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On this “Natural Born Citizen” Issue, Part I: From Alexander Hamilton to Lynch v. Clarke

Promoted from diaries.

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President…

–Article II, Section 1 of the United States Constitution

This is a passage that has weighed heavily upon us in recent years. There are those among us, known commonly as “Birthers” who dispute the eligibility of various politicians to be President or Vice-President of the United States. The most popular target of the Birthers is Barack Obama, of course, but of late, Birthers have been training their sights on the cases of Marco Rubio, Nikki Haley, Bobby Jindal, Ted Cruz, and probably others.

Leaving aside the birth certificate issue, which is unique to Obama’s case (and for the record, I do believe he was born in Hawaii), the main sticking point for the Birthers is that all four of the politicians have at least one parent who was not born in America (indeed, Obama is the only one who had a parent who was an American citizen at the time of his birth, his mother). They are fond of quoting the line from Book I, Chapter XIX of Emmerich de Vattel’s The Law of Nations: “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”

While they are not wrong in that the Founders were fond of the book, there’s one problem with trying to apply this interpretation to our Constitution: the United States’ legal history.

I am planning this to be a mutli-part series. Part II will deal with the interpretation of this clause in the latter half of the 19th century, with particular emphasis placed on the 14th Amendment and later court cases. Part III, meanwhile, will deal with how the clause has been dealt with in the 20th century and in our day. So, let’s jump right in.

Hit the jump for more.

I believe it’s best to start with Alexander Hamilton’s draft of the Constitution. By his plan, the particular section relating to a President’s eligibility would have said:

No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a citizen of one of the States or hereafter be born a citizen of the United States.

–Article IX, Section 1 of Hamilton’s plan

This means that, under Hamilton’s plan, and he was certainly important in the drafting of the Constitution (and as the Federalist Papers show, one of its biggest defenders), a President need only be born in the United States, with no “natural born” affixed to the term “citizen”. There is no real explanation that I can find as to why the Committee of Eleven changed the phrase to its present form, but it was. Making it even worse, the Constitution itself does not define the term “natural born citizen”. A quote from James Madison, popularly acknowledged as the “author” of the Constitution, provides a clue as to what our Founders meant. In one of his papers, dated the 22 May, 1789, he wrote the following (emphasis mine):

It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other.

Having mentioned this, I think it would be best to now examine what early legal minds had to say on the subject. We’ll start with Zephaniah Swift. He was a member of the Connecticut House of Representatives, serving as its Speaker in 1792, as well as clerk for four sessions. From 1793 to 1797, he served in the Federal Congress as well as a Pro-Administration representative in his first term and as a Federalist in his second. The Connecticut Judicial Branch in its biography of him says:

Judge Swift has been praised as one of the greatest early American jurists by Wesley W. Horton in his book, The Connecticut State Constitution. Swift studied at Yale before entering the practice of law, and represented the town of Windham in the General Assembly of Connecticut. He was elected to the U.S. Congress where he served from 1787 to 1793. A brief paragraph in the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress states he “also engaged in literary pursuits.”

More specifically, Swift wrote the first legal treatise published in America. This work, A System of the Law of the State of Connecticut, published in 1795, presents Swift’s observations on government, the constitution of the state, and differences between English and American common law. In 1810, Swift published the first treatise on the law of evidence.

So, this is a man who served with our Founding Fathers in the United States Congress. What does he have to say about the issue? In his legal treatise, he wrote:

It is an established maxim, received by all political writers, that every person owes a natural allegiance to the government of that country in which he is born. Allegiance is defined to be a tie, that binds the subject to the state, and in consequence of his obedience, he is entitled to protection…

The children of aliens, born in this state, are considered as natural born subjects, and have the same rights with the rest of the citizens.”

Meanwhile, in 1803, St. George Tucker, a lawyer, a professor at the College of William and Mary, judge on Virginia’s high court, and U.S. district judge for Virginia, wrote this in 1803 in his work on Blackstone’s Commentaries on English law:

That provision in the constitution which requires that the president shall be a native-born citizen (unless he were a citizen of the United States when the constitution was adopted,) is a happy means of security against foreign influence…

A very respectable political writer makes the following pertinent remarks upon this subject. “Prior to the adoption of the constitution, the people inhabiting the different states might be divided into two classes: natural born citizens, or those born within the state, and aliens, or such as were born out of it.

Moving forward in time some, we find the works of James Kent. This is a man whose reputation in American law is such that one man, William Curtiss, wrote a book in 1900 called James Kent: The Father of American Jurisprudence, about him. Also of interest to us conservatives is a book written on him in 2000 called James Kent: A Study in Conservatism 1763-1847 by John Theodore Horton. Kent’s most remembered work is his Commentaries on American Law, written between 1826 and 1830. This was a four volume magnum opus dealing with state, federal, and international law, as well as the law of personal property and rights. In Lecture XIII, which was on the Presidency, from Volume One, Part II, he states the following of the President’s qualifications (emphasis mine):

2. Qualifications. — The Constitution requires (a) that the President shall be a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and that he shall have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and shall have been fourteen years a resident within the United States. Considering the greatness of the trust, and that this department is the ultimately efficient executive power in government, these restrictions will not appear altogether useless or unimportant. As the President is required to be a native citizen of the United States, ambitious foreigners cannot intrigue for the office, and the qualification of birth cuts off all those inducements from abroad to corruption, negotiation, and war, which have frequently and fatally harassed the elective monarchies of Germany and Poland, as well as the pontificate at Rome.

In Lecture XXV from Part IV of Volume II, Kent explains just who qualifies as a native (though it should be obvious):

1. Of Natives. —Natives are all persons born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the United States.

Concurrent with Kent’s work, we find William Rawle in agreement with him. According the the University of Pennsylvania’s website on him (he served as a trustee of the university), Rawle was:

William Rawle quickly gained a reputation as an able attorney, eventually serving as chancellor of the Philadelphia Bar from 1822 until his death. As a Federalist he served a term in the Assembly, but found that politics were not to his liking. After his 1791 appointment by George Washington as U.S. District Attorney for Pennsylvania, Rawle handled the prosecutions stemming from the whiskey riots in the western part of Pennsylvania. He stepped down from this office in 1799.

In 1829, he wrote A View of the Constitution. In this work, he addresses what the term “natural born citizen” means on page 86:

Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining to that capacity…Under our Constitution the question is settled by its express language, and when we are informed that, excepting those who were citizens, (however the capacity was acquired,) at the time the Constitution was adopted, no person is eligible to the office of president unless he is a natural born citizen, the principle that the place of birth creates the relative quality is established as to us.

In 1840, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court Joseph Story, one of the most well-respected men to even serve on that body, wrote his own Constitutional handbook titled A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States. On page 167, he addresses Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. After citing it in §269, he addresses the meaning of the citizenship requirement in § 271, saying:

It is not too much to say, that no one, but a native citizen, ought ordinarily to be intrusted [sic] with an office so vital to the safety and liberties of the people.

Having seen what early legal minds had to say on the subject, and there are many more examples that could have been provided here beyond these five men, I think it’s time to turn to what the courts have said on the matter. Before he wrote his handbook, Justice Story, in 1830, offered the following opinion in the Supreme Court case Inglis v. The Trustees of Sailor’s Snug Harbor. From page 637 of the United States Supreme Court reports, Volumes 26-29, he says:

Now, allegiance is nothing more than the tie or duty of obedience of a subject to the sovereign under whose protection he is, and allegiance by birth is that which arises from being born within the dominions and under the protection of a particular sovereign. Two things usually concur to create citizenship: first, birth locally within the dominions of the sovereign, and secondly, birth within the protection and obedience, or, in other words, within the ligeance of the sovereign. That is, the party must be born within a place where the sovereign is at the time in full possession and exercise of his power, and the party must also at his birth derive protection from, and, consequently, owe obedience or allegiance to, the sovereign, as such, de facto.

