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Penn State has torn down JoePa’s statue. Now the NCAA should tear down Penn State’s football program.

Joe Paterno's statue is removed from Beaver Stadium at Penn State University

At 7am Sunday morning, Pennsylvania State University president Rodney Erickson released a statement announcing that the statue of Joe Paterno that has stood outside Beaver Stadium since 2001 would be removed. By half-past eight, the job was finished, and a football legend cast in bronze no longer adorned the stadium grounds.

Removing the statue was the correct move, and one that had to be made — but it wasn’t enough. ESPN.com’s Adam Rittenberg writes that “keeping the Paterno statue would only reinforce the perception that the school can’t acknowledge the gravity of the scandal.” The flip side to this coin is obvious, though. Aside from commissioning the Freeh report (and relieving Joe Paterno of his coaching duties last fall), Penn State’s leaders have taken no overt action to impose or acknowledge the deep consequences that must follow the unimaginable acts that took place within the football program on Paterno’s watch. If they think merely cosmetic actions like taking down a statue (or renovating the showers where some of Sandusky’s child rapes took place) will make this issue go away any faster or with any less depth of consequence, then there has been no change whatsoever in the inability of Penn State’s leaders to “acknowledge the gravity of the scandal.”

On Monday, we will find out the NCAA’s opinion of that gravity. CBS News has reported that president Mark Emmert will announce an “unprecedented” level of  ”corrective and punitive” penalties against the school. As ESPN college football reporter Joe Schad notes, “these sanctions were not self-imposed or negotiated. This is Emmert taking a stand he felt he had to due to horrors in Freeh Report.”

The “horrors” contained in that report should lead to only one outcome: the doors should be closed and windows boarded up on the Penn State football program, for years if not forever.

The “death penalty” hasn’t been seen in college football since the late 1980s, when the NCAA canceled Southern Methodist University’s 1987 season and prohibited home games from being played in 1988, while slashing scholarships and prohibiting recruiting until fall of the latter year. SMU’s crimes included recruiting violations, paying players from a booster-fed slush fund, and lying to NCAA officials. The penalty, the harshest ever meted out by the NCAA, was imposed for the purpose of “eliminat[ing] a program that was built on a legacy of wrongdoing, deceit and rule violations.”

While they remain the worst of their kind to have been exposed and dealt with by the NCAA to date, SMU’s crimes pale in comparison to the horror show that went on behind the curtain of the Penn State football program during Jerry Sandusky’s molestation spree. As Josh Trevino has noted, handing down the death penalty to Penn State’s football program would be a similar example of “an institutional consequence for institutional corruption.”

Entirely A Football Scandal

The argument that this scandal does not qualify for the NCAA’s “lack of institutional control” tag (on the grounds that it isn’t a football scandal and didn’t provide a “competitive advantage” to Penn State’s program) simply doesn’t hold water. The horrors that took place at State College are entirely a football scandal.

This is entirely a football scandal because, for 61 years, Joe Paterno wasn’t just the head coach of the Penn State football team; he was Nittany Lion football. The culture he created, within which “the football program was…’an island,’ where staff members lived by their own rules,” not only allowed a child rapist to thrive over a period of decades, but became so valuable to Paterno, and so identified with him personally, that he was willing to sweep unspeakably vile actions within his own program under the rug not only after they happened, but as they were ongoing, and with no sign whatsoever that they would do anything but continue in the future. As the Freeh report noted, even the janitors working in the football complex knew of Sandusky’s rampant child rape, and even they were afraid to speak up about it, because they knew full well that their jobs would be quickly and quietly sacrificed at the altar of Paterno’s legacy and program.

As Rick Reilly wrote a week ago:

Here’s his true legacy: Paterno let a child molester go when he could’ve stopped him. He let him go and then lied to cover his sinister tracks. He let a rapist go to save his own recruiting successes and fundraising pitches and big-fish-small-pond hide.

Here’s a legacy for you. Paterno’s cowardice and ego and fears allowed Sandusky to molest at least eight more boys in the years after that 1998 incident — Victims 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9 and 10. Just to recap: By not acting, a grown man failed to protect eight boys from years of molestation, abuse and self-loathing, all to save his program the embarrassment. The mother of Victim 1 is “filled with hatred toward Joe Paterno,” the victim’s lawyer says. “She just hates him, and reviles him.” Can you blame her?

This is entirely a football scandal because, according to Freeh, it was Sandusky’s continued “affiliation with the university’s prominent football program” (even after his retirement) that “empowered” him “to attract potential victims to the campus and football events.” The Second Mile organization, Sandusky’s stalking ground for child rape victims disguised as a charity, enjoyed close ties to the Penn State football program (including marketing and co-branding opportunities). Further, when university administrators finally decided — in February 2001 — to take the issue of Sandusky’s child rape to the Department of Public Welfare, Paterno interceded on the rapist’s behalf, convincing Penn State leaders not to take the issue to the authorities.

This is entirely a football scandal because of the reasoning behind the cover-up, and the complete lack of regard for the victims by the man who was synonymous with Penn State’s program.  The Freeh committee’s “most saddening and sobering finding” was the ”total disregard for the safety and welfare of Sandusky’s child victims by the most senior leaders at Penn State. The most powerful men at Penn State failed to take any steps for 14 years to protect the children who Sandusky victimized. [Paterno et al.] never demonstrated, through actions or words, any concern for the safety and well-being of Sandusky’s victims.” Freeh also noted that, ”although concern to treat the child abuser humanely was expressly stated [by Paterno and other officials], no such sentiments were ever expressed by them for Sandusky’s victims.”

Read that paragraph again: Paterno’s number one concern in all this, aside from protecting his beloved program, was that Sandusky be treated “humanely.” The iconic coach didn’t just neglect to use such verbiage in regard to those victimized by his program; he neglected to show any concern for them whatsoever, to the point that he personally and intentionally thwarted administrators’ plans to go to child welfare over Sandusky’s molestation. Penn State’s football program, synonymous with Paterno’s own reputation and legacy, had to come first, and if protecting that required the sacrifice of a growing number of child rape victims, so be it.

Actions Have Consequences

Even as a rabid college football fan, I could not agree more with Dan Gainor’s declaration that “Penn State covered up child rape to protect its stupid football program. Kids matter. Football does not,” save for one small detail: football matters immensely to Penn State’s bank account.  In the 2009-10 school year, the Nittany Lions football program brought in $50 million in revenue (good for third-most in the nation), an amount that made up almost half of the university’s entire athletic revenue for the year.

Shutting down Penn State’s program would hurt the university financially, including student-athletes in other sports whose operating budgets are supplemented by football revenue. While this is unfortunate, it is an unfortunate fact of life that consequences are often felt by those who did not commit an offense. The athletes currently preparing for Penn State’s 2012 football season are no more responsible for Sandusky’s rapes or Paterno’s coverup than the athletes at the University of Southern California are responsible for the payments made to Reggie Bush and his family that resulted in the two-year bowl ban they are currently experiencing. Further, it is critical that we acknowledge that dealing with the decades of child rape that took place within the football program is more important than whether sports like men’s track and field or women’s swimming continue to receive funds provided by football revenue.

Aside from vacating wins ex post facto (a largely meaningless gesture), this is the way NCAA penalties work. They come down on athletes competing long after the fact, precisely because they are intended to punish a program for its transgressions rather than individual or collective athletes.  This is why athletes are allowed to transfer when their program is hit with debilitating sanctions: because, while those consequences do affect players, they are aimed at institutions and programs.

In a business that sees close to 100% turnover every four to five years, this is the best way the NCAA has come up with to deal with transgressions that have almost always happened at an earlier time. It’s correct that innocent athletes should not be prevented from competing outright because of this scandal; however, it’s also true that there is no God-given right to do so in a Penn State uniform.  The school’s football players should be granted their immediate release and allowed to transfer to any college that will take them, as should competitors in any other athletics at the university that will be crippled by the loss of Nittany Lion football revenue.  It may cause a mass exodus of student-athletes from Happy Valley, but years of systemic child rape enabled and protected by the football program demand the harshest possible penalty.

The Worst Scandal in NCAA History

Southern Methodist University’s football program was effectively killed for widespread violations of the NCAA’s rules regarding players’ amateur status, cash incentives and benefits, and a lack of cooperation with investigators.

At Penn State, the football program provided both opportunity and cover for decades of systemic and repeated child rape. It afforded a rapist the prestigious association he needed to attract victims and the setting within which to repeatedly rape them. Its master, Joe Paterno, did everything from turning a blind eye to intentionally obstructing efforts to deal with Sandusky’s repeated sexual abuse in an effort to maintain his beloved program’s power, prestige, and reputation. That power, prestige, and reputation, in turn, continued to feed the vicious cycle of further enabling Sandysky to rape children, while allowing Paterno the influence necessary to cover for him.

Here’s Howard Bryant:

There are times when the entire monument must be razed in order to be rebuilt if it is to have any moral value. This is one of those times. To allow Penn State to continue playing football when Southern Methodist University lost its program for something as common as a recruiting scandal is to condone the past and enable the future. It is to suggest that all the next university in trouble need do is to make the right public relations moves.

For Penn State to open the season Sept. 1 versus Ohio when the University of Southwest Louisiana lost its basketball program for two years over academic fraud and recruiting violations after Spanier, Schultz, Curley and Paterno responded to repeated child rape by negotiating not only an honorable discharge for Sandusky, leaving him financially intact, respected and elevated, but also for ways for Sandusky to continue to have contact with young children would show an equally striking lack of regard for the victims.

[...]

Perhaps there was nothing anyone could do to keep Sandusky from striking once, but Spanier, Schultz, Curley and, yes, Paterno had the power to prevent it from happening again. They demonstrated instead that the carrot was more important. They allowed the bait to work.

ESPN’s Joe Schad has reported that the NCAA does not plan to hit Penn State with the death penalty, but that the penalties the association does plan to announce “are considered to be so harsh that the death penalty may have been preferable.”  It’s difficult to imagine a worse penalty, or a more appropriate one, than shuttering the Nittany Lions’ football program.

This is without doubt the worst scandal in NCAA history, and the bottom line is simple: the collegiate athletic association must demonstrate that it too understands that child rape is a worse offense than recruiting violations and payments to athletes.  It is entirely a football scandal, and justice demands that, as a result, football at Penn State be shut down. The question shouldn’t be “whether,” but “for how long.”

COMMENTS

  • http://punditpawn.wordpress.com punditpawn

    Seriously? Shut it down? Now there’s an over-reaction and ill-thought out solution.

    No, you investigate the hell out of those that need to be investigated and follow the crimes by those that did them.

    • APA Guy

      This was a cover-up of the sexual abuse of minors on the part of the football program and university officials.

      Now, please tell me why Penn State deserves to skirt the consequences of its actions…or why lowering the boom on them is an “overreaction”…

      • robbysh

        SMU was a medium size fish; Penn State is one of the biggest. My guess is that even as we speak, some of the most powerful people in the country are trying to avoid the death penalty for this program. Already in he 1960s, my alma mater, UT-Austin was a school built around a football program. Now shutting it down would make Texas secede from the Union.

        • checkmate2012

          there is no way UT would escape SMU sanctions, let alone commit them. SMU is peanuts compared to Penn State and they deserve the death penalty for far worse than SMU.

          We would never secede over football and hope you were joking since we have way more real reasons than football.

      • defysocialism

        and how many 17 year-old girls have been plied with drugs and alcohol and raped by the athletes at every other major program? How many of those coaches, administrators, and boosters abetted or condoned the behavior? We can start with the University of Miami and follow the truth to almost every college in the country.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      rather than just the headline, and then argue my points. Calling it “ill-thought out” (sic) when you clearly haven’t read it, though, makes a mockery of yourself and your own comment.

      • synergist777

        1) Which guilty people would be punished by closing down the football program?

        2) How would closing down the football program solve any current problems?

        A probation would make much more sense: Show that the conditions that led to the coverup have been removed and everybody involved has been fired and reported to the police, and if that is not achieved, THEN suffer shutdown of the football program. At least that would serve a positive purpose.

        • RichmondG30

          “How would closing down the football program solve any current problems?” Really??!?

          Let me ask you: How will putting James Homes in jail for killing and wounding all those people solve the problem of so many dead and wounded? It’s not like jailing him will bring them back to life, right?

          It’s called PUNISHMENT. The idea is that a severe punishment will act as a DETERRENT. When a similar situation happens at PSU or some other university in the future, the lesson of PSU will help guide the decision-making process of other administrators. They might think twice before looking the other way when children are being RAPED.

          • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

            nt

          • synergist777

            at least one person who is actually guilty. I am not sure I see that sending the message, ‘If you commit a crime, we will punish someone else!” is an effective deterrent.

          • JSobieski

            Call me old fashioned, but collective guilt by association is not my thing

          • robbysh

            Germany is still suffering for Hitler?s genocide. But they elected the man and followed him, because they hoped to share in the spoils. The same applies to those at Penn State. Fact: Joe Paterno was a bad man and he allowed a monster free rein to do something that one of the few things that still shock the public conscience. Actions have consequences. Penn State allowed those boys to be raped: Penn State deserves to be raped .

          • nateborn

            you support Affirmative Action as well?

          • JSobieski

            Are you morally culpable for things you have no way of knowing.

            Ever vote for a politician who was dirty? I pronounce you GUILTY whether you knew it or not…GUILTY

          • APA Guy

            …I would have been first in a long line of many demanding to shut it down…and IU basketball is right up there with Penn State football with regards to importance to the sport and the state (let alone the university).

            Basketball is important here, but nowhere near as important as doing the right thing.

