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After a Decade of Operations, Is It Time to Pull the Plug on Afghanistan?

As we hit the 10 1/2 year mark in Afghanistan, the state of trust and confidence between the coalition and the Afghan people is at perhaps its lowest ebb, and support for the war effort is wavering across the political spectrum.  Given this, it appears time to reconsider the current status of our effort there — what have we accomplished, and what do we still hope and reasonably expect to accomplish? — as well as what the future may and should hold.  Below the fold are some questions that need to be considered about our objectives, accomplishments, and expectations in Afghanistan. This list is not exhaustive by any means, and I certainly don’t claim to have all of the answers; in fact, I may not have any of them.  However, they do need to be carefully thought about, and answered, at some point in the immediate future.

First, and perhaps most importantly, it’s critical to note that what the New York Times has called a recent “cascade of missteps and offenses” by the coalition (from the “Kill Team,” to the urinating Marines, to the inadvertent Qu’ran burning, to last weekend’s inexcusable slaughter of sleeping civilians by one rogue and evidently drunk soldier) should not obscure the indisputable fact that moral high ground still exists in this struggle, and that the coalition is firmly in occupation of it.  Taliban spokespersons, among others, can condemn coalition actions as loudly as they wish (and, in such cases as this weekend’s massacre, condemnations are correct); however, while those acts ruin lives and tarnish the coalition image, they do not propel us from the high ground.  Further, those condemnations do not change the fact that those who wage war on civilians daily, killing indiscriminately, throwing acid in the faces of young girls who dare attend school, opening fire on those attending a memorial for this weekend’s slain civilians, and carrying out all other manners of true atrocities.

However, simply fighting those who carry out such atrocities is not a reason to spend ten years, billions of dollars, or thousands of lives halfway across the world — and while breaking the Taliban’s despotic hold on Afghanistan’s government and its people was an added bonus to the initial combat operations in that country, the atrocities committed by that government against its own people was not our initial impetus for war (had it been, we would of course have acted militarily against the Taliban government well before the end of 2001).

As obvious as it is to say, the impetus for war was, of course, the 9/11 attacks, carried out by an al Qaeda that had found safe haven in that Taliban-led country — and now, in the midst of that “cascade of missteps” by soldiers on the ground, those higher up the chain are attempting negotiate an end to the war effort that will almost certainly include some sort of power-sharing role for the Taliban in post-war Afghanistan.

Given this state of affairs, and the flagging support at home for what had been termed the “real war on terror” by those opposed to the Iraq war, it’s clear that the effort in Afghanistan needs to be reconsidered.  Despite a refocusing of national attention on Afghanistan in 2008-2009 ( a topic dealt with in more detail below), everal questions appear to have gone unanswered at that time, as well as both before and since.  The most important of these questions seems the simplest on the surface: what is our goal there?  However, after ten years of fighting, that question is both inexcusably and overwhelmingly difficult to answer — and that and several other questions need to be considered both quickly and completely, and the answers should factor heavily into the U.S.’s decision about our next move(s) in Afghanistan.

Several of the questions below will be corollaries to the original question about our goal in Afghanistan, but the lingering silence in response to this most basic inquiry has swollen to 800-lb gorilla proportions.  Some of the questions below may also seem simplistic or pedantic; however, I’m trying to start from square one here, and these are some basic inquiries that need to be made.  10 1/2 years have gone by since ODA 555 became the first coalition boots on the ground in Afghanistan.  Soldiers have been sent there and to Iraq so many times that many are using both hands to count their total number of combat deployments.  As I noted Sunday (in a rare case of agreement with what Stephen Walt has since written on the topic) these ten years of combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan haven’t been conventional in nature; rather, they have required constant vigilance due to the human terrain involved being an often unrecognizable blend of friendly, neutral, and enemy — not to mention the constant threat of IEDs (given this fact, it’s frankly more surprising to me that incidents like this weekend’s atrocity haven’t happened more frequently, not that such a massacre was carried out at all).

As Dan Drezner has noted, “it’s tough to sound hawkish on a conflict where your rationale for being there has evaporated.”  That apparent “evaporation” is reflected in the maddening unanswerability of the simple question posed above.

