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Rethinking the Calls for Intervention in Syria

My RedState colleague and good friend Victoria Coates recently wrote a post calling for a humanitarian intervention in Syria on behalf of the opposition and civilians who are being killed daily by Bashar al-Assad’s regime.  She writes:

“In dealing with Libya and Syria, consistency need not be the hobgoblin of little minds but can rather be the hallmark of a consistent and coordinated foreign policy.  There are equivalencies to be drawn between the two crises, and once these are recognized we should take equivalent action.  It is not a decision to be taken lightly, but we would not be alone and the cause is just.  We have the unified support of our European and Arab allies.  We have moral and strategic interests at stake.  Rather than whining about the shocking moral turpitude of the United Nations, the President of the United States needs to remember his responsibilities as the leader of the free world–and lead.”

While I have the utmost respect for Dr. Coates, I am hesitant to agree with her in this case.  There is no question that the bloodshed in Syria, which Secretary of State Hillary Clinton referred to a mere nine months ago as a simple “police action” and contrasted favorably to the violent crackdown in Libya, has been both constant and staggering (in that same interview, Clinton favorably contrasted Assad to Qaddafi, saying “many of the members of Congress of both parties who have gone to Syria in recent months have said they believe he’s a reformer”).   The death toll in Homs alone has reportedly grown to 3,500 over the last eleven months, and while the Arab League has repeatedly called for an end to Assad’s crackdown, opposition from Russia and China has left the UN Security Council unable to pass even a simple resolution condemning the government’s murderous actions.

As the bodycount continues to rise in Syria, there has been an increase in calls for intervention conducted outside the auspices of the UN.  However, while these calls are understandable on humanitarian grounds, their authors almost invariably neglect to include any details on just what it is they wish to see take place with regard to that intervention.

At Abu Muqawama, Andrew Exum sums up the problem nicely:

“The problem is, for me at least, ‘military intervention’ at once means everything and nothing. On the one hand, the decision to use force to achieve a desired political end is momentous in and of itself. On the other hand, though, I cannot determine whether or not “military intervention” is a good or bad idea until I have some idea of what, precisely, is meant by the term. Analysts who argue either for or against military intervention have an obligation to sketch out the ways in which one could possibly intervene so that we can determine which ways, if any, make sense given the circumstances.”

This is the real question: what would an intervention in Syria look like, and under whose auspices would it be carried out?  In Libya, the most frequently cited example, the UN-approved intervention succeeded in its ultimate goal of preventing Qaddafi from crushing the rebels.  It also succeeded in removing him from power, despite that not being part of the UN authorization (and despite the effort taking far longer than the “days, not weeks” that President Obama promised).

Two points on Libya are particularly worth noting.  First, despite people declaring victory and then tuning out as usual upon Qaddafi’s capture (including, it appears, several of those ‘experts’ who called for intervention in Libya and who are calling for it again in Syria), the situation on the ground is poor and growing worse by the day.  As Anthony Shadid noted in the  New York Times Wednesday:

The country that witnessed the Arab world’s most sweeping revolution is foundering. So is its capital, where a semblance of normality has returned after the chaotic days of the fall of Tripoli last August. But no one would consider a city ordinary where militiamen tortured to death an urbane former diplomat two weeks ago, where hundreds of refugees deemed loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi waited hopelessly in a camp and where a government official acknowledged that “freedom is a problem.” Much about the scene on Wednesday was lamentable, perhaps because the discord was so commonplace.

[...]

The force at the Tripoli airport is the powerful militia from Zintan, a mountain town south of the capital, which played a role in Tripoli’s fall and still holds prisoner Colonel Qaddafi’s most prominent son, Seif al-Islam. By its count, it has 1,000 men at the airport, and one of its commanders there…The militias are proving to be the scourge of the revolution’s aftermath. Though they have dismantled most of their checkpoints in the capital, they remain a force, here and elsewhere. A Human Rights Watch researcher estimated there are 250 separate militias in the coastal city of Misurata, the scene of perhaps the fiercest battle of the revolution. In recent months those militias have become the most loathed in the country.

Second, the “no-fly zone” enforced over Libya was, in actuality, no such thing; as anybody who was paying attention at the time will recall, air power and other standoff weaponry were employed not just to ensure that the skies over Libya stayed clear, but to take out Qaddafi’s armor, vehicles, and troops between Tripoli and Benghazi. As Exum notes in another post:

The balance in Libya was only tipped when NATO warplanes began “enforcing the no-fly zone” by destroying Libyan tanks and armored personnel carriers. (I know those things don’t actually fly, but the only way you can be really sure they won’t grow wings is by dropping a GBU-31 on top of them.)

Of course, the reality – that massive mission creep was necessary to break the gridlock in Libya and push Qaddafi out of power – is frequently obfuscated or ignored when discussing the Libyan “success.”  Writing in the Times a few weeks ago, Robert Pape used Libya and Syria as examples of the need for a “new standard for humanitarian intervention” (which he didn’t go into detail on), while arguing that such intervention is incumbent on America et al if people are being killed as long as there is no danger to the interveners. Along with proposing a “new standard” for intervention without actually going into what that standard should be, Pape misrepresents NATO’s Libya action (which he supports) while contrasting it with a prospective intervention in Syria (which he currently opposes, basically because it would be more difficult and more dangerous). He writes:

“[R]ather than seeking regime change to prevent genocide, President Obama focused on the narrower objective of preventing “a humanitarian catastrophe” and explicitly ruled out foreign-imposed regime change.

These more modest, pragmatic goals sidestepped Mr. Gates’s objections and reflect the emerging new standard for humanitarian intervention. The United States took the lead, but initially only to halt the mass-homicide campaign. And it rightly set goals that would not require an ambitious military commitment.”

Of course, as alluded to above, anybody who was paying attention at the time knows that the disavowal of regime decapitation and change was little more than lip service to the UN resolution that specifically authorized the protection of civilians rather than the overthrow of Qaddafi, in part because it was widely recognized that the protection of civilians from Qaddafi could only be ensured via his removal.

