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Stephen Breyer Takes a Stab at Originalism: Hilarity Ensues

I have read enough of his opinions to know that Stephen Breyer is not an idiot. However, despite any protestations to the contrary he might make, he undoubtedly is a partisan. And his partisanship leads him down paths that require him to engage in intellectual dishonesty, which serves to make him look like an idiot far more often than he shoud. For example:

Appearing on “Fox News Sunday,” Breyer said history stands with the dissenters in the court’s decision to overturn a Washington, D.C., handgun ban in the 2008 case “D.C. v. Heller.” 

Breyer wrote the dissent and was joined by Justices John Paul Stevens, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. He said historians would side with him in the case because they have concluded that Founding Father James Madison was more worried that the Constitution may not be ratified than he was about granting individuals the right to bear arms

Here we have a Supreme Court Justice appearing on television to spout some truly moronic tripe. Even if we grant Breyer’s characterization of the history with respect to Madison (and I gather that this is a subject of some debate), that does not at all lead to the conclusion that therefore, the founding fathers would have been fine with the DC gun ban at issue in Heller.  In fact, the number of logical leaps and bounds (over yawning chasms of total and utter nonsense) required to get from Point A to Point B in this circumstance are so numerous that only an idiot would make the attempt. Or, in this case, a partisan desperate to appear nonpartisan.

Nevertheless, the substance of Breyer’s arguments aside, I find Breyer’s sudden solicitousness for utilizing history in interpreting the constitution to be refreshing and hope that it will continue:

“If you’re interested in history, and in this one history was important, then I think you do have to pay attention to the story,” Breyer said. “If that was his motive historically, the dissenters were right. And I think more of the historians were with us.”

That being the case, and particularly since the Founding Fathers did not foresee how modern day would change individual behavior, government bodies can impose regulations on guns, Breyer concluded.

Alright, Steve, let’s make a deal. We’ll concede your point that the history should be dispositive on the issue of handguns and the Second Amendment, if you’ll concede the point that absolutely no one will seriously suggest that the founding fathers had abortion in mind when they wrote the Fourth Amendment. We’ll disarm our emanations and penumbras if you deep six yours. Deal?

Of course, I don’t think for a minute that Breyer is going to start taking constitutional history seriously as a universal proposition, or even that he really cares about the history surrounding the Second Amendment. The simple truth here is that there is no tool that a partisan hack will not summon to his side if his party requires it.

COMMENTS

  • bobmontgomery

    …….look at history to tell us how to rule? Ge,e why don’t we look at foreign law to help us make up our mind?. Gee, how are the judges in France deciding things these day?. What do the kids have to say about it? It seems the only two writings the whip smart justices don’t want to look at are the Bible and ,,,,,,,the Constitution.
    Breyer also says he will attend the State of the Union because it’s important for the kiddies to see the Judicial Branch as a co-equal part of government. Of course it is, which means that Sam Alito is under no compunction to sit there and allow that co-equal branch to be abused, insulted and slandered by Barack Obama.

  • http://wadebutler.com artman

    As Robert Bork says, originalists attempt to look at the constitution first and try to determine how the case measures up to the document and what was meant when it was written. Liberals, however, first look at what they would like the outcome to be and then search for some phrase in the constitution that would justify it. Thus liberal judges will find some way to use the constitution to justify furthering the liberal agenda.

    • edintexas

      artman wrote: “…then search for some phrase in the constitution that would justify it.”

      While I don’t doubt that this occurs, finding a phrase in the Constitution to justify the result desired is hardly a necessity to the “Progressives”. Anything, including a foreign country’s court rulings, “penumbras” and “emanations” will do.

      • http://www.kennedyroelaw.com capmotion

        The so-called conservatives are not above ends-oriented jurisprudence; that is exactly what Bush v. Gore was, a far more activist and purposeful [and unsupportable!] opinion than many of the “liberal” justices’ opinion. The only real conservative, if what is meant by that is faithful originalist, is Thomas, and even he falters sometimes and slinks into ends-orientedness.

        • ohiohistorian

          from using judicial activism to redefine how votes were counted. They also did it for Equal Protection under the law, something that lieberals claim to want but only when it benefits their issues.

          As a good part of this article says, learn history before you make a fool of yourself saying stuff that was not there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore

  • throwback59

    that since the Founders couldn’t foresee the internet, TV, air travel, ect, the Constitution was whatever the justices said it was.

