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English Common Law and American Law (A Digression)

Promoted from Diaries.

This post is based upon a comment I made on my earlier post. The person I was originally replying to was banned before I could hit send. I hadn’t intended to write this as a diary post originally, but at the suggestion of acat (and a little inkling I had while writing the comment as well), I am going to post it here with a little extra elaboration. I don’t plan on making this as thorough as Part I, but I would like to lay these things out. This isn’t my planned Part II. Rather, it is a digression to explain some things.

To help us understand the meaning of the phrase “natural born citizen” in the United States Constitution, let us look at what James Madison, who was the “author” of the work, had to say (quote is from Part I):

It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other.

22 May 1789Papers 12:179–82

Now, let us compare this meaning with two sources. The first is Emerich de Vattel’s definition from his book The Law of Nations:

“The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”

The second is this passage from William Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England, dated 1765:

Natural-born subjects are such as are born within the dominions of the crown of England, that is, within the ligeance, or as it is generally called, the allegiance of the king; and aliens, such as are born out of it. Allegiance is the tie, or ligamen, which binds the subject to the king, in return for that protection which the king affords the subject. The thing itself, or substantial part of it, is founded in reason and the nature of government; the name and the form are derived to us from our Gothic ancestors.

1:354, 357–58, 361–62

If you’re like me, have eyes, are not blinder than a Texas cave salamander, and possess a brain capable of intelligent thought, you can see that Madison and Blackstone’s thoughts go very well together. This shouldn’t come as a surprise. William Blackstone is the most cited English source by the Founding Fathers, and he is third overall, behind St. Paul (secular nation–what?) and Montesquieu. The Online Liberty Fund has the list here. Emerich de Vattel comes in at a puny 29th, right below Niccolo Machiavelli (nice company there).

The Texas Cave Salamander: Blind, hard of hearing, and doesn't hold up well in sunlight. An excellent visual representation of Birthers

While the fact that Madison is the author of the Constitution ought to therefore put any debate over this clause to an end, Birthers, as I implied above, aren’t known for their intelligence, so we continue.

Birthers have also quoted this statement from George Mason in Virginia’s Convention to ratify the Constitution:

The common law of England is not the common law of these states.

But let’s look at the fuller context of the quote:

If, in the course of an unsuccessful…war, we should be compelled to give up part of our territories, or undergo subjugation if the general government could not make a treaty to give up such a part for the preservation of the residue, the government itself, and consequently the rights of the people, must fall. Such a power must, therefore, rest somewhere. For ray own part, I never heard it denied that such a power must be vested in the government. Our complaint is, that it is not sufficiently guarded, and that it requires much more solemnity and caution than are delineated in that system. It is more guarded in England. Will any gentleman undertake to say that the king, by his prerogative, can dismember the British empire? Could the king give Portsmouth to France? He could not do this without an express act of Parliament — without the consent of the legislature in all its branches. There are other things which the king cannot do, which may be done by the President and Senate in this case. Could the king, by his prerogative, enable foreign subjects to purchase lands, and have an hereditary indefeasible title? This would require an express act of Parliament.

Though the king can make treaties, yet he cannot make a treaty contrary to the constitution of his country. Where did their constitution originate? It is founded on a number of maxims, which, by long time, are rendered sacred and inviolable.Where are there such maxims in the American Constitution? In that country, which we formerly called our mother country, they have had, for many centuries, certain fundamental maxims, which have secured their persons and properties, and prevented a dismemberment of their country. The common law, sir, has prevented the power of the crown from destroying the immunities of the people. We are placed in a still better condition — in a more favorable situation than perhaps any people ever were before. We have it in our power to secure our liberties and happiness on the most unshaken, firm, and permanent basis. We can establish what government we please. But by that paper* we are consolidating the United States into one great government, and trusting to constructive security. You will find no such thing in the English government.The common law of England is not the common law of these states. I conceive, therefore, that there is nothing in that Constitution to hinder a dismemberment of the empire.

*=The attendants of this convention frequently referred to the Constitution as “that paper”.

So, Mr. Mason is comparing the Constitution of the United States negatively with the common law and the English Constitution. This should not be surprising, given that he was an Anti-Federalist.