Libya is not Syria – and the ‘Pottery Barn Rule’ is being thoroughly ignored by those who are now focused on the latter, having abandoned the former to militias and growing chaos.  However, the intervention there has impacted the willingness of America, NATO, and the United Nations to approve and participate in a similar intervention in Syria (in an interesting if incomplete piece, Joshua Foust suggeststhat Russia and China are opposing Syrian intervention specifically because of the NATO action in Libya and the severe mission creep it entailed).

More importantly, though, Syria has a functional military with significant firepower and a government that is still largely in control throughout the country.  It has a powerful ally in Russia, which continues to give aid and comfort to Assad’s regime as the violent crackdown continues (and which will continue to do so as long as they consider it to be in their interest to do so, which I think may be a more significant period of time than P.J. Crowley predicts). Further, Syria currently has no Benghazi: rebels haven’t gained control of any geographic area significant enough to use as a refuge or base from which to conduct defensive operations, and potential targets for interventionist air power are interspersed with civilians and rebels, which greatly limits the effectiveness of standoff weaponry while simultaneously increasing the risk of collateral damage by orders of magnitude.  In his New York Times column referenced above, Pape writes:

“Unlike Libya, where much of the coastal core of the population lived under rebel control, the opposition to Syria’s dictatorial president, Bashar al-Assad, has not achieved sustained control of any major population area. So air power alone would probably not be sufficient to blunt the Assad loyalists entrenched in cities, and a heavy ground campaign would probably face stiff and bloody resistance.”

If arming the rebels is a serious consideration, it is important to consider just how that would be carried out, who would be armed, what the response would be (on both sides), and what difference it would make in the overall battle. If employing air power and standoff weaponry is being proposed, then targeting, ordnance control, and the avoidance of collateral damage – as well as the effectiveness of that course of action – must be taken into consideration. If “boots on the ground” is a realistic option to those calling for intervention – well, a whole host of further issues must be addressed, including the risk of a proxy war with Russia that brings along its own risk (however small it might be) of further international escalation.

All of this is not to declare outright that a Syrian intervention to be outside the realm of propriety or possibility.  However, it is incumbent on those who are calling, to use Foust’s term, for America and NATO to become a sort of “Team America for R2P” to address these and other issues that such action faces, and to present coherent and specific plans for the intervention they are proposing.   Additionally, given the current situation in Libya mere months after the conclusion of NATO action there, it is important that conditions in Syria both during and after the proposed intervention, and over the longue duree following the conclusion of offensive operations, be both considered and adequately planned for.

Until then, it is probably best for all involved if the talk of a Syria intervention remains just that, despite the terrible human cost of Assad’s actions.

COMMENTS

  • The_Gadfly

    of how we go about these sorts of things, and along the way, that’s always a necessary and legitimate question. I submit that in this instance, before we get to that question there is an even more fundamental problem which needs to be confronted: Assad maintains his power because the Russians and the Chinese want him there. Are we willing to directly confront them and pay the price to do so?

    In my lifetime, Reagan came closest to being willing to do that, but even he was exceedingly cautious about it. So cautious that it is not unreasonable to ask if he ever really did, or if even he only managed the appearance of doing so. I myself am of the opinion that we are in a more dangerous situation now vis-a-vie those two countries than we were before Reagan came into office. The reason is that until he “successfully” confronted them and the USSR fell apart we were all aware of the danger and to precautions against it. Now we are not, and without active precautions, may inadvertently step into disaster. Syria and/or Iran may be exactly the places where that disaster occurs.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …and would provide tremendous secondary-gain.

    Russia/China/Iran would lose; Turkey would be reminded “behaviorally” of the benefits of maintaining a NATO-alliance.

    Coalitions have existed for years, among them one that has been headed by Sherkoh Abbas [a Kurd], who has eschewed involvement of the Muslim Brotherhood; also, Iraq could be of-assistance, noting that many refugees have resided there for years.

    The idea of imposing a no-fly zone [proposed, it may be recalled, by Rick Perry...derided inappropriately@ the time] would be punitive, would send a “message,” and would [most importantly] facilitate delivery of humanitarian aid.

    Hums isn’t contiguous to Turkey, but Israel could help America in logistical planning to reach that site; this would also demonstrate to the Gulf States [who lead the Arab League] the benefits of relating with the West.

    It is not necessary to “lead from behind” and it is necessary to facilitate regime-change.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      is that these actions don’t take place in a vacuum,. Anything we do that would hurt Russia, China, or Iran (or cause them to “lose,” as you put it) would provoke an opposing reaction by those opponents. What that reaction might entail is a matter of serious concern.

      The call for a no-fly zone makes little more sense now than it did when it was called for by a presidential candidate months ago; as I note above, the mission crept (more accurately, leapt) far beyond a simple NFZ in Libya before any real gains were realized from it.

      The issue is simply far more complicated than most commentators – particularly those in favor of intervention – seem willing to consider.

      • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

        true, the Russians/Chinese/Iranians would react, but we would have the rest of the world behind us.

        true, mission-creep is a plausible outcome, but the result in Syria [i'm watching bombings on FNC as I type this] could easily be envisioned as comparable [in the short-term] to that of Libya.

        but unrelated, because, quoting Einstein, “everything should be explained as simply as possible, but not moreso.”

        HERE, a murderous dictatorship that supports terrorism can be displaced, and all contiguous countries would benefit in the process.

    • ronlsb

      Syria is a nation surrounded by other Muslim countries (Israel excepted, of course). If this is such a disaster, let Syria’s fellow Muslims come to their rescue. Millions have died in Africa over the last few decades because of genocide by Muslims against Christians and nobody raised a finger, including the US. Now a few thousand Syrians die and the world is coming to an end unless we intervene. I don’t think so.

    • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

      Getting involved in another worthless war in the mid east will in no way be to our benefit, and will certainly be a help to our enemies.

      Do you think that we could just go in and set up a democratic government with no problems? I am sure that it will work out just as well as it did in Iraq right?

      Facilitate regime change? You mean like the regime change we got in Egypt? Yeah, that’s a big improvement.

      Do you think this is still the year 1956 and all we have to do is show up and we can make the world do whatever we want to?

      Do you think that ten years of constant warfare have not sapped our military and stretched us thin? Do you think we have the money anymore for endless adventurism? Have yo ever read the histories of Athens, Rome, and the British Empire?

