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Why We’re Not Going to War with Iran

The US/Israeli Attack on Iran has been 'Imminent' for Three Decades and Counting - and it's Still not Coming Any Time Soon



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Iran in U.S. Crosshairs

Do those headlines sound familiar? Judging by the recent deluge of print, web, television, and radio reports and discussions, America and Israel have responded to a growing “drumbeat for war,” as some have put it, and are on the brink of launching an overt military attack on Iran. As the real newspaper and web headlines cited above clearly show, the U.S. and its ally in the Levant have failed to learn the proverbial dangers of a land war in Asia, and are furiously building toward another engagement with another Islamic country.

But wait. The dates on those headlines are, respectively, November 1979, December 1979, August 1980, August 1980, June 1984, June 1987, March 1988, November 1992, November 1993, December 1996, June 1997, August 2004, March 2005, April 2006, July 2006, February 2007, May 2008, and February 2009.

That’s right: the claim that America or Israel is on the cusp of attacking Iran is as old as the Islamic Republic itself. Such assertions have peppered media reports, op-eds, and other commentary for three decades and change at this point – a fact which should give folks pause about taking such claims any more seriously now than at any point in recent history.

Yes, Iran is hostile to the U.S. and its interests, and yes, it is almost certainly working as quickly as it can on the development of a nuclear weapon. However, despite growing hysteria on the part of media and analysts, and despite public debates like that being hosted by Foreign Affairs (the best piece among which is this one by Colin Kahl, former head of Middle East policy at the Pentagon), a western-initiated war with Iran is little more likely now than at any point in the last three decades, if not altogether less so.

HOW MANY LINES IN THE SAND?

This isn’t to minimize Iran’s nuclearization effort as an issue.  President Obama clearly has a decision to make when it comes to dealing with Iran’s apparently inexorable march toward becoming a nuclear weapons state, as will the next president should Obama be defeated in this year’s election. Thus far, the administration has issued firm statements while consistently moving its “red line” of acceptable nuclear progress backward in response to each Iranian action. As Pepe Escobar noted at CBSNews Online:

Let’s start with red lines. Here it is, Washington’s ultimate red line, straight from the lion’s mouth. Only last week Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta said of the Iranians, ‘Are they trying to develop a nuclear weapon? No. But we know that they’re trying to develop a nuclear capability. And that’s what concerns us. And our red line to Iran is do not develop a nuclear weapon. That’s a red line for us.’

How strange, the way those red lines continue to retreat. Once upon a time, the red line for Washington was “enrichment” of uranium [Auth. note: As Olli Heinonen has recently noted, the Fordow plant is currently producing 20% enriched uranium – an important step in producing weapons-grade uranium] . Now, it’s evidently an actual nuclear weapon that can be brandished. Keep in mind that, since 2005, Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei has stressed that his country is not seeking to build a nuclear weapon. The most recent National Intelligence Estimate on Iran from the U.S. Intelligence Community has similarly stressed that Iran is not, in fact, developing a nuclear weapon (as opposed to the breakout capacity to build one someday).

Why does the standard U.S. response to Iran’s advancement past each impassable line-in-the-sand ultimatum appear to be to shrug, take ten more paces backward, draw a new line, and demand that Iran not cross that one?  The two-fold answer to that is as simple as it is frustrating for those who prioritize non-proliferation (particularly to state supporters of terror like Iran) very highly.

WHY AN ATTACK WON’T HAPPEN: REASON I

First, it is highly unlikely that an aerial campaign would be able to successfully eliminate Iran’s nuclear program, which is made up of deeply buried, hardened targets spread across multiple sites (though Matthew Kroenig has argued in Foreign Affairs that the majority of sites that serve as the most critical targets are within reach of conventional airborne munitions).  Further, attempting to strike these sites would have a net negative effect on the U.S.’s interests; as President Bush’s Director of Central Intelligence Michael Hayden reiterated just this week,“ When we talked about this in the government, the consensus was that [attacking Iran] would guarantee that which we are trying to prevent — an Iran that will spare nothing to build a nuclear weapon and that would build it in secret.”  A certain effect of striking or even eliminating the program (if that were possible) but leaving the regime intact would be to double their resolve to establish a nuclear weapons capability, in no small part because success in that pursuit would provide it the security of deterrence (and the freedom to continue its effort to be a bully in the region and beyond), as North Korea has repeatedly demonstrated.

Given these limitations and first-order effects, the next-best option would seem to be to carry out an operation that simultaneously eliminated Teheran’s nuclear sites and deposed the regime.  This is akin to what FPI’s Jamie Fly and AEI’s Gary Schmitt have suggested, with one major difference: Fly and Schmitt appear to be calling for an solely aerial campaign (augmented, almost certainly, by other conventional standoff weaponry), but with a target list that is expanded beyond sites that are directly related to the nuclear program. They write:

A limited strike against nuclear facilities would not lead to regime change. But a broader operation might. It would not even need to be a ground invasion aimed specifically at toppling the government. The United States would basically need to expand its list of targets beyond the nuclear program to key command and control elements of the Republican Guard and the intelligence ministry, and facilities associated with other key government officials. The goal would be to compromise severely the government’s ability to control the Iranian population. This would require an extended campaign, but since even a limited strike would take days and Iran would strike back, it would be far better to design a military operation that has a greater chance of producing a satisfactory outcome.

