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A New Day in Libya: Brief Thoughts on What Happened and What to Watch For


This weekend brought good news for those who have lived under the oppressive regime of Moammar Qaddafi for all or part of his 42 year reign of terror, as the dress-wearing perma-Colonel and his regime have been largely overthrown after a months-long civil war.   As has been noted across the international affairs-sphere over the course of the last 24 hours, the toppling of Qaddafi’s regime is not the end of Libya’s challenges, but merely a preliminary accomplishment in what will likely be a long, hard slog toward self-determination and, hopefully, national security, stability, and success.

In a statement this afternoon, President Obama took credit on NATO’s behalf for playing a significant role in this development, and called on Libya to pave a way forward that is “peaceful, inclusive, and just,” and which relies on a peaceful settling of differences rather than on reprisals for justice.  Though these admonitions will likely make little difference to those on the ground in North Africa, they are correct: Libya’s future will hinge on how the aftermath of Qaddafi’s overthrow, and its accompanying unifying euphoria, is handled by the citizenry and by those who are currently carrying the guns.

Though I’m admittedly not an expert on Libya itself, I’d like to address a couple issues of note (out of many) below the fold.

The quick end to what had been a protracted civil war was in part the result of NATO’s increased ISR (intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance) effort, offensive operations, and the placing of (non-American) boots on the ground.  It should be no surprise that more assets and effort provided the largely disorganized, inexperienced rebels with a boost, and the addition of ground forces even in the smallest of numbers provided training (and likely targeting) opportunities that simply weren’t there when NATO’s entire share of the campaign was being conducted from the air.  The results of this NATO push have, in turn, led some to question why such allied involvement did not come sooner, and in far greater force, than it originally did (others, as might be expected, have championed Qaddafi’s toppling as vindication of President Obama’s knuckleheaded “leading from behind” strategy).  This is a delicate issue, and one which can only be addressed as a hypothetical.

While the timing of the UN’s and NATO’s involvement likely could not have been changed due to the lack of political will for intervention that existed prior to Qaddafi’s move on Benghazi itself, the dictates of the UN resolution, which called not for regime change but for the protection of civilians, put NATO on shaky ground from the beginning.  The result was extremely muddled communication about operations Odyssey Dawn and Unified Protector, as well as a lack of clarity about what exactly NATO was trying to accomplish in Libya.  Was it solely the protection of civilians, as the UN resolution expressly stated, or was it the removal of Qaddafi’s regime?  For the past several months, NATO has appeared to be trying to have it both ways, with the result being – as may be expected – that neither task was being done well.  Even a willingness to deploy a force of forward observers (primarily Air Force JTACs, working as members of small special operations teams, such as Special Forces ODAs, the French equivalent of which may have been present later in the conflict) could have made a big difference in target selection and accuracy, as well as in protecting civilians on the ground – the raison d’etre of NATO’s involvement in Libya.

Though a lack of ground involvement by NATO forces for much of this civil war inarguably increased its duration, and arguably led to more civilian deaths than there may have been had ground forces been present (bearing in mind that the UNSCR authorizing action in Libya did not authorize the deployment of an “occupation force), there is a case to be made that the way the civil war played out was positive in its own right (in the macro, of course, and excepting such obvious negatives as the significant civilian deaths that resulted from the fighting, as well as the atrocities committed by members of the rebel coalition).  First, five months of fighting allowed members of the coalition, the vast majority of whom were thoroughly green when the battle began, to become relatively seasoned fighters who learned resilience in the heat of combat (if not the discipline and tactical knowledge that accompanies – and defines – professional soldiery).  Second, the lengthy battle and the peripheral participation by NATO has allowed the Libyans to own this victory, and to own its aftermath as well.  The “Pottery Barn Rule” applies here to a degree, particularly on the part of the European states that provided the most military support for the rebels (and who are the most economically dependent on Libya’s oil resources), but there is a significant difference between steamrolling through a foreign state, toppling its regime, and then asking for thanks while leaving much of the cleanup to its residents, and allowing the domestic opposition to do much of the “breaking” itself.  The central role the Libyan opposition played in the overthrow of Qaddafi will hopefully encourage them to take complete ownership of the results and the aftermath, and compel them to build a state in the image of that which they desired under Qaddafi, rather than that in which they lived under Qaddafi.

Finally, the length of the engagement allowed the opposition time to grow from a disorganized hodge-podge of Libyans who were bound only by their opposition to Qaddafi and his murderous regime, into a more organized, cohesive body that was able to promote and adopt more a more strategic outlook on the conflict itself, while also laying a foundation for its aftermath.  Had NATO intervened in force, ending Qaddafi’s reign in the “days, not weeks” that President Obama foolishly promised when advising the American people of his decision to take part in this “kinetic military action” a week after the first Tomahawks had been launched, the result may well have been far more chaotic.  Instead, months of stalemate provided the succeeding coalition with time to become more of a coalition, and to lay the groundwork for what comes next.  Whether that groundwork, and the coalition which laid it while fighting with NATO support to oust Qaddafi, is sufficient to hold up in the aftermath of this war remains to be seen.  Below, I discuss in very brief detail some (but by no means all) of the issues which will bear watching during that “what comes next” phase of Libya’s quest for liberation and autonomy.

