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Your Issues Are Stupid and Candidates Should Not Discuss Them

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At the outset, I should note that we are generally fans of FreedomWorks, Dick Armey and Matt Kibbe.  We have featured Kibbe’s work on the front page of RedState before.  But less than 24 hours after the most significant election for Republicans in this generation, Kibbe opened his mouth and let some uninformed and insulting commentary fall out, essentially blaming Ken Buck’s loss in Colorado on “social issues.”

Of course, the most immediate point to be made about this analysis is that it is completely unsupported by any concrete evidence whatsoever.  The second obvious point is that it ignores everything that, you know, actually happened in the Colorado Senate race, including the Dan Maes meltdown (coupled with a very strong Dem candidate in Hickenlooper), and the media explosion and attack ads surrounding Buck’s handling of the infamous rape case which could not be adequately answered because of the NRSC’s decision to waste several million additional dollars in California.  This is not to mention the total absence of effective GOTV in Colorado.

However, the most important point is that Kibbe’s remarks – which are mere echoes of similar remarks from Dick Armey prior to the election – are just the latest iteration of the tired canard always trotted out by libertarians that social conservatives are dragging down the coalition and ought to move to the back of the bus and sit quietly while the libertarians win elections.  It is stupid, false, and insulting, and a completely unnecessary own-goal just hours after a major post-election high.


Of course, actual evidence indicates that significant portions of the economic libertarian platform are a good deal less popular with the American people than anything proposed by social conservatives. For instance, FreedomWorks aggressively pushes on their website the position that all the Bush tax cuts should be extended during the recess.  Know how popular that position is, even with the voters who turned out on Tuesday and delivered the Republicans a rout? They oppose it, 52%-39%. What other sorts of economic policies does Dick Armey support that will be unifying as opposed to divisive?

 

When asked if there’s a painless way to tackle debt, he suggested making Social Security and Medicare voluntary.

Dick Armey’s older than I am, so I’m pretty sure he was around in 2005. Maybe he has simply forgotten what a rousing success Social Security reform was in winning Republicans seats, but that’s okay because I’m sure Rick Santorum will be happy to fill him in on how spearheading that effort really helped his 2006 Senate run in Pennsylvania. According to a Bloomberg poll conducted in March of this year, 59% of the population opposes the privatization of Social Security and/or Medicare. A CNN Poll taken in October of 2008 found that the basic outline of the plan set forth by Armey – that contribution to social security should be voluntary – is opposed by the American public by a 36-62% margin. And does anyone want to guess what percentage of the population supports wholesale elimination of the Department of Education, another libertarian holy grail?

When compared to these issues (which are apparently controversy-free despite being opposed by well over 50% of the United States population), social conservative issues stand up pretty well. The same exit polling which found the full extension of the Bush tax cuts opposed by the public 52%-39% found that by a 54-40% margin, American agree with social conservatives that gay marriage should not be legally recognized.  The 2008 General Social Survey commissioned by the University of Chicago found that 60.6% of the population disagrees with the proposition that a woman should be able to obtain a legal abortion if the woman wants it “for any reason,” suggesting that the majority of the population is persuadable to significant portions of the pro-life agenda.

 

Of course, the fact that policies are unpopular does not make them incorrect or not worth fighting for. Personally, I believe that all the Bush tax cuts should be extended, contribution to Social Security should be voluntary (or not at all), and that huge portions of the Federal Government should be reduced or eliminated altogether. And in fact I believe that given sufficient time, the public can be brought around to agree with these positions. And that is what is so wrongheaded about the argument that Kibbe and Armey are setting forth. It presupposes that if an idea is even marginally unpopular right now it should be immediately dropped from public discussion in favor of more convenient and expedient issues. This approach may well have some marginal net gain in the next election but long-term, it spells disaster for any hope of moving the country to the right as a whole. And furthermore, putting off discussion of those issues for now ensures they will never be foremost in the public’s mind.

The reality, of course, is that conservative politics is a coalition business. Certain libertarian issues are more popular than others, and certain social conservative issues are more popular than others. If we work together in a process of give and take, we can win elections and the end result is that significant parts of the platform that appeal to both sides can at least potentially be enacted. I am not sure who Armey and Kibbe think they are to tell half the coalition to get to the back of the bus and shut up about their issues, or what conceit leads them to believe that their issues are popular and beloved by all, but continuing to indulge in it publicly is a sure way to fracture the group that sustained combined efforts to lead Republicans to victory on Tuesday.

 

We have a major fight yet ahead of us in governing over the next two years, and then a Presidential election. I don’t think Armey and Kibbe suppose that we will have a lot of success if social conservatives spend the next two years telling libertarians to shut up about tax cuts and entitlement reform; let us hope they can understand the folly treating the social conservative wing of the coalition with the same contempt.

COMMENTS

  • texasgalt

    message was a popular idea with the public.

    As a social conservative, it is my hope that conservatives can explain the critical issues facing the country without the different factions within the Republican party gutting each other.

    Right to life is important. Not letting entitlement programs bankrupt the country is a pocket book issue that must be addressed. . . now.