With all due respect to Fly and Schmitt, it’s  a very good thing that this suggestion will never come to fruition, in large part because it is one of the worst suggestions that has been put forth to date for dealing with the Iranian nuclear issue.  If simply bombing those sites which can be identified and reached with conventional weapons is an ineffective way of dealing with Iran’s program, then attacking those sites and striking Teheran’s “key command and control elements” from 30,000 feet AGL or from up to 1,000 nautical miles away, then leaving the resulting chaotic mess for the Iranian people (and those still remaining in the military- governmental complex) to clean up and rebuild from is an exponentially more effective way of ensuring that whatever does emerge from the rubble will not in any way be positively disposed to the U.S. and its interests.  In other words, the idea that the best possible option on Iran would be to fly in, break everything (in hopes of prompting regime collapse), and then immediately leave is, quite simply, mind-boggling.

WHY AN ATTACK WON’T HAPPEN: REASON II

This brings us to the second reason why an attack on Iran is as unlikely now as it has been at any time in recent history, if not more: the fact that the only option to truly ensure that the existing program is done away with, and to create the most favorable odds that Iran’s efforts at nuclearization would not be reconstituted in greater secrecy at the earliest possible moment, would be to mount an air-and-ground invasion that deposed the regime; disbanded the Revolutionary Guard; and manually searched for; reported, and destroyed all weapons of mass destruction and WMD production facilities that it found; and trusted that freeing the people from the tyranny of their government and the punishment it had brought, and meted out, upon them would immediately win them to America’s side and its cause.

Does that sound familiar? If not, then George Santayana would like to have a quick word with you, because I’ve just basically described the 2003 coalition invasion of Iraq, and that is precisely why no such invasion of Iran is in the offing at any time in the near future.  Had America not had the experience of “breaking” Iraq, and learning the hard way just how difficult it is to put such a Humpty Dumpty together again, then a campaign against Iran might not be such a far-fetched idea.  However, with Iraq planted firmly in our short-term memory (despite the withdrawal of uniformed troops this December, that effort is still far from over), and with Afghanistan still so unstable that the coalition is once again stepping up peace and power-sharing talks with the Taliban, the simple and unavoidable fact is that there will not be even a fraction of the public, expert, or official governmental support for an invasion of Iran that there was for the action taken against Afghanistan and Iraq last decade.  Additionally, Iran’s geographic location virtually guarantees that militants will stream into the Persian state from every direction in massive numbers, augmenting an organic insurgency and waging a low- and medium-intensity conflict and domestic terror campaign that could well make both  Afghanistan and Iraq seem relatively tame in comparison.

These facts argue very convincingly for the risk of an attack on Iran being as low as it has been for the preceding decades, despite the constant media speculation and hype about a supposedly impending attack that has been a feature of reports and analyses across that period.

WHAT ELSE CAN BE DONE?

This isn’t to say that nothing can or should be done to hinder Iran’s efforts.   As General Hayden recently reinforced, the Bush administration recognized the folly of waging war on Iran (despite the decrepit Seymour Hersh’s repeated – and breathless – claims to the contrary), and moved to focus its overt efforts at counterproliferation on Iran’s economy in hopes of convincing the government to change course and fomenting civil unrest. Though the current president missed an opportunity to side with a budding revolution against Teheran in 2009, this Congress, the Obama administration, and the EU have only strengthened the sanctions on Iran, at grave economic cost to the Islamic Republic (though the effort to prevent Iranian oil from being purchased abroad is being short-circuited by China to its own end, as it is reportedly using the distress sanctions have caused in Iran’s oil market to negotiate a lower price for themselves on Iranian crude).

Sanctions, too, have potential downside.  They can cause a targeted people to become more galvanized or a targeted regime to further tighten its grip on its subject population (just to name two), and to date they certainly haven’t convinced Teheran to give up its nuclear ambitions.  However, between sanctions and a military attack that simply cannot have any guarantee of mission success or positive outcome, but which is almost certain to carry with it massively negative effects (of the first order, as well as second-, third-, and beyond) , the former has to be the preferred option, at least for the time being.  Those sanctions will continue to be augmented by covert operations wherever and whenever possible, but there is almost zero chance that overt military action will also be  added to the mix – again, despite the almost constant media claims to the contrary.

Where we go from here is a very big, very important question.  As Kenneth Pollack put it, “if the Obama administration’s forward progress is clear enough when it comes to its Iran policy, its ultimate destination is not.”  The best outcome, as Hayden and the Bush administration recognized last decade, is regime change within Iran.  “It’s not so much that we don’t want Iran to have a nuclear capacity,” Hayden said, as it is “that we don’t want this Iran to have it … Slow it down long enough and maybe the character [of the Iranian government] changes.”  While sanctions and covert actions have managed to slow Iran’s nuclear progress, short of war only a positive regime change (which is no guarantee) are likely make a real difference in the status quo.