One of the initial issues to look for going forward in Libya is, as Joshua Tucker termed it, the “Insiders vs. Outsiders” dynamic.  This begins in the immediate aftermath of the governmental overthrow: how will the conquering force and the public at large treat regime officials, Qaddafi family members, and those who are viewed as being guilty by association with, or are suspected of supporting, the ousted regime?  History provides plenty of examples of how not to handle a transition, with the de-Ba’athification of Iraq serving as a recent example, and others coming from elsewhere in time an geography (thanks to Mr. Dickens’ illustrative writing, the Reign of Terror which  capped the events of the French Revolution come to mind as a particularly visual example of how not to handle a popular transition).  Will the eager, victorious rebels and their popular supporters spend time, treasure, and what goodwill they’ve presently amassed in an effort to track down and punish those who supported (or who they suspect to have been supporters of) the previous regime, or will they exercise judicious restraint in the aftermath of their success, offering second chances to those who had been on the wrong side of the civil war, and providing due process to those who held out?  Additionally, what other scores will be seen as ripe for settling once the common enemy has been completely eliminated?

This underscores the need to create institutions equipped to handle grievances and other legal matters – just one of countless basic state apparati and services which will have to be rebuilt or, more frequently, constructed from scratch in the wake of a government that existed solely for the benefit of the dictator and those in his circle.  This could make those who served in the previous regime all the more valuable to the new Libya, as they may be some of the only people in the country with significant relevant experience with management and administrative affairs.

Additionally, including those formerly associated with Qaddafi’s regime could decrease the risk of an armed insurgency conducted by those who are clinging either to their support for the vanquished dictator, or to the belief that their fight against the new regime is literally a fight for their lives.  Though the relative ease with which Tripoli appears to have fallen suggests that Qaddafi’s base of support was much smaller than previously thought [Note: Fighting has since picked back up in Tripoli, which suggests that Qaddafi's remaining loyalists are choosing to fight rather than to vanish into society only to fight again another day, which is potentially a positive development] – and therefore that the risk of a meaningful insurgency by Qaddafi loyalists relatively low – a willingness on the part of the new government to include those who were a part of the previous regime, including those who were a part of Qaddafi’s army, is likely preferable to the Iraq-style “de-Ba’athification” that may be more appealing to those who are finishing a five-month fight against the regime and its erstwhile enforcers.

The system of government which follows Qaddafi’s autocratic regime will obviously bear watching.  As noted above, the rebel coalition used the months of combat and stalemate to lay the groundwork for this moment: to date, the TNC claims to have done everything from drafting a constitution that places significant stock in the rule of law to planning for the transition of power from Qaddafi’s regime to the new coalition (and the restoring of order that would necessarily accompany that transition).  With the removal of the common enemy (now that Qaddafi has been deposed, and ultimately once he is found and captured), will the unity that bound together a rebel coalition consisting of former regime officials, Islamists, and members of various disparate tribes hold (allowing for differences to be worked out diplomatically and parliamentarily, to coin a term), or will violence fracture and fragment those who fought together to remove their longtime oppressor?  Additionally, what role will the Islamist faction of this coalition play, and what power will its members wield?  There have already been concerns raised about the role of Sharia law in the TNC’s draft constitution, though very little substantiation for those concerns has actually been presented to date; further, this column by jihadi expert Will McCants is very worth reading when considering the political and parliamentary savvy of the Islamists who are successfully riding the wave of the Arab Spring in the Middle East and North Africa, and how that may factor into the coming Libyan government.  Another question – of many – will be how representatives of areas that were under regime control to the very last are incorporated into the Transition Council’s coalition government, and what input they have into the proposed constitution and other documents and institutions that are established in the wake of Qaddafi’s departure.

There are many, many more questions to be answered going forward, from the present handling of the security situation in Tripoli, to the humanitarian situation across the country, to whether or not a “stabilization” force is required or requested (or whether such a force turns out, in hindsight, to have been necessary), and on and on.  In brief, we should hold out hope for a Libyan move in a positive direction, while also being mindful of the pitfalls that threaten a state and its peoples as they attempt to emerge from the ashes of what will hopefully come to be seen as a past that was far worse  than that which followed it.

COMMENTS

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Jeff

  • rbdwiggins

    The bottom line is: We spent nearly $1 Billion US protecting French oil supplies without knowing to at least a minimal degree of satisfaction that democracy will triumph over sharia. That’s the problem with leading from behind. No coherent plan.