And he continues on page 640:

That the father and mother of the demandant were British born subjects is admitted. If he was born before the 4th of July, 1776, it is as clear that he was born a British subject. If he was born after the 4th of July, 1776, and before the 15th of September, 1776 [when the British again occupied New York, where Inglis was born], he was born an American citizen, whether his parents were at the time of his birth British subjects or American citizens. Nothing is better settled at the common law than the doctrine that the children even of aliens born in a country while the parents are resident there under the protection of the government and owing a temporary allegiance thereto are subjects by birth.

The New York Court of Chancery case Lynch v. Clarke (and Lynch) (Bernard Lynch v. John Clarke and Julia Lynch) from 1844 is one of the most prescient and important cases dealing with the matter, and it is the most important case for this study before the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment. The official report of the case describes on pages 587-88 the circumstances behind the case and of Julia’s birth:

Her parents were British subjects, domicilled [sic] in Ireland. They came to this country in 1815, remained till the summer of 1819, and then returned to Ireland. Julia was born in the city of New-York, in the spring of 1819. Her parents took her with them on their return, and she remained in Ireland till after the death of Thomas Lynch [her uncle who lived in New York]. During the sojourn of her father here, Thomas hired a farm for him and paid the rent. Her father occupied the farm for a time, but it is proved that he was not contented here. One witness testified that Patrick Lynch (Julia’s father) always wished to return to Ireland…It does not appear that he ever declared his intention to become a citizen under the act of Congress; or ever expressed any intention to reside here permanently. Some years after he returned to Ireland, he came here on a visit, without bringing his wife or any of his family; remained for six short months; and then returned to Ireland, where he and his wife continued to reside until their death.

As the report notes elsewhere, Thomas Lynch died intestate. Bernard Lynch was, like Patrick, a brother of Thomas. He had emigrated to the United States in 1834, and he was naturalized a citizen in 1839. “The legislature of this state, in 1841, passed an act entitling him to the real estate of Thomas,” the report says on page 586, “saving, however, the claims of the heirs of Thomas, and the existing rights of Julia Lynch.” In 1839, the state had passed a similar law in her favor, with the only thing in saving her from inheriting the estate being the heirs of Thomas at law.  The case filed by Bernard before the court was that Julia had never been naturalized, and if she was entitled to any of Thomas Lynch’s estate at all, it would be no more than one-fourth. Furthermore, the case recognized Mr. Clarke’s claim to be the exclusive owner of Thomas’ land.

However, Mr. Clarke spoke out in Julia’s favor. Says the report on page 587:

Mr. Clarke…stated that the purchases at Saratoga were all made in his own name, and at his risk, and for his sole benefit. That [Thomas] Lynch had from the outset, refused to participate in the adventure, and for many years decried it. That a considerable part of the purchase money was paid out of the funds of the firm, but that the money was loaned to him by the firm, with the concurrence of Lynch, and he had repaid it all to the firm and to Lynch’s administrator. He also alleged that Julia Lynch was a citizen of the United States, and inherited all the real estate of Thomas Lynch.

Julia Lynch…insisted that she was a native born citizen, and as such inherited all the real estate whereof Thomas Lynch was seised [sic], or to which he was equitably entitled. She moreover claimed that by the act of the legislature in her favor, she was entitled to the whole property to the exclusion of the complainant [Bernard Lynch].

So, was Julia Lynch a citizen? That was the question before the court. The peculiar nature of the case meant that she must either have been a natural born citizen because she was born to her parents, though they were aliens, on U.S. soil, or that she was not a citizen at all because her parents were aliens regardless of the place of her birth and that she had never made any attempt to be naturalized.

To make a long story short, the court ruled in her favor. Over the course of the case, the Vice-Chancellor Lewis Sandford of the court noted the following (the Vice-Chancellor’s opinion begins on page 637 of the report I have been citing, and I will cite the relevant page numbers at the end of each quote):

First. It is insisted by the defendants that the rule of the common law is to govern this case on the point of alienage.

It is an indisputable proposition, that by the rule of the common law of England, applied to these facts, Julia Lynch was a natural born citizen of the United States.

pp.638-639

Second. Such being the rule of common law in absence of express legislation, the difficult question is presented for decision; is the common law in this respect, the law of this state, or of the United States?

–pg. 639

Third. The next inquiry is therefore, what is the national law of the United States on this subject?

…At the formation of our present national government, the common law prevailed as a system of jurisprudence, in all the thirteen states which then constituted the nation…Both the former, and the present constitutions of this state declared, in effect, that the common law was the basis of the law in this state. (Constitution of 1777, Art. 35; Constitution of 1821, Art. 7 § 13.)

…It is indifferent whether we say that we inherited the common law or the principles of the common law. There is no doubt but that in all the thirteen colonies, it was the common origin of our jurisprudence.

pp. 646-647

The Constitution of the United States, like those of all the original states (and in fact, of all the new states now forming the Union, with the exception of Louisiana,) presupposed the existence and the authority of the common law. The principles of that law were the basis of our institutions.

pg. 652

What we have established thus far in the ruling is the following:

  • Under the common law of England, Julia Lynch would be considered a natural born citizen of the United States.
  • The common law of England formed the basis of the law of New York, and both of the Constitutions the state had used up until 1844 made this evident.
  • In this respect, New York was not essentially different from any of the other thirteen colonies.
  • The United States Constitution and our national institutions were formed on the basis of the common law.
The next section that I am going to quote is the most important part of the case as it relates to the qualifications to eligible to seek the Presidency. Over the course of his remarks, the Vice-Chancellor opines on page 656 as to how this will relate to the Presidency (bolding mine due to the incredible importance of this part):
The only standard which then existed [when the Constitution was written], of a natural born citizen, was the rule of common law, and no different standard has been adopted since. Suppose a person should be elected president who was native born, but of alien parents; could there be any reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the Constitution? I think not. The position would be decisive in his favor, that by the rule of the common law, in force when the Constitution was adopted, he is a citizen.
The case also is important because it deals with de Vattel’s definitions in his work I quoted earlier. Gilbert M. Speir, an attorney for Mr. Clarke says:

To find an authority in Vattel, we must be sure to find the proposition which is intended by the author to meet the case. Hence the error of the complainant’s counsel. They cite Sec. 212, which is a definition in the limited and strictest sense of ” natives and citizens,” the smallest possible circle of that class. He does not define all who compose the citizens of a country, but when we read Sec. 215, we have the identical authority for the question at issue in this discussion ; which is, in the language of the author, ” whether children born of citizens in a foreign country, are citizens.” ” The laws have decided this question in several countries, and their regulations must be followed.” ” By the law of nature, children follow the condition of the father; the place of birth produces no change in this particalar.” “But civil and political laws may, for particular reasons, ordain otherwise.” Now this is the authority, and the civil and political laws of England and the United States have decided that such children are citizens, and owe allegiance to the government. ” These regulations must be followed,” says Mr. Vattel; for that is the public law in those countries, and that is his reason. The Supreme Court of the U. S. held the doctrine as thus laid down by Vattel in Dawson’s Lessees v. Godfrey,(4 Cranch, 321.) And see Rutherforth’s Institutes, ch. 2, p. 41.

Mr. Vattel says it is by the law of nature that ” children follow the condition of their father;” but he decides this question by positive law, such as any particular country may ordain.

Charles F. Grim, another attorney for Mr. Clarke, elaborates:

Vattel was quoted as an authority against the rule for which we contend. Yet if his own explanation of his own terms is used, it may be an authority in our favor; he prefaces this chapter by stating that he had previously defined the term native country, and refers to §122, where he says, ” when we speak in general of the duty to our country, the term is to be understood as meaning the state of which a man is an actual member.” Patrick Lynch was an actual member of this state at the time of his daughter’s birth.

