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Should Libertarians Be Banned From CPAC?

Maybe it’s time to define Conservatism. People throw around the term and it’s getting almost as used, abused, caricatured and feigned-persecuted as the term RINO–everyone’s favorite fallback when they choose political expedience over principle.

Republicans are NOT necessarily Conservatives, although many Republicans are conservative. So, envision the Venn Diagram above as having Republicans all around. Some Republicans are incoherent. That is, the slide between the circles for convenience sake or depending on what idea is currently trendy.

Politicians and their political staffers vacillate between the circles; usually based on political convenience. For example, almost all Republicans pay lip-service to fiscal conservatism but almost none of them believe it in practice. They all have their exceptions because they all have their pet ideas about what the government should do. Most of these ideas mean getting into your business.

Some politicians hold socially conservative beliefs but don’t like talking about them because it’s icky. More of them, especially in the Senate, are socially liberal.

Republicans killed their brand by nearly abandoning any form of fiscal conservatism. They believed in keeping taxes, but not spending, low. This caused the government to grow and the future debt obligations foisted on future generations to grow with it. The Democrats have since made the Republicans look like pikers in comparison, but the Republicans still have a ways to go to undo their image and action problem.

Now, there’s much ado right now about the Conservative Political Action Conference because an identity-politics group GOProud has been allowed to attend CPAC. Having read founder Chris Barron’s material and seen his activism, it seems that his group fits into two circles (or in the past, referred to as two legs of the Conservative tent)–the fiscal conservative and hawk circles. Here is the group’s belief statement:

What we believe
We are conservatives who believe in limited government, individual liberty, free markets, a strong national defense and a confident foreign policy. We believe that every individual should be equal under the law. Click here to learn about our federal legislative priorities.

I’m pretty sure the “equal under the law” thing is a euphemism for gay people being married like hetero people. Otherwise, this is a fiscally and defense-wise conservative group.

Meanwhile, there are Libertarians of the Ron Paul variety. Last year, they notoriously won the CPAC straw-poll (a function of a bunch of college Ron Paulians being shipped to the conference to stuff the voting). You can look at the Libertarian’s platform here. There is little about social issues, and in fact, many Libertarians are pro-Gay Marriage and pro-abortion. Or, they believe that these are personal choices and not to be part of the government at all. As to foreign policy, many libertarians are frankly anti-war, period. Some others believe in border protection with the rest of the world on its own. Others believe that America is only obligated to fight back when they’re attacked (and the 9/11 attack was not a real attack).

As far as I can tell, many, if not most, libertarians inhabit only one circle on the Conservative Venn Diagram. In fact, Libertarians are so adhered to being anti-foreign intervention and pro-abortion and gay marriage that they vote Democrat — see also Megan McArdle, et al.

Should these people be excluded from CPAC? They only constitute one leg of the Conservative tent while the GOProud constitutes two.

I’ll come back to that question. For a moment, let’s consider the Tea Party. When polled, Tea Partiers are very socially conservative. They emphasize fiscal conservatism because they feel the threat to the Republic and to personal liberty is the vast debt and the ever more powerful federal government–both of which strangle the freedom enumerated in the Constitution.

Does this swing both by the Tea Party, and by the nation generally, toward more fiscal restraint mean that the social issues are no longer important? Certainly not! It just means that many Americans believe that the pressing issue is the suffocating debt. Many also believe that many social ills can be solved by getting the government less, and not more, involved in citizens’ lives.

The Tea Party’s focus makes Republicans uncomfortable, because, more than any other policy, fiscal cuts are concrete. Lofty rhetoric can be thrown around about social issues, but so far, the only way at many social issues has been by cutting public funding (a fine strategy, by the way). Money can be measured. Republican action on such a tangible circle will be judged and judged harshly come this next election.

In an effort to conflate things and confuse the issue, many Republicans and even some Conservatives, throw the libertarians and the Tea Partiers into the same boat. This is a mistake. Tea Partiers are very concerned about fidelity to the Constitution and fiscal restraint and worry that much of the tradition that made America great is not being conserved. Libertarians would like to progress toward new social structures, tend to be more secular, and tend to have isolationist foreign policy views. These are big differences.

Another note. There is a strain of Big Government Conservatives in the Republican party. These folks have strong sympathy for social justice issues–they might want universal health care, for example, because they believe it’s the Christian Thing To Do. This impulse can also influence foreign policy–intervening on behalf of Christians being massacred in nations being overrun by Islamists (Sudan) or sending billions in foreign policy aid to Africa for AIDs medicine and Malaria prevention, as an example. These folks often favor Amnesty for illegal aliens. President Bush was this flavor of a Conservative. He was hawkish and socially conservative but he was not, in the least, a fiscal conservative. He saw the government as an objective force for good. To fully understand this strain, read Michael Gerson’s book Heroic Conservatism (I may be the only one who read that book, but it laid out this philosophy).

It is safe to say that the Tea Party reacted to this lopsided conservatism. At what point do Christians need to tend to their own house? America’s house needs some tending. And so, the fiscal brakes have been applied to get True Conservatism back in balance.

In addition, there are one-issue voters in every circle. That is, there are some Republicans who only vote Republican for fiscal reasons (they own a business and don’t care about the rest of it, for example). Some vote Republican because they’re one issue is abortion. They give to the SBAList and they vote Life. I have evangelical friends who chose Mike Huckabee on only this issue. The rest of his stands mattered little. And then there are a whole new group of Republicans who are somewhat derisively labeled “Neocons”. These are hawkish foreign policy folks, often but not always Jewish, who were turned by the 9/11 attack. These folks can be quite liberal on spending and social issues.

Being a Republican is indeed a Big Tent. And all the one-leg folks will be at CPAC, too. The SoCons, the NeoCons, the Libertarians–all guys who may consistently inhabit only one circle–will be there.

Back to GOProud and Libertarians.

What to do with them?

I remember being at a conference two years ago being exasperated at the naivité of the group of libertarians and an old GOPer said to me, “We need their votes, too.”

But CPAC is NOT the Republican party and it’s not the Libertarian Political Action Conference, it’s an ideological gathering where people work together to form action around Conservative Ideals. The Conservative Political Action Conference brings together all those who have disparate conservative principles; activists, who gather information, share information, and act on that information.

Some folks don’t get on the agenda. In fact, Pamela Geller missed being on the agenda in years past because the topic of Islamism in America and around the world was too un-PC. She rented a room and had overflowing crowds anyway.

Some folks get into the conference that some others don’t like. I could list some organizations that I’m not fond of who’ve been regular CPAC attenders. No matter, in the war of ideas, the truth always wins.

For those irritated by the Gay Marriage idea being allowed in the tent, isn’t it time to do something at the event to convince the attendees of the value of Traditional Marriage? If a session such as that isn’t allowed on the agenda, isn’t that a big enough idea to rent a conference room and speak on it? The fact is, the Value Voters Summit speaks to one leg of the tent. It is, in a sense, preaching to the choir.

The conservative movement swings. And different issues come to the fore depending on the circumstances. It is not being overly dramatic to believe that America faces a dire fiscal crisis and it is the defining issue for the next two years. That doesn’t mean all other issues are irrelevant. It just means that fiscal conservatism is at the fore.

Since Libertarians occupy the fiscal conservatism circle, they’re getting more attention and validation than they’ve had in years. Being that many of them are so annoying on other issues, it can be grating to have them be center stage when they aren’t conservative in any other meaningful way. Still, that doesn’t mean that some ideas that had been out in libertarian land aren’t now mainstream conservative ideas–auditing the Fed comes to mind, cutting whole government departments comes to mind. Ideas that were once unthinkable are now at least being considered. How do we put these fiscally conservative ideas into practice?

I’m sure you see where I’m going with this…

The answer to the question about whether Libertarians should be at CPAC..is well, yes, they should be there. And so should GOProud. They have every right to try and convince people of their ideas. The Conservative world is not the Borg. It is not some monolithic hive-mind like the Left enjoys. There are debates and the circles expand and constrict.

The fiscally conservative circle was nearly non-existent for years. I’m glad it’s back. I hope it can make a difference policy-wise and through concrete legislation.

And I hope social conservatives don’t abandon CPAC. I have strong reservations about identity politics in conservative thought. In fact, I’m pretty sure identity-politics are antithetical to conservatism as a philosophy. Still, we need to reach more minority voters and convince them of conservatism. How do we do that and not balkanize conservatism?

That’s a real discussion that must be had. And CPAC is just the place to have it.

COMMENTS

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
    • Death_of_the_Donkey

      CPAC is by definition the CONSERVATIVE political action committee and libertarians are definitely distinct from conservatives even if they vote for the same candidates most of the time.

      • acat
      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
        • JSobieski

          Isn’t the purpose of all political activity to influence public policy?

          Doesn’t the drive to influencing public policy mean we should encourage people with some commonly shared interests to join up with us even if we disagree on some things?

          The only bad thing about the CPAC conference is the annual discussion on whether someone should be banned or not.

          • leftylurker

            nt

          • Death_of_the_Donkey

            when a group attempts to unduly influence something well beyond their representation of conservatives at large (I am looking at the Ron Paul supporting libertarians), then at some point it stops being the conservative pac and becomes the libertarian pac. And with Ron Paul’s win of the straw poll last year, that has essentially happened.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • JSobieski

            I could care less about a straw poll, that is not purpose of CPAC.

            Better to be a bit over inclusive than the opposite. For example, Robert Spencer doesn’t support the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but he could give a better presentation on Islam than those who support those wars.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
    • aesthete

      as American conservatism is, and always has been, very dynamic from the time of “fusionism” in the 40s onwards. Conservatism has been extremely well-served through its engagement with other right-of-center ideologies. School choice, the all-volunteer military, free trade, homeschooling, privatization of government services, a strong preference for lower taxes/spending/regulation, and several other aspects of conservatism that are now considered vital were shamelessly ripped off of libertarian thought (as was pretty much all of our economic thought): and right we were to co-opt those ideas!

      While I wouldn’t consider them to have been the roaring success that libertarian influences were, one would also be remiss in not noting the influence that neoconservatives have had on the conservative movement, particularly in the realm of foreign policy: interventionism, nation-building, and universal support/advocacy for democracy worldwide were not considered particularly conservative concepts until much later on.

      The ban business is flawed, because it does not allow for the possibility that dialog between movements on the right can change the main strain for the better; one need not become a government-hating, flag-burning anarchist to accept that some libertarian points on the validity of government intervention have merit, or a “compassionate conservative” with a new white man’s burden in tow to acknowledge that the US can and should promote democracy in the world to some extent.

      In short, other movements can provide positive feedback and modifications to the dominant strain.

      Keeping conservative dynamism in perspective, an approach for who or what should be allowed would be as follows:

      If you are with us on most issues, or if you can justify your deviations from standard conservative positions using conservative logic and/or premises, and if you make your arguments in a respectful manner, you’re in. If you’re justifying your position using progressive terms or assumptions, or impugning the motives/character of fellow attendees, you’re out.

      • california_red

        “If you are with us on most issues, or if you can justify your deviations from standard conservative positions using conservative logic and/or premises, and if you make your arguments in a respectful manner, you

      • acat

        http://www.redstate.com/bs/2011/02/03/no-truces-no-trucers/#comment-3911

        The Conservative Movement is not a thing. We have no gatekeepers, no membership cards, no dues, no bylaws. It has no meaning to talk of keeping people out of it.

        Mew

        • YnotNOW
          • acat

            it’s that some people around here insist on spreading lies and deliberately misconstruing what libertarian thought is that I get tired of. Same garbage over and over.

            I’m glad that this place exists, and that some of y’all are willing to hear a different point of view…. and if I can correct one or two misconceptions along the way, I’ll be a happy enough cat.

            Mew

    • Right Reason

      but yours says it better. 5^5!

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • hoosierteacher

    They aren’t just ignoring 1 third of the conservative plank (social, ie gay marriage and abortion); they are actively working to promote abortions and gay marriage.

    Libertarians (at least) just ignore that plank. (And they aren’t conservatives anyway, they’re libertarians).

    But GOProud is actively working against the interests of conservatives. If you don’t believe it, read this from National Review:

    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/258516/cpac-s-culture-club-kathryn-jean-lopez

    GOPproaud has attacked Demint (from the article)-

    Last fall, Barron all but

    • hoosierteacher

      went on MSNBC to talk about what he called “crazy social issues” of conservatives. Again, read the National Review article and tell me that GOProud is something you want to allow at CPAC.

      GOProud may have a place in the REPUBLICAN party, fighting to change what that party stands for (by being pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage, for example). But they can’t go to a CONSERVATIVE group and try to change the meaning of conservative. It won’t pass the smell test.

      • jamesmackey

        That want to ban the libertarian wing of the party. The Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan wing of the party. Well the NeoCon and Social Con wings are responsible for Obama being President today so methinks they need to sit down and be quiet. Promoting endless in the Middle East and turning off suburban independent voters .

        • lineholder

          Thanks for your advice in telling SoCons to “be quiet”. In case you haven’t noticed, the more we hear it, the more verbal we become.

          • Bill S
        • The_Gadfly

          and you’re no Ronald Reagan.* He was no libertarian. He was a solid conservative embracing all three legs of the true conservative stool Melissa Clouthier outlines in her article. He respected Libertarians, and took their good ideas and made them part of his program. He respected Neocons, and took their good ideas and made them part of his program. And while Libertarians and Neocons may hate it, he was always a SoCon, and took their good ideas and made them part of his program. He was ALWAYS one of the first to speak up about the horrors of abortion, or to support Second Amendment rights. No SoCon I know voted for The Big 0.

          *Okay, I didn’t know him in the sense of I met and talked with him on a daily basis, but I watched him lead us away from the brink the last time we were there. I heard many of his famous speeches first hand, and I’ve read some of his books, the most important of which is In His Own Hand, a collection of his speeches in which the originals and his edits are shown.

          • e_rowe

            You say, “He respected Neocons, and took their good ideas and made them part of his program.”

            That’s just not true. Granted, there were times, such as the approach he took to the Philippines toward the end of his presidency, where he buckled to the pressure the neocons put on him. But that was the exception. And even then, he clearly didn’t like it.

          • aesthete

            In fact, one of several changes that he made in terms of foreign policy was being less picky about our allies’ domestic politics than Jimmah was.

            Reagan certainly supported democracy rhetorically (and funded propaganda to that effect) and was, I’m sure, pleased when other countries got democracies w/rule of law, but he didn’t let that get in the way of winning the Cold War or, really, any of his objectives vis a vis foreign policy. Reagan hated racism, yet he was reticent to put pressure on S Africa’s apartheid government because they were a great ally. Reagan despised authoritarians, yet he didn’t let that get in the way of supporting dictators in Chile, Haiti the Philippines and others who were anti-communist. Reagan was not a fan of theocracy, yet he sent money to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, instead of sending in Americans to fight there (which Carter was not discounting as a possibility, judging by the fact that he reinstituted the draft in response to the USSR invasion of Afghanistan). Reagan hated nukes, but he still kept some around. In short, Reagan was not utopian in his foreign policy.

          • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

            Ronald Reagan

            We can all support nuclear disarmament, but we must still live in the real world.

            The Contras provide what should be a perfect example of how to spread democracy. If we simply armed folks around the world governments would be less oppressive.

            Forget nation building in Afganistan or Iraq. Arm everybody and let them sort it out.

            Even the current crisis in Egypt could be handled that way. Air drop AK’s into everybody’s back yard. It might mean the end of Mubaruk but I doubt the MB would see any advantage from it.

          • http://www.scragged.com petrarch

            Has that ever been tried? Global enforcement of 2nd Amendment rights!

            But I rather doubt either the world or the American electorate is remotely prepared for the absolute bloodbath that would ensue.

            Reminds me of Rumsfeld’s observation during the Iran-Iraq war – “It’s a shame they can’t both lose.”

          • e_rowe

            If the citizenry of the world were armed, we’d enter a time of greater peace than we’ve seen in a very long time.

          • http://www.scragged.com petrarch

            It wouldn’t STAY a bloodbath. Eventually, you’re absolutely right, general peace would ensue.

            But for at least a little while, it certainly would BE one as everybody’s animosities got washed out and things restabilized.

          • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

            Arm every body on the subway and what happens? Does the Subway become a bloodbath? Did any state allowing for open carry or shall issue suffer even a temporary bloodbath? Subways with armed citizens become nice, friendly, safe, polite ways to get from A to B.

            Same with airplanes, btw.

            Arm the Coptics in Egypt or the Christians in the Sudan or well you get the picture. A few dead thugs attempting to rape the farmers daughter or round up the Christians and the others get the message.

            The reason why we haven’t had another 9/11 has less to do with T&A security and more to do with Al Qaeda’s inability to find people smart enough to detonate their underwear and dumb enough to do it.

            In other words most people are not willing to die AND deceive themselves into thinking that is victory.

            People use force to impose their views on others. (Even if the view is, “I want what you have.”) This is only possible when they perceive a disparity of force that allows them to believe they can win without suffering permanent harm or losing their life.

            It doesn’t matter if we are talking schoolyard bully or thug dictator the same principle applies.

            The answer is to equalize the available force.

            Call it peace through strength.

            Or as used to be said”God made men but Mr Colt made them equal.”

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            Just in case you haven’t seen it yet, “The Gun Is Civilization”

            http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/the-gun-is-civilization/blog-325317/

          • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics
          • JSobieski

            You may hate that he said that, but he did.

            He also justified the illegality of prostitution on the basis of the harm principle.

          • JSobieski

            You may hate that he said that, but he did.

            He also justified the illegality of prostitution on the basis of the harm principle.

          • jamesmackey

            http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/2011/01/reagan-was-no-neocon

            The Reagan’s with their good friend

            http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/photographs/large/c21878-25.jpg

          • JSobieski

            The scene ended with Wallace leaving the room in disgust.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            but I’m not gonna dig all that stuff up now…maybe more later…but certainly in his context of the Cold War, Reagan was always opposed to the Nixon-realist branch that sought accommodation with the USSR. Reagan’s letters and speeches show that his heart ached for the millions sentenced to slavery by detente. His plan was to defeat the evil empire. For then, he was neo-con.

          • e_rowe

            http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/06/07/think_again_ronald_reagan

            You’re right. He wasn’t a neocon by any stretch.

          • jamesmackey

            How Reagan Beat the NeoCons

            http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E07EFDF1530F932A25755C0A9629C8B63

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            see that Reagan loathed the realist crowd/Nixon/Kissinger types since the early 60s.

          • jamesmackey

            Realist. Just look at what he did while President. Ignored the hawks. Pulled American troops out of the Middle East.

          • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

            It is hard to say RR ignored the hawks. Reagan defence build-up apparantly did not show up for you on Google.

          • JSobieski

            Of course, I am not clear on what the definition of neo-con is.

            If speaking idealistically in a pro-American way makes one a neo-con (a broad definition indeed) then JFK was a neo-con.

            On the other hand, Reagan was the only President after 1980 to avoid nation building. He definitely didn’t look at Lebanon through a neo-con lens.

            All that being said, I am taking myself out of this thread.

            AChance would have raised the circular firing squad description by now, and he would have been right. This is like that scene in Braveheart where they argue about documents and lineage re: who is the proper King of Scotland when there isn’t even a Scotland.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            the majority favored neo-con type interventions. Pat thinks that once the USSr was defeated that all danger to the US died with it. He’s wrong.

            Reagan was fighting a Cold War. But had he removed regimes via military action and force as in Iraq, I suspect that eh would have offered them a chance at self government before we left.

            more later on another day
            will try and find my old column that had links to others supporting the proposition

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            http://spectator.org/archives/2004/06/16/reagan-iraq-and-neoconservatis

          • aesthete

            From the article cited.

            This is what defines neo-conservatives as apart from other sorts of conservative interventionists/foreign policy thinkers. IMO, Reagan would not have accepted that as true, given his experience with socialist groups in non-failed societies like the US and his belief that homegrown liberalism was dangerous. This silly idea that the “al Qaeda ideology” is just a cause of failed societies or a lack of opportunity is incredibly fallacious in much the same way that “blowback” is: it posits a single cause for radical Islamic extremism and, really, everything under the sun: neoconservatives (and for that matter, non-interventionist libertarians) have fashioned a decent hammer through their writings, but not every problem is a nail.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            of neo-cons is just not accurate, especially when you look at what actions neo-cons take, but there are many that would over-emphasize that maxim and I would not agree with that. So if you want to define neo-cons by that sub-group and imagine that that one sentence tells all, then fine.

            I think the better analyses of neo-cons is when we come up on actual events and ask what the anti-neo cons would have done?

            Would they not have taken out Saddam even after 911?

            If they would have, then 80% of the argument is lost.

            The only remaining question is how long they would stayed.

            Would they have left before the surge and left the nation to Iran and al qaeda?

            Or are we to believe that we would have been better off trying to put in a Saddam 2.0 sans terror ties?

            please

            more later

          • aesthete

            including punitive expedition and bombing available in the Iraq War. IMO, any of those options would have served us better than the occupation — but then, it’s easy for me to say that in hindsight.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • aesthete

            none of us are.

          • The_Gadfly

            While they get a couple of specifics wrong, on the whole they do a good job. Specifically they’ve spelled out what I’ve thought for a while now was the key reason to invade Iraq: it was the most promising location for a stable Arab secular democracy. The ideological battle is more important than the physical battle, although the physical battle has to be won before the ideological battle can be waged.

            As aesthete already noted, I don’t think the ideology “springs” from the failed societies under tyrants. But I do think those failed societies provide easy access to what those tyrants regard as the canon fodder with which to fight their wars. Which means establishing stable prosperous republics in their regions are a two-pronged attack against the tyrants. First it dries up their supply of canon fodder. Second it directly confronts their despotic ideologies. That comes with a price. The despots recognize the lethality of the two-pronged attack, and double down on holding power because without it they are dead.

          • JSobieski

            because even Libertarians (or most of them at least) understood that we had to act in a certain more aggressive manner to contain the USSR.

            When the USSR fell, that is when the neo-con division came up.

            Buchanon is an outspoken opponent of the neo-cons who was a vehement Cold Warrior in his day.

            I posit that the neo-con distinction on foreign policy is not cognizable prior to 1989. However, the lack of nation building in Reagan’s 8 years suggests that he was something different than a neo-con.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            irrelevant. Pat has moved left on many issues.

            There were distinctions in foreign policy generally and in the Cold war related to principles later applied to the evolving definition of neo-cons and Reagan is on the side of the anti-realists that discouraged him from seeking liberty for the slaves under communism.

            Also, neo-conservatism was first defined in the 60s via Kristol and part of that definition was a loathing of the weak on defense.

            And besides you haven’t had time to read the article..what else is new..smile…new date might make your head explode…and you being a lawyer just like me….

            back to work

          • aesthete

            and a fairly large contingent of “old guard” full-spectrum Republicans who would disagree.

          • JSobieski

            I remain skeptical that Cold Warriors are necessarily neo-cons. Thus, I do not consider Reagan’s Cold War record to be evidence of his neo-conservatism.

            It seems to me that for the term to have any meaning, neo-cons are tempted by nation building. I see no evidence that Reagan suffered from such a temptation.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            The Kissengers and Reagan. Then the same realists that opposed the neo-cons also opposed Reagan.

            The issue used to determine this is Iraq. I beleive that Reagan would have taken out Saddam in 1991; would not have put up with him in the 90s and surely would have taken him out after 911 and would not have left Iraq with a new dictator.

            more later when i have time

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            that have no basis in fact and etc

          • The_Gadfly

            The article I referenced in my quote would have been in the 1983-84 time frame.

            As for the lack of nation building, that was the whole point of arming the Contras when he did it. It was a two birds with one stone deal smack around the USSR and establish a liberty beacon in a Latin America that looked like it was about to become the next group of Soviet satellite states.

            Then he did it again in Afghanistan. And in Grenada. And Panama. And while we didn’t invade militarily, we certainly played a key roll in Marcos leaving the Philippines. In short, I suspect the only reason Reagan wasn’t more aggressive with his foreign policy of spreading democracy to third world nations was because the USSR was there and doing so risked getting the whole world blown to smithereens. The left derided him as a war monger for building a 600 ship navy, improving our nuclear missile fleets, and starting on SDI, but because of his prior dealings with socialist thugs in the American Screen Actors Guild, he knew strength was the only thing they respected.

          • aesthete

            in the Philippines: though in retrospect it proved to be a good decision, Reagan’s reticence to abandon an established ally was understandable. We did not engage in nation building in any of those examples that you listed: mostly we just handed rebels guns and let them duke it out (pretty much the opposite of nation-building). In Grenada, we invaded and restored the government to what it was a mere four years before: again, no long occupation while we fiddled with cultural or political formation.

          • The_Gadfly

            the USSR being willing to blow all of us to smithereens if we got too uppitty. It also overlooks the fact that in some of those places there were republican roots that just needed an opportunity to sprout again.

            I don’t think a true conservative shirks from nation building when necessary. I do think that he recognizes the great, great difficulty in accomplishing the act, and therefore tries all other courses of action with a reasonable chance of success before engaging in that endeavor.

          • aesthete

            I believe that it is this which separates modern conservative thought from neo-conservative thought on foreign policy: neo-cons tend to be extremely optimistic about the power of democratic institutions. Remember how we were supposed to “win” in Iraq in 6-9 months? Remember how we were supposed to get a democratic, functioning state in Afghanistan after a spell? Remember how democracy for Palestinians were supposed to moderate and self-police after they were given democratic institutions? IMO, some neo-con ideas vis a vis the power of democracy are good in moderation, but should be viewed with much more skepticism than they are currently (particularly when it comes to the power of our military to effect such change). Should we decide to invade Iran, we should be prepared for the mother of all occupations, not ticker tape parades, barbecues, and mini-skirts.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • jamesmackey

            The idea that Reagan would have launched wars of occupation in the Middle East is laughable. Laughable.

            Reagan’s Wisdom on the Middle East. Leave!!!

            http://orangepunch.ocregister.com/2006/07/21/reagans-wisdom-on-the-middle-east-leave/619/

          • streiff

            just curious, because Iraq isn’t a war of occupation.

            Reagan was also in a bi-polar world. The entire Middle East was either our allies or allied with the USSR. So your point is goofy.

          • jamesmackey

            Back before the Bush Jr and the NeoCons this is how conservatives felt about Iraq

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfQG0I9eTWk

            My point is hardly goofy as you call it. It’s dealing in reality. Not utopian NeoConism.

          • streiff

            you probably shouldn’t be using it in a sentence.

            Your video simply underscores your ignorance. The idea was that sanctions would do peacefully what we did militarily in 2003.

            Now, as a price of continued participation here I want you to explain how Iraq is a war of occupation.

          • jamesmackey

            Was no threat to the United States. None. Zero. As far as Arab dictators go, Saddam Hussein was a liberal. Women had more rights under his regime than they did anywhere else in the region. Christians were protected. His most trusted adviser Tariq Aziz is a Chaldean Catholic. Yes he was a brutal dictator, but he was a secularist. He kept the Islamic fundamentalist under control.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Catholic_Church

            Now Christians are being driven out of Iraq.

            As Paul Wolfowitz fully admits, after 9/11 the Neocons pushed to invade Iraq even though it had nothing to do with the World Trade Center disaster on 9/11.

            Utopianism. The transformation of the Middle East into liberal Democrcacies through the barrel of a gun. Big government nation building. Central planning.

          • streiff

            none of that is even vaguely related to your odious characterization of the war in Iraq as a war of occupation.

            Look it’s Friday and I’m really tired of your particular brand of stupidity and dishonesty. You were given a chance to explain a patently untrue statement… or hopefully revise and extend your remarks to the extent that you admitted you were wrong. But you couldn’t be bothered. Down thread you call social conseravatives Nanny Staters. So your’re through here.

          • Bill S
          • Spiral

            Abdul Rahman Yasin was the al Qaeda operative who federal prosecutors indicted for mixing the chemicals for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, killing six, and injuring 1,042.

            He was an Iraqi. Therefore, when the explosion took place, and he fled the United States, he went back to Iraq. Saddam Hussain’s Iraq didn’t cooperate in turning him over and gave him sanctuary.

            An ABC News crew found Abdul Rahman Yasim working a government job in Iraq in 1997, and documents captured in 2003 revealed that the bomber had been on Saddam’s payroll for years.

          • Spiral

            Nevermind that he used weapons of mass destruction against his own population, the Kurds.

            And he constantly fired on US and British planes.

          • aesthete

            Arguing who gets to be king of Minas Tirith for the nth time during its siege is getting old.

      • runner12

        confirmed what I had already supposed GoProud’s agenda to be. Based on this info, I am in agreement with you and I don’t think they should have a seat at the table of CPAC.
        It is one thing to adhere to a particular view and quite another to go out and attack other Conservatives because they do not agree with you. These are Leftists tactics and are divisive to our cause.

      • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

        Keep fighting the good fight. GOProud should not be allowed to come across as a helpless victim when they are the agressor.

      • sharp

        In response to Melissa’s statement, “They have every right to try and convince people of their ideas.” – it appears to me that the libertarians did not come to convince, but to take over.

        Unfortunately, David Keene, who was once a standard barrier of conservative discussions, has become nothing more than an emcee – anyone can say anything – followed by polite appluase.

        If CPAC wants to be relevant again to us “3-circle conservatives” – it needs to re-establish a few standards.

        Plus, it seems that CPAC has lost the older generations.

        For all the great speakers on the program, it is too bad for them since many of us Reagan conservatives will not be paying attention.

        • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

          We have no need for a right wing Davos. Public circle-jerks are poor decurum. Ignore CPAC.

        • Scope
    • chihank

      Libertarians of the Ron Paul Variety, are no difference than Daily Kos anti-war types. They blame so-called NeoCons for problems in the Middle East (i.e Israel, Egypt, and Iraq).