          • JSobieski

            I support punishing those who had knowledge of what was going on but why are you so determined those individuals who had no knowledge of anything?

            I am not sure what bothers me more….conservatives supporting collective guilt or presuming collective knowledge which is contrary to the presumption of innocense.

            Do the principles of INDIVIDUAL rights and responsibility disappear because the conduct was so horrible? Maybe the Colorado shooting means the 2nd amendment no longer matters either

          • Tbone

            Ya might have more success>. :-)

            http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=lynch+mob&view=detail&id=5A1ACC0B8F882933A290151FF3D8B3B3A0AEF551&first=1

          • PowerToThePeople

            they are all guilty. Penn State is an entity governed as a whole by the NCAA. This is not criminal prosecution, this is a governing body doling out punishment to an entity. It is not different than company a skirting tax rules, 10 years down the road getting caught, the IRS levying 100 million fine on the entity known as company a, and as a result many in the company lose their jobs even though they had no control over the paying of taxes.

            Where you would have a valid point is if the criminal authorities arrived on Campus and arrested every person associated with the football program and prosecuted them all. Then you have some serious what the hell issues. But as to the entity known as Penn State sports program, they know that when a violation occurs, the entire program will be punished, not just the offender or offenders.

          • JSobieski

            My apologizes for the earlier paraphrasing.

            What if your entire neighborhood was punished because of the actions of some of your neighbors?

            What if you were punished for the actions of your brother or sister?

            There is a difference between a certain amount of incidental collateral damage and the purposeful intention of hurting people who had nothing to do with it.

          • littlehouse18

            for what happened on their campus? There was some knowledge about Cho.

            I’m with JSob on this. And they are also punishing the taxpayers, confiscating their money and sending it effectively to other states.

          • APA Guy

            There HAVE to be severe consequences for the institution and its football program. They share a large measure of blame for what persisted for many years there.

            That isn’t “collective guilt”…it’s justice.

          • JSobieski

            Will punishing people who did nothing wrong set an example?

            Will punishing people who did nothing wrong make the victims feel better?

            Will punishing people who did nothing wrong make you feel better?

            Punish the GUILTY.

            A football program is not a legal entity—it is a bunch of people.

            Focus on the people, not the uniforms/trademarks/buildings.

          • Jack_Savage

            The individuals involved were given legitimacy by an institution and a program. Were it not for Sandusky’s association with Penn State, and their continued cover-up of his sexual orientation, at least eight young men would not have been raped. That’s the issue. If he had done this off campus, or on vacation, or in his home without any knowledge by anyone else associated with the institution your point would be valid.

            In this case, individuals and institutions cannot be separated.

          • JSobieski

            Navy personnel given legitimacy by an institution and program.

            Solution options:
            Ban Navy

            End Navy and then rename new entity something like “Navy 2.0

            OR

            Punish the individuals involved EVEN THOUGH the institution had a lot to do with the individual conduct.

            Why doesn’t option 3 work here? Why are people so eager to punish fans, current players, and alumbs—-hundreds of thousands of people who had NOTHING to do with the problem

          • littlehouse18

            PSU could use the $60M on training and implementing protective procedures.

          • JSobieski

            Any other standard for “responsibility” is misguided.

            If a bunch of people in your neighborhood commit crimes, should we hold you guilty as well?

            The answer to that question doesn’t change if the crime is rape, murder, or jaywalking.

            If I ask the question IN ALL CAPS—it still doesn’t change the question.

      • http://www.nathanjmartin.com Nathan Martin

        Respectfully, it is emotional…nothing more. To say that Penn State Football was a “culture that allowed a child rapist to thrive” would be like saying we should shut down every cathedral because the Catholic church had a child abuse problem as well. I would argue the church’s abuse problem was more systemic. I don’t like Penn State. I feel their fans are largely classless, uneducated rednecks. However, your points are based in emotion, no sort of logic. And citing ESPN as your source of moral high ground is laughable. The Penn State football players were NOT involved in the abuse. The COACHING staff was NOT involved in the abuse. (Sandusky was a former coach) AND…last time I checked EVERY person involved in the scandal is gone from Penn State. Jerry Sandusky received justice in the courtroom. This piece is nothing more than joining the lynch mob pile on so typical of the elite media. I am rather disappointed. As to the victims…what if the victims really love attending Penn State Football games? You want to deepen their pain by ensuring that their love is taken away in their honor? Don’t pretend to speak for the victims, especially when I have seen no one ask their opinion on this matter.

        • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

          Amazing.

          • rbdwiggins

            Parents’ basement, college dormitory or hastily constructed tent city.

            But, cave works too…

        • civil truth
        • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

          Every quote or citation, unless specifically otherwise, comes from the Freeh report or Judge Freeh’s press conference. Which you’d know if you’d actually read the post.

        • robbysh

          SMU was given the death penalty for mere venality. Here the article proposes the exact same punishment for a crime that cries to heaven for much worse. Joe Paterno showed, in the end, that he had the morals of a godfather. Read the report.

    • Bill S

      Totally.

      The logic here is impeccable. And spot on.

      Kill it. Now.

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      And if I was a moderator you’d be clicking the contact link.

    • hoootie

      Punditpawn…I think it fitting, since you wish to sweep this under the carpet, that you need to ask yourself….what if it was one of my kids that the monster Sandusky raped ? Would you sacrifice your kids well being for a stupid football program. These potential players have an option to play for other schools. What options do these kids have ? You need to come down off your football high and get a dose of reality. It was and is a crime and was knowingly covered up. Whatever penalty is levied isn’t enough to reclaim these kids of the innocence of childhood. That is forever gone !

    • Finrod

      Shutting down a college football program punishes the university, sure, but it also punishes every school that has that university scheduled. It especially screws up the conference; there is a reason that conferences have an even number of schools usually; having an odd number means one school every week isn’t playing in conference. Look at how the NFL had to deal with having 31 teams; it caused a scheduling mess and they saw to it that they created a 32nd team as soon as possible.

      No, a better way to punish the school without punishing the teams that play them is this: ban the school from home football games for some number of seasons.

      College football lives and dies by home attendance; smaller schools with no chance of winning will play road games at big schools just to get a percentage of the gate. Forcing a school to play every single game on the road will punish a school just as much as the ‘death penalty’ (maybe even more, because they have all the costs without the revenue) without penalizing the schools that already had them scheduled.

    • inletghost

      I read quite a bit of the Freeh Report and he points out that the overarching goal of the school administration (and I include Paterno in that group) was to preserve the football program. EVERYTHING else was secondary.

      If that meant the serial pedophile-child rapist who was the most most senior assistant to Joe Paterno (a description that no thinking person could deny) had to be financially rewarded to leave the staff so be it. If it meant he had to be given a special status no former coach had ever been given before (an “emeritus” designation) then so be it. If he was allowed to use his ties to PSU to facilitate his charity (from where his victims were selected) then so be it.

      And for those reasons the NCAA ought to tell Penn State they no longer may have such a program. Ever.

      The NCAA often uses the term “lack of institutional control” to justify their sanctions. In this case we see the exact opposite-their was total “institutional control” at PSU. The irony here is that the NCAA is doing what local law enforcement is not (at least to this point) doing and that is punishing the enablers and cover up personnel at PSU.

      Is it a bad break and rotten luck that the current athletes at Penn St are going to have to pay the price for things they had nothing to do with? Sure it is. But no more than those athletes at USC, Indiana, Missouri, SMU or many many others over the years.

  • djt0711

    -is to destroy justice. Those that were involved should be criminally investigated, charged and punished.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      Where’s the God-given right to play sports specifically at Penn State? I’m good with every eligible athlete transferring elsewhere. If they’re good enough to play at PSU, they’re probably good enough to catch on somewhere else.

      • 6eorge Jetson

        JoePa (the defacto athletic department head if not the university head), and the nomimal athletic director.

        When the improprietaries in a program are at that level, they are endemic. The program deserves harsh consequences. It is impossible to avoid all collateral damage.

        There are 119 other BCS-level football programs. The NCAA can waive any transfer restrictions.

        Recall that SMU received the death penalty for cheating at amatuer football.

    • rbdwiggins

      within Penn State’s football program.

      According to the Freeh Report, there were accomplices, facilitators and enablers.

      Even the janitors assumed the role of enabler when they chose self-interest over justice.

      • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

        It’s the program. as a whole. That’s why the program has to go.

        • JSobieski

          Collective guilt is a dangerous thing.

          There is no right to play football at the college level or at any particular college. However a current player is innocent of this filth and such players are harmed by the death of the program.

          I am not necessarily opposing the death penalty here, but to say that there are no innocents makes me think of a certain Marxist named Che who thought that anyone who benefited from capitalism was by definition not an innocent

          • APA Guy

            Penn State isn’t Harvard…and there are some damn fine Big 10 schools (like Northwestern) and others in the Atlantic area (Rutgers, for instance) for students to transfer to and play ball at.

            This is about sending a clear message to a program that failed young children…a message that is only made loud and clear by shutting it down.

          • littlehouse18

            Would there be any slots open to these guys now? And will PSU transfer the scholarship money along with them?

            I also am not comfortable with collective guilt/punishment for these guys.

            Penn State may not be Harvard, but Paterno was known for always making sure that his players kept up with their academics. I’m not disputing the report, but it is just so hard to believe that a man who was beloved by his players, like a father to them, indeed beloved by the whole state for his character, could have been as uncaring as this report says – it just doesn’t fit.

            I’ll have to read the report, if I can stomach it. My first reaction was that the Paterno we thought we knew didn’t believe the allegations, especially given the era he was from. He was also a staunch Republican and I’m just a tiny bit uneasy that the liberal university faculty etc. might have had it in for him and didn’t want to waste a crisis. He’s not around to defend himself. Obviously he deserves some blame, and if this is all true, as is likely, then I’ll agree with the author.

          • APA Guy

            If not, well, that player was pretty much useless to begin with. If so, talent ALWAYS finds a home in big-time collegiate athletics.

          • littlehouse18

            I’ve got a few problems with it, especially since the principal people involved were not interviewed for it (their own choice, it seems, due to pending court cases). So it is incomplete and hasty.

            It’s a little hard to figure it all out, but it seems the first incident went to police first, and then the athletic dept found out. The problem is, the DA decided not to press charges, and the incompetent government counselor determined that JS did not fit the profile of a pedophile and basically said this was no big deal. So lets spread the blame around some here to the government as well.

            I believe the other staff (JP et al) took this as proving that their friend was ok (it helped them believe what they wanted to believe). Remember, they had known him for almost 40 years. And I’m willing to bet that people like Sandusky are really good pathological liars – after all, he got the trust of the kids and their parents. I think they just saw him as a funny, good-natured goofball, and in an age where any male in an educational institution is in danger of some sort of sexual abuse charge, they were disposed to believe him.

            In the second case, I think they wanted to talk to him first, to get him to ‘admit to a problem’ so they could be sure before they got him in trouble with law enforcement. He lied again and I think at least Paterno may have believed him. Here especially is where they all were very foolish and negligent.

            As for the janitors’ not telling anyone, only the one old guy who saw something disgusting was afraid to speak up, and I think his fear could very well have simply been based on ignorance. I’ve heard reasoning like his before with no basis in fact. The other two were ready to back him if he reported it.

            This report skips from 2001 to 2010 and is very incomplete in my opinion. At this point, unless I learn more, I feel the level of calumny directed at Paterno, and the complete removal of his statue, is going too far. He gave his life and tons of charity to that school, and, while he bears some culpability, his memory should not be so utterly destroyed in this way.

          • conservative_dan

            Paterno is dead, the guilty have been removed and will be prosecuted, and Sandusky is incarcerated (though I would favor the death penalty for child abusing scum). Punishing the innocent to make a show of it is going too far. If we’re going to do that, why not shut down the entire state of Pennsylvania? There are people in power, like the Governor, formerly the Attorney General, and others who knew of the allegations against Sandusky and also did nothing to stop him even though they knew he still had access to Penn State facilities. And the press? Am I to believe they knew nothing about this? Even after the original accusations? And what about the police back in the 90′s. Should we start closing police precincts because they should have known what was going on?

            It sounds to me like there is a lot of uncertainty here and a lot of people who should be held responsible BEFORE the players or the fans.

          • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

            The NCAA can give the players waivers on the “year out” rule and if necessary can grant them an extra year of eligibility. The can either give their new schools an extra scholarship or force Penn State to honor their scholarship agreement at the new school.

            The coaches can find new jobs. Or not, I don’t give a tinkers dam about them, whether they were involved or not.

            And the fans????? Specifically, as far as the fans go, you should go read some Pervert State football forums. They’re no better than Paterno. They can go straight to hell.

            Sorry, Pedophile State needs to be made a glaring example. Let ‘em tear down the football stadium and build a park. They should never be allowed to field a football team again. Let them try to build an academic program and see if they can actually graduate students who can offer something to the world other than a couple of hours of escape on a Sunday.

            The administration currently in place, along with the players, students and fans, have done everything possible to cover this mess up, deny it, dismiss it and just generally refuse to deal with the enormity off the problem. Just like a dozen or so posters here. And, unfortunately, the NCAA.

            If there’s any justice here, the Cowardly Lions will get tossed out of the Big 10 and the schools they’re playing this year will cancel their games. But I’m afraid that much moral courage probably doesn’t exist in the world of college football.

          • conservative_dan

            Penn State should leave the Big 10. But it won’t happen because it would cost too many valuable bucks. So much for concern of the victims.

          • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

            about Penitentiary State and the NCAA.