Given the wide-ranging support for the coalition invasion of Iraq leading up to the 2003 start of that war, it is telling that the current debate over Iran includes hawkish voices as well as calls for the U.S. to accept the inevitability of a nuclear Islamic Republic, and to prepare its containment strategy accordingly.  Because of the uncertainty of military success (and the extremely high likelihood that the cost of overt military action would be very steep), and because of the length and general messiness (for lack of a better term) of America’s recent experience with military-led regime change and counter-WMD efforts in Iraq, striking Iran simply will not be considered  an acceptable option by policymakers or the general public.  Sanctions and other non-military efforts will continue, but the likelihood that Iran will become a nuclear weapons state in the not-too-distant future should dictate that the current administration, and the next if the current president only serves one term, develops the most comprehensive possible plan for containment, deterrence, and fomenting positive regime change at the earliest possible opportunity.

While that is a grave future concern, though, the massive guaranteed cost of attacking Iran not only means that such action is not the “least-worst option” that we have for dealing with Teheran’s nuclear ambitions, but it also means that it remains highly unlikely that such action will be taken – again, media hype notwithstanding.

 

 

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COMMENTS

  • tkjaros

    Great job. Well-researched. And refreshing, given some of the war propaganda I hear on stage at the debates. Santorum seems too trigger happy for me.

  • Wubbies World

    … the strongest military action I see us doing to Iran is what we are doing now with added harsh language.

    The sad part is that Iran and Russia know it too.

    • Wubbies World

      … are the most significant and helpful things we have tried to date I must admit.

  • Bill S

    This whole topic really has me thinking, as you well know. :-) Your perspectives here are fantastic.

    • jakeofalltrades

      I had been thinking our restrained hand was due to Russian pressure to preserve Iran as a buffer state for them. Your reasoning here makes my explanation superfluous.

      I feel edumucated now :)

  • Ausonius

    Reason III: we have a “president” who would not commit American troops short of an actual invasion of Chicago, even if they should be. Asymmetrical warfare, especially if led by the Israelis, is quite fine with BIG BRObama.

    Consider that we have a completely amoral, extra-constitutional administration right now.

    Is fomenting a mini-action against Iran in October – drones on the front lines of course – to capture the weak-minded voters beyond MAObama’s abilities?

  • Cheetah772

    Maybe we’re going about this the wrong way. Instead of trying to eliminate Iran’s nuclear facilities, how about hurting Iran’s ability to fund such programs? Can’t we strike at Iran’s economic infrastructure and shipping facilities?

    If we can accomplish, then we will slow down Iran’s effort in building nuclear weaponry. Or at least allow our covert ops to go after Iranian scientists and take them out…permanently. A number of recent killings of Iranian scientists could mean some covert op units are already working to accomplish that goal. But we won’t know for sure, and we may never know anyway.

    • aesthete

      but I do not see how sanctions will work. Consider that of all the countries that have developed offensive nuclear capabilities (China, France, USSR, US, UK, South Africa, Israel, India, Pakistan, N Korea), only one of them (N Korea) has had a pronounced and dramatic build-up to attaining nuclear weaponry. In the case of North Korea, the extent of their nuclear capability is dubious; their 2006 test’s small yield make their claims to having nuclear weaponry suspect, given the level of technological sophistication that this would have required. The states with confirmed nukes all developed them clandestinely; they did not announce their tests, did all they could to keep their development efforts secret, and there were few public statements regarding their intentions. Iran, in contrast, is loudly and publicly doing just the opposite. This seems to me like a regime attempting to build favor with its people by engaging them on an issue which is popular among the vast majority of Iranians (nuclear power). If this is the case, then a large amount of aggression from the US could make it *more*, rather than *less*, likely for regime change to take place, as Iranians rally around a government perceived to be acting in the public interest on this particular issue. As you say, sanctions have been unsuccessful so far, and lack support from some of Iran’s most important trading partners.

      IMO, containment is the best of a set of bad options: there is no guarantee or likelihood of regime change in Iran, and all options to curtail Iranian nuclear ambitions are likely to increase support for the current regime.

    • aesthete

      a nuclear weapon, among them Libya, Pakistan, and Syria. Bombing economic targets in Iran would likely encourage them to develop a deterrence to Western interference.

  • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil truth

    He will do whatever he can to prevent Israel or anyone else stepping up to Iran, hoping to prevent any shooting that will affect shipping.

    The question is whether Iran will play along, or whether their contempt for Obama is so strong that they don’t care what effect their actions will have on his election strategy.

  • snowshooze

    One source, David Axlerod.
    But there are more on this ship. They claim to be old Russian stuff.. not ICBM’s and that makes me think they are short or medium range tatcical warheads.
    I cannot tell for certain if there IS a platform at all, or if they just have the warheads alone.
    What is your opinion of this? Certainly, you are aware of it.
    And a couple warheads do not make a Nuclear power.
    They do make a heck of a mess though.
    Is there any truth here?