Here are a few other questions to consider while we chew on that one:

1. What is the desired end state in Afghanistan? Certainly (hopefully) it isn’t a unified country that operates as a western-style (and pro-western) democracy, because that dish simply isn’t on the menu at the Reality Diner.  Afghanistan is and will continue to be far more splintered than that, with tribes and networks holding power and operating in different regions Are we willing to accept Taliban power sharing?  Based on the ongoing efforts to engage the Taliban in negotiations, it seems safe to assume that we are (this will also be addressed below).  What other components of a post-U.S. Afghanistan do we have in place or in motion, and what do we still hope to put in place before 2014, which is not only when we are scheduled to leave, but when President Karzai reaches his term limit?  As this is considered, it is important to remember that the closer we come to the announced 2014 date of security handover and withdrawal, the less influence we will have over the situation there, both strategically and politically.

2. What was our initial goal and desired end state in Afghanistan (ca. 2001) and how does the current state of affairs measure up?  It’s an inarguable truth that the best laid plans don’t survive first contact.  However, despite media prematurely spewing the term “quagmire” all over the airwaves in October 2001, the lightning-fast initial phase of combat operations went exceptionally well.  Northern Alliance were trained and mobilized, al Qaeda disrupted, and Kabul taken from the Taliban all in a matter of weeks.  Following that initial success, we stood up the Karzai government and began a decade of rotating conventional and SOF troops in and out of the AO, making modest gains in improving quality of life, access to education and health care, and infrastructure, while playing counter-network whack-a-mole and dealing with a growing insurgency fueled by domestic and cross-border sources (stop me when this starts to sound like Iraq ca. 2003-2006, but longer).  What was our initial goal at the time? What was our desired end state? At what point did we come close to achieving it, and how have our actions of the last ten years moved us closer top achieving it? This plays into the next question:

3. What goals have the last ten years of operations in Afghanistan been in pursuit of?  This may seem simple — undermining and disrupting al Qaeda, the Taliban, the Haqqani network, and other organizations opposed to coalition efforts in Afghanistan; improving infrastructure and quality of life; and ensuring that we left Afghanistan with a functioning government and a national security force that was sufficiently trained to be able to protect that government and the nation’s people.  However, while laudable goals, which of these have been achieved, and which are achievable?

4. How did we get from the goals and mission scope of 2001 to those of 2012? At what point, if at all, did we shift the goal posts, changing our original strategy and desired end state and? If we didn’t, should we have? There can be no question that focusing on Iraq, particularly from 2003-2008, caused Afghanistan to play a distant second fiddle, particularly when it came to media attention and the allocation of finite military resources like special operations units.  This reduced our macro-level effort in Afghanistan to the strategic equivalent of treading water, trading some lives and some more money for what amounted to little more than a continuation of the status quo.  Once Iraq was hauled back from the brink in 2007-2008, the outgoing Bush and incoming Obama administrations focused more resources and attention on Afghanistan, but to what end? How were the goals put in place in 2008-2009 different from those forecast in 2001, and why?

Believe it or not, this essay isn’t meant as a personal indictment of President Obama, whose rhetoric on Afghanistan during the 2008 election was backed by almost no knowledge of the situation there whatsoever (despite being  chair of the Senate Subcommittee on Europe, which has jurisdiction over NATO — and, therefore, the operations in Afghanistan — Obama never once held a hearing).  Upon taking office, though, Obama was brought up to speed on coalition efforts there, and his decision to largely continue the strategy laid out at the end of the Bush administration demonstrated both the emptiness of his campaign rhetoric, and the apparent prudence of the Bush/Gates direction based on ground truth in-theater.

However, though the Afghanistan ‘surge’ put in motion by Bush and Gates, and implemented by Obama, put more boots on the ground in-country, thus allowing for more counterinsurgency and stability operations to be conducted, there was no clear communication of just what the goal there was, how it could be achieved, and how or why it differed from our original reason for invading.

Joshua Foust writes:

In a speech outlining his strategy for the war, President Obama boiled it down to three goals: Deny al-Qaida safe haven; prevent the Taliban from overthrowing the government; and build up the Afghan security forces so they can take over as U.S. troops leave. It is a remarkable framework, defined as much by absence as by accomplishment, and in terms so vague as to be impossible to achieve definitively. But it is also a fundamentally political strategic framework, focused on the Afghan government as the defining characteristic of any future Afghan state.

