakdown on the demographics is incomplete. Like this one:

http://thequeue.gallup.com/2012/05/more-data-on-who-favors-and-who-opposes.html

It provides %s, but it doesn’t provide a breakdown on how many Ds, Rs, and Is were interviewed. Well, if have a higher number of Ds in your population sample, then that they skew the data, couldn’t it? Or like you pointed out…people who are older might hold to more traditional views on marriage whereas the people who are younger may not hold to the same views. If a population sample is heavier on the younger age than it has been in the past, couldn’t this make it look like the % of approval was increasing?

I’m really just trying to find out some specifics, and that’s about it.
Bill S

Excellent comment.
petsem

Those individuals that oppose gay marriage must ask themselves some deep questions.

1. Traditional marriage use to exclude interracial marriage. If the internet existed in the 1970′s would you have written identical e-mails. Do not pass over easily because we are in 2012, think critically as if you were in the 1970′s. finally throb iOS point here, is that you cannot fall back on to the “traditional marriage”argument because the definition has changed as recently as the 1970′s.

2. Any true argument against Gay Marriage must start with the idea that it is a choice to be Gay. After all, if it is not a choice then the Decleration of Independence statement regarding the “Right to pursue Happiness” would surffice. Hasn’t everyone met at least one gay person that was obviously born gay.

3. If the answer to the question at the the end of point two is correct, who are you to judge who was born gay and who was not?
BlueLandRed

(bad pun intended)

but yes, unless there is a seismic shift in the younger generations… this fight is over.

And SCOTUS, well… they can’t proactively rule that gay marriage is illegal, nor does it make any sense for them to rule that gay marriage is a state only issue until Congress passes a law trying to force states to accept it.

However, should ObieWon win (shudder) re-election and appoint another member and change the make up from 5 – 4 to 4 -5 rule that the equal protection clause means that gays can marry gays.

Regardless, I just don’t see how the GOP can win this argument long term. I understand that from morality point of view, this is a hard thing to give in on… but to me it’s a lost cause… and I just don’t see the political benefit of expending political capital fighting it. But that’s just me.
texasref

I narrowed the search parameters to less than a year and it came up. Barely.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/first-time-majority-americans-favor-legal-gay-marriage.aspx
texasref

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/first-time-majority-americans-favor-legal-gay-marriage.aspx

It’s 11 months old.
texasref

does this work
texasref

4th try to comment, using IE now.

The poll is from 11 months ago.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147662/first-time-majority-americans-favor-legal-gay-marriage.aspx
RJLigier

Gay ?marriage? not a right, prohibiting gay adoption not ?discrimination?: European Court of Human Rights (REJECTION OF THE SOCIAL ACTIVISM OF THE APAs/ABA AND THE SWEDISH MODEL IN THE INTEREST OF CHILDREN)

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/gay-marriage-not-a-right-prohibiting-gay-adoption-not-discrimination-europe#

Russians overwhelmingly endorse ?gay propaganda? ban

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/russians-overwhelmingly-endorse-gay-propaganda-ban?utm_source=LifeSiteNews.com%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=448adc7414-LifeSiteNews_com_Canada_Headlines_04_19_2012&utm_medium=email#
thomasmitchel

Color, race and ethnicity are inherited characteristics, and are morally neutral.

I am willing to concede that there may be a genetic predisposition to homosexual attraction, just as there is a genetic predisposition to addiction. In fact, every human has a predsipostion to sin. That does not excuse acting in obedience. That does not excuse seeking to follow the commands, in fact, the demands of the Sciptures. It is not a sin to have the feeling, but to indulge the feeling and act on it, and grace is found in resisting the temptation. James 1.

The Bible only condones marriage in the context of one man, one woman forever. That was certainly Christ’s standard. Matthew 5:31-32, Matthew 19:3-12, Mark 10:1-12, Luke 16:18. Christ was a jewish teacher in the first century who meticulously kept the Law — He would not condone homosexual activity. Those who say He never spoke about homosexual acts are not taking the whole counsel of Scripture. He is the Word and the Scriptures are the inspired Word of God. (And to go ahead and answer the argument that the NT condones slavery, read Philemon to see God’s real view of human slavery.)

There are polygamists in the OT, but it is never held up as the standard for men and women. Christ’s and Paul’s teachings make it clear that for Christ followers marriage is one man, one woman. And given that marriage is one picture he uses to describe the relationship of Christ and the Church, we should be cautious how we approach it.

RS

EDITOR OF REDSTATE

Where Is The Balance?

COMMENTS

ALL

COMMENTS

POPULAR

#RSRH

PICK YOUR STATE & GET LOCAL