      Some of you people are making me draw closer and closer to the Ron Paul point of view.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    Notwithstanding the always brilliant Dr. Coates, I think we hardly have a case in the past few “interventions” this administration initiated for another. It appears Egypt is slipping into some type of, and I will be kind, Islamic theocracy or perhaps autocracy and Libya has been exposed to the same drift. I believe both are on a very dangerous anti-western movement for years to come. That would, by the way. all be to the glee of Russia and China.

    Frankly, I believe years from now Mr. Obama will be remembered as “the man who lost the Middle East” or at a minimum “the man who lost Egypt”. That he could not build in a meaningful way on our experiences in Iraq simply boggles the mind. He has plundered any goodwill which existed and ham-handily botched opportunities to help Middle Eastern countries in turmoil achieve democratic outcomes. Word travels fast in the Middle East and if you believe the aggrieved in Egypt, Libya or Syria for that matter don’t view Iraq as a positive outcome to be leveraged for their own purposes, well, I have a bridge to sell you.

    Conclusively, this hardly inspires one that Syria, who is much more capable militarily and has better control over pro-Assad forces, will be easily defeated, controlled and more importantly- organized into some type of meaningful democratic state.

    That does not mean I completely oppose some type of help for the civilians being slaughtered. Nor do I believe Syria is any less important. Actually quite the opposite. Syria is a critical Achilles heal which would help crumble other anti-democratic regimes in places such as Lebanon and would eliminate a stalwart of Iran- to name a few. But I truly believe this President does not have the foresight, philosophy, judgment, global political goodwill and vision to make an intervention produce anything other than another chaotic, dangerous outcome.

    • wbb1950

      well said. He is incapable of formulating any sort of strategy beyond a re-election strategy. To paraphrase Clausewitz for him governing is simply campaigning by a different means.

    • aesthete

      as a result of our intervention in Iraq, outside of very small pockets of modernizers who were already inclined to view us favorably. The perception on “Arab street” of OIF was not generally a good one. As far as “anti-democratic regimes” go, they are for the moment the only thing holding back Islamist tendencies in most of the countries in the Middle East right now. Saudi Arabia’s monarchy is attempting to codify its laws by writing them in a codex for the first time; this is an effort which is unpopular among the people and the clergy. Bahrain’s monarchy recently legalized many equalities for women, such as the right to vote and to drive without supervision. This is opposed by a majority in that country, including women. The results of the Iranian, Egyptian, and Libyan popular revolutions speak for themselves. Iraq and Afghanistan post-democracy exhibit these same tendencies. To be frank, the ME is a terrible place for democracy, and the popular tendency is not favorable to freedom or pluralism.

      Obama’s policy in the Middle East is characteristically terrible, but it has precedent in prior administrations.

  • Academic Elephant

    Which was to my understanding the basis for the action in Libya, the point of my post was that we do not have exclusively humanitarian interests in Syria. As I noted, we have a strategic opportunity to wound Iran through destablizing the Assad regime, which makes Syria a more logical candidate in my judgment for military engagement than Libya. Hence my confusion over the administration’s assertion that the differences between Syria and Libya make Syria less worthy of military support.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      Fits very well into the template of Democrat administrations vastly preferring intervention/war in places where the US has no strategic interests to those places where we do. That alone is head-scratchingly consistent here.

      • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

        …due both to its physical and geopolitical locale.

        • Academic Elephant

          I’m not sure where the disagreement is.

          • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

            …specifics and consideration of short and long term effects, which many calls for intervention seem to discount or ignore.

            Your call for consistency was a good one; while there’s clearly no consistent foreign policy or intervention template being use by the Obama administration, though, it also appears that a lesson taken from Libya was “well, let’s not do that again anytime soon” – particularly if, as Pape argued in the NYT, there’s actual risk or danger involved.

            I’m not saying that’s the smartest attitude, but it seems to be the prevailing one among those who are currently making foreign policy decisions in this administration.

          • Academic Elephant

            “Victoria Coates recently wrote a post calling for a humanitarian intervention in Syria on behalf of the opposition and civilians who are being killed daily by Bashar al-Assad?s regime…While I have the utmost respect for Dr. Coates, I am hesitant to agree with her in this case.”

            If I had indeed written on the need to intervene solely on humanitarian grounds I would be hesitent to agree with myself as well, but this does not appear to be the case to my reading.

          • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

            but I read it as a call for (a) consistency in foreign policy (particularly interventionism) and (b) a humanitarian intervention in Syria akin to that undertaken in Libya, with (b) being partially justified by the strategic interests we have in Syria proper and in the region as a whole. Is that both fair and correct?

            My argument is not that humanitarian intervention is never justified, that some consistency in our foreign policy would be a bad idea, or that we lack the strategic interests in Syria to at very least make us pay very close attention to what is transpiring there (and at most, cause us to intervene). Rather, I’m calling for this to be thought through by those agitating for immediate military action, both in light of the Libya action and its aftermath, and in light of the myriad potential effects and consequences of any action that we may take in Syria.

          • The_Gadfly

            I see in your post a call for a consistent, thoughtful policy that advances US and humanitarian interests. I see the same thing in Jeff’s piece. Your piece is on the policy and theory level. Jeff’s in on the implementation level, focusing particularly on the crap planning which has been done at the level in the past. What I hear Jeff saying is “I don’t want to feed US soldiers into a grist mill because the administration hasn’t fracking bothered to properly plan another one of your PR adventures.” Regretably, you take a bit of collateral damage in the process.

            What’s missing here is that we don’t have anyone responsible in the current administration, not even Panetta. IF we had someone responsible I’d say you are right on policy and framework, Jeff is right on planning, and that we need to commit the resources necessary to advance both freedom and US interests. Lacking that, I’m with the ‘stay home’ crowd. Not because I don’t want Syrians to be free, but because I can too easily imagine an outcome where they are not free and even more of the world is inflamed against the US.

            Maybe in a year we’ll have a chance to do something right. But a year is a long time when we’re already positioning ourselves to lose Iraq and Afghanistan because of fecklessness. So it’s best not to allow The Big 0 to further exacerbate the situation with ill-planned adventures elsewhere.