And they neglect as well what others in attendance at the convention had to say. Mason’s fellow Anti-Federalist Patrick Henry’s asserted on Monday, June 16, 1788:

When our government was first instituted in Virginia, we declared the common law of England to be in force.

That system of law which has been admired, and has protected us and our ancestors, is excluded by that system. Added to this, we adopted a bill of rights. By this Constitution, some of the best barriers of human rights are thrown away. Is there not an additional reason to have a bill of rights? By the ancient common law, the trial of all facts is decided by a jury of impartial men from the immediate vicinage. This paper speaks of different juries from the common law in criminal cases; and in civil controversies…excludes trial by jury altogether. There is, therefore, more occasion for the supplementary check of a bill of rights now than then. Congress, from their general, powers, may fully go into business of human legislation. They may legislate, in criminal cases, from treason to the lowest offence — petty larceny. They may define crimes and prescribe punishments. In the definition of crimes, I trust they will be directed by what wise representatives ought to be governed by. But when we come to punishments, no latitude ought to be left, nor dependence put on the virtue of representatives. What says our bill of rights? — “that excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.” Are you not, therefore, now calling on those gentlemen who are to compose Congress, to prescribe trials and define punishments without this control? Will they find sentiments there similar to this bill of rights? You let them loose; you do more you depart from the genius of your country. That paper tells you that the trial of crimes shall be by jury, and held in the state where the crime shall have been committed. Under this extensive provision, they may proceed in a manner extremely dangerous to liberty: a person accused may be carried from one extremity of the state to another, and be tried, not by an impartial jury of the vicinage, acquainted with his character and the circumstances of the fact, but by a jury unacquainted with both, and who may be biased against him. Is not this sufficient to alarm men? How different is this from the immemorial practice of your British ancestors, and your own! I need not tell you that, by the common law, a number of hundredors were required on a jury, and that afterwards it was sufficient if the jurors came from the same county. With less than this the people of England have never been satisfied. That paper ought to have declared the common law in force.

In this business of legislation, your members of Congress will loose the restriction of not imposing excessive fines, demanding excessive bail, and inflicting cruel and unusual punishments. These are prohibited by your declaration of rights. What has distinguished our ancestors? — That they would not admit of tortures, or cruel and barbarous punishment. But Congress may introduce the practice of the civil law, in preference to that of the common law.

George Nicholas said in a reply (it should be noted that it begins sarcastically) that same day:

But, sir, this Constitution is defective because the common…law is not declared to be in force! What would have been the consequence if it had? It would be immutable. But now [the common law] can be changed or modified as the legislative body may find necessary for the community. But the common law is not excluded. There is nothing in that paper to warrant the assertion.

Nicholas isn’t just some random guy, either. He was a member of the Virginia House of Delegates, attorney general of Kentucky, and a friend of Madison. He was also apparently known as a rather rotund person. Madison, it is said, laughed until he cried at the same convention when someone called Mr. Nicholas a “plum pudding with legs”.

And then there are what are known as reception statutes, some incorporated into state Constitutions, some not.

The Constitution of Delaware of 1776 states the following:

ART. 25. The common law of England, as-well as so much of the statute law as has been heretofore adopted in practice in this State, shall remain in force, unless they shall be altered by a future law of the legislature; such parts only excepted as are repugnant to the rights and privileges contained in this constitution, and the declaration of rights, &c., agreed to by this convention.

The Constitution of New Jersey from the same year:

XXII. That the common law of England, as well as so much of the statute law, as have been heretofore practiced in this Colony, shall still remain in force, until they shall be altered by a future law of the Legislature; such parts only excepted, as are repugnant to the rights and privileges contained in this Charter; and that the inestimable right of trial by jury shall remain confirmed as a part of the law of this Colony, without repeal, forever.

New York’s Constitution of 1777:

XXXV. And this convention doth further, in the name and by the authority of the good people of this State, ordain, determine, and declare that such parts of the common law of England, and of the statute law of England and Great Britain, and of the acts of the legislature of the colony of New York, as together did form the law of the said colony on the 19th day of April, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and seventy-five, shall be and continue the law of this State, subject to such alterations and provisions as the legislature of this State shall, from time to time, make concerning the same.