    The tribal nature of a leaderless Libya lends itself to chaos more than stability and portends that Somalia, with tangible assets, is the more likely outcome.

    Especially given the proposed constitution explicitly endorses Islam as the official state religion and mandates that all legislation shall be based on sharia.

    • jiminga

      and Jeff Emanuel’s post is pretty professorial. Reciting the history of the conflict is unnecessary, as is assigning credit and blame. Qaddafi’s role in Libya was similar to Saddam’s role in Iraq, that of using strongarm tactics to control fierce differences between religious and tribal groups. When we leave Iraq it will fall into chaos, if it hasn’t already begun. A post-Qaddafi Libya will be the same, as the core beliefs of the different parties are not compatible.

      The “Arab Spring” will re-establish tribal chaos that existed before the dictators stepped in and established “order”, however distasteful the order has been to democracies. Europe and The US have let the monster out of the cage and will not be able to put it back.

      And all this ignores the possibility of an Arab refusal to sell oil to the west, bringing the west to it’s knees without firing a shot.

      • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

        And suggest that if you have a different angle to take, you do some research and write it up. I’d be interested in reading it, particularly if it goes beyond the unsubstantiated conventional wisdom that makes up most of your comment and actually offers factual information.

        First, I’d be interested in knowing how Libya can “bring the west to it’s [sic] knees” by holding onto its oil. First, their contribution to the oil market is small by American consumption standards (though it’s significant to the EU); second, how would the TNC or any other Libyan government fund itself if it took what is basically its only monetizable resource off the market?

        Pessimism is one thing; simply throwing around terms and phrases without substantiation is another. If I’m recommending between the two, I’d suggest the former over the latter.

        • edintexas

          “And suggest that if you have a different angle to take, you do some research and write it up. I?d be interested in reading it, particularly if it goes beyond the unsubstantiated conventional wisdom that makes up most of your comment and actually offers factual information.”

          Seems like Jeff took this really, really personal. I’m sure he wouldn’t care for my take on all this: It was none of our business, we are not supposed to attack another country without current provocation, we were lied to about what was the “mission”, NATO has turned into a mercenary army with the US paying most of the tab, etc.

        • jiminga

          If you perceive mine as different from yours, so be it. And I never suggested Libya , in particular, would have any dramatic effect on the west, except witholding it from Europe certainly would. If you reread my comments, I referred to an Arab witholding of oil, never mentioning Libya in particular. I suppose you dismiss the possibility of extremist Islamist regimes dominating the ME and witholding oil from the west.

          Only time will tell which prediction is correct.

          • edintexas

            I didn’t think my comment in that “reply” was other than a commentary on what has occurred. I certainly didn’t intend for that comment to be taken as a “prediction”.

          • jiminga

            I agree with you 100%

      • chamberD

        “Clearly, the mission went way beyond its UN mandate of protecting civilians from harm. It turns out that our putative moral duty to protect civilians from harm, a.k.a. the ?responsibility to protect,? is a transparent cover for overthrowing whatever foreign regime we don?t like, for whatever reason we don?t like it, if it happens to be involved in a civil war. All we have to do is announce that the other side in this civil war needs to be ?protected? from the government, which gives us the opening to introduce our military forces in that country, and then we simply proceed to expand our mission of protecting civilizans into a mission to defeat the government. And no one will mind. Have you heard a single forceful and respected voice in American politics protesting the illegal expansion of the Libya mission?”

        From “What we have done in Libya,” at amnation.com/vfr

    • pashley1411

      it might be useful to remember that the path to freedom and prosperity is not democracy, which today has useful ideas and tomorrow is an implacable bloodthirsty mob. Freedom and prosperity is based on the rule of law. Hopefully wise, sometimes not.

      Its the Left that thinks every riot is a Selma. Every riot and revolution is, instead, the roll of the dice, The Left loves the opportunity created by chaos. But prosperity and freedom is built by the slow accumulation of family, social ties, and prosperity.

      • rbdwiggins

        inevitably morphs into Mobocracy. It’s one of the inherent flaws of human nature.

        Liberty, unbound and without restraint, descends into anarchy. Government, unbound and without restraint, institutionalizes repression and indentured servitude.

        Faith and Liberty, strengthened by common bond and conservative principles, tempered by the rule of law and protected by the constitution, are the path to freedom and prosperity… the basis for American exceptionalism.

        We must shoulder our burden with our eyes fixed on the future, but recognizing the realities of today, not counting on mere hope or wishes. We must be willing to carry out our responsibility as the custodian of individual freedom. Then we will achieve our destiny to be as a shining city on a hill for all mankind to see.

        Ronald Reagan – March 17, 1978, 5th Annual CPAC Conference

  • Raven

    My money is still on Libya becoming an overt Al Qaeda stronghold just as Egypt is now for the Muslim Brotherhood.