          • aesthete

            is not the same thing as a positive case for intervention.

        • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

          n/t

    • Marcus_Traianus

      …but our options are very limited if we expect positive outcomes.

      I believe you made several excellent points. Not the least of which was there appears to be no consistent, somewhat predictable approach by this administration and DoS. This exemplifies the dangerous headless-chicken, unpredictably meandering, foreign policy of this administration that will haunt us for years.

      To wit, if one sees and communicates an “Arab Spring” is in progress you would have to believe that knowing so, there would be a consistent, communicable plan for assisting that process. That includes priorities, proactive coalition building and plans which consider different permutations. That ultimately ensures there are calculations for actions, and unfortunately in some cases, inaction. We can’t be all things to all people and shameless, immodest political speech is not a substitute for good, cogent policy.

      If anything, this universally indicates the inept weakness of Mr. Obama’s and Ms. Clinton’s foreign policy which appears mainly based on political opportunism, There is no coalition building, leadership or articulated and globally understood principles akin to the last administration or numerous others before it. It is also one more indicative as to why we should have not been engaged in Libya- which I would argue has limited and constrained our ability to intervene in this otherwise preeminent situation.

      • http://xmmlbchat.blogspot.com katesmith

        Rather than Syria, the first problem is America-hating radical leftists make decisions about America today. When Obama says “we” think thus and so about Syria he’s not speaking on my behalf or what I consider to be America. Everything he does is with the worst intentions for America. We have no money anyway to fund military actions though the GOP will give Obama whatever he wants. The “we” who is running this country today is interested in the following: stealing the last dollar out of the American economy (which is accomplished by volunteering us as a 24/7 military cleanup service that will go anywhere in the world at the expense of the US taxpayer and at the behest of the UN R2P), and destroying Israel. A top Obama aid, Samantha Power, listened to one of his early speeches and broke down crying at how terrible America is. Obviously she agreed with the vicious manner in which he described “us.” She also wrote a book about America’s involvement in genocides over the past century.

        • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

          …and we can’t worry if BHO gains politically in the process.

  • retrocon87

    The difference between Libya and Syria are the geopolitics. Unlike Qaddafi who was essentially just a lunatic on the periphery of the Middle East, Syria is smack dab in the center of the region, the key Russian ally in the Mideast (and effectively the last one they’ve had after the Egyptians defected from the Soviet bloc in the 1970s), and Iran’s critical ally in the Arab world. No one freaking out about human rights seems to pay attention to the fact that there has been a pretty continuous revolt by the majority Shia in Bahrain against the dictatorial Sunni government and not only has NATO done nothing, but we actually stood by while the Saudi-led GCC sent troops into Bahrain to brutally crush the rebellion last year– the reason being that we need Arab political support against Iran and the Fifth Fleet is based in Bahrain. On the surface, removing Assad would make tremendous sense politically (it would be an absolutely critical blow to Iran/Hezbollah) but it will be a little difficult to claim with a straight face that we’re doing it strictly on “humanitarian grounds” when we do nothing when majority Shia are getting crushed by a Sunni dictator in Bahrain but then we start bombing the hell out of Damascus when an Iranian-allied Alawite-Shia minority government is killing Sunnis. When the issues here are Russia losing its last major ally in the region and striking a geopolitical death-blow to Iran, it’s not exactly surprising that people are a little more worried about what the potential fallout from this would be than they were about what would happen in Libya. The Middle East is already on the verge of total war because of Israel and the Iranian nuclear program, and if that happens and the price of oil spikes, that will probably be the final nail in the coffin of the European economy and probably will not do much help to us either… of course it is disgusting to see what the Syrians are doing, but there are much broader implications here than just “humanitarian concerns for the poor people of Homs.”

    • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

      Let’s start with the “telling” conclusion: “The Middle East is already on the verge of total war because of Israel and the Iranian nuclear program.” NO, the reason for acute-distress is TOTALLY because of Iran…NOT Israel.

      Let’s continue with the postulated sequellae: “…if that happens and the price of oil spikes, that will probably be the final nail in the coffin of the European economy and probably will not do much help to us either.” When the issue of addressing Iranian-Nukes is discussed, the alternatives are generally framed as “bad” [intervention] vs. “worse” [they get the bomb]. Here, the alleged downside-risk is hardly comparable, particularly when noting the potential-advantage [which would include ameliorating the Iranian-potency to nuke-up]. So, perhaps it would “help us” as well, for America would have acted in a fashion that is c/w my tagline ["...truth, justice, and the American Way"] to promote American Exceptionalism.

      Finally, citing [and down-playing] the plight of those in Homs vs. noting [and up-playing] the Bahrain-conflict creates a level of “moral equivalency” that would make BHO proud.

      • retrocon87

        OK, first of all, I am a Jewish AIPAC member– not a Ron Paul supporter. The statement that “The Middle East is already on the verge of total war because of Israel and the Iranian nuclear program” is a statement of fact… if you read it somehow to mean that I was assigning blame to Israel for it, then either you’re misinterpreting it or I worded it badly. It is a statement of fact, though, that Israel and Iran may wind up in a war pretty imminently. If you ask me who’s fault it is, it is Iran’s fault, but the statement that “Israel and Iran are on the verge of war” is a fact, not just some kind of “crazy Ron Paul propaganda statement.”

        The point I was making was that the objective right now is to figure out how to avoid it somehow while still bringing Iran under control. You can claim that’s impossible (and it very well might turn out to be), but there are legitimate points to be made for the importance of at least “trying” somehow to keep things calm for the sake of trying to maintain some semblance of economic stability. When things are on the verge of blowing up already (even if it is Iran’s fault, which it is) the question is who the hell needs a NATO intervention right now for regime change in Syria to replace an anti-Israel Shiite government with an anti-Israel Sunni government and in the process blowing up the entire region???? Yes, Assad is aligned with Iran, but many in Israel actually think Assad is better for Israel than whatever the alternative would be because as a dictator all he cares about is remaining in power and he knows full-well that ever picking a fight with Israel would mean the IAF leveling his entire regime infrastructure to the ground in a period of about 4 seconds.