          • philliesfan

            I am appalled by the ignorance and prejudice of the posters on RedState regarding this topic. I would expect this of Obama liberals (such as the profs who have wanted Republican JoePa gone for decades), but ready these bloodthirsty posts is a gut punch. I m ay never visit this blog again.

            The fact is that Louis Freeh, Clinton’s FBI director, was hired by the cowardly Board of Trustees to find a scapegoat–and he did, in the form of a dead man. As littlehouse 18 notes, Freeh did not interview any of the people involved and based his indictment of Paterno on three emails referencing him, emails sent by other people, and whose language is wide open to interpretation. I wonder how many of you would want to be judged by what others post about you? The fact is that Freeh’s “conclusions” could not stand up in court, yet they are being treated as the word of God.

            Sandusky would have been a pedophile if he worked on Wall Street or at Walmart. Penn State did not create his pedophilia. His victims at Penn State were not students there. And when Paterno learned of it, he reported it up to the chain–including the head of the university police. The failures of the investigation are not his fault. He said he wished he had done more. Well, Oskar Schindler said the same thing after the Holocaust. Good people always wish they had done more. Paterno’s character was demonstrated time after time over a career of 61 years. No, littlehouse18, the accusations leveled, and believed, about him do not fit. How can we set all that evidence aside and believe the worst of him based on Freeh’s say so? Moreover, one of the witnesses, the old janitor who said he was afraid to report what he says he saw, has dementia–which is why he was not presented at the Sandusky trial. His testimony was considered incompetent. I would be very wary of basing any finding of fact based on such witnesses.

            The NCAA’s erasure of all of Penn State’s wins from 1998 to 2011 reminds me of how members of Oceania’s Ministry of Truth erased people from history. By decree, the NCAA has nullified all of Penn State’s wins and deemed its team and individual accomplishments worthless. Not to mention demoting Paterno from his status as winningest coach in history–which was probably the motive behind this particular punishment.

            Sandusky was tried, convicted, and punished under the law. The officials indicted by the grand jury (NOT Paterno) are going to have their days in court. That is how our system is supposed to work. Freeh’s report is an exercise in CYA for the Trustees and nothing more than that. Yet it is treated as if it were a conviction of Paterno and Penn State football.

            There is indeed a perception that if a crime is heinous, the accused must be guilty. That was the view in Salem, Massachusetts in 1692. This dangerous fallacy is opposite to the system of justice put in place by the Founders. I expect to see this insanity in an “Occupy” mob, but among conservatives? The witch finder was hired to find a witch and–surprise, surprise–he did. Like the good and pious Rebecca Nurse, who was hanged for trafficking with the devil, Joe Paterno has been similarly convicted by a self-righteous mob claming to be acting on behalf of “the children.” This makes me sick.

          • westcoastpatriette

            The ones harmed were the rape victims. The consequences for the cover-up need to be heard and felt by everyone — for the sake of the victims.

          • JSobieski

            You aren’t harmed…just Inconvenienced?

            Forcing someone to move or change schools is a harm, particularly when the cause is punitive

          • APA Guy

            Big time players will ALWAYS find a home at big-time programs. Marginal players? Not so much.

            Either way, these mitigating circumstances aren’t enough to warrant what would amount to a slap on the wrist for a program that harbored and enabled a serial child rapist.

          • zachv

            Over 3,000 civil lawsuit resulting in multimillion dollar settlements against organizations that not only failed to report sex abuse allegations to civil authorities, but in some cases deliberately protected Priests by moving them to other locations.

            You’re coming down very hard upon Penn State, APA Guy. However compared to the actions of Pen State, the actions of some of the Catholic Church dioceses may be described as far more heinous than the atrocities committed by the Penn State’s program.

            Should those Catholic dioceses be shut down? Per your previous arguments, these organizations have certainly skirted the consequences.

          • APA Guy

            …and you never will.

            Drop the hammer on all who willfully allow the lives of children to be ruined…that is my singular thought on the matter.

          • JSobieski

            Most welfare programs begin with that justification.

            Collective guilt may be a valid theological construct, but it is contrary to conservatism in a legal sense.

          • zachv

            You would believe such a thing.

            I am posing the question is that how do you reconcile shutting down Penn State’s sports organization / program and its affiliates with what has happened in much GREATER extent in another organization here in America.

            Though, I will concede the comparison is rather faulty given that NCAA is not a government or government agency but an association dealing with one of its members.

          • APA Guy

            But take it as a whole, I would have punished the Catholic Church in similarly harsh fashion if I had the power to do so.

          • zachv

            Still, I don’t like this talk of automatic kill-the-program shutdown when we have many examples of organizations (*) enabling and protecting the same crime.

            * Being that any organization, streiff. Company, university, social club or what have you. I’m not picking on just one.

          • APA Guy

            The Death Penalty only stipulates a one-year minimum shutdown. SMU only got a one-year shutdown, though if memory serves, they weren’t allowed any home games in 1988.

            I think the NCAA will probably hand them 2-4 years for this, but eventually the program would have a chance to bring itself back. A clear message has to be sent to these big-time programs…and that message is, YOU are not more important than the dignity of human beings, their safety, or the well-being of children. Penn State thought nothing of the lives they allowed to be destroyed…they should be made to pay with their most prized asset (and the primary culprit for the cover-up): the football program.

          • Jack_Savage

            Yes or no?

          • streiff

            situations you need to consider not posting here in the future. Consider that a directive, not a suggestion.

          • Mike Ferguson

            To my knowledge the author has never defended the catholic church for any of their priests actions and to make such an accusation, which you most certainly did, is reprehensible.

            The author made no allusions to the church, nor his feelings about the issues the church has had in the past.

            Also do I believe that perhaps the penalties for the GOVERNMENT FUNDED INSTITUTION that covered up and continued to allow these heinous actions should be as severe as possible. Well then your Damn’d right I do. No only to punish them, but also to send the clear message that this will not be tolerated.

          • zachv

            … that I made, because I certainly didn’t make any.

          • Mike Ferguson

            Phrasing it as a question is just a semantic game. You were basically implying that he would have a different opinion when it came to the church cases. Play semantic’s with someone else, it won’t get you very far here.

          • zachv

            We had the conversation, a conclusion was made by both myself and APA Guy and then we moved on.

          • Jack_Savage

            Instead of “gay pedophiles” it’s “child rapists”, and instead of an “access of gays to children” issue, it’s the “Catholics who harbored” the gay pedophiles. Nice one.

            You were clearly asking Jeff what our reaction should be to the institution of the Catholic Church and the gay pedophile scandal in light of his opinion of Penn State. You got caught, dodged a bullet from streiff, and are now trying to backtrack. We’re not that stupid.

            Why don’t you work on dismantling NAMBLA, then report back, OK?

          • zachv

            I’m not going to take the bait.

          • Jack_Savage

            Good to know. And I thought we were talking about gay pedophiles, but make of it what you will. Or make of it what you want to.

          • zachv

            “As far as your [Jack's] question goes, it?s irrelevant to the specific topic at hand, and since I have have no hard data on the subject, I?ll refrain from speculating. Certainly bans on such have not stopped high-profile sexual abuse cases in organizations with such bans, such as clergy or leadership in various Buddhist and Christian organizations or others such as the BSA.”

            I suggest you revisit your discussion at the bottom of the page.

          • Jack_Savage

            Now THAT is an interesting take.

            But let’s drill down a little. Since gay activists have intimidated academics into silence, there is no research on the link between male homosexuality and pedophelia. Since there is no research, well, we sure wouldn’t want to speculate now would we? And since we wouldn’t want to speculate, gay pedophiles have unlimited access to their prey. Perfect. Congratulations.

            Aesthete gave four references to “high profile” sex abuse cases in the BSA. The citations were for cases in 1982, 1988, 1996 and 2009. Guess you didn’t read that far, huh? Anyway, his inability to cite further utterly proves the point that bans on gays in leadership go a long way to preventing male children from being raped.

          • streiff

            That is all Jack Savage and others have done. Deal with it. Don’t use a strawman to demean thousands of priests and millions of Catholics and then get all butthurt.

            Fine, you’re gay and you have deep seated issues with the Roman Catholic Church because of the whole Bible/God thing.

            I’ve called you on your equating Catholicism with homosexual pederasty before and I’ve pretty much had if with your one comment fits all repertoire and then slinking off to pretend none of it happened.

          • zachv

            “Don?t use a strawman to demean thousands of priests and millions of Catholics and then get all butthurt.”

            That was my point in the first place! We’re using (or advocating) a sex scandal abuse to drag down the entirety of Penn State’s athletics program. While it’s not in the “thousand” to “millions” range of persons affected, it’s the same principle.

            Do you not see the irony behind the position “You can’t drag down / demean all the Catholics” and the “Let’s drag down the entire Penn State athletics program, because none of them are innocent (at least according to a lot of today’s posters)?”

            My subtle point was that it would both UNFAIR to both those millions of Catholics and to the Penn State athletes for undertaking such punitive actions, which was apparently lost behind the “ZachV must hate Catholics!”

            Do you understand my point, streiff?

          • Jack_Savage

            Bill Clinton was involved in a “sex scandal”. Do not diminish the suffering of those young men at Penn State by calling this a “sex scandal”, and don’t try and call the systemic rape of young boys in the Catholic Church by gay pedophiles as “Catholics harboring child rapists”.

            The rapists may have had the title of “priest”, but they were no more Catholic than Osama Bin Laden.

          • streiff

            I understand your point quite well and I’ve understood it for some months now.

            I was going to fisk the juvenile analogy you use but as there isn’t an analogy there that doesn’t require drawing and quartering logic, I’ll pass.

            I’ll also pass along this bit of advice. The next time one of your comments can be interpreted as implying in any way anything about Catholicism by anyone commenting on RedState I will ban you.

          • zachv

            One group – doesn’t matter which – suffers in that the leaders of the program protected and covered up sexual abuse of children.

            Another group – again, doesn’t matter which – suffers in that the leaders of the program AGAIN protected and covered up the sexual abuse of children.

            We’re advocating that one group be shut down and have all of its members punished because “there is no innocents” but the other group (which could very well be the BSA – I’m a proud former member) be allowed to continue to exist and that even mentioning such transgressions towards members would be offensive. This being in the opposite spectrum, mind you, of that logical that ALL are guilty members that need to be be punished.

            Do you understand my point, streiff, that it makes no sense that one group whomever they may be — Corporation, youth group, social group — is punished more than another?

            That sort of conflicting position is a fairly unconservative ideology, as JSob was really hammering in his other posts. No?

          • streiff

            you don’t want to screw with me. Because I’d love to have a vague excuse to send you packing. So keep poking that stick if you want to prove a point.

          • civil truth

            The relationship between NCAA and PSU regarding the latter’s football program is that of those with supervisory responsibility (NCAA) enforcing discipline on those who are accountable (PSU) to follow the rules of the organization.

            Given the seriousness of the charges, dissolution of the program as presently constituted is an entirely appropriate response. While there is going to be some folks who get hurt in the process who don’t deserve it, most of the hurt can be mostly mitigated – but the hurt resulting from inaction is going to be far worse.

            The other organization you mentioned encountered a breakdown in its internal disciplinary process for a variety of reasons and these are being addressed by the leadership. Those who are “members” are free to individually choose to stay or leave, but there’s no external group around with the authority to punish the organization or disband them.

            Apples and oranges…

          • zachv

            “Though, I will concede the comparison is rather faulty given that NCAA is not a government or government agency but an association dealing with one of its members.”

            As I posted here a few hours ago.

            The analogy does not work too well given the differing environments of the two organizations.

          • PowerToThePeople

            “Do you understand my point, streiff, that it makes no sense that one group whomever they may be ? Corporation, youth group, social group ? is punished more than another?”

            First, life is not fair, people get punished differently all the time. Two people in one state who commit the very same offense who also have the same exact past can receive two very different punishments even when tried by the same prosecutor, overseen by the same judge, and represented by the same attorney. Just the way it works.

            But trying to equate the Catholic Church, its actions, and the punishment received to what will happen to Penn State is absurd.

            The Catholic Church is its own government, what punishment they dole out to the churches involved is their decision. It is the decision of the local authority as to what happens to the people involved in the abuse. People called for the church to be sanctioned, even to have the Church shut down, but it was an absurd call since the church is protected by the constitution and there is no way an American shutdown would be effective since they are in nearly every other country.

            Penn State’s sports program is governed by the NCAA. They agree to abide by the rules of the NCAA and live with any sanctions given. Teams lose a host of things for minor violations, more for major things such as pay to play, and Penn State will be blasted for this nonsense. It does not matter what sanctions occurred with the Catholic Church as they are not governed by the NCAA.

            Penn State will receive what the NCAA thinks is appropriate and it does not compare to the Catholic Church. This is an internal punishment, not one done by local authority. Same thing applied to the Catholic Church.

          • westcoastpatriette

            They still have choices — something the victims did not have.

          • JSobieski

            There is a difference between Penn State’s program withering away on its own and invocation of the death penalty.

            Nobody forces you to pay higher taxes when rates are raised, you can always chose to earn less.

            Nobody forces you to keep property that the EPA has regulated, you can always choose to sell it.

            I am not necessarily against the death penalty for Penn State, but I am surprised at the willingness of conservatives to so embrace collective guilt. . . without any hesitation.

          • APA Guy

            Seriously…if you’re looking for sympathy to keep a freakin FOOTBALL PROGRAM, you’re probably going to find few takers here or anywhere else…and this is coming from a former NCAA college football player.

            The Death Penalty has been handed down for lesser offenses than this. It would be appropriate, IMO, to drop the hammer here and allow any players to transfer without penalty or delay. Fall practices haven’t even begun yet (and won’t until August) and playbooks aren’t all that complicated to learn in a month’s time.