Our state convention on 16th July, 1776, (see 20 Johns. R.  315, 326, which was referred to by the complainent’s counsel, with approbation,) shows its views of national law; it declares ” that all persons abiding within the state, and deriving protection from its laws, owe allegiance to its laws, and are members of the state,” and then distinguishes those passing through merely, or visiting, or making a temporary stay.

pp. 622-623

In the ruling on the case, Vice Chancellor Sandford takes his stab at the people appealing to de Vattel (bolding mine):

In reference to the argument that the United States should establish a rule on proper principles, and which shall be just to other nations, it may be said that this is purely a matter of municipal regulation, in every country. Vattel treats it as being legitimately within the control of each nation acting for itself. The rule of the common law is not unjust to other nations, in claiming as citizens those who are born here under the protection of our institutions and government. The other rule is more liable to the charge of injustice, viz: claiming as American citizens those born in other countries of American parents.

pg. 660

I would highly recommend reading the entire opinion of the Vice Chancellor, as he makes mention of Rawle’s interpretation which I noted earlier in addition to several other authorities I could have mentioned, including Justice Story. However, before I conclude my study of the piece, I’d like to quote a couple of parting shots at de Vattel’s ideas from the Vice Chancellor:

It was assumed to be an indisputable proposition, that by the international or public law, she was an alien; for that by the public law, the child follows the political condition of the parent. It is evident that this rule, without very important qualifications, might lead to the perpetuation of a race of aliens ; for if no one of the successive fathers effected his naturalization during the minority of the next in succession, generation after generation would continue in a state of alienage. Accordingly, the difficulty is sought to be obviated, by giving to the child born of alien parents, the election, on arriving at maturity, to become a citizen, either of the state where he was born, or of the state of which his father was a member.

pg. 673

[De Vattel says] in reference to the inquiry whether children born of citizens in a foreign country, are citizens, that the laws have decided the question in several countries, and it is necessary to follow their regulations.

pg. 676

So, what we may gather from all of these sources I have quoted is that the phrase “natural born citizen” in Article II, Section 1 of the United States Constitution has historically been interpreted from the earliest days of the republic, by the Founding Fathers and early legal authorities, as meaning someone who is born in this country, regardless of the status of their parents. This is derived, as Lynch v. Clarke has shown, from English common law, which is the basis of our national Constitution, our national institutions, and the Constitutions and institutions of each state except for Louisiana, which derives its basis from French law, particularly the Napoleonic Code. Furthermore, de Vattel leaves the precise definition of what makes a citizen up to the individual nations, and in our case, it is how I have said above.

One of the major things that you can note about the people asserting that Obama (or Rubio, Jindal, etc.) is not a natural born citizen based on de Vattel’s definition is the curious absence of Lynch v. Clarke in their arguments. They also omit entirely any references to common law, which as Lynch v. Clarke has demonstrated (and it is not alone, but I will address other examples later) is vitally important to understanding the meaning of the clause. This is somewhat odd (though I do not remove the possibility that it is intentional on their part) since the case deals directly with the question of what makes a natural born citizen. Finally, as I noted before, these people tend to believe that there is a difference between “natural born” and “native born” citizens, but this distinction evidently did not exist in early American legal history. As the authorities I have quoted demonstrate, the two terms were, if anything, employed as synonyms for each other.

Additionally, something to note here is that the terms “natural born” and “native born” citizen (and similar terms) are used interchangeably in these works. The authors do not find any distinction at all between the two terms, something modern day Birthers tend to overlook. Also, in the contest between jus soli (law of the soil) and jus sanguinis (law of blood [relations]), the former has won out in the major legal treatises and court cases of the early republic.

Based upon the sources looked at here, we may conclude that Obama, Rubio, Haley, Cruz, and Jindal are all indeed “natural born citizens” by American legal understanding. However, this is but the beginning of our examination of the issue. It is important to know these sources, but they are not all that needs to be considered. A lot of time has passed since 1844, and the issue has come up several other times in American history since then. That is what I will be looking at in subsequent parts of this series. Particularly for my next post, the elephant in the room is the 14th Amendment. What effect, if any, did the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment have upon this clause’s meaning? There are those today who assert that this amendment altered the meaning of citizenship, but did it really? Furthermore, there are other cases and authorities after those mentioned here that need to be dealt with. However, we will get around to these issues in the next post. I have droned on long enough here. Part II will be up as soon as I finish it, which will hopefully be soon.

COMMENTS

  • rforeman

    First and foremost where is any mention in this piece of the premier Supreme Court Ruling on the Subject Minor vs. Happersett? This post is fatally flawed without mentioning this or Dr, Herb Titus. Why was that left out of the discussion? Much like the CRS report that congressional staffers have ont the subject of Natural Born has stuff the supreme court never said.

    But let’s look at the Minor ruling

    “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

    If the parents aren’t citizens then the kid is not a natural born citizen and this was settled from the book “The Law of Nations” which the founding fathers settled on Says very clearly to be a Natural Born Citizen you have to have two citizen parents. It is very terrible how RedState has handled the Eligibilty issue and there will be a day of reckoning very soon in the conservative movement if you don’t order a forensic examination of the Obama Birth Certificate.

    • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

      Or did you actually read what I had to say?

      • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

        I will not be lending any legitimacy to Constitution Party Candidates.

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      Why don’t you spend some quality time at InfoWars. You’ll get eaten alive here, you’re not nearly smart enough to post here.

    • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

      …to read your explanation about why 1875 comes before 1844 on your calendar, the brutal truth of it is that we ban Birthers on sight.

      Sorry. At least this way you don’t have to explain away your awkward mistake.

      • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

        tar baby ever.

      • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

        To cite Minor v. Happersett as the definitive statement of the meaning of the phrase ?natural born citizen? is to exhibit an unfortunate lack of understanding of the Supreme Court?s 1874 decision in that case.
        –Law Professor Joseph Hylton. http://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2009/10/14/president-chester-a-arthur-and-the-birthers-1880?s-style/

        • vnov5

          A rational and well-researched discussion on this topic is rare. Thank you.

  • audacity17

    I thought birther talk was banned here at Redstate. I guess the conservative punditry who have ignored this issued for years will now start the propaganda on why Rubio et al are all good for VP. No thanks, all this analysis has been done already by Leo Donofrio and Mario Apuzzo.

    http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/

    http://puzo1.blogspot.com/

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      get a kick out of it. Oops, it’s you that will get the kick. Heh.

      • gekster

        maybe we can play with him awhile.

        • checkmate2012

          n/t

    • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

      Bye.

  • texasref

    You have made a conclusive case that even before the Fourteenth Amendment, everyone born in the U.S. is a natural-born citizen. What about those born abroad to U.S.-citizen parents? What if only the father is a U.S. citizen? What if only the mother? Would you go with what De Vattel said in that the law of the country where the person was born would decide the question? If so, was the standard practice to look at the lineage of the father?

    What did Vice Chancellor Sandford mean when he said, “The other rule is more liable to the charge of injustice, viz: claiming as American citizens those born in other countries of American parents?”

    In your conclusion, you state: “Also, in the contest between jus soli (law of the soil) and jus sanguinis (law of blood [relations]), the former has won out in the major legal treatises and court cases of the early republic. Based upon the sources looked at here, we may conclude that Obama, Rubio, Haley, Cruz, and Jindal are all indeed ?natural born citizens? by American legal understanding.”

    That contradicts. Your entire essay supports the notion that jus soli wins over jus sanguinis, which would mean that Obama, if he were born where he claimed from 1991 to 2007 to have been born, would NOT, in fact, be a natural-born citizen. Perhaps if his father were the U.S. citizen and his mother had been the Kenyan, the analysis changes. Just based on what you provided. So I don’t get how you came to the conclusion you came to based on the analysis you presented.

  • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

    In response to your first point, people born abroad to US citizens are, by our laws, US citizens in the same way as if they had been born on US soil. They might also, depending on the laws of the nation they were born in, be citizens of that nation. I could be wrong, but I do not believe US law particularly distinguishes between whether a child is born abroad of two citizens or one citizen, whether the mother or father. The Supreme Court left this matter, as I will discuss in my next post, up to Congressional statute, not the Constitution.