Ten years of military operations, including efforts at counterinsurgency and the use of all tiers of special operations forces to conduct high-value and time-sensitive target hits, are not carried out for no reason or in pursuit of no goal.  However, at some point did (or have) such operations become self-serving, conducted simply for their own sake, and toward no larger end?  Last August’s loss of 31 American service members in a single helicopter shoot-down (including twenty Tier One operators) that took place in the midst of an operation to catch a man who was functionally middle management within the Afghan Taliban seems to be a microcosm of just this issue.  At what point — and how — did the Afghan strategy change so radically that middle-of-the-food-chain Taliban personalities were valued so highly that the tip of America’s uniformed spear was deployed against them? And, if we are in fact negotiating with the Taliban on post-withdrawal power sharing, how can we justify continuing to risk such personnel in action against a group we are actively working to bring to and keep at the negotiating table?  Which takes us to question 5:

5. Was removing the Taliban from any form of political power (or eliminating it altogether) an original goal of the U.S.’s efforts in Afghanistan?  It seems clear that, absent a sudden spontaneous combustion of every Taliban sympathizer in Afghanistan (and across the border in Pakistan), there will be some sort of arrangement that allows the Afghan Taliban to remain not only viable, but in a position of some power following the coalition withdrawal.  If removing the Taliban from power and destroying their ability to regenerate and regain some level of political influence in Afghanistan was an original goal of the coalition effort there, then is there any measure by which we can say we haven’t failed?  The role of the Taliban and their threat to the U.S. and its interests should neither be over- nor understated.  Their greatest offense for us was their creation of a safe harbor for al Qaeda, which allowed the latter to plan and carry out international terror acts.  Now, al Qaeda’s presence is reduced (though it appears to be growing in scope worldwide, if the many claims of “franchises” are to be believed), while the Taliban continues to regenerate.

Further, with their withdrawal from negotiations in the wake of last weekend’s massacre, and what appears to be unity among Afghans (for once) on a position — that of the coalition needing to leave as quickly as possible — it seems even more likely that the fragmented Afghanistan we leave behind will have at its titular helm a virtual corruptocracy, and among its power brokers groups like the Taliban.

6. What are the Afghan National Security Forces capable of? Besides killing coalition troops, of course.  Will the ANSF (ANA and ANP) crumble as soon as their coalition trainers and partners leave? Or are we getting enough quality recruits, and training them quickly and thoroughly enough, that they will be able to provide a measure of security for residents of at least some portions of Afghanistan? If violence picks up again upon the coalition’s departure from the country, how long will the ANSF last before death and desertion decimate its ranks?

These are only a few questions, primarily asked from the 30,000 foot level or higher.  As I noted above, many may seem simplistic, particularly to any readers who have an in-depth knowledge of our Afghan strategy and events on that front.  However, they need to be asked — a fact which itself suggests they haven’t been given their due consideration to date.

At the bottom line, we have this fact: the Afghan people largely have better lives and more rights than they did under Taliban control in 2001 and before.  However, altruism alone doesn’t justify ten years of blood and treasure.  America needs to figure out what it’s doing in Afghanistan besides treading water and waiting for 2014, and it needs to decide which options have the best chance of ensuring the best possible outcome for the security and benefit of America and her interests — because, while altruistic achievement may be a nice bonus, when it comes to a decade-long war it’s the strategic benefit and safeguarded security of the participant that matter most.  Given this, if we aren’t on track to significantly improve our strategic outlook and the security of our homeland and our interests by remaining in Afghanistan any longer than we absolutely must, and we should begin plans to draw down forces even more quickly than previously planned.

COMMENTS

  • snowshooze

    Either ot is us or China who drives the deal…
    Keep your eye on the ball.

    • aesthete

      The bulk of its GDP is comprised foreign aid and opium production. Lithium is not enormously profitable compared to other investments, and not nearly as lucrative as the resources in some of the sub-Saharan African countries. Afghanistan isn’t much more than potential when it comes to mineral rights — and that’s where the Congo has been stuck for decades.

      • zachv

        With the hundreds of billions to a couple of trillion dollars worth of value in minerals and metals in has there. Potential, I think, is an understatement and one of the largest reasons I believe that it will remain a war-torn country for decades to come.

        • miconservative

          the country and how are you going to get it out? it is populated with crazy and unreasonable people who don’t want modern prosperity. they want to return to the 12th century.

          • zachv

            We have no claim to those resources, and it’s not our business to stabilize the region. I only wanted to point out that it’s a rich region.

        • aesthete

          of resources overwhelmingly made up of lithium, concentrated in one spot, and with limited access and ways to get to it. Better than nothing (barring the “resource curse”), but not as good as the DRC, which has diversified resources which can all be extracted simultaneously and more cheaply than lithium in Afghanistan. It would make more economic sense for China to colonize the DRC or a similar country, than for it to start fighting in Afghanistan.