    • jakeofalltrades
      • snowshooze

        http://www.wnd.com/2009/06/102520/

        Opinion
        http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/27/iran-already-has-nuclear-weapons/?page=all
        Slanted
        http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2002/Jun_2002/iran_has_nuke_6602.htm

  • lizzie

    Jeff – really fine article although odd to see you link Kenneth Pollack’s article from a CBS URL. Here is the direct URL to Pollack at The New Republic, and I am going to copy my two comments from that thread: http://www.tnr.com/article/world/99741/war-iran-america

    [please be advised that The New Republic is liberal on domestic issues, but some of us subscribers stick around for the foreign policy threads even when the usual Israel-bashers and/or humanitarians get all worked up. After all, Iran IS a very bi-partisan issue ],
    as they did over my comment, which starts with:

    http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2012/01/17/iran_the_us_and_the_strait_of_hormuz_crisis_99847.html
    is a necessary, more nuanced, counterpoint from George Friedman at STRATFOR.

    Now that I have digested both analyses, I only want to remind Kenneth Pollack that history did not start in 2009, or 1989, and that Saddam’s secular Baathist Iraq has zero lessons when it comes to Iran.

    1) Iran’s Twelver Shi’a theocracy has been at war with the USA since 1979. One reason why the USA sided with Saddam in his war against Iran in the 1980′s.

    2) The Sunni and Shi’a schism has been unresolved for fifteen hundred years.
    There are no good options, but no one should believe that sanctions that hurt Iran’s people will be blamed on those who impose the sanctions.
    World opinion about Twelver Shi’a who celebrate their martyrdom with public, bloody scourging, and want to seize control of Mecca and Medina from the Sunni, is quite different from world opinion about any ruthless secular tyrant.

    Personally, I prefer a final battle wherein the Sunni go Genghis with the Shi’a. Solve that schism and let the rest of the world deal with all the other disasters that await us.

    Failing that, we can just wait for Mother Nature to finally realize that New Zealand does NOT deserve so many earthquakes, and the Teheran is the epicenter of earthquake faults in the world.
    Come on Mother Nature! Enough target practice – Teheran is overdue for the BIG one :)

    [ok, THAT made the bleeding heart liberals so upset that I added a new comment today to explain. Sorry about the TNR shorthand - amidut is Israeli, basman is Candian, and irony just wants to see all sides, and we had a rift, and I was touched that he defended me.
    ]

    01/18/2012 – 3:57pm EDT | amidut: all excellent points.
    irony: thanks for noticing my :) The geological fact is that Teheran IS the #1 ‘most vulnerable to massively destructive earthquake population center’ in the world. The Ayatollahs have long considered relocating Teheran because of this unfortunate accident of tectonic plates. In 2009, the Iranian population was abuzz with rumours that the Revolutionary Gurad had planted bombs around Teheran in order to ‘fake’ an earthquake.

    So, when I see New Zealand getting earthquake after earthquake, my inner geologist does wonder when Mother Nature will finally shift her focus, tectonically speaking, to Teheran. Which would mean that Iran would have to divert their attention to a national tragedy, and leave everyone else alone for awhile.

    Basman – even tho you are not here, glad you thought the STRATFOR analysis a good counterpoint to Pollack’s post here.

    Having spent one semester in grad school in 2005 studying Political Islam, especially focussed on Iran’s Twelver Shi’a theocracy, I just see the fifteen hundred year battle for control of Mecca and Medina as a battle I personally wish could be settled with a conventional resolution – whether that includes tank battles outside Karbala, where Ali was beheaded by the Sunnis; or whether it means Moqtada Al-Sadr reveals he IS the Twelth Imam, and everyone ponders why it did not require nuclear devastation of anyone; or ends, as did the Thirty Years War, with the Peace of Westphalia in say, Baghdad (being the geographic centerpoint of the arc of Shi’ism) – it would be very good for the entire world, including the world of Islam, to finally resolve this fifteen hundred year schism.

    Anyone who thinks Twelver Shi’a theocracy is RATIONAL, and can be contained, needs to study a lot more actual history. The Saudis are far more threatened by a nuclear Iran because the Saudis want to remain the Guardians of Mecca and Medina.

    Now that Israel has shale oil reserves equal to the oil reserves of Saudi Arabia, I just do not know if Iran would even use a dirty bomb in Tel Aviv, which is far more a risk than a nuclear missile. After all, the Shi’a of Lebanon have historic and familial links with Iran, andcontrol of Israel’s newly discovered shale oil (and offshore natural gas) is a real wild card.

    Still, no one should ever believe that Twelver Shi’a theocracies are rational.
    Whereas, secular Baathist tyrants can be relied upon to be rational about retaining power.

    I have no sympathy for Iran’s historically based “greivance”. Yes, Persia/Iran has been a plaything of almost every empire for more than two hundred years. But, Persia certainly played the empire game for more than 2,000 years. Iran is the remnant of the Persian empires, and I am still counting on the Kurds, Azeris, Lur, Baluchis, Turkmen minorities who still find themselves persecuted by the rump of Persians inside the current borders of Iran.

    ADD for RedState:
    As to RUSSIA and Iran?

    Iran promises to NOT help Russia’s war against their Islamists in the Caucausus.

    High oil prices greatly benefit Russia.

