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Wallis’ Progressive Call to Arms Misses [the] Mark

Promoted from the diaries by Bill S.

Jim Wallis, the longtime leader of Sojourners, a Washington D.C. based ministry dedicated to articulating “the biblical call to social justice,” used the opportunity in a February 24, 2011 column, “This is Not Fiscal Conservatism. It’s Just Politics,” to take an errant shot at recent Congressional Republican budget proposals and Wisconsin governor, Scott Walker.  Reverend Wallis, as you may recall, was a religious adviser to Candidate Obama in 2008 and, over the decades, has never been shy to level sharply worded and religiously-steeped criticism at any federal or state legislative effort which he believes challenges his claimed core constituency, the poor, or his allies in the call for ’social justice.’

Criticizing Wallis, in turn, is not easy – not because he’s never wrong, but because challenging him immediately draws familiar and convenient retorts that the critic isn’t reflecting Christ’s values, or worse yet, simply doesn’t care about the poor.  Conservative commentator, Glenn Beck, found himself at the end of such Wallis’ barbs early last year.

In February and March, 2010,  Wallis and Beck went toe to toe for weeks – Beck urging Christians to run from churches that preached Wallis’ notion of ‘social justice,’ as reminscent of communism’s call for redistribution of wealth and loss of personal liberty, and Wallis, for his part, responded in kind, urging that Christians should stop watching Beck altogether.  Frankly, neither the charge, nor counter-charge, nor the particular methods of delivery were particularly worthy of Christ or Christian adherence.  Admittedly, Beck did succeed in piercing Wallis’ shield of impenetrability, which for decades has been cloaked in his increasingly implausible claim that his adherence to ”God’s Politics” elevates him above the political fray, as neither a Republican, nor Democrat, and neither conservative, nor liberal.  This claim, as Beck accurately pointed out, is simply not true.

Where Beck failed, however, was in his pitbull insistence that Wallis’ use of ’social justice’ was an interchangeable code word for Wallis’ true call for ‘communism.’ Wallis is not a communist; yet, you can not easily dismiss the troubling nature of Wallis’ refusal to level any serious and sustained criticism of contemporary liberal philosophy and proposals.

Reverend Wallis has made a name for himself arguing for progressive politics, insisting that such progressivism meets broader Christian objectives.  Conversely, he, further, enjoys his status as an oft-cited mouthpiece of the liberal left’s criticism of conservative proposals, which challenge the liberal status quo – almost irrespective of whether such conservative proposals may, in fact, or could benefit the same constituency that Wallis’ claims as his own.

A telling example of Wallis’ penchant for presumptively criticizing American conservatism is found in his analysis of President Bush’s 2005 proposal on social security reform.  To recap, President Bush proposed the following in relation to social security reform: 1) there would be no change for current retirees and those near retirement; 2) no increase in payroll taxes; and, 3) Discretionary personal retirement accounts.  It was this third item which liberals claimed was Bush’s effort to ‘privatize’ social security, with a minimal 2% of payroll tax being diverted to fund these, again, discretionary accounts.

In an open letter to Congress, written in early 2005, criticizing the Bush proposal, Wallis writes:

“. . . Privatizing Social Security threatens to dismantle our nation’s commitment and breach a covenant held between child and parent, worker and retiree, employed and unemployed, able and disabled.  Casting it aside disrespects the biblical covenant.  Social Security offers a guarantee of security for the elderly and many others that the stock market can never provide.  President Bush’s plan to privatize Social Security would take a significant portion out of the Social Security benefits that so many Americans depend upon and divert it for private investment in the stock market.  Turning what was a public promise into a private gamble could create a serious breach in the covenant between generations and raises deep questions about the moral priorities of our society.  Social Security privatization could easily ‘rob’ mother and father.  Our faith requires that we consider carefully privatization would hurt children, women, and people with disabilities.”

Lost amidst the vitriole of Wallis’ response and the response of many others on the left was the fact that Bush’s proposal was directed at addressing a funding shortfall, which if unaddressed would ultimately bankrupt the system – rhetorically, one might have asked Wallis whether the dissolution of the social security system altogether was a greater breach of our covenant with America’s seniors than a prospective reduction in benefits for today’s younger workers 40 years hence.  Somehow, Wallis seemed to ignore this salient point.

Further, President Bush attempted to provide a means by which the disparity in benefits to African Americans, resulting from shorter life expectancy, could be ameliorated by an ability to grow certain discretionary funds at rates faster than typical government returns.  This point was lost on Wallis, as well.

Less than ten months later after the Bush proposal was announced, the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, where Wallis has been a part-time instructor and not exactly a bastion of conservative thought, released its own commissioned ‘non-partisan’ report outlining necessary social security reforms.  The report highlighted the four following requisites: 1) a gradual reduction in future benefits; 2)  an increase in the payroll tax cap;  3) an increase in the retirement age; and, 4) mandatory personal retirement accounts.

This non-partisan panel of social security experts contemplated that a minimum of 3% of payroll tax (1.5% from the employee and 1.5% from the employer) would be diverted to fund these mandatory personal retirement accounts.  By comparison with the Bush proposal, the well-publicized Harvard proposal was downright draconian – yet, the liberal left was silent and so was Jim Wallis.  It seems that the source of the proposal and who was in the pulpit to make it so played a larger actual part in Wallis’ criticism of the proposal, than the content of the proposal itself.

Getting back to Wallis’ battle with Beck – contrary to Beck’s assertion, Wallis’ problem isn’t that he’s a ‘communist’ or ‘marxist.’  (Indeed, Beck’s criticism on this point is curious.  Marxists argue, in part, that governmental action, rather than and as opposed to religious benevolence, is required because political power of the proletariat is derived from the the secular and sterile redistribution of capital.  Marxists don’t depend on God or Biblical instruction to define morality and the social good, in fact, they run from such notions; ‘religion is the opiate of the masses,’ remember?  Wallis, conversely, embraces faith as the defining principle of public life; see Wallis’ 1981 book, The Call to Conversion: Why Faith is Always Personal But Never Private.)  Beck’s effort to so assign Wallis was regrettably simplistic and glosses over the ironic danger that Wallis’ leadership of the progressive left poses to American political thought.

The problem with Wallis’ brand of progressive leadership is two-fold.  First, he maintains that Biblically-based morality standards can and should serve as guideposts for all prospective government action.  Government and faith are inexorably linked in Wallis’ progressive model.  As his criticism of current Republican budget proposals and Governor Walker demonstrates, government action is judged by its adherence to Biblically-based notions of ‘social justice’ and is invariably subject to criticism if it doesn’t meet certain faith and morality objectives.

The belief that government and faith not only can but must be linked, enabling each to provide reciprocal measure of the other, is completely specious.  There is no . . . no part of the New Testament, which speaks to the role of government in carrying forward Christ’s message of redemption.  In fact, the Bible is replete with exactly the opposite message.

As a Christian man, I do not pledge or surrender my faith to the government.  Mark 12:17 states:

“Then Jesus said to them, ‘Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.’ And they were amazed at him.”

Neither do I expect that government work can provide me, as a Christian, that redemption which is promised through my acceptance of Christ as my Lord and Savior.  Government programs caring for the poor are not the cause of Christ, nor the acts of Christians.  Rather, Christians caring for the poor is the cause of Christ.

Wallis, undoubtedly would cite his support conservative Alabama Governor Bob Riley, who proposed a massive tax hike against wealthy Alabamans as a way to carry forward his Christian mission of caring for the poor, as evidence of both his support for conservatives and of government carrying forward Christ’s mission.  But Wallis and Riley are both wrong and to suggest that a state tax hike on wealthy Americans is somehow carrying out a faith-based obligation is a perversion of Christian responsibility.

At the moment of Final Judgment, described in Matthew 25:40, Christ tells us:

“And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’”

Was Christ speaking to King Herod?  Or to his followers?  Did Christ say that his brothers’ actions would be judged by what King Herod did to benefit the poor?

Redemption through Christ is a private affair, a reflection of individual acceptance of Christ and Christ’s mission.  If Wallis wants Christians to care about the poor, he ought to be evangelizing to spread the Gospel to those who do not yet believe and, then, calling and leading the converted to demonstrate Christ’s love in their everyday lives.

Government, as a secular entity, has no place carrying forward or establishing Christ’s mission.  Individuals do.  Christians do.

This statement may cause Christian conservatives to pause.  It shouldn’t.  Clearly, this democracy was founded on Judao-Christian ethics and principles of self-determination and unalienable rights, including the belief that the pursuit of liberty and equality was a divinely protected human cause.  And, I am not calling for Christian politicians to disavow their faith.  But, here’s the point – contrary to what Wallis would implicity (if not explicitly) argue, nowhere did our Founding Fathers declare that our government should be directed and/or judged by and in accordance with the tenets of a distinct religious faith.

The other area for growing concern over Wallis’ progressive politics is that it is rooted far more in the political left than he is willing to acknowledge.  He claims to be above the fray.  He isn’t.  And, while Wallis isn’t a communist or a Marxist, he is a liberal.

Wallis has mastered the ability to play to his audiences.  Far more often than not, when speaking to the more conservative religious community in person or through his many books, Wallis’ social activist rhetoric is decidely more muted.  By example, Wallis speaks, as he writes, to a quiet alliance with the pro-life movement.  But that’s where it ends.  He does not pound-the-table in support of conservative principles in any way like he permits himself to do when being regularly called on by the Olbermanns of the world to lambaste conservatives and Republicans.  Make no mistake, you will no more see Wallis’ extolling his appearance at a pro-life rally on MSNBC than you will see him walk through the halls of CPAC.

Years ago, I had the chance to meet Wallis, while serving with him on a three person panel discussing the role of faith in partisan politics.  Two things that I recall as I left the forum were: 1) I liked Jim Wallis.  I was and am attracted to his evangelistic Christianity.  Wallis comes by his evangelistic roots naturally; as an Episcopalian by birth, I do not.  Yet, I found solace in and was attracted to his passion for Christ; and, 2) I was skeptical about whether Jim Wallis was really as disconnected from liberal politics as he claimed.  Sure, there are issues in which he found and finds sanctuary with conservatives – he tends to be pro-life, by example.  But, I didn’t sense that night and don’t sense now that Jim Wallis truly accepts that people can be dedicated and consistent conservatives and passionate Christians, simultaneously.  And, this is what is dangerous and most troubling about his faith-based progressivism.

As much as Wallis has criticized some well-known conservative Christians in the past for their claims that God has inspired certain personal action and political positions, basically, he claims the exact same thing.  He simply uses the Bible to construct his political positions.  Yet, his intolerance for those who adopt political positions which don’t comport with his theocratic view leads him, by process of context and elimination, to dismiss others and label their actions as un-Christian.  This rhetoric damages both the political dialogue which must take place to develop effective public policy and the cause of faith, itself.

As to standard budgetary matters, certainly, Wallis speaks to the moral imperative of avoiding debt.  However, he suggests little to nothing practically speaking regarding how to do that – instead, his focus relies upon the standard liberal diatribe regarding the need to challenge corporate excess and greed and that conservative budget proposals do nothing but balance the books on the backs of the poor and underserved.

On the issue of current federal and state budgets, his summary criticism of congressional Republicans and Governor Walker borders on the ridiculous.  By example,

“. . . Governor Walker’s proposed bill is really more about his ideological commitments and conservative politics — which favor business over labor — than about his concern for Wisconsin’s financial health.”

The statement is patently false and offensive.  Whether Jim Wallis wants to acknowledge it or not, Wisconsin’s state budget is billions of dollars in the red.  That’s a fact.  It is the governor’s job – in fact, the governor’s statutory responsiblity – to balance the state budget.  But rather than focus on the need for shared sacrifice, Wallis takes the opportunity to paste Governor Walker as just another disingenuous politician, because he happens to be a conservative.  It is no more complicated than that.