          • zachv

            From what I’ve heard reported, it’s a vast deposit of not just lithium, but billions in gold, cobalt, copper, and iron too.

          • aesthete

            than I am. I remember hearing about these deposits when the story first “broke” in a real sense 1-2 years ago. Before then, all these deposits were assumed to be small to non-existent. It’s more than possible more deposits in easier-to-reach locations have since been discovered. As you allude to above, a rich Afghanistan might not make for a happy Afghanistan. It will be interesting to see how it works out, though, and hopefully this will allow at least some small solace for the Afghan people.

          • funwithknives

            indicate quite a few types of these minerals.Even if it was only lithium it would be still used in a known technology, and that ain’t bad.More world-wide lithium availability could easily equal lower costs per unit, if this is the only mineral.

            Knowing that hindsight is always perfect, think of the benefits if we had assisted early on, in helping them in a real, capitalistic fashion.Using some of the vast amounts of dollars that have been flushed down the rathole of theft and greed that has always permeated this contry’s societies, might have been {seemingly} better spent. Doubtless China, or a proxy will step up and fill the vacuum, post 2014.

    • mike57

      If the developers of the resources are Chinese we would still be able to buy the commodities from the Chinese corporations.

  • miconservative

    nothing to be gained, just more lost American lives. They will never be a Jeffersonian democracy. All we can do is keep fighting the same war that has been going on for 1000 years. Let them fight it. If they become a launching pad for terrorism again we bomb them further into the stone age.

  • zachv

    The intent of Afghanistan was to destabilize the Taliban regime. We did that. A long time ago. We need to get out PRONTO.

    There is no reason for us to be in Afghanistan. All we have done is prop up the Karzi government, which is not well liked or functional, for no reason other than to prop them up.

  • http://www.theantliberalzone.com gunnyg

    and get the heck out. They are not and have NEVER been worth
    one American life. Shoulda just bombed the nation flat in 2001, air-dropped salt by the ton, and made it unliveable for another 500 years. We gained nothing here, only lost.

  • beezle

    Jeff a well written piece on the subject, just wish you had done so 2, 4 6 years ago as you do seem to carry some weight here. The apparent goal from 2001 of ridding the country of AQ and their Taliban supporters/enablers was accomplished by 2002. The population, even Pashto, was on our side then, at least nominally.

    I do think your point #5 is by far the most important. As you well note, at the reality cafe Taliban will remain on the menu (change the name, the dish will be the same.) This should have been as obvious in 2002 as in 2012, just as the fact that the Taliban will never be allowed to offer Afghanistan as safe haven to AQ again. Note that is not synonymous with no Taliban in the country or even none in political power. It is just the realization that the US would immediately take out any such operation.

    It can be difficult to remove pride and ego from the decision making process but until they are how can one say honestly what is to be gained by remaining there and would any short term gains turn out to be long term losses for the US? We need to finally stop thinking and reacting tactically and think strategically, not just about Afghanistan but all of SE Asia.

    Let me close with a question #7: Which Afghanistan would be more stable 5 years after US departure – that of 2003 or that of 2014 and why?

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      And one I don’t have an immediate answer to.

  • libertus

    This is long overdue. The mission of 2012 (whatever in the world that is) is not the same as it was in 2001. The GOP candidates can distinguish themselves from the president (and have a large majority of the public on its side) by saying “enough is enough.” It’s time to bring the troops home, and do it quickly.

    The original mission was won long ago, This current simmering pot of confusion needs to end and let Afghanistan get on with its own internal tribal struggles (the same that has gone on for centuries).

  • swamphermit

    Our Military has become nothing more than a Political Pawn and a whipping boy for Dems and MSM.

    Look at the recent coverage on burning copies of korans that were being used to hide messages by muslims…’desacrated’ by the muslims themselves, but blamed on our troops.

    Now – “The day before the rampage that killed 16 Afghan villagers, the U.S. soldier accused of the mass killings saw his friend’s leg blown off, his lawyer said.”

    We have sent troops into Egypt and Libya to aid radical muslims against out allies…yes, Gaddafi had been working with us. Iran, we fear Iran.

    Until America can treat it’s Military responsibly, America needs to bring ALL troops back home, and cut the Military to reflect the new changes.