    • bobmontgomery

      …….the steam engine, Western Union, probably scores of other things that came along in the nineteenth century. The value of the document was not negated by those advancements and it isn’t diminished by today’s world. The advent of the electronic vote sped up the process, but it didn’t change the fact that 218 votes are needed to pass a bill. Breyer, and many more of his ilk, are not inconsequential, but their debating skills whither when a light is shone on them, as you good folks are doing here today.

      • throwback59

        Very well said, sir

  • http://UnitedConservativesofVirginia Cargosquid

    Or, for that matter, powers of the Constitution? How about changing the Supreme Court? I don’t think Madison foresaw having idiots like Breyer on the Bench…..

  • http://www.redstate.com/etcartman Kenny Solomon

    Watch……

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWxRnK751MM

    Lemme tell ya sumptin’. If these Lefti……… Naaaaaah, I’d better not.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    (BTW, you have a typo, first para “shoud”)

    History runs the dissenters over with a MAC Truck.

    One only simply has to read Madison’s notes on the Constitutional Convention to know his view on the subject. He was a supporter of the militias and the right to bear arms as a counterbalance against large standing armies. Furthermore to supplement the armies of our republic in times of distress.

    To Breyers’ rant that Madison would have supported a ban on handguns, registration process designed to effectively accomplish that ban or restrictions on keeping a loaded handguns on your personnel premises……Ha….ha….haha….bwahahahahahaha!

  • edintexas

    It is something of an article of faith that the Bill of Rights was promised in order to obtain the ratification of the Constitution. Assuming that is so, it is something of a minor miracle that politicians of that day actually kept their promises. The Bill of Rights was introduced, passed Congress and was ratified by the necessary number of states after ratification of the Constitution.

    All of that becomes nonsense when Breyer looks at it. Apparently he believes that because some of the states had a problem with handing over some of their power to the soon to be established Federal government, the Bill of Rights is nothing more than a sop to those concerns and is akin to lobbyist’s cash or “earmarks” and certainly not anything to be considered when discerning what the Constitution means.

    Rather than offer to give up the 2d Amendment, let’s offer to get rid of the income tax in exchange for the Progressives giving up the penumbras and emanations on which Doe is founded.

    • dmccracken

      The point that was first advanced by convention delegates were that it was not necessary to list rights in the constitution as all rights not conveyed to the government stayed with the states and the people.

      Today, we should be grateful to those with the foresight to demand that these rights be listed as our government has far exceeded the limits of the enumerated powers in Article 1.

  • Tbone

    Don’t agree? Then you go to your local golf club or retirement community and gather up 12, 74 year old people ask them some tough questions and tell me how much reasoning ability they have.

    Same with Congress. 70 and out at the latest.

    • izoneguy

      My Dad just read your post – he is P.O. ed – he turns 74 in Feb. 2011
      He reads RedState everyday. Don’t get him started…..

      • Tbone

        bus driver, stock broker or classroom of them trying to learn iPhones.

        • izoneguy

          What does that have to do with anything?

          My Dad worked until he was 71 – the company wanted him to stay -
          he wrote technical manuals for IP switching equipment, but my Dad had had enough. He left when the company became flooded with gays & lesibans. The company HQ is based in silicon valley and that is how they rolled.

          I am 51 and my kids act like I don’t know how to do anything in regards to the net or computers….
          That is what I do all day. Perceptons are funny things.

          • Tbone

            “but my Dad had had enough.” as had mine after that season.

            That’s the point. As people get older, they are less interested in what other people think, only what they already “know”. Not a good trait in a politician or a judge.

        • Bill S

          He runs 3 different laptops and still writes FORTRAN code to do numeric analysis. He was recruited at age 70 to do Y2K remediation.

          Knock off the ageism.

          • Tbone

            There are exceptions, but why do we tend to feel that every 70+ Senator, Congressperson and Scoti are exceptions? They are not.

    • maddog

      Ages listed below. Ginsburg is the oldest at 77. If we can beat Obama in 2012, there is a good chance we can take that seat. Kennedy has indicated he will wait to be replaced by a Republican. That alone may finally doom Roe v. Wade. The Obma appointments did not alter the ideological make up, but it did serve as a a liberal line change to use a hockey metaphore. Justice Souter and Cheif Justice Warren have to be the two worst picks Republican presidents have made.