    • chamberD

      . . . that the specific faction within the party that coalesces around the “establishment,” “ruling class,” will understand that the conservative wing — the actual BASE — intends to take the party back and save the nation from the progressives, whatever party affiliation they happen to choose.

      Freedom Works and Dick Armey talk a really good game, saying what itching ears want to hear, in particular LOW TAXES, freedom, jobs. But left unsaid is that they are hostile to the vast majority of Americans who want the border secured, and who believe that there can be no true freedom when the family is under assault by same-sex marriage advocates and pro-abortion, life destroyers.

      Strong, stable, families transmit values; they are FREE people and do not succumb easily to the machinations of statist sophisticates who claim they know better how to run our lives than we do — “and, here, we have a state, tax-payered program to help you make the most of your life.” Bull poop.

      Beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing.

  • tex41lb

    This writer is Rino smooth or and I accept I am still in the wake up basket from last year. What the heck is a “social Issue” . It sounds redistributive, it sounds friendly to nudges left and it sounds conducive to where we were left by the prior Republican congress, on the road to european socialism.

    I’m Listening!

    • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

      Where do you stand on the question of dead babies? Should the Federal government use taxpayers’ money pay to kill American babies or not? Should the killing of babies be allowed nationally by Federal law, or should the states determine whether the killing of babies is homicide within their borders as they do with every other form of homicide?

      • texasgalt

        but some ears will never hear. Pity.

    • The_Gadfly

      a libertarian asks me to support him in an election. And then I’ll ask him how he expects to defend the country when the military is privatized. After which I will tell him no and close the door.

      • aesthete

        Not libertarians.

        • The_Gadfly

          I know because it was a Libertarian Party meeting and being such a small party, they were desperately trying to recruit me. Sort of amusing actually. I got to watch people who desperately want to hold their honor and opinions completely intact try to find a way to compromise with someone who disagreed with them. Sort of like watching Dudley Do Right trying to throw the widow on the train tracks, only live action and it just doesn’t work for the poor guy.

          Some of what they told me was also instructive and I use it to this day, but I’m still a paleocon.

    • texasgalt

      nt

  • Superheater

    Some libertarians love to tell us that its inconsistent to be for limited government by not supporting legalized abortion, gay “marriage”, etc-which is specious reasoning at best. (i demonstrate my respect for limited government by forcing my fellow citizens to bow down to a government imposed redefinition of marriage???)

    However, pro-life is now the majority of the country and gay “marriage” has a dismal record of failure, everywhere except among the imperial judiciary.

    The big “social issue” that was on the ballot this time and is a perennial favorite of libertarians, was marijuana legalization-failed and it failed in CALIFORNIA!.

    Libertarians are good allies on economic issues, but that doesn’t mean we should adopt their entire agenda.

    I tend to think SOME libertarians care far more about the “social issues” than economic freedom.

    • http://www.2010blog.net jsanzone

      who are pro-abortion. Make that, any. Gay marriage you’ll get a mixed reaction, but many of the so-called libertarians out there (at least in the establishment places like Reason or Lew Rockwell) have paleoconservative streaks and sound more like Cal Coolidge or Thomas Jefferson, than Hippie mixed with Nonsense.

      I’m with you on the marijuana thing, though; it’s indeed a perennial favorite. I don’t understand this obsession–it’s a vain and rarely-successful attempt to win over the young Left. If Gary Johnson decides to run for President in 2012, he’ll be finished before he even begins, because his constant repetition of the marijuana “issue” makes him a single-issue candidate, and as California showed us on Tuesday, it’s a terrible single-issue.

      • Scope

        Many may be personally anti-abortion, or pro-life, but, from everything I’ve read they believe that your body is your own property, and, that each individual has the right to choose for themselves on the abortion issue.

        • juumanistra

          The demarcating line of what libertarianism accepts in the name of personal choice stems from the point at which you begin infringing upon the rights of another. The fetus’s right to its own life is a rather fundamental right being infringed upon. But is an unborn child imbued with such rights? That’s the point of intellectual friction between libertarians on this subject, I believe, and they’re in the same boat as the rest of us in terms of wrestling with line-drawing in the abortion issue. (Well, those of us whose end-goal is not a near-total prohibition on abortion, at any rate.)

          But yes, most libertarians I know are either not terribly interested in social issues or are sympathetic to the Left’s social philosophy while recoiling from its economic one. One (usually) doesn’t subscribe to libertarianism out of a burning desire to wrestle with questions of social policy.

          • congressworksforus

            Libertarians just don’t believe in giving the government the power to do things like define marriage.

            Marriage is defined by God.

            So get the government the hell out of the marriage business. You want a legal partnership for things like distribution of estates, who gets to make medical decisions for you? Great! Have at it.

            You want the government to be able to define marriage? Are you ABSOLUTELY INSANE?

            I don’t want the government defining “marriage” one way or the other! Stay out of my wallet, and stay out of my house!

          • Kyle-MI

            Marriage has been socially defined for thousands of years. Governments have worked with that definition for about just as long.