    • edintexas

      Cutting the military, that is. The Democrats, once again, want to cut the military to the greatest degree possible (short of disbanding) to fund even more spending to hook even more citizens on the public teat.

      The 800 pound gorilla in the military planning shop is China. Though this Administration refuses to acknowledge it, our primary threat (not just on the far horizon either) is China. Chinese political and military figures have already given notice that they will take us on militarily (e.g. remember the comment about the US not wanting to lose LA [or was it San Francisco?] by a Chinese General?) and otherwise. They intend to force the US out of any influence in Asia, and then elsewhere in the world.

      The question for us is whether we will reduce military manning and spending to the point where we are unable to meet our treaty commitments in Asia? Will we simply abdicate our responsibilities and allow China to use military power to force support from countries in the region? Isolation didn’t work in 1941, when intercontinental warfare was dependent on large naval forces. It would be even less effective today.

  • paco12348

    It’s past time to leave. I wonder about the intelligence of our Pentagon leaders wanting to remain in Afgan. I wonder about them thinking they could train an ENTIRE army of Afgans. I wonder about the Nation building.
    It’s past time to bring our Hero’s home. They are worn out fighting for an America that is slowly going down the drain, fighting for a President with no cojones of his own. Obama supports Occupiers, not the Troops. Obama supports the UN, not America. Obama supports illegals, not legals and not Red States. Obama is an Occupier.
    Our troops have done an outstanding job for ungrateful, lazy Occupiers and a traitorous Administration. Bring them home. We need their fighting skills to protect the Homeland when Obama loses the election.

  • Juggernaut

    because they could not fire when civilians were close which resulted in soldiers drawing fire with no solution. More died on Obama’s watch than from 2003 to 2008. Obama destabilized the country escalating the fight while giving them power strengthen resistance.

    Best we can do is increase their troop participation and plan on a 2014 exit. If we leave too quick we end up seeing a faster total collapse. There will be payback either way but I feel a smooth transition will yield better results than a Vietnam style exit plus we look weak to the world and we’ve already seen other countries laugh at us enough.

  • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

    Go back to destroying the Taliban, even if it means pissing off Pakistan and a whole bunch of other people.

  • fishgod3

    The US Army trained me to be a fully functioning soldier in 6weeks in 1952 . They can`t train an army in 10yrs?Train one he trains another they both train two more who train 8 more etc,ad infiniatum.The time to leave is when you`ve done all you can,I think we`ve reached that point.

  • http://www.political-woman.com politicalwoman

    Jeff, an excellent article, and well-thought out and articulate. It caught my attention because it’s coming on the heels of a post of that I wrote yesterday on my website, Afghanistan – The Folly and The Fate. http://political-woman.com/WordPress/2012/03/15/afghanistan-the-folly-and-the-fate/

    Initially, I believe our mission in Afghanistan was to get bin Laden and al-Qaeda along with the Taliban members who were aiding and abetting. And what was once a fast-moving ground game, got bogged down into a counter-insurgency guerilla war, especially after the missing bin Laden at Tora Bora. That’s when the undefined mission-creep began.

    Some people will argue this isn’t like Vietnam, but I’m not so sure. Over 1800 of our service men and women have given their lives in Afghanistan, and the moment we leave, it will descend back into tribal chaos with the Taliban or worse in control in Kabul. And Karzai will be Switzerland or London, while here in the US, families and loved ones decorate the graves on Memorial Day.

  • johnt

    As long as everyone knows that the scenes change, that’s all.

  • ascrowe

    from Afghanistan two weeks ago (March 1) I hope I can add something of value to this discussion.

    Jeff wrote:
    1. What is the desired end state in Afghanistan? Certainly (hopefully) it isn?t a unified country that operates as a western-style (and pro-western) democracy, because that dish simply isn?t on the menu at the Reality Diner.

    This question could have easily read what ?was? the desired end state in Afghanistan, and have the same retort. However, most thought that it was on the menu yet we scrubbed the ?western-style? choice off the menu when we allowed a government based on a religion, rather than protecting liberty of all individuals.

    We became enablers, as long as the Afghan didn?t violate our, or the rights of our partners, we turned a blind eye to one Afghan violating the rights of another, which was mostly done under the guise of their religious law. Now after 10 years, we and our values have become more isolated within the county, the Afghan can see his identity as being closer to the Taliban than that of American.

    At this point you have to ask if ?our? desired end state is on the menu, it is a pick of the best of the bad, but no one “desires” bad.