      Ginsburg, Ruth Bader
      March 15, 1933 (age 77)

      Scalia, Antonin
      March 11, 1936 (age 74)

      Kennedy, Anthony
      July 23, 1936 (age 74)

      Breyer, Stephen
      August 15, 1938 (age 72)

      Thomas, Clarence
      June 23, 1948 (age 62)

      Alito, Samuel
      April 1, 1950 (age 60)

      Sotomayor, Sonia
      June 25, 1954 (age 56)

      Roberts, John (Chief Justice)
      January 27, 1955 (age 55)

      Kagan, Elena
      April 28, 1960 (age 50)

    • http://www.laborunionreport.com LaborUnionReport

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_Senators_by_age

      • Tbone
    • skorrent1

      the reasoning ability of Sotomayor and Kagan, but not Scalia? Bryer and Ginsberg probably thought (?) the same way at age 20. They just never grew up!

      • dmccracken

        I would not say that their reasoning ability was necessarily the issue, but I don’t know many people in the 70′s and up who would be interested in giving the time of day to anything that challenged their closely held beliefs, and so I do not think it generally beneficial to have a court and a senate populated with such.

        That being said, this problem is not unique to old age, nor would I put Justice Scalia out to pasture. But how much of that sentiment is due to his closely held beliefs being in a measure of agreement with my own?

        Let’s just hope they all stay until there is a Conservative in the White House, and then let the 70+ crowd retire.

  • caboose

    of liberal leftist, socialist Judges, that is destroying our Country with political, rather than constitutional decisions. As Robert Bork said in his “Slouching Toward Gomorrah,” if we are to bring the judicial branch in line with the US Constitution, we need to establish a “Judicial Review” of all decisions by the SCOTUS, and all Inferior courts. It should encompass laws passed and codified into law, by the President and Congress. This may take an amendment to the US Constitution or the serveral States, refusal to accept decisions without absolute proof that it is clearly authorized by the constitution. The second amendmendment is clear, that the peoples rights to bear arms cannot be denied.

    • bobmontgomery

      ……we understand there are 864 federal judges. Perhaps the judicial Review referred to is needed, but we do not need 864 federal judges. That number itself is an indication of the federalism problem. There are only 535 elected representatives of the people.

  • johnt

    Obviously there were sufficient numbers of the Founders, and those behind the Bill of Rights, who disagreed with Madison, assuming that this was his position.
    This is a legal mind ???

  • Superheater

    He said historians would side with him in the case because they have concluded that Founding Father James Madison was more worried that the Constitution may not be ratified than he was about granting individuals the right to bear arms.

    Putting aside the utter impossibility of determining the state of mind of Mr. Madison-this is ridiculous.

    Even if we stipulate that Breyer

    • fedsocdan

      I’m going to pretend Breyer’s Madison statement was a level…if not for the sole purpose of preventing my head from exploding.

      MADISON WRITES IN HIS OWN PERSONAL NOTES THAT HE’S FUNDAMENTALLY OPPOSED TO THE SLIGHTEST INFRINGEMENT OF ONE’S RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS!!!

      Gosh, even Lindsey Graham’s husband would admit as much.

      Btw, love the Star Trek line!

      • uselogic

        “Gosh, even Lindsey Graham

        • fedsocdan
    • bobmontgomery

      It is one thing for a bunch of political hacks to muse and surmise, or for academics to politely debate. It is quite another for a sitting Justice of the United States Supreme Court to dismiss the founding document. What is further galling, is for him to then go on and talk about how magnificent the court is and how it needs to be represented at the State of the Union. Yes, it is magnificent, but there is nothing in the Constitution about the State of the Union address needing Supreme Court Justices blithely sitting there taking whatever the President dishes out.

    • Menlo

      Graham was not in the Senate then, but I do understand the point you are making. I think Breyer’s vote was nearly unanimous. It likely would not be today, so there has been a small amount of progress.

      Looking back, I suppose one might reasonably debate whether Breyer was a step up from his predecessor.

      • Superheater

        I don’t blame Graham for Breyer, but he giggled through Kagan’s confirmation like that was the first time a woman flirted with him and then ignored her lack of qualifications with that “not the choice I’d have made” comment.

        He’s now my poster child for this peculiar RINO affliction.