    Medevdev is trying to lure back the Russian brain drain from Israel, but I do not think that is why Russia coddles Iran – in fact, I still think Stuxnet was a Russian covert op – as if Russia really wants a Twelver Shi’a theocracy with REAL nuclear capabilities?

    There are reports of hundreds of North Koreans at work in Iran.

    Iran and China?

    Iran is already China’s economic hostage. Most of iran’s imports now come from China, and China likes the oil. It is not such a bad thing for China to be the real puppetmaster.

    but, like Russia, China wants Iran to NOT help China’s Muslim insurgencies.

    I figure the Saudis already own Pakistan’s nukes – after all – this really IS about that fifteen hundred year schism between Sunni and Shi’a.

    There really is NO good option.

    I really do prefer pork-loving Russians and Chinese containing/controlling a Twelver Shi’a theocracy.

    • jakeofalltrades

      Your understanding of Islam is impressive, but incomplete.

      All Abrahamic religions without exception are waiting for the Messiah. The Shiites await the 12th Imam, whom they believe hidden from the world. The Sunnis await someone; some believe someone new, others believe Jesus.

      In both cases, the Madhi (Messiah) will return and bring the entire world under his rule in a united caliphate. Everyone will become Muslim. That is how all schisms finally end in Islam.

      The only thing preventing this paradise is the continued existence of the Jews. The prophet Mohammed said the last hour cannot come until the Jews are all systematically eradicated (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, #6985).

      The schism is real and has consequences, but they do not primarily seek victory over each others’ bodies; rather, the genocide of the Jews will give them their victory.

      The destruction of Israel is the primary objective that unites all sects. The schism is just a sideshow.

      • aesthete

        In Iraq, Sunni and Shia were more than happy to kill each other, and form militias to that effect, solely due to their schism. They are still at each others’ throats today, and have no intention of stopping.

        Iran, SA, and other countries in the region have irreconcilable differences as a result of this schism, and their power politics are informed by this ancient division.

        There are very few syncretic or ecumenical movements within Islam; absolutely none with any sort of staying power.

        While we have faced both Sunni and Shia Muslims in battle, they do not coordinate together in any organized fashion. Iranians fighting in Iraq have provided aid and comfort to Shia militias, and Al Qaeda and other Sunni organizations have organized with Sunni militias in Iraq.

        • jakeofalltrades

          From the Weekly Standard:

          A close reading of the 9/11 Commission Report, however, along with legal documents produced by the Clinton administration, the trial testimony of two known al Qaeda terrorists, and a variety of other sources, tells a different story. There is a lengthy history of collaboration between Mugniyah and al Qaeda. And there remain disturbing questions about his possible involvement in the attacks of September 11.

          Imad Mugniyah’s relationship with Osama bin Laden began in the early 1990s, when al Qaeda’s CEO was living in Sudan. Bin Laden’s benefactor at the time was a charismatic Sunni Islamist ideologue named Hassan al- Turabi. In 1989, Turabi, along with General Omar al-Bashir, now president of Sudan, orchestrated a coup in which Sudan’s regime was overthrown. In its place, Bashir and Turabi installed their own National Islamic Front (NIF) party.

          From the first, the NIF had radical designs for the world. The differences between Sunnis and Shiites were not insurmountable in Turabi’s eyes; on multiple occasions he dismissed the importance of any theological disagreements. Instead, Turabi envisioned a grand, Manichean clash of civilizations in which the Muslim world stood united against its common Western foes, especially America. In a few short years, Turabi’s Sudan became a hub for international terrorists of all stripes. A who’s who of terrorists set up shop. And Turabi welcomed the leading state sponsors of terrorism as well. Scores of Iraqi and Iranian intelligence officers relocated to Sudan, and Turabi made sure they mingled with his other imported terrorists. As George Tenet would note in his autobiography, At the Center of the Storm, Turabi “reportedly served as a conduit for Bin Laden between Iraq and Iran.”

          With Turabi’s help, bin Laden began meeting with senior Iranian and Hezbollah officials. Years later, during the trial in New York of those responsible for al Qaeda’s August 7, 1998, embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, former al Qaeda operative Jamal al Fadl described one such meeting.

          • aesthete

            Africa is the exception and antithesis to any sort of common sense groupings whatsoever :)

            In all seriousness, sub-Saharan Islamic Africa is overwhelmingly Sunni while having a very low level of awareness for what that entails. There is a reason that this state of affairs was temporary, orchestrated exclusively by the NIF, and not reciprocated by Iran in its dealings with other states. As far as Iraq goes, a secular Baathist dictatorship is hardly a hotbed of Sunni theological rancor. The 9/11 Commission itself makes clear that these ties outside of the Sudan (where both Sunni and Shi’a groups were playing ball to gain influence within the Sudan, rather than out of a genuine sense of mutual cooperation) were peripheral and very infrequent. Even the Weekly Standard article is forced to concede this point (though they make sure to load it up with innuendo): “All of this was highly suggestive, but we may never know for sure whether or not the Khobar Towers bombing was a joint operation between al Qaeda and Hezbollah.”