            Now liberals and so-called libertarians want government to redefine the definition. Once redefined they will use government to crush anyone who disagrees. They will force business who disagree with this redefinition to either do serve this redefinition, get sued to oblivion, or shut down business on their own. It is already happening to photographers, caterers, and others in the wedding services industry.

            That is not keeping the government out of marriage. That is using the full force of government to squash dissension. There is not a single libertarian defending these people.

          • chamberD

            Exactly right, Kyle-MI!!!!!!!!!!

            Certain ‘freedoms’ are incompatible. We cannot have freedom to practice religion — our First Amendment right (and a photographer following his conscience not to participate in a homosexual marriage IS practicing his deeply held religious beliefs [now rendered as bigotry among the progressive crowd]) and freedom to marry a same-sex “partner” all at the same time.

            Not when the government demands that peoples’ consciences be crushedd so that its utopian vision is realized. Not when the government decides that homosexual “rights” trump religious freedom.

            Libertarians betray the utter fraud of their political philosophy by failing to come to the defense of people who are coerced by the state, hammered by the state — through the threat of lawsuit — to CONFORM to the latest diktat.

            Personal freedom? Hogwash.

          • http://www.2010blog.net jsanzone

            I’m sure if he were being punished under the law for refusing to photograph a gay wedding, obviously, a libertarian would side with his right to refuse to do business with anyone.

            But, say, what if I were a racist, and didn’t want to serve blacks at my lunch counter? Couldn’t the government punish me, and wouldn’t conservatives be nearly unanimous in upholding THAT anti-discrimination statute?

            There’s a certain level of contradiction in picking and choosing which social norms you expect libertarians to abide by, when the fact is based on principle alone, libertarians support freedom to enter into contracts with, and do business with, whomever you choose, as long as it doesn’t steal or commit violence against someone else.

            If someone were truly being coerced or hammered by the state, I don’t think a libertarian would fail to come to their defense. I fail to see any evidence, unless of course, you’ve got a clip of Andrew Napolitano condemning your photographer there and cheering the state along in its crusade against him and his fellow anti-gay marriage wedding photogs.

          • chamberD

            of totally ignoring the core issue I addressed: Freedom of religion and homosexual marriage cannot co-exist as equal rights in this country. One must be sacrificed for the other.

            I choose to sacrifice homosexual marriage, an oxymoron to any but the most intellectually lazy and libertine. Traditional marriage, the cornerstone of stable societies, is no toy to be played with by Soros types who preach that anything goes, as long as it “fulfills” you.

            There is a line in the sand that decent

          • aesthete

            “Freedom of religion and homosexual marriage cannot co-exist as equal rights in this country.”

            They can, and currently do, co-exist in this country. Gays are perfectly free to go to a church, have a ceremony, and have themselves declared “married”. What is being discussed is whether or not these arrangements should be included in the government definition of marriage, and thus be allowed access to the benefits festooned on heterosexual couples by government. As a libertarian conservative, I would prefer that government get out of marriage altogether and stop artificially cheapening marriage through this involvement. In the meantime, I’m not particularly interested in enshrining the federal recognition of marriage as a “right” for either homosexuals or heterosexuals: neither group is entitled to different government treatment, nor does anyone in those groups need to be penalized for how he lives his life. To paraphrase Jefferson, the policy of the US government should be not to restrain or aid citizens in their pursuits.

          • congressworksforus

            If you allow the Government to define marriage as “one man and one woman” i.e., you permit the Government to DEFINE MARRIAGE (even if their FIRST DEFINITION is one you like), you have just given the Government the right to DEFINE MARRIAGE. PERIOD.

            WAKE THE HELL UP!

          • streiff

            you’ve firmly established your idiot cred. Your grasp of history is perhaps irredeemably flawed.

            Another outburst like the last two is going to get you banned.

          • congressworksforus

            You want to ban me? Fine, do it. Big mistake. Just proves you can’t debate and are willing to engage in censorship to suppress opposition to your viewpoint. Sound familiar? It should — we’ve just spent the last two years fending off such attacks from the Left. Let’s not become them.

            There’s nothing wrong with people’s social conservative beliefs. I share many of them. I just don’t believe anyone in their right mind would willing grant the power to define things to the Government, especially things that have been around for thousands of years longer than this country has even existed.

            Our rights are inalienable. They are given to us by our creator, NOT by the Government.

            Is that too difficult for people to understand?

          • kestrel

            which you also voiced earlier in the day. Putting my answer into words will take me a little time. I’m trying to approach the question from a somewhat different angle. I’ll be back in a bit.

          • kestrel

            While marriage is given by God, it *is* also defined by social consensus, which is why for many years, Christians and atheists had no argument over defining it.

            We are not now seeking to give government the power to define marriage. Rather, we are giving to government (which is supposed to be *us* BTW) a fully formed, existing definition of marriage, for the purpose of incorporating it into our body of law to protect it. Do you see that this is a “bottom up” process rather than a “top down” one? We can also change or repeal a law in the same way, because the power of the government is derived from the consent of the governed. This is what democracy *is*.

            If homosexuals want to change the definition of marriage that we’ve had for thousands of years, the method in a democracy is to seek to change the consensus of society by persuasion. So far they haven’t been able to do this, so they are seeking to impose their will in a “top down” manner by means of the judiciary. This is the authoritarianism, or tyranny, that Kyle and ChamberD are talking about. Is this making sense to you?