    • edintexas

      Maybe not Al Queda, but an “Islamic Republic” trending toward antipathy (at best) toward the West.

  • thomgillespie

    Damn good job Barack, Bush & Cheney never could have pulled this off …

    • Xasteius

      nt

      • edintexas

        First Ever post, why would you think he was being sarcastic? A regular – absolutely, a first timer – possible sarcasm, probable troll.

  • Michael Dugas

    with like, if I remember correctly, over 130 tribes. Qaddafi was very good at the ins and outs of tribal politics as his decades of control make apparent. It’s going to be quite the job getting consensus among all those distinct cliques. Even in a country like Egypt where there is a larger educated class and a large group of younger citizens who were looking for a “slightly” more secular and modern government the Islamists have risen to power and control. How hard is it going to be to prevent such an outcome in a more back ward Libya?
    I hope for their sakes they find success but I wouldn’t bet any of our devalued currency on it.

  • Scope

    the dictator that we know, and was contained in a box, with the rebels that we also know are some of the same radicals that have admitted killing our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Quaadfi was absolutely a much worse tyrant than Mubarac, but what will replace them both? Egypt, under Mubarac, was much less of a threat to Israel than what is currently happening on the ground between Egypt and Israel. Was this a win for Obama as many are saying? Bush declared victory early on in Iraq, when we had not yet gained victory. Obama, all but declared victory in Libya, even though reports on the ground have not confirmed that. Seems to be much misreporting about the situation in Libya on all fronts. One of Gaadfi’s sons, reported captured by the rebels, was on Fox reporting today. I just have to wonder how much is guessing and how much is fact coming out of Libya, and the WH.

  • JSobieski

    get taken down. In the long term however, Libya is far more likely to be more of a threat in 5 years than it is now.

    Every Middle Eastern nation (besides Israel and Turkey) that adopts a Constitution and pursues self government ends up enshrining Sharia law in the their Constitution.

    If we couldn’t avoid a Sharia Constitution in Afghanistan or Iraq, what makes anyone think we can avoid one in Libya. Turkey had a genuine home grown secular revolutionary, and Turkey is sliding into the abyss. Libya is somehow going to be immune to the same forces?

    The only Middle Eastern nation where revolution is clearly to our advantage is Iran, given that Iran is already the most aggregious and nasty Sharia state on the planet. Even in Syria, we are probably better off with the SQ.

    Remember that poll showing that 84% of Egyptians support a government enforced death penalty for apostosy? Does anyone have good evidence to suggest that Libyans would answer differently?

    The Western World is on a losing streak, and this is substantively an L even if there is an emotional/psychological reason to feel good about it.

    • edintexas

      That is I think you might be jumping the gun in believing that Turkey will maintain the secular Constitution imposed by Attaturk and previously defended by the military.

      • JSobieski

        All I said was that to date, there are only two countries in area of the ME that have at least somewhat meaningful Constitutions and do not have Sharia enshrined in those Constitutions.

        Turkey is clearly on a downward slope. At least you don’t hear calls for Turkey to enter the EU anymore.

        One area where I am glad Europe didn’t follow GWB’s suggestions was on admission of Turkey.

        • edintexas

          Your sentence “Every Middle Eastern nation (besides Israel and Turkey) that adopts a Constitution and pursues self government ends up enshrining Sharia law in the their Constitution.” appeared to me to be written in the future tense, speaking to the future rather than the situation at this instant.

          We certainly agree on Turkey.

    • renl57

      The West will continue to be on a losing streak as long as OPEC holds the cards. It doesn’t matter who the President is, or what specific policies he has to this or that Middle Eastern nation–until the West’s dependence on Middle East oil (Europe even more than America) is confronted and dealt with.

      Here’s the strategic situation:

      http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=75

      http://www.worldmapper.org/display.php?selected=76

      No wonder we’re losing.

      And it’s not just oil. The developing world has figured out how dependent the West is on raw materials, and they’re making the most of it: Oil from the Middle East. Rare earths from sources now controlled by China. Etc.

      That the West is dependent on those things isn’t new. In the 18th and 19th century, European empires would have just sent expeditionary forces to conquer those lands and make them colonies. But for various reasons too much to go into here, that option is no longer possible.

      We would have lost the Cold War, if the West had been dependent on raw materials from the U.S.S.R. Either that or World War III would have broken out.

      • edintexas

        We have supplies of these items (rare earths, oil and other energy sources) and prevent our companies (and the owners of the mineral rights when not government) from developing them. I wish I could be utterly mistaken and the grand scheme is to deplete these items from hostile/potentially hostile sources while keeping our sources in reserve. But our Lefties and politicians aren’t that Machiavellian.

  • Adjoran

    It had to be designed so that Obama could blame someone else if it failed, but take as near full credit as possible if it succeeded.