      • JSobieski

        If Ron Paul wants to talk about low taxes, he should invited.

        If he wants to talk about foreign policy blow back, he should be given the boot.

        Most libertarians are not the Ron Paul variety. Many independent swing voters have at significant libertarian leanings (see Tea Party).

        • jamesmackey

          Is a fact. Our CIA has been telling every President this for years. Deal with NeoCons

          • aesthete

            in a formula with many variables. It’s a useful idea that conservatives should acknowledge, but not one that should be elevated to being the only relevant factor in insurgency and foreign policy. Ron Paul is rather monomaniacal on the subject, and one of the worst tutors possible for teaching this concept (which, while elemental, is nonetheless important).

          • jamesmackey

            Well who is a good tutor? Look at what’s happening in Egypt right now. The people on the street hate the United States. This will not turn out good for us. Blowback

      • e_rowe

        They disappeared when a Democrat became president and suddenly his execution of a belligerent foreign policy didn’t seem like such a bad thing. The left’s opposition to Bush and all he did never had anything to do with ideology and everything to do with the R after his name. It didn’t matter that his approach to Iraq was following in the footsteps of all the presidents they idolize. It mattered that it was Bush doing it and not one of their guys.

        With the Ron Paul conservatives it’s different. Their opposition to both domestic and foreign central planning is a consistent, coherent, ideology. It’s one that constitutionalists and advocates of free market economics alike have generally stood for against progressives who wanted to manage the globe. The proto-type of the Ron Paul conservatives isn’t the whimsical hippy of the left, it’s the Old Right conservative like Robert Taft, Albert J. Nock, et al.

    • aesthete
      • http://www.coloradans4palin.com bjwilson83

        It’s not like they have problems with accidentally getting pregnant.

      • hoosierteacher

        http://www.gaypatriot.net/2005/11/16/breaking-news-log-cabin-loses-political-director-to-planned-parenthood/

        Read it and weep.

  • sailingaway

    Good ideas rise to the top. If ideas have merit, you don’t need to exclude anyone.

    In any event, didn’t Goldwater Republicans (more apt a likeness to the bulk of Ron Paul supporters than big L libertarians) pretty much start CPAC? Ron Paul is pro life and pro US sovereignity. Many neoconservatives are willing that US sovereignity should be under the World Bank, UN and other international organizations. Not so Ron Paul nor his son. Which of the other mushy middle candidates at CPAC stand up to that standard? Besides Ron’s son Rand, I mean.

    In recent years until last year the topics at CPAC weren’t really a draw to fiscal conservative paleocons in the Ron Paul tradition, so there were fewer there. The fare at CPAC has improved, so more people are coming, making those who used to dominate the crowd nervous. But that is just competition of ideas, the underpinning for our first amendment. Surely you are in favor of that?

  • unclefred

    He had won two terms by running as a “conservative democrat” in a district that had been heavily republican for a long time. In fact he was a complete closet liberal. A rather extreme one at that. He did most of his damage in committee where his votes were hidden. When ever the liberals did not need his vote on the house floor, they gave him a pass. Then the day came that his vote was needed on a very visible piece of legislation. One that he had repeatedly promised his district he would oppose. There was a lot of very heavy pressure on him to vote no. It was a BIG deal in his district. When the vote came, like a good liberal puppet he was the yes vote that passed the bill.

    Grass root opposition to his reelection exploded like a wild fire. I had never worked for or against a candidate. I followed politics, but did not get involved in the process. I looked at myself in the mirror and asked myself what “I” was going to do about it. I started looking for a way to oust my congressman.

    I ended up working with a dozen or so others, all but two were also first timers, to defeat him. It was an odd amalgam of all the various sub-groups of conservatism that you list. All of them.

    When we started we all agreed that for THAT election cycle we would ignore our differences and work to dump the guy who’d lied to us and the rest of our district. It was not easy for all of us to get along. There were a number of heated discussions about the very differences that we’d agreed to set aside. Passionate beliefs are not easily ignored.

    We did not fly apart. We did a lot of heavy lifting. We educated his district about his true record. He lost by about 6%. Given he’d won his previous term by over 20% it was a resounding defeat.

    I appreciate the many questions raised by this post. I even agree with many of its points. This election cycle, I think that we need to invite all these various conservative factions to CPAC. I think we need to engage in those passionate discussions about our differences and them hammer out our common ground and goals for 2012.

    Then I think we need to set aside our differences and get about saving our nation from the travesty that it has endured since 2008. I realize that this won’t sit well some or be easy for any of us. I assure you that I won’t enjoy parts of it either. We have a nation to save and literally one election cycle to save it. For me that is more important this time around.

    • Finrod

      Or, to quote Benjamin Franklin: “Gentlemen, if we do not all hang together, we will most certainly hang separately.”

    • rec0n

      ‘Misery aquaints a man with strange bedfellows’. We have one common goal, Republicans, Palinistas, Cons, Libertarians and GOProud. Rather than beating our differences into the ground it would behoove us to focus on that goal and achieve it. The last thing I want to see at this juncture in time is splintering. It frankly scares the hell out of me. And not simply in the case of GOProud and CPAC, either.

      You know how I would choose to label Reagan? As a pragmatist. He never lost sight of his Conservative ideals, but he adapted the mechanics of implementation to the situation at hand – because he had to. I don’t agree with every pillar of every platform from several of those groups, but if pulling together achieves the goal of replacing Obama and many in the Senate w/Cons…I’m all in.

      Why is it necessary to agree on every single point before uniting against a common cause? I don’t see alliances as implied consent in that way. Is a more honest relationship out of the question? We can work together here, but not *here*? Or does that negate the alliance? I don’t think that GOProud at CPAC is intrinsic to success, but all the battle lines being drawn outlining our differences could be.

  • california_red

    to push for Federal legislation on marriage or abortion. A true conservative would recognize that these are state issues and that the Federal government has no business legislating in these areas.

    When “conservatives” abandon states rights and 10th amendment principles because it suits their worldview, I see them as no better than those that read the right to abortion into the constitution.

    Maybe instead of worrying about GOProud and Libertarians, CPAC should work on making sure elected repreesentatives reduce the size of government and the fiscal irresponsibility that stiill dominates the so called ‘conservative” republican party. For without fiscal conservatism, I have no desire to even get into the tent you are contemplating banning me from.

    • runner12

      Your arguments apply to groups like GoProud as well. They have zero interest in states rights in these issues. They seek to use the power of the bench to enforce their viewpoints on the nation as a whole. Good grief, in your own state there are militant gay groups trying to overturn the will of the people on Prop 8 through the courts. They could care less about “states rights.”

      Also, the new brand of conservatism is all about including fiscal conservatism. In fact, I think it is one the key tenents of the grass roots movement. I would argue that in order to be a true conservative you must be fiscally conservative and for limited government. I personally believe in social conservatism, fiscal conservatism, and limited government. They are all equally important to me.

    • The_Gadfly

      Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

      Any state wishing to dispense with the traditional definition of marriage in effect enforces that dispensement on all other states and therefore Congress has the ability to protect the other states from that action.

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    The problem is not that GOProud attends the CPAC event. The problem is that GOProud has been allowed to become a full-fledge sponsor of the event and used its podium to attack social conservatives. I posted links to those actions at the last CPAC yesterday and would be glad to do so again.

    Cloutheir also states that GOProud is firmly in two wings of the conservative movement. This is only true if you consider the repeal of DADT and the forced integration of gays into the U.S. military as having no potentional affect upon a strong U.S. foreign policy. GOProud supports both objectives. The last I checked, the U.S. Marines disagreed.

    Would CPAC allow a pro-gun control organization to cosponsor their event? According to the reasoning by Cloutheir, they should have no reason not to as long as some elements of conservativism exists in their ideology.

    Social conservatives are not boycotting the event. Many are simply not choosing to attend because the event has shifted to libertarians and socially liberal groups like GOProud. If CPAC wishes to move in that direction, they should accept the inevitiable decline of their conference.

    What about Grover Norquist and the inclusion of the Muslim Brotherhood at CPAC? Should the Mulsim Brotherhood be given a position at the table? Their representatives have spoken there before and Norquist has allowed them a position at his conservative table.

    • Scope

      problem solved at CPAC

      • JSobieski
      • lineholder
      • Finrod

        Two can play your silly game.

        • Scope
          • aesthete
          • Scope

            in this context, replying to this thread, that is a slam against Christians. You did promise that “you ain’t seen nothing yet” and you are not disappointing. Like I said, if you have such big problems with Christians, and/or conservatives, why not go on over to the party you do support, the Libertarian party. Are you here for nothing more than to follow the Ron Paul initiative to “take over the Republican party” and change them into what you want them to be. Hey, it’s a two party country, as the libertarians said, like it or not. So the libertarians can’t get more than a fraction of a percent in elections, so let’s infiltrate the Republican party. After all, I don’t think George Soros would back your party positions, but then again…..

  • http://teapartisan.wordpress.com Socrates

    I think the ACU is using CPAC to redefine conservatism. I also think CPAC should be a place to agree, not to disagree.

    Your post, Melissa, does a very good job of defining the conventional wisdom in a clear way.

    But GOProud, pro-choice, or peacenik groups define themselves by their feature that is not conservative. The thing that sets them apart is not a conservative ideal. So their inclusion in CPAC represents an attempt to change the definition of conservatism in some way.

    There is also a need for people who hold non-conservative views who go to a conference labeled “conservative” to keep their non-conservative views to themselves.

    Shaking your little fists and insisting that everyone value your preciousss perspective is not only not conservative, it’s quintessentially liberal.

    • acat

      if I dare say anything like “mute button” or “truce” you’re allowed to come at me hammer and tongs?

      Sure. Pull the other one.

      Mew

      • http://teapartisan.wordpress.com Socrates

        Sorry for not including that as a preface.

        For instance, I’m against the War on Drugs. I’m not sure how exactly I’d change things in that regard, but I know that forfeiture statutes are abhorrent and unconstitutional.

        But I know that I should not go to CPAC and tell everyone else that it’s conservative to be for drug legalization.

        So try rereading the OP with that in mind. I’m sure we still disagree, but you can take the … hostility, for lack of a better word, out of it.

        • acat

          where we can agree to disagree on the 20% while working on the 80%.

          Mew

          • YnotNOW

            and not the 20%

        • Finrod

          Or to be precise: my view about drug laws is that they’re as unconstitutional as Obamacare is. The Eighteenth Amendment is proof of that; it took a constitutional amendment to give Congress the power to ban alcohol, it should take no less to give Congress the power to ban other drugs.

          In my view, conservatives that want to keep drugs illegal should be pushing for a constitutional amendment to give Congress the power to ban them. Otherwise we’re ignoring the Constitution for our own ends just like Obama is with Obamacare.

          But now I’ve strayed quite a distance offtopic, so I’ll stop here now.

          • acat

            because it’s fine for the States to regulate drugs however they like, eh?

            Mew

  • http://www.timelyrenewed.com timelyrenewed

    I would hope that there is one common ground that conservatives can all agree on “conserving” — the Constitution. Everyone one of the legs has its strong and weak points constitutionally. For example:

    Libertarians remind us that the Constitution provides for a much more limited federal government. However, libertarians too often press beyond the original meaning of the 14th amendment (no governmental race discrimination) to unacceptably achieve social issues like court-mandated gay marriage.

    Neocons remind us that national defense is actually one of the legitimate federal responsibilities under the Constitution and that danger does not end at our ocean shores. However, they too often abet the unconstitutional expansion of executive power to achieve their national security aims.

    Social conservatives remind us that social issues are in the states’ domain and not the federal government’s. However, too often their zeal to press their ultimate moral claims obscures the constitutional federalism argument which could carry even those who are ambivalent about the moral views, and which would serve the interests of all conservatives who are trying to cut back the federal government.

    I am not saying that there are not significant policy differences between the different flavors of conservatives. Rather I am urging that the common enemy of overweening federal government should be the priority now and that restoring our original constitutional government is a platform which will advance many conservatives’ goals without fundamentally undermining any of their principles. After we have restored some semblance of constitutional government is when we can turn to sorting out (mostly at the state level) some of our remaining differences. See http://www.timelyrenewed.com

    • aesthete
    • Finrod

      .

    • concap

      Hay! nice web site

  • lexington_concord

    I was getting tired of the hundreds or emails and articles advocating for libertarians to be banned from CPAC and now I have a handy resource to answer all those people. People like, um…. hmm.

  • whiskey_sierra

    Take Gay Marriage as a Social Conservative topic.

    The real solution to gay marriage is to get the government out of MARRIAGE totally and make it a personal/religious thing ONLY.

    The ‘governmental’ crap could all be handled with a simple type of power of attorney contract between spouses.

    Why do people insist on using the FORCE OF GOVERNMENT to make others believe what they want them to believe and then pretend they are fore ‘individual liberty’.

    I just think many conservatives just don’t know what liberty really is.

    The same POWER that social conservatives give to the government to take away personal liberty to further their social engineering is the SAME power that the left uses to further their social engineering…..and BOTH OF YOU are taking AWAY personal liberty and freedom.

    Social conservatives would not know what liberty is if it bit them in the backside. Get THEM out of politics.

    • streiff

      other than being blindingly dismissive of 5000 years of human history.

      What you are describing is not liberty but license. There is a different. Look it up.

      • acat

        They are not at all the same thing, never were, never could be…. and yet because of the mental shorthand of saying just “marriage” to mean both cases, we’re wasting a lot of energy defending the latter using the former as justification.

        While I do think Whiskey_Sierra could have phrased it a bit less abruptly, he does have a point – there is a Conservatve (not SoCon…) rationale for removing government from a religious sacrament.

        This, by the way, completely ignores the number of “fake” marriages involving a man and a woman – the serial-monogomy or “hidden” affairs or various forms of spousal abuse…

        Mew

        • streiff

          and anyone with the vaguest grounding in Western Civ understands that. The separation of God and government is a conceit we’ve invented in the past 40 years and it hasn’t been beneficial.

          I’m not going to argue with you on this because it makes no sense to argue with someone who will just make things up to win.

          • acat

            Good to know where I stand.

            My point was that, yes, for 5000 years, marriage has been a stabilizer – some (including GC) argue *the* stabilizer that allows civilizations to exist.

            It was not recognized by government – that is *regulated* by government – until much later .. and the Americans inherited that from the Brits, who had their own work-arounds to divorce-and-remarriage. (Henry VIII comes to mind)

            Going back to the colonies, the definition wasn’t universally “one man one woman” – Oneida certainly had some different ideas. Consider also the experience of the Mormons back a century or so ago – when their definition was forcibly changed by the federal government.

            Now, how should I take your statement that I’ll “make stuff up” ? I could consider it a preemptive accusation of lying… but that would be in violation of the new tone.

            Mew

          • YnotNOW

            until you repeal the personal income tax. Jointly owned property, joint income, joint deductions, etc.
            as in “not going to happen…”

          • acat

            that the word “marriage” is used in all kinds of non-Federal (i.e. state, county, local) laws as well.