            If not, maybe Kyle-MI and/or ChamberD, or someone else, can add something.

          • aesthete

            And to the extent that democracy is important to conservatives, it ought to be concerning. This subversion of republican principles certainly bothers me. However, this is not the primary reason that social conservatives oppose gay marriage: there have been plenty of other popular referenda overturned by legislatures or the courts that have not bothered social conservatives (referenda to legalize medical marijuana in AZ, for instance, were passed twice prior to the 2010 election and foiled through legislative or legal means). Were every state in America to change their definition of marriage to include homosexual partnerships using referenda, social conservatives would work tirelessly to get these definitions overturned through voter education, lobbying, counter-referendums, etc. Social conservatives do generally care about the process being correct (the rank-and-file would likely not approve of a court, for example, overturning a referenda establishing gay marriage), but they also care about the end-state (the legal definition of marriage being changed to include homosexual couples).

            Most libertarians and libertarian conservatives tend to agree with social conservatives regarding process. Where they disagree is with the end-state: generally speaking, libertarians feel strongly that the state shouldn’t be involved in marriage at all based on the reasons that are typically given (anti-liberty, subversion, etc), and they tend to see gay marriage as a second-best choice, for several reasons (I think that they’re wrong on it being “second best”, but that’s neither here nor there). Social conservatives believe that society has a compelling interest to protect/subsidize traditional marriage, given that it is a bedrock of society, and that this interest is compelling enough to warrant government involvement and some redistribution in favor of married couples. Both views are not held based on how popular they are among the general populace, for then they would not be principles.

            I think that we can agree that, regardless of beliefs on the issue, we should follow process and rule of law (i.e, judges following their clearly-defined roles), and that there is a conservative case to be made in favor of government not being involved in marriage — IMO, both views are derived from conservative thought.

          • kestrel

            I never suggested, nor would I, that “process” is the primary reason social conservatives oppose gay marriage. My point was that the statement “giving the government the right to define marriage” can be misleading in appearing to give broader and more absolute power than is the case.

            Regarding your last paragraph, IMO, the only conservative case that can be made for government “not being involved in marriage” is a purely theoretical case. Sorry, but I don’t live in a theoretical world.

            Since you are an aesthete, I think you can appreciate a quote from Abigail Adams here.
            “Deliver me from your cold, phlegmatic preachers.”

          • kestrel
  • juumanistra

    I admit, I’ve always been sympathetic to the libertine wing of the coalition’s pleas to downplay social issues while on the campaign trail. It’s an instinct bred out of having been burned one too many times on them. Actually, attach an addendum to that: We can give as good as we get on most “social issues”. What this really all comes back to is abortion and the role of God in public life, where every time someone on our side opens their mouth on the subject they invoke the political equivalent of the Godwin Rule, which states that any time a conservative talks about abortion or faith, the Left reflexively breaks out bloody coat-hanger imagery and talk of Christian theocracy. To that extent, I’d say that Kibbe is right in so far as saying that social issues can be a distraction.

    That said, though, I also think Lex gets the better of this particular scrape, in that there are far more prominent and culpable culprits for Buck’s coming up short in Colorado. Though I’m not sure how much of that blame I’d hang on the NRSC’s decision to pump money into the California race. (Maes, I think, ought to bear most of the blame for what transpired, as his inability to put together a serious run inadvertently blew up the state’s GOTV effort. As the RGA packed up when Maes imploded, and it was the RGA to whom the NRSC had subcontracted GOTV. What other blame then should them be apportioned to the NRSC for not finding the resources to pick-up the GOTV tab in CO.)

    • aesthete

      Though I don’t think we should shy away from our views on abortion (and though I don’t share them, I wouldn’t want our candidates chickening out of defending their views vis a vis marriage), they can be an immense distraction at times, both the drama that comes from social conservative leadership from time to time, and the way in which ostensibly conservative “leadership” excuses its abhorrent track record on fiscal issues by pointing to “successes” on the social side (which are usually symbolic in nature).

  • http://teejaw.com TeeJaw

    So, let

  • chihank

    Despite the Tea Party’s focus of economic issues, many Tea Partiers are pro-life and won’t support a pro-abortion Republican (remember Mike Castle)?

    I think Tea Party candidates need to carefully think about how to answer questions about social issues. The media is going to ask questions about them.

    BTW, what Kibbe think about Raase’s loss in West Va? Manchin hammered Raase for wanting to do away with minimum wage.

    • SeriousLaff

      They keep their mouths shut about views that are unpopular with the voters until after the election.

      • SeriousLaff

        Didn’t really mean” unpopular views”. In a media campaign the media looks for a 10 second sound bite. If a candidate always starts out with an abortion comment, they become a single issue candidate and lose. If they talk about the economy or other issues that most independents find more important then they have a chance. Same with talk about abolishing the minimum wage or Social Security. These issues can’t be explained in a soundbite and will only hurt a candidate who tries.