How can Wallis expect to be a broker of reasonable and effective public policy that incorporates the best ideas of both political parties if he can so easily deride the efforts of Wisconsin’s governor, while offering nothing of substance to advance the debate?  America’s financial situation demands far more from those that want to participate in our political process.  The time for silliness must end and the time for Wallis to demonstrate his credentials as truly being above the political fray is long since past.  If Jim Wallis fails to recognize that toxic debt will destroy this country and its government, he should be prepared to accept that the government upon which he calls to meet the cause of ‘social justice’ will no longer exist.

Jim Wallis has a choice to make – keep being a mouthpiece for the progressive left which is doing much too little to solve today’s budgetary problems, while throwing up his hands and saying, ‘who me?’; or, dropping his caustic rhetoric and demand that all Americans, including his friends in unions and on the liberal left, share in the sacrifice which will save our Union and preserve the American dream.  Only then will my skepticism subside over Reverend Wallis’ claim that he speaks only for ‘God’s Politics.’  As a Christian man and a conservative who loves this country, I welcome that day.

COMMENTS

  • Bill S

    I am NOT a Wallis fan, at all. Beck pretty much had it right – Wallis’ version of “social justice” IS synonymous with communism. However, he probably should have just stuck with what I have said about Wallis: he uses his interpretation of Christianity as a way to leverage his liberal political positions.

    I’m sure he’s a nice person. Lots of liberals are. But his beliefs are dangerous.

    • Lords86

      And being a communist, however.

      As a post below notes, elements of communist doctrine did co-opt (and, in my mind, twist) some biblical teachings, but where Wallis differs from a ‘communist’ is that the latter requires the public and pronounced disavowal of religion as a precept for government action. Wallis, in fact, demands it.

      This is where Beck was wrong.

    • Lords86

      Excuse my tardy thank you for your kind comment and the bump. Appreciate it very much.

    • mine

      And your evidence for this is what? Look, the reality is that Beck has nailed him right. You would think that after reading this article, that Wallis was just some misguided fool. He is far more sinister and dangerous than that. Let’s not understated the evil that lurks in some of these people.

      • Lords86

        I have never met a practicing communist, who is a true Christian. Nor a true Christian, whose a practicing communist.

        And, as someone who grew up in the People’s Republic, as Jay Nordlinger calls our hometown of Ann Arbor, and as someone who spent time in Moscow and Leningrad, while the USSR still was in existence, I’ve met my share of communists. Unlike Wallis, none of them ever quoted Scripture to me.

        Communists worship the state. Christians worship Christ. Wallis’ fallacy is not unlike many liberals, who carry the progressive torch. Wallis is not a secular progressive, who has abandoned religion; he’s a progressive, because of religion.

        And, while I disagree with Wallis on many, many fronts, having met him, spent time with him over a couple days, and discussed faith and politics with him at some length (albeit a while ago), I am quite convinced that his faith in Christ is real – axiomatically, not a communist.

        • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

          Those crazy Jeebus-Freaks expect you to die first before you get into heavan. The indignity!!

        • mine

          I am very surprised at your comments. I suggest you read Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals before you continue this discussion. They don’t have to be believers. They infiltrate. While I agree a communist can’t be a Christian or vice versa, they do not agree with us. I can’t tell you how concerned I am that you give the impression that Wallis just mislead. His comments go way past that. I am also very concerned that you also give the impression that Beck is mislead. I think he is on the mark with Wallis. I hope you don’t take offense at this but it just seems so naive as to how evil Wallis is.

          • Lords86

            I don’t believe that I gave the impression that Wallis is just misled, at all. I argued vigorously that Wallis’ use of government to advance Christianity was antithetical to an appropriate separation between church and state; and, more particularly, as to Christianity, that his use of Christianity to require governmental action was a perversion of faith.

            As for Beck, his quick, visceral “he’s a commie” labeling of Wallis masks Wallis’ true danger. It is the mixture of his version of Christian faith and politics that is problematic and most troublesome.

          • mine

            You say Beck’s mixture of his version of Christian faith and politics that is problematic and most troublesome. I gathered that this article was as much an veiled attack on Beck as on Wallis. Now that is what I find most troublesome…..

          • Lords86

            As a mixture of his version of Christian faith and politics.

            Sir, I would like to help you with your conspiracy theories here about how I am maligning Beck, but my words don’t say that. Please read it slowly, again. Very slowly.

  • Bill S

    RS members who might want to comment on this diary – this should not turn into a theological discussion…that’s not why RS is here.

    • cari

      we’re supposed to discuss a man who uses and misapplies the Bible to support his political agenda, and we’re not supposed to turn it into a theological discussion? Have you had your coffee yet this morning?

      • Bill S

        between discussing the relationship between political beliefs and theology and discussing theology for theology’s sake. Believe me, cari…I have been on RS long enough to see where these things can go. The discussions quickly degenerate into exchanges like whether amillenialism or pre/post mil are the truly Christian belief systems. THAT is the kind of theological discussion that is off limits.

        • cari

          I’m a seminary graduate. I got what I needed and rolled my eyes at most of the rest- a bunch of guys who wanted to argue over eschatological issues that no one could know if the first place.

    • Darin_H

      Since it’s the basis for Wallis’ political beliefs.

      I’ll say this though, politically speaking, when I look at Wallis I don’t see Christ. Enslave one to ‘help’ another isn’t Biblical.

      • cari

        When Paul spoke to Christians about how they were supposed to care for other Christians, he said,

        “Every one must make up his own mind as to how much he should give. Don’t force anyone to give more than he really wants to…” (2 Cor. 9:7)

        How can Wallis, then, using Scripture, support forced giving by way of the government in the name of Christian charity?

        • uselogic

          I believe it’s because Wallis values power, influence and control more than Christ’s teachings. Thosecraving filters his perception, allowing him to warp scripture to fit his will.

    • Doc Holliday

      I better read the diary, sometimes I overlook that :)

  • pastisprolog

    I?ll try to keep this un-theological, but it?s difficult, since arguing with Wallis supporters requires debate about his theological mistakes. Wallis?s claim, that the forced redistribution of wealth is Christian, is no more Christian than the forced conversion of pagans during the later stages of the Roman Empire, the Crusades or the Spanish and Portuguese explorations. ?Take wealth by force from the unwilling and give it to the poor,? isn?t Christian, but it is Marxist.

  • burgerkang

    Amen. I think the fundamental problem with the progressive Christians is that they are trying to create the perfect society, Heaven, on this Earth. They feel that somehow being a Christian means to try to get what is wrong with the world right here and now. They have lost sight of the promises of the eternal, that it is Triune God who is going to bring about judgement on the fallen world and create a new heaven and earth for those who are saved by the blood of Christ.

    “And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.”
    (1 John 2:17 ESV)

    Christians are to be charitable, but when the govt forces charity on us by taxation, it no longer becomes charity but basically theft.

    • rightwingmom52

      In my opinion, media preachers are much like politicians in that they fall often under the spell of power, popularity and money. The corruption begins when they begin to lay up for themselves treasures upon earth, rather than in heaven. “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” (Matt. 6:20

      We all know what liberals treasure, and it sure isn’t individual responsibility or freedom or America’s greatness, or anything that is good in this country.

    • Doc Holliday

      but I do get what you mean. The Catholic Church and black evangelical churches push a lot for social justice. The same can be said about all Evangelicals, Baptists, and others.

      But I have always left the “Heaven on Earth” sobriquet on the agnostic/atheist left. They are the ones that believe man (probably called woman in their parlance) is god. They believe man is the highest form and it is up to man to create heaven on this earth.

  • EagleWatcher

    Mr. Wallis

    “Apologist for communist atrocities in Cambodia and Vietnam ”

    “In 1979, Time magazine hailed Wallis as one of the “50 Faces for America’s Future.” That same year, the journal Mission Tracks published an interview with Wallis, in which the activist evangelical expressed his hope that “more Christians will come to view the world through Marxist eyes.” ”

    Hmmmm…. Does Marxist not equate with Communist or did I miss some nuance in your post?

    Source:
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1833

  • ssshannon1026

    about Wallis’ connection to Marxism, and Beck is entirely correct. The connection is this: One of the primary sources of resistence to the lure of communism in the US has been the Christian faith. The communists needed a means of getting at least some of that part of our society on their side. People such as Wallis are simply operatives in that process. Rather than fighting Christians, the effort has been to use their own faith to bring them into alignment with basic communist tenants. That has, in fact, been a very successful operation. Wallis is no Christian, he is a communist specifically trained in making communism sound Christian.

    • MikeG (Icythus)

      n/t

    • acat

      one of the key phrases in communism, “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need” has roots in the new testament… head over to http://www.biblegateway.com and look up the following:
      Matthew 25:15 Acts 2:45 Acts 4:32-35

      I’m deliberately pointing you offsite as this shouldn’t be, per Bill S who is one of the moderators, a theological discussion.

      Communism is, to this cat, a reflection of the early church – the communal church – in a fun-house mirror; it tries to look like an early-church environment, all goods held in common, all working for common cause, just without god.

      Mew

      • LibertarianHawk

        “Communism is, to this cat, a reflection of the early church”

        Yeah, except for that whole theology thing. The wholesale rejection of religious faith is just as part and parcel to Marxism as is the concept of communal property.

        Perhaps one of the best books ever written on this subject — and one worth reading and re-reading — is Whittaker Chambers’ autobiography “Witness”.

        He writes extensively and poignantly about the natural tension between communism and spirituality.

        • acat

          you’d find I said:

          “Communism is, to this cat, a reflection of the early church … just without god. ”
          — acat

          Now that we’ve removed the selective-quoting, you may continue with your argument.

          Mew

          • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

            acat is right. Many theologians have described communism as a Christian heresy. They try to mimic the Kingdom of Heaven through human means and by the exclusion of God. They want the ends but without the ways and means.

      • pastisprolog

        This was voluntary sharing. Use of force by government to accomplish a goal like that is un-Christian.

        • Lords86

          Christian acts are intended to be acts of the heart, a reflection of the love of and for Christ.

          Compulsory giving is taxation.

          And, there is a world of difference between Saul, the tax collector, and Paul, the Apostle.

          Well-stated, pastisprolog.

      • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

        Matthew 25:15 and the Parable of the Talents is not about “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” It is about how one invests the gifts of the Lord to bring about a return upon their investment. It has nothing to do with governmental redistribution of wealth.

        The actions in Acts 2:45 and 4:32-35 are all instances of voluntary charity. Neither Christ, nor the apostles, commanded the actions. Look at what Peter told Ananias in Acts 5:4. “While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control?” Please note that Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead because they lied not because they refused to give.

        • acat

          You know that it’s bogus, even I recognize it’s a false statement, but these do get cited as examples of “christian justification for communism”, which is my point.

          If you have run across another verse that gets abused in the pursuit of justifying communism you’d care to share, feel free.

          Mew

          • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

            I have been surprised by the ability of people to distort and manipulate Scripture to justify their points. Wallis is a good example of someone who plays upon emotion and then manipulates the Scripture.

            I just finished teaching on the passages in Acts 2 & 4. Those very points were raised by someone in the study. Let me just say that I beat that horse sufficiently.

      • ssshannon1026

        But as most christian have traditionally understood it is not the role of the state to provide such communal resources, and in America the dispersal of communal resources has been the provence of private religious charities. That put the church into direct competition with the progressive state in makeing people dependent. But rather than fighting against it directly, it has been far more effective to simply infiltrate the church and work from within using the very idealogy that already existed to share one’s wealth.

    • glorious

      You are right.