            And as for repealing the income tax, you’re right .. I should talk to the FairTax people and see if they’d like to join me since we agree that the income tax needs to be repealed.

            Mew

    • Bill S

      because I would have just banned you. So now I’m not going to override another moderator…yet.

      If all libertarians were like you, I WOULD ask for them to be banned from CPAC. Fortunately, they’re not. There are actually some quite pleasant, level-headed ones here on RS that I interact with (you know who you are…). You, on the other hand….

    • lineholder

      And what hole have you been hiding in lately? The SoCon emphasis is drastically changing right now. There are plenty of us out here who are small-government SoCons, not big-government SoCons.

      What is more, we probably have just as much respect for liberty and freedom as any other “category”, if not more, because we value life itself a lot more than some of those categories do.

      We couldn’t care less about POWER and the evil enticements that it brings, much less to put ourselves in positions of power that could be misused or abused for the sake of oppressing other people.

      If you think that’s who we are, you are WRONG. That’s all there is to it. It doesn’t matter whether or like us or not, but we’re here to stay.

      • Scope

        and let me tell you all about moral relativism.

        • acat

          You are repeatedly confusing libertarianism with hedonism. It’s just not so.

          I don’t go around telling others what it means to be a christian – please don’t go around telling folk what it means to be a libertarian.

          Mew

          • Doc Holliday

            but arguing this with her is just beating your head against a wall. Then again, a lie uncontested becomes a truth to many, so Godspeed. I did my part for a long time, I am done with it.

          • aesthete

            as right-libertarian ombudsman to someone else, too: way too much work to respond to misconceptions of libertarianism.

          • Doc Holliday

            but I can’t in all honesty recommend you stay on, It wears one down pretty fast.

          • aesthete

            Yeah, I’m thinking about staying away from the 2012/libertarian vs socon threads for a bit, or at least commenting less on them: it’s always the same stuff, and comes with a fair dollop of vitriol.

          • Aaron Gardner

            See you soon. ;)

          • aesthete

            How you doing, Aaron?

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • aesthete

            but everyone knows that you’re just a reformed Communist Democrat neo-con who would nuke Mecca if given the chance. Totally different from warmongering jingoist, don’t you know.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            the better off the world is! And actually, I only had the nuke Mecca attitude when I was a Democrat!

          • aesthete
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • Doc Holliday

            Cradle Republican that wants to play internet poker and smoke a fatty.

          • aesthete

            and would like to see grandmothers around the United States eat cat food out of want, don’t you?! Confess!! :)

          • Doc Holliday

            only the union grandmothers only the union ones. :)

          • acat

            with complete sentences and stuff… and whose account isn’t broken… were to write a good, comprehensive statement of how libertarianism relates to conservatism, we could just automate the whole thing…

            Mew

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • acat

            It’s much more efficient to solve a problem permanently than to keep re-solving it over and over and over…

            Mew

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            a few days ago to shame him into writing more than 3 paragraphs but still there were no footnotes!

            seriously fellow smart guys, it is hard work to write a column …more later

            esp with thetes, cats and skis to test you

          • Doc Holliday

            actually maybe like 3 years, in the archives, i have really been phoning it is for a while now.

            Ok, technically they were not diaries but they were long, with big words and stuff.

            speaking for myself

            1) i just don’t care anymore
            2) see 1) or is that sea?

          • Doc Holliday

            it could be like how kos kidz post recipes diaries they don’t like. Let’s pick a good diary, and just post it every time big gov sononcons spill their nonsense. But it would be better if there were a program that could pick right posts to respond too. If we actually had to cut and paste it would be just like responding and banging your head against the wall.

            Some say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Well, arguing with certain big gov types here fits that to a tee.

          • aesthete

            Post a recipe for a good meal in response to repetitive threads. Hey, at least RS readers would get a nice recipe out of threads that careen out of control, no?

          • Doc Holliday

            but let’s make it a libertarian thing. Real recipe, but with some ganga added?

            I am just tired of trying to explain to certain people why the sky looks blue, after a few hundred times, it just gets old. Notice I said “looks blue” you science nerds.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • Doc Holliday

            we should have the most monotone, boring, and clear message of why libertarian-conservatism wins, why we are the heirs to Reagan and Goldwater, and why Big Government Compassionate Conservatism failed and it took the American people to bring the party back from the ashes.

          • aesthete

            if they happened to be allergic to quality Puerto Rican cuisine, heh. Wouldn’t mind getting some good grilling tips out of it, either.

          • Doc Holliday

            the Doc can grill Texas style. I would be open to learning about Puerto Rican cuisine. BTW, I am glad you spoke of our brother as Jsob and not that bastardization of a nickname “ski” that GC keeps pushing.

            I know you know I am messing with you GC, but here is the requisite disclaimer: I am just joking with you. :)

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • gekster

            Grandpas stoplight Chili recipi

            ingreadiants;
            2 lbs ground or cubed meat. What ever meat you like.
            Beef, pork, venison, buffallo.
            1 cup each, red, yellow, and green bell peppers.(hence, stoplight)
            1 cup chopped celery.
            1 cup chopped onoin, white, red, yellow, those purple ones, doesn’t
            matter.
            2 packs chili seasoning mix, your favorite brand.(I use McCormick@)
            1 12 oz. can tomato paste.
            2 cans diced tomatos with the juice, (or two to three cups diced garden
            tomatoes with 1 cup water).
            3 to 4 to 5 cans kidney beans, dark or light or mixed. (you can also
            use cooked pinto beans if you don’t care about Global Warming).
            2 or 3 cloves garlic or 1 teaspoon garlic powder.
            (I don’t cook with salt or pepper, but season to taste if you like).

            In a lightly oiled pan, start to brown the onion and garlic.
            Put in the groung beef or meat and cook. Drain the grease after the
            meat is cooked.
            Here you can drain all, half, or none, you are the cook.

            In a large cooking pot, mix the paste with 4 cans water for thick, or
            five cans if wanting a thinner chili.
            Mix the chili mix with one cup water per pack and add to pot.
            Add the meat and celery and bring to a standing boil.
            (when you stir it up and it keeps boiling, that is a standing boil).
            Then add the peppers and diced tomatoes and then bring to a standing
            boil again.
            Put the temp on low, (1/4 to 1/8 heat, ( just enough to keep a low or
            soft boil with lid on) put on a lid and let simmer for half an hour.
            During this half-hour, let the beans drain in a colander.
            This is so the bean taste doesn’t overwhelm the chili.
            After a half hour, put in the beans, bring to a standing boil once
            again, lower the temp, replace the lid and let it simmer for another
            half-hour.
            Turn it off, remove from heat, and let it stand for about ten to
            fifteen minutes.
            If you want to add hot peppers, add whenever you like, fromm when you
            do the onions and garlic, to when you let it steep, or when served.
            (I add 1/8 cup jalapeno juice when putting in the meat).

            This does make alot, so have a big enough pot.
            (Devide ingredients in half for less, obviously).

            When served, if you want, top with fritos and/or shredded cheese, any
            kind. Taco sprinkle cheese is great.
            The grandkids love it.

            note: make sure to stir often so the tomatoe paste wont stick to the
            bottom and burn.
            If the kids don’t like onions, cut them big so they can pick them out.
            Enjoy

          • aesthete

            I’m gonna have to give that a shot. I’ll let you know how it turns out.

          • gekster

            just to make sure to take the seeds out of the bell peppers.
            I forgot to mention that. :)

          • acat
          • acat
          • e_rowe

            So Scope is a woman?

            All of a sudden my previous run-ins with her make a lot more sense now.

            Thanks.

          • Scope

            in addition to being an idiot. Good to know.

        • lineholder

          As a SoCon, I definitely see things from a very different viewpoint than a Libertarian might, but I wouldn’t say that this means that they are without conscience.

          Then again, when it gets into matters of the conscience, as a Christian, I do tend to look at that as a private matter between the individual and God alone. No efforts on my part to try to “strike” someone else’s conscience would be sufficient. That’s God’s area of expertise, not mine.

          As to the point of moral relativism, yeah, I pick up on it plenty of times and it does disturb me at times, but I don’t see situational ethics versus moral absolutes of right and wrong as being an issue that is limited to any one category of people.

          • lineholder

            are without conscience, I’d be inclined to agree with that because it is exhibited day in and day out in their actions.

          • acat

            that the similarity between liberal and libertarian has been a cause of confusion on Red State.

            Won’t be the last.

            Mew

          • lineholder

            I did have the attitude that libertarians were “amoral” and that they deeply resented traditional values because they saw it as imposing on their liberties.

            But I’ve come to realize over time that it isn’t always true and it isn’t always the wisest thing to do to paint people into groups with such a broad brush.

            I really don’t have any way of knowing what exactly exists on the inside of another’s being heart and mind all the time any more than they can know exactly what is going on in mine.

            I’m as staunch as they come in my beliefs, which means that I’m not much inclined to want to compromise the moral standards by which I live my own life, and I daresay that there are plenty of times when comments I make rub people the wrong way.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • lineholder

            Don’t know what I did to deserve that…but I hope I figure it out so I can do it again sometime.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
    • runner12

      rude and offensive, it was also full of inaccurate statements regarding social conservatives. I will not attack you, but I will argue your “points” logically.

      First of all, all of the big government intervention on social issues has come from the Left, not the right. Let us go through the list, shall we?

      Roe vs. Wade (morally repugnant and a huge overreach of the Fed. Government)= Left

      Repeal of DADT against military advice = Left

      Using courts to overturn the will of the people in CA re: gay marriage = Left

      Need I go on? Listen, we “so-cons” are on defense on these issues, not offense. Marriage amendments would not be necessary if the Left was not trying to force everyone to see things their way. In other words, the Left should have left things well alone. But that is not their way. They seek to force everyone to be in lock-step with them, even if they use the government to do so.

  • macheteman

    You need to get off this mis-identification. Since when does Marriage fundamentally have anything to do with being Libertarian? If you stand from the wrong hill, you won’t see the right valley.

    Please get off mixing these concepts. They are fundamentally incompatible and are a disservice to your readers.

    • aesthete

      there are many libertarians out there who have made common cause with the pro-gay marriage folk out of a mistaken notion of equality.

      That said, most libertarian philosophy on the matter would agree that marriage is not something that government should be responsible for.

  • Scope

    http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/

    Those that pick and choose only a sentence or two from the platform to adopt/abide by should not be a part of CPAC, period. Otherwise why even bother having a platform if anything goes.

    • acat

      Surely some of those planks were written by RINOs or squishes…

      This argument ends up saying that the GOP gets to define what is “conservatism”, and I surely hope that’s not where you’re going…. CPAC is not the GOP.

      Now, I would argue that only those who sign on to all the planks should be able to get on a ballot as a Republican, but that’s another debate.

      Mew

    • e_rowe

      We learned from 2000-2008 that the GOP is not as close a friend of conservatism as some thought. So I wouldn’t think that that group’s ideas should be used as the litmus test. Conservative’s aim should be to reform the GOP, not to emulate it, cheer it on, and feed its weaknesses.

      That said, to the degree that the GOP platform is conservative (and, granted, the platform is more conservative than the party establishment is), it’s still not the case that groups that focus on one element of the platform and not all elements should be excluded. Groups like Gun Owners of America, the National Right to Life Committee, and the Club for Growth have their own focus that fits into a broader conservative platform. Their missions neither specifically advance nor specifically detract from other aspects of that platform. But the things they do do are all (or almost all) conservative things. Therefore, they should not be banned.

      If a group is to be banned on ideological grounds, it can’t be simply because its focus is too narrow, but only because it actively attacks conservatism. You could certainly make the case that some pro-gay groups do that (although I don’t know the details about GOProud), and clearly certain neoconservative groups do that, and if there exist any “compassionate conservative” groups along the lines of a Mike Huckabee type, then they do that. But a group like Campaign for Liberty, for example, does not.

  • Doc Holliday

    You keep using the capitalized “Libertarian” when you are really discussing libertarian-conservatives. You do this on purpose, that way you can tar libertarian-conservatives with the most extreme positions of Libertarians. And if your title made any sense, it would be just as valid to front page a title saying “Should Democrats and Communists be allowed to attend CPAC”?

    We all know you are really talking about libertarian-conservatives. You are talking about the heirs to Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan. You are talking about the majority of the Tea Party, that group focuses most clearly on the Constitution and reducing federal power. If the Tea Party was really this Socon group you claim them to be, there would be no need for a Tea Party. They could have just joined the Christian Coalition or some other fading political power.

    The majority of the top conservative talk show hosts are self described libertarian-conservatives. The majority of the top read conservatives writers are self-described libertarian-conservatives. The driving force in the most recent elections was libertarian – conservatives. Maybe Socons were the majority, but not the driving force. Big gov false socons were the driving force behind 2006, I will give you that.

    btw, as a self described libertarian-conservative, don’t say I support abortion, non-intervention, or Ron Paul. In fact, why don’t you let the large percentage of libertarian-conservatives at this site speak for THEMSELVES! m’kay?

    • Doc Holliday

      my response was to the first one. The second diary makes some sense. I guess whoever runs CPAC can decided who gets to attend.

    • lineholder

      there are plenty of us out here who are small gov’t SoCons. In fact, the truth being told, more and more SoCons are moving in this direction everyday because of the way that our government misuses public funds and abuses public trust.

      Don’t forget that we’re on your side where the “small government” part of your goals are concerned.

      And yeah, I’d rather people just let us speak for ourselves. This whole idea that any one group has priority over the other when we all have our part to play in defeating a common enemy of socialism is getting really old.

      • Doc Holliday

        I would call myself a small government social conservative as well. I believe people should make moral decisions and government force makes that an impossibility.

        Also, there are many historical examples of the strongest religious believers wanting the government out of their business.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • silentcal2012

            .

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • silentcal2012

            But its too bad the Baptists didn’t listen to Roger Williams when they got behind Huey Long, WJ Bryan, W. Wilson, FDR, JFK, LBJ, J Carter…

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            you make a great point re baptists and the south re big govt on economics under dems

            Most who bring this subject up make false (imho) claims re the religious right and separation since the 80s, whereas via your paradigm, baptists have moved well to the right and are fi-cons since the 80s thru today.

            This is my overall point to the militant libertarians that see demons that don’t exist. I was lib dem activist and official for 18 years starting at age 18 and watched baptists become repubs, first due to economics and nat sec and then over life/marriage.

          • silentcal2012

            Wasnt commenting at length about anything. I just didnt think Baptist are any more responsible for our inheritance of restrained government than other denomination.

            I agree that some see demons where they dont exist. There is an unecessary divide between “socons” and libertarians that I think is bogus too, although I think certain wings of Southern socons come across abnormaly harsh towards Mormons, Catholics and agnostics when they dont need to. If we share the same values, denomination shouldnt matter in politics.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            government control in any way of churches, opposing religious tests etc.

            Many were more prominent in the overall category that you describe as “restrained government”. But on the separation of church and state, they were paramount and much different on this matter than many of the other christian sects in the 18th and 19th cs.

          • Doc Holliday

            they even sailed an ocean over it.

