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RS

FRONT PAGE CONTRIBUTOR

Wisconsin cops & firemen break their oaths.

It would seem that loyalty to their union masters take precedence over loyalty to the people of Wisconsin.  From a contemptible letter written to M&I Bank threatening a boycott:

The undersigned groups would like your company to publicly oppose Governor Walker’s efforts to virtually eliminate collective bargaining for public employees in Wisconsin. While we appreciate that you may need some time to consider this request, we ask for your response by March 17. In the event that you do not respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters, and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.

In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining, please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the goods and services provided by your company.

Now, this would not be a contemptible letter if it were signed by members of private sector unions.  Private sector unions work in trades, and they have the right to make informed business choices (and even uninformed ones).  But public sector union members are supposedly public servants – and they are expected to avoid even the hint of impropriety in their labor disputes.  This is a barely-veiled threat from the cops and the firemen that organizations subject to the anti-labor reform boycott cannot expect a prompt and effective response from them in case of emergency.  Simply put, there are different standards of behavior for emergency responders.  Stricter ones, because being a repository of the public trust carries with it an expectation of behavior that is appropriate for that trust.  This letter harms that trust.

Stop.  Let me explicitly say that I do not believe any pious excuses along the lines of “That’s not what they meant!”  This is precisely the kind of let’s-imply-without-saying, sneak behavior that we’ve all come to expect from union ‘negotiators.’  Let me also explicitly say that the cops and firemen have nobody but themselves to blame for making anybody trust them less as a result of this letter: if they don’t want people to have legitimate concerns about public ‘servants’ taking partisan sides, then public ‘servants’ shouldn’t take partisan sides.  There is no margin for ambiguity or nuance, here: there should be no margin, either.  That there is anyway merely confirms why the notorious small-government conservative FDR was entirely correct in opposing public sector unions in the first place.

If I lived in Wisconsin, I would be pounding the table right now and demanding that every signatory to that letter hand in their badges.  Since I don’t, it’s incumbent on Wisconsin citizens to make an answer to this.

Moe Lane (crosspost)

COMMENTS

  • edwyrd

    the mayors family business for even mentioning pension reform

    http://jacksonville.com/forums/news/rants_raves_forum/163185

  • Raven

    wholesale. And destroy their unions.

    You can Not allow this kind of threat. It is unconscionable.

  • sta46

    At the very least, it is extortion, which, last time I looked was a crime. I hope the state AG goes after them. Every one of them should be fired on the spot.
    I read the farmers are supporting the unions… I wonder how many of the farmers know that the state spends north of 750,000.00 tax-payer dollars py on just Viagra for these thugs? Or that some of the benefit packages are 27,000.00 per person per year? I don’t even earn that much and I’ll bet there are some small farmers up there who don’t either.

  • http://www.itsaboutliberty.com IronDioPriest

    perhaps this will begin to open their eyes to the conflict of interest inherent in the very concept of public sector unions.

    Unions in the public sector need to be made illegal, across the board.

  • Bill S

    Public sector unions should be illegal in all 50 states. End of story.

  • Raven

    Do not think that they would face sever repercussions. Docked pay, restriction of movement, dishonourable discharge. Doesn’t matter how Many got involved in it.

  • Kyle-MI

    See this diary:
    http://www.redstate.com/lineholder/2011/03/11/and-the-intimidation-of-private-businesses-in-wi-by-unions-begins/

    Sounds like they have sent these letters around to a bunch of businesses.

  • longun45

    But in doing so they recognize that the privilege of collective bargaining is revocable by the people at any time for any reason with no reasons stated. The politicians gave way the Taxpayers hard earned tax money , got paid back in contributions and continued robbing the people. They were defeated at the polls. Now the Unions show their true colors and personality of being infantile bullies, who act like children who had their candy taken away. The Hells Angels are are mild in comparison to these temper tantrum prone bullies.

  • thibodaux

    I make 29,000.00 per year in a job I’ve worked at for 26 years. I put away $800.00 per month in the 401(K) so I actually make 19,400.00. I understand I can’t depend on SS or anyone else but myself. I get real pissy when I hear stuff like this. These folks need to feel the full extent of the law.