          • JSobieski

            Beyond that, what is the purpose?

            You want to punish the trademark?
            Maybe you want to punish the uniforms?

            Maybe we should ban BMW and Volkswagon for their activities in WWII?

            At some point the people you want to punish are gone.

            My point is that it would be better to make sure that the individuals are put to justice than to just kill the program and think we have done justice.

            This is the same kind of problem that eastern block countries faced when the wall fell.

            Do you want to punish everyone who benefited from the silence re: Penn State?

            Maybe suspend the broadcasting rights of ABC?

            Prohibit Big Ten teams from playing any sports for 2 years?

            The US had slavery once, so everything that happened since is tainted by rotten roots?

            The death penalty will actually give people a false sense of justice being done (with the worst actors essentially getting off scott free), while maximizing the collateral damage of current players, fans and alumns who had nothing to do with Sandusky or the cover up.

            Besides making us feel better, what does the death penalty accomplish? Bettter to ban the INDIVIDUALS involved from ever working in college sports than it is to ban a sport at a school (with accompanying logo and uniform colors).

            A program is a bunch of people who are will ultimately leave the program. 20 years from now there will be nobody affiliated with the program who has any culpability for this mess.

            Why not just change the 20 years to next Monday, and go from there?

            I have the same generl impulse for the other NCAA violations. Why not give the offending players and coaches the boot? Why the need to punish someone who had nothing to do with it?

            Collateral damage is ok when there is no reasonable alternative. We had to bomb German factories in WWII, and we did kill people who for all we know wanted to help us get rid of the Nazis.

            However, there is time to sort out the innocent from the guilty. Why not do that?

          • Jack_Savage

            These were individuals working under the protection of an institution. There really is no other choice but to punish the institution to the fullest extent possible.

            As far as the individuals go, there are around 115 Division I schools that would most likely be happy to find a place for them, with many more D II and DIII schools. And if they were headed to Penn State for the education, the death penalty has no effect on them.

          • JSobieski

            I recall Rush’s discussion regarding corporations as people.

            Corporations (and programs and universities) are people because they are comprised of people.

            I understand the need to set an example, but is overpunishment (the collateral punishment of people who had nothing to do with anything) the kind of example you want to set?

            Isn’t it better to focus on the people who actually did the bad things or looked the other way?

            In the fall of Nazi Germany, the USSR, etc. it was better to focus on getting all the individuals who did bad things rather than just blanket (i.e. diffuse) condemnation among the innocent as well as the guilty.

          • Jack_Savage

            Penn State is not being shut down. Faculty, students there for an education, food vendors, etc, etc, etc will not be affected.

            The part of the institution responsible for this tragedy is what we are talking about, and yes, it should be punished to the fullest extent possible.

          • JSobieski

            Before everyong gallops away on a high horse, wouldn’t it make sense to determine just how many people presently in the program have any culpability?

            Any present players? All present coaches or just some?

            If the % of people with real culpability is 10% would you still support the death penalty?

            I believe in individual rights and individual responsibility. Collective responsibility is just another way of saying nobody is responsible

          • aesthete

            I do not see the shuttering of Penn State football for an unspecified time as “punishment” (collective or otherwise), but as a way to allow the program to either re-emerge as a something without the institutional flaws of its predecessor, or to simply be forgotten if that is not possible. While we didn’t punish all who were soldiers in the CSA, Nazi Germany, Japan, etc., we did effectively rupture the institutional continuity between their previous governments and supervised them as they rebuilt their institutions — and certainly, such a course of action had an adverse effect on the rank and file and many of the civil bureaucrats in those regimes. Such rupturing was necessary to some extent, given our goals. Likewise, I think that a similar cleansing beyond removal of individuals at the top is necessary for Penn State as the malfeasance was so pervasive and institutionally encouraged.

          • JSobieski

            I think #1 is more important than #2

          • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

            The only way the Penn State football program should be allowed to continue is if they change their mascot from the Nitny Lions to the Penn State Pedophiles with a picture of Sandusky behind the kid in the shower.

          • acat

            Mew

          • aesthete

            and the one does not necessarily have to adversely impact the other.

          • JSobieski

            If people really want to help the families, having prosecutors comb through the lists of people who can be implicated so that they can be added as defendants is the way to go.

            I predict that it will not happen. The NCAA action is going to cause people to think of perpatrators as being punished—and part of the reason why PSU signed on to this stuff is to protect the people not prominently mentioned in the report.

            Nobody is going to have an incentive to go beyond the names in the report. Not the prosecutors and not the contingency fee attorneys for the victims.

            This is what the NCAA does best—punish someone and end the inquiry.

            The NCAA is one of the few private organizations that is worse than the government.

          • aesthete

            Thanks, JSob. Will continue to think the issue through…

          • APA Guy

            By definition, both should be punished accordingly.

          • avgjo

            takes away motivation in the future from anyone trying to cover horror like this up for the ‘sake of the team’. They should know that there will be no team to speak of if they cover such crimes up.

          • Tbone

            This time of year, schools do not have any scholarships available.

            Unless the school he transfers to is allowed an extra scholarship. Is that fair? I don’t think so.

            Further, he would be entering a new system where his productivity would be limited. As such, unless he was very gifted or a lower classman he would not warrant a scholarship.

          • APA Guy

            Again with the “fairness” argument relative to Penn State. “Fair” or not, the university and its football program will deserve its punishment…including shutting the program down…for what it has allowed to take place there.

          • Tbone

            There are practical reasons why a player can’t transfer successfully in August. Besides, it is obvious the NCAA is not going to shut down the program in any case.

          • Jack_Savage

            Should they bear any responsibility for choosing to attend Penn State, knowing for quite some time what had transpired?

          • Tbone

            Do you bear any responsibility for living in the US with a President who is totally disregarding the Constitution?

          • APA Guy

            I played NCAA college football…I am aware of the complexities and scheduling issues. I am telling you, it isn’t all that terrible to transfer in July.

            The offenses and defenses, while different schematically, aren’t all that complex at the college level…and the schools can ease the logistics of the travel itself (i.e. moving from State College to another school). In addition, most colleges and universities offer the same academic programs (with a few rare exceptions) with the same NCAA funding mechanisms for those who transfer.

            It really isn’t as terrible as you are making it…spoken from one who knows this first-hand.

          • PowerToThePeople

            if I am correct, that a transferring player is required to be out for one year. Means all players who move to other schools would not be able to play and as you stated, would be out of scholarships.

          • APA Guy

            …would likely make exceptions for those uninvolved with the transgressions.

          • acat

            as per agreement, even though there’s no football program anymore.

            Mew

          • APA Guy

            I suspect that is the reason it has taken them so long to hand down their punishment in this case.

          • acat

            “fantasy football, college edition”….

            Going through the Penn State roster of players, figuring out the trades, the secondary trades, etc. etc.

            Mew

          • Jack_Savage

            I have already seen a pro-Alabama T-shirt in SEC country that said “I’d rather take a shower at Penn State than support LSU”.

            Penn State will be severely wounded for many, many years to come. There is just no getting over this one short of a complete cleansing.

          • Jack_Savage

            .

          • Viet71

            NCAA is going to thread the needle.

            The public message will be, we’ve punished them.

            The reality will be, Penn State football will do quite well.

            It’s all about money. Period.

          • acat

            and if they screw up and the Dems in Congress decide “Somebody Should Do Something!” .. it will be worse.

            Fools.

            Mew

          • Tbone

            If you are playing at Penn State, you have pretty much spent the greatest part of your life preparing yourself to play at that level.

            At the level of Penn State, there are probably several professional aspirations who need to play this year.

            Shutting down the program this year would do far more harm than good and would include other schools and their suppliers.

            Many of these negative effects can’t can’t be reduced financial loss.

            I assume that the totality of the situation is why the NCAA is evidently not going to shut down the program.

          • acat

            I submit that it’s better to be a first-string player at a third-string college than a third-string player at a first-string college….

            .. and further, that if the Penn State players wanted to transfer, they could find spots.

            (especially if Penn State has to continue to pay out scholarship money for every kid in the program for, say, up to 6 years…)

            Mew

          • 6eorge Jetson

            that don’t count against their scholarship limits would spread the players out avoiding any problem with concentrated advantage transferring.

          • JSobieski

            Instead you are given an artificial choice between bad options dictated not by events but by the fiat of a third person

          • aesthete

            When it’s rotted from the inside, you need new timber. Yes, it is unfair to the athletes currently in the program, but IMO the institutional rot requires a strong response both to replace the dysfunctional institutions and to establish the seriousness of what transpired, as a deterrent to other programs looking to do something similar.

          • APA Guy

            And really, I am past tired of hearing what isn’t “fair” to people at and affiliated with Penn State. Fair is relative when you consider the evil done to so many, courtesy of that same university and its football program. If the punishment hands Penn State football its walking papers for ANY significant amount of time, I will have no problem with said punishment.

          • runner12

            As a Conservative, I am uncomfortable with embracing collective guilt in this situation. I feel that the death penalty for Penn State punishes those who had nothing to do with these crimes in a way I just do not feel is right.

            I know that good people will disagree with me on this one, and I can understand their point of view. I am certainly not going to defend Penn State or be angry if the NCAA decides to go this route. I just do not feel that it is the best route to take. I fully support removing the statue, other punishments by the NCAA, and criminal prosecution of those involved to the fullest extent of the law.

            I think it would be a good idea if one of the punishments was for Penn State to forfeit all football revenue for several years to a fund benefitting the victims.

          • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

            who is a child rapist, you should have to sell your land and move just to cover the fines and lawsuits. And, given that you knew what was going on, you should go to jail.

          • JSobieski

            and I had no knowledge of it–why should I be punished?

            In WWII, the Germans would simply kill people living in the village for reprisals.

          • Tbone

            should be shot. Say 100 of them. Then, we could all move on? If 100 is not enough, I’m good with a higher figure. I would seem it would need to be high enough to teach all the other schools a lesson.

          • APA Guy

            This university and its football program covered up child rape. If they were anywhere near as concerned for the well-being of children as you are for those affiliated with PSU, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I am growing tired of the arguments that seek to find “fairness” for those who, for reasons known only to them, remain affiliated with that university.

            They deserve what’s coming to them…which, according to ESPN.com, isn’t nearly enough:

            http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8188629/penn-state-nittany-lions-not-facing-death-penalty-monday-ncaa-source-says

          • Tbone

            whatever vengeance you feel is appropriate? You seem to have no problem being the judge. Get your axe.

          • APA Guy

            …and it isn’t “judging” when it comes to covering up child rape so a football program and university can remain clean as a whistle; it’s called being discerning versus an immoral rationalization casting those who weren’t victims as somehow being victimized.

          • JSobieski

            How many people at Penn State had actual knowledge of the cover up? Hoe many had a reason to know of the cover up?

            I am betting that the answer to the first question is less than 10 and the answer to the second is less than 20.

            Collective guilt and collective punishment for the sake of “the children” is not a recipe for conservative thought. . . or conservative anything.

          • 6eorge Jetson

            and the govt shouldn’t/won’t be forcing it to do anything.

          • zachv

            A death penalty is going to destroy many of the careers of Penn State’s athletes, including a lot of those outside of the football program (given the revenue sharing as pointed out by Jeff). I certainly hope these athletes will be able to recover should this be the imposed penalty.

            Additionally, this ‘collective guilt’ and ‘no innocents’ thing that is being pushed makes me edgy. I don’t see problems with – for example – the penalties imposed upon ACORN or the banks involved in the LIBOR scandal.

            But I do take issue with White guilt, Che’s (or radical Islam’s) labeling of capitalist American society or even the revenge sought upon the Germanic people post WWII. Granted these are extreme cases to make a comparison, but the in and of itself hyperbole, “There are no innocents!” reminds me much more of this latter category than the former.

          • renl57

            He’s saying that the *program* is guilty and should be shut down. And you should agree with that. This was a ghastly way to run the program.

            Now when you shut down any program, those innocents who depend on it are going to be hurt. But it’s not the intention to deliberately hurt them. That’s just a side effect.

          • zachv

            In the end, I think I could go either way on this.

          • Tbone

            nt

  • izoneguy
  • westcoastpatriette

    I agree with every word. And you make very clear why shutting football down at Penn State is the only viable option.

  • Viet71

    1. The behavior of Penn State leaders was breathtakingly appalling.

    2. Such behavior will be severely punished.

    The posters here who say, focus on the crimes and the criminals only, confuse the criminal law with NCAA sanctions. Apples and oranges.

  • dyarbrough

    The actions of Penn State and its coaches are indefensible, and my heart truly goes out to the victims.

    But it’s the tip of the iceberg in college athletics.

    College athletic programs are rife with abuses ranging from academic dishonesty, non-courses whose purpose is to keep athletes eligible without doing actual work (UNC-Chapel Hill being the latest of many), athletes who are barely literate, athletes who commit violent felonies…

    And intercollegiate athletics, across all institutions, lose money. (Yes, there are a very few exceptions, but the programs don’t exist in a vacuum.) They also, almost without exception, give coaches access to equipment and facilities to support summer camps for their own personal benefit and personal lionization. This lionization results in kids idolizing coaches and facilitates more Jerry Sandusky incidents.

    In addition to the financial losses, the progams divert institutional resources – tutoring, counseling, wasted faculty time on students who don’t belong in a college setting – from their core mission of teaching and research. They also divert institutional development focus from fundraising for teaching and research to fundraising for intercollegiate athletics.

    All this to provide an excuse for drunken tailgate parties for students and alumni, free farm systems for the NFL and NBA at taxpayer expense, and cheap programming for media megacorporations like Disney and Comcast.