  • DRayRaven

    Fiscal conservatives/libertarians have done a horrible job explaining their policy ideas and educating the American public exactly how huge government policies like Social Security and Medicare actually drag down their retirement savings and raise the cost of health care. They have also put in an inadequate effort in explaining how government is the real heartless villain in all this and why the free market (and individual freedom) is the more compassionate option.

    However – we are talking about the logical extensions of fiscal conservatism, not what is typically put forth in an election. Lower taxes, lower spending, and smaller government are winning propositions, more often than not and in most electorates. I firmly believe social issues muddy the waters and drive voters away who otherwise agree with those core principles. Most voters do not want politicians casting aspersions on their personal lives and passing judgement on them – and they definitely do not want social issues and personal morals to become government policy.

    That is not to say government should fund people’s bad choices – and it should definitely not fund medical procedures like abortion large portions of voters find morally objectionable. But that’s a long way from saying it should be illegal in all cases because a large minority (or even a majority) oppose it on religious grounds.

    Furthermore, any reasonable person would have to admit that some voters who might otherwise agree with conservative economic principle may feel strongly enough about their own personal social freedom to vote Democrat. And in many cases, they do.

    While we’re at it, why oh why is it OK to impose government policy on social issues, but not economic ones? I think we should have freedom for both.

    Insofar as government policy currently subsidizes or otherwise intrudes on personal, social decisions, I say we need strict contructionist judges. And then we can let the chips fall where they may.

    If more politicians would adopt this attitude, it would take a major weapon away from the mainstream media’s arsenal against conservatives – and I wouldn’t have to roll my eyes every time a conservative politician I otherwise agree with waxes holier-than-thou about abortion or gay marriage.

    • acat
  • charlesmartel

    But I actually agree that the Tea Party/GOP should not make “social issues” a priority right now, if ever. I don’t want the government involved in my marriage, my children’s lives, my pregnancy, my religion or anything in that realm. Make sure my tax dollars don’t go to pay for or support abortions, but beyond that, the government should not be in the business of legislating morality. Besides, we have much bigger problems to tackle right now, fiscally. Prove that they can fix the economy, then they can start worrying about making sure my kids aren’t overweight.

    If the GOP does it, that means it’s okay for the Dems to do it too. And if we say it’s okay for the government to intrude on marriage, why shouldn’t they be involved in, say, childhood obesity?

    • congressworksforus

      (nt)

    • kcdude

      While I think it would be great if we could keep our tax dollars from funding things we do not believe in and let that be it but I think the government can and should be involved in drawing the line in some cases. I do share your thinking on abortion but I would add prostitution, illegal drug sales – marijuana, pornography – child, to name a few, to the list of items that should have some government control by law or regulation. I think if the government does not stop (or slow down) some of these ‘social’ ills you and I won’t fret so much about the fiscal side because of the rapid breakdown of society.

      • charlesmartel

        No one is talking about legalizing anything and everything. If the left wants to run on a platform of legalizing child pornography and hookers, awesome. They’re not going to suddenly become legal just because the GOP doesn’t make them front and center.

        I’m not saying that we should stop fighting for what we believe in. But there are better ways to fight society’s ills than through government regulation.

        • kcdude

          be a position of everything is fair except abortion. My point is you have to draw lines somewhere. We would probably agree that some things (beliefs) cannot be legislated/regulated and that there are better ways for the ills of society to be fixed. But, stopping actions and activities that result from those ills are another thing altogether. The hands off approach is a fail in my experience.

          More to my original point and your first comment is that I think it is better to take a stand, declare core values and fight for those beliefs. A few years back there was a big dust up over offensive so-called art that was funded by NEA. I did not and do not want my tax money used to produce filth any more than I want it to be used to further the contrived agenda of the man-made global warming folks – and I am a fan of preserving and caring for the resources that God gives us. Pick any issue, save national defense and I think less govenment involvement is usually good but some issues have to be dealt with. I want to know that the candidate I support will take a stand on those issues. I want to know that the candidate I support will appoint a judge who is a strict constructionist.

          • charlesmartel

            I have absolutely no problem with candidates stating their positions on an issue, social, fiscal or otherwise, and then standing behind that position. That’s wonderful.

            But to make a campaign about a social issue, IMO, is a loser. The Dems and the media will immediately pick up on that one issue and use it to paint our guy as an extremist right wing religious nutjob. The election will become entirely about that social issue or issues, ignoring any fiscal positions a candidate may take.

            Get elected, and then, by all means, go about defunding the NEA or Planned Parenthood. But don’t make social issues the focal point, or even secondary point, of a campaign or an election.

          • congressworksforus

            >> My point is you have to draw lines somewhere.

            Yes, it is called the Constitution. Nowhere in the Constitution is the Government given the power to define marriage.

            What part of that do people like you not understand???

          • streiff

            about fiscal discipline either. Congress has the right to print money and incur debt. That’s it. It’s in there. Look it up if you can step away from your Ron Paul pr0n long enough.

          • congressworksforus

            The counter to that is that there’s nothing in there about spending recklessly either…

            :-)

          • aesthete

            that allows for the programs which have created the problem that we are in (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, Dept of Ed and Labor), nor that allow the federal government to regulate business outside of policy that normalizes trade between the states, foreign government, and the Indian states.