  • cactusjack

    bears recalling that an important part of his electoral success in 1980 and 1984 – including that stunning never to be repeated in our liftetimes, 49 state electoral college blowout in 1984 – which the liberals hate – hate – to be reminded of* – was that he found a way to bring the Libertarians along with the Republican party in those two elections.

    *try it on a liberal today (“What you mean Reagan actually carried California New York and Massachusetts in 1984? No way!”)

    • Scope

      because he was a leader who persuaded others to accept HIS philosophy, he didn’t compromise his beliefs and accept others philosophies. Any were welcome under his tent, as long as you accepted his agenda, which had something for everyone to like. Reagan today would say to GOProud, you are welcome at CPAC, but you will have no voice their to expound on your agenda, and don’t bother sending me or the Congress letters asking me or the members of Congress to “not go down the rabbit hole of social issues.” Reagan would never have signed the repeal of DADT. Reagan would never have signed the START Treaty.

      Reagan said that Conservatism and Libertarianism are traveling the same path, and that with every political movement there are varying shades of gray. Reagan believed in the most individual freedom possible in an ORDERED SOCIETY. I believe that Reagan would consider the libertarians that are anti-war, anti-interventionist, and those that want to put SoCons on the back burner, to be the darker shade of gray.

      • gekster

        Reagan never compromised on his principles.
        And since they were burned in his heart and what he truly believed, they were always easy to state.

      • The_Gadfly

        Reagan would not have signed the START treaty The Big 0 is currently promoting.

        It was after all Reagan himself who negotiated the first START treaty to replace the abysmal SALT II treaty negotiated by The Big 0′s political forerunner Jimmy Carter.

  • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

    n/t

  • jamesmackey

    When it’s all said and done the Social Cons are big government Nanny Staters. Look at their favorite right now. Mike Huckster Huckabee.. Never met a tax he didn’t like. Then we have Bush Jr. Social cons still defend him today even though he was more LBJ than Reagan.

    • lineholder

      You are painting all SoCons with a broad brush when it isn’t even close to being the truth.

      I don’t know exactly what it is that you are hoping to accomplish by it, other than to be divisive, but I can promise you that comments like this aren’t going to turn us away. If anything is true, it will just make us that much more determined.

      • jamesmackey

        This thread is divisive. Talk about banning people from CPAC. But I’m right about big government.

        • Bill S

          Saying that Huckabee represents all social conservatives is like saying Benny Hinn represents all Christians. It’s absolute nonsense.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
    • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

      Support your claim with facts. Huckabee did not win the nomination last time. He did not even get the support of most social conservatives because social conservatives disagreed with his fiscal policies. Bush Jr. was likewise criticized by social conservatives – remember the Supreme Court nominee fiasco. You have a lot of grand allegations now provide the facts to back them up.

    • streiff

      we’re no more Nanny Staters than fiscal conservatives want to throw granny out on the street.

      You’re on very thin ice stud. You’re about one more stupid comment away from losing your right to participate in this private forum.

    • runner12

      First of all, I am a “so-con” and Huckabee makes me want to yak because he is such a fiscal squish. Also, I am very clear on what I did not agree with GW Bush on. You are living in the past my friend. The new conservative, the Tea Party conservative, is socially conservative, fiscally conservative, and for limited government. We are here to stay and won’t back down on any of these principles.

  • bobmontgomery

    …in part, to ‘promote the general welfare’. Now, without getting into a haggle over what the meaning of “is” is, the government that the Constitution created has an interest in certain societal arrangements that impinge on ‘the general welfare’. Including, for example, unspecified social issues which were to be left up to the states, including public health, public education, civil peace, et cetera. Now, for those of you who want the government to get out of you and your sister’s business, if you can find a preacher to marry you, we, the public, might be inconvenienced, by the result of your inbreeding, to the tune of public health, public education, and civil peace. Don’t even call this absurd. Don’t even try that tack. You people who want to come in here and try to persuade people to set aside not only their entire belief system, but the Constitutional precepts that were developed in concert and correlation with, and full cognizance of, their belief systems, and a system of codified laws and constitutional arrangements designed to protect them and their progeny and to promote their general welfare, need to quit pushing so hard, at least in these precincts. Theoretically, social values should be state issues and state constitutions should suffice, but when progressive collectivists began, a long, long time ago, commandeering the national government to force states to do things, like recognizing you and your sister’s marriage, traditionalists had to find someway to fight back. Thus DOMA. What you and your sister do in the privacy of your home is your business, but don’t try to force us to deal with it. We don’t believe in it and, frankly, we can’t afford it, for we are fiscal as well as social conservatives. Oh, and we don’t believe your sister should be in combat, either

    • Scope

      This country was founded on traditional social values. I would say during the sixties, the Liberals pumped up the volume on destroying those moral values, in order to dumb down the population, in order to make it easier for them to take complete control, as we are seeing now. One of my favorites- Make love not war. Many took that literally. They have been patient devils, who have been willing to work incrementally, until they have gained control of every institution in this country.

      Now, it feels that the conservatives are not only fighting off the destruction to society by the Liberals at the front of them, we have some that claim to be in our party, or on our side, that are now coming at us from the back, that are in every sense helping the Liberals destroy the very foundation that made us great.

      I keep asking the question of the libertarians, where do your freedoms end, and mine begin, or vice versa. I guess my freedom ends when others insist that I, and the very definition of conservatism, must now be open to non-traditional values and ethics. To now have a proven radical islamist on the Board of CPAC, and to be a speaker at the event, is a bridge to far. To not only allow gays to attend CPAC, but to be a sponsor, is a bridge to far.

      I guess conservatism now has taken on a whole new meaning, it is whatever you want it to be.

      • lineholder

        with the same things you’ve mentioned here, and I keep sensing that there are a lot of people, including some libertarians, who are genuinely afraid of the stand that social conservatives might take on social issues. Perhaps they have a right to that fear, given what has taken place in the past.

        But this particular generations of SoCons is moving in a totally new direction…an unprecedented direction for us in a lot of ways. We’re are social conservatives. We do appreciate traditional values, including the moral and ethical basis for those values. This hasn’t changed.

        But we couldn’t care less about use of government to try to impose those values on other people and neither do we want their moral standards or values imposed upon us. We want small government with limited powers, which translates into our commonality with fiscal conservatives. Heck, we could echo the libertarian’s “just leave us alone” every bit as loud as they could speak it themselves.

        I don’t know what it is going to take for various groups to break through the boundaries, recognize the transition that is genuinely taking place, and then start trying to find some ways to build trust and confidence between us.

        I just hope we find a way to do it before it is too late.

        • aesthete

          with people like Scope and jamesmackey running around informing us that libertarians/social conservatives are the devil himself.

          • Scope

            lumping me in with a libertarian. That’s about as far a stretch as you’ve ever come up with. There are some very pronounced similarities between the Paulite libertarians, and those libertarians that claim Paul is a wacko. Perhaps you should be correcting them on what your version of libertarianism is, and stop trying to correct those that are not libertarians at all.

            In fact aesthete, why don’t you do a diary on what shade/type of libertarian you are. Please do it in a manner that anyone can go back and read your comments in a way that they understand just what it is you are professing or supporting. Since I don’t know what libertarianism is, please educate me, with examples of where your freedom stops, and mine begins. It would be helpful.

          • JSobieski

            If being free of any conscience or restriction isn’t the foundation of evil (and ergo the devil) does anyone wish to present an alternative definition of evil?

            So when Reagan said that libertarianism was the heat of conservatism, what Reagan said according to Scope was that the “license to be free of any conscience” is the heart of conservatism?

            Sounds like Scope and Reagan had different thoughts on what libertarianism is about.

            If libertarianism is the heart of conservatism, libertarianism must be at least 51% good. Otherwise, conservatism is rotten to the core.

          • silentcal2012

            Labels are easily manipulates. Liberties as the pertain to conscience, psychology and cultural restraints are associated with libertines. Liberties as they pertain to government intrustions are associated with libertarians.

          • JSobieski

            You are arguing with the wrong person.

          • JSobieski

            Both dislike taxes
            Both dislike government spending
            Both typically have two arms and two legs

            Everything you say about Paulite libertarians and non-Paulite libertarians can also be said in comparing Conservatives and even Republicans to Paulite libertarians.

            Don’t like Obamacare, you must be a Paulite.

            Don’t like big government, you must be a Paulite.

            People who paint with broad brushes tend to make a mess.

          • Scope

            That is the typical rationalization that libertarians use. You don’t like Obamacare, you must be a libertarian. Wrong, that’s a false accusation, all conservatives don’t like Obamacare. The Libertarians don’t own that position. You don’t like big government, you must be a libertarian. Wrong again, most or all conservatives don’t like or want big government. The libertarians don’t own that position either.

            If anyone is painting with broad brushes, it is the Libertarians, who only adopt those portions of conservatism they agree with, and then sell themselves with their very narrow views on conservatism, but it sounds good. The only reason libertarians even have any voice at this time is because a far left radical is in charge in Washington. Where would the libertarians be if we were in a robust economy, which we have been in without their ideas.

          • JSobieski

            I wasn’t claiming that anyone owed anything.

            My point is that your unfair painting of libertarians mirrors the unfair painting of conservatives by the MSM.

        • JSobieski

          between libertarians and conservatives.

          Those fights should be fought at the state level. Both sides should want a non-interventionist court system. Issues like marriage, abortion, drugs, etc. should be state issues.

          In a government of limited and enumerated powers, the domestic disputes should be few and far between . . . if both sides live up to their principles.

          Either the Constitution means that we have a government of limited enumerated powers or it doesn’t? Both sides in this faux debate should say yes we do.

          The number of mushy unprincipled R’s who voted for Obama in 2008 far exceed the number of Libertarians out there, so why are people so fixated on what is a small part of the country?

          • JSobieski

            Its not like Ronald Reagan was saying at the heart of conservatism is anarchy? libertinism? disorder? immorality?

            Anyone using these 100% negative words re: libertarianism should understand that RR had a much less hostile view to the libertarians than they do.

          • JSobieski
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • Scope

            you told me, right here not long ago, that you are not a libertarian. Gee, that’s odd.

          • JSobieski

            Ronald Reagan “Libertarianism is the heart and sole of conservatism”
            Scope -”Libertarianism = absence of conscience”

            I pick Ronald Reagan.

            Do you even know who JSobieski is? The idea that someone would adopt the name Jan Sobieski and not be a social conservative is laughable.

          • lineholder

            And don’t get ticked off about this, please.

            I’ve been seeing this statement a lot, that “Reagan said libertarianism is the heart of conservatism.” Depending on the context of the situation, sometimes all it does is cut off honest debate rather than encourage it. That isn’t always true, but it has been quite a bit lately.

            It comes across….well, have you seen that picture of Obama with his nose in the air? That’s how it comes across, JSob.

            Rip into to me to your hearts content if you want to, but I’m giving you an honest impression.

          • aesthete

            to defend against charges made by people like Scope that libertarians are degenerates who have no business being involved in the Republican or conservative movement — but then, I’m biased. I don’t really have a problem with you or anyone who’s willing to give libertarians a fair hearing, but not adopt their views wholesale: that’s a lot of people, and libertarians don’t get far when they demand 100% adherence to their views. That said, I do think that the interaction between libertarians and conservatives, while severed from the Clinton Impeachment onwards, is a generally beneficial one that has resulted in positive idea exchange. Facilitating and continuing that relationship should, IMO, be something that conservatives and libertarians can both get behind, as we have similar goals and different talents/outlooks within our respective movements. Hey, if we could do it with “reformed” Trotskyites and social democrats, why not with a movement that is ideologically pre-disposed to preferring smaller government?

          • JSobieski

            If people want to call libertarians people without morals, I think those people should consider what Ronald Reagan had to say.

            Are they saying that Ronald Reagan had the heart and sole of a conscienceless man?

            Was Ronald Reagan an idiot?

            We should follow Ronald Reagan’s example. If quoting Ronald Reagan makes me a snob, then I am a snob.

          • Scope

            most libertarians do, you only quote the portion that you like or agree with with respect to Reagan. Here is what he said in full-

            REAGAN: If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals

          • bobmontgomery
          • JSobieski

            i.e. without a conscience?

            The context that you site does not equate with immorality, Nor does it equate with absence of conscience.

            HOW CAN THE HEART AND SOUL OF CONSERVATISM CONSIST OF AN ABSENCE OF CONSCIENCE?

            Can you answer that question?

          • JSobieski

            “libertarianism = absence of conscience”

      • JSobieski
    • aesthete

      This concept of the “general welfare” clause fails on originalist, textualist, and logical grounds.

      First, the textualist case. Here’s exactly what the general welfare clause says: “The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States”. Clearly, the sentence is saying that taxes may only be levied *for* “common Defense and general Welfare” of the US. First of all, this does not allow for *regulation* or *prohibition*, but only taxation (uniform taxation, at that). Secondly, the clause in its entirety is “common Defense and general Welfare of the United States”, meaning that the “general Welfare” specified is that of the polity of the US, and that taxes are thus justified generally for the integrity (“welfare”) of the United States *as a polity*, in much the same way that “common Defense” was meant to be used, not for individuals populating the US.

      Next, the originalist case: the Federalist Papers should definitively put to rest the idea that this clause was meant to give federal government a broad grant of power. Federalist #41 (author: James Madison) lays out the matter in specific and laborious detail, and is worth reading in its entirety, but here’s the money quote:

      “It has been urged and echoed, that the power “to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,” amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms “to raise money for the general welfare.”

      Finally, for the knockout blow, the logical case: if the “general welfare” clause is as expansive as you claim, then there was no need for a list of enumerated and specific powers of government, as the “general welfare” clause would encompass all of those powers, and more besides. It is patently absurd to imagine states already reticent about centralization giving the government an unspecific and expansive power over them under the vague pretext of “general welfare”. The 9th and 10th Ams bound government to the powers outlined in the Constitution, and added or subtracted through the amendment process.

      • JSobieski

        I am unaware of any law professor (and most of them are left wing) who would entertain in a serious way that the “general welfare” clause is an independent justification for government power.

        They believe in a nearly infinite commerce clause, but if I would have answered any question on a Con Law exam with the “general welfare” clause I would have been given the grade of an F. Unless of course the question was, identify superfluous language.

        So when you see “educated” politicians make the “general welfare” argument you know they are absolute idiots or are willing to lie in a politically expedient manner. My money is on #2.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          SocSec was based.