    The time has come for taxpayers to scream “ENOUGH!” to taxpayer funded intercollegiate athletics. Disband the NCAA and NAIA. Eliminate the tax deductibility of contributions to colleges which are not specifically used for teaching and research. Shut down athletic departments at taxpayer-funded public universities, and eliminate the tax exempt status at private universities. Let the NBA and NFL run their own farm systems, and let college students run their own sports program at their own expense as these programs originated.

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel

      I’m as big a fan of college football as you’ll probably ever meet, and find your call to shut down NCAA athletics ridiculous.

      Agree to disagree.

      • APA Guy

        nt

      • dyarbrough

        as long as it isn’t done at taxpayer expense.

        The entire college athletics system costs taxpayers dearly – in operating expense for government-run universities as well as lost tax dollars for tax-exempt private colleges and tax-deductible contributions to athletic programs.

        I would note that the Sandusky incident will cost the TAXPAYERS of Pennsylvania over $50 million by the time the dust settles.

        If you choose to watch farm team sports you are always welcome to do so. Just don’t waste my tax money doing it.

        • dyarbrough

          since you are a graduate of an SEC school, where football is as professional as anything in the NFL. It’s just subsidized by the taxpayers of (in your case) Georgia.

    • Bill S

      College basketball and football has become a distraction for the purpose of a university. The school exists to educate…not to provide a minor league for football and basketball. Not to provide an entertainment experience. It’s time to take away the incentives that caused Penn State’s program to become so horrid. College sports should be little more than intramural programs.

  • Darin_H

    If I’m the NCAA, PSU gets worse than what SMU got, they only paid adults to play football. Penn State was allowing a coach to systematically rape young boys. Shut down their entire football program (allow everyone to transfer without sitting out a year) and vacate all wins when Sandusky was coaching. Ask again in 5 years if they can restart their football program.

    I stand by it. Let everyone transfer out so you don’t hurt the players, but kill the school’s football program (probably permanently)

    • http://jeffemanuel.net Jeff Emanuel
    • ncfamilyman

      No way they will do it. Anything short of this is a slap in the face of the victims, but you can’t convince me the institution cares. And institutions, though not people, *can* care about something. It’s the culture.

      You don’t change a culture by bringing in new coaches and a new president. The institution is way bigger than that. And even though Paterno is dead, there’s a good deal left of the institution that let this happen.

      They need to whack the entire sports program, and here’s why. The crimes began in the football program, but they went to the top. And they showed that the institution has severely screwed up priorities when it comes to the safety of children if a sports (*sports*!) program is affected.

      I hate the NCAA with a passion, and I think their faux shock when a player they’ve been exploiting receives some kind of gain for his performance is just that. But I say keep college sports but make them professional. That’s what they are. Instead these kids, the vast majority of whom will never make it to the bigs are awarded a piece of paper for a very inferior “education” that they wouldn’t qualify for on their own merits without sports. And a good number of them get career-ending injuries anyway. “Thanks bro! Here’s your business degree if you can get it. Good luck getting a job with your degree and a statement that you used to play football”.

      Paying those kids would bring a lot out into the open, and we’d have no hand-wringing that somebody paid some kid’s rent after he left it all out on the field for a bunch of hypocrites.

  • montani

    All my in-laws are Penn Staters. One side from Cleafield , the other from Somerset. I’ve been listening to them for decades. There is a fundamental problem with Penn State.

    Penn State fans have explained their decades of bowl loses and lack of national championships (before and since the 1980′s) by saying that they are the most ethical and academically oriented program in the country. When they are slower, weaker, less capable it’s because, well, “PSU doesn’t cheat like other programs.”

    This has been fed by Paterno who believed he was more ethical than other coaches. He once famously said, “Success without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won’t taste good.” They named the library after him.

    It was also fed by a strong immigrant culture who in the words of Rick Santorum was taught there are three things to making it in America, work, work and work. Education and hard work. That’s what they believe in and what they though Paterno and PSU believed in too.

    That’s not bad as far as it goes but it led to a mindset that believes its poop doesn’t stink like everyone else’s.

    Penn State should get the death penalty. They need to clean out that culture and start with a new group of coaches. They players need to be let go to other programs. PSU had the least ethical program these past fifteen years.

    The most important lesson a son can learn from a father who is a thief, or worse, is that crime leads to penalties and it’s not excusable.

  • http://stevemaley.com Steve Maley

    This is not just a bad situation come to light. The school let Sandusky return to campus & continue to use their facilities after his retirement. He felt comfortable enough with his … practices that he carried them on in semi-public. It’s not as if McGreevy walked in on him in a motel room, it was a locker room, for crying out loud. And his proclivities were well enough known around the school to be the subject of sniggering rumors and jokes.

    This was not an era when people in general were ignorant of the problem. All the youth sports programs where I live had training for anyone involved in coaching or assisting, advising of the dangers of, for example, giving a kid a ride home from practice with no one else present. For Sandusky to maintain there was nothing out of the ordinary about a grown man showering with and touching a young person is, well, extraordinary.

    As for the statue, I would melt it down into a simple bronze cube and put it back at the stadium as a silent, solemn reminder. It would stand for 100 years or until the end of civilization, whichever comes first. Maybe make some of it into commemorative medals that you require the big-time athletic boosters to buy (in lieu of stadium seating, parking preference etc.). Donate the money to education & healing programs for the victims.

    This is not about revenge. An important statement must be made. Life>>Football. Paterno had a chance that few of us have: to be a true hero and save some wrecked lives. He blew it.

    • Jack_Savage

      Exactly. That is what makes this whole thing so sickening. Everyone knew what was going on, but the predator chose his victims so well that they had no advocates.

      One of two things is going to happen. Organizations who are in any way involved in working with young males are either going to completely reevaluate their procedures and retool them to eliminate the possibility of gay pedophiles taking advantage of the environment, or they are going away. One of the two.

      • westcoastpatriette

        nearly daring anyone to stop him. Sickening.

        • Mike Ferguson

          “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
          Edmund Burke

          Nothing was done, so evil triumphed for a time.

      • http://stevemaley.com Steve Maley

        There is no gay or straight in this situation. It is a sick exploitation of kids.

        I say this as the father of two daughters, and for several years a girls’ soccer coach (& from time to time asst softball coach) during the same time frame that Sandusky was active.

        The youth sports associations all have videos and other training resources directed at protecting the kids and protecting the coaches from mistaken allegations — simple things, like never give a child a ride home without someone else in the car.

      • littlehouse18

        I don’t think the report says that, what is your source?

  • nateborn

    I am a student at Penn State University. I have been a daily reader of Redstate since 2007. The action and inaction taken on the part of the leadership of Penn State is beyond disappointing. At every step of the way they have made the wrong choice. I’m not sure what your impression of students at my university may be, but if it’s anything like it is characterized by the media, it’s probably pretty poor. After the scandal broke, students were outraged over Sandusky and the leadership’s failure to handle the situation properly and to put the victims first. We worked as a student body to raise money for child abuse awareness and to let the victims know that we were there for them.

    With that being said, tearing down the football institution at Penn State is externalizing the consequences of Sandusky’s actions and inaction of Spanier, Curley, and Schulz. They will surely have their day in court to face justice. Shutting down the football program doesn’t hurt Sandusky, Schulz, Curley, or Spanier. It punishes students, fans and the local economy. Of course this is trivial in comparison to what the victims experience, but administrating justice is not about externalizing punishment. Though I disagree with you, Jeff, the article was well written and made me think, thank you.

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      is the least that should happen. And, given your total lack common sense, a total lack of the concept of justice and priorities, you would never get a job in my business.

      Students, fans and the local economy all deserve to be made an example of what happens when those in charge are allowed to put their personal interest and well being above a crime like this. They didn’t ignore it, they enabled it. Personally, I hope every one of the bastards who had anything to do with Sandusky’s retirement and the decisions to not report him end up in prison and that their estates are left in deep debt from lawsuits.

      You need to get your head into the sunshine sonny, you’ve been drinking the Kool Aid. You’re no better than Schulz, Curley, Spanier or Paterno.

      • nateborn

        I’m surprised character assassination is okay on this post. Please substantiate your claim about my “total lack of common sense” and my lack of “concept of justice and priorities”, as well as the idea that I am no better than the enablers of Sandusky. We may disagree, but attacking the character of someone who you do not know reflects poorly upon yourself, not me.

        I am sorry, but I don’t view justice as a tool to make an example out of people. The justice system serves to punish those who violate the rights of others.

      • ncfamilyman

        Or as I like to call them “idol worshippers”, has been brought about by themselves.

        I like that Paterno’s legacy has been destroyed, but the sports (not just football, ALL sports) programs should have been completely eliminated.

        • nateborn

          that helps you sleep better at night. Please explain to me how I am at fault for the actions of Jerry Sandusky.

          • ncfamilyman

            The religion surrounding the program, and the protection of a false reputation, is what enabled more children to be raped by this monster.

            I’m not saying you are complicit in the rapes of course, but without the legions of fans there’s a hell of a lot less reason for a coverup.

            What happens when Penn State is “rehabilitated” and the craziness starts up again? I know one thing, I wouldn’t go longer than a 5-year contract with any coach in the future, even if goes undefeated. There’s a potential NCAA rule for you. Coaches can only stay for 5 years at any one program.

    • montani

      “inaction of Spanier, Curley, and Schulz”

      Your omission of Paterno is why I think the program should be shut down for a few years. At best he was a disinterested party. At worst Paterno was the instigator of the coverup as Freeh argued due to exhibit 2F, i.e. after talking with Joe they agreed not to go public and only talk with Sandusky.

      The death penalty would be a blessing for PSU. It will allow PSU to get a fresh start with a new set of coaches, AD and president. Without the death penalty, your program will have something like OJ’s reputation.

      • nateborn

        You make a good point, Montani, about the program getting a fresh start. We can debate the findings of the Freeh Report, but the larger point of concern I have is about how we are looking at the concept of justice in this situation.

        Do we, as Conservatives, really support collective punishment for the actions and inaction of a handful of individuals? My understanding of justice has always been that justice serves to punish individuals who violate the rights of others. I have a problem with a system which supports collective punishment.

    • Bill S

      And it sets an example for every other school and/or community that decides to create a culture of “football over everything”.

      So your point is…nonexistent.

      • nateborn

        shouldn’t be used as a tool to make an example out of people. The individuals who covered up no longer serve at the University and will probably end up in jail. Collective punishment and conservatism are incompatible

        • Bill S

          …any more than a fine against a corporation is. It is punishment of the institution – Penn State University. The crime was one committed because of institutionalized culture of ignoring a crime in their midst. The “Penn State Way” is what had to be punished and shut down. It needs to be crystal clear to anyone who works at any NCAA institution that protecting criminals in the name of maintaining an athletics program is not allowed.

          • nateborn

            The sin of 4 people justifies characterizing Penn State as having a culture which ignores crime? Vicky Triponey is a very poor source. If anything she contributed to the University’s problems by increasing central authority and helping further a vertical leadership system. http://onwardstate.com/community/who-was-the-woman-who-stood-up-to-joe-paterno/

            Furthermore, the NCAA decided not carry out a full due process hearing before the Committee on Infractions. Instead they decided to join with the media in their Penn State pile-on. I’ve been a daily reader of this website since 2007, and I’m sad to see the editors follow suit before the facts are fully fleshed out. Too many have put their faith in the Freeh Report, which is erroneous at best.

          • APA Guy

            …and it was done for no other reason than a CYA for the university and its precious football program and image…to the detriment of young children who will never be the same after needlessly enduring rape at the hands of a monster.

            I’m sorry, but you are arguing against the angels on this one. Penn State got exactly what it deserved in this case.

          • JSobieski

            The debt is a problem that spanned multiple administrations, so lets punish the people who had nothing to do with creating it.

            Sounds like a great plan to me.

          • Bill S

            …for the wife and children of convicted felons? Why should THEY be punished by the loss of earning power and departure of their husband/wife/father?

            Sorry, bad stuff happens. Sometimes those who don’t deserve to get hurt DO get hurt by punishment. Criminals have a strange way of hurting those around them.

          • nateborn

            I do have compassion for the wife and children of convicted felons. I see your point though that many innocent are affected by the sins of others. Nonetheless, you’re painting a false equivalency; the difference in this situation is that the relatives of a felon’s circumstances came about after due process and a fair trial. The people involved have had or will have their day in court.

            The past months have been little more than a media circus. No due process. All this is is a knee jerk reaction to the Freeh Report, which is arguably suspect.

          • Bill S

            by Penn State itself! If any report should have shown favoritism towards them, that would be it.

            Penn State’s guilt is self-evident. That report has nothing to do with the media. I have no sympathy towards the institution. I’m sorry the players may have to transfer, but as I noted, bad things happen to innocent people when crimes are committed.

            And frankly, as I previously commented…I would not shed a single tear if every college football and basketball program was eliminated. The semi-pro nature of college athletics has damaged many schools beyond PSU. Kill ‘em all.

          • nateborn

            and the interpretation of the report. What details and facts they decided to talk about have shaped your own opinion (and mine too). It’s difficult to remain objective in a situation which fosters strong emotions on both sides of the isle.

            If the Freeh Report was biased, it would be biased toward the Board of Trustees (who commissioned the Freeh Report). They would be more than happy to keep the focus on the athletic department rather than institutional issues, and they have been quite successful.

            I agree that collegiate (and in my opinion professional) has consumed too much of our attention. My personal opinion on the value of collegiate sports should have nothing to do with my opinion of whether the NCAA acted appropriately. They are two separate issues. You can argue that they are connected, but that’s entirely subjective.