    The Vice Chancellor would support my opinion on page 659:

    With regard to the act of 1802, I do not think that the children of our citizens born abroad, are aliens. Not that I subscribe to the argument of the complainant’s opening counsel, that the terms of the act itself embrace the children of all future citizens. Butus at present advised, I believe it to have been the common law of “England that children born abroad of English parents, were subjects of the crown. The statute, 25 Edward III., st. 2, De natis ultra mare, appears to have been declaratory of the old common law.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6UUMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA659#v=onepage&q&f=false

    As for what the VC meant in the other quote you mention.Perhaps some more of his opinion could help illuminate:

    If such were the common law, it was in force in the colonies, and was one of the rights which the citizens of the United States retained and still hold under the Constitution. The provisions in the acts of Congress of 1790, 1795 and 1802, to secure these rights to children born abroad, were in this view a superabundant caution. But the circumstance of two different national legislatures having passed such laws, is strong proof that they did not suppose the natural or public law controlled the case. For the very principle of public law which is insisted on here to establish the alienage of Julia Lynch, Proles sequitur sortem paternam, would apply to the cases provided for in these acts of Congress. If the common law was considered in force on this subject, the national legislature might well act upon the doubt which prevailed as long ago as the time of Edward III., in regard to children born abroad of citizen parents, and which has ever since prevailed. But in the civil and public law, if the complainant’s ground be tenable, there was no doubt whatever.

    And after the quote in my post, he said the following on page 661, with the first sentence being a direct continuation of the paragraph I quoted:
    Yet no one questions, that justice to our own citizens demands this principle.

    The monopolizing spirit of the British nation was alluded to. We have inherited a goodly portion of the Saxon and Norman thirst for territorial and national aggrandizement; and we may, as we have heretofore done, gratify it to the enlargement of the bounds of civil liberty, and of the happiness of mankind. And the adoption of both of the rules of the common law which I have discussed, while they promote those noble objects, do no injustice to other nations. The principal foreign nation affected by those rules, if applied in our country, is Great Britain. Both rules are in full force there, as against our own people and government. And there is a moral certainty that their law, fastening the duty of allegiance upon the simple circumstance of nativity in their dominions, which has been undisturbed for centuries, will never be changed. Why then should the United States make a change, which, if it were ever so desirable, can never be reciprocal ?
    The policy of our nation has always been to bestow the right of citizenship freely, and with a liberality unknown to the old world. I hold this to be our sound and wise policy still, notwithstanding the religious intolerance which partially obscured it in some of our colonial legislation, and the hostility which has occasionally, and even recently, prevailed against it in some parts of our country. And I cannot refrain from expressing the more surprise at this partial relapse from the progressive and ameliorating influence of free institutions, and of the immense increase of commercial and literary relations and intercourse between different countries, because it is contemporary with the passage of a law in Great Britain, strongly indicative of the force of those influences, and at a single step making greater progress than she has made on that subject for nearly 500 years. I refer to the act to amend the laws relating to aliens, passed August 6th, 1844. (Stat. 7 and 8 Vict., sess. 4th, ch. 66.) An act which, in its concessions to aliens, goes far beyond most of the existing legislation in this country.

    We have elsewhere dealt with the fact that Obama claimed he was born in Kenya at one time. You can see Erick’s post for more on that. http://www.redstate.com/erick/2012/05/18/barack-obama-a-composite-kenyan/

    • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

      NT

    • texasref

      You said that Obama claimed Kenyan citizenship at one time. That bio was on his publicist’s website for over 16 years, hardly “one time.”

      Also, you answered my question by saying “U.S. citizen” but that wasn’t my question, and it’s my fault for not being clear. I meant NATURAL BORN citizen. So to rephrase, would someone born on foreign soil of U.S. citizen-parents be a NATURAL BORN citizen? It’s clear that they would be a U.S. citizen, but a NATURAL BORN citizen? That’s my question. Do you have any founding father or early caselaw (even dictum) on this?

      • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

        The Naturalization Act of 1790 said that all children born to citizens abroad were natural born citizens, provided at the very least their father was a US citizen. The mother being a citizen alone would not be good enough.

        Future acts, (1795 & 1802) said the same thing, but took out the “natural born” part.

        But since I believe Obama was born in the US, this is a moot point to me.

        • texasref

          I was led to believe that as long as one parent was a U.S. citizen, that was enough, but it has to be the father. I think that’s sexist.

          • streiff

            good overview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States#Statute.2C_by_parentage

  • GregInFla

    Like Neil’s tech diaries, I know that I learned something tonight. Thanks Jake. I look forward to the next installment. (I am curious now where David Barton stands on this issue. More research on my part is now necessary). (I was just outside and watched the SpaceX launch here. Clear skies and no one else outside to hear my clapping made it somewhat magical.)

    • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

      So, I’ve been trying to infuse my most recent posts with some historical perspective.

  • trutexan

    because I’m much more informed now, this will be hard to discuss around the water cooler.

    I did a little research on my own and I can’t recall the website, but it spoke to the fact that the framers made the distinction between Citizen and Natural-Born Citizen for a reason, otherwise they would have been redundant. What was that purpose and what is the distinction is up for debate because they didn’t extrapoloate. At the time, it was crystal clear to them.

    Can Rubio be VP if his parents didn’t become citizens until AFTER he was born? He is by definition, a Citizen as he was born here. But his parents initial citizenship was Cuban. The purpose of Natural-born Citizen (according to this site) was country loyalty…or lack of. If Obama’s father never became a US citizen and his influence of Anti-colonialism was passed on to his son, could this explain Obama’s Socialist tendenacies? According to this site, had the Natural-born Citizen been explained as both parents possessing US citizenship before the child’s birth or within X years of birth, then Obama would not be eligible even though he was born in Hawaii (and lied about it to get foreign student loans and meet a student status quota- j/k).

    I guess the bottom line is that the founders definition is now pure conjecture and it will come down to as long as a child was born here (or is eligible born overseas to US parents in the military) then he/she is eligible for the office.

    • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

      There are natural born citizens–as this post shows, one born here in the US, or one born overseas to US citizen parents (originally the Father at the very least had to be a US citizen).

      There are naturalized citizens, who are immigrants to this country who have sought and obtained citizenship.

      As I understand it, the term “citizen” when used alone in the Constitution without a modifier, means it is open to either of these two.

      This, as streiff posted elsewhere in the comments here, might also help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States#Statute.2C_by_parentage

  • Risky

    Surely there must be a bi-partisan consensus for an ammendment to clarify this clause? I’m guessing the general view of those who have not taken a particular interest would be that the president needs to have been a citizen form birth – either from being a child of a citizen or by being born in the USA.

    Or would that be a big change to the status quo? Or are there those on one side r the other that would prefer there to be a cloud of uncertainty over certain future candidates?

  • spinoneone

    The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 defined who could acquire citizenship at birth whether born in the U.S. [everyone not on the Diplomatic White List maintained by the U.S. Department of State] and those born abroad to one parent holding U.S. citizenship at the time of birth. If both parents were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth the child was automatically a U.S. citizen.

    The one page on citizenship has produced numerous additions and amendments and approximately 500 pages of regulations, legal opinions, etc.

  • spinoneone

    Keep ‘em coming.

  • streiff

    in RedState history.

  • westcoastpatriette

    no matter how cleverly crafted, sometimes the letter of the law fails to safeguard against the dangers its spirit intended.

    IOW, we have many politicians in America today who are — indisputably — U.S. citizens and yet, they are no more loyal to our nation than our worst enemies. Such is life.

  • calfcreek

    I will withold my entire opinion until you finish laying out your case; though I must say that thus far, you seem to be engaging in a typical technique, not surprising in legal arguments (LOL), of using arguments about ‘citizenship’ to buttress the argument for ‘natural born citizenship’. They are very different and one has nothing to do with the other except to establish the parents citizenship.
    In one paragraph you state that ‘birthers’ argue that one parent wasn’t born in America. That’s irrelevant. The parent only has to be a citizen; they may be naturalized, as long as they are citizens at the time of the birth of the person in question. Again, I’ll wait to see if you address these in your later posts. Thanks for writing.