    And they say he never learned his lesson from the health care debate . . .

  • Tbone

    Iran 2.0, IF we are lucky. If not, Ethiopia/Somalia/Sudan 2.0.

    Now, moving on to Syria, we got any of those cruise thingys left?

    • edintexas

      You really believe this Administration, or any of the “NATO Powers” is planning/willing to take on Assad? They’ve already used the excuse/lie that they were simply taking action to protect the civilian population. They won’t get that one past the UN again, and they won’t do anything without the sacred UN imprimatur. Mercenaries don’t do things on their own.

      I could be wrong, but since Assad has already surpassed Gadhaffi in the number of civilian deaths from government actions, I don’t think I will be proven wrong.

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        I sure would not feel any “Safer” if we were involved in yet a fourth shooting war in the middle east.

        • aesthete

          nt

      • Tbone

        nt

    • JSobieski

      We don’t need a another oil-funded Sharia state so unencumbered by civil strife that it can fund a nuclear program.

  • gunslingr45

    And he seems to be doing that alot.
    Good thing the seals had him along leading the group. Just ask him.

  • ihateliberals

    There has been no indication that once Gaddafi is gone that the attitude towards the west will be any different and in fact may get worse.

  • rowdydfw

    Every islamic state has their dictator who takes the heat off the holy imam’s running the place and oppressing the people with their unholy violent dogma. Libya is no different.

    In January Libyans started protesting the cost of housing. They raised such a stir that the Imams sent Gaddafi out and offered $20 billion in new housing which basically shut them up. Except of course for a journalist named Hajj or Haaji who wasn’t happy when they started settling down, and put out a call for insurgents and was happily obliged by the same hand that’s been moving insurgents around all over the Middle East…aka The Brotherhood.

    We had Gaddafi fighting the insurgents off, and the US media going wild that he was going to kill off his own people in Benghazi when the insurgents took over there. Now we have the old ‘humanitarian protection game’ in place for the UN and NATO to step in because France and G. Britain are paranoid about their oil supplier.

    Then we suffered through the insanity of Obama foreign policy from which emerged the announcement right in the middle of insurgents war, that ‘the new government’ being established in Libya would have access to Gaddafi’s $34 billion in frozen assets and that these WHOEVER THEY ARE can establish embassys in the US. Because these fake Libyans are trying to bring democracy and freedom to a people ruled by a deranged dictator, who has been fairly benign since President Reagan almost sent a rocket up his behind. However the unholy imam’s still run the place and will continue to run the place once a new deranged dictator is put in place to take the heat off the imams so they can continue to pretend they’re a religion.

    And of course we suffered through Obama flicking off our Congress like pesky flies claiming he didn’t need their permission to commit war as he was acting under the authority of the NATO Treaty and UN resolutions, despite the clear language in the War Powers Act and our Constitution giving only Congress that authority.

    Now for a good show, Obama, McCain and Graham took up microphones, Obama touting his genius, and McCain/Graham claiming we won Obama’s war we were never really fighting in the first place. Until, that is, Gaddafi’s son appeared safe and sound, unscathed, on the ground bragging that they had trapped the insurgents and were breaking their backs and Col. Moammhr is completely safe and in Libya..

    Now McCain grabbed the microphone last night in the face of his embarrassment and starts mumbling that we MUST continue to support the fake Libyans because of the cached weapons of mass destruction available to any grabbers. And still insisting that the removal of Gaddafi was imminent and he can’t last but a few more hours, even though he has these vast caches of weapons of mass destruction.

    The US taxper is close to a $1 billion borrowed dollars for exactly what? To prop up the regime of the rich Mozlem Brotherhood’s insurgency now spreading to North Africa. The Libya debacle is just more proof to me that the patients are running the asylum in DC.

    The truth is, that there will never be democracy in an islamic state unless the Mozlems renounce the violence and oppression of islam and the imams who control them.

    • edintexas

      rowdydfw wrote: “And of course we suffered through Obama flicking off our Congress like pesky flies claiming he didn?t need their permission to commit war as he was acting under the authority of the NATO Treaty and UN resolutions, despite the clear language in the War Powers Act and our Constitution giving only Congress that authority.”

      Not to mention that our “NATO Treaty Obligations” oblige us to act in the defense of a NATO “partner” nation which is attacked by a non-NATO actor. The North Atlantic Treaty has no provision for us to act in support of any NATO nation, or the organization in general, when initiating a war (declared or otherwise) against another nation.

  • jb13

    Just last week, Obama was standing somewhere in a corn field in Illinois, blaming the Libyan uprising for the failure of his economic policies. And now, he’s standing in Martha’s Vineyard, taking credit for the uprising.

    And no one is calling him on it.

    • edintexas

      And you expect something different, from either the MSM or Republican politicians?