            The rest of the article can be summed up as lots of innuendo, and “they both liked bombs and Bin Laden copied lots of cool blowing-people-up techniques”. In the case of Iranian support, it’s pretty obvious that Iran’s support of Al Qaeda was very limited and partly based on their ability to destabilize SA (a Wahabist nation, at least nominally). I would not consider “using each other” to be coordination and pooling of resources in an organized and consistent fashion; if we want to stretch the definition that far, then radical Islamists have also coordinated with Jewish and Christian groups and governments, particularly in Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria. Iran did not support the Taliban when it ruled in Afghanistan; it only today provides limited support for its own ends. Reciprocal relationships between the two in spheres where mutual cooperation would be useful for both groups tends to be very difficult to find (again, see Iraq and Lebanon).

        • jakeofalltrades

          And then came Molotov-Ribbentrop, the Invasion of Poland, the Finnish Winter War, and the annexation of the Baltic states. And they didn’t have religion to bind them together.

          • aesthete

            I see coordination as somewhat more… permanent and reciprocal. I was objecting to the notion that both Sunni and Shi’a are willing to band together to defeat Westerners — which is not true in most cases. Limited support from a Shi’a donor to a Sunni client in a non-equivalent relationship, and limited cooperation from a Sunni client, is not reciprocal in a way that (to me, anyways) qualifies as coordinating together in an organized fashion. Neither is Molotov-Ribbentrop, which was temporary, tense, and dissolved quickly into the most bitter and hard-fought front of WWII.

            We don’t see the sort of information-sharing, or lack of infighting between the two, than I think we would if these two sentences were true:

            “The schism is real and has consequences, but they do not primarily seek victory over each others? bodies; rather, the genocide of the Jews will give them their victory.

            The destruction of Israel is the primary objective that unites all sects. The schism is just a sideshow.”

          • jakeofalltrades

            And my OP wasn’t even that focused on coordination in the first place. I was more focused on the goal the sects have in common. I then proved that they will work together to achieve that goal.

            Here is more proof. Hamas – Sunni. Hezbollah – Shiite.

            Coordinated diplomatic and political action to destroy Israel.

            I despise Ha’Aretz, but they have proof of operational-level cooperation.

            More operational-level coordination.

            They help each other, and members move freely between these groups.

            Their grass-roots supporters even protest together.

            Here’s a Sunni cleric calling for Sunnis and Shiites to unite to nuke Israel.

            The Ayatollah Khamenei agrees with me, saying the Sunni-Shiite conflict is just a distraction – perhaps fomented by Western powers – and that all Muslims are obligated by their respective doctrines to unite.

            This evidence proves that at least one Sunni and one Shiite organization have, for over a decade, planned together, coordinated attacks together, diplomatically and politically protected each other, and even swapped members, all with the common and stated goal of destroying Israel. Even their grassroots march together. High-ranking clerics on both sides have been cited as calling for unity in opposing the “imperialist powers”.

            I can give you tons more evidence that will just be different instances of the above, but that would be cumulative. No, they are not allies. But they do work together for their common goal.

          • JSobieski

            supporters of Hamas (Sunni) and Hexbollah (Shiite).

            Iran is definitely willing to cross the divide, and maybe Shiites, since they are in the minority, are more willing to team up with Sunnis that vice versa.

          • jakeofalltrades

            Since they are like 10% of the Islamic world.

          • lizzie

            has a lot to do with maintaining Iran’s Shi’a arc thru Syria and Lebanon.

            It is really complex because there so many sub-sects of Islam, & some do not fit neatly into Twelver Shi’a or anything Sunni.

            The Ahmadi, mostly in Pakistan, are considered heretics by all.

            The Alevi, mostly indigenous to Anatolia, are officially recognized by Iran’s Shi’a “test”, but the Alevi are the most ardent Kemalists because Erdogan’s AKP only allows the mandatory teaching of Sunni Islam in Turkey’s public schools, and the Alevi want to be able to teach Alevi belif in their public schools. Thus, the Alevi are the opposition to Erdogan’s AKP, which is supported by the Gulen movement. The Kurds in Turkey tend to split denominationally between moderate Sunni and Alevi. Most of the Turks who live in Germany are Alevi.

            The Azeri are also technically Shi’a, but the Azeri inside Iran are officially members of UNPO.org Unrepresented People’s. As are the entire population of Azerbaijan because they believe they are “occupied”. Israel has good relations with Azerbaijan.

            The Alawites (Syria’s Assad) are barely technically Shi’a, theologically speaking, but the Shi’a of Lebanon have direct familial links to Iran.

            But, while Israel may seem to be the main target of both Shi’a and Sunni, do not underestimate the fifteen hundred year grievance of their schism.
            Remember Bahrain? Iran still claims sovereignty.

            The Shi’a minority in Saudi Arabia is blatantly discriminated against, but that Shi’a minority just happens to live on top of a big chunk of Saudi’s oil fields.

            There is almost an annual dispute between Saudis and Iran over how many Shi’a can make the haj to Mecca.

            Whoever is the Guardian of Mecca and Medina rules the world of Islam.