  • acat

    (and since I would have missed it if Bill S. hadn’t front-paged it, kudos to him as well…)

    As has been mentioned before, Beck is a relatively new convert, both to conservatism and to his religion – IIRC, he’s a Latter Day Saint.

    For Beck to go toe to toe with an established D.C. liberal tool* like Wallis and put any dents in the armor is impressive… and presents an opportunity for conservative religious thinkers to come up with what Beck couldn’t – the simple way to explain the fallacy. I see a few others (burgerkang, pastisprolog) are already moving in this direction.

    Many still won’t believe it – liberalism can be very emotion-over-fact – but removing this particular tool* from the liberal toolbox would be very helpful.

    Mew

    * a shield is a tool, as is a sword, and Wallis has been cited to both poke conservatives and defend liberals for quite a while … he’s a tool.

    • pastisprolog

      The limitation to avoid Christian apologetics and theological arguments to rebut Wallis prevents me from unleashing myself on this subject. This is a conservative political site, not a Christian website. And, there is an entire book of material that supplies the arguments against Wallis; The BIble. Plus, there are countless books of Biblically-correct Christian theology and apologetics on the subject. Again, arguing hermeneutics belongs on a different website.

      That said, most Wallis follwers will understand this: forcing someone to surrender his property against his will is theft, a violation of God’s law. There is nothing Christian about theft, or force. Unless they are completely thoughtless or a devoted progressive/collectivist/Marxist (redundant, I know), this gets their attention. After that, Wallis’s arguments can be taken apart, point by point.

      • acat

        “Voluntarily giving according to my needs is one thing, having the government do it for me is either robbery or slavery” …

        Something like that. It needs to be, to use an example from a more chivalrous time, the slap across the face with an armored glove. Once we have their attention, as you say, the rest of the argument falls into place.

        Mew

        • pastisprolog

          ROFL. May I ask which seminary? If you learned tat there, I might want to take a few classes.

          • pastisprolog

            nt

          • acat

            And can you imagine a cat attending a seminary? Never have, can’t come up with a scenario where I would, either.

            Haven’t ordered an ordination from the back of Rolling Stone either, but that’s more likely than seminary…

            Mew

        • Finrod

          Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

          Wallis is nothing more than a wanna-be-omnipotent moral busybody.

          • Kyle-MI

            n/t

          • Joshua Persons
          • Finrod

            I’ve seen (and used) that quote a number of times, but I never knew specifically where it was from.

          • marshmom

            …..but I could be wrong.

          • Bill S

            I’m filing that one away. Thanks for sharing it.

    • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

      I will be checking burgerkang and pastisprolog out as well.

      If we can take out Wallis or at least reveal him completely for the leftist tool he has become, then we will weaken their arsenal against us.

  • LibertarianHawk

    …that “Christ was a liberal” or something similar, I always wonder “Then why aren’t more liberals Christians?”

    Now, I suspect that most self-described liberals (or progressives, or whatever they want to call themselves on a given day) do — at least nominally — claim some religious faith.

    But many do not. And anybody who doubts that need do nothing more than browse around some of the more heavily populated leftist websites. It’s not hard to figure out that a very significant number of people there are not only themselves atheistic, but openly hostile to religious faith.

    And, of course, Marxist-Leninist communism was founded on the disbelief in God.

    So it’s always puzzled me that many liberals claim Christ as one of their own, but yet otherwise reject him so thoroughly.

    One positive thing about Jim Wallis and others like him is that, hopefully, he can help to bring more leftists to Christ — although I always get the impression when listening to him that he’s far more interested in evangelizing leftism to Christians than Christianity to leftists.

    • cari

      “But, I didn?t sense that night and don?t sense now that Jim Wallis truly accepts that people can be dedicated and consistent conservatives and passionate Christians, simultaneously.”

      I can sympathize a little with that. I don’t see how anyone could be a dedicated and consistent liberal and a passionate Christian, simultaneously. I honestly can’t. Whenever I see Obama bumper stickers on cars at churches and seminaries, I just shake my head.

      I attribute most of Obama’s support from Christians in this last election to simply not paying attention, or erroneous information.

      I went back to my seminary this last fall to register voters and to inform students that an alumni of that very seminary was running for congress- please check him out. It was Pastor Stephen Broden running against Eddie Bernice Johnson (both black). One black student told me he planned to vote “straight D”. When I asked him why, he replied, “Because that’s what we do.” When I was able to show him that Broden lined up better with his own values (pro-life, etc.) better than Johnson did, he said he still couldn’t vote for Broden because he was a Republican. So I asked him, “So, you are more loyal to the Democratic Party than to your own values and the same Biblical principles of the seminary you are attending?” He didn’t respond.

      • pastisprolog

        I have an article somewhere, from the University of Pittsburgh Alumni magazine, about the history of what was, for a time, the largest black newspaper in America, the Pittsburgh Courier. The article was written to promote a new documentary, Newspaper of Record: Pittsburgh Courier 1907-1965, about a truly extraordinary chapter in American history. The Pittsburgh Courier led, for example but not the least of its accomplishments, the successful effort to persuade the American Red Cross to accept blood from black donors.

        The Courier was read nationally. The editor, the courageous and famed Frank Bolden, was a dedicated progressive who made it his mission to use the Pittsburgh Courier to turn blacks against their historical support for the Republican Party and into Democrats. He succeeded. The student you spoke to is but one of the results.

      • runner12

        than it ought to be Cari. Many Christians were duped by Obama specifically because of his “social justice” emphasis. No matter that he is pro-abortion and a Socialist, which have nothing in common with Christianity.

        On a side note, many in the thread have questioned whether Beck was incorrect in labeling Wallis a Marxist. He was, but not for the reason stated, IMHO.

        Where Beck went wrong was confusing Socialism with Marxism. The philosophy is similar, but not exactly alike. Socialism is not so much atheist as it is a desire to control religion to benefit “the state”, which describes Wallis’ philosphy perfectly.

    • tcgeol

      Obviously, we can’t verify that he does or does not trust in Christ. Only he and God know that, but it appears that his leftist ideals trump his Christian ideals.

      As a result, it is very hard to give him credit for anything good, since his liberalism trumps his Christianity. Having said that, it is altogether too easy to go the other way – to a lot of people, my conservatism might trump my Christianity, and that is just as bad.

      • congressworksforus

        Remember that the Russian Communists never outlawed the Russian Orthodox Church.

        If Wallis is a commie, and he may well be, then he’s a charlatan.

        Or, he’s a tool in the communist arsenal.

        Personally, I think he’s a commie. Occam’s razor at work.

  • pastisprolog

    … to the church (the whole body of believers), conservatives and America because, just like with Darwin Day in churches across the country designed (but not understood) to separate the faithful from their book of faith, what Wallis does is plant seeds of doubt and division among believers, using the language of the Bible to promote un-Biblical beliefs.And, to the extent collectivism is opposed to the American experiment, Wallis promotes the deconstruction of the American experiment.

  • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

    When Wallis demands that voters pressure government to adopt certain policies because they are “Christian-Like” or they represent how “Jesus would Legislate” he becomes fundamentally apostate. I dislike Jim Wallis from the Left for a lot of the same reasons I dislike Judge Roy Moore or Pat Robertson from the Right.

    I’m all about rendering unto Ceasar. I wore the uniform of the US Army, work for the DOD and pay my taxes like a good Dilbert. What I’m not about, and what makes me dislike Wallis even more than I would the typical Sinister, is implying that your spiritual and patriotic duties both spring fromt he same source. They do not, and Wallis blasphemes when he claims that they do.

    Anyone who thinks that Wallis is just an innocent voice needs to spend six months living under sharia law. That would hopefully make them think twice about political Reverends, Priests, Mullahs or Lamas of any stripe, religion or denomination.

    If a man named Al Sharpton, who previously preached for a living, wants to run for President as a standard edition political leftist, I vote against him with no great malice or personal contempt. When he loudly proclaims himself as THE REVEREND Al Sharpton, it almost implies that you need to walk into the polling place asking “How would Jesus vote.” At that point, he becomes a threat to Democracy. At that point, his political theology reminds just a little of the intolerant Mullahs who advocate on behalf of Sharia Law.

    • acat

      For some reason, blaming the nature of human beings, very few seem able to “see” the rise of a left-leaning theocracy …

      In short, Jack, I agree that theocracy in general, be it of the left or of the right, is at best problematic…. (see Finrod’s quote of C.S. Lewis above)

      Mew

      • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

        Although I was personally thinking Elmer Gantry myself…

        • acat

          In the Heinlein stories around Scudder, 2012 was the last election…

          I’m sure RAH didn’t have a crystal ball or time machine – most likely he just picked an election year that’d fall well after he was dead….

          Mew

          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            Scudder wasn’t a Mayan.

    • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

      I understand your basic point but wonder how far you wish to take it.

      Everyone’s vote is predicated on their worldview, values, sense of morality, etc. As a Christian, my worldview, values, and morality are determined by Scripture. For example, I vote against abortion because Scripture tells me that it is morally wrong, that man is created in the image of God, and that life is a precious thing. Do you consider me wrong to vote based upon those beliefs? Am I wrong to advocate that other Christians should vote against abortion because it violates Scripture? Is it a threat to democracy for one to vote their belief system?

      • acat

        Specifically, abortion on demand is throwing away future potential. If a Michael Jordan or a Moe Lane or a Nicolai Tesla is one in a million, then we’re killing hundreds of these exceptional people every year.

        This is, in essense, a restatement of the greenies’ argument for saving the amazon rain forests, so is sorta fun to use on ‘em.

        In short, I’m sure you and I could debate ad infinitum on reasons for votes, kipling, but I’d get bored and you’d get frustrated, which why I’m much more interested in the purity of the candidates – will they stay bought? – than I am in the purity of the voters.

        Mew

      • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

        I would consider you getting elected to Congress on a platform passing a law that requires all people to vote like Jesus or Muhamamd would inimical to American Democracy. You telling me that abortion is a sick form of infantacide and then voting accordingly because because Zen Buddhism philosophically informed you decision is well within your Constitutional Rights.

        • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

          Thanks. I now grasp your point more clearly.

          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            For helping decent Americans work towards the safe and rare parts of safe, legal and rare!

  • johnt

    for what you want, to people who don’t deserve it, for reasons always vague, for ends never completed. And for egos never satisfied.

    • NRPax

      So I will just say “Bravo!” and leave it at that. And I’m going to save that the next time a liberal friend uses the term social justice near me.

    • Darin_H

      Wow. Yeah, not going to be outdone on that definition.

  • romeg

    I’ve only read one of Wallis’ books (The title escapes me) and my take is that rather than being a communist, he is a Theocratist. He seems to believe that, as you point out, our government should be modeled on the teachings of The Christ, all the while ignoring the fact that Jesus was/IS apolitical, holding every one who would dare follow him to a standard of personal accountability. There is no provision for transferring that accountability to The State.

    He disliked the Roman government’s treatment of people at least as much as he disliked the treatment of the people by the leaders of the Temple for whom he frequently expressed utter contempt (“You brood of Vipers”).

    Wallis is as human as most, perhaps ALL, prominent Evangelists in that he seeks the approval of other men, especially men in power. He wants a seat at the table each time it is set regardless of who is in power. Perhaps he views himself as a modern day John the Baptizer. Who knows?

    He is clearly anti-materialistic in his writings but I’m always at a loss to understand how impoverishing the wealthy enriches the poor.

    • Lords86

      That’s exactly what Wallis is – a theocrat – among other things.