    • streiff

      if only you’ll return its calls.

      You completely misstate what is in the post.

      • calfcreek

        I comprehend fine. The author picks cases where the term ‘native born’ is conflated with ‘natural born’ while ignoring the ones that distinguish between those two. He quotes Kent saying that the qualification for the presidency is to be ‘native born’. It is not. The author goes on to ‘conclude’ that from “these cases” we can conclude that BHO et al are ‘natural born citizens’. Nothing could be further from the truth.

        If the Founders intended the terms to mean the same why didn’t they use the other? Or just say citizen? They distinguished particularly in this case. This is the importance of Minor v. Happersett though we’ll see how the author deals with that later.

        Statutory construction forbids a more specific clause to be repealed without specific legislative action. Some believe the 14th amendment does that but we aren’t there yet so my comment is based on the current information provided.

        • streiff

          there are two types of citizenship: natural born and naturalized.

          That’s it. Those are your choices. The fact that native and natural are used as synonyms shouldn’t present a great difficulty.

          • Viet71

            Pretty clearly rules out naturalized.

            So what’s left? Seems clear what’s left is “citizen as of birth.”

            Occam’s razor.

          • calfcreek

            See ‘Common Tactic’ above.

            Native Born does not equal Natural Born.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            Native born isn’t Natural born. AUMF isn’t Declaration of War. Certificate of Live Birth isn’t Birth Certificate.

          • calfcreek

            You are completely wrong.
            Naturalized = made a citizen by legislation
            Native = Born on U.S. soil or born overseas to at least one citizen parent (and this one is also debatable as per various court cases)
            Natural Born = Born on U.S. soil to citizen parents (per Minor v Happersett NEVER disputed, while all other forms of citizenship have been disputed)

            …which is why those who want to argue against ineligibility always conflate the two terms.

            Give the Founders credit, they knew what they were doing.

          • streiff

            you are just making this stuff up. It doesn’t exist anywhere except in your mind.

          • JSobieski

            The phrase “natural-born citizen” has been repeatedly interpretted as to mean someone who is entitled under the Constitution or laws of the US to US citizenship at birth.

            This can mean being born on US soil.
            It can also mean being born on foreign soil if one parent is a US citizen.

            Your definition would actually have disqualified several Presidents and presidential candidates.

            Provide some links with some quotes, or just admit you are making stuff up.

          • Viet71

            “Citizen” is a set that includes the subsets “naturalized citizen” and “citizen at or as of birth”.

          • calfcreek

            …I don’t typically do other peoples research for them. I’ll submit the U.S. Constitution whichs sets the bar at ‘citizen’ for Senators and House members and ‘natural born citizen’ for the President and VP. The 14th amendment adds native born without specifically addressing the natural born clause. Statutory construction demands that a specific clause cannot be overridden by a general clause without specific legislation, which in this case would be a Constitutional amendment, which we do not as yet have. So….yes, you are both wrong.

          • calfcreek

            We have a lot of obfuscation here but not one ounce of refutation for the facts:

            The U.S. Constitution requires ‘natural born citizen’ for Potus and VPotus and ‘citizen’ for Senate and House.

            Vattel in the Law of Nations defines ‘natural born citizen’ as born to citizen parents.

            Show me the amendment to the Constitution which repeals the natural born citizen clause? You can’t, because it doesn’t exist.

            Statutory construction demands that a specific clause be overturned by specific legislation, in this case an amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which DOESN’T exist.

            So, show me, or admit that your are simply playing semantics with words and quoting illegal and unconstitutional ‘judgements’ by non-binding SCOTUS.

            ?On every question of construction, we should carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.? Thomas Jefferson 1823

          • kaheo

            For those who claim that Natural Born citizen means born to 2 US Citizens:

            1. Are kids of single US citizen moms where the father is unknown, natural born citizens or just citizens until they can track their dads and show proof of dad’s citizenship & paternity?

            2. Should paternity tests be done to certify that the father & mother of a candidate are actually the parents and then check their citizenship status?

            3. What happens if a kid is born to US citizen parents who are dual citizens say British, are their kids natural born citizens since they’d have dual citizenship? After how many generations does the dual citizenship stop to matter? 1 or 2

            4. Did the first US Presidents who were not born citizens suffer the problem of dual citizenship since they were born British subjects? Should they have been allowed to serve as President?

            For the record, I believe NBC means being born on US soil (with only exception being kids of Diplomats)

          • calfcreek

            1. Just citizens until an amendment is passed that says otherwise.
            2. No need. See #1
            3. Citizen parents born on U.S. soil. That is all that is required. U.S. citizen parents who birth a child in U.S. make that child ‘Natural Born Citizen’.
            4. Constitution also provides for those who were citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. Article II section 1 paragraph 5.

            For the record, that definition does not comport with the Law of Nations nor does it explain the difference between ‘citizen’ and ‘natural born citizen’ vis a vis the U.S. Constitution. Under your definition a drug kingpins mistress could come across the border two minutes before birth and the child would be eligible to be Potus. Do you seriously believe that is what the Founders intended when they distinguished between ‘citizen’ and ‘natural born citizen’?

            Not condescending, serious question. Do you own a copy of the U.S. Constitution?

          • calfcreek

            When I answered your question….I reached 2 feet across the table to get one of my copies of the Constitution. It occured to me that you may not have one at hand…Have a nice evening.

          • runner12

            Regarding Obama, it is fairly simple given that one of his parents was a U.S. citizen and that he was born in Hawaii.

            But as a subject, the waters are murkier. My understanding of a natural born citizen is someone who was born to a U.S. citizen either here or abroad. Given that definition would this disqualify someone like Rubio ( please say no)?
            Or were is parents naturalized U.S. citizens (thus making him born to U.S. citizens) prior to his birth? I am not clear on that detail of his life.
            What about the others listed? Where is the controversy with these Conservative leaders?

            Sorry for all of the questions, but I am just trying to become informed on this topic.

          • calfcreek

            It takes both parents being citizens and born on U.S. soil.

            Rubio’s parents were not naturalized citizens until 4 years after his birth, so he is Constitutionally ineligible, hence the number of so-called conservatives who have ‘evolved’ on this issue. My blogpost here has a link to his fathers application… http://ignorancebreedstyranny.blogspot.com/2012/04/marco-rubio-friend-or-foe.html

            In Washington D.C. unfortunately, it is all about party and very little about the Constitution.

          • acat

            Rubio was born in Miami.

            Rubio is a citizen.

            Period.

            Quit while you’re behind, sparky.

            Mew

          • calfcreek

            Natural Born Citizen …No.

            I’m not the one who is behind…nor the one obfuscating the facts at hand.

            Did you post the amendment that negated the Natural Born Citizen clause? No, of course you didn’t. It doesn’t exist.

            Did you explain how statutory construction has been adhered to? Again, No. Because you can’t.

            Sigh. Sparkless….

          • acat

            Natural Born Citizen means simply that. Born here, or born abroad to at least one U.S. citizen.

            Everything else you’re throwing is suitable only for growing tomatoes.

            Mew

          • gekster

            If ‘you’ are born in the US, you ‘are’ a natural born citizen.
            Go lefty all you want, we ain’t buying it.

          • acat

            This birtherism .. it is a disease, it destroys the mind.

            Mew

          • gekster

            it must be a disease, like liberalism.

          • gekster

            tells all we need to know.
            The HuffPo is that way.
            <——-

          • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

            bring a stick.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            AT least the bans got done though.

          • Bill S

            Ciao.

          • jakeofalltrades

            He was arguing with lawyers in yet another pointless conspiracy-nut debate that would’ve ended with me explaining the meaning of the words “dicta”, “stare decisis”, and “Article III of the Constitution” and him completely not getting why no one cares about that stupid case he was trying to cite.

          • acat

            Knocked it out of the park.

            Mew

          • Bill S

            You are not pursuing a sound evolutionary strategy here.