        • bobmontgomery

          ..indicates some determination on your part to end DOMA, as well as DADT, and other defense mechanisms Socons have used to retain their value systems. The ‘General welfare clause, which horse you beat and beat and beat, was used only as an entry to the concept that governments have interests, which are the interests of the people who formed said governments, and to protect them, there are rules. I never said I was for an “expansive” welfare clause, just as I am not for an “expansive” commerce clause. What I asked was for you not to keep pushing so hard for traditionalists to allow their marriages to dissolve into meaninglessness. You who claim so loudly to want government out of your lives, instead of demonstrating to keep the federal government out of the people of California’s business, want to spend all your time arguing with traditional social conservatives about “liberty”. You sit here and (silently) root for federal judges all across the land to expand the definitions of liberty and the definitions of rights while proclaiming to be anti-”big government”. And you think that by guile and cajole and long-winded dissertation you can soften the conservative precincts into believing somebody’s right, or liberty, is being withheld. Again, marriage has been around for a long, long time, and you want to rewrite it’s definition and you want it done by the courts, overturning ballot boxes everywhere. I argued above that the intent originally was for the states to be the venue, but that activists wanting to take something they had never had, or more accurately to take something from someone else, used the federal government, leaving conservatives no recourse but to fight fire with fire. We are now in the midst of almost a Constitutional crisis over the Administrations expansion of federal powers and we have Ted Olson, and Red State clients, busily advocating that traditional conservatives surrender in the name of fiscalism and newfound rights.

          • Scope

            said not long ago that he is not a libertarian, but, is trying to keep the peace with the libertarians and the conservatives. I would say that that is not working out so well for him. You can’t be one, but then fight for the other. Jsobieski has not been posting honestly. He’s met many challenges, I think because of that. You can’t claim to be purple when you are really blue.

          • JSobieski

            except by leftist hacks in government.

            Even leftist law professors don’t buy it.

            The fact that I stand up for my libertarian friends doesn’t make me a libertarian any more than you standing up for pets makes you a car or a dog.

          • aesthete

            There are enough liberals out there destroying the Constitution that conservatives shouldn’t have to join in.

          • aesthete

            DOMA was written in a manner that it would pass muster with the Constitution, but for reasons entirely besides what you wrote. DADT was and is, similarly, entirely Constitutional, again for reasons entirely separate from the “general welfare” clause.

          • bobmontgomery
          • aesthete

            to allow states not to recognize same-sex marriages issued by another state. The Full Faith and Credit clause gives Congress the authority to legislate the question of the specifics of the obligations. An amendment prohibiting states from allowing same-sex marriage should they so choose, however, would most certainly be un-Constitutional from a textualist or originalist standpoint.

          • JSobieski

            I specifically advanced the argument that if gay marriage results in a definition of marriage of that is based only on the idea of two consenting adults, then all of the following would be permissible (which is a bad thing):

            polygammy
            interlinking marriage chains (Person A marries B, B also marries C, etc)
            Borthers marrying sisters
            parents marrying children

            I wrote extensively about this topic. Ask GC if you are unable to look it up.

            I don’t presume you are arguing in bad faith. Thanks for for not giving me the same consideration.

        • bobmontgomery

          …and not having ever taken a Con Law exam, but agreeing that most law professors are left-wing, I would grant that most would dismiss the general welfare clause, just as many of them would dismiss the provide for the common defense clause, just as many of them would ridicule truths being self-evident. Or more importantly and stridently, they would insist, as you probably do, since you agree with them so much, that there is a separation of church and state clause.
          I don’t know why the founders put so many superfluous words and phrases in the founding documents. Why the Constitution itself is a staggering, what, seven or eight pages? General welfare, indeed! For ourselves and our Posterity, indeed! Snark.Snark. In fact, they shouldn’t have stated any purposes at all, right? Should have just started out with “Article One , there’s gonna be a Congress and some judges, and an administrator.” The end.
          Being the law school graduate that you are, you probably know, but don’t want to enlighten too many here at Red State with your knowledge, that there is a whole history of law, civil and common, and various canons and coda, dedicated to the maintenance of order, sometimes for the benefit of The Authority and sometimes for the benefit of the people. The American esperiment was to, in many ways, escape from the crushing burden of authority and demand, which you of course applaud. But it was not without intent, without purpose, without vision, without acknowledgement of a need for societal order, and it most definitely was not without guidance of a spiritual, moral, as well as intellectual kind. That’s why I tried to inject the ‘general welfare’ argument. I could have used ‘leave the world a better place for our ‘posterity’ argument, or any one of a number of things. Laws either have a purpose, or they don’t. In my opinion, if they don’t look toward promoting the general welfare, or well-being, or personal maintenance of self,progeny and property as described in ALL the founding documents, or providing for the common defense, or securing the blessings of liberty, or insisting on the implementation of God-given rights, then they don’t have much of a purpose. “Superfluous language”? I don’t think so. But then, I’m not a law school graduate.

      • zroxx

        Bravo!

  • jamesmackey

    “the nine most terrifying words in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’”—- Ronald Reagan

    When people hurt government must move—- George W Bush

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275512887811775.html

    • lineholder
      • Scope

        that is why CPAC has become untenable for many. The Paultarians just don’t quit, and they seem to have no any other intention except to ridicule and aggravate. Not all, but to a large degree they are young, and they haven’t been taught manners, or the art of healthy debate. This guy has been doing this stuff for a while now.

        • lineholder

          But not all libertarians are that way. Agressive, yes. Contrary, sometimes. And there are plenty of things I don’t agree with them on.

        • e_rowe

          Since Jamesmackey’s hobby horse is obviously mocking social conservatives, I think it stands to reason that he’s not much of a Ron or Rand Paul fan. My guess is he’s more of a Giuliani type.

  • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

    When did anything good happen to the GOP during CPAC? I remember the John Edwards gay slur, the Mitt Romney Flip-Flop Dolphin and now see all of this stupid GOP Proud rhetoric this year. I’m thinking that CPAC has degenerated to a circle-jerk at best and a circular firing squad at worst. Perhaps we best aid the American Right by de-emphasizing CPAC the way National Review advocated de-emphasizing both Randism and The John Birch Society.

  • SirGladiator

    Between folks who are generally Conservative but happen to disagree on certain issues, and folks who set up their entire group expressly to advocate a far-left agenda, and then ‘claim’ to oh by the way be conservative on other things, things their group has nothing to do with. A group like goproud was set up exclusively to promote a far-left social agenda, anti-morals and anti-marrage, there’s nothing remotely conservative about them. You can say that in theory some of their members do happen to hold some Conservative viewpoints too, but that’s irrelevant, as that’s not what their group is about. If somebody founded a group called ‘abortionyes’ or ‘doublemytaxes’ or ‘endthearmy’ would anybody say these are ‘conservative’ groups simply because the founder might hold certain Conservative views on some other, totally unrelated issues? I don’t think so. If a group is founded explicitly to promote a far-left, downright evil agenda, then that group really shouldn’t be an honored guest of CPAC or any other Conservative group.

    Libertarians, for all their flaws, care most about issues that are Conservative, they care about lower taxes, smaller government, more freedom. They sometimes veer left on certain issues, but those issues dont tend to be nearly as important to them as the Conservative issues. And of course folks like Rand Paul as well as his dad prove that Libertarians are not exactly zealously committed to a pro-abortion or anti-marriage agenda, Libertarians agree to disagree on issues like that, they generally seem to simply not care about those issues. Thats far, FAR different from a group who makes ending traditional marriage one of their basic, top reasons for existing. So I would say yes to Libertarians, no to far-left advocacy groups like goproud.

  • the_basseteer

    REAGAN: If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals

    • JadedByPolitics

      “and there are libertarians who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy. ” Liberals, Libertarians and Anarchists are swirling at the bottom of the bowl of ideology….nice to see Reagan thought the same thing!

  • Tbone

    be excluded from all other gatherings as well.

    Simply for the reason that they exercise their deeply held belief that they have the inalienable right to fart anywhere and at anytime.

    When they do it in unison it sounds just like, “Ron Paul, Ron Paul, Ron Paul.

    • lineholder

      mean and you better get prepared for INCOMING!!!

    • proudmarinemom

      Do NOT move to Malawi.

      Even joking this way is a federal offense there.

      • Scope

        think that it is a freedom of expression. They think that if you can’t pass gas in public, you aren’t normal.

        • proudmarinemom

          “This, too, shall pass.”

          • proudmarinemom

            Let us pause to remember the words of the great American poet, Emily Dickinson, who wrote,

            “The Wind does not require the Grass
            To answer

        • Tbone

          that’s how they talk.

  • charm2

    you most likely won’t have any say about anything that happens in this country. I’m glad to have any fiscal conservative in this battle. Reducing government gives everybody more opportunity to influence government locally. This monster government in Washington, DC, is reducing the average Americans input into anything. Progressive elites will decide what you do unless you work butt off to take the money out of big government. The size of government has ballooned while the loss of local identity and local values has taken a nose dive. Kill the big government beast and you will probably find many issues much better if not resolved.

  • Scope

    when you were at that event two years ago, and, as you say an old GOPer said to you, in reference to libertarians, that he needed “those votes too, would that have been John McCain, by any chance? Seems plausible, as that old GOPer turned out to be the nominee. So, let me ask you this, are you willing to pander for votes anywhere and everywhere you can find them, much as McCain did back then? Haven’t we learned anything from that?

    • http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/ msimon

      You can’t win without enough votes.

      Driving folks from a coalition lowers your vote total.

      BTW Palin was brought on the ticket to get libertarian votes. Look at the Bob Barr surge in August 2008. Then look at where he was post Palin.

      http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-mccain-picked-palin.html

  • runner12

    I think it is important to seperate libertarians and the GoProud folks. GoProud’s main agenda surrounds their sexual orientation. So much so that they will abandon the principles they claim to espouse in order to force people to agree with them. They also seek to discredit anyone and disparage anyone who might disagree with their socially liberal idealogy. This is not conservative behavior, it is straight from the leftist playbook. I wish it were not so, but it is.

    There is a segment of libertarians who are socially liberal and lean more towards anarchy than limited government. However, I think that they are in the minority and largely discredited by many. Most common-sense libertarians and conservatives actually agree on a lot and I think that they (libertarians)bring some interesting and thought-provoking ideas to the table. Does that mean that we will agree 100% of the time? No. But we share the same goal, which is limited government.

    We can always have spirited debates among one another, but when it turns into name-calling and unfounded generalizations ( erowe and JM) it becomes counter-productive.

  • Scope

    here’s an article written by her to give you a hint-

    http://libertypundits.net/article/daily-caller-naughty-bloggers/

    • proudmarinemom
  • 1stRichard

    Libertarians, Social Conservatives and all the way to Classic Liberals that want limited government, that is those that actually understand limited government understand that it is up to each individual. It is declared by law in our State Constitution as a

  • http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/ msimon

    What is Conservative about Drug Prohibition?

    And BTW I missed the Drug Prohibition Amendment.

    • Bill S
      • aesthete
        • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
          • aesthete

            I’d be surprised to see a good argument for drug prohibition as it stands today utilizing an enumerated power outlined in the Constitution, or an implied power of the same.

        • Bill S

          legalizing substances that destroy the lives of millions of Americans. That’s a beautiful thing, isn’t it?

          Libertarianism is a textbook example of the bizarre results of taking an ideology to its logical conclusion…results that make no sense whatsoever.

          • aesthete

            that were already legal, like opium, alcohol, and basically every substance allowed until near the turn of the century in most states, and banned by the federal government only during the Progressive Era? Glad you can read the Founders’ minds, and divine the reasons that they didn’t include such an apparently obvious function of federal government in the enumerated powers. :)

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Sorry…I just couldn’t resist.

          • Bill S
  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    …when speaking of Christian Americans who think our government has an obligation to take care of the whole world (e.g., “compassionate conservatives” such as GWBush):
    “At what point do Christians need to tend to their own house?”

    I always think of this teaching from St. Paul:
    “If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
    1 Timothy 5:8

  • ssshannon1026

    Libertarians have nothing in common with conservatives. Where there appears to be some commonality, it is entirely superficial. Politically, Libertarians fall into two basic groups – anarchists or pro-capitalism social progressives. Of course, they reject those titles, but get into a serious political debate with any of them and you will hears cries of ‘right wing fundamentalism’ as quickly as you do from any marxist social progressives. Conservatives need to reject the Liberarian political ideal as fervently as they do the Liberal political ideal. Anyone who merely wants to be a libertarian, knock yourself out – just do it on your own time.

  • dajeeps

    That fails to recognize the gravity of the threat to everything we’ve known to be true about our nation. The only saving grace so far is that Democrats, through sheer hubris, over reached in their objectives, this time. But if one considers the enduring, long term objectives of the left, they have been rather successful to get as far as they have gotten over the last several decades. And I think those who subscribe to the notion that the war is now over and it’s time to start ditiching elements of the coalition that brought us to where we are, are falling victim to the same hubris that defeated the left in the last election. It is the same hubris that fractured the Reagan revolution and destroyed the Gingrich congress, allowing the RINOS to compromise away everything that was gained and help the left drive us into bankruptcy and economic collapse.

    If you want to repeat the mistakes of the past, I cannot stop you. I do, however, want to remind you that Obama is not a aberration, a fluke of history, and liberalism is not dead. If we wish to fight it and keep it from coming back, we need all the help we can get, and this is not helpful.

  • zizzer

    I’ve never voted for anyone not on the Republican Ticket in my entire life, but in the past few months I’m beginning to realize more and more how the Republican Party is a party of big government to nearly the same extent as the Democrats.

    Libertarians believe everybody has the right to life, liberty, and property as long as they do not interfere with those rights of others. Abortion takes away another human’s life, so that is not consistent with libertarian values. If a libertarian is pro-choice, then he is inconsistent with the values libertarians advocate.

    As for gay marriage, if the Republican party was really the party of small government, they would stay out of the issue of marriage altogether and let the people decide how to live their lives. A gay couple getting married does not harm anybody else at all. Why do Christians want to force other people into Christian practices? Do they think they can convert people to Christianity through government force?

    With regards to defense spending, it’s possible to advocate a strong military for our defense while also opposing having troops all over the world and telling other countries what they can and can’t do. If you have doubts about our spending on defense, this graph should reassure you: http://www.rickety.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Defense_Spending_by_Country-570×268.png

    This article helped me realize how the only thing I really align with modern conservatives/Republicans on is conservative fiscal policy, and since Republicans have abandoned that nearly completely now, I doubt I will be voting for a Republican in 2012 unless it’s Ron Paul.

  • Doc Holliday

    you will find many people here who are at least libertarian conservative. We want to stop the left from destroying the nation and we want to keep nanny stater’s from stealing our liberty. Forget Ron Paul, he will not be running. Be happy his son is now a Senator. Be part of the solution here, don’t just say you won’t vote Repub, because you will do no good and be banned.

    Some big gov socons are trying to pull a fast one, claiming they started the Tea Party, but it is just not so. The tea party was started by this guy. btw, the original video was viewed by millions but some lefty recently hacked the video and reduced it to 4 seconds.

    This British guy deserves a hat tip too, I think he actually spoke up first. This is in the EU parliament

    • zizzer

      I didn’t think I was disrespectful or profane. Anyway, I wasn’t just talking about not voting Republican because of what I saw on this post. It really just strikes me that when we’re set to increase the debt by $1.5 trillion more this year, the biggest plan the Republicans can come up with is to cut $57 billion and they view that as deep cuts. Meanwhile, Rand Paul suggests a modest $500 billion which still wont even come close to leveling the budget and he nearly gets crucified by everyone.