            Thanks for the good debate Bill S, but I’m done arguing about Penn State.
            All the best,
            Nate

          • aesthete

            then we’d be tied up in knots.

            Not shopping at Walmart has an adverse impact on their bottom line, so should I set up a commission to fully investigate my assertion that they provide bad customer service before I decide to patronize another supermarket?

            Should employees have full due process and a fair trial before employers are allowed to fire them?

            Due process and a fair trial are exceedingly important in the context of government, but that is not always the case for all of our interactions outside that context.

          • APA Guy

            In this case, there is a PROVEN cover-up that occurred at Penn State between its Athletic Department, football program, and the administration. The punishment of the football program is not only appropriate, but imperative.

            I’m sorry, but you are arguing on the wrong side of this.

          • Bill S

            I have a great bridge to sell you.

            Naive doesn’t start to describe your contention.

          • APA Guy

            Frankly, Penn State may look back and be thankful the NCAA handed down punishments NOW rather than 6-12 months from now.

          • nateborn

            that this is a knee jerk reaction to the Freeh Report. We’ll have to agree to disagree over the direction the case will take in the coming months, but nonetheless, justice is not served in this decision.

          • APA Guy

            When every gory detail is revealed, I have a feeling that what the NCAA has done to Penn State will be seen as a gift. This sort of decade-long cover-up at a school like Penn State can’t have been confined to four people…no way in hell.

          • JSobieski

            How much does it take?

            If someone tells me “Person X molests kids” do I need to automatically report that person to the police?

            The issue of knowledge is the key reason why i am arguing this point.

            We have no argument if a person sees something or has something more than a rumor to go on. However, in your view, what is the level of evidence that in your mind triggers a duty to call the cops?

            Is a mere rumor enough? If you don’t have direct evidence, isn’t it just a rumor?

          • littlehouse18

            All its programs will suffer, and what it could have provided in many areas will be diminished as a resource for the citizens of the state – students and community alike.

          • Viet71

            Rationalization, as the shrink would say

  • Blue_State_Refugee

    Your article is no different than any other choosing to pile on a punish an institution and its students who had nothing to do with a tragedy that occurred almost a decade ago. Let’s see who we should punish……

    Sandusky……convicted, and hopefully will get to meet the inmates.
    Paterno……passed away. Would you like to step on his grave?
    Prior administration…….all gone, resigned, some still under criminal investigation.
    Penn State civil penalties…….will be huge when the victims either take PSU to court or settle.

    What’s left……oh, of course…..the students.

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      Your stupidity and ignorance are showing.

      • Blue_State_Refugee

        …….letting one’s emotions cloud objective judgment, which is what is going on here. I believe most are intent on exacting the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Reference Genesis 18:26 “And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.” Among the population of the 50,000+ students on the main campus alone, there surely must be fifty righteous individuals.

        • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

          There’s nothing emotional about this. It’s about making a point that children’s lives are more important than a football program.

          I really couldn’t care less how many “righteous individuals” there are on that campus. If there are any they’d be calling for the end of the football program and for state authorities to go after the entire athletic department as it relates to the football program.

          This program, and the people running it, have run Pedophile State for decades. The football program needs to be eliminated and never come back. Since the NCAA, like you, has no moral compass whatsoever they won’t do it. Hopefully, the Big 10 will toss them from the conference and the schools on their schedule this year will cancel the games.

        • APA Guy

          What a fallacious and moronic assertion you are making. Please do tell us how the Lord would spare a FREAKIN FOOTBALL PROGRAM when it willfully and knowingly allowed a child rapist to victimize children over and over again to spare its pearly-white image and the football program that profited from it.

          I wouldn’t be tossing out the Bible to make THIS point in the future, BSR…just a suggestion…

        • ncfamilyman

          go there with the biblical reference? OK then. All 50,000 idolaters worshipped a god-man that knowingly let a child rapist operate in his midst. The only reason there are only 4 people that agreed to cover it up are that THEY COVERED IT UP!!! How many thousands more would have agreed to this for sake of Good Ol’ Hard-Workin’ Ethical Joe Pa?

    • montani

      Paterno picked every person involved with the program. They even named the library after him and PSU has decided to leave Paterno’s name up. PSU football was the most corrupt, unethical program for the past fifteen years. Every coach needs to go and the players should be given the option to leave as it rebuilds itself.

  • eddiethegeek

    The PSU fan base (if current blogs and message boards are any indication) are in denial of the magnitude of the evil, and say things like “Joe Paterno was a great guy who made one mistake…”

    The ONLY way to make it clear to PSU and all others that such behavior is intolerable is to shut down their program for awhile. That is the ONLY just respose from the NCAA.

    And Joe Paterno was a despicable human being. The A/C is out Joe, and it doesn’t look like it’s gonna be fixed for, like, ever.

  • Jack_Savage

    I doubt we hear of a similar situation in that organization.

    • aesthete

      and, from all public appearances, a heterosexual. If you are referring to the Boy Scouts’ policy regarding the sexual orientation of Scout Leaders, then a similar policy in Penn State athletics would not have prevented Sandusky’s employment or subsequent actions in any way.

      By the by, there are plenty of cases of documented child abuse in the Scouts, as there are in any large-scale organization. The *institutional* problem with Penn State had to do with malfeasance on the part of administration in dealing with a credible and ongoing situation involving one of their own, not any policy (or lack thereof) regarding sexual orientation.

      (If you are referring to another Scout policy, then you might want to make that clearer.)

      • Jack_Savage

        “By the by, there are plenty of cases of documented child abuse in the Scouts, as there are in any large-scale organization.”

        If you could help me find these I would appreciate it.

        And FYI, everyone in Happy Valley knew Sandusky liked little boys, so you can forget about trying to convince anyone that Sandusky appeared to be a well-adjusted, heterosexual male.

        • aesthete

          http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/central/orem/article_47b4a149-79b2-5b35-a2a2-73c84e2e4a57.html

          http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4echAAAAIBAJ&sjid=I2gEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4363,5919836&dq=scout+leader+convicted&hl=e

          http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ExIgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QmYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2888,1024104&dq=scout+leader+convicted&hl=en

          http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/16659618.html?dids=16659618:16659618&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Aug+10%2C+1996&author=ANNA+CEKOLA&pub=Los+Angeles+Times+%28pre-1997+Fulltext%29&desc=Ex-Scout+Leader+Gets+Maximum+for+Molestations&pqatl=google

          Just a handful of the cases which exemplify why the BSA established the Youth Protection program. I was a Boy Scout and briefly considered becoming a Scout Leader, and there’s quite a bit of paperwork and literature in the organization regarding this issue.

          • aesthete

            Given that it was common knowledge that Sandusky was fiddling with *young boys* (which is illegal, much more socially unacceptable, and already against Penn State rules), there’s not a damn thing that another broken rule regarding sexuality would have done. From public appearance, he was a heterosexual — and an organization predisposed to allow innuendo or common knowledge as proof to the contrary would have done the same in the case of kiddy-fiddling, regardless of their practices regarding sexual orientation of leaders in authority.

          • Jack_Savage

            For one.

            Here’s a little question for you – would you say that the instances of gay pedophilia are more common in organizations that have bans on gays serving in leadership roles, or more common in organizations without such bans?

          • aesthete

            Sandusky has had no liasons with adult men, as far as I’m aware, and again the evidence that you cite is “common knowledge” (and only in the case of liasons with pre-pubescent children). Molesting children is already grounds for dismissal and jail, as I said before.

            And as has been stated several times before, administration had no interest in firing him and was itself complicit in his staying on the program for a decade as these “incidents” took place. That was the complaint which motivated Jeff’s front page post in the first place.

            As far as your question goes, it’s irrelevant to the specific topic at hand, and since I have have no hard data on the subject, I’ll refrain from speculating. Certainly bans on such have not stopped high-profile sexual abuse cases in organizations with such bans, such as clergy or leadership in various Buddhist and Christian organizations or others such as the BSA. (Among other preliminary questions, one would have to ask whether paedophilia is not itself a unique sexual orientation separate from heterosexuality and homosexuality, or if perhaps it has anything to do with orientation per se as opposed to power dynamics and such.)

          • Jack_Savage

            How about having an unusual interest in and borderline activities with said children? Grounds for dismissal? Would you have fired him for that, because that seems to be all that anyone could prove without the testimony of the victims.

            Here is the main question, which you have glossed over. We know this happens in organizations – what do you do to prevent it?

            Here is another question – if “broken rules regarding sexuality” don’t work, do you support male leaders of Girls Scouts being involved in the most intimate activities of living with the girls they lead? Why or why not?

          • aesthete

            which should be de-linked:

            1) Strong institutional protections for children coupled with relatively weak employee defenses against allegations in the context of private institutions

            2) The effect of policies regarding sexual orientation in leadership positions on abuse as an institutional factor

            3) The effect that a lack of said policies had in the Sandusky case

            My responses in order:

            1) Generally good in the case of high-profile positions, though there need to be some avenues for redress and in-house or independent investigation to allow for the possibility of a false positive

            2) Ambiguous. The proximate causes of and motivations behind paedophilia are unknown, and it strikes me that the deterrent effect would range from extremely weak to non-existent (are there many “out” gays in committed relationships or otherwise who molest children, as opposed to closeted ones? Is there even a correlation or higher statistical incidence of paedophilia among homosexuals? In short, where is the data and where is the analysis?) I’m fine with private organizations having their own policies regarding same, but the evidence in play forbids me from going much farther than that in defense of such policies.

            3) Non-existent, for the reasons I detail above. The problem was not a lack of rules but inadequate enforcement and investigation from administration.

          • Jack_Savage

            Let’s take the last two:

            2) Where is the data and where is the analysis? Are you kidding? Would you like this to be your line of research? Or to ask another way, would you like your home to be fire-bombed when you proved a link between homosexuality and an increase in proclivity to pedophilia? Or would you make a decision based on the fact that gay male pedophiles currently have an organization dedicated to erasing the barriers that currently exist between them and their prey?

            If you had to make a bet with your life, and you wanted to reduce the possibility of gay male pedophilia in your organization, would you allow or disallow gay male leaders?

            3) OK – what rules regarding sexuality among football coaches did Penn State have in place? Or is your verdict of “non-existent” based on nothing more than conjecture?

          • aesthete

            When is the last time anyone got firebombed for being anti-gay? There’s been far more violence directed towards gays in this century than violence coming from gays. I’ve heard more absurd things than being afraid of gay violence, but they’ve all been in the context of someone screaming at me and offering me a pamphlet or a book that will “change my world”. An absence of evidence is not evidence, and I refuse to accept a half-baked theory of gay terrorism as a substitute for a lack of evidence. I am being honest in saying that I don’t know what the evidence says — perhaps there is a study on this subject; I don’t know. I won’t tar an entire group on the basis of sentiment, as has been done with Tea Partiers by the MSM as recently as last week. I don’t have to make a bet with my life, and neither do any of the organizations we’re talking about. Snap judgements based on an artificial “do something” ticking clock have been the basis for many bad decisions in the corporate and government world, and I would rather not participate or lend support to such a flawed decision-making paradigm.

            As far as Penn State goes, they could have had the best by-laws and policies on the book, and it wouldn’t be worth a tinker’s dam if no one enforced those rules (as was the case). The rules in place are completely irrelevant, for the same reason that a law against murder is effectively irrelevant in Somalia.

          • Jack_Savage

            “Among other preliminary questions, one would have to ask whether paedophilia is not itself a unique sexual orientation separate from heterosexuality and homosexuality, or if perhaps it has anything to do with orientation per se as opposed to power dynamics and such.”

            What difference would that make? Or would you suggest special rights and privileges for pedophiles, should it be proven that it is a unique sexual orientation?

          • aesthete

            that the specific sexual orientation of homosexuality would likely not be dispositive in identifying and preventing paedophilia.

          • Jack_Savage

            And given your common sense and the data available, what do you think the answer is? And if the answer is “yes”, that homosexuality IS dispositive, what should be done? By organizations? By society?

            And do you think the gay activist community has a keen interest in making sure that no one ever knows what the answer really is?

          • Jack_Savage

            1982? 1988? 1996?

            I think you would agree with me that this hardly represents a pattern or trend in the BSA. Would you say that the BSA’s “broken rules regarding sexuality” had anything to do with it, or not?

          • aesthete

            There were dozens in Oregon alone during the more publicized sex scandal involving the BSA in that state. Those are ones that I picked out at random.

            My post proved the negation of the existentially quantified statement, “There exists no incident of sexual abuse in the BSA”, which was why I felt no need to go beyond that.

          • Jack_Savage

            The hypothesis is that preventing gay males from serving in leadership positions in organizations that serve male children will help minimize child rape. No one seriously believes that it will never, ever happen.

        • ncfamilyman

          that Sandusky was a “kiddie diddler” as the cops say.

          But my Scout Leader, who was also my next door neighbor and had a foster boy and was the principal of my junior high, was one of them also. Now after two convictions he is classed as a dangerous predator.

    • zachv

      I believe in the mission and integrity of the organization, but, no, the BSA has had many, many similar problems. Sexual abuse is not exclusive to any one organization or group and is prevalent to the point that 1 in 4 women and 1 and 6 men have reported being abused before the age of 18.

      • littlehouse18

        I think they are excessively high. 1 in 4 women strikes me as left-wing propaganda. The ratio goes up every time I hear this,

        • zachv

          is the source.

          … why in the world would the amount of children being sexually abused have anything to do with politics or “left-wing propaganda”?

          • littlehouse18

            The propaganda is intended to make women feel like victims, and indeed to spread a culture of victimhood generally so that the government can come in and become “Daddy”. It’s meant to break down the family.