        As far as Bahrain goes, I’m sorry, but no, I don’t see any humanitarian difference between a Sunni government slaughtering Shiites and a Shiite government slaughtering Sunnis. The only reason thousands are dead in Syria and not Bahrain is because evidently the GCC was better at violently crushing a rebellion than Assad is. You support knocking out the Assad regime because it would be a strategic blow to Iran… saying it is “for humanitarian reasons” is disingenuous when there are humanitarian disasters all over the planet.

        • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

          …noting that alliance with AIPAC does not afford instant-cred.

          1. Even if the possibility of an Iranian-Israeli missile-exchange may be imminent, this is not equivalent to inveigling the entire region. Thus, amendment accepted.

          2. Peaceful efforts have consistently failed and, thus, you are correct when you claim I may be correct when predicting that FUTURE “peaceful” efforts won’t work. THEREFORE, you cannot emulate an ostrich; the alternative cannot be permitted. If a pathway against Iran is via Syria, then so-be-it; governmental stability is an argument more from the Kadima than from Likud. [You are again revealing AIPAC-leanings.]

          3. Bahrain is different, period; indiscriminate bombings of civilians haven’t been occurring for months-after-months. And invoking the canard that there is a problem anywhere else in the world simply doesn’t resonate in this hyperacute setting.

          You may not be aligned with Ron Paul, but you appear to be “starring” in cinema that he might have produced/directed.

          • aesthete

            when it’s reached a specific number? I wasn’t aware that human rights were contingent on . The reason that thousands aren’t dead in Bahrain is that it’s a small country and dissent was crushed very effectively.

            Sorry to say, but there’s really nothing humanitarian about our policies in the ME. There are no good options in the region, truth be told — but the most ill-conceived suggestions and policies for the ME since the conclusion of the Cold War have undoubtedly sprung from the minds of self-declared humanitarians.

          • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

            …when ongoing slaughter exists, as it does in Syria [and it's worsening].

          • Scope

            It behooves me to find that many would rather turn a blind eye to the slaughter in Syria. I watched what was being reported with the then ongoing battle in Libya. There were some fighting the Gadafi regime that came forward and claimed their alligence to the Muslim Brotherhood, if I am not mistaken. We watched many times with the old beat up pick up trucks, outfitted with anti-aircraft missiles. They took over regions, and then were pushed back, and then they made progress yet again. They had weapons supplied by someone. What I am watching coming out of Syria, from those risking their lives to get the massacre out there to the world, is just absolute slaughter of the Syrian people. I’ve seen the carnage with little children and women just being gunned down and killed or maimed. They have no weapons, and no way to fight back against the Assad military. I’ve heard reports of bombing of resident homes, where the people are trying to stay out of the way of the gunfire and random and senseless killing of the Syrian population. God in Heaven, other than the WMD argument, didn’t we go after Hussein for mass murder of his own people? He was chemically attacks the Muslim sects that were not a part of his own belief system, and then burying them in mass graves. I have never felt as emotional about any mass genocide as I have hurt in my heart for the innocent Syrian people. As one of those reporting from a secret location said, the number of people being killed is increasing daily, while the world “discusses” what to do, if anything. I’m certain Ron Paul would say we just need to mind our own business. And what happens if then they come for us?

          • aesthete

            Yes, Scope, all of the opposition to Gadhaffi was made up of bloodthirsty murderers aping for the blood of children. An oppressive government had nothing to do with it. That’s why Obama’s intervention abroad was bad.

            Conversely, all of the opposition in Syria wants puppies and lollipops. That’s why Obama is bad for not supporting our intervention in Syria.

            In reality, the proximate causes for both revolutions, and the demographic composition of both groups of rebels, is very similar in nature. Seriously, if you oppose Libya on humanitarian grounds, and support Syria on the same grounds, then you’re either misinformed or a massive hypocrite with partisan blinders.

          • aesthete

            and if you’re heartbroken now, just wait until those oh-so-endearing rebels get their hands on the Christian and Alawite populations of Syria.

            Springtime for Arabs has been nothing more than a gigantic, all-around humanitarian disaster.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            re Libya and Syria. Massacre-prevention is pretty broad. And in Syria, yes, I am converted after Egypt’s cold spring and sharia in Iraq’s constitution (thank ‘ski for converting me on this): I am not confident in what the Arab street will replace known bad guys with…more later

          • Scope

            for humanitarian relief that you would ever agree with? or is it more your position that the US never should get involved because we are broke, and no human life is worth the money it would cost us to save any lives, if there isn’t a strategic reason, aka what can we gain, for saving those lives. Logic has never been married to emotion or morality, it is just bald faced black and white, and what stays in my personal wallet. You have been one of the most cold people I’ve seen here.

          • aesthete

            From the perspective of a “world citizen”, as it were, I endorse any action which can be proven to increase human liberty anywhere and always: if the UK government decided tomorrow that it would increase its military budget to intervene in Africa and establish a campaign to create rule of law, and it had a workable plan to that effect, I would be very pleased, indeed.

            As a US citizen and voter, I’m obligated to look beyond my personal sentiments when it comes to how taxpayer money (i.e. the money that government forcibly confiscates from my fellow citizens) is used. It’s very hard to justify vague missions with vague goals in that context: generally speaking, that is what most humanitarian missions look like.

            Most humanitarian intervention does very little, if anything, for the target country long-term. Do you still remember Haiti, and know what we’re doing there to help the situation? If you do, then I both applaud your commitment and would note that you are part of a very small minority. I have been following what’s been going on in Haiti (it’s a country of personal interest, and also a country that my church puts emphasis on in missions), and the change from 2 years ago to today is frustratingly minor. Mind you, this is in a country with a well-known and fixed initial problem (hurricanes) that is close to us, and which does not have any demographic problems to get in our way. When we get involved in conflicts not our own, where there are age-old hatreds and conflicts, and where a sudden shift in balance of power can result in unexpected changes between armed groups, little good results. It is not a kindness to merely shift the balance of power in a country with little thought as to what the repercussions will be.

            You’re correct that the above does not reflect a transitive emotional state.