    Before I write anymore I need to say I worked with Afghans, I liked and trusted most. I have to wonder if they trusted me, when the hardest question to try to answer was; ?Why is America negotiating with the Taliban?? It makes me sick to think about the future for those whose life became worthless since we bought it with material goods and not with the principles worth fighting for.

    But the bottom line is that freedom isn?t imposed on people and no matter how liberal their form of Muslim is, a government of it imposes its values on its people and those values can vary by the definitions, and who in government makes the definition. The difference between the American and the Afghan is in principles, which is a gulf that can?t be easily be filled, where the difference between the Afghan and the Taliban is in the grey area of definition.

    Jeff wrote:

    6. What are the Afghan National Security Forces capable of?

    You don?t have to read much between the lines above for my comments on this.

    But I?ll add this; they are capable, but do they have the heart? How does the Afghan citizen answer ?give me liberty or give me death?? ?when liberty isn?t really one of the options? ? we failed to pass on that understanding.

    The Afghan?s say the Taliban is cruel and the government in Kabul is corrupt, they are correct on both. It is between cruel or corrupt, or death. In the end between the first two, or death, they?ll try to pick the winning side of the first two. So who has the heart to win? The one with the conviction of their principles (no matter how misguided), or one with the money to exit the fight?

    Jeff wrote:

    At the bottom line, we have this fact: the Afghan people largely have better lives and more rights than they did under Taliban control in 2001 and before.

    True, but?

    It is relative, and we value it on our scale, which isn?t theirs, and most don?t see they won?t have both, a medieval mindset with modern technology.

    And in order to maintain those better lives we have become enablers (ignoring the mindset), and they have become dependents (not developing their own resources, minds and technology). Things are going to change.

    Samuel

  • Bill

    It has never been the Afgan people, it has always been the totally and completely corrupt “leadership” there. Karzi needs to take his drug Billions and get out, along with his entire family and crew of henchmen. Then, perhaps, the Afgan people can have a Nation. Personally, I don’t think they are capable of forming a “Nation” as recognized in civilized society.

    The only product they have ever been able of producing and exporting in the past is opium, and now the Red Chinese will soon be the big winners from the discovery of minerals of some value.

    My advice is: Leave; Nuke; and never look back!

  • CarolT

    Bush should have nuked it to the ground on September 12, 2001. We’ve lost too many lives there and they are not going to change their ways. I have a friend whose son just got back from there. I don’t think I can be specific, but he said it’s gotten worse each time he’s gone back. The Taliban is taking the kids from school and training them, meanwhile we are training the same kids.

    We do not have a CIC that wants to win it. If we cannot declare victory and stop them from shooting our soldiers in the back of the head, that happened 2/1/2012, that news came out today, then we can’t trust them. If we can’t trust them, we have to leave.

    The son said that that entire part of the world should be fenced off and let them kill each other because that’s what they’ve been doing for centuries.

    GWB tried but it’s not going to work with Obama in charge. I’m sorry if I offended anyone but it has been 10 1/2 years. We have to keep the US safe first. If anyone attacks us, bomb the country to the dark ages, they are living in a different century than most of the world.

    • acat

      being made around a little thing called “Operation Linebacker”…. by LBJ.

      Look, “bombing them back to the stone age” .. isn’t that far a throw. The only way to solve this is to change the culture .. and the only way to do that is to be engaged, with the *intent* of changing the culture.

      It may interest you to note, by the way, that the Afghan people weren’t always muslims … their culture was changed once, we can do it again.

      I’m not arguing against using bombs, I’m arguing that they won’t achieve the goal you want in this case. Changing the POTUS and the policy will… so can we try that instead?

      Mew

  • snowshooze

    And some think that Viet-Nam wasn’t about French Rubber Plantations. Some even suggest that Afghanistan is about Democracy rather than minerals.
    BS.

    • aesthete

      until 8 years after we invaded. Were our foreign policy and politicians so dominated by oil, one would think that our domestic policy would reflect this (it does not). Vietnam was about the French f*cking up, which is only tangentially related to their rubber plantations. We (the US) pressured France, the UK, Belgium, and the Netherlands to abandon much more lucrative colonies in Africa and the Far East as a matter of course during the 50s and the 60s; it beggars belief to think that Vietnam’s rubber plantations were somehow more valuable than Indonesia, or the many mineral riches throughout southern Africa and the Congo.

      • snowshooze

        And we invaded out of pure altruism.
        Sure.

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