The Northwest Ordinance of the Articles of Confederation:

Art. 2. The inhabitants of the said territory shall always be entitled to the benefits of the writ of habeas corpus, and of the trial by jury; of a proportionate representation of the people in the legislature; and of judicial proceedings according to the course of the common law.

Virginia’s current legal code states the following:

§ 1-200. The common law.
The common law of England, insofar as it is not repugnant to the principles of the Bill of Rights and Constitution of this Commonwealth, shall continue in full force within the same, and be the rule of decision, except as altered by the General Assembly.
(Code 1919, § 2, § 1-10; 2005, c. 839.)

And:

§ 1-201. Acts of Parliament.
The right and benefit of all writs, remedial and judicial, given by any statute or act of Parliament, made in aid of the common law prior to the fourth year of the reign of James the First, of a general nature, not local to England, shall still be saved, insofar as the same are consistent with the Bill of Rights and Constitution of this Commonwealth and the Acts of Assembly.
(Code 1919, § 3, § 1-11; 2005, c. 839.)

Granted those are from 1919, but here’s a 1776 statute from the same state (admittedly, I cannot find the original legal code from 1776, but this shows up repeatedly in other sources demonstrating what a reception statute is):

“And be it further ordained that the common law of England, all statutes or acts of parliament made in aid of the common law prior to the fourth year of the reign of King James the First, and which are of a general nature, not local to that kingdom, together with the several acts of the general assembly of this colony now in force, so far as the same may consist with the several ordinances, declarations and resolutions of the general convention, shall be the rule of decision, and shall be considered as in full force, until the same shall be altered by the legislative power of this colony.”

From North Carolina’s legal code:

§ 4-1. Common law declared to be in force.
All such parts of the common law as were heretofore in force and use within this State, or so much of the common law as is not destructive of, or repugnant to, or inconsistent with, the freedom and independence of this State and the form of government therein established, and which has not been otherwise provided for in whole or in part, not abrogated, repealed, or become obsolete, are hereby declared to be in full force within this State. (1715, c. 5, ss. 2, 3, P.R.; 1778, c. 133, P.R.; R.C., c. 22; Code, s. 641; Rev., s. 932; C.S., s. 970.)

And this is not limited to the thirteen colonies either.

From California’s code section 22.2:

22.2. The common law of England, so far as it is not repugnant to or inconsistent with the Constitution of the United States, or the Constitution or laws of this State, is the rule of decision in all the courts of this State.

From Missouri’s legal code, section 1.010:

Common law in force–effect on statutes.
1.010. The common law of England and all statutes and acts of parliament made prior to the fourth year of the reign of James the First, of a general nature, which are not local to that kingdom and not repugnant to or inconsistent with the Constitution of the United States, the constitution of this state, or the statute laws in force for the time being, are the rule of action and decision in this state, any custom or usage to the contrary notwithstanding, but no act of the general assembly or law of this state shall be held to be invalid, or limited in its scope or effect by the courts of this state, for the reason that it is in derogation of, or in conflict with, the common law, or with such statutes or acts of parliament; but all acts of the general assembly, or laws, shall be liberally construed, so as to effectuate the true intent and meaning thereof.

I could go on and on (after all, every state but Louisiana uses English common law as the basis of its institutions), but I believe this should be sufficient.

To accompany Mr. Nicholas’s quote from earlier, I think this might help illuminate the role of the common law in the United States, especially until the end of the 19th century:

The common law of England is not to be taken in all respects to be that of America. Our ancestors brought with them and adopted only that portion which was applicable to their situation.

–Justice Joseph Story, Van Ness v. Pacard

Somewhat unrelated to the rest of this post, but still relevant to my earlier posting, I’d like to point this out: any references to the law of nations in our Founding Fathers’ works ought to take into account that Blackstone himself wrote a chapter of his commentaries titled “Of Offenses Against the Law of Nations”.

Part II will be up as soon as I finish it.

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COMMENTS

  • vnov5

    I wanted to thank you again for your well researched postings. There is a warning for you at the bottom of this comment.