          • Scope

            due to the natural disaster doesn’t ever deserve the same place in the discussion. It was a natural disaster, and yes the American people came out in droves to help with that relief effort, myself included with a monetary donation. The American people are just that way. It didn’t matter that the ousted dictatorial leader rode his white horse back into Haiti when they were down and hurting. The US did nothing to prevent that, and the Clinton’s surely didn’t object.

            I am not taking about a country that had a natural disaster. Hell the US citizens ponied up for the natural disaster in Japan with the Tsumani. What is happening in Syria is not a natural disaster, it is a government disaster. My main point is that Syrian citizens are being slaughtered in their own homes. They are trying to hide out from the government slaughter. They are not threatening the Syrian government. They are trying to stay alive. They have no way to stop the genocide.

            In the Libyan upheaval, we saw the rebels, who were armed, again by someone, and they at times seemed to be gleeful in every time they pushed back against Gadafi. Have you seen the first indication that the Libyan people have had any slightest chance against the massacre? Again, what would happen in the US if the government is successful in removing the right to own arms from it’s citizens? We would be the same sitting ducks as the Syrians. To me, when we turn our back on the citizens that are begging for our help, just as the Iranians were in their revolution a few years ago, they can turn their backs on us, and say, you turned your back on us when we needed you, now we don’t give a dang about you. We could have garnered some allies, but we turned our backs on them. We deserve what we get, when it could have been so different.

          • aesthete

            Is there any country on Earth that would help us if we were besieged by our own government? I think not — not Israel, and not the UK. They have their own problems, and probably wouldn’t be able to help us even if they wanted to. We’ve helped lots of people out in the world: mostly, they’re ungrateful. That’s fine — I don’t think that our foreign policy should be contingent on gratefulness abroad — but it is doubtful that we would experience the sort of returns that you suggest, if we ever find ourselves in their position.

            When it comes to revolutions, most end up being more similar to the French Revolution than to the American one. I wish that were not the case — but it is, isn’t it? What I’ve seen from most of our humanitarian interventions is that they tend to enable the currently oppressed group to ascend power and oppress those people who were marginally connected to the groups that were oppressing them. I don’t think that Syrians deserve what they’re government is doing to them. I didn’t think that Libyans deserved the way Gaddhafi treated them. However, I don’t think that some poor guy living in Tripoli and working as a cog in Gadhaffi’s machine deserves death, banishment, or shelling — his kids sure don’t! I don’t think black Africans, or the “wrong kind” of Libyans, deserve to be persecuted. I don’t think that Libyan women deserve the treatment that they’ll receive under Libya’s new Sharia-compliant government. Trading in one set of tyrants for another, and having the victim and the oppressor switch roles, does nothing but provide more fuel for the fire.

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            that U.S. intervention is not equal. What I mean to say is where does it begin and end. There are places all over the world where people are being oppressed. Why do we intervene in some and not others?

            Now I freely admit that I’m in over my head with regard to foreign affairs and conflicts, but it does seem to me that I ask a valid question. Or am I completely off base here?

            I’m not an isolationist, but I think we need to have clearer goals and strategies when we intervene. And I do get concerned at the amount of time and money we spend.

          • aesthete

            that the countries whose causes we choose to champion tend to be those which have no easy answers. Perhaps if we were, say, overthrowing the regime in Cuba it might be different: arguably, there is a tradition that allows for sane government to return. As it stands, we’ve committed ourselves to “freeing” people so that they can enslave themselves under Sharia, and all manner of anti-colonialist madmen and demagogues.

            I agree with you that there is a basic inequality and arbitrary nature to our interventions that must chafe for countries where the US doesn’t help — and rightly so. Someone upthread was talking about Bahrain. Yemen is another one of our erstwhile “allies” which has committed to killing its own citizens for protesting. IMO, the best an safest course of action is for us to pursue our interests as a nation, to set a model for the world, and to have good pro-liberty propaganda: a weak, broke America that does not uphold its values domestically is of no use to anyone.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            later

          • aesthete

            that will be a miracle, IMO.

            We should not be in the habit of leaping before looking, especially when we are strapped for resources and when our experience at setting up governments abroad that protect rights is somewhat poor.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            are not lost on me, I assure you.

          • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

            …by Clapper included the conclusion that no sanctions have had any effect on the Iranian Nuke program.

            Noting Sino-Soviet [and the term was chosen purposefully] resistance, it’s unlikely sanctions would ever work…in time.

            This is a potential world war, I hope you agree, for the Islamists haven’t completed fighting the Crusades.

          • Scope

            “This is a potential world war, I hope you agree, for the Islamists haven?t completed fighting the Crusades.”

            And China more likely, but also Russia probably in collaboration, are looking to become the next “superpower.” Obama is all but handing it to them on a silver platter with his weakness, or something much more sinister.

            Do you remember that foreign policy was never any big part of the debates with our candidates? The leftists couldn’t bring up a subject that would paint Obama with a very faulty brush.

          • Scope

            I’m sure it did not escape you that Israel today tested their missile defense system, and it was very successful. Someone on CNN said that the system was build with the help of the US. I can only wonder if that is true, or if the leftists just have to give Obama credit where no credit is due.

          • jakeofalltrades

            I have read of this cooperation for a decade now.

          • funwithknives

            Iron Dome, David’s Sling and Arrow 2 are just the most recent. It started WWAAAYYY before Barry got there. Get “Aviation Week” and it’s free offshoot, “Defence Technologies International” and get your eyes opened up. You’ll see things the MSM never, ever touches.

          • aesthete

            In a conventional war between the patchwork of states in the Islamic world and the Western world, Mecca and Medina would be cinderblocks before Washington DC and New York got a scratch on them. I find the doomsday scenario of conventional warfare in the Middle East to be absolutely laughable: there is some concern with Muslim demographics and social indicators (pretty much none of which has hit us in the US), but none at all when it comes to conventional warfare. We rock when it comes to conventional war, and have the equipment and logistics for it. They don’t.

            BTW, wouldn’t toppling a secular dictator and replacing him with an ummah-friendly government be a victory for the scary Islamists?