  • aesthete

    the relative merits and demerits of the form of government that replaces Ghadaffi will be of little import to anyone but the Libyans — when it comes right down to it, Libya does not hold particular prominence in the ME or N Africa, and from our point of view, has been reasonably compliant for the last 10 years under Ghadaffi. Though it would undoubtedly be a tragedy were Libya to descend into (even greater) chaos, there is no conventional threat to us coming from even a very radical Libya.

    That said, there is a not-so-outside chance that, left to its own devices, the new Libyan government will either 1) be a client state of sorts for Al-Qaeda and other like groups operating in the area, or 2) will lack legitimacy and foster conditions such that Al-Qaeda will be able to operate freely and as a law unto itself (particularly in eastern Libya). Afghanistan was no great military or economic power; it was, however, a problem due to the fact that its government allowed hostile non-state actors aid and comfort, and it is very possible that the new Libyan government will be more conciliatory towards Al-Qaeda than the Ghadaffi of the past 10 years was, or that it will be too weak to do anything.

    Will the western nations which clamored for the rebels to win in Libya allow this to happen? Unless they commit to some sort of “stabilization”/occupation force, I don’t see how they could prevent it, if the Libyans chose to go in such a direction. Yet, our experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan (and Somalia, and the Sudan, and… you get my point) should tell us that forming institutions for dysfunctional countries is easier said than done, especially when the military also has to fend off a home-grown insurgency. I suppose that we’re back to square one: the optimists must place their faith in the good intentions (and ability to follow through on these good intentions) of the Libyan rebels. Worse, we remain in a situation where the payoff for success is quite small (what would we gain even if a democratic, secular Libya were to emerge, hmm?), and the penalty for failure could be very painful and require years of intervention in the future.

    • acat

      The problems we’ve seen with nation-building for the last, say, 2 generations – i.e. after Germany, Japan, and South Korea were underway – are, IMO, that we’re unwilling to break enough eggs.

      That said, “follow the money” says that France (and Italy and therefore Germany) have an interest in a stable Libya… so may well drag us into some sort of long-term peacekeeping. If that’s the direction, then .. IMO, it should be under French control.

      As much as I despise the French political leadership, their armed services are quite good, and have more experience operating in Africa than almost anyone elses’ as they keep sticking their noses into the internals of their former colonies.

      Mew

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        I agree re not being willing to break enough eggs, but do think the Iraq project has been essentially good for the US. I think France and UK activities in Africa have led to dysfunctional socialist states.

        I thought we should have pulled out all but whack-a-mole squads long ago in Afghanistan. They will never be what Iraq could be and are not in the oil patch. We just need to prevent terror nation states.

        • JSobieski

          It would be more effective in my view to periodically launch air strikes every couple of years in Afghanistan than to do what we are doing now.

          Let the buggers get a false sense of confidence, crawl out of the caves, and then hit them when they reveal themselves.

          Such a policy is more cynical than any previously expressed US military policy, but it makes a lot of sense

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            And yes, it was a MAJOR mistake to let Iraq put sharia in the constitution…

        • acat

          One of the things we found out crawling around their back-country… lots of economic potential, and .. within relatively easy reach of India or China, both of whom would be happy to extract it and sell the finished goods to us.

          The problem I think we have in Afghanistan is that we’re looking at our history; the history of Norway would likely be a much better model. Tribal leaders forming an “upper house”, with commoners elected to a “lower house”, and a long-serving prime minister with control of most of the armed services would make more sense than a democratic republic for their social structure.

          Mew

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            Let India or China annex them and take their raw materials. That way their citizens will be stuck with the cost for a change.

          • funwithknives

            Rare earths in abundance and they seemingly stand on their own. Who wants to be a sister city to ULAN-BATOR? It ain’t Martha’s Vineyard, but adjustments shoudn’t be a problem. Fermented mare’s milk ,here we come! (Hic.c…)

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            confused them when he asked to taste their beef.

          • aesthete

            isn’t really comparable to already established oil ventures in the ME, cat — either in terms of importance or relative risk. I do agree that a different constitution and governing structure would have been better, but the historical obstacle to a unified Afghanistan has been its decentralization, rather than the demographic composition of upper and lower houses.

          • acat

            And the point to using the Norse method is because, IIRC, their “tribes” (clans) made up their “council” – and they eventually unified quite well.

            The point isn’t the demographic makeup of the upper and lower houses, it’s that the idea – as you seem to be pointing out – of houses themselves is alien. So .. start with what’s not alien.

            Mew

      • aesthete

        is that there aren’t close to enough eggs to break in the ME to create a self-sustaining, democratic omelette in the first place (and the worst metaphor ever award goes to…) Moreover, it’s not even worth it for us to try in the first place. In the case of Germany and Japan, both countries were already modern, generally liberalized states that lost their way — it was not difficult, then, to restore a tradition of governance that was already generally familiar to them: Germany, of course, was one of the most advanced states in Europe (and thus the world), and Japan’s constitution had been based on Prussia’s since the beginnings of the Meiji Restoration.