    I’ve been pondering this birther business lately – not for the sake of any of its arguments, but from an interest in the psychological implications of the thought process of its adherents. Its followers are often not as stupid as you would imagine, but they do take information in and process it very differently than most rational people. While hatred and ignorance certainly play a part, “birthers” have an information process that is mostly closely associated with paranoid schizophrenia – nit-picking facts that support irrational ideas without examining either the implications of those ideas nor the overwhelmingly countervailing facts against their idea (e.g. airplane contrails are a government program to spray the population) – nor the accuracy of the “supporting” facts as presented.

    If someone told any rational person that the President and countless persons around him are in a massive conspiracy to commit the greatest fraud in world history, they would greet that assertion with some skepticism – and any “supporting facts” as highly dubious. Yet for birthers, it is perfectly rational. And when the rational person is told, for instance, that Obama’s mother stole a SSN from someone who had recently died, and they had the slightest concern about that as a fact, they would go to Snopes or Politifact and see what the fact checkers had turned up (it is totally false). For a birther – it fits so there is no questioning the accuracy.

    Warning: The problem for your project and you, is that you cannot fix crazy thought with rational argument – that is what makes it crazy.

  • vnov5

    I submit the comments from Calfcreek to your original post as Exhibit A.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      We can’t argue with crazy, and globowarmos are crazy.

      Especially lying crazies who pretend to be ‘moderates’.

  • angryguy77

    John Bingham, aka ?father of the 14th Amendment?, was an abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln?s assassins. Ten years earlier, he stated on the House floor:

    ?All from other lands, who by the terms of [congressional] laws and a compliance with their provisions become naturalized, are adopted citizens of the United States; all other persons born within the Republic, of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty, are natural born citizens. Gentleman can find no exception to this statement touching natural-born citizens except what is said in the Constitution relating to Indians.? (Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 1639 (1862))

    http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/justice-hugo-black-in-duncan-v-louisiana-indicates-obama-would-not-be-eligible-ineligibility-echoed-by-former-attorney-general-jeremiah-black/

    • vnov5

      Where to begin?
      1. As legislative history goes, the comments of a congressman (even the sponsor of the bill) on the floor is not very good, but it is – today – immaterial (unless you are engaged in hypothetical histories).

      2. In the U.S., the law regarding who is a citizen from birth is below. Obama is a citizen from birth (I know the desparate racists/birthers/tin foil hat salemen want to argue this is different than “natural born”) under (a) and (d) if you have some question about Hawaii being a state.

      The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
      (a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
      (b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;
      (c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;
      (d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
      (e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;
      (f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;
      (g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person
      (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
      (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and
      (h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.

      The web page you got this quotation from should sell tin hats. Its argument is that even though Obama was born in Hawaii AND his mother was a U.S. citizen, he still is not a “natural born Citizen” under Article II because his father was acitizen of a British colony and the laws of Britian at the time made Obama a dual citizen. On that:
      1. The fact that the laws of another country also recognized Obama as a citizen are irrelevant to U.S. law (by way of example – let’s say China needed more women and declared that all U.S. women were now China citizens as well – no children born in the future could be President);
      2. By never swearing loyalty to Kenya before 1983, Obama lost his dual citizenship
      3. The 14th Amendment doesn’t use the phrase “natural born Citizen” from Article II – it says “born or naturalized in the United States” so the whole line of by being born in a circumstance where two countries would recognize them as citizens does not matter – even under the 14th Amendment, Obama was born in the United States.
      4. This line of bogus reasoning would render citizens born into dual citizenship a third type of semi-citizen outside the 14th Amendment’s protections – they would neither be “natural born Citizens” (again not the phrase under the 14th Amendment) nor naturalized citizens (we don’t have a process for naturalizing citizens who already are citizens under the law). That would be an odd situation if it were somewhere outside of wackoland. The phrase in the 14th Amendment, “born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” was suppose to encompass – and thus protect – all U.S. citizens (natural born and naturalized). There is no third category of “natural born Citizen.”

      • angryguy77

        Hugo Black used it as a definition also.

        To me, the people who are against questioning Obama’s legal status are acting like the the climate change believers. The argument is apparently closed no matter what kind of evidence there is to the contrary.

        There is room to debate this issue without calling the other side crazy etc. I realize labeling is a tactic used by liberals, but as conservatives, we are supposed to win on ideas, not emotion.

        Btw “natural born” is used in sec 1.