  • http://www.itsaboutliberty.com IronDioPriest

    …that made unions so disreputable, and associated with criminal activity.

    I don’t know if that kind of activity was muted because unions became more respectable and disassociated with criminal activity, or if it was muted because unions largely got whatever they wanted and didn’t feel the need to behave in this way.

    Regardless, the thugs are back, and they’re pissed. They intend to intimidate the American people into capitulation.

  • Doc Holliday

    maybe those in Wisconsin that don’t like thugs and bullies, will boycott Democrats?

  • Kyle-MI

    http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/March11/0311/0311prnewswire.pdf

    They make good points. The bank has no policy either supporting Walker or the unions. It was strictly bank employees exercising their individual right to contribute to campaigns. Even though more money was given to Walker, there were some who gave to his opponent (and there is no indication that their job was put in jeopardy because of it).

  • http://www.riversedgealliance.org Robin Smith

    Since the vogue issue around the White House is bullying, the Wisconsin union situation offers a case study.

    The bullies: The “Teachers” Union & their surrogats: loud, threatening, aggressive, attempts to control.

    The victims: School kids, parents, TEACHERS, taxpayers, Wisconsin’s budget, etc.

    Ironically, the Democratic Underground features a post about bullies. We report, you decide if this applies:
    a) bullies select a victim who is physically less strong than they are, for bullies are always cowards
    b) bullies select victims who have a mature understanding of the need to resolve conflict with dialogue and who won’t turn round and kick the bully
    c) bullies select victims who have a low propensity to violence – which is what parents and society instil in and demand of children
    d) targets of bullies go to enormous lengths to resolve conflict with dialogue not realising that bullies are too disordered, dysfunctional, aggressive and immature to respond to dialogue
    e) targets of bullying go to enormous lengths to resolve the conflict with dialogue often without the assistance of adults and sometimes in spite of the adults who by their failures and inactions condone the bullying (bullies are adept at manipulating the perceptions of adults, especially those adults who lack knowledge, experience, wisdom and emotional maturity)
    f) bullies are weak people – normal healthy people don’t need to bully
    g) bullies are dysfunctional, disordered, aggressive and emotionally retarded which they reveal by their compulsive need to bully
    h) bullies are irresponsible people who refuse to accept personal responsibility for their behaviour and the effect of their behaviour on other people
    i) bullies prey on people with a kind heart

    Myth: Bullies are tough people
    Truth: Bullies are weak, cowardly and inadequate people who cannot interact in a mature professional manner and have to resort to psychological violence (and, with child bullies, physical violence) to get their way. Only weak people need to bully.
    Source: http://bit.ly/e0CUp3

    Yep, bullies are cowards.

  • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

    As Moe said, it’s going to be up to the people of Wisconsin to stand up to these bullies and “make an answer to this” bullying and intimidation. And get the bullies fired. And that means organizing politically.

    The Wisconsin Republican Party has a call on its web site for Wisconsinites to “Contact your county party chairman and get involved at the local level.”

    Here’s the link to their site which provides the information for contacting the Party county committees:

    http://www.wisgop.org/about/county-parties-map/

    The Wisconsin Republican Party local caucus and committee meetings for the election of officers are already underway and have already taken place in some instances, as the bylaws say these elections are to take place before April 1. But, no matter, it’s never too late to start attending your local Party committee meetings to learn how to become a full-fledged, voting member of the Republican Party.

    If good, decent Wisconsinites are going to organize to stand up to the union thugs and bullies, they might just as well do so inside the Republican Party. Because if the recall elections become a reality, they’ll need to be involved in helping to get out the vote in the new elections.

    Thank you.

    ColdWarrior

  • earlgrey
  • ohiohistorian

    Will they go far enough to deny protection to these companies such as the police appeared to do to the general public during demonstrations?

    A couple related questions:
    Have the couple locals of police and fire that supported Walker come out to stand with their “brethren”?
    Is there civil service in WI? If there is, why do the civil servants even need unions? If the unions get their way, should civil service be abolished for those in the affected unions?