      I’m not sure that he’s as anti-materialistic as one might believe – I think his bigger issue is who has the ‘material.’ ;-)

      • romeg

        When you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

        His support of so-called progressives links him to the worst of that particular breed of political creature. His screeds against capitalists ignores the fact that free market capitalism has liberated more people in the 20th Century than any movement in the last 500 years while the so-called progressive movement has enslaved millions in this country alone by trapping its clientele in a never-ending cycle of dependence on government handouts, diminishing their own sense of self-worth while punishing those who provide the funding for those handouts.

  • runner12

    Glad it was bumped to front page.

  • Warrior

    can serve to support almost any point one would care to make.

    But, “let him who does not work, not eat” is as simple and as aproprs today as it was thousands of years ago.

    And if the apostle Paul could make tents in an effort to keep his message pure, a whole lot of people in modern day America could go to work as well.

    I’ve said it a million times: coercion at the point of an IRS gun is not Christian charity and never will be.

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      it’s the complete upending of the Gospel message.

      Jesus didn’t speak to governments. And in the case of his time before Pilate, he wouldn’t even raise his voice to save his own life.

      Jesus didn’t share parables about how governments work.

      Jesus spoke to individuals, and his message was one of personal responsibility. Period. Wallis’ message is the absolute antithesis of everything Jesus said and everything He stood for.

      • earlgrey

        of Christ upside down to support the progressive agenda. They are doing that in towns and cities across the USA, when they aren’t busy bashing the Roman Catholic Church.

      • Warrior

        into the whole stupid argument. Personal behavior has nothing to do with the gubmint.

        Of course, and that’s why I said, “Coercion at the point of an IRS gun is not Christian charity and never will be.”

        Christian charity is an INDIVIDUAL response to God’s blessings, not some sort of wonkish implication for public policy…

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          ’cause I wasn’t and I don’t think I made that clear. Your point was absolutely right and I was attempting to toss a little more gas on the fire you started. :-)

          • Warrior

            I understood and thanks for your concern. Your comments are always appreciated (I must have a terrible reputation here on RS!)

            Anyway, it’s always amusing to see liberals trying to co-opt Christianity when it suits them, but disparage it and its practitioners when personal behavior, e.g. gays, etc., becomes the issue…

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            I just re-read what I wrote and figured it could be misconstrued. Although most folks who know me know it’s pretty hard to misconstrue when I disagree with someone 8).

            And you’re right about amusement. Frankly, I’m amused by people who will throw a fit over waterboarding a terrorist getting all warm and fuzzy over a guy like Wallis who tortures the Gospel message in ways that I think even the UN would object to.

          • pastisprolog

            It doesn’t even seem to mind the murder of Christians in Moslem countries.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            Mostly because their people were doing it. Torture OTOH…

  • rightwingmom52
    • Lords86

      In his book The Soul of Politics, Wallis ‘comes down’ on the pro-life side, which is exactly why I used the word ‘tends.’ As with so much of his politics and political rhetoric, in order to claim neutrality, he ‘knows’ his audience and addresses them, accordingly. Most of us aren’t permitted such latitude.

    • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

      it tended to land on heads….

      Binary systems don’t Tend to be just anything.

    • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil_truth

      He claims to be personally “pro-life’ as well as “anti-death penalty”. However, he only promotes the latter to political action; whereas he refuses to promote pro-life for political action because he claims it’s too “divisive” an issue. Which given his willingness to engage in other divisive issues means that he’s referring to his coalition with non-Christian progressives who support abortion, not wanting to possibly split his coalition.

      In other words, Wallis’ view of consensus is socially-liberal progressive Christians working with socially-liberal progressive non-Christians. Conservatives don’t count.

      Thus regardless of his strictly personal views, Wallis in practice is in opposition to the pro-life movement’s involvement in the political arena.

      At least, that’s what he’s advocated in print.

      • davesinsanantonio

        politically correct to actually save any babies from being killed. What a guy. We need more spiritual leaders who are that “pro life”.

        Sarcasm off now.

  • mine

    And there is no such thing as liberation theology either? Call him communist, call him Marxist, call him socialist – I don’t care. Because all are accurate. I am annoyed Wallis is being portrayed here as just misinformed. I am also annoyed Glenn Beck is lumped with this clown and also cast as misinformed.

  • aesthete

    and will add a few of my own:

    First, while Marxism and Christianity are mutually exclusive, socialism and Christianity are not: it’s easy to forget, but there are plenty of non-Marxist spins on socialism, and many of them are superficially more open to religion than the Marxist variety. (However, this is also technically true of fascism and other execrable philosophies, as well.)

    Secondly, in practice, there are many Christians who consider themselves Marxist, particularly in Latin America and some parts of Africa: you really have to twist your theology to get to that point, but it’s clear that Wallis has no problem doing just that. Eaglewatcher’s link upthread shows that Wallis has (or had) some serious Marxist sympathies; I wouldn’t dismiss Beck’s claim out of hand.

    • davesinsanantonio

      I wonder how they will try to reconcile that with “not everyone who sayeth unto me ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”. Of course, it won’t be they who will decide who gets in, will it?

    • Lords86

      First, most here who extoll Beck’s view aren’t critically examining communism’s view of religion and other tenets. They are simply looking at the issue of redistribution of wealth.

      Communism has many facets, two of which clearly demonstrate that Beck’s criticism of Wallis is simplistic, at best. First, communism abhors religion. Second, communism contemplates state ownership of the means of production.

      Let me suggest that Beck’s criticism and use of ‘communism’ is as much a function of the reaction it was intended to achieve as any other point. Calling Wallis a socialist, which is wrong as well, isn’t as appealing and fashionable, nor does it sufficient distinguish Wallis from many other progressive liberals.

      Wallis is not a socialist either – socialism, like communism, necessitates the role of the state in its redistributive policies. Redistribution of the fruits of production occurs not because of theological reasons, but as a secular act of compulsory provision and redistribution.

      Wallis is not secular, at all. If anything, he’s a progressive theocrat, who is increasingly intolerant of public policy that he does not view as consistent with Christ’s teachings. This is what makes him very dangerous.

      As to the practicing Christians, who consider themselves Marxists, let me suggest that they are neither. You simply can not be a follower of Christ and a Marxist, simultaneously. Hence, my use of the words ‘true Christian.’ Furthermore, how many of these so-called stand-alone Marxists would part with their wealth for the benefit of the whole – Latin American Marxism, perhaps in a way more starkly apparent than other communists elsewhere in the world, is and always has been about the accumulation of power – plain and simple – and a power which is entirely inconsistent with the weakness in which Christ’s strength is made pure.

      • aesthete

        but the quote “more Christians will come to view the world through Marxist eyes” is a direct quote from him, and pretty indicting. I imagine that he moved away from this view, as did most leftists, after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Perhaps what you saw when you talked with him over the course of a couple of days was a more mature and less radical version of Wallis, but the above quote makes it clear that at some point in his life, he had some serious Marxist tendencies.

        BTW, I would generally agree with you that a Marxist cannot be a Christian: since they are mutually exclusive philosophies, one or the other must be watered down for them both to coexist within one person, and usually it’s the Christianity that gets watered down.

  • silkywiley

    The use of Christianity is no different than the use of Islam for totalitarianism. Jesus clearly defines the difference. Use of Christianity to justify social justice is a perversions of religion. If you have an impulse to help the poor and downtrodden, consider it your own personal path, forcing it onto others through government is a perversion. As Jesus said, “the poor are always with you.”

    His following statement “I will not always be.” indicates that the higher calling is to aspire and work to personal enlightenment and transcendence.

    In his followers were those who thought that the mission of helping the poor was “the mission”. They objected to the woman putting expensive oil on Jesus feet and postulated that the money should have been used to help the poor. I think Jesus’ teaching would pretty well put Wallis in his place if he wants to justify on that basis. The betrayer of Jesus was the one who thought the mission of the poor was the more important. Something to think about.

    • pastisprolog

      and was not upset about the poor; he was stealing from the purse. He was also upset that Jesus wasn’t going to lead the Jews to victory over Rome in battle.

      Somehow, my other comments in reply got separated and are posted below.

  • pastisprolog

    I could fill up books with the writings of the men who created our nation, from the first settlements, through its founding and deep into its history as a nation, including the beliefs of the framers of our Constitution itself, with how deeply they believed America is inseparable from the Laws of God and the virtues of Christianity.

    But, I don’t have to. I point you to just two already written.

    The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States, Morris, Benjamin F., 1864. Reprinted by American Vision, Inc., 2007

    Christianity and the American Commonwealth, Galloway, Charles, B., Emory College, 1898. Reprinted by American Vision, Inc., 2005.

    The founders of our nation believed the American experiment would fail if she were ever separated from her Christian heritage. As we can plainly see, they wre right.

    • Lords86

      A little difficult to follow your argument.

      Sure, the Founders were Christian men, who believed that God had bestowed certain rights upon mankind, which for purposes of a political union no government would be empowered to destroy. These rights were not religious rights, per se, but natural rights.

      But, that fact has little to nothing to do with Wallis’ use of the government to advance religious/faith objectives.

      Our Founders constructed a union wherein it is usually permissible to advance government objectives through faith based organizations (i.e. churches, synagogues, mosques, etc.) (with certain limitations), but it is not permissible to advance purely faith based objectives through government. And, yet, that’s what Wallis seeks to do.

      Remember, while our Founders were almost exclusively Christian, their religious heritage included historical oppression and their ancestors came to America to be free from such oppression. It is anti-thetical to presume that they would have endorsed a government driven and measured by and against a particular religion’s tenets and faith based objectives.

      There’s a reason the Establishment Clause is in the First amendment to the Constitution.

      • pastisprolog

        The founders were deeply concerned that Americans would remain hard-working, thrifty, honest and God-fearing. But they knew the power of government would attract men least likely to have these qualities. They also knew it was not the job of government to create fair outcomes, but only honest opportunities.

        Where the Marxist says, “From each according to his ability to each according to his need,” the founders would have said, if they thought it needed saying, “By each according to his ability to each according to his ability.”

        They opposed every effort to make government the distributer of charity. To the extent they addressed public charity, they opposed using government to collect and distribute it.

        My post was in reponse to a previous one that said religion has no place in government. The founders clearly disagreed. But the founders just didn’t want government to choose, as in Europe, which Christian denomination counted as Christian. Remember, in Europe, to be the wrong type of Christian was to be no Christian at all. This, they would not tolerate. According to their own ratification debates, this was the central meaning of the religion clause of the 1′st Amendment.

        Also, they knew our form of Republican government depended for its success on people who were not pirates at heart, who would only deal honestly with each other, restrained more by fear of the all-powerful God than an all-powerful government.

        As James Madison said, “Our laws are made only for a moral and religious people. They are wholly unsuitable for any other.”

        • Lords86

          that the Founders clearly had a place for religion in government.

          I think some circumspection is required in order to make that an accurate statement.

          The Founders certainly didn’t disavow their personal faith, nor did they desire or require that others disavow their faith.

          Further, the Founders certainly would not have had any objection to the government using religious organizations to carry out governmental objectives, provided in so doing the government wasn’t endorsing one religion over another, either by means of selection or support.

          But, the Founders clearly would have a problem in a religious organization, even a Christian organization, using government to carry forward its religious objectives. You mentioned public charity as an example above – that’s a good example of where there would have been a problem.

          I think where I have difficulty with your statements about the Founders is the seeming emphasis you place on the Founders’ development of a government as the enabling guidepost for continued adherence to the Founders’ Christian beliefs. While it may have been each Founder’s personal belief, if not express aspiration, that America would reflect Christian values, the government structure they created contemplated that no Americans be or were prescribed to maintain any particular or the same belief.

          Certainly, as surely as they recognize the different stripes of Christianity within Europe, the Founders were certainly aware of the presence of significant Jewish patriots, by example, within the colonies and other non-believers. There is open question, for instance, as to whether Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin were Christians or Deists, which contemplated a more Unitarian faith system. By further example, the 1796 Treaty with Tripoli makes reference to the fact that the United States was not founded as a Christian nation expressly.