    • givemefreedom

      Our nations voters, at least those who have the intellectual capacity, have to include a presidential candidates possible supreme court choices before voting. That takes studying more than a candidate’s advertisements.

    • myron_j_poltroonian

      I hate to be a purveyor of the obvious, and yes, this would be funny if he was not a supreme court justice, but: “He said historians would side with him in the case because they have concluded that Founding Father James Madison was more worried that the Constitution may not be ratified than he was about granting individuals the right to bear arms.” The conclusions he and his bevy of legal seers draw ignore the obvious: the Bill of Rights was passed because that is what the people wanted for their country. The second amendment in particular was there to prevent the government from overstepping their authority and running roughshod over the freedoms of “We, the People”.

  • Scope

    The originalist (scalia, alito, roberts and thomas)approach to changes in the Constitution believe those changes should occur via a Constitutional Amendment. Bryer apparently believes that changes should occur via new and subjective interpretations by sitting judges and justices. He voted in favor, twice I believe, to uphold gun bans. He voted for allowing a religious display in Texas, but voted against one in Kentucky. He believes that the justices need to decide based on changing times, and to adapt to those changes, hence his comment yesterday about airplanes, TV and the Internet.

    With his views that the citizen should have a more active voice in SC legal decisions, let’s hold him to account for that view when the Individual Mandate in Ocare comes before him. The polls are in our favor.

    • Scope

      he said to Wallace- Do you like to hunt, do you like to shoot a pistol at a target, then get on the subway and go to Maryland. In other words, if you don’t like it-leave.

      • myron_j_poltroonian

        Isn’t it illegal in those jurisdictions to take firearms on public conveyances?

  • johnt

    Does Breyer agree. If one chooses an authority to hide behind, one must be careful where it takes him.

    • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

      You’d have to *Hate* The 1st Amendment like Brezelious Windrip to favor the “Fairness Doctrine.”

  • Menlo

    I could be mistaken, but was Madison not skeptical of giving the court a judicial review power in the first place?

    However, that would require Breyer to make a case against his own power and prestige.

    • skorrent1

      He darn sure was against it after Marbury.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        rulings only to the specific case which was untenable. The main problems with to necessary right of judicial review has been those that obviously twist words to re-write the document and the timidity of Congress and Presidents to de facto cede final authority to courts.

        Bork suggests that an occasional Andrew Jackson moment every 20 years would rein in the courts.

  • bentboyscout

    The post “Stephen Breyer Takes a Stab at Originalism”, as well as most of the comments in response to it, are missing the point. Breyer was not attempting to sound like an Originalist. He was merely pointing out the absurdity that the Justices who are the proponents of “original intent” are the very ones who ignored what, historians say, was the original intent of Madison. And if Robert Bork says that ‘originalists. attempt to determine ……………… what was meant when it was written’, far be it from any one other than the annointed few to even attempt the same thing.

    But event that point is not the one I wish to make. Seems most of us are able to believe what we want, even if the facts DO get in the way. And it ain’t just Dems, or liberals, or Rep., or conservatives, or Tea Partiers, et.c ad nauseum. It is a human thing that must be vigilantly guarded against if we are to be honest in our opinions and beliefs.

    As for the comments about being too old to be responsible for anything very important, it seems to have been roundly disputed, and properly so. I seem to remember a conservative icon named Ronald Regan who was Elected at 69, and re-elected at 73. Oh yea, the writer of that comment made 74 the cutoff age. Respecfully, I would ask, “What about Alzheimer’s ?”

    • cwilson

      You must be talking about those historians who never read Madison’s Federalist 46 (like Breyer, himself, I guess):

      Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.

      More here.

    • streiff

      1. Cleary Breyer isn’t poking fun at anyone. He’s serious.

      2. No Originalist looks at what may or may not have been in the mind of an individual IRT the Constitution. The idea is to weigh the debates and speeches around ratification as evidence of how provisions were understood at the time.

      3. Madison was opposed to the Bill of Rights so his views on any of the first ten amendments is probably less valuable than that of virtually any of his contemporaries. The same argument Breyer makes about the Second applies equally to any of the other nine making Breyer’s position about as intellectually corrupt as is possible and not wear a clown hat.

      4. Many occupations have ages beyond which you may not serve. Reagan, unlike Breyer, had to face the daily scrutiny of the press and, twice, the electorate. I don’t think an age limit on federal judges is an outrageous idea. Clearly Stevens and Marshall (T not J) serve way beyond their shelf life.