          • kaheo

            You’ve answered only question 1 fully. I disagree with your logic but will give you credit for at least answering it. On all others you dodged and I think misunderstood the questions so let me clarify once more:

            2. Why shouldn’t we ask Mitt Romney to prove that George & Lenore Romney were his actual parents and citizens at the time of his birth thus proving he was born a natural born citizen. Unless Mitt proves this, isn’t he just a citizen? If a Presidential candidate can’t prove this according to your logic, they might not be natural born and thus ineligible for POTUS office. Should we have done the same for GwB, Clinton etc?

            3. Does dual citizenship (if one or both of parents have an additional citizenship to US citizenship) disqualify one from being a natural born citizen. To be a bit more clear – If Pierce Brosnan (who became a US Citizen in 2004 but still retains his British citizenship) had a kid after 2004 with an US citizen woman, is the kid a natural born citizen and qualified to be POTUS?

            4. I very well understand there was a clause put in the constitution for those who were not born in US but became US citizens when the constitution was adopted. My question was whether their dual allegiance should’ve been a problem since they were born British subjects?

            You mentioned that dual allegiance is a problem and I understand why. However the notion that the Founding Fathers were geniuses who were incapable of making mistakes or leaving any ambiguities is ridiculous. If they did such a perfect job, why have several amendments been made? Also why did they leave out the definition of natural born if it was indeed a borrowed term from Vattel’s book?

            On your question on 2 drugpins having a kid on US soil and that kid being eligible for POTUS – fortunately/unfortunately that kid is eligible to be POTUS but I’m confident if I assumed the chances of that kid becoming POTUS are pretty slim! Not sure I can get into the brains of the Founding Fathers but if they clarified that, it wouldn’t be an issue. To my knowledge: There are only 2 kind of citizens, natural-born and naturalized.

            The reason for the questions is that I see flaws in the logic presented by this reasoning of having 2 US Citizens to qualify as an nbc. The justification for the argument is excessive and doesn’t have any precedent in addition to being unfounded to show how disastrous it would be to have a POTUS with a particle of foreign DNA in his/her blood.

          • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake Walker

            But I do like your response. :)

          • kaheo

            After I’d taken my sweet time to respond to him!

            Thanks for the lengthy and very enjoyable and informative diary. I look forward to the next part.

          • vnov5

            Could you please explain what you mean by “So, show me, or admit that your are simply playing semantics with words and quoting illegal and unconstitutional ?judgements? by non-binding SCOTUS.” The judgments of the Supreme Court are all binding until overruled by a different judgment of the Court – unless you ignore the Constitution and laws of the U.S.

          • JSobieski

            I put the definition in my comment. If you want to bring up other terms/definitions that are different than “natural born citizen” it is your business—but arguing Y is irrelevant to arguing X. There is no implicit or explicit relationship between “natural born citizen” and “native born citizen”.

          • acat

            Not sure how that stacks up with pearls before swine .. at least in that example you can get a good game of marbles out of it.

            Bill S. forcibly removed calfcrackhead yesterday.

            Mew

  • Joshua Persons

    I trust you’re going to explicitly address both McCain and Arthur?

    I also look forward to your discussion of the 14th. I do believe it’s the elephant in the room, but most discussions of this topic avoid it altogether.

    • angryguy77

      anything before that doesn’t apply.

      Here is one thing for debate:
      Obama’s father was a British subject, therefore Obama could be considered to have allegiance to England as well as the US. You cannot be president if you owe allegiance to another country-regardless of where you were born. This would make Rubio ineligible as well.

      Now of course there is evidence to the contrary as well, but I think we are doing a disservice to pass either side of the argument as
      “crazy” or whatever name you want to use.

      • streiff

        in fact, that is just totally made up. Your whole statement on dual nationality is simply false.

        • angryguy77

          the founders would have been fine with a POTUS holding dual citizenship? Barry’s father was a british subject was he not? Therefore according the to law of nations, wouldn’t Obama be subject to british rule as well?

          I’m merely asking for clarification.

          • streiff

            Dual citizenship was common at the time of our founding. Since 1790 the Congress and courts have been clear: if you are born in the United States you are United States citizen.

            Hundreds of thousands of Americans had dual nationality. Many of them don’t know it. If your parents were born in Greece or Italy (to name but two) you can be drafted if you go to those countries despite never having lived there. Mario Cuomo, for instance, would be considered by Italy to be an Italian. If you were born in a military hospital in Germany you hold German citizenship whether you know it or not. You are supposed to formally renounce it but few do. Obama lost his British citizenship when Kenya became independent. Kenya doesn’t allow dual nationality.

            So I’m not sure what your point is.

            There is more info here. http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/obamas-kenyan-citizenship/

          • dilligas

            A somewhat minor but technical point. Just being born in the United States does not make one automatically a United States Citizen; there is an exception for those that owe their allegience to a foreign power. Otherwise, I tend to agree that someone born in the United States can be / is a US citizen.

            But, does that necessarily make them a Natural Born Citizen? This is the point where the different sides tend to disagree.

            I see 6 main scenarios….

            Scenario 1: Both parents US citizens, born in the US
            Scenario 2: Both parents US citizens, not born in the US
            Scenario 3: 1 Parent US citizen*, 1 not, born in the US
            Scenario 4: 1 Parent US citizen*, 1 not, not born in the US
            Scenario 5: 2 parents US citizens, born in US
            Scenario 6: 2 parents US citizens, not born in the US
            *At one time gender of parent did matter – may still in some cases

            Scenarios 1 and 6 are easy.. natural born and no respectively.

            The remaining scenarios are where the varying sides clash as to whether the child is a Natural born citizen, a Citizen, or even not to be a citizen of the US.

          • dilligas

            Scenarios 5 & 6 should read: 2 parents NOT US citizens

          • Joshua Persons

            Also, we’ve already had at least one (3) President other than Obama. I’ll let you guess who. So there’s at least a de facto precedent for that one.

          • dilligas

            While it was discovered to be true, I’m not sure how precedent setting it would be since he hid the fact that his father was not a US Citizen at the time of his birth. A fact that was only discovered a few years ago.

            Personally, even if the Supreme Court were to come out and state the definition of “Natural Born Citizen” to be used from this day going forward, I still don’t think it would quell the debate for some time…

          • streiff

            it wouldn’t make any difference what his father was or his mother for that matter.

          • dilligas

            (and this is not mean to be confrontational – just an honest question looking for a reasonable answer)

            If it didn’t matter, why do you think he would hide the fact that his father was not a US citizen at the time of his birth?

          • streiff

            I don’t know that he did hide the fact that his father was not a US citizen. In fact, I don’t believe he did. That would have been relatively hard to hide as his father was Irish and well known in pre-Civil War abolitionist circles and a pastor of a series of churches. The fact that we know about it shows it wasn’t too well hidden.

            Arthur did apparently lie about his age, making himself a year younger than he actually was. To what end remains a mystery.

            This is a good read.
            http://www.vermonthistory.org/journal/misc/MysteryOfChester.pdf

          • streiff

            by law, anyone born in the US is a US citizen.

            Period.

            End of discussion.

            There is no exception unless the individual takes a positive act, like applying for a foreign passport, that indicates they are renouncing US citizenship.

            Your assessment of #6 scenario is wrong. Children born of US parent overseas are US citizens just as much as those born in the US. There have been hundreds of thousands of American babies born in Germany, Korea, Japan, the Philippines, etc. They are “natural born.”

          • dilligas

            Scenarios 5 & 6 contained an error as noted above… so scenario 6 is a no…

            As noted it is a technical exception – the person must be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to be a citizen. Children born of foreign dignitaries within the borders of the US is the easiest example of someone being born on US soil, but is not subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

            Other examples existed, but many of the exceptions have been removed via court decisions towards the side of potential citizenship.

            Most of these types of cases fall into the area where there will be disagreement amongst the people – which only the courts will decide the final result.