          Yes, there is no doubt that early American law reflects certain moral beliefs, but as any first year law political science student knows – legal mores developed long before our republic. The Ten Commandments, Hammurabi’s Code, etc. reflected the strong moral underpinnings which later found themselves codified in laws and standards employed by not only Americans, but all through Europe and other regions of the world. Moral society was certainly amplified by Christian beliefs, but can hardly be called the exclusive province of Christianity.

          My bottom line is this – Wallis seeks to use government to carry forward his faith objectives. Ironically, my faith objectives happen to align with his in many ways – the means do not. And, as a conservative, I don’t want the government screwing around with my religion anymore than I want my religion screwing around with my government.

          And, contrary to Beck, I need not declare Wallis as a communist or a Marxist to know that Wallis’ statements and actions violate these basic boundaries in ways that can ultimately be very harmful to our republic and very harmful to my personal faith.

          • pastisprolog

            The treaty with Tripoli is not dispositive. It was well known, then, that Moslem nations weren’t allowed to make treaties with Christian nations. Christian America, no treaty to end piracy against American ships. This was an expedience.

            I seriously don’t think the founders of our nation and the framers of the Constitution looked to the Hammurabic Code for moral principles, not when all they wrote on the subject was about the authority of scripture.

            Frankin’s Christian universalism is well known, but he didn’t incorporate any Buddhist, HIndu, Moslem animist or spiritualist philosophy into his mere Christian worldview. I am not saying he anticipated C.S. Lewis’s writings on the subject, but that Franklin forcused on the common ground of Christianity and not the donominational differences.

            As for the rest, I put at the bottom of this page my concluding thoughts about this subject, and a recommended reading list. There just isn’t the space here. I will let the founders themselves, in there own words in the books I’ve listed, and historians nearly contemporary with them, speak for themselves. There is a lot more that they wrote on this subject than I can ever do justice to here.

            But I will repeat this. The founders under all circumstances wanted to avoid a theocracy. To that, I’ll add this. They saw it as no conflict to base our government and the standard for its laws on Reformed Christian principles, and letting, actually encouraging, the people of the several states use their best judgement how to foster a union of Americans who knew scripture, governed and lived by its principles.

            Last this. This conversation has been a most enjoyable experience for me. The questions have been thoughtful and significant. I encourage you to read the books I’ve cited. I believe they are authoritative on the subject and a far better guide to the mind and motives of the founders of our nation than the progressive revisionist junk that has been published with increasing frequency and ferver throughout the 20′th century. If you want more titles I can provide them, but they become harder to locate as time goes on. It has taken me a very long time to acquire some of these works. To say some have become obscure is an understatement. Libraries have been discarding many of the old American histories. It is a shame, but it allows the new stuff to stand uncontested.

            Thanks to you all for a great experience.

      • pastisprolog

        And there is more. The founders were also deeply concerned about property rights. They knew that if the government could compel Americans to surrender their property (including wealth), the government could compel them to surrerender anything. A government that controls your property controls you. This was the lesson history had taught them. We were to be secure in our persons and property, except in limited and extraordinary cases.

        Where did this idea come from? It was new. The idea that man had inalienable rights from God, rights to his life, to himself and the fruits of his labors, including his wealth and property, came, from a Reformed Christian view of the Bible, especially the New Testament. There is a reason it was Reformed Christians, not Roman Catholics and certainly not Moslems, Buddhists or Hindus, that fought first and still fight hardest today to end slavery.

        This is how America ended up as the first liberal constitutional republic. I would argue we are still today the only liberal constitutional republic.

        The word, “democracy,” isn’t used in either the Declaration of Independance or the Constitution. Why? Because the founders knew majorities in democracies vote themselves other people’s money. They were absolutely opposed to that idea.

        The founders didn’t share Wallis’s view of a collectivist Christianity, and they created a government they hoped would be prevented from becoming one.

      • pastisprolog

        All laws proscribing unacceptable behavior do so from a moral perspective.

        Stealing is a crime. Why? What was the source of that? Universally, here in America, the founders looked to the Ten Commandments. Same for murder, rape, adultery (well, it was then, in the states anyway) and so on. None of these were the responsibility of the federal government; they belonged to the states to administer. The federal governemt’s reponsibilities were severely limited to specific areas of national interest. The rest belonged to the states.

        The founders believed that the moral center of America was the Christian worldview. But under that (not over it) and answerable to God, they added limited, not all-powerful, government.

        • aesthete

          That is fundamentally untrue. While the Founders were influenced by the Ten Commandments, they certainly did not explicitly base our government or the vast majority of our laws on the Ten Commandments. Violations of the First and Second Commandments, for example, are not only not prosecuted by law, but are absolutely protected by the First Amendment (and some violations of the Third Commandment, as well). No laws that I know of attempt to “honor the Sabbath” (though some poorly-thought out blue laws exist to honor the day right after the Sabbath :) ).

          Even the most religious Founders, such as John Adams, stated only that a country governed by religious law would be good and that republicanism only works with moral people, not that the US was an embodiment of such a country. The US is a country with a secular state, which was also populated by many Christians whose religious beliefs formed their views on morality. However, I would say that the Founders were Christian humanists with unorthodox views on separation of church and state. The US is not even close to being a “Christian country” (whatever that means).

          • pastisprolog

            with some of it. I’ll have to brief, as I am leaving soon.

            Justice Joseph Story, appointed by President James Madison, wrote this in his 1804 book, A Familiar Exposition on the Constitution of the United States of America. “An attempt to level all religions, and to make it matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobriation, if not universal indignation. Earlier, in the same paragraph he wrote, ?? the general, if not universal , sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State, so far as such encouragement was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.?

            The federal government would never, then, have entered the state arena of laws regulating personal conduct, but states, then, were rife with laws prohibiting adultery, failing to attend church, certain kinds work on Sundays and so on. As time passed and the country increasingly secularized, these faded away with gaining speed. But I grew up in a state where almost all, so called, “blue laws,” were still enforced for a time. I still can’t hunt on Sundays, here, or buy a car or other motoeized vehicle.

          • acat

            The opposite of hate is not love. Those two are the same face from different angles. The opposite of both is apathy.

            What the founding fathers created was a government that was apathetic toward religion. Not making a state religion was a hugely new thing at the time, even though states with official religions now seem .. strange .. to us.

            Also, keep in mind that “christian” is a broad term for a whole passel of smaller sects – baptists, catholics, episcopalians, methodists, in alphabetical order – and that wars had been fought between sects.

            By creating a government that was apathetic toward religion while retainining the basic moral framework that all of the common religions in the U.S. at the time would have recognized – the ten commandments being common to christians, jews, and musselmen – the founders “got out of the way” and let the religions and sects duke it out in the marketplace of culture.

            Mew

          • pastisprolog

            As Justice Story wrote, they would have considered it unacceptable to cteate our government indifferent (apathetic) toward religion. (I quoted him above)

          • Doc Holliday

            I would say indifference shows slightly more knowledge of the subject, but with the same lack of interest in the outcome.

          • acat

            All religions are free of state interference to duke it out in the marketplace.

            Keep in mind the separation of church and state, which dates to this period, was intended only to keep government out of the church, not to keep religion out of the the men (and women) who make up the government. See the Womens’ Christian Temperance Movement, the Oneida Colony, the Mormon experience, the Jewish experience, etc.

            There was nothing keeping a religious person from running for office or campaigning for a given policy etc. etc. .. but there’s some specific restrictions against establishment of a single religion, setting a particular sect above another.

            I view this as apathetic toward outcome, once the playing field is set up, but quite energetic in setting up the boundaries of the field.

            Mew

          • Doc Holliday

            it does not matter what your religion is, we are all under the law. I think it is fair to say the Founders did not imagine a nation with no common values, not common history, not common set of beliefs. But this shows there strength, it is almost as if they did forsee the future.

            It does not matter if the Founders thought we all would be Christians or something else, if they had any fault is was to fail to be even more clear about the limits of the federal government. I guess they just did not foresee such power hungry fools who would use the courts to warp the Constitution.

            We are not officially a Christian nation a la the Vatican. But we are a nation founded by Christians, with a government largely based on English common law but with much greater protections to the individual.

            anyone who wants to make this nation a theocracy is no better than someone who wants to make or government disown all religion, in fact the former is worse. Religion flourishes with freedom, the Founders gave us that freedom if we can keep it.

          • Doc Holliday

            the Founders would have opposed Islam at all costs if it tried to infect the freedom of others. Many muslims can not understand how a government can not be based on religious dogma. Sort of like how many Indians did not understand how a man could own property. But the greatness of Western Civilization marches on, even in the hands of the “worst generation”.

            *the worst generation specifically excludes our fighting men and women, they are the best we have ever had.

          • acat

            Musselmen, that is. “Shores of Tripoli” is in the Marine Hymn for a reason.

            If you look at the enlightenment thinking, and at our government, the founders had to look to ancient Greece and Rome to find some of the models they used – there were no European democracies at the time, eh?

            I disagree that the founders expected a common cultural framework. If you look at the original 13 colonies, there were a *lot* of different threads of cultural DNA contributed. That’s one reason why I think the founders didn’t set up a state religion – they wouldn’t be able to pick just one sect, and realized doing so would shred the union.

            Mew

          • Doc Holliday

            and quickie marts owned by Koreans. And they would not have forseen eery liquor store manned by Ethiopians, at least where I live.

            The problems between the colonies was not based on religions, as opposed to Europe a century before. I don’t question these legal immigrants, it is the illegals from Mexico that need to be stopped.

            Every nation should have quota of legal immigrants, with the preference going to the highly skilled. Mexico should have no more slots than the UK. Fair is fair, and if costs us a lot, so be it.

            BTW, I never said 1850 England was a democracy, but it was the most free nation on earth other than America. Many are never taught that Americans Colonists had more freedom than the average Englishman, Scot, or someone from Ireland. We forget that geography gave us freedoms those close at hand never had.

            I don’t get your point about DNA, if you are talking the 1750s the DNA was quite similar, other than the Spanish and French in the Americas. Later we absorbed people from all over Europe and many from Mexico. But those people wanted to be Americans, today we have those among us who care a whit about America. And those people should be sent packing.

          • acat

            Almost tempting to take them one at a time.

            In reverse order, you’re simplifying. Yes, French, but *which* French? There was, at the time, still quite a difference between the north and south of France… I also seem to recall reading that Baton Rouge (or maybe New Orleans?) was something of a penal colony. That kind of distinction is often lost these days…

            It’s even worse with the English. The northeastern Puritans were not the same as the English in Virginia, the Scots-Irish indentured servants in Georgia. Some were here for religious freedom, some for profit, and the culture of the different groups was hardly homogeneous “English”. Also, don’t forget New Amsterdam was not an English city… originally. ’twas Dutch, until the English seized it and re-named it New York. Don’t also forget the Hessians who came over as English troops. Mercenaries were a good bit more the norm. Many stayed.

            And yes, the average colonist had much more freedom, in 1750, than the average european. That should be taught more often .. but it also becomes a part of the cultural DNA.

            I’m not going to argue over “quotas” because I think the idea is a bit .. odd. Limit it to those who can reasonably be expected to support themselves, and who wish to assimilate, eh?

            As for those who are here and have no intention of assimilating, well, we can point out the door. I’m all for Arizona-style immigration controls. Sounds like Texas may be following suit. That’d be a shock to the coyote system, eh?

            Mew

          • Doc Holliday

            before it is overrun. Look at any map based on immigration. Those from Latin America come here, those from the Middle East and North Africa come to Europe. You will always have the poorest moving to the most advanced societies, the law is proven just like Newtons.