        This all stands in contrast with the ME and African countries that we’ve been invading and attempting to reforge in our own image since the end of the Cold War. Libya has never been anything but an illiberal hellhole populated by backwards people. Afghanistan has been little more than an outlying backwater region barely controlled by various dynasties, a playground or client state for empires, or an unstable, nominally-independent hellhole. Its central government has rarely extended beyond the reaches of Kabul and other urban exclaves. Iraq/Iran remain the high water mark for potential democratization in the ME, given the composition of their populaces, popular resistance to tyrants, decent infrastructure (social and physical), and an educated populace — yet, look at how swimmingly Iraq has gone.

        Brute force is not a good implement to fashioning a stable, secular and liberal democracy — it can hardly be said that our interventions in Haiti, the Philippines and Latin America failed on account of our being unwilling to be extraordinarily brutal (quite the opposite, actually). Likewise, S Korea was not a democracy borne of an occupation: the 3-4 years of military occupation were enormously detrimental to the creation of S Korean institutions, and those only developed over time on account of the unique cultural preferences of the S Koreans at that moment in time, a “benevolent dictator” in the form of Park, and some selection bias (the hardcore communists, of course, opting to go to the north and with very little immigration from N Korea after the Korean War). If indeed the French or the British attempt to create their own democracy in Libya, we should part ways and let them embark on that quest alone: it doesn’t really do anything for us, will more likely than not result in definite failure as it has in Afghanistan, or (less likely) in an uneasy, fragile equilibrium as it has in Iraq. Whatever the case, the cost won’t be worth it.

  • ncrdbl1

    Do not know if it saddens me or bothers me more that so many have bought into the lie of the Arab Spring. Democracy will not be the result of the regional uprisings. Sad since there are many people in the region who actually believe they were fighting for democracy. There will be a time when the reality is clear to everyone. That is the uprisings were just a cover for Islamic revolution. The end of the few moderate government in the region. We are already seeing the seeds of the Islamic revolution in Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood is gaining power quickly and the hatred of Israel and the west is spreading just as quickly. The US had NO national interest in getting involved in the civil war in Libya yet we go in and help determine the outcome of the war and help put in place a government who will dislike the US just as much as the soon to be former government. But which cannot be control unlike the previous government. Gaddafi was a little mouse in the region talking big as most of the world laughed at him. He was no threat to the world. With in the year we are going to see a militant Islamic government in place of which we will have no control.

  • mitch77

    QUESTIONS:
    1 – What are these wars and destabilization accomplishing in the mid-east?
    2 – Who stands to benefit from these acts?
    3 – What will fill the geo-political holes he is creating?
    4 – Is there a single entity in ALL of these places that might emerge the “big winner”?
    5 – And if so, what is it’s goal?

    Q. 1:
    Whether it is a war against a dormant ex-threat or a public cheer leading and subversive support to remove an Arab ally, or the newest action calling for another much more evil strongman to step aside, EACH of these actions removes the old guard and throws the country in question into chaos and upheaval. This is Alinsky, Cloward & Piven, and Marx ta “T”. Obama’s hero, mentors, and their ideological master.

    I do not for a second believe that Obama is some spineless idiot who is stumbling through the job making all the wrong moves. He has the same “dream” ha he has always had and one we don’t see unless we look at him a lot harder than our incurious media ever have.

    Q. 2-4:
    The short answer is “the muslim brotherhood”. Due in no small part to the lamestream media the average American is incredibly ignorant of islam and esp it’s most insidious elements. The media and our national fear of doing or saying anything that might appear intolerant has kept us stupid, vulnerable, and largely inactive in some very serious ways.
    I don’t know about you but I am really sick of people who never board a plane whining about profiling! Let’s make spacial planes with no security available just for these simpletons, call it a proactive stance on natural selection. But I digress.

    The “brotherhood”, and the most radical wing of islam (Wahabi’s) have been doing some big work together. They have built over 80% of the mosques in the US. They control over 80% of the muslim prison chaplains. And they have m ore members across every muslim border than anything the world has ever seen before. As was accurately predicted by Beck in the first few days of the Egypt debacle, the brotherhood has swept in and begun it”s takeover of the country. With it will come sharia, oppression, calls to kill every jew , and (Answer to Q # 5) a muslim caliphate.
    THIS IS NOT SPECULATION! Numerous leaders of the MB have stated in the last few months that this is the goal.
    What’s so bad about a Caliphate? ALL muslims under one rule to better take over the world. Yes really!