          • streiff

            an exception but that is because their parents are representatives of their government. They hardly constitute a class worth discussing outside a game of Trivial Pursuit.

          • dilligas

            In some ways, you bring up an excellent point why the President should never have dual citizenship claims.

            Imagine, for example, a dual citizenship with US and Italy. The President would need to avoid ever traveling to Italy or else be potentially drafted into the Itailian military or simply just arrested.

            …not a likely scenario… but, as noted, if it could happen to the ordinary dual-status citizen, why would the dual-status President be any different?

          • streiff

            no nation that I’ve hear of drafts men who are old enough to be President.

            In most countries, if you acquire citizenship by virtue of birth in the country to non-citizen parents you lose citizenship around age 21 or so unless they apply to retain it — this is the Italian and German systems.

          • angryguy77

            Between natural born citizen and citizen. This is what’s being left out here.

            Nobody is saying he isn’t a citizen, but does he fit the definition of a natural born citizen is the question.

            What I find interesting is that nobody ever believes a word Obama says except for this. Why? The man won’t admit his true socialist ideology, yet we should believe him when he tells us he’s a NBC.

            Again, there is a lot of room for discussion on this topic, but I find the “pick what you believe” mentality a bit confusing.

          • streiff

            natural born and naturalized. There are no others.

            We believe Obama on this because there was a birth announcement run in the Honolulu paper when he was born. That is kind of hard to fake. http://www.alextheberge.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/ObamaBirthStarBulletin.jpg

  • mrego

    …about Vice President Curtis. Was his US Citizenship enabled by the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 or was he acknowledged to be a natural born citizen based on birth location alone?

    • streiff

      his father was a US citizen.

  • Common_Cents

    Romney doesn’t have to get into birther stuff. But he can say, “America deserves to know the history of a Presidential candidate, I offer up my history, and challenge Baraka, Barry, Soeterro, Barack, Obama to do the same. ” The American voters deserve it.

    • scmom

      :)

  • calfcreek

    Barrack Hussein Obama, a supposed Harvard Law Constitutional Professor, thinks that a president can negotiate the terms of a bankruptcy in direct conflict with 200+ years of bankruptcy law, steal the assets of bond holders and give that equity to Unions. Is that Constitutional? A court even sided with him. Is that Constitutional?

    SCOTUS says that it is Constitutional to kill a child. Obama agrees and even says it is so even if the child is born alive, so it must be killed to preserve the mothers wish. Does that make it Constitutional? Life, Liberty…..It’s the first damn one!

    If you answer yes to either of the above questions, then the point is mute is it not? That means that we live in an oligarchy of a few judges and politicians. I suppose you are okay with that. I am not. I still believe that we live in a constitutional republic.

    • gekster

      The use of that is a sign of intelligence on this site.
      Can you pass the test.
      And just what are you saying, and to whome.

  • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

    I have been thus far content to sit back and let the words of my friends, namely streiff, Bill S, and acat, but there are others, here at RedState hold sway when it came to your arguments because I thought they were doing a fine enough job on their own, yet here you are persisting with your ignorance.

    I will not confess to the charges you allege because I have done nothing of the sort. I might as well demand an apology from you because of your misstatements and the fact that you continue to promulgate your misreading and ignorance despite the corrections of others. The fact that you have continued to do so leads me to conclude that there is a possibility of willful ignorance on your part, perhaps because you cannot fathom anything other than your point of view being true.

    First of all, the James Madison quote I provided in my original post ought to be sufficient in determining what the Founders thought was important to citizenship.

    Secondly, you, like the people I mentioned in my post, are apparently ignorant of the role English common law has played in the United States’ legal history.

    First of all, we have this passage from the eminent William Blackstone in his 1765 Commentaries:

    Natural-born subjects are such as are born within the dominions of the crown of England, that is, within the ligeance, or as it is generally called, the allegiance of the king; and aliens, such as are born out of it. Allegiance is the tie, or ligamen, which binds the subject to the king, in return for that protection which the king affords the subject. The thing itself, or substantial part of it, is founded in reason and the nature of government; the name and the form are derived to us from our Gothic ancestors.

    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_4_citizenships1.html

    Which meshes very well with Madison’s words.

    And we continue.

    The Constitution of Delaware of 1776 states the following:

    ART. 25. The common law of England, as-well as so much of the statute law as has been heretofore adopted in practice in this State, shall remain in force, unless they shall be altered by a future law of the legislature; such parts only excepted as are repugnant to the rights and privileges contained in this constitution, and the declaration of rights, &c., agreed to by this convention.

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/de02.asp#art25

    The Constitution of NJ from the same year:

    XXII. That the common law of England, as well as so much of the statute law, as have been heretofore practiced in this Colony, shall still remain in force, until they shall be altered by a future law of the Legislature; such parts only excepted, as are repugnant to the rights and privileges contained in this Charter; and that the inestimable right of trial by jury shall remain confirmed as a part of the law of this Colony, without repeal, forever.

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/nj15.asp

    New York’s Constitution of 1777:

    XXXV. And this convention doth further, in the name and by the authority of the good people of this State, ordain, determine, and declare that such parts of the common law of England, and of the statute law of England and Great Britain, and of the acts of the legislature of the colony of New York, as together did form the law of the said colony on the 19th day of April, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and seventy-five, shall be and continue the law of this State, subject to such alterations and provisions as the legislature of this State shall, from time to time, make concerning the same.

    http://www.nhinet.org/ccs/docs/ny-1777.htm

    The Northwest Ordinance of the Articles of Confederation:

    Art. 2. The inhabitants of the said territory shall always be entitled to the benefits of the writ of habeas corpus, and of the trial by jury; of a proportionate representation of the people in the legislature; and of judicial proceedings according to the course of the common law.

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/nworder.asp

    Virginia:

    ? 1-200. The common law.
    The common law of England, insofar as it is not repugnant to the principles of the Bill of Rights and Constitution of this Commonwealth, shall continue in full force within the same, and be the rule of decision, except as altered by the General Assembly.
    (Code 1919, ? 2, ? 1-10; 2005, c. 839.)

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+1-200

    ? 1-201. Acts of Parliament.
    The right and benefit of all writs, remedial and judicial, given by any statute or act of Parliament, made in aid of the common law prior to the fourth year of the reign of James the First, of a general nature, not local to England, shall still be saved, insofar as the same are consistent with the Bill of Rights and Constitution of this Commonwealth and the Acts of Assembly.
    (Code 1919, ? 3, ? 1-11; 2005, c. 839.)

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+1-201

    Granted those are from 1919, but here’s a 1776 statute from the same state:

    “And be it further ordained that the common law of England, all statutes or acts of parliament made in aid of the common law prior to the fourth year of the reign of King James the First, and which are of a general nature, not local to that kingdom, together with the several acts of the general assembly of this colony now in force, so far as the same may consist with the several ordinances, declarations and resolutions of the general convention, shall be the rule of decision, and shall be considered as in full force, until the same shall be altered by the legislative power of this colony.”

    http://books.google.com/books?id=FU0ZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA585&lpg=PA585&dq=%22And+be+it+further+ordained,+That+the+common+law+of+England%22&source=bl&ots=YpaurahoTr&sig=VG4lyc-S2GgLRPbG19mg8QJC4VM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6nC8T_3mKeLC2QW327HwCw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

    From North Carolina:

    ? 4?1. Common law declared to be in force.
    All such parts of the common law as were heretofore in force and use within this State, or so much of the common law as is not destructive of, or repugnant to, or inconsistent with, the freedom and independence of this State and the form of government therein established, and which has not been otherwise provided for in whole or in part, not abrogated, repealed, or become obsolete, are hereby declared to be in full force within this State. (1715, c. 5, ss. 2, 3, P.R.; 1778, c. 133, P.R.; R.C., c. 22; Code, s. 641; Rev., s. 932; C.S., s. 970.)

    http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_4/gs_4-1.html

    And I could go on and on.