  • retrocon87

    NATO will not get involved in any other capacity than just covertly arming the Syrian opposition. Meanwhile it will degenerate into a full-blown civil war with the Turks and GCC supporting the opposition and Iran/Hezbollah supporting Assad. About 50,000+ people will be killed at least if not an all-out sectarian genocide.

  • lizzie

    post-Rwanda military interventions for humanitarian reasons.

    Since I just spent a few days in a comment thread on the exact same issue at The New Republic, and do not want to think I am in a postmodern transnational worldview thread here, just want to offer my general rules about Syria:

    1) yes, it would be good to break Iran’s Shi’a Arc by supporting the mostly Sunni opposition in Syria, especially if that breaks Hezbollah’s grip on Lebanon’s puppet government – a bonus would be the complete disappearance of Hezbollah’s 50,000 missiles deployed since UN Res 1702 authorized the opposite outcome. My point? Who is going to protect Lebanon if Hezbollah is threatened by outside military intervention in Syria?

    2) Please leave Israel out of this. Syria has been officially at war with Israel since 1948. Israel formally annexed the Golan Heights after the 1967 war, but the mostly Druse population continues to be too afraid to accept Israeli citizenship as long as an Assda uses military force against ‘traitors’.

    3) Syria’s Baathist secularism protects the significant Christian population, some oof the descendants of the Turkish expulsion of Christians in the 1920′s, some from Iraq’s Christian population forced to flee since 2003. So, yes Russia wants to keep their naval base in Syria, but support for Assad also means protection for Syria’s Christians, and other minorities, although Syria’s Kurds know they remain the minority unprotected by either side.

    Instead of using Libya as a precedent for when to follow UN mandate of “Responsibility to Protect”, everyone should be questioning the premise of R2P.

    As for the “USA should always lead?” Why? NATO is a mutual defense treaty. Why is it so impossible to imagine a situation where a NATO signatory leads and asks the rest of NATO, including the USA, to support?

    Perhaps Ms. Coates should return to the study of art history, and let the Sunnis and Shi’a have their civil war inside the borders of Syria and Iraq – a fitting example to all who fret over the legacy of colonial borders.

    There is absolutely no good outcome for Syria that does not include a serious redrawing of borders, and if you do not think such maps are being studied in Turkey and Saudi Arabia, I have a bridge to sell you…

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …and the tenuous/deteriorating status of Lebanon provides another reason to encourage intervention.

  • wbb1950

    Margaret Moor: Father, that man’s bad.
    Sir Thomas More: There’s no law against that.
    William Roper: There is: God’s law.
    Sir Thomas More: Then God can arrest him.
    Share this quote
    William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
    Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
    William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
    Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!

  • edintexas

    “…UN-approved intervention succeeded in its ultimate goal of preventing Qaddafi from crushing the rebels.”

    No matter what the UN Security Council thought it was voting on, or what the language of the resolution plainly stated, the “ultimate goal” of the intervening countries (i.e. NATO countries) was regime change. Ghadaffi was an easy target. He had no real friends in the world, even the Arab world, and he was no threat to any country (he had voluntarily given up his nascent nuclear program after the Iraq invasion, he had even cooperated with the US in the “War on Terror”).

    So NATO, with Dear Leader providing the initial air muscle and continued logistics muscle, decided this was a perfect opportunity to establish the precedent that other countries could intervene openly in a civil war without declaring war on, or already being at war with, the government of the country*. Luckily no country decided to intervene on the government’s behalf, for NATO had a hard enough time with no opposition to their attacks.

    * Before anyone notes French involvement in the American Revolution, France provided covert support and ultimately recognized the independence of the American Colonies. A few weeks after recognition, Britain declared war on France. So Britain was at war with France prior to the French government’s active military involvement in the war.

  • moonmad

    If we hadn’t abandoned Iraq. We could have operated covertly from western Iraq. In a sense reversed what Syria did early in the Iraq war. Then the rebels could have had a place to go. If we had been sitting there with The 1st Cav ready to create a safe zone Assad would likely been less willing to go murderous on his own people. We could conduct a drone war there too. Also we’d be in a better position to interdict Iran’s resupply routes. A lot more options to work with from low level to high level.

    The reason for leading is you have a lot more say in the action and outcome. If you follow you get the muddle that Libya was. Like at the end in the Pacific the US pretty much told or maneuvered that. Just wait some future president will get pilloried because of our actions in Libya. Europe won’t get blamed, NATO won’t be blamed the US will. See GW Bush and current economic problems.

    I’m tired of the pottery barn rule. Victors in wars had the choice of pillaging and leaving or building up something that didn’t pose a threat. This in no new civilized thing. Those with more strategic thinking won’t leave enemy to rekindle war. If you make the cost of war high enough an aggressor will take longer to engage in it. I’m sure these thoughts are in some strategy books

    • aesthete

      They abandoned us, as it were.

      • moonmad

        We didn’t try to exercise any leverage at all. More Stupidity from the Ivy leaguers populating the State Dept. Plus it’s obvious Obama wanted out and would accept any humiliation just to achieve the result of leaving.

        • aesthete

          When the PM and most members of the Iraqi government, as well as a large majority of its people, repeatedly rejects your pleas to stay, you either have the choice of abiding by that decision, or making clear how little you respect the toy government you set up for them.

  • http://www.baseballcrank.com Dan McLaughlin

    Now, I agree that the Libyan adventure was not well-thought-out and is as likely as not to create worse headaches down the road than we had before, so I’m not one to say that if we fought in Libya, we should fight in Syria. But the case for wanting to be rid of Assad is stronger.

    As you note, the calculus of what to do has to consider whether we’d be backing an opposition with any chance to win, or at ant rate to cause Assad troubles that will keep him occupied.

    I think we should definitely be assisting the rebels, although I lack the detailed intelligence on the situation to say whether that should be with arms, communication assistance, etc. I’d rather we do that than interneve ourselves militarily, for a number of the reasons you note. As in Libya, if we fight, we must fight to win.

    • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

      We have no dog whatsoever in this fight. What ever takes over after Assad would be as bad or worse.

      The only thing in our best interest is a continued low level civil war and a weakened Syrian regime which is turned inward.

      That is our best bet.