    And we have a president who seems to be doing everything he can to throw the doors open for this other than going in and killing off then current leaders…not that he hasn’t tried to kill at least one. He is effectively arousing every radical that was being held in check by strongmen who were allies, or little of no threat to us or Israel. And as they go the most likely replacement means severe oppression and insane militarism based on perverse and vicious cult beliefs whit a history of consistent evil deeds going back hundreds of years.

    WAIT! You say; “But isn’t Obama a Christian?”

    For that we have only the word of a man so comfortable with lying he makes Clinton look like George Washington. There is not the slightest proof otherwise.

    Here is what we have that contradicts this:

    He has at least THREE (3) radical “muslim brother hood members” on his staff and not a single real Christian to anyone’s knowledge….and we are supposed to believe that he is born again?
    (proof – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBNeOan98Xw) This single fact ought to be sufficient for any rational person, but let’s go on.

    One of Obama’s MANY lies was his promise to find a home church about 2 years ago.
    Not only did he fail to do this he also “opted out” of almost every Christian event.

    He canceled numerous Christian events and stopped Air Force flyovers etc that had been traditions.

    Let’s not forget his overtly marxist PRO-musilm “pastor” who had radical muslim L Farrakan come to their “church” and speak, any many like him.

    He has had regular muslim celebrations in the WH and he has bowed and scraped to islamic leaders.

    I think the birthers are goofs but no rational person can doubt he is a marxist.
    All 3 parents, both grandparents, his “pastor:” of 21 yrs, all the personal hero’s he named in his books, the mentors he has named. many of the people working in the white house for him.ARE MARXISTS.

    There was that very interesting “slip of the tongue” admission on camera when he said “my muslim faith” and had to be corrected by one of our rotten leftist media types.
    Find me a born again Christian who has said “My ____ faith” and missed like this…I’ll give you all the time you need.

    Let’s not forget that islam and marxism/fascism are completely compatible.
    Throughout history these have worked together far more than they have fought.
    REAL Christianity is the most serious enemy of any strain of socialism despite the inane lies of the leftist pseudo-Christians who try and pervert scriptures to find ‘social justice’ in them.

    We also know that for at least the end of Ramadan he shed his wedding ring which is mandated by islam.

    This is the same president that spent the Christmas holidays in Hawaii
    to avoid religious obligations as PRESIDENT at the White House.

    His children do not receive Christmas presents…ever.

    What we have here is a pattern of personal behavior that strongly indicates an overt preference for islam and a nearly complete neglect of Christianity.

    ****BUT let’s just ignore all of that; Dismiss it all if you like!****

    What we are then left with are the overt acts that add up to the HUGE boost for the biggest and most dangerous of all the forces at work in islam and the middle east.
    This is not a matter of speculation. Anyone who cares to check on who is ascending to power in these Obama created vacuums can see what Obama, the ever evil State Dept., and every “brother of the muslim hood” can see. What Obama and his muslim brotherhood white House staff are creating is so wicked it makes the work of Dr Frankenstein appear like a slight error with an Easy Bake Oven.

  • pttx333

    I agree with everything you discussed. I do have a question: as for b.o. not wearing his wedding ring during Ramadan, wasn’t his watch also missing, or am I delusional? Seems that I recall reading that Muslims are forbidden from wearing jewelry during that time, and somehow his jewelry ended up in the ‘shop’ for repairs. I do ask this of the White House: specifically what could be the ‘damage’ to a gold wedding band, particularly damage that would take such a loooong time to be repaired? And the President of the United States ‘broken’ jewelry wouldn’t be on rush order? Yeah, right.

  • Risky

    Maybe proximity affects how you approach international events but I was getting pretty angry back in March. It was pretty clear that Gadaffi was about to get stuck into some biblical levels of bloodshed and I felt that “The West” (yeah my politics date back to the cold war) needed to act because a) we could and b) it was right.

    Did it make me a neo-con or a bleeding heart liberal to think giving the nod to a massacre on Europe’s doorstep didn’t seem to be excused by a) not being sure how many UN resolution you needed b) Obama not wanting to be accused of acting like Bush or c) thinking enough of the massacrees might be Islamists to make it OK or something. Obama was dragging his feet and given that the UK had been at Americas side going into Iraq (twice), I thought the least we deserved was for him to get the hell out of our way.

    Mercifully there was action and now we finally see Gadaffi out and on the run which will surely be a fine sight to anyone whose memory goes back to the 80s.

    Now sure there will be lots of noise and mess there and probably plently of people we don’t particularly like trying to get into power, but here is also a fairly large liberal diaspora which might lilt the balance the other way.

    Libya isn’t particularly strategic, the oil output isn’t that significant, but the fact that the west has intervened on the right side and got out of the way will tend have a positive influence going forward. There are plenty of rebels in Libya that will note that NATO helped their cause while Egypt with it’s well supplied air-force didn’t lift a finger. Al-Q will have their spin but at the end of the day they didn’t send any jets and for those at the sharp end that is what counts and memories are long enough for it to matter.