      I know that nobody in this election will win unless they’re on the Republican or Democratic ticket, but maybe if they realize the votes they are losing and notice that their base is shrinking they will change their big government ways. I will not continue to give them my votes when they are so similar to the Dems.

      Also, from what I’ve seen Ron Paul is still undecided whether he will run or not and a Rasmussen poll had him dead even when voters just considered him and Obama. What makes you say he won’t be running?

      I can’t watch the videos now, but I will when I get a chance.

      • Doc Holliday

        they took away the date we joined from our diaries. I think it had something to do with some people getting big heads, but that is just an educated guess. You have two posts so I am guessing you are new.

        I am just a “reader” here so I can’t ban anyone nor do I make the rules. The way I understand the most recent rules is that you can advocate for third parties here and you can’t say the words “Ron Paul” unless you have been a member for six months. It might sound like I am joking, but I am not. Those are the rules as I understand them.

        I figure there was a good chance that your post would have been ignored and possibly you would have been banned. But I decided to engage you and bring you into at least the idea of sticking with Republicans and pushing them to stand for our libertarian-conservative beliefs. Now you might be a pure Libertarian now, but if you don’t spend some time here reading, writing, and engaging in debate, we will have lost the chance for you to join us on a quest for maximum liberty and small government. There are many types here but there is a strong group that sees our future is libertarian-conservatism. You might find common cause with us. If not, that is ok, but it would be better if you did if we are going to bring down the socialist nanny state.

  • zizzer

    Thanks for the warning as I am indeed new. I’ve been a lurker here for awhile now, but this is the first thing that motivated me to post. I’m not saying whether I definitely will or will not vote for a Republican because I’m going to evaluate each candidate on his or her own merits, but I’m no longer going to vote for Republicans simply because they’re not as bad as Democrats.

    And if things keep going the way they are, this socialist nanny state will probably bring itself down when it fails.

    • Doc Holliday

      actually all of us should engage new people, to give them a chance. there is no monolithic view here, the simple rules are that it is a conservative and Republican site. but there are factions that debate the meaning of conservative all the time. I am a libertarian conservative in that I believe in the Constitution, a man’s right to chart his own course, and I am against all tyranny whether it is cloaked in religion, socialism, or “the greater good”.

      btw, the Ron Paul ban actually was an ad hoc rule during the last primary because so many so called Ron Paul types came here just to cause trouble and ruin the site.

      BTW, personally I think Ron Paul has many very good ideas, but we need another messenger, maybe his son. He has some kooky ideas in my opinion like blaming 9/11 as “blow back” for the US presence on Arab soil. that is like blaming a rape victim for wearing a low cut dress.

      We can discuss US entanglements abroad, that is fair game. It is just best to get your feet wet before firing with both barrels if you know what I mean. :)

      • zizzer

        He actually makes it very clear in his book and lengthier interviews that he does not blame us and instead blames Al-Queda. There’s a difference between placing blame and pointing to a cause. Let me give you an example I just thought up: Imagine one guy (A) incessantly bothers and insults another guy (B) and one day B kills A in response. Obviously, it’s A’s fault and he gets the blame for overreacting in such a violent way. Killing somebody is not the way to handle that situation. However, it’s perfectly reasonable to say that it would not have happened if B had not been bothering A. Dr. Paul wasn’t blaming us for the 9-11 attacks as Giuliani tried to spin it in the debate and other interviews, He was simply saying that our foreign policy makes us less safe.

        I see where you’re going with the rape analogy, but it’s not completely the same. A rape victim wearing a short dress is minding her own business, whereas we as a country do not. I’m not saying we’re responsible for the attacks, but our actions were conducive for them to happen.

  • danjuandemarco

    A limited Federal Government won’t tell you whom you can and can’t marry. I AM a social conservative. So that means I won’t marry another man. If my gay friends want to get gay married, that’s their personal issue, not mine. A Limited Government should play no part in it.

    A fiscally responsible nation will not put itself into excessive debt to fight foreign wars. Also, a Limited Government can’t spend money it doesn’t have. We should have a powerful military, and we do. We should keep our troops here, where they are needed.

    • zizzer

      Well spoken.

  • Pingback: CPAC Day 1: Morning Edition | The Dangerous Servant

  • JSobieski

    If GOProud is going to attend in order to talk about fiscal or foreign policy/military issues, then they should be allowed to participate.

    If they are planning on focusing on their disagreements with social conservatives, they shouldn’t be allowed to participate.

    Its a question of focus and a question of emphasis.

    I am a foreign policy hawk who is very skeptical of nation building in the ME. Does that mean I should be banned too?

  • EcH90

    It seems, at least to me, that there is little problem having all sorts of people in the tent who don’t necessarily care about the major issues of the others there (pure socons, fiscons, and the like), but the real problems arise when you have those who do stand by one or two of the central issues but hold the other or others in contempt. When homosexual issues oriented fiscons believe that socons are necessarily bigots, we have a problem.

  • Death_of_the_Donkey

    necessarily mean that we believe that the military budget is sacrosanct and above cuts (which many seem to believe).

  • runner12

    push their socially liberal agenda, they should not be allowed to come. But if they want to talk fiscal or foreign policy, that is fine.

  • MathMom

    If GOProud, or any group, adheres to the agenda, great. If they try to derail the agenda, turn off their mic and get back on the agenda. The times require that we chip away at liberal strongholds and bring some, who may want same-sex marriage, but also don’t want to be stoned by Islamists. So, compromise, get civil unions, and keep Sharia out of America.

    If your ideas are worthwhile, you shouldn’t be afraid to try to convince others ov their worth.

    Remember, not a big tent, but a big magnet – Fred Thompson’s idea.

  • acat

    the Venn you’ve provided is one way of dividing this up. I’ve used Pournelle’s Axes for years, trying to get people to understand that there’s not just one way to look at this stuff. (http://www.baen.com/chapters/axes.htm)

    I don’t see a problem with libertarians being at CPAC, any more than I see a problem with some of the heavy socon groups (Liberty U, forex) being at CPAC.

    The problem starts when we forget that the goal is to expand and explore the common ground – which is where the Venn you’ve provided is helpful – rather than arguing over who’s “right” on issues that don’t make up the common ground.

    It would be nice if the Venn could be zoomed out to show where this fits in the GOP, and the overlap that some groups within the GOP have with the Dems… the Nanny Staters forex. Just a thought.

    Mew

  • e_rowe

    I’ve noticed more and more that the label “libertarian” has become a strawman for moderate Republicans to hide how moderate they are. They redefine themselves as moderates, and say that anyone who’s more serious about reducing the size of government than they are is actually a libertarian. When the truth is, those libertarians are just true conservatives. Lindsay Graham is a classic example of someone who relies on that rhetorical trick.

    I can’t say how many times in 2008 I heard people say that Ron Paul was not a Republican because he was a “libertarian.” But on the two biggest social issues where the so-called libertarian view is a liberal one (abortion and illegal immigration) Ron Paul brought a much stronger conservative and not libertarian record than either McCain or Romney did, and no one ever said those two moderates were not Republicans.

    Also, it’s important to make sure not to confuse the categories by the way the question is presented. I fear that the use of a Venn diagram might do that. Conservatism isn’t some haphazzard combination of a little bit of this and a little bit of that. It”s a coherent approach to public policy, where the conservative take on fiscal issues, social issues, and military issues all fit together. In each of those issues, Reagan’s dictum stands as equally true, government is not the solution to our present problems, it is the problem. It is progressive policies in the past that expanded the scope of the government beyond its constitutional boundaries that has led to the social problems that some misguided conservatives think will be solved by a big-government band-aid put on top of the wound caused by big government, rather than rolling back the mistakes of past generations of progressivism. Likewise with the role of the US in the world. The conservative position is one that regards the very concept of global government (and, therefore, the existence of a global policeman) as an abomination. Foreign aid (to any country for any purpose) is always a liberal policy, as are nation building, using sanctions or the military or other interventionist measures to promote and protect democracies, and preemptive war. America is less safe today because of progressives of the past, from Wilson to FDR to Truman to LBJ tried to approach the planet the way they approached the nation, as central planners. The conservative answer to those mistakes isn’t to double down on them, it’s to roll them back. That is the essence of a strong defense, and what makes defense different than offense. The conservative approach is one that prizes defense, as Reagan did, by peace through strength. The progressive and neoconservative approach doesn’t pursue peace through strength, it pursues war, and often as a backdoor means of providing corporate bailouts and economic stimulus.

    But with those caveats, then if the libertarians that are to be excluded from CPAC are liberal libertarians and not conservative libertarians, then yes, they should be excluded. But if they’re both conservative and libertarian, then they shouldn’t. Folks like Pat Buchanan and John Hostettler shouldn’t be excluded because of their paleo-conservative foreign policies. Nor should Ron or Rand Paul, Justin Amash, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, George Will, Dick Armey, or other conservatives who follow the Austrian school of economics and demand a return of the federal government to its constitutional limits.

  • tropicgirl

    As an independent, a FISCAL conservative is the only type of conservative I will vote for, presumably from the Republican Party.

    I could care less about people’s lifestyle, as long as it doesn’t appear in inappropriate places.

    I refuse to accept that, to be a conservative, that I have to accept the MIS-use of the military, as in the Afghan Drug Running Operation, or the Iraqi Invade, Occupy and Plunder Operation. I respect the military too much.

    Until conservatives can PROVE they can handle being fiscally conservative, then they have absolutely nothing else to offer me.

    (WHICH THEY APPARENTLY CAN NOT, if you listen to Rand today), Case closed.

  • The_Gadfly

    on the front page of The New Republic* back around the time Reagan was in office. So the issue has been with us for quite a long time, as has the term neocon. While it is true that leftists seem to believe that adding ‘neo’ automatically makes something bad in the same way neo-nazis are bad, it is not and when properly used helps define a particular grouping of political philosophies.

    The question of ‘what constitutes conservatism?’ will never go away. It is another way of asking some of the great unanswerable philosophical questions: Who are we? What do we want? Who do we Trust?

    *Being young and uneducated, I picked up a few copies before I realized they were just another liberal rag. But I did eventually figure it out without being told that it was.

  • http://teapartisan.wordpress.com Socrates

    It’s the conserving leg itself.

    There are many who consider themselves conservative because they always work for the status quo — “thus far, and no farther”. Many who hold one or two of the other legs align with our side because they don’t like change, but once the liberals win one they oppose changing things back.

    This same impulse undergirds Social Security and Medicare. People know the programs are crappy designs and are bankrupting the country, but they can’t imagine changing them. Oh, but it’s the seniors, you say? The fear of change is why both conservative seniors and politicians are open to the demagoguery of the left.

    Likewise, there is a battle between defending the status quo and returning to constitutional ideals in fiscal, social, and defense matters, and even a cross-leg issue like immigration. Do we defend the status quo, or work for our ideals?

  • keepourrepublic

    This one does a better job of capturing all the different groups in the GOP.

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2566630396_16cb38caac_o.jpg

  • e_rowe

    isn’t the “neo-,” it’s the “-conservatism.” Neoconservatism is just progressivism imported into the GOP. There is nothing conservative about it. And all the major neoconservative thinkers are either left-of-center or moderate.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism#History_and_origins

    If there’s any groups that we should really be talking about that might not make the cut of being conservative enough for CPAC, it should be groups like the Foreign Policy Initiative that stand for nothing but a bigger, more centralized, more interventionist federal government.

  • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

    As you point out libertarians run a gamut of beliefs. Some for gay marriage some opposed, some for abortion some pro-life.
    In fact you would be hard pressed to find any single issue on which Libertarians universally agree.

    The gamut would run from total hedonists looking for license to Jeffersonian republicans. (Jefferson who advocated castration for GOProuders.)

    If libertarians are accepted into the party it would be practically impossible to say what that even means. If there is even remotely a common theme to libertarianism it would probably be a vague “government is too big and intrusive” a position already held by most “conservatives.” With a smaller more limited government we ALL have more freedom.

    GOProud on the other hand is all about one thing; being gay.
    We can pretend they are conservative fiscally or defense hawks; many even oppose abortion and would in most other ways be considered SoCons. But at their root they are about being gay.
    It is the core of their identity.

    The proof is simple. There are many ways and groups to join to be a fiscal conservative or a social conservative or a defense hawk. Instead they choose to join a group that is all about gays being accepted within the Republican Party.

    That is their primary agenda. It means gay marriage, gays in the military, gay adoption, (special) gay rights, whatever.

    Whereas a libertarian (many of whom are gay) is saying “leave me alone” a GOProuder is saying “you must accept me for who/what I am.”

    There is a radical difference between someone who wants to be free and someone who insists on being accepted.

    A move to bring in or accept GOProud is a move in the direction of the Democrat Party. A party comprised of hundreds if not thousands of competing interests and groups each willing to compromise on every other principle so long as their one agenda item is

  • http://teapartisan.wordpress.com Socrates

    To deride our nation’s military by calling Afghanistan a drug-running operation is offensive. Equally offensive and counter-factual is to all Iraq a “Plunder Operation”. To claim that you respect the military after using such phrases is laughable.

    If a fiscal conservative is the only kind you’ll vote for, does that mean that you don’t care about their stances on other issues, or just that you want them to be liberal?

  • aesthete
  • http://teapartisan.wordpress.com Socrates

    There is way too much editorializing in the subtitles.

    And to have Huckabee Republicans linked most closely to Reagan Republicans is just nuts. Huckabee is more like Bush43, but not a tax hawk.

  • Jim Tomasik

    I attended a year or so ago and it was clear to me that the method was terribly flawed to the core. One person can fill out several polling forms. That’s perfect for some young and sometimes over energetic RP supporters.

    IMHO, I don’t think CPAC should exclude the C4L people. Especially the young people. The others should welcome the young people and help them adjust their thinking if the CPAC participants are convinced it is wrong.

    CPAC is a good thing. (BTW, So is the summit11.org event in Phoenix.)

  • lineholder

    Aside from moral issues, which I see a choice of behaviors on the part of the individual, groups like GOProud have made a point to insist that the government be proactively involved in supporting their version of “freedom”. And this support does include financial demands.

    I’d like to know how much of their own “sacred cow” they would be willing to sacrifice, because if they aren’t willing to make sacrifices for the sake of protecting and preserving this nation, then are really conservatives or just playing politics?

  • runner12

    nt

  • sailingaway

    Unless you had some sneaky access that involved theft or something. One ticket, one vote.

  • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics
  • e_rowe

    But, to be fair, our military doesn’t choose its own missions. Those missions are assigned to it by the politicians. Criticizing the policy is not necessarily criticizing the ones who execute it, but the ones who assign it to them. At least that’s what I mean to do when I criticize misguided foreign policies.

    The same politicians that think they can manipulate the rest of the world by force are the ones that also try to manipulate you and me by force, and are clearly wrong to do so.

  • JSobieski

    How about ONLY AFTER we successfully repeal Obamacare, we comt to terms of definitions.

    I actually believe it when I say that if Obamacare stays in place for any length of time, that all definitions of what is means to be conservative will change because it won’t be possible to live as a conservative as we currently know the term.