  • ssshannon1026

    why the recall elections are a one way street? Why is there no threat from our side to recall democrats?

  • Locked and Loaded

    There are plenty of able-bodied young men and women who I’m sure would be glad to replace these blowhards.

  • earlgrey

    it is just that the liberal media doesn’t like to talk about it.

  • lineholder

    to chants of “Fabulous 14….Our Heroes” from protesters.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2687852/posts

    And here are pictures of some of the protesters that showed up in Madison today. (If you need a laugh, this is a good one!!!)

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2687854/posts

  • Vegas_Rick

    Nice business ya got dere. Shame should sumtin happin to it. Ya get me?

  • msctex

    . . .at this point of what all this actually means. The Unions themselves are a relatively minor issue compared to what this will mean to the Democratic Party as a whole. They have essentially been printing money through a corrupt relationship with the Unions for decades. The Party Machinery is about to slip a gear.

  • smitch61

    I know.. did not see an open thread. Somewhat related, but here in Michigan the unions are a tad up in arms regarding the new governor. I think Michigan might be the next casualty, and unfortunately for us, it happens to be Michael Moore’s home base…. yuck!.. You should here the people talking, all of a sudden they are all up in arms over this thing called ‘rights’..and their right to organize and big business sucks… yadda, yadda, yadda…. Funny thing though, they did not pay much attention when Granholm was taking away the rights of business, and raising taxes to pay for incredible public sector pay…. we will see what happens.

  • Jewels

    This is despicable behavior, at best.

  • qsclues

    I thought that the police and firefighters were specifically exempted from the collective bargaining changes. (Or did that change?) If I am correct about that, what the hell are they complaining about?

    Yes, I know it’s still a union and thus run by the same thugs as the other unions, but still…don’t the individuals know that they aren’t affected by what just happened?

  • qsclues

    Has I been there (and had any musical talent) I may have serenaded them with the song at 2:27 or so of this clip…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4SJ0xR2_bQ

  • acat

    Especially since, unlike choosing a box of tile or a hand saw or an electric razor made by an american company using non-union labor, the citizens don’t have the choice of shopping around short of leaving the state… and that’s a much larger decision than a box of tile or a saw…

    Mew

  • writeblock

    Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. He learned from Calvin Coolidge before him who catapulted to fame by firing Boston cops who went on strike. They understood the one thing the public cannot tolerate is widespread disorder. Yet that’s what Walker invited by his failure to arrest protesters, By showing patience and nice-guy tolerance for misdemeanors being committed daily inside the Capitol, he sent exactly the wrong message to unions, telegraphing weakness instead of strength.

    Holman Jenkins in today’s Wall Street Journal has an article on why dereliction in such small things matters. As he explains it, the famous “broken windows” philosophy put to such great use by Mayor Giuliani to clean up New York, derived from a Standford study on neighborhood vandalism. James Q. Wilson, writing on public disorder, helped popularize the phrase:, Wilson states, “We coined the phrase ‘broken windows,’ suggesting public order is a fragile thing, and if you don’t fix the first broken window, soon all the windows will be broken.”

    Walker allowed too much chaos for too long– unlike Andrew Cuomo who demanded police arrest protesters for minor infractions. These thugs only understand toughness. Walker needs to deal forcefully with these threats of mutiny or they will be realized to his great disadvantage..

  • writeblock

    I’m suggesting he make life disagreeable for those directly involved in this mess. Technically these people are not responsible for what their union bosses write. But some WERE responsible and Walker needs to look into this as a serious threat. Some police officers likewise gleefully enabled the protesting chaos to continue in the capitol building. Walker needs to take a serious look at this as well. As governor he had the power to call on the National Guard to impose order. He should have done so.

  • liandro

    of problems when calling on Soldiers to deal with American civilians. Speaking as a Soldier myself, this is a very extreme tactic that you are mentioning, for both the involved Solders and civilians.

    I think that would have been a very bad idea unless local and state authorities lost all control, which certainly didn’t happen. The decision to allow so much leeway to protesters was political in nature, and as far as I can tell had nothing to do with an actual inability or unwillingness by police to get firmer if that was asked of them.