            The new part is that recent immigrants have no desire to assimilate. And we as a nation have no control of our borders or customs department. If we decide that parts of America should become hispanic, then let it be so. But should we not have a vote? Should ten illegals from Mexico come here for every man from Poland who has dreamed to be American?

            It seems to me we are too cowardly to ask these questions. Also, white people in America and across Europe do not procreate, they are dying off. This is not about race per se, but do not Americans have a right and duty to vote on the future of their country?

            YO)U mentioned Texas, but statistics show that Texas will be majority ‘minority” in just a few years. The Republican stronghold might turn blue in a few cycles.

            I am all for immigration, but the priority should be for engineers, such as people from India. No nation should get a special status because it is near our border. I know that is not reality, but it could be if people stood up. What I foresee is a bloated goverment nanny state paying those who will not work with the retirement incomes of those that did.

          • aesthete

            First, materially poor people are not necessarily deficient in the skills and attributes that could make them bad for the country: many of the Eastern European Jews came to Ellis Island with nary a penny to their names, ditto Puerto Ricans and others. Even groups with less desirable cultural attributes, like southern Italians and the Irish, did quite well for both themselves and America. An “unskilled immigrant” is not necessarily a liability, but rather, an investment that has not yet matured.

            Going on that point, I don’t really think that it’s important that we preserve a certain demographic mix if we inculcate values: the real cowardice, IMO, is from people who shrink from saying that yes, our values are better than those of third-world savages who would rather find new and exciting ways to violate women (metaphorically and otherwise) than find cures to cancer. Most of our problems root from the fact that the Americans here are too cowed to say definitively that some culture (*not* races) are better than others, and that dysfunctional cultural groups can and should move closer to our ideal: the Japanese, Chinese, Irish, and Italians did it, and I don’t see how Hispanics are inherently different enough that they can’t adapt to our customs as others have in the past.

            IMO, a flexible immigration system that does not subsidize laziness (i.e., no welfare for immigrants, legal or not) tends to weed out the parasites and allows us to keep the good immigrants. This is particularly true if we are strict about requirements to keep immigration cards (i.e., no tolerance for violent and property crime) and retain the right to deport if they are troublesome: ethnic groups are pretty good at self-policing, in such cases.

          • Doc Holliday

            I don’t believe America has the potential to grow economically like it did during the mass immigration waves of the 1800s, early 1900s, etc. The nation was different then, the potential was massive and those that worked hard made a better life for themselves, and they made a better America. I think the various ethnic groups added to our strength and vitality. They also altered our culture into something distinctly American.

            What we have today is a a bloated socialist state and a populace that seems to be pulling apart, not coming together. For the first time in a long time our heirs will likely face a poorer life than we have,. I think the America of 1950 had more potential for immigrants than America today.

            The Greatest Generation of the 1940s went crazy having kids and working hard. Their kids were the Worst Generation AKA the Baby Boomers. These people brought us a social welfare state based on the idea that Americans would procreate and get good jobs, that way they could pay for the safety net.

            But what happened is these selfish people did not procreate. Of course Americans continued to innovate and be productive but over the decades that group has gotten smaller and smaller. The libs always talk about the gap between the rich and poor, well it is also a gap between those who are educated and those who are not, and there is a gap between those who innovate and those that just survive.

            We have a shaky economy, high unemployment, a bloated social welfare state, and massive debt. And to add to this we have millions of illegals breaking into our nation, forcing themselves into our house. It is a fact that those so poor they must flee their homeland are not going to be the most educated and have the most skills. So even though many of them are very hard working, they don’t make enough to pay for all those aging member of the Worst Generation, for this reason our nation is suffering crushing debt.

            Now we either are going to take down the government Leviathan or we are going to have to get some control of our borders. We can’t afford more welfare cases, we can’t afford more schools, we can’t afford more jails, given our present circumstances.

            As for race, I have nothing against any race, I do have something against radical Islamic culture. I would not trade places with Europe, because that is where their illegals are coming from. And they have assimilation problems on a much greater scale than do we.

            But from a political perspective, we can’t deny the facts. Blacks and Hispanics vote OVERWHELMINGLY for liberal Democrats. Look at this map, http://right-mind.us/blogs/blog_0/archive/2008/11/15/64322.aspx check out Texas and counties that border Mexico. Throw in the big cities, and a simple conclusion must be reached. Political assimilation just has not happened. Sooner or later fertility rate disparities will create more blue counties and fewer red counties in Texas. I am not saying what should be done if anything, but I do know we better dismantle Leviathan before it is too late.

            Do me a favor Aesthete, check out Mark Steyn’s latest article and let me know what you think. http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/564996/201103041845/Why-Are-We-Still-In-Germany-.htm

          • aesthete

            I agree with parts of it, but find some of its assertions overly broad: the statement that Mexico “won the peace” because of the demographic components of Texas are spurious, in the same way that our large German and Italian populations don’t mean that Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy “won the peace” in the US. Also, assertions that third-world immigration inevitably leads to poorer outcomes is simply not backed up by the evidence: Asian and Jewish immigration (even from third-world countries and states, and when they have been penniless) have been an unqualified success for the US under any and every metric. Even groups with more mixed records (Irish, southern Italians, Hispanics) have, on net, been enormously beneficial for the US. Steyn’s theory only makes sense if there is a fixed amount of wealth that must be distributed, and basic economics teaches us that wealth is *created* not distributed from a common weal.

            More worrisome is the idea that American culture is not being transmitted successfully (which Steyn notes): IMO, this is going to be a problem even if we reduced immigration to zero, since it means that we will simply decay and stagnate as our cultural confidence disappears. That’s what happened to the UK; gone are the days when a British officer, in response to hearing that the Indian culture approved of burning the wives of a dead husband on his funeral pyre, would confidently cite the British cultural tradition of hanging men who did that. IMO, immigration can only help that, as it would help Americans reassert themselves and their cultural traditions in the face of inferior cultures perpetuating in the US. Among the many benefits of mass immigration, I count the fact that it exposes cultural cowardice and impels people to rectify this.

            I know that you’re not a racist, and I happen to agree that culture is important: I just think that unskilled immigrants have historically had a massive capacity to receive and transmit American culture, and that such potential is often squandered by conservatives (who should be playing up the fact that immigrants are coming to a great country that will give them a warm reception if they work hard). Think about it: most immigrants who come here to stay are already aware that something in their country of origin is flawed, but if conservatives are talking about how they’re stealing the jobs of the native-born and other such nonsense, they will naturally be more inclined to believe Dems when the Dems say that the only reason that the US is rich is because it raped and pillaged their countries.

            We really could use more conservatives willing to look at immigration as a perpetuator of American culture, and who are willing to transmit this culture to immigrants — in a world where native-born Americans are reproducing at barely above replacement rates and where the average American is becoming more and more liberal, it is incumbent on us to find ways to ignite the flame in the hearts of immigrants for the American dream, as we did in the past.

          • Doc Holliday

            And I have said before that immigration has benefited this country. A solid nation that loses population is literally dying, that is not a good sign for such nation’s future. My concern is the combination of illegal immigration, poor education, the welfare state, and unions.

            I agree with you we need to light a fire amongst all Americans to believe again in the American Dream. There is an old saying that a European sees a rich man and wants to take his money so he will be like the rest. And the American sees a rich man and wants to be like him one day. Is that still the case? I hope so but have my doubts from time to time.

            I think Steyn’s point is that Western nations are losing because they lack the confidence in their culture. Multiculturalism has failed, and it was a creation of the left, not the right. It is quite true that immigrants have come to this nation en masse and assimilated rather quickly. Just look at Little Italy, in NYC, it is now reduced to one street with some Italian restaurants.

            This country still attracts immigrants in large numbers, but we have structural problems that must be fixed if these people are going to prosper as those that came before. Immigration is not even the real problem, the problem is that our government punishes success, and the government is what divides us into tiny faceless groups with no real humanity.

            I am a bit down right now, it almost feels that we will be the generation that loses America. I would hate to have that on my conscious.

            BTW, Steyn is not anti-immigration and that article was a bit all over the place. His book “America Alone” is a better, clearer articulation of his ideas. I don’t agree with all he says in the book, but it is a worthwhile read.

          • Doc Holliday

            I just think it is right and fair that we have an immigration policy that helps America, for example, since we don’t produce enough engineers, we must make it easy for them to move here.

            I know a growing population is usually a good thing if the people have the opportunity to succeed. Russia, Japan are facing dying populations, that wont help their economies much. But we should have a right to say who comes in and who does not. illegals are committing a crime, they mine as well break down the door of our house and say “I live here now”.

          • aesthete

            Although I feel strongly on the subject and will continue to argue for a “wide gate, tall fence” policy, the right of a foreigner to emigrate to this country isn’t fundamental enough to be held as sacrosanct as, say, the right to free speech. I think that we diverge when we look at the potential value of immigrants (particularly unskilled one); in general, the immigration of unskilled labor with relatively few restrictions has been one of our greatest strengths as a country, and there’s still room for more of them (so long as they can make their own way, and not live off of the fruits of others). I also see many of the problems that arise from the immigration of unskilled persons as arising from the coddling that migrants receive from state and federal welfare programs.

          • Doc Holliday

            if we did not have such a massive welfare state in place, then border control would be less important. It would be important, but less important. People would migrate to were the jobs are and leave places that did not offer them opportunity. An example of this is London. Prior to the economic problems of the last few years London was booming. A very high percentage of French college graduates moved to London, because that was were the opportunity was, and they were allowed to move within the EU.

            But since we created a welfare state, we can’t just let everyone in. Try jumping a plane and tell them in London you want a job and see what happens. They only let in the people they have to let in by law. Yes, Americans live there, in fact many do, but they have special skills that the Brits need, they only let people in that they need.

          • aesthete

            OTOH, I think that it would be pretty easy to exempt immigrants from access to social welfare programs. I would, of course, like to eliminate the programs altogether, but that’s not as popular as exempting immigrants is. If we exempted immigrants and required ID, that would greatly facilitate us once again becoming a country of legal immigration and rule of law — both good things, IMO.

          • Doc Holliday

            but what could we exempt them from? Welfare maybe, but what about schools? Could we decide to not allow them medical care if they can’t pay? I don’t want second class people in this country, that is not right.

            We should have had the guts to secure the border and make immigration tougher. BTW, I would take a hard working immigrant over a Democrat every time, too bad most of them are Democrats.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            if we got rid of all property taxes, and all income taxes and went to a pure sales ax at both state and federal level.

            That way, immigrants, illegals, prostitutes, drug dealers, etc. would all be paying some tax. I resent that after working hard, dragging myself up from poverty. I now have to pay income taxes and very large property taxes to partially fund various programs and giveaways to illegal aliens.

            The Fair tax is an unworkable scheme with a weird giveback program. I would favor a progressive final transaction tax with no exemptions, that way you could keep the rates fairly low.

          • acat

            I want immigrants who can self-support or bootstrap off existing working family – in short, the model that built Chicago, and other industrial cities. One person comes over, sends money home, works his way up, then sponsors his cousin, gets the kid a job, repeat a few times…and the whole family is here – earning their way. As long as they’re working, contributing, I don’t care how many are from where.

            Access to social services – school *in english* is absolutely required for everyone. Kids can have one year of translation tutoring – after hours – to learn english. This is a bit brutal, but it *works*. See, again, Chicago. Unemployment maybe on the same “you work, you pay in, you receive” basis that it’s supposed to work on for everyone – but just getting rid of the 99s would help there. Social Security as a defined contribution plan. Work?