    Just as a conservative in the late 20′s lost the ability to truly live their values with the coming the New Deal, our choices will become more limited after Obamacare if it becomes established.

    At this point, anyone interested in repealing Obamacre is welcome to come to my house and refer to themselves as conservative. When Obamacare is repealed, we can then come to terms on definitions.

    I actually want people to join in and stop Obamacare. Maybe be priorities are misplaced in the view of others, but repealing Obamacare is far more important at this time then getting the “definitions” straight.

    I am a lawyer who takes a lot of time to define the terms that I use in contracts and patents, but I don’t think definitions are the key issue right now.

  • concap

    ALL THESE DIFFERENT NAMES FOR DIFFERENT POLITICAL IDEALS ON THE RIGHT ARE ALL

  • e_rowe

    I can’t argue with that.

  • The_Gadfly

    It isn’t quite full bodied conservatism, but unlike any strand of progressivism I have ever encountered, it centers itself around certain central truths we ignore at our peril. One of those central truths is that The Great Moat is gone. We live in an interconnected world in which events that occur in other countries have a profound impact in our own. We therefore ignore what happens in those areas at our own great peril. The situation currently unfolding in Eqypt is a prime example of this truth. We have been unable for whatever reasons to get the ruling party of Egypt to embrace certain essential reforms. Now we face the specter of radical Ismlamists all over the Middle East. And like it or not, that threat has the potential to stifle our fledgling recovery by driving the price of oil sky high.

    So as I posted elsewhere, it is important for conservative conservatives to respect and evaluate what neocons have to say. They may be the source of an idea or policy that moves us to a more stable world with solidly protected natural rights.

  • Jim Tomasik

    ?/

  • aesthete

    I would think that the defining attribute of neo-conservatism in terms of foreign policy is the idea that poverty and a lack of democracy/self-determination in other countries are problems that can and should be fixed by the US.

    In terms of domestic policy, neoconservatives proudly support social democracy and the welfare state.

  • e_rowe

    If you look at a list of noteworthy neoconservative authors, not a single one of them will be someone who embodies conservatism. They’re typically liberal on both social and fiscal issues. And their defining feature, their approach to foreign policy as central planners, is one that epitomizes progressivism and that full-bodied conservatives have historically opposed, up until the past decade or so.

  • YnotNOW

    If they want to emphasize their agreement with mainstream conservatives, great. If they want to emphasize their disagreement with mainstream conservatives, they should not be a part of CPAC.

    Which are they? The name GOProud kind of gives it away.

  • http://www.scragged.com petrarch

    for citing Pournelle’s Axes. Ought to be required reading.

  • http://www.coloradans4palin.com bjwilson83

    I bounce around in the middle somewhat, but I’d probably be classified as a libertarian by that scheme. However I am socially conservative as well, and I’m not big into legalizing drugs or some of the more crazy libertarian ideas. I’m for a strong defense, but I’d rather it be actual defense than offense.

  • keepourrepublic

    I’ll agree that Huckabee Republicans are not placed right. Huckabee, Bush and Progressive Republicans should all overlap.

    But what goes on in the republican party is more then simply the three legs.

  • Scope

    http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/google-ron-paul2.php

    Very funny, but unfortunately very true.

  • JadedByPolitics

    Libertarian event then a Conservative one, so my suggestion is for Conservative groups to get up and have a convention of their own and let CPAC die on its on petard.

  • lineholder

    at the same time of the DNC convention?

    Just joking in some ways, Jaded, but serious as a heart attack in others. Take a look at LUR report about the DNC and unions.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    It’s the Values Voters conference later this year.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    http://www.valuesvotersummit.org/

  • JadedByPolitics

    ..

  • Scope

    was in October. Don’t know the dates for 2011. Contrary to what Ms. Clothier says, they are not a one issue group. They do value Reagans three plank conservatism. The speakers that are invited, speak to all those issues. From their website.

    Limit Government . Control Spending . Champion Traditional Values . Protect America

    I think that by next October, they will be the premier annual event for the Reagan Conservatives.

  • Bill S

    I’m hoping to be there this year.

  • e_rowe

    The way they work is like this:

    We want to protect America, champion traditional social values, and control spending BY limiting government.

    Conservatism pursues a reduction of the state in every respect, and an expansion of it in no respect. And it’s precisely through our reduction and decentralizing of the state that we intend to make America safer and less conducive to immorality.

    If the Values Voters folks think that people like Mike Huckabee, who don’t want to reduce the government, but to expand it, can qualify as a conservative just because he uses Christian jargon, then they’re the ones we conservatives need to boycott, not CPAC. Likewise with any group that would count big-government “neoconservatives” as conservatives.

  • http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/ msimon

    Is Drug Prohibition a Traditional Value?

    If so why did it begin (Federally) in Dec of 1914?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Are you seriously tarring the whole conference on the basis of one attendee?

    So can we take one CPAC speaker and judge CPAC based on it? Fine. So why does CPAC support the individual mandate of Obamacare, since Mitt Romney is speaking?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    RonPaulRonPaulRonPaul.

  • lineholder

    Okay, exactly what were you hoping to accomplish by making this statement?

  • e_rowe

    You’ll notice that I used the word “if.”

    And you’ll notice that it was in the context of a discussion of banning people from CPAC, or boycotting CPAC because of who attended it.

    But you’re right about Romney. If we’re going to start disqualifying people from being conservatives, Romney should certainly get the boot before the John Birch Society or Ron Paul do. But I don’t see people saying to boycott CPAC because he’s going.

  • e_rowe

    You can be a conservative and not be for certain strategies of using public policies to promote morality.

    You can be a conservative and not be for certain military entanglements.

    But you can’t be a conservative and be for making the federal government even bigger, more expensive, and more controlling of all aspects of society than it already is. Yet the great majority of the GOP has proven itself to be bent on doing so. Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, Newt Gingrich, John McCain, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, John Boehner, and Mitch McConnell, to name a few, are all guilty of pursuing the progressive goal of expanding the already bloated state. And yet nobody from that ilk is getting spoken of as not belonging at these conservative conferences for their failure to be conservatives on the one feature that is absolutely essential to the definition. Meanwhile, those people who have proven themselves most ardent in precisely that same defining feature of conservatism are the ones people here want to marginalize.

    It’s ridiculous. We’re running $1.5 Trillion/year deficits. The elephants can’t figure out how to cut more than $32 Billion. And the ones who have shown us how to do it are the ones many phony conservatives don’t want to listen to.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • Scope

    this is what you are going to encounter. This is why it is becoming a laughable event. Hey Grover Norquist, you will reap what you have sown. By next year it will be the annual Campaign for Liberty PAC. It has already becoming a laughing stock. Sorry Ms. Clothier. You can agree to grow that tent, but it will fall with the support of only one leg. Ha. Justice will be done.

  • http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/ msimon

    If the Huckster is a conservative it is only the social part.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • The_Gadfly

    to Berlin and proclaim “Tear down this wall!”? Because the reason he made that proclamation was that he believed the people of East Berlin and East Germany were suffering from relative poverty and a lack of democracy/self determination. Because that’s what you are arguing: Reagan was wrong and the professional wonks were right.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • The_Gadfly

    I said they correctly analyze a particular set of issues, specifically the principle interests of the United States viz a vie foreign policy and how to deal with the thugocracies opposed to us. Foreign policy at its heart IS a central planning issue. The US Constitution even recognizes that when it specifies the Federal Government as the sole legitimate locus for establishing foreign policy.

    I’m all for beating them up on their appalling fiscal and social policies. But it is important not to translate that into a hatred that blinds us to truth when they speak it.

  • aesthete

    While he held out tremendous hope that the rest of the world would eventually appreciate American values, democracy, capitalism, and equality, he did not wait for the world to catch up to those aspirations and always held America’s sovereignty and interests above those attributes. My list upthread is only a partial accounting of the unappealing countries and groups that Reagan worked with and funded to eliminate the USSR: yet without them, would the USSR still be around? It’s quite possible.

    The main differences between Reagan and past Presidents were Reagan’s optimism that America’s superior ideas would win the day and that the Cold War was primarily ideological in nature (which explains the increased funding for and attention given to propaganda), and the notion that the USSR was beatable, rather than simply containable. IMO, Carter most exemplifies the idea that we should dedicate our time, effort, and troops on the foreign policy stage to ideals: his high standards cost us an ally in Iran, and his squeamishness weakened brutal and unlovable autocracies which were, nonetheless, on our side. IMO, it is Reagan’s recognition of the ideological battle that we face, not Carter’s high standards, which are more useful to us, and which will win the day for us in our war against radical Islam.

    I am not averse to promoting democracy through propaganda or statements on the part of the Congress and the President, and I am certainly all for it if you can prove that the country in question is both capable of democracy, and that the benefits of creating one have a good chance of justifying the costs. Otherwise, the creation of democracy out of whole cloth is a luxury that we are better off without.

    This quote from John Q Adams seems appropriate to the discussion, and articulates my own stance on America’s promotion of democracy better than I could: “[America] goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.”

  • aesthete

    and constructing a society from top-down through bureaucratic feat, as we’ve attempted in Iraq and Iran. I have no idea whether Reagan would have supported “nation-building”, but I’m inclined to believe that he would not have wasted time on such utopian thought (especially in Afghanistan).

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    his willingness to call evil by its name

    spend the money to have peace thru strength

    show a willingness to use force in Grenada etc

    Show a willingness to fund freedom fighters against USSR even with a Boland Amendment

    willing to say nyet to Gorby

    etc ad infinitum

  • Spiral

    I think the neo-conservatives are correct in one sense. And that is that people don’t like being abused, oppressed and subjugated.

    So, when you are trying to defeat an enemy, you want to make use of the fact that the enemy wants to abuse, oppress and subjugate people. We play the role of liberators and the war becomes easier to win.

    In the case of the cold war, we won without firing a shot. In the case of Afghanistan and Iraq, we did have to use real bullets. But we still appeal to that universal desire not to be put in mass graves or in rape rooms or any other dictator’s tool of oppression.

    Imagine how much longer the cold war would have went on if Reagan had not played the role of liberator and said in 1987, “Mr. Gorbochav, Tear down that wall!”

  • The_Gadfly

    something which seems to become a manta for me these days:

    The Moat is GONE.

    In Adams day The Moat was a great protector of our sovereignty. On our own continent, we brooked no interference in our manifest destiny. With The Moat gone, we have to adjust our foreign policies. Indeed, I should venture that had any European country had the advantages of our Moat, they too would have avoided the entanglements against which Adams and Washington warned. But they didn’t and thus were forced to engage in the great risks of an active foreign policy.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    you would be more sure, as I am, that he would favor what we have done in Iraq and would have tried for a time in Afghanistan. Remember, even us neo-cons don’t want to seek out places to nation build. Its just that after we defeat an enemy, its the smart thing to do to try.

    Moreover, we succeeded in West Europe and Japan and other places.

    You will see in his letters, speeches and the book above etc, that giving liberty to the millions under suppression was major moral burden to him and he spoke much as Dubya re how liberty like ours is possible wherever men yearn to breathe free.

    I think the main problem with the attacks on neo-cons is due to false assumptions about just when and for how long we would “nation-build”. More later

  • Spiral

    Abraham Lincoln was the original neo-conservative. He used the emancipation proclamation as a means of informing the slaves in the south that they had something to gain, freedom, if the union won.

    Since the south’s ideology was based on the idea that slavery was “the negro’s proper place” (Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy), Lincoln was waging an ideological war against the South. And Lincoln hit the South at its vulnerable point.

    The South always feared slave uprisings. The Emancipation Proclamantion increased those fears. Eventually thousands of newly freed African Americans fought on the Union side in the Civil War.

    It’s really the same in the Cold War and the War on Terror: Use the universal desire for freedom and human dignity to our advantage, since the basis of our society is freedom.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    We believe that we ought to use our power in a benevolent manner when forced to use power anyway and in other instances based on the circumstances as preemption or humanity.

    As the constant target of evil, being the superpower in the world and so are the impediment to megalomaniacs to rule the earth as they mostly did before we existed, we believe that its important to plant seeds of liberty so as to reduce enemies over the long term..

    I would say that I think it best not to say we won the cold war without firing a shot, because I do think that the wars in Korea and Vietnam were battles in the same war.

    more later

  • aesthete

    Sure, that desire can be used. OTOH, the reality is that lots of people don’t particularly care about freedom, or if they do, not enough to fight for it or to support us. Sometimes they might not even be able to: I’ve mentioned education and other factors as playing a role in that in the past, but to bring it down to earth, I can’t imagine myself being willing to risk the lives of my family if I’m a middle class guy who’s kept alive because I don’t ask questions or buck anti-freedom forces. Sometimes it works great (think Japan and some of our other Cold War experiences), and sometimes it doesn’t work at all (think Iraq, Haiti, and a whole bunch of other experiences). We should try to look into the proximate reasons for success and failure, rather than simply assume that democracy transforms other countries into mini-clones of the US instantly and inexpensively.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    made the point that it goes back even further…more later

  • aesthete

    Abraham Lincoln was not the right President for Reconstruction. As maligned as Andrew Johnson is for his decision to restore most of the South’s institutions, I don’t see an occupation attempting to transfer Northern values going well. Moreover, we had some commanders from the South (Robert E Lee comes to mind) somewhat supportive of occupation to ease the transition: we don’t have that in all (or most) countries.

  • Doc Holliday

    to bolster a Northern populace that was tiring of the war and was not clear why they were fighting it. He also made the declaration to stave off British and French intervention on behalf of the South. It is also true he did it to undermine and scare Southerners.

    The irony of the Emancipation Proclamation is that is really freed very few people when it came out. Only slaves in the Confederacy were “freed”. In other words, those than could not be freed at the time were “freed”. The slaves in Washington DC, Maryland, Deleware, etc were not freed.

  • aesthete
  • The_Gadfly

    But as I stated at the outset of this thread, the true conservative has to respect those aspects of the sectional purists of the three (or four depending on your point of view) legs of the conservative stool in the areas of their expertise. For the neocons, that area is foreign policy.

    Nation building for the sake on nation building is to be avoided. The risks are too great, the time required too long, and the amount of national treasure spent too great to engage in it like a walk to the mailbox. But when it is the only path by which our own liberty can be secured, it is a path that must be followed to its conclusion.

  • Doc Holliday
  • aesthete

    While the Lady Liberty in the famous French painting “Liberty Leading the People” might be at the front of the revolt from tyranny, the US cannot, breast exposed, hold the bloody banner of every nation’s independence movement. Our experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan should have intructed us, but there are neo-conservatives out there musing that perhaps the Democratic Republic of Congo, Zimbabwe, Somalia, and Darfur in the Sudan could be among our new pet projects; that is rank foolishness! The loss of the “Moat” requires shrewd and canny strategy in a world lacking with sharp edges, not strategy through cliche.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    is one of the main reasons we and the world have had so much peace for the last 60 years

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • aesthete
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Because slavery prohbition didn’t start until 1865.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
  • JSobieski