  • benjaminz

    You are right; they are exempt. Apparently they are acting out of “solidarity” with the other unions, fearing that they will be next. Probably some fear mongering on behalf of their union heads?

    “First they came for the trade unionists…”

    Yada yada.

  • writeblock

    The whole point of the National Guard is to deal with state emergencies. There was a real danger to the legislators moving in and out of the capitol building. That was real, not imagined. Death threats were received.

    One of the most unsettling sights for the citizenry is public disorder on the scale that we witnessed in Madison. People will tolerate almost anything, but they hate disorder. The left knows this and uses it to win political points. Walker lost altitude politically by dithering and not acting forcefully.

    There were actually two struggles going on simultaneously. One was the effort to pass the bill, the other was the fight for public opinion. The left knew that if it banged enough drums and made enough of a ruckus, the public would be alarmed and demand something be resolved quickly. In its frustration it would blame the governor–and it did. It wanted the issue to get off its tv screens even if it gave the unions a win.

    Under the broken windows theory, had Walker acted forcefully to impose order, he would have gained political altitude instead of losing it. It would have reassured the public that things were under control.

  • benjaminz

    This was supposed to be a reply to qsclues comment. That was my first ever RS post. I’ll learn!

  • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

    and they should be charged, arrested, hOpefully convicted and stripped of their precious pensions/bennies packages and sent straight to prison.
    But that’s just my opinion since pitchforks and torches are out of the question usually.

  • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

    Then, when they go to far and some of them get nailed for it then they might pull back and stop… or they might push us to and then over the brink of dealing with what could be an insurrection etc…

    Once rule of law goes out the window, crystal ball gets really murky on what comes next…

  • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

    The privileged never give up their perks/go quietly unless overwhelmed by sheer numbers. The people of Wisconsin who absolutely are disgusted by them should turn out all at once and run them out of town.

  • annas

    for the people of Wisconsin to be appalled at this behavior? This is blatant threats from thugs who are accustomed to running things. Can it be possible that the citizens of Wisconsin are really OK with this and want a return to business as usual? That it what it seems from reporting…….

  • liandro

    restraining the citizenry would work to our advantage in the battle for public opinion? This wasn’t a natural disaster; you’re asking them to violently restrain citizens from protesting. While I agree that there was a danger to legislators (and others), it was one that they took upon themselves by allowing the protesters. It was the choice of the Republicans to allow so much protesting, and at any time local authorities could have established more order if the Republican political powers chose to do so.

    No, I am not saying that it wasn’t dangerous; I’m saying that it was never out of the control of the the local authorities. I’m not even disagreeing with you on Walker and the legislative leaders…I was wondering why they didn’t act sooner in terms of separating out pieces of legislation such that the high quorum wasn’t needed. It went on too long, especially after the Sen. Dem’s skipped town.

    None of that reflects on the ability of local authorities to do their jobs…they were restrained by the the directive of the political leadership, not by the scope of the problem. If something comes out down the road refuting that I’ll stand corrected, of course, but I’ve seen nothing to indicate they couldn’t have stepped up had leadership allowed/asked them to. There was no need for the Guard, and doing so could have been a potential disaster both in real terms and public opinion.

  • writeblock

    It was clear from the outset the cops were in sympathy with the protesters. That’s what prolonged the chaos. Walker couldn’t rely on the police to impose order. They were invested in doing just the opposite. He was obliged to go around that for the sake of public safety.

    You mention being a soldier. But being in the US Army is not quite the same thing as being in the National Guard. Yes, members of the National Guard are soldiers, but they serve the individual states–though the President can call on them to bolster the regular Army in times of war–but technically the governors of the states are their commanders-in-chief and can call on the Guard in times of emergency. This was done during the Civil Rights era, for instance, when blacks were facing hostile mobs. This was no different. Legislators were in danger and needed protection. Even their families were threatened. Walker himself was unsafe.

  • writeblock

    I constantly read comments like yours about how things might look–the fear of how it might look seeing soldiers restraining the citizenry, as you put it. But clearly this was no