        • vnov5

          The quotation you referenced came from a line of reasoning that began with Black saying he though Bingham was a good source for addressing ambiguity in part of the 14th Amendment. Bingham’s quotation came from the House floor. The point is that the 14th Amendment phrase at issue: “born or naturalized . . ” was not the “natural born” language from Section 1 (you are right).

          I am not against questioning anything – I am against people who cannot accept the truth when it is presented to them repeatedly – a Republican appointed official in Hawaii stated under oath that the President was born in Hawaii, that he had veiwed the birth certificate and it was authentic. That should have been the end of it (especially given the news articles from the same time). If this was George Bush – or any white guy with an Anglo name – nobody would have thought for two seconds about it thereafter. This IS about the fact that the President is black and has a funny name. Sorry.
          Also: Please – everyone uses labels (read the comments on this blog sometime)

        • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake Walker

          I’ll do my best to get to these things.

          However, I would like to point out that if you treat my arguments and me personally with respect, I’ll do my best to return the favor.

          If you come at me like a raving lunatic, I will treat you accordingly.

      • dilligas

        TITLE 8 – ALIENS AND NATIONALITY
        CHAPTER 12 – IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY
        SUBCHAPTER III – NATIONALITY AND NATURALIZATION
        Part I – Nationality at Birth and Collective Naturalization

        -HEAD-
        Sec. 1405. Persons born in Hawaii

        -STATUTE-
        A person born in Hawaii on or after August 12, 1898, and before
        April 30, 1900, is declared to be a citizen of the United States as of April 30, 1900. A person born in Hawaii on or after April 30, 1900, is a citizen of the United States at birth. A person who was a citizen of the Republic of Hawaii on August 12, 1898, is declared to be a citizen of the United States as of April 30, 1900.

        ,,,,

        This statute actually eliminates the “subject to the jusrisdiction” aspect.

        • dilligas

          -SOURCE-
          (June 27, 1952, ch. 477, title III, ch. 1, Sec. 305, 66 Stat. 237.)

    • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake Walker

      NT.

  • franklee

    VNOV5:
    Contrary to your ridiculous claims, birthers have repeatedly cited evidence supporting their position.
    1. The U.S. Supreme Court opinion cited is Minor v. Happersett from 1875 defined ?natural-born citizen? as a person born to two parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the natural-born citizen?s birth.
    http://www.wnd.com/2012/01/court-obama-must-be-constitutionally-eligible/

    2. For New Jersey court contest in regards to Barack Obama?s eligibility to be on the state?s ballot. Obama?s lawyer, Attorney Alexandra Hill, of the Newark-based law firm Genova, Burn and Giantomasi, admitted that the image of Obama?s birth certificate was a forgery and made the absurd claim that, therefore, it cannot be used as evidence to confirm his lack of natural born citizenship status. http://frontporchpolitics.com/2012/04/barack-obamas-lawyer-admits-birth-certificate-is-forged/

    3. The Birth Certificate released by Obama?s legal team 4 days before he was to provide it to a court was shown to be a forgery by no less than 20 expert forensics analysts. And it has the same file number as that of Virginia Sunahara.
    http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/obamas-real-actual-birth-certificate-released-really-not-a-joke-this-time/

    4. E-verify can not find a match between Obama?s names and the Social Security Number he is using.
    http://www.obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2011/09/taitz-v-astrue-motion-for.html

    5. Several characteristics of Obama?s Selective Service application and card show evidence of forgery.
    http://www.debbieschlussel.com/4428/exclusive-did-next-commander-in-chief-falsify-selective-service-registration-never-actually-register-obamas-draft-registration-raises-serious-questions/

    If either you or the author are going to claim superior knowledge or intelligence, you are going to have to solidly refute the evidence provided by the birthers and provide some evidence supporting your position, neither of which you have done.

    Until this happens there is no reason to consider either or you to be any more knowledgeable than an irrational Texas cave salamander.

    • vnov5

      I thought you folks would be coming out soon enough. Look – I really don’t want to waste my time with you folks. All I ask is that you spend a little time on the Google – its in the internet pipes – seeing if the information you have been fed by like minded people stands up to the factual demands of the sane population:

      All of you supporting evidence you provide can be debunked in 15 minutes of surfing – for instance:

      Hill: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/ineligible.asp

      Number http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2012/01/another-1961-certificate-number/

      I also respectfully suggest that it is the population of persons accusing our President (no matter who he is) of treason, fraud, etc. who must carry the burden of proof on this matter.