            Iran’s recent support of Hamas may now wither because Mubarak is gone.
            I lost track of where the head of Hamas is house shopping now that Damascus is so unstable.

            Just to make the complexity ever more complex, there is a direct lineage from Nazi ideology to Baathism.
            Germany tried to flip the world of Islam during World War 1 in order to destroy the British Empire. Peter Hopkirk’s 1994 “Like Hidden Fire” is a riveting history of that effort – the Germans even published stories that the Kaiser had converted to Islam.
            Funny, I just read the dedication to “Like Hidden Fire”, and Hopkirk wrote “To the memory of my mother, who some fifty years ago read John Buchan’s “Greenmantle”, the true story of which I have told here”. I read Hopkirk in 2005, and, never noticed that dedication.
            Not much of a fiction reader, but love spy thrillers, and Buchan was the father of spy thrillers, so in 2007, I read John Buchan’s “The Four Adventures of Richard Hannay”, of which “Greenmantle” is #2. John Buchan was a reporter during WW1, and published the most readable four volume history of WW1, which is about to become this winter’s history reading.

            Back to Iran:
            The largest population of Russians outside of Russia is now in Israel.
            But, I do not see Russia caring one whit over the sovereignty of Israel – the Russians have always hated their Jews.
            otoh, Russia certainly does not want a REAL nuclear Iran, because then Iran can make mischief at will in all of the muslim-majority former USSR nations, which is why I believe Russia has done quite a bit of stalling and sabotage, and the Iranians know it. Russia is still angry at losing the Cold War, and Syria is a client state – Russia even has a permanent port in the Eastern Med – which is bristling with submarines because of the offshore natural gas war on the verge of erupting.

            The Chinese love the Jews. Shanghai was totally open to Jews fleeing the Nazis, if those Jews could get exit and transit visas. And the Japanese occupation refused to return those Jews to Germany.

            Just that today’s China needs oil, and the USA has also interfered with Israel-China trade relationships.

            Iran is now China’s economic hostage. That is NOT making the theocracy happy. Totally incompatible cultures.
            And, it is certainly NOT in China’s interest to see a nuclear Iran

            No good solution to Iran.

            I still maintain that Israel’s newly discovered offshore natural gas (thank you Texas’ Noble Energy and Gov. Perry!) and even more important shale oil reserves that equal Saudi Arabia, are truly the wild card in all of this.

          • aesthete

            I like the USSR/Nazi Germany comparison used above, because the extent of Sunni/Shi’a cooperation is quite similar, particularly in situations where both groups have parity.

            Israel the US, and the European colonialist powers have used these divisions to great effect, and there’s no reason that they can’t continue to do so: there is by no means a great urgency in the Islamic world to unite and slay the Great Satan(s), and Sunni and Shi’a are more than happy to kill each other when the opportunity presents itself (as it has in Lebanon and Iraq recently).

  • Common_Cents

    He came out against it.

    “Obama said: “I’ve made it clear that the United States respects the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and is not interfering with Iran’s affairs.”

    Imagine: the people of Iran — not the jihadis and the devout, but the women and the secularists — were all calling for the head of the snake. Iran is indeed the head of the snake. Imagine the direction that the world might have taken if the greatest force for good, the United States, had stepped in to help the people of Iran remove that key part of the Axis of Evil. Iran is now doing business as Hezb’allah in Lebanon and is the engine and puppetmaster behind Syria. It supports Hamas and the Taliban, is agitating the Shia in Bahrain, and more.

    And if that weren’t heinous enough, now the colluder in the White House is hiding behind his empty shell of a secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, as she throws the blame for the administration’s betrayal of the Iranian demonstrators onto the stealth jihadists and Khomeini-aligned quislings they threw in with. They should have thrown them out of country for working for our mortal enemy.

    History will not be kind to Obama for his siding with evil and brutally aggressive oppression over freedom.”

    Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/why_obama_betrayed_the_iranian_people.html#ixzz1k3QOJSob

    • aesthete

      for the disorganized civil unrest in Iran would have been easy or workable is dubious. OTOH, Iran is absolutely evil; one of the most wicked and deplorable regimes marring the face of this planet. As far as I’m concerned, no regime so injurious to its own soil and people has any claim to the benefits of “sovereignty”, or any other “right” which would make its cruelties easier to execute. In keeping with American sentiment, Obama would have done better to replace his acknowledgement of these supposed “rights” with the simple phrase “sic semper tyrannis” appended to a photograph of Saddam Hussein’s hanging.

      • jakeofalltrades

        would take some of that uranium Europe is enriching for the Iranians and use it to make a suitcase demo nuke. They could smuggle the nuke back in later and destroy their enrichment facility.

        The trace evidence would point to Iranian-sourced fissile material because that is where it came from. The Iranian nuke program would be greatly damaged, and the world would condemn Iran for violating the NNP treaty.

        Everyone who matters, wins.

        • snowshooze

          I don’t see a down side.