            Liberal colleges have said the ratio is now 1 in 3 women have been sexually assaulted. They count experiencing harsh language as part of that. Do you find this agrees with your real-life experience? I doubt it.

            The APA defended a study that suggestes that adult-child sexual interaction could be positive for the child. They have since backed away from that under public outrage. I think you will change your view of the credibility of that organization.

    • teaforme2012

      gain access to the BSA files in Oregon, where there have been numerous allegations over the years of sexual abuse. So far, the organization has been a bit like Mitt in turning over its records.

  • veritaseequitas

    protect the Penn State foot ball program, while Sandusky raped young boys, are just as guilty as if they had stood in line in the showers waiting their turn.
    It is only a first step that the statue came down, the whole football program should be killed and then everyone who had knowledge should be prosecuted and jailed. They cannot go far enough to make up for the suffering of these young men.
    If I had a college age child who wanted to go to Penn State, they would be paying for their education themselves.
    When will we, as a society stop making excuses for moral deprivation?

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    somebody who’s innocent? For example, after the NCAA determined Reggie Bush was paid in violation of NCAA rules, USC got 4 years probation and had to forfeit the last 2 wins in 2004 and the entire 2005 season. They were also banned from a bowl game for 2 years and lost multiple scholarships. So the current players and coaches who had nothing to do with those seasons at least partially suffer the consequences. That’s how it works when you punish the program.

    In the case of Penn State, there may have been some innocent employees who didn’t know what was going on, but how would you ever determine how far the corruption went when the cover up has been so massive. As Jeff correctly notes, in this case it was the program and its leaders that so thoroughly ignored the abuse of children, so it is the program that must be punished. Besides, I can’t imagine who would want or be proud to play for Penn State anymore, and you’re just asking for trouble from their opponents.

    • teaforme2012

      I’m sure there were plenty of employees at Arthur Anderson who needed to find new jobs. Crimes often have victims, innocent or not.

  • Viet71

    And not get the D.P.

    We’ll see 9:00 a.m. EST Monday morning.

    Penn State football will survive, in other words. Maybe at 3/4 speed. Problem is, the FB team will still be good, and the NCAA penalty, once satisfied, will be the end of the matter.

    Five years from now it will be, Jerry who? Victim number 4?

    • APA Guy

      http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8188629/penn-state-nittany-lions-not-facing-death-penalty-monday-ncaa-source-says

      So, SMU deserved the Death Penalty for giving players cash, but PSU doesn’t deserve it for covering up child rape?

      Unbelievable…and an outrage.

      • tnfriendofcoal101368

        The penalties that will be handed will be a defacto death penalty in that the length of the bowl ban and cut in scholarships will negatively affect recruiting down to a Vanderbilt level. I don’t know – Emmert has been a squish on penalties as President of the NCAA. The NCAA won’t shut down the program though – they’ll never take that step again.

        • tnfriendofcoal101368

          It looks like they are going a different route. Here is one of the Penn State trustees:

          “Emmert has been given full reign by the pansy presidents (at other universities) to make his own decision,” said the trustee, who spoke on condition of anonymity. “He has been given the authority to impose these unprecedented sanctions. It’s horrible.”

          I can’t state with words my sorrow for the football team at Penn State.
          #sarcasm

          • Viet71

            Give me a break.

            The NCAA is going to placate both the public and Penn State.

          • APA Guy

            Stinks, but what can you do? They are self-governing and beyond oversight…and I’d rather have it like that than have congress force their way into it and make it even worse than it is already (if that’s possible).

          • acat

            … of the higher-end college teams.

            Assign each NFL team a list of colleges in each conference as “farm teams”, include some basic revenue sharing, and run college ball like the business that it really is.

            Do you think this would have continued if the Pittsburg Steelers management had a hand in Penn State?

            Mew

          • APA Guy

            …because there would have been business considerations rather than just a football team, a coach, and a reputation to consider.

          • tnfriendofcoal101368

            As I had said, but the NCAA is never going to go there again for any reason. The membership decided they weren’t going to cripple programs like SMU again; they just aren’t (if they won’t give death penalty sanctions for this Penn State mess; they never will). Emmert is going to give the worst sanctions; that the membership will allow him which I suspect is a multiple year bowl ban and reduction of scholarship.

  • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

    the teams on their schedule – which I understand is rather weak – have the moral fortitude to cancel their games with Pedophile State.

    • Viet71

      Let the Big Ten teams boycott Penn State.

    • tnfriendofcoal101368

      1) 60 million dollar fine (equivalent to one years revenue) – essentially the university will play next year without revenue

      2) 4 year post season ban

      3) Scholarships reduced from 25 per year to 15 per year for 4 years

      4) All student-athletes currently on the team may transfer and be immediately eligible

      5) The university must honor all current student athlete scholarships for the duration

      6) All wins since 1998 are vacated- the record book will no reflect Joe Paterno as the all time winningest coach

      It’s not the death penalty certainly – but no university would be happy to get this either so many are right they tried to thread the needle…large sanctions without shutting the program down.

  • Viet71

    A monster for elevating Joe Paterno. For elevating the football program. For money.

    The Board of Trustees is the willing head of the monster.

    The wealthy alums who have funded the football program/university are the cardiovascular system.

    Anyone here who is alum of a traditional Big Ten university knows about big league sports from his or her days at college. Sports were great. They did not dominate the university, however. Look at Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Ohio State, for example. Great sports. Superior academics.

    Penn State is different.

    It may be OK academically. But academics were subverted to sports, which was not the Big Ten tradition.

    • renl57

      You’re implying that a large organization will cover up child rape for financial reasons. Yet I haven’t heard of widespread atrocities of this or other types at America’s Fortune 500.

      Evidently it’s still possible for a businessman to pursue big profits and still have some semblance of personal morality (cf. Romney, Mitt).

    • JSobieski

      The entire football team is functionally literate. The rest of the schools in the Big 10 allow football players to take weight lifting for academic credit. Don’t fool yourself, Div I football programs boasting of strong academics are measuring themselves on a generous curve.

      • ffc99

        Even Michigan, the only Big 10 school Viet mentions above that I would argue has “superior academics” (to use his words) is noted for having a less than rigorous jock track. And if you want to talk about a school being admitted to the Big Ten with a grossly inferior academic reputation (compared to the rest of the conference) you should be talking about Nebraska. Penn State actually has a slightly better academic rep than some of the traditional members.

  • teaforme2012

    is because the NCAA knows it would kill Penn State’s program completely, just like it did to SMU. And there’s too much money in Penn State football.

  • runner12

    out to me. One was the reaction of an unnamed trustee who appeared to be put out that the NCAA was going to impose sanctions, referring to the other presidents in the conference as “pansies.” It was unclear if he was mad about the sanctions themselves or that the NCAA is circumventing the Infractions Committee process and just going with the Freeh report (which seems appropriate given the circumstances). Either way, it just seemed like the guy was not living in reality and his comments I found shocking and just plain wrong.

    The second thing that stood out to me was the unprecedented (unprecedented due to the unprecedented situation at PSU) nature of the act if the NCAA does decide to act. This is coming from a former member of the Infractions Committee. He seems to call into question the NCAA’s jurisdiction in this area, yet admits that the rule that will most likely be used to justify involvement by the NCAA is a “lack of institutional control.” It is a good discussion and highlights what is a complicated situation for the NCAA. I think that is why the NCAA has preceded with caution and deliberation.

    Despite the possibility of the NCAA stepping outside of its past boundaries, I think that the NCAA has no choice but to act in order to preserve the integrity of college football as a whole.

    • runner12

      Sheesh!

    • bk

      is that all these articles are saying the actions will be unprecedented but won’t include the death penalty. Uh, which is it? For it to be “unprecedented” it would have to be more severe than SMU’s death penalty was right?

      What’s ironic looking back on it is that to the 11th hour the trustees continued to protect football above everything else. When they threw Paterno under the bus just before he died, they had no idea whether he had done anything wrong or not. (Most of them anyway.) They just knew the football team was 8-1 and in a position to go to a good bowl game if they finished out the season, continuing to make a lot of money for the school.

      • runner12

        which the NCAA is acting. The NCAA typically only deals with violations that cause inequality on the playing field, that is their primary function. They have never been involved regarding the criminal actions or moral actions of a University. The NCAA is a private, voluntary organization that is mainly concerned with cheating and and maintaining a level playing field.

        For this reason, many questions arose regarding whether this situation was within their jurisdiction. That is why they took some time to deliberate. Given the wide scope of cover-up within the football program and the AD office, the reports indicate that they will use the “lack of institutional control” as the means in which to act. Which is a move I happen to agree with. If ever there was an instance of “lack of institutional control”, this would be it.

        I agree with your last paragraph. While Paterno certainly bears some blame, there are other higher-ups who share equal (if not more) blame. The attitude of the trustee in that article was simply astounding.

        • bk

          The penalty itself wasn’t necessarily unprecedented (though one can argue whether it’s worse than SMU’s death penalty) but what led up to them applying it was.

          I also wondered if the various leaks coming out that it wouldn’t be the death penalty indicated a lack of institutional control on the part of the NCAA. :-) And I guess this gets us past the Myles Brand days, where the worst thing it seemed a school could do was have an Indian name.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    A culture that puts football over lives exists.

    • APA Guy

      I love college football as much as the next fan, but cover up child rape and I’ll see your program go down in flames…every time.

    • avgjo

      Yes sir.

  • davenj1

    An ounce of detrerrence is worth a pound of cure. Or in this case, maybe a football program, or any program for that matter, will think twice before trying to cover up serious chages. In this case, they were the most heinous. And yes, Sanduskey hid behind the skirt of PSU’s reputation and they allowed him. It reflects directly on their football program and the sainthood that surrounded Paterno. And, quite frankly, what happened at PSU is infinitely worse than what hapened at SMU. Gee- systemic child abuse versus recruiting violations. Really? There is no comparison. If SMU can have the book thrown at them for a violation of NCAA rules, Penn State can have a stack of books thrown at them for violation of criminal laws.

  • Thomas_Alan

    The whole NCAA structure should be torn down. These people have control over their students’ lives that no one ever should. The SMU scandal? Reggie Bush. Guess what…Good for them. It was none of these people’s business if a program wants to pay them. If a player wants to hire an agent. If a player wants to accept endorsements. If someone gives them a cushy job. These schools make millions on the backs of these players that they make rules denying them any benefit beyond the breadcrumbs of a free education which costs the school next to nothing.

    I don’t watch college athletics. No where else in America would we allow such rampant exploitation of young people.

    • PowerToThePeople

      watch college athletics else you would not have made such an ignorant asshat comment.

      Stick to needle point.

      • Thomas_Alan

        Sorry. I know how much you enjoy watching your exploited players.

        • PowerToThePeople

          there asshat, and try to keep up here,

          A) Every player that has ever played NCAA sports knows the rules prior to playing and agrees to abide by said rules. This means there is no exploitation.

          B) Most of the scholarship players could not have afforded a higher education had it not been for the scholarship. They would have ended up in dead end jobs and poverty had it not been for the skill they received a scholarship for. Not too mention the exposure to pro ball and the possibility of a huge payday that would not have occurred had it not been for their play in college. Do not see the exploitation here.

          C) Players are not paid for a very simple reason, it takes away the purity of the game and keeps mega schools from being able to dominate all sports, which by the way, would cause many of the smaller schools to shut down their sports programs.

          D) Few schools make as much money as you think off sports. While one program may thrive such as football, others only survive because of the success of other type of sports. Programs pay their own way to road games, pay their own way to bowl games and even with the payoff tend to lose a lot of money, etc.

          And last but not least,

          E) My comment is entirely correct especially considering you made this comment,

          “I don?t watch college athletics.”

          I simply repeated this in my comment,

          “It is obvious you do not watch college athletics”

          So that part of the comment at least is accurate or you are a liar.

          As to the rest of my comment, it is also accurate as only an ignorant asshat would have made the comment you made. And I do suspect needle point is your way of entertaining yourself while men watch sports.

          • Thomas_Alan

            To debunk:

            A. Most don’t have a choice in following these rules.

            To follow that up, even if they agree, it doesn’t make the rules non-exploitive.

            B. By not allowing them to earn what they would in a true market environment, they are being exploited. That there is some value to the breadcrumbs they do receive is neither here nor there.

            C. **** the “purity” of the game. That’s just dumb. It’s a business like any other. Just the participants don’t receive the benefits.

            D. And those programs can take the kids for whom an athletic scholarship is all they can expect to receive.

            E. How does that make me a liar? That doesn’t even make sense.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      It thrives on state-sponsored schools and demonizes wealth creation.

      • 6eorge Jetson

        the pediophile coddling and what should the NCAA do to its member institution.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    There was a supposedly highly competent and independent investigator assigned to the Trayvon Martin case too. And one month later we now know her “report” is garbage.

    Most people have biases and are susceptible to the pressures of public opinion. The best defense we have is our deliberate judicial system. Freeh did less than a bang up job in the follow up to Ruby Ridge and Waco. But the whole world is basing their judgements on a report created outside the scope of our judicial system by a bureaucratic hack and a Clinton stooge.

    • 6eorge Jetson

      I think it’s a lot more the little boy calling out the Emperor’s New Clothes effect than any deference to whatzizname?

      McQueary reported his eyewitness account to JoePa, who had more clout than anyone at Penn State. It went nowhere. Multiple other incidents occurred. By themselves, maybe you can give PSU a pass. After McQueary reported what he saw, no way.

      This is the report that matters (the trial)

      IMO, Freeh produced a pro-forma report. I think the sudden buzz is all about the realization that something’s actually going to be done to the seemingly untouchable PSU.