  • romeg

    encapsulates his “reverence” [read Disdain] for individual liberty in the context of Original Intent was when he posed the rhetorical question “Do you enjoy sport shooting with handguns? Then go to Maryland.”

    He might just as well have added “…or to Hell.”

    Furthermore, Madison, unlike Breyer and other liberals, placed NO limitation on WHAT arms might be kept and borne by “The People”. Breyer attempts to take the sentence fragment or “Preamble” to the 2nd Amendment “A well regulated militia being necessary to a free state…” to mean that the militia were, somehow, separate and apart from “The People”. In Madison’s view as well as the overwhelming majority of the Founders, they were one and the same.

  • boxedquad

    The many comments on Age and reverence for other authors is very nice to see.

    As an OLD 77er I read and sometimes comment on the Red State bloggers and subject matter.

    Keep the Rino’s out of government, if they are really conservative they would not be labeled as such. Perhaps they should be labeled on the ballot..R/sometimes. and sometimes not

    • myron_j_poltroonian

      Good idea: “He said historians would side with him in the case because they have concluded that Founding Father James Madison was more worried that the Constitution may not be ratified than he was about granting individuals the right to bear arms.” How about RINO’s labeled as R? – and Conservatives as ?

  • blackhawk

    With Obama’s choice of the two appointments to the Supreme Court ;We will be made to suffer thru decades of nonsence. ,lack of ethics and progressive idioligy.
    Politics is a dirty game with the people doing the suffering.

  • raphaelhythloday

    So let me get this straight. Madison didn’t really care about the people having guns. He just inserted the second amendment because it’s what the people wanted in their Constitution, so it should be ignored.

    Do I have that argument correct?

  • mikeprice

    I saw this interview Sunday morning, and Breyer’s mannerisms and pontificating statements bordered on bizarre.

    It reminded me of a “benevolent king” – someone with total power, yet acting restrained and thoughtful, right before he takes away your self-defense so that another branch of government takes away the rest of your liberties.

    Madison would have wanted it that way. How does King Breyer know this? What is so freaking complicated about “the right to bear arms”?

    Another thing – the stupid “where does it end” quote – (with tanks, machine guns, rocket launchers, etc) – the only weapons they had back then were for personal use – rifles and handguns – we aren’t trying to win rights for tanks and rocket launchers – what a straw man argument from an idiot on the bench.

  • http://opinerlog.blogspot.com jdelaney3

    Perspicacious Thomas Jefferson warned us and his contemporaries about an overreaching federal judiciary. SCOTUS has manifestly devolved into an unelected, unaccountable super legislature. That must be repaired. Over the years, case law has so obliterated the original intent and meaning of our framers’ ageless wisdom that only an Article V Constitutional Convention stands any reasonable chance of restoring constitutional order. Top priorities of the convention: 1) repeal the 17th Amendment to restore State authority and influence on judicial appointments, and 2) devise a sensible mechanism to check the federal court system, an unaccountable system whose role has shifted from that constitutional supremacy to judicial supremacy. That’s simply NOT what the framers intended. It’s time to reign in these elites. Breyer provides perfect justification for an Article V Convention. We ignore the obvious at our Republic’s peril.

    • myron_j_poltroonian

      The “Progressives” would love to eliminate the Second Amendment via a constitutional convention. Just whom to you think the populous states would send to this sort of thing? Conservatives? Pious plea’s for “Democracy”, “One ‘Person’, one vote”, “Equal representation”, et cetera, ad nauseam by the “Pox (on the) Populi” would stack the deck against freedom from tyranny.

  • gunslingr45

    wise Thomas Jefferson said it best:

    “The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”

    The sad part truth of this statement is that we are not far from that day given our present course and leaders in goverment now.

  • dbleach

    Madison himself wrote in Federalist No. 46,

  • miroco

    It is on the rare side I so thoroughly disagree with our erudite posters. Breyer is an IDIOT— perhaps we merely question what is IS. To be on the left is prima facie evidence of brain damage, I maintain the lefts pretense at being intellectual is idiocy in and of itself. To defend hundreds of stances that have never worked is idiocy. That arrogant stumbling loon with his supercilious grin even got chewed up by Chris Wallace ofr Lord sake.

  • ontap

    Associate Justice Breyer was quite annoyed at Chris Wallace