      • aesthete

        We don’t know what we’re getting out of a Sunni-inspired revolution. It is doubtful that whatever emerges will be satisfactory from a human rights perspective, and dubious that a popular government organized on Islamist, anti-colonialist principles will be amenable to US or Israeli influences. A weak dictator can be bought. A strong theocrat can only be angered.

        Keep in mind that, while the Sunni/Shia division discourages long-term cooperation, the Iranian state is not above using Sunni aspirations to its own advantage, and to cause chaos that benefits them in the short term. In the context of Syria, it is easy to see how an Iran intent on obtaining nuclear weapons could stir the pot in a post-civil war Syria so that we’ll tie up our resources and attention on them while Iran continues to expand its own sphere of influence and to work on its nuclear program.

        • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

          …is superseded by islamism.

          • aesthete

            in Iraq and Lebanon would beg to differ.

          • funwithknives

            please include The Ba’Hai of Iran. They are an offshoot of Islam, are they not? {please correct me if I’m wrong } And they were ostracized and driven out, after much persecution.
            Wasn’t the Iran/Iraq war difference-driven? {i e, sunni/shia} All those Human-Wave dead were Iranian and they were Shia, correct?
            while I’m on the topic, isn’t the ruling class of Muslims in Syria Alewite? Thinkin’ I need a program, here.

          • aesthete

            Even though they emerged from Islam, orthodox Muslims see them as either apostates or (if they feel nice on a given day) “people of the Book” (i.e., dhimmis).

            The Iran-Iraq war was driven by Hussein’s fear of a Shi’a Islamic revolution within his borders, as well as fear of the new Iranian regime’s support for same and Iran’s perceived weakness in the light of their recent revolution. Saddam’s Baathist regime was itself secular, but drew mostly from Sunnis in Iraq and other minorities (Chaldean Christians, for example). The conflict was not itself a Sunni-Shia conflict, but some of the proximate causes and motivations were on account of this ancient split.

            The Baathist Syrian government operates on a similar principle as the Baathist party in Iraq: they’re basically fascists who believe that the state should control all, and that all should give glory to the state. Power is centered around the Alawite minority (essentially, a syncretic Islamic cult), but there is also substantial participation from the Druze and Christian minorities, particularly in the civil bureaucracy.

          • jakeofalltrades

            I believe both your position and Dr. Sklaroff’s are equally reasonable.

            I think the synthesis of the two captures the true picture. Two contradictory forces at work in fundamentalist* Islam: ecumenicism versus orthodoxy. Christianity has similar internal forces – for quite similar reasons and even with a similar historical backdrop, when you look at Roman Catholicism versus Protestantism, and even within Protestantism itself.

            At least Christianity isn’t violent anymore.

            * – I don’t mean “fundamentalist” to have a negative connotation. I consider myself to be a fundamentalist.

          • aesthete

            Their ecumenicism is about where Protestants and Catholics were at during the Thirty Years’ War: mostly theoretical, not supported by clergy, and largely non-existent.

            I recall from our back-and-forth that the examples put forth were either the Sudan, or non-equal relationships. I’ll concede that there was more cooperation between Shia and Sunni than my statement on that thread implied (sorry! :) ), but when the body count in Shia-Sunni conflicts over the past 50 years alone is so staggeringly high, conspiracy theories about their unified efforts in the shadows against us strain credibility. There are deep, internal divisions within the Muslim world that prevent that sort of thing — divisions which Israel has used to great benefit in establishing itself and forging a temporary reprieve from war with its neighbors.

          • jakeofalltrades

            Though surely there are plenty of minor ones, there seems to be a limit on how big those can get and how long they can last. We agree on that. I think the dominant force is the schism, but here’s the trick:

            I think both forces operate inside each fundamentalist muslim, and environmental factors control the extent to which each force is expressed and predominates. I think that, under the right conditions, sunni and shiite could fight a multinational war on the same side.

            I think the schism force is stronger than the ecumenical one, such that instances of ecumenism in the Islamic world are short-lived and small-scale. I’m presently wondering what events – if any – could reverse that polarity.

          • aesthete

            in the same way that it is true that ecumenical movements in Christianity gained purchase in the 19th and 20th centuries. I do wonder, however, to what extent this was predicated on the Enlightenment, and the principles that motivated the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation. Put another way, we started fighting because of well-articulate differences in theology and rules surrounding the clergy. We stopped fighting about religion at about the same time that both nationalism and Enlightenment-age ideologies started to make their mark on the world.

            To what extent will these factors be replicated in the Muslim schism, where the difference was primarily one of who was the anointed successor of Mohammed, and where nationalism and other isms play less of a role (partly because of badly-drawn borders and terrible governmental institutions)? There is potential there, but I’m not sure that it’s a harbinger for anything beyond what we’ve seen in terms of cooperation — at least, for the present time. It is certainly presumptuous to start talking about a unified Shia-Sunni conspiracy or “world war” against “the West” in the near future.

          • jakeofalltrades

            Its absence is detrimental to anti-schismatic forces. Perhaps fatal except for rare expressions of it.

      • funwithknives

        Let them level out their own real estate ,as Russia or china,{or Iran!} will step in regardless. We’ve already shown how we cut and run unless we don’t get dirty {Libya} so why even entertain this thought?
        The instant we get on the ground there, it’s IED time all over again.
        {Who’s The Great Satan?….. We’re The Great Satan!}

        • jakeofalltrades

          Like space-based lasers to shoot anything that crosses out of or into the middle east. The best we can hope for is literal containment.

          We are not going to shepherd a 7th century culture into enlightenment. Enlightenment would require all sorts of illiberal measures and would be temporary at best, as a certain Turk has shown us.

          • aesthete

            “space-based lasers to shoot crosses into the middle east”.

            That would be awesome in an escatological way, I’d think.

          • jakeofalltrades

            :twisted:

  • demsaresatanic

    taxpayer dollars does it take to figure out that Muslims in general hate us and that taking down one mid-east dictator will likely only produce one who hates us just as much if not more. We are already seeing a Muslim Brotherhood takeover in Egypt, likely the same will happen in Libya. The cost of setting up the pseudo-friendly Iraq regime will sooner or later be repaid with an America-hating regime there.