            IOW, Congress could (and historically, did) Constitutionally approve a budget in which defense and other Constitutional expenditures exceeded those taxes which were Constitutional (and some of the Founders, like Hamilton, believed it prudent to have some structural debt). That is not what is going on now, and federalism is an ideal point of agreement for the libertarian-minded and social conservatives.

          • kcdude

            I think you missed the whole message. In life people must draw lines or take stands if you will. In politics, I much prefer the whole package – a social and fiscal conservative who will openly declare core values or world view.

    • kestrel

      the headline of the diary into the comment box, and spare yourself the task of writing?

      • charlesmartel

        I agree with the conservative position on pretty much every single “social” issue. I think strong morality is extremely important to a productive society, and I think the country would be much stronger and healthier if we had stronger Judeo-Christian morals.

        But I don’t think that the government is the way to go about making that happen.

        • kestrel

          …that you don’t think they’re stupid. And I appreciate it. Maybe the right word would have been “irrelevant”? — as in, “I think your issues are *irrelevant* (to the subject of governance), and candidates should not discuss them”? I disagree, but I will have to rejoin this discussion later.

  • congressworksforus

    nt

    • congressworksforus

      Sorry, wrong place!

  • congressworksforus

    This was meant to be a reply to the post above.

    • congressworksforus

      My brain hurts.

      TGIF!

      (Mods, feel free to delete my poorly placed comments!)

  • etlib

    Conservatives of all types must stand together. Single issue organizations cannot stand alone and individual politicians must support ALL the conservative view points if they are to win.

    Look at the left. The racial groups all support abortion. the anti-life groups all support gun controls, gun control groups all support the ACLU, the anti religion groups all support the peace groups and everyone supports the greenies.

    Since I see a logical and moral connection between all the conservative positions I have no problem supporting them all but if libertarians insist on socially liberal viewpoints then they will lose.

    Similarly, if pro-life people fail to support fiscal conservative viewpoints the the government will take over and abortions will increase.

    And if gun control groups start focusing on gun control to the extent they ignore the importance of pro-life, lower spending, lower taxes, religious freedom, … the the second amendment rights will be lost.

    Do I need to go on????

    • charlesmartel

      You – and the GOP of the past – have insisted that in order to be successful, the party must fight for a huge array of issues.

      The problem with this is that by doing so, you’re bound to turn off different voters for different reasons. Some maybe because of abortion. Others because of gay marriage. Others because of an emphasis on religion.

      But the beauty of the Tea Party has been its largely singleminded emphasis on fiscal conservatism. By concentrating on a narrow range of issues (low taxes, reduced spending and size of government), the party can include a broad swath of voters who might otherwise be turned off by an overemphasis on a particular social issue.

      You’re never going to get everyone to agree with you on every issue in a huge platform. Make the platform small and focused, and you can include many more voters.

      And, as I said above in this thread, if we’re legislating morality, that gives the Dems the right to do it as well.

      Oh, and I don’t think gun control rights should be lumped in as a “social issue” alongside abortion, gay marriage, etc. It’s an explicit constitutional right. Mix it in with the other stuff and it gets more complicated than need be.

      • The_Gadfly

        would be the reason so many of them turned out at Glenn Beck’s 8/25 rally, which was primarily about social issues and not fiscal ones eh?

        The rest of your post is an ideological diatribe that leads to the same dead end as the leftist ideological diatribes: corrupted cultures unable to sustain themselves.

        Conservative principles survive precisely because they are NOT ideological. They are drawn from observational experiences across the eons of history. Fiscal prudence leads to future sustainability. So do the social issues you rail against. Remove either and the society, which is also necessary to support the individual dies. If society dies, the individual is reduced to barbarism or totalitarian slavery. This is why I classify myself as a paleo even though its standard definition still doesn’t exactly fit my beliefs.

        • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

          I always thought the argument was over to what extent government controlled our lives. Spending drives a lot of that, being where the rubber hits the asphalt so-to-speak, but not all. There’s a lot more to government power than just what shows up in budget numbers. Tea Partiers would have too narrow an agenda if they took that simplistic an approach.

        • DRayRaven

          Gadfly, I agree that social standards and morality contribute to the long term health and sustainability of a society, but that doesn’t mean it’s the government’s place to enforce them. If anything, that’s up to family and church. Government is here to protect our safety and property. It’s pretty well laid out in the enumerated powers of Congress in the Constitution. I don’t see anything in there about enforcing Judeo-Christian notions of morality.

          I agree with the founding fathers who viewed government as an evil – a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless. It should be as small as possible whilst still remaining effective. Launching crusades against declining morality and imposing standards for private behavior shouldn’t be within its purview.

          As I said, leave that up to religion and family.

        • charlesmartel

          Particularly social issues. I’m pro-life, opposed to gay marriage, and almost certainly on the conservative side of any other social issue you could come up with. I find it hard to believe that you even read my comment, based on yours.

          Nowhere do I remotely even begin to argue that we should let go of conservative social principles. I’m basically arguing the opposite, that the best way to strengthen those principles is to let the people, our society, preserve them, not the government. Government-regulated morals are no morals at all.