            As for taxes, I really don’t like sales taxes… but I’d be willing to support a national sales tax if it’s the only way we can get everyone to pay something. No tax on food or medicine, everything else *including rent* is fair game. (hey, if they can tax me when I buy a property, why not when I rent one?) Everyone needs to contribute .. a big part of the problem we have right now is something like 45% pay *no* income tax so are literally voting themselves bread and circuses on my dime.

            My alternative to this is to tie the vote to whether people file a 1040. Require that, for federal elections, the voter rolls be checked against a list of people who have filed 1040s. Since anyone can file a 1040ez even if they don’t owe a dime, this doesn’t seem to be too much to ask.

            Mew

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            once you start exempting anything you open the door to every lobby, besides you would have to raise the amount of the tax. The only way to keep it low is no exemptions.

            And it is a final transaction tax, that means that rentals, or services, they all pay the tax as well.

            But you could make it progressive. Purchases over $10,000 for instance, might have a one percent higher rate, then another percent for anything over 100k, etc.

            That way a rich person buying a big luxury item does end up paying a little more. That would be the way to sell the tax to the public.

            Sales taxes are really much much better for the economy than are income taxes. They are less susceptible to political meddling, and do not have the effect of distorting the investment markets.

          • acat

            One problem with the current tax code is that it isn’t clear. Another is that some people don’t pay anything – and I agree that a sales tax is a nice equalizer on that front. I like the idea of making it progressive as well as those who choose to drive, wear, or live in status symbols would end up paying for their choices.

            We’re going to have to disagree on exemptions, though. They can work, if they’re clear. States (Alabama comes to mind) that exempt food and medicine from their sales tax manage. I think they may tie it to their foodstamps program, i.e. if you can buy a food for foodstamps, it’s tax-exempt.

            Keep in mind that the sales tax is an evil, insidious sort of thing. People notice, whether they take their shoebox of paperwork to H&R Block or muddle through the 1040 with a calculator and a pencil, when they’re paying more. (or their rebate shrinks, either way…) They don’t notice as much when the price of a six pack goes up $0.25, or the price of a car goes up $100…

            Cook County, home to Chicago, has an 11% sales tax rate. Highest in the country. And they’re likely stuck with it since the county can’t raise property taxes or levy an income tax without pushing more folk further out of the city. Especially since there’s plenty of nice foreclosures for sale (cheap!) in the collar counties.

            Just because it starts reasonable doesn’t mean it’s going to stay that way…

            Mew

          • powertothepeople

            much a tax alternatives as I believe they are a pipe dream. I say that since the government has never been known to give up a revenue source even if something else would bring in more, if it is easier to understand, or causes everyone to contribute. They simply keep the one they have and add the other.

            That being said, how is a progressive tax, should the plan you discuss become our tax code, anything different from what goes on now. We as a country punish those who have excelled and made more money than the next guy, so how would changing the tax system yet still cause those with more to pay a higher percent be any different that what we do to them now.

            I would love a new tax system, but once I hear tax the rich more, I no longer support the idea. And considering the plan you discuss, if I understand it correctly, would be tax on purchases, why should we cause the “wealthier” to pay a higher percent than those with less. And where do we draw the line as to who pays a higher percent or on what dollar amount do we draw the line. If your idea was made the national tax, why does anyone need to pay a higher percent. The rich would end up paying more simply because they buy more and buy higher dollar items. In my humble opinion, no need to make them pay a higher percent as well.

          • acat

            This has become a serious thread .. not jack, maybe, but .. redirect?

            The answer is that nobody (unless Obamacare should prosper) is forcing anyone to buy an Escalade over a used Suburban to run the kids to soccer, eh?

            It is progressive, but it isn’t class-warfare, tax-the-rich. It’s tax-the-spenders… and that happens in pretty much any system anyway.

            Mew

          • powertothepeople

            I do not look much into alternative tax ideas as one, I do not think they will ever happen or at least replace the current system and two, I hate tax codes, tax math, etc and leave it all to my accountant.

            So I would never say anyone was wrong or right when it comes to anything that is taxes, you seem to know a bit about it, so I will leave it in your capable hands to discuss further.

            That being said, again if I am not understanding what you mean please correct me as I am always willing to learn something, but I still have a little reserve issue with the comment “nobody (unless Obamacare should prosper) is forcing anyone to buy an Escalade over a used Suburban to run the kids to soccer, eh?” as that sounds a lot like the mentality he who can afford the nice things in life and chooses to buy them must pay for those who can not so they can fee vindicated that the rich are no longer quite as rich.

            I understand no one, as a general rule, forces anyone to buy anything. But I just have an issue with someone charging more to someone because they can afford to buy a BMW and do so just because it is a higher standard car than what someone decided is the line for necessary car. I own a BMW and I own a home. I already pay a luxury tax just because I wanted a nicer car. I am not rich, but someone along the line deemed the value of my car to be above what was standard so I must have money laying around and they need some of it.

            I just feel people should be able to buy what they want without having to pay luxury taxes or pay a higher percent. If my 50, 000 dollar car seems extravagant, fine. But to charge me more percent wise seems to be to be socialism. I already pay more in taxes on that car then lets say someone with a 15000 Kia due to the difference in value. But I should only pay more based on dollar amount, not percentage.

            But again, like I said before, when someone says tax, my mind shuts off. If I am misunderstanding what you are saying, just speak slow for me, explain once more so my mind has a chance to absorb it. I just hate taxes and tax info that much.

          • acat

            We’re in agreement that this is all in “never going to happen” land. (unlike the Fair Tax folk who think if they can just convince the right people…)

            What you’re talking about is a flat sales tax rate. Kyle brought up that this leads to charges of “regressive”, and from there it’s a short hop to “you hate poor people” .. and a progressive sales tax, one that increases a tenth of a percent per thousand, would address this.

            So, yes, your 50,000 BMW would be taxed at a higher rate than my used 8500 Toyota Tercel. On the other paw, you pay a higher percentage in income tax right now, so it’s not like it’s a status change, you’re just getting gouged for spending decisions instead of earning decisions.

            Mew

          • powertothepeople

            and understand it. Do not like the idea of a “progressive tax” and could care less if people think I hate the poor as anything a conservative does “hurts” the poor or shows our “hate” for them.

            But yes you are correct, I already get hit more than some in income, so it would be no different.

          • acat

            We’re in agreement that this is all in “never going to happen” land. (unlike the Fair Tax folk who think if they can just convince the right people…)

            What you’re talking about is a flat sales tax rate. Kyle brought up that this leads to charges of “regressive”, and from there it’s a short hop to “you hate poor people” .. and a progressive sales tax, one that increases a tenth of a percent per thousand, would address this.

            So, yes, your 50,000 BMW would be taxed at a higher rate than my used 8500 Toyota Tercel. On the other paw, you pay a higher percentage in income tax right now, so it’s not like it’s a status change, you’re just getting gouged for spending decisions instead of earning decisions.

            Mew

          • aesthete

            but I also resent having come up from poverty only to pay income taxes to fund various giveaways to citizens — and the citizens not only vote, but should have had enough initiative and pride as natural-born Americans to get off their fat *sses to do something for themselves, learn history, and stop voting Democrat! Stealing from my paycheck isn’t suddenly better just because the thief has the good fortune of having a US sticker on his passport. If we got rid of state welfare programs for illegals (something that has broad support among Americans according to polls) and legalized good immigration we would be solid.

          • pastisprolog

            so I’ll add these.

            “The Bible was America?s basic textbook in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

            “Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

            “The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.” Noah Webster.

            “Almost all the civil liberty now enjoyed in the world owes its origin to the principles of the christian religion.” Noah Webster, Noah Webster, History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), p. 300, Sec. 578.

            “In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed….No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.” Noah Webster

            “The brief exposition of the constitution of the United States, will unfold to young persons the principles of republican government; and it is the sincere desire of the writer that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion. Noah Webster, 1832, History of the United States

            “The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles, which enjoins humility, piety, and benevolence; which acknowledges in every person a brother, or a sister, and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free Constitutions of Government. Noah Webster, 1832, History of the United States

            “The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all of our civil constitutions and laws….All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. Noah Webster, 1832, History of the United States

            I don’t think it would have occured to our founders to create a nation without the principles Noah Webster and Justice Story summarized.

            The founders absolutely rejected the idea of theocracy, but saw their experiment as anything but, even as they saw it as an expression of their Christian worldview made into our Constitution.

          • aesthete

            that the Founders slanted Christian humanist, and these quotes superbly illustrate this point (I love Noah and Daniel Webster, btw; some of my favorite Founders). Where one errs is to a) take this to mean that the government constructed by these Founders was to be religious in nature, and b) to see a nation-state as being “Christian” in character.

            The first point is dangerous because it is often used by some on the right to, say, argue that the Founders would have supported recriminalization of sodomy, re-institution of blue laws, and all manner of legislation that marginally reduces freedom in favor of enforcing through legislative fiat religious injunction. This is errant: the Federal government was certainly established as a secular state with protections for religious (even blasphemous) speech.

            As for the state governments, they a) did not institute changes upon their independence to restrict religious liberty or make themselves more religious in character (at best, they preserve and recognize the status quo on these issues), b) were still significantly more conciliatory towards those of other faiths than the European states that their citizens formerly belonged to, and c) quickly shed their non-secular nature in favor of secular government in very short order (i.e., within the first 15 years of the republic’s founding). Indeed, most state governments were still secular in character, and the secular state governments (Virginia, Vermont, I know I’m missing some others) were models for the reform of the other states, not the other way around.

            IOW, the changes made by the Founders and 13 Colonies upon independence were towards maximization of human liberty, not towards more criminalization of behavior considered immoral by Christianity. Arguing for marginal change towards less freedom and more government regulation of the public sphere on the basis of Founders’ support for some illiberal laws makes as much sense as arguing for a return to slavery on that same basis: in both cases, independence effected no change in these areas, it merely acknowledged the presence of some violations of freedom that were already present before independence.

            The second point I wanted to make is a bit pedantic, but nonetheless true: nothing can be “Christian” that does not have a soul and the volition to accept Christ as Savior. I do not have a Christian couch simply because I am a Christian and own a couch: I could not have a Christian couch no matter how hard I tried, because a couch does not have qualities which allow it to have that descriptor tied to it. So it is with government: no matter how hard anyone tries, they will not be able to make a Christian government. It is simply an impossibility, so even if one believes that the Founders set out to create one, one would have to come to the conclusion that they at best came up with a government whose actions are claimed to have some tie to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

          • Doc Holliday

            no modern Evangelical or anyone trying to sell snake oil can change that. We should be happy they created a society where we can practice religion freely. If we compared their daily lives to an unattainable modern religious orthodoxy, there would be many things that would not fit.

            I mentioned one time that George Washington would not even notice someone smoking marijuana but would challenge a man who purposely hurt a woman’s feelings.

            The Founders were who they were, and they were better than us, I know that. Anyone who tries to co-opt the dead for a personal agenda has not the gravitas to persuade anyone.

          • pastisprolog

            the way it is interpreted today. But I was wrong. I divide my American History books into two periods: those writtem before 1900 and those written after 1900. The reason is because of the impact progressive thought from Europe had on the philosophy and practice of historical analysis and writing.

            I have a fewe histories written after 1900 that still reflect pre-progressive version of historical scholarship, but by the time H.G. Wells wrote The Outline of History in 1920, it is impossible not to notice a profound shift in the interpretation of historical facts; whatever the facts were they were being used now to support the progressive interpretation of history.

            For example, there is not a single Supreme Court case prior to 1928 that supported the progressive interpretation of Jefferson’s famous, “separation of church and state,” comment, a phrase nowhere in either the Declaration of Independance or the Constitution. As I earlier posted, Justice Joseph Story, appointed to the Supreme Court by President james Madison, the man who is the principle architect of the Constitution, wrote that the founders would have rejected most forcefully the idea that the Constitution was neutral on Christianity.