      You do realize that the conspiracy you are suggesting would involve so many people over such a long time – literally before Obama was born – that it would never work?

      Answer me this: If they planned so damn hard for this baby to be President why did they name him Barack Hussein?

      • angryguy77

        Chester Arthur’s opponents talk about his father not being a naturalized citizen by the time he was born when he was running for POTUS? If it didn’t matter, why would they bring it up?

        Why are his college records sealed?

        See there are a lot of questions and this isn’t an open or shut case.

        I’d also like for you to look at this example and tell me what you think:

        Assume that a person born to a foreign father and American mother never renounces his or her U.S. citizenship, but instead of living in the U.S. his or her whole life, was spirited away to the U.K. by his father over the objections of his U.S. citizen mother, spends his or her entire childhood there, becones an adult there, and during adulthood, is elected to parliament, eventually being named a Knight of the Realm by Queen Elizabeth II. He or she then returns to the United States for the required period of residency, and runs for president when finally eligible based on the well-known age and residency requirements, and wins by a wide margin.

        Of course this is an extreme example, but do you think the founders would say this person would be qualified to be pres?

        • vnov5

          Your example does not mention the place of birth. If it was in the U.S. then that established citizenship at birth as U.S. If it was on foreign soil, then the mother’s citizenship did the same. Assuming you are talking about this example taking place today:

          As a U.S. citizen from birth, a person respected enough to be a Knight of the Realm and to be elected by a wide margin here, still a U.S. citizen and having lived here for over 14 years – I think the founding fathers would have had no problem with that person being President. Until the early 1900′s they would have probably wanted this person to renounce their dual citizenship – but as that is not a constitutional requirement, they would have had heated debate about that question.

        • vnov5

          On Chester: http://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2009/10/14/president-chester-a-arthur-and-the-birthers-1880%E2%80%99s-style/

          Bottome line – in 1829, if CAA was born in Canada (not Vermont where he claims to have been born), then citizenship would have passed ONLY through his father (and Irishman at that time). There was a debate about his birth place.

          There was NO DEBATE that if CAA was born in Vermont that he was a natural born citizen.

          Today, either parent’s U.S. citizenry can establish U.S. citizenry of the child at birth.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      I’m happy finally to be home, and you’re banned.

      • texasref

        ;-)

        • gekster

          Whith you it’s hard to tell.

        • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

          That’s why I’m complimenting him by giving the Soviet Elvis’s music an airing. :)

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            I love that he’s still at it.

          • texasref

            Someone who has been through life and sees the fun of it…turning a dispute with his lyricist into an opportunity to be creatively happy. We should all be like him.

  • Viet71

    The question is purely legal.

    Is Obama a “natural born citizen” or not?

    The answer is not, if he’s naturalized. The answer is yes, IMO as a lawyer, if he was a U.S. citizen at birth.

    I despise Obama. But you muddy the waters with your historical rant.

    • http://jakespeaks.wordpress.com/ Jake Walker

      Mostly to explain something the birthers love to harp on.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      There is context. It was even on the front page.

  • dilligas

    May I humbly suggest a less confrontational tone – attempting to ridicule the other side is not very endearing if you truly wish to ever convince them over to your side. It would also help in your effort to persuade people that are truly undecided on the issue.

    It is a legal question that is, in some ways, both answered and unanswered at the same time. Answered in that no one has been legally allowed to challenge the eligibilty – which implies it is acceptable; but it really remains to be a question that is currently unanswered as no court has given a definitive answer. (Yes, there are cases that can be read to give credence to both sides, but none that directly answer the question and define a “natural born citizen”.)

    It does appears that you are very well researched in this matter – I’d love to see a debate between you and Leo Donofrio. I think it would be quite educational – and likely change minds of people on both sides.

    I would also recommend addressing more of the compelling points made by those that support the 2 citizen parent aspect – not just ignore or dismiss them.

    I look forward to part 2.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      1. Birthers are beneath debating

      2. None of their points are compelling. They’re made up and stupid.