    • littlehouse18

      I’m thinking that taking out Paterno, a prominent, pro-life, Catholic, strong Republican is giving the libs euphoria today. They have not let a crisis go to waste. This has to be at least a consideration these days in interpreting the news and reports such as this. Liberal academia must be rejoicing. They are trying to erase every one of his achievements even back to his honors in his college days.

      Paterno gave 61 years, a lifetime, to Penn State. I have not heard a single person who knew him or played for him have a bad thing to say about him. On the contrary, they glow with admiration. This has translated to the love and respect of millions. A person does not get that kind of respect without character.

      Yet this is all torn down for one foolish mistake – believing that telling his superiors was adequate. My dad is almost as old as JoePA was, and I can tell you that this whole thing would have been foreign to him. Though he’s a smart guy, I’m not sure he would have believed the allegations or known how to handle it. Paterno said the whole thing didn’t make any sense to him. And remember, he was in decline for a while.

      One mistake vs 61 years of exemplary service and charity – c’mon! Someone above compared the response to a merciless mob or Salem, and it seems to me he’s not far off.

  • its2l82w8

    Of course, the NCAA should ban Penn State football. Anything less than the “death penalty” trivializes these crimes and the corruption within the football program.

    How long should such a ban last? That seems pretty obvious, too. The NCAA should not permit Penn State football during the lifetime of every victim of the program ~ during the lifetime of every child whose abuse was enabled by the Penn State leaders.

    Too much? No, it is not. It is not nearly enough. Penn State football matters less than a grain of sand when compared to the suffering of a single one of its victims. And should the NCAA not exact an appropriate penalty, then every other team scheduled to play Penn State should refuse and forfeit until the NCAA receives the message that some things really are more important than football. Much more important.

  • SFDennis

    For the most part, I rarely disagree with posts I read on RedState. However, in this case I completely disagree.

    The NCAA has no authority to sanction in this case. The NCAA is a body that was set up to “regulate,” if you will, college sports championships. If the NCAA were to sanction Penn State in this case–and make no mistake about it, I expect them to try–they are doing so without concomitant authority. Despite the egregious nature of what happened at Penn State, the university, and the football program, are not in violation of any NCAA rules, since there are no NCAA rules that cover what was done here, and you certainly cannot make up rules after the fact to fit the crime.

    • SoFiMil

      .

      • rbdwiggins

        The sanctions were crafted in the form of a consent decree which all affected parties signed. It’s a done-deal.

        • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

          .

        • PowerToThePeople

          but they could have appealed, they chose not to and that is probably the one thing that will save their future program.

          • acat

            (or are the trial lawyers circling?)

            Mew

          • PowerToThePeople

            but the victims will not receive recompense from the NCAA as it is not their place to grant that. The NCAA simply governs the programs and doles out punishment.

            I am sure every single victim will receive tons of money via the court system even though that does not give them the justice they need.

            So yes, I am assuming the trial lawyers are circling ready to take 60 or 70% of the victims money.

          • rbdwiggins

            since the allegations against Sandusky and Penn State were first made public.

            The sacntions are totally separate from any future criminal prosecution or civil action.

    • runner12

      Could not they act under this statute?

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    Older, respected institutions think they can get away w/ literally anything simply because they are old respected institutions. Too Big To Fail once more bites us in the rear.

  • gmhunt

    Unless everyone that worked at the school, that could have know and did nothing, could be fined and/or jailed, then PENN State should loss its football program forever……..which would mean firing some of the facility, which will never happen, so they should loss the football program forever….sports is NOT why we have “higher” learning institutions in the first place, even if some people think so……..

  • JSobieski

    The only way everyone at Penn State is guilty is if you believe in collective guilt, collective responsibility, and collective punishment. Similar thinking leadings some people to conclude that the US owes reparations to black people because of slavery–even though you and I have never owned a slave.

    If a company failed to pay taxes and ended up owing the IRS millions of dollars, the following things would happen:
    (1) The company would pay OR
    (2) The company would go bankrupt, and there is at least a chance that a buyer would buy the company and at least some of the employees would keep their jobs.

    Under no circumstance would a court say “this company is guilty of tax evasion, and all employees must lose their jobs”

    It is one thing to have inadvertant collateral damage it is another thing altogether to have purposeful collective punishment

    • PowerToThePeople

      so your constant ranting about collective guilt has no bearing on this topic. What you seem unable to understand is that Penn State sports is an entity. It is not recognized as individual people. The NCAA has no authority of the individual, it has authority over the entity. When violations occur, they punish the entity.

      Let me give an example:

      Few years ago, can not remember the program but maybe someone else will, an alumni with unequaled access to the program was meeting with potential scholarship players and paying them to come to his school. He paid some in cash, some in cars, some with free rent. A player was busted, the cards fell, and the program received huge fines, lost many of its wins, and was banned from bowls and from TV for two years. The coach was clueless as was the administrators. But it did not matter as the violations occurred within the entity hence the entity took the punishment. This is not new to NCAA play. this is how it has and is being done.

      No one, including the NCAA is demanding all the players lose their role in football nor has it demanded a single person be fired, so not sure what you comment about the company has to do with this situation. The NCAA simply determined horrific violations occurred and doled out punishment which Penn State agreed to. No players have to leave, no person or persons has to be fired, and Penn State football can continue. So no one is being punished outside of the entity Penn State football.

      There is no collective guilt here as the NCAA has no power to indict individuals or all individuals. The only way your argument would hold water is if the prosecutor simply ordered blanket arrest warrants for everyone involved in Penn State football and that has not happened. You have to understand that PSU football is a program that is considered to be an entity governed by the NCAA. All gains, wins, etc are attributed to all involved even if their involvement was not direct involvement and all punishments are applied to the whole program.

      • JSobieski

        which is what I was responding to.

        Entity-based guilt/punishment is just another way of saying collective guilt and collective punishment.

        The program IS its people. Remove the people, and its a bunch of buildings, a field, a logo, and the tradedress of the uniforms.

        The NCAA is a leftist organization that dishes out a lot of collective punishments. I don’t doubt their power to do so, but I do deny its wisdom.

        For example, the death penalty for SMU hurt who exactly? it hurt the players who had nothing to do with the infractions. The offending players had since left.

        This Penn State punishment will be the same phenomenon.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          none more

          • runner12

            NT

      • JSobieski

        PSU football is a bunch of people doing things as part of the university.

        I am not denying that the NCAA can do what it wants—I am saying that the NCAA has a history of penalizing people who had nothing to do with the problem.

        When SMU incurred the death penalty, who was hurt?

        The perpatrators had already left SMU.

  • carmen

    http://michaelbucknerlaw.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/michael-l-buckner-law-firm-statement-on-reports-of-ncaa-sanctions-against-penn-state/

    Food for thought??

    I’m wary of even trying to ‘argue’ when it comes to legal-ese. I’m not a lawyer.

    I think PSU got what it deserved, and more wouldn’t have bothered me a bit. No dog in the fight, here.

    Is there anything to Mr. Buckner’s legal arguments, though?

    • westcoastpatriette

      the circumstances for all he can get. Just my opinion.

  • poillini

    Amazing. Where does the Red State lynch mob assemble to descend on Happy Valley?

    • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

      nt

      • Bill S

        .

  • ihateliberals

    The punishment does not fit the crime in this case. This is a case of the NCAA trying to make itself look all big and bad. Well Bad they are. I am not a football fan or big sport fan of any sports and I think that the punishment of the innocence should have stopped when the University was purged of the culprits. What sense does it make to punish the football players that worked hard for thier wins and thier Bowl victories. They had no knowledge of what was not being done by Paterno. The NCAA says this is to make sure that the Football program does not build itself to a can’t fail situation. Please explain how punishing the Football players back to 1998 serves to accomplish this. Why not just Erase Paterno from the achievements and leave them with the football players. They did nothing wrong. Stripping them of their wins is an absurd thing to do to these players. This is tantamount to finding out Neil Armstrong was a pedophile and saying he never walked on the Moon.

    Penn State has a bunch of whimps now. They should appeal this for the sakes of those gone before. maybe let the future Bowl ban stand but the retro ban isn’t fair to anyone. The NCAA lost a lot of credibility today in their ability to act fairly. maybe since they were in charge during this time they shouldbe disband and new organization take over. Makes as much sense as what they have done to the 1998 – 2011 seasons.

    • ihateliberals

      n/t

    • APA Guy

      The best thing Penn State can do is eat this and take proper steps to heal. Appealing will only turn the public against them further.

      • conservative_dan

        Who decides what the “proper” steps for “healing” are? If you read the responses here, they run the gamut from “leave them alone” to “crucify them”. Paterno is dead, his statue is down, the administrators are out and will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and the coaches have been replaced (maybe not ALL, but if the ones left had nothing to do with it, so what?). Most importantly, Sandusky is locked up. Why the players and students need to be punished is just plain wrong. It’s like punishing the gas station that sold the gas for the Batman shooter.

        • APA Guy

          The NCAA has given them an out. It’s unfortunate that they are faced with such a choice, but the penalty was imperative in this case.

    • conservative_dan

      Yeah, let’s punish all of their peers for something they didn’t do either. The haters are out in full force.

    • rbdwiggins

      Penn State can not appeal the NCAA’s decision.

      The sanctions and corrective measures were crafted in the form of a consent decree which all parties signed.

      It?s a done-deal.

  • tshopping

    I agree totally. There’s a small crack in the NCAA bylaws that permit such an interpretation of “institutional control;” we need to try a truck through it. Suspend the NCAA’s own due process rules for adjudicating student athletic program matters in favor a third-party report prompted by a criminal matter. The NCAA needs to penalize the whole program, past, current and future for this, and in so doing establish the prescient that it alone, and by whatever process it finds acceptable at the current moment, holds the power to regulate what happens on and off the field in programs nationwide. What matters here is the seriousness of the charge. It is clear the majority of this country finds what happened to be completely unacceptable, and destroying PSU’s program will serve as an example to others so this cannot happen again.

    Furthermore, it is apparent that this nation cannot maintain institutional control of its gun laws. Aurora, CO had gun control laws, and they did not prevent Friday’s tragedy. Obama needs to suspend the second amendment immediately and confiscate all arms by executive order; forget about the Constitutional amendment processes or Congress. What matters here is the seriousness of what has occurred. It is clear the majority of this country finds what happened to be completely unacceptable, and taking away arms will ensure that they cannot be used for these purposes again.

    Bloodlust and revenge won’t further the cause of justice, nor will $60M redirected to causes other than the direct victims of this. Everyone’s heart goes out to the victims and their families, and cannot begin to understand their pain. Everyone knows the seriousness of what happened and the tragedy that it could have been stopped earlier. Everyone wants justice done. And I know fans of PSU or not feel embarrassed this this occurred within such a storied program, and tarnishes the records and reputations of all student athletes that have or will play for the university, the academic staff, alumni and student base, not just at PSU, but other universities that have had similar criminal acts associated with them (Syracuse, Miami, well, dozens of them).

    That does not change that this is an unprecedented power-grab by a NCAA that is desperately trying to maintain relevance and control in big-money playoff/BCS-debate dominated college football. They’ve suspended their own due process rules, that are really designed for ensuring a level playing field for student athletes versus addressing criminal matters, and adopted the findings of an outside report in lieu of their own. If successful, they will establish themselves as the sole arbiter, judge, jury and executioner, of all matters that relate to college sports on and off the field. These are the same tactics that Obama uses to bypass Congress, ignore laws, disregard due process through cover-up and hiding behind executive privilege, and set policy by fiat–all under the guise of this is what the country wants. Both dangerously move us closer to mob rule, vigilante justice, and tyranny of the majority–based on the whim public opinion.

    Burn them at the stake, all of them; PSU, past, present, future; perpetrators and victims, guilty and innocent and bystanders, those able to stand trial and those departed unable to offer their defense. Let us pat ourselves on the back that “we’ve made an example of them” all the while turning a blind eye to *numerous* other examples of crimes external to the playing field, as shining the light on those may eat too far into TV revenues. The NCAA, worthy seekers of justice they are, will determine whom to make an example of and when.

    Far too many here seek not justice, but revenge. I am disgusted and appalled that this type of knee-jerk, emotion-based reasoning with complete disregard for due process, impacts to the innocent, unintended consequences, and prescient for the abuse of power, would be advocated on Red State.

    • JSobieski

      If you really want to clean up college sports, force each PSU fan to pay $10 for each PSU football game that they watched since the first Sandusy incident.

    • littlehouse18

      nt

  • noveldog9

    When you fail to make Christ your hero and your role model you are asking for an eventual let down. People are sinful and there is no good in them. They need forgiveness, mercy, and grace. They need Christ. I think the punishment was just considering what these young men went through while they turned their backs on the problem.

    As for Romney versus Obama. Invest in what Romney recommends and run from whatever Obama recommends. In fact if you short whatever companies Obama recommends you will probably be ahead of the game. Obama does not build up he tears down.

    Call Romney Liberal, Moderate, or Conservative, and you still get a man basically honest who loves God, Country, and his family.
    Call Obama whatever you want to and you get failure, lies, and deceit. His big government policies will eventually enslave all who succumb to his attempted deception.

    So if you want freedom and prospirity, then vote Republican.
    But if you want Slavery and poverty, then vote Democratic.

    Bear in mind nearly all of Obama’s bailout companies and those he awarded millions of dollar to have gone bankrupt.

    Romney had an eighty percent success rate reversing their fortunes from bad to good.

    It does not take a rocket scientist to see which man is the real financial genius. That would be Mitt Romney hands down.

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