    Also, any references to the law of nations in our Founding Fathers’ works ought to take into account that Blackstone himself wrote a chapter of his commentaries titled “Of Offenses Against the Law of Nations” http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/blackstone/bla-405.htm

    Also, there is nothing illegal or unconstitutional about Lynch v. Clarke. In fact, the SCOTUS cited it to support its decision in Wong Kim Ark (a decision your side loves to misinterpret). I will be getting to this in part II.

    Anyways, all of this is probably spending more time on you than I really ought to, but I know there are many out there who are of like mind to you in these matters. I know well, that they might not listen, but I feel it necessary to say something regardless.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      It’s one of the benefits of following the rules.

    • acat

      Hate to see this much work go to waste.

      Mew

      • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake W

        Heh.

        • wadewade

          If Hamilton wrote (June 18, 1787) “No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a citizen of one of the States or hereafter be born a citizen of the United States.”.

          Why did John Jay feel compelled to write George Washington and request he strengthen it?

          John Jay – Letter to Washington (25 Jul 1787) “Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen. ”

          Isn’t “Born a citizen” equivalent to Natural Born or Native Born by your definition above? Why the need to change it? Either it’s a third class of citizen, or a different meaning. I believe John Jay was widely regarded also.

          • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake Walker

            First of all, it is possible to be a citizen without being “natural born”. This of course, is obvious.

            I don’t think Jay and Hamilton’s words ought to be viewed together as a specific comparison. If nothing else, the latter’s original plan was never actually submitted to the Constitutional Convention. (And, as a side note, there is no evidence of any debate over Jay’s letter at the convention, either).

            Jay’s letter clearly reveals that he was concerned with the possibility of foreigners ascending to the office of the Presidency. It is natural to want to safeguard the Presidency against foreign intrigues. Thus, a citizen must be American by birth, and not naturalized.

          • wadewade

            You have produced many good research quotations I was not aware of. I read in one ruling, that there is much disagreement on who is and who isn’t a “natural born citizen”. You have quoted only those that seem to subscribe to two classes of citizen Natural Born and Naturalized. Are there any quotation from those on the other side? This theory of the Naturalized, Native, Natural Born, didn’t just appear in a Hilary Supporter’s head in 2008, it’s been going on for a while. Even Obama commented on it, in an early interview.

            I think a lot of the problem birthers have, and I’m never critical of those that ask questions and demand proof (actually more critical of those that shout others questions down), is that there is this huge difference in what people “smart people” believe Natural Born Citizen means. Many simply believe it’s not “defined law” by the highest court in the land. Many simply wish the Supreme Court to hear the argument, and simply rule. I think you’d be surprised how many would accept a Supreme Court ruling as law. And, this never ending battle between legal researchers would end in the eyes of many, or at least be relegated to to the academia. At the very least, there would be a ruling to point at and say here, this is the “current definition”, live with it. In many people’s minds, all of the books and quotations and state / colony laws and state rulings and lawyers boasting means nothing, until the Supreme Court has defined it. Then it’s a matter of arguing over a threshold great enough, to get you heard once again in the supreme court.

            A lot of people didn’t get “concerned” until the courts started handing out “lack of standing” rulings. And quo warranto by rightfully concerned citizens seemed to be disallowed. The handling of this affair by The President, Congress, the Courts, and the Supreme Court, have people looking for the source of the smoke they smell.

          • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake Walker

            Which should be up this weekend if everything goes well for me.

            Also, your reasonableness is appreciated. :)

          • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake Walker

            Just to clarify.

          • wadewade

            [First of all, it is possible to be a citizen without being ?natural born?. This of course, is obvious.]

            But, is it possible to be “born a citizen” without being a “natural born”? I would be correct assuming a “born a citizen” can not be naturalized back to birth.

            Yes, it was not debated, but the wording eerily changed to exactly what he ask Washington to do. And, it’s pretty obvious Washington liked Jay enough to make sure he make sure he was the First Chief Justice, and (President of the Continental Congress, ambassador etc) . It is strange that no one discussed it though. But, it did change, and it’s never been attributed to Hamilton that I know of.

          • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake Walker

            I quoted this in my earlier post. It’s from Blackstone’s 1765 commentaries, and it meshes nicely with the Madison quote in my original post:

            Natural-born subjects are such as are born within the dominions of the crown of England, that is, within the ligeance, or as it is generally called, the allegiance of the king; and aliens, such as are born out of it. Allegiance is the tie, or ligamen, which binds the subject to the king, in return for that protection which the king affords the subject. The thing itself, or substantial part of it, is founded in reason and the nature of government; the name and the form are derived to us from our Gothic ancestors.

            Of course, “subjects” would not be something to call the people of a nation that had just thrown off a king, so substitute “citizens” for American usage.

          • seacub

            But like you, I’m wondering how he’ll make that distinction between born citizen and natural born as different. Your point with Hamilton, John Jay and Washington is hard to argue. Although the vast majority of his sources are legal opinions, Minor came after everything listed here (including the 14th amendment) and Supreme Court opinion trumps all preceding opinion (hence the reason for the court) and so I’ll be waiting patiently to see how that is presented. If the Supreme Court felt the need to weigh in on this now, they could easily define it currently and our opinions and all previous opinions would be moot.

  • wadewade

    I’m enjoying the read.

  • constitutional

    I don’t care what you’ve said, but I damn know I agree with it, because I’m quite confident you know more about history than me.

    To those opposing you, I have this:

  • 1stRichard

    I had more expectations of original intent, and in the debates thereof, besides jus soli or jus sanguinis, most glaringly omitted?

    ?It has been wittily observed that the Constitution has married the President and Senate has made them man and wife? Ratifying Convention June 18, 1788 Mason. ?The qualifications proposed? a more advanced age and a longer period of citizenship from those of representatives thoroughly weaned from the prepossessions and habits incident to foreign birth and education…? Federalist No. 62.

    Forgoing the distain of the ?well-born? assigning meanings, ?jurisdiction? and ?allegiance? has the most ?natural? intent in volume and length on to the jurisdiction clause. In recognition of this being a start, this may be too early to quote the volumes thereof and anticipate more of the original intent. I must however make an objection to any color added by the body judicial but refrain rebuttal until all is written.

    ?And for the record?, this makes me think of a birth of another, a ?Know Nothing Party? in this controversy

  • johnwoodman

    And a couple of comments:

    1. You said: “There is no real explanation that I can find as to why the Committee of Eleven changed the phrase to its present form, but it was.”

    The Committee of Eleven didn’t actually change it, they simply implemented it — for the first time.

    Hamilton’s wording was never on the table. It was not in his June 18th presentation to the convention (which spoke of a “Governour” and not a “President”). It appeared only in his private notes which were given to James Madison at the end of the Constitutional Convention.

    There were 55 delegates to the Convention, and only 2 men inside or outside of the Convention known to have specifically wanted a birth qualification for the Executive: Alexander Hamilton and John Jay.

    It also seems clear from the timing of his letter right after the Convention took up the Presidency that John Jay, 2 to 3 days’ ride away up in New York, must have had an inside contact who was feeding him information on the secret proceedings. There is only one likely candidate for this person — the one remaining New York delegate who had tried unsuccessfully to get Jay into the Convention.

    Hamilton.

    John Jay and Alexander Hamilton were good friends and close associates. It seems very likely to me from all that we know, that Hamilton and Jay discussed the provisions for Presidential eligibility on one of Hamilton’s very frequent trips back to New York City, and that Jay then sent the letter to General Washington which prompted the Convention to adopt the qualification.

    I’ve written an entire article on this at my blog site, ObamaBirthBook.com.

    2. You said: “In one of [James Madison's] papers, dated the 22 May, 1789, he wrote the following :”

    That quote on allegiance/ citizenship from Madison actually comes not from a paper written by him, but by a speech given by Madison in the House of Representatives, in answer to Dr. David Ramsay’s sore-loser challenge to the eligibility of the man who had beaten him for Representative — William Loughton Smith.

    The Congressional Record of this speech can be found at:

    http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llac&fileName=001/llac001.db&recNum=211

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