            From the first, every attempt to have the Supreme Court declare unconstitutional the use of Bibles as school text books, prayer in schools, scripture as reading material (Read the Blue Back Speller and the Little Red School Book to see how broadly the Bible was used in schools.), the use of the Ten Commandments as the foundation for moral law, etc., was strongly rejected, as the justices ruled such were protected by the 1′st Amendment.

            By the 1920′s, the Brandeiss Court was decidedly progressive and the trend began to interpret the Constitution based on progressive social and political philosophy.

            As had been warned of in an earlier time, if the words in the Constitution can be interpretted by the changing standards of time, then they mean nothing certain, and anything may be done in its name that was never intended.

            Beginning at the end of the 1920′s and continuing relentlessly since, the ACLU has successfully argued in front of courts increassingly sympathetic to progressive philosophy, that the Constitution forces the government to stay away from any semblence of promoting religion. This is simply at odds with all earlier court decisions on the matter, and with the founders intentions.

            As I compare the histories written before 1900, and the debates and letters of the founders themselves, I see no indication that the founders (Thomas Paine aside) had the intention and desire to make the federal government religion neutral. That idea surfaced much later, and stands in contrast to the vast body or their own written words to the contrary.

          • acat

            The quote “separation of church and state” is incomplete – it was intended to keep the State out of the Church, not the other way around.

            One viewpoint is that the founders did this in part to preserve the status quo – that is, since there were a number of different denominations with very large majorities, and the founders had more important problems to address, they kicked the can down the road, simply preventing the government from setting any one denomination above another was a reasonable compromise to all denominations represented, eh?

            I’m happy to agree that the ACLU et al get this wrong – there is nothing that should prevent a religious individual from serving in government and expressing his or her beliefs, as long as this does not rise to forcing those beliefs on someone else, i.e. setting one denomination (or, these days, religion) above another. We’re better off, as a country, with religious displays on the courthouse lawn at christmas, eh?

            Mew

          • ssshannon1026

            It is indeed incredible how clueless the nation is as a whole regarding the actual origin of most legal concept regarded today as representative of the purposes our government was founded to establish. In most cases, it can be correctly asserted that we are living in precisely the sort of society the founders struggled most strenuously to protect us from.

          • pastisprolog

            It’s what’s been taught for a long time, but it isn’t the true history of America.

          • streiff

            1. Neither of the Websters can be considered “founders.”

            2. In the early US sodomy, bestiality, and all manner of favorite libertarian activities were criminalized as they should be. Many states imposed fines for not going to church on Sunday or for engaging in commerce on Sunday.

            3. A handful of the signers were “humanists.” The overwhelming majority were fairly orthodox protestants.

            4. None of the liberalizations you mention really started happening until around the turn of the 20th century. Not that long ago most states had Blue laws.

            5. So you can’t have “Christian” beliefs? Really?

          • aesthete

            1) Why not? Noah Webster didn’t sign the DoI, but he did Historians for years have expanded the definition of “Founders” to those statesmen and persons who had enormous impact on the early US and the cause of Independence — Noah Webster certainly counts. (Regarding Daniel Webster, fair enough since his time frame was the 1800s: I guess I should have been even more pedantic than usual by writing a paragraph making these differentiations clear beforehand, no? :) )

            2) Irrelevant, since none of my posts mentioned libertarianism, only the secular nature of the federal government, trends towards secular humanism, and a general lack of marginal change towards *more* criminalization of immorality based on sectarian doctrine. (Criminalization of sodomy, etc were banned in the Colonies and Europe long before Independence, aka they were the “status quo”.) For the purposes of this discussion, my personal view on these matters is irrelevant and I have kept them out of the conversation.

            3) False dichotomy: humanism (the belief that human freedom and individualism are inherent and worthy of respect) and orthodox Christianity are not at odds if one counts post-Reformation and counter-Reformation thought as “mainstream” for the time (and I don’t know why you wouldn’t).

            4) Many of the states shed the state religions mentioned in their colonial charters when they created their own Constitutions; others retained them but shed them before the 1800s. Massachusetts is the only state that I can recall that kept its state religion until the 1830s. Several other injunctions related to religion were repealed far before the 20th century, and marginal change during the 1800s tended towards less regulation of religion. Sorry, but a move towards secular government is not a new trend in American politics (though a move towards compulsory secularism in the public sphere and other realms certainly is).

            5) *You* can: an object with no soul and decision-making capacity cannot. Government is a corporate entity with no soul, so it is clearly a category error to call it “Christian” in any significant sense of the term. It is also not holy (i.e., set apart by God) in any specific sense; in the sense that it is a source of temporal authority ordained by God, it could be, but that also applies to the King of Jordan and the Communist Party in China, so it is not uniquely holy in the sense typically described by social conservatives.

            Offtopic: what does your RS username mean?

          • ssshannon1026

            The simple fact is that ‘free exercise of religion’ was considered fundamental by the anti-federalist precisely in order for Christianity to continue to be a guiding force in maintining a civil social society at the state and community level without the need for massive government involvment. In other words, it was perfectly appropriate for religion to influence the state (and hence, indirectly, human conduct), but not vice versa as we have today.

          • aesthete

            anything that contradicts what you just said. Indeed, I don’t know how one would go about getting religion to stop influencing what citizens think about politics without severe violations of personal liberty. It is simply a fact that the federal government is secular, and that state governments mostly shed themselves of their non-secular charters soon after the Revolution.

          • Doc Holliday

            people on their religious beliefs. If you check historical polls, the argument is even more clear. Our Founders were mostly affected by the “Enlightenment”, something that challenged the religious orthodoxy that preceded it for hundreds of years.

            I think with the Founders we caught lightning in a bottle, in ways we can’t even imagine. I am glad our Founders did not come out of the Great Awakening or the Reformation. They created a balanced state, with no official religion and respect for all religions.

            Having said the above, our Founders were mostly Christians, mostly of English descent, and they based much of our government on English Common Law. One thing many people don’t realize is freest common man on earth in 1760 was an American colonist planter. This takes nothing away from our God given right to rebel and create the greatest nation on earth. But people need some perspective. It was our rights and freedoms that drove us for more.

            There is, and their never should be a national religion. But we did build a nation with a taste of the Puritan work ethic. We did build a nation founded in the rights of man based on mostly Christian beliefs. And those of other religions should be danged happy about that.

        • silkywiley

          Past is Prologue, Sir: My bedfellows comment is for the particular type of Christianity being put out these days such as Black Liberation theology and social justice. I believe (as I think you do) that our founding fathers and the constitution has genesis in Christianity, and also in Greek and other enlightened thought along with English common law and a whole evolution of western civilization, one succinct aspect being “give to God what is God’s and give to government what is government. The clause referring to establishment of religion is beyond brilliant and has helped this country immensely. It also appears that you are far more well read on this subject than I. I don’t not doubt or dispute your contention about the reliance on Christianity in the formation of this country.

          I was very dubious when Bush brought about the church initiative. I consider it dangerous to both the Church and to the State to blur that line. Men in both camps of religion and government covet the powers of the other. History and current events show that combining the two can bring hell on earth.

          I also believe that the constitution and the success of this experiment in self government relies on a moral people and resort to a higher authority. Without a coherently moral people, all is lost anyway no matter the government.

          However, there has been an erosion in Christianity into these very secular areas. To me, these new strains of Christianity are troubling.

          India is likely to surpass the US (if we don’t get our act together) in the next 25 years as an economic powerhouse. They are a very religious country. Their whole country is a shrine and their religion is known to be the most tolerant on earth, they don’t prostiletize (sp) and theirs is a peaceful religion. Hinduism has gone through a growth and evoution itself, putting aside their stagnant reliance on fate and casting aside their caste system. We should hope and pray the Islam can do the same and come out of the dark ages.

          Although I am concerned about persons such as Wallis, my sympathies are with the social conservative in the US and not just the fiscal conservatives. I don’t want God taken from the public square. I just don’t want people like Wallis using the name of God for their own vanities, predjudices, causes, aims and desires. I prefer Churches to keep to their “subject” God. After all, Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

          Also, I am not sure where you find in the New Testament that Judas was stealing from the “purse” he was holding or that he wanted Jesus to lead a revolt against the Romans. It is not clear to me that you could say that Judas (from the New Testament) was uninterested in the poor. I know that your perspective on the subject is one view, but I don’t see it clearly in the NT.

          • runner12

            “He (being Judas) said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief , and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it.”

            I think actually that all of those posting above thread are basically saying the same thing. This country was undoubtedly founded by people who adhered to Judeo-Christian values and the Bible clearly played a role in how they constructed our government. It may have not been the only thing, but it did play a signficant role.

            However, our Founding Fathers did not believe in a theocracy nor a state-sponsored religion (as seen in England). They were all too aware that the powers-that-be had used religion in the past to persecute those they saw as political enemies. As a result, our Founding Fathers placed the clause in the Constitution establishing the freedom of religion. This was never meant to remove God nor Christianity from the public square, as seen today. Religion had a role in society and in politics, according to our Founders, but it was not driven nor controlled by government.

            As to whether or not we are a “Christian” nation, I think maybe a better term is that our nation was founded on Judeao-Christian values. It is more accurate and avoids any confusion.

          • silkywiley

            I should reread that section. Apparently Judas was like many who claim to be representing the needs of the poor only to enrich themselves. So many like him today.

          • runner12
  • pastisprolog

    Unless I quote extensively from literally dozens of history texts written before progressive historians began to rewite what happened (they must have thought no one would keep the older histories) I know I will be unable to change many, if any, minds on this. My own was once completely pursuaded that it was the original texts that rewrote history and the new ones had somehow revealed the truth long kept hidden. I know now which version of history is the rewritten one; the modern version.

    This isn’t the forum to present what amounts to a 19′th Century history class bassed on original and early historical material. It would take thoussands of paragraphs. I recommend several sources written prior to the invasion of progressive historical analysis.

    A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents 1789-1908, Vols. 1 – 11, Richardson, James D., Bureau of National Literature and Art, 1908.

    A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States, Story, Joseph, American Book Company, 1840, or the earlier Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1933, upon which this later condensed version was based

    The Framing oif the Constitution of the United States and the Fathers of the Constitution, Ferrand, Max,New Haven and London University Press, 1913.

    Christianity and the American Commonwealth, Galloway, Charles B., Emory College, 1898.

    The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions o fthe United States, Morris, Benjamin F., 1864

    Reprints of some of these books are available from variousl sources and others aren’t currently available unless you search for a lending historical library or have access to a local one at a university.

    There are dozens of other history texts that support the history told in these, but they are all approaching one-hundred years old.

    It will be a shame if the only place these true accounts of the foundation of our nation remains is in a few small collections of people like me, determined to preserve our original history. It will be a further shame if the truth of our founding is lost forever to the slant imposed on it by progressive historians.

    I would not have believed these modern histories were wrong if I hadn’t read the older histories and first-hand accounts of our founding for myself. This is what I recommend.

    • aesthete

      Write a diary clearly defining terms and arguments, and support your arguments with quotes. You seem intelligent and well-read on the subject, but that is wasted unless you educate others on what you have learned. IMO, there is at least some talking past each other going on, and a diary formulating a logical argument for your case will not only help to see what our disagreement is (if there is one), but will also educate the RS commentariat. I imagine that it is difficult to find the books that you have mentioned, and even more difficult to find the time to read them and compare to other works, so a summary of your findings on the subject in essay-length form would make for a great diary.

  • ohtimtim

    Civil Institutions o fthe United States, Morris, Benjamin F., 1864 is available as a free download on Archive.org

    • ohtimtim

      mentioned are also!

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