  • malvernpa

    The Aryan nation of the Nazi moved to Iran in 1945 which translated means Aryan. The same venom and destruction brought on by the Nazi will come from Iran, there is no IF involved here there is ONLY a when. If you believe in limited nuclear war that is where this is going. Russia and China have no connection to the core values of Israel and being basically atheist could care less if Israel is wiped from the map, other nations have disappeared why not Israel. If fact it is not a very big leap for those nations to view the destruction of Israel as a good thing removing a constant stone in the shoe of middle east. Both China and Russia have no problem with a scorched earth policy toward Islam within their borders. Only in the west do we try to claim that Islam is a religion of peace. Islams peace comes only when the world is under the domination of Islam. To believe otherwise is to be very naive. This fight is going to happen, count on it. Iran and the west are 180 degrees out of phase from each other.

    • Bill S

      I’m sure you had a point behind this, but I’ll be darned if I can figure it out.

  • codenametimna

    A United States under Barack Obama will not go to war with Iran, that’s for sure. But thank God Israel is not the United States – under Barack Obama – and will do whatever it takes to protect its nation and people from madman Ahmadinejad.

    Look, North Korea was a similar scenario to Iran. Appeasement by both Bill Clinton and George W. Bush allowed North Korea to attain the nuclear weapons that every country in the civilized world knew they were in the process of producing up until the day they finally set one off a few years ago. Much to the dismay of South Korea, Japan and every other country in the region which now realizes a madman, and now his son – who may be worse than his father was – is in control of the those same nuclear weapons. And the whole region is on constant red alert because the United States of America and our allies refused to stop Kim Jong-il from attaining nuclear weapons in the first place.

    So now we have a similar scenario concerning Iran with ‘Appeaser in Chief’ Barack Obama who wants to “negotiate” with a madman named Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and obviously negotiations that haven’t produced ANY significant results thus far, and hasn’t stopped Iran from continuing to build a nuclear weapons arsenal. In fact, those very same sanctions only infuriate Iran more against the world community who initiated the sanctions on Iran.

    Barack Obama still refuses to initiate tough sanctions on the Central Bank, which is probably the only thing that would bring Iran to its knees and effectively slow down the process. But even that strict sanction measure probably won’t stop a defiant Iran from eventually acquiring nuclear weapons.

    Let’s face reality. Does the world really want another madman attaining nuclear weapons? Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is even worse than Kim Jong-un because Ahmadinejad has publicly stated many times he wants to wipe Israel off the face of the map and has also said he would go to war with any nation who tries to stop Iran’s military interests. Well guess what? Iran’s military interests are to wipe Israel off the face of the map and to annihilate the United States of America at some point, and Barack Obama basically sits there and twiddles his thumbs and still wants to negotiate with certified madmen within Iran. As we already found out, it doesn’t pay to negotiate with madmen. North Korea is now a nuclear weaponized nation and a severe threat to Western Civilization for your information. And Iran is next unless someone with a spine and cojones stops Iran from obtaining the nuclear weapons they are in the process of building right now. Even though Leon Panetta begs to differ.

    Previous White House administration’s obstinacy, denial and mediocre sanctions turned out tragically concerning North Korea. Obviously Obama has neither the spine nor cojones to stop Iran from attaining nuclear weapons. And Leon Panetta continues to bury his head in the sand wishing it wasn’t true. But it is true. And now it looks like only Israel has the will and courage to stop Iran’s defiant march toward nuclear weapons. Thank God.

    Although if Romney, Gingrich or Santorum become President they would likely work with Israel and form a coalition to stop Iran.

  • agconservative

    The facts and conclusions here are all accurate, but there are a few other considerations that make the conclusion less certain in my opinion. First, there has been a significant shift in Iranian activity in the last few years. Iran has now significantly increased their sponsorship of terrorism.. The main concern, besides the effects on the region, about Iran getting a nuclear device is that they would provide it to one of these terrorist groups. This makes Iran a significantly bigger threat than in the past. Second, Iran now has a crumbling economy and a significant domestic opposition that is likely to challenge the regime in the near future. While an aerial attack on the nuclear facilities is not likely to do permanent damage, it could delay the program. Such a delay could buy just enough time for domestic forces to attempt regime change. Especially in the case of Israel, they must see this as an existential threat, so any time bought is essential. At the end of the day, Jeff is right in that an attack on Iran is still unlikely, but I do not think it is as unlikely as it has been in the past.

  • johnt

    through surrogate wars? I am not optimistic about Iran v Israel, do we sit on folded hands if an attack or attacks are launched by Iran there, as well as stepped up terrorism gradually increasing as the U S, despite the one step forward approach of the Administration,[ goes with two steps back] retreats from a war the other side as no intention of walking away from?
    Perhaps the suggestion is that we be prepared to sacrifice others and keep our fingers crossed, and think of all the money that can then be blown on domestic programs.
    Oh, and Israel has been attacked, numerous times, through stand in irregular forces, who receive support from who ???

  • lizzie

    because Santorum’s Iran diary IS, and this post is far more thoughtful and nuanced.

    just saying I do not understand why such an important topic can not stay alive when it is a RedState home page entry and not a diary that can get recommended.

    • jakeofalltrades

      I call this the StackOverflow effect. The guy with the highest rep always gets the most rep – regardless of quality.