          And yes, tons of people showed up for Beck’s rally, which is wonderful. But he’s not running for anything. His is exactly the type of thing that our society needs to be doing to preserve our morals, seperate from government. Let him continue to do that, fight for our morals. And let our government worry about the economy and our defense.

    • runner12

      I am a conservative libertarian and I believe the two go hand in hand. For example, I oppose Roe vs. Wade from a moral perspective and because I think the courts overstepped their bounds. They became involved in a moral issue that had nothing to do with constitutional rights. I firmly believe that if it had been left up to the will of the people, abortion would not exist in this country today. That is why we should fight to have Roe vs. Wade overturned and left up to the states. I think that we could successfully convince people of the immorality of the practice (especially given the advances in ultrasound imagery).
      That is just one example of many of the Left using the government to promote their agenda. The way we will fight them is to fight them both on moral and constitutional grounds.

  • Kyle-MI

    Fiscal and social conservatism is not inherently in opposition to each other.

    To put it another way, we lost the elections in 2006 and 2008 because we went flat on fiscal issues. If we go flat on social issues we will loose the next election because we will loose the people who rate those as a top priority to them. Or we can do something so crazy it might just work. We could stand up for both fiscal and social conservatism.

    • kcdude

      5!!!

    • charlesmartel

      Most people are a lot more rigid on social issues. They know their own morality and they’re probably not going to change. So by making social issues part of the fight, you’re almost immediately eliminating the people who disagree with you.

      Whereas, on fiscal issues, most people are more open-minded and willing to take a chance on something or someone new.

      Take social issues out of the equation, and you’re going to rope in a lot more independents and frustrated Dems. Make a campaign equally about fiscal and social issues, you’re probably going to lose a lot of those socially liberal voters.

      Plus, a social conservative isn’t likely to vote for a social/fiscal liberal if they feel ignored on social issues. Worst case, they stay home. Whereas a social liberal could easily decide to vote for the social liberal, even if they disagree with some of their fiscal policies.

      And if we elect more and more fiscal conservatives, we’re naturally going to be electing more and more social conservatives among them. But the campaign and the policy doesn’t need to emphasize that.

      • kcdude

        Why should a candidate be discouraged from declaring pro-life, pro-family core beliefs?

        I much prefer having candidates take a stand.

        I was amused by the ads this cycle that would not give a voter one hint as to the political party (democrat) affiliation of the candidate.

      • streiff

        the stats Lex-Con put in his post demonstrate that.

        • kcdude

          Not sure what you are trying to say with your comment.

          • aesthete

            In that sense, I have to agree with streiff and lex: they weren’t a large factor one way or another in the 2010 election.

  • acrewood

    For more news and commentary, check out The Bond,

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    Ok, I live in northern Colorado and was very involved in the Buck campaign. I can tell you exactly what happened. Social issues were definitely a major factor in why Buck lost. He only got 89% of the Republican vote, and this was due to some pro-choice Republican women defecting to Bennet. It wasn’t that a moderately pro-life candidate couldn’t have won, but Buck was against abortion even in the cases of rape and incest (a position which I actually happen to agree with, as it is not the baby’s fault and the baby should not be punished). However, the Dems were able to successfully weave a narrative about Buck being a woman-hating troglodyte, and it worked with just enough Republican women to swing the race. Of course, there were GOTV issues in some parts of the state, but as noted in another thread Buck won independents by a huge margin. It was the socially moderate Republican women that killed Buck.

    • runner12

      It is amazing to me how so many of us as women could be so deceived as to think that abortion is all about a woman’s right to choose. I yearn for the day when my fellow women will wake up and realize that the Left cares nothing for women’s rights and has used us like they have used every other minority group. Abortion is a multi-million dollar business and money is what it is all about. Sad, isn’t it?

  • runner12

    now it is the social conservatives (aka Christians)? They are beginning to sound as ridiculous as Obama does when he blames Bush for anything and everything. Buck did not lose Colorado because he was a social conservative.
    He lost because there is a signifcant number of the population out West who are entrenched in an entitlement mentality. They like big government programs.
    That being said, I think that in the past we social conservatives (myself included) unknowingly have played right into the Leftists/Progressives’ hands. They kept our focus on social issues and off their attempts to expand the government and turn our Republic into some sort of nanny state for a long time.There have been RINO’s who were socially conservative who have helped them in this endeavor (some knowingly, some unknowingly). In my ignorance, I have voted for such people in the past. No more.
    I think we need to start thinking of these issues in terms of triage in an ER. For example, is the guy who walks into an ER with two broken arms any less important than a man who has experience a laceration to a major artery? Of course not. But one may initially receive more attention because he is facing imminent death from his injuries.
    Right now we are on a path of decline due to a massive shift away from what our Founding Fathers intended. We need to focus more attention right now on the issues of fiscal responsibility, limited government, and cleaning out the corruption in Washington. This does not mean that we ignore the social issues or pretend that we are not somehow socially conservative. I am pro-life and do not support gay marriage and I am unapologetic in my beliefs. But we must stop the bleeding first. I believe if we do, we will win the battle on social issues as well.

    • jdw4america

      The priority must be cutting anything and everything that gives the feds the power to strangle our economy, stifle our growth, destroy our jobs and deny our liberties. Dump the “czars,” they’re unconstitutional. Deregulate ridiculous and unnecessary burdens on business owners. Lower taxes so that the people aren’t working for what the government lets them keep – that’s share cropping. Eliminate redundancy at the federal level – start with the dept of re-education. Cut deep – that’s how surgeons remove tumors.

    • chamberD

      . . . the Left to define us? Why must we behave in a way that says we are going to tailor our message so as to escape the vicious attacks from pro-abortion, pro-homosexual-marriage leftist candidates and media?

      Why do WE have to pull our heads into the shell on matters that are critical to the health and well-being of America’s families? Why do we have to let THEM define the debate?

      Aren’t we saying, in effect, that their ideas, their philosophy of life, is better than ours? What are we afraid of? Maybe many of us don’t really know who we are, can’t really articulate why promoting stable families is healthy for society? don’t really understand that the entitlement disease crippling our economy is a direct consequence of moral decline, and that abortion-on-demand and homosexual marriage are merely symptoms of a deeper decay — and that they all contribute to our growing insolvency?

      Look, the governemnt has a vested interest in making serfs of us, in making us dependent on it for EVERYTHING. But no intact, stable family, holding to traditional values is going to let them do it — it is beneath our honor and our dignity to contract with our government to steal from our neighbor to funnel that money back to us for our benefit. So how many stable families are there still remaining to fight against the great Leviathan? after 60 years of the war on poverty, after 37 years of abortion-on-demand, and now with the specter of splintering the institution of the family further with the introduction — forced on a people who do not want it — of homosexual marriage?

      Wake up, people. You are being had.. You had better start learning how to articulate the TRUTH or we are doomed. Remember, your best defense is a good offence. Make the miscreants squirm! Show them to the world for the destroyers they are. And if you have any doubts on that score, then leave the fighting to those who don’t!

      • runner12

        and I think you would find that we would agree on most, if not all social issues. Maybe I did not articulate myself very well (it has been a long day).
        I guess my viewpoints stem from my own political journey. I used to just look at potential candidates based on their positions on the social issues of abortion, gay marriage, and other hot button social issues. I was not good at looking at where they stood on the equally important values of honesty, integrity, fiscal responsibility, individual freedom, and the belief in the limited role of government.
        I was very good at articulating what I was against, but not what I was for. I have sinced raised my standards for political candidates, not lowered them. I expect them to be both morally and fiscally conservative. The reason being is that I have not seen a political candidate who is socially liberal and a true conservative-libertarian when it comes to the role of govenment in these areas.
        I agree that we must fight the Left when they try to cram their socially liberal views down our throats via the government, but we cannot in turn use the government to make people agree with us either. We must create an environment in which people have freedom to choose which way their local communities will turn on these issues. It is at that point when we can do our best as fellow citizens to influence them to make better choices.

        • chamberD

          ” . . . [W]e cannot in turn use the government to make people agree with us.”

          Or, as some would say, we cannot impose our values on others. This is a red herring. Our entire government apparatus is an imposition of one view over another in every one of its multi-thousand pages of regulations.

          Take the speed limit, for example. Freedom dictates that I can do what I want; the law states that I cannot, for reasons of safety. Freedom (and agreeing with the law) gives way to prudence and caution, and the state enforcement agency is ever alert to infractions.

          I don’t have to “agree” with the law to be made to obey it. We the people decide which laws, through our elected reps, should be enacted and obeyed, whether some people agree with us or not. The question for conservatives in our democracy is how well will we — as voters — define our vision of the world and bring others along with us to implement it.

          For I can tell you with a certainty that the OTHER SIDE is active and relentless in seeing to it that it is their narrative, their agenda, that they most certainly will use our government’s power to impose on the rest of us — whether we agree with it or not: and Obamacare is a notable case in point.

          Your position, as I quoted above, is an automatic yes to the other side, since it reflects a lack of certitude about the rightness of your own cause.

  • runner12

    (not a democracy for the record) and not a dictatorship. You cannot run roughshod over the Constitution and not have it bite you in the rear end when the bad people are in power. We must be people of principle and stand by the Constitution and our Bill of Rights. Fighting for these two things in their purest form will completely turn back the the agenda of the Left.
    You see, they do not follow the Constitution. They could care less about the Bill of Rights. They have been running over it and twisting it to fit their agenda for years. Imitating their behavior will actually only further it. We must rise above that and fight with all we have to restore this country.
    I am quite confident of the rightness of my cause, but I also know that I cannot force people to agree with me. Force is the key word here. I can encourage, inform, fight for, and lead people to theTruth. But at the end of the day, only God can change people’s hearts. That fact does not absolve me of my duty to fight for change, it just forces me to rely on the One whose power I need to be successful.
    No one who has read my comments on here could ever accuse me of being for surrender and/or compromise with the other side. Honestly, the fact that you think so makes me laugh a little to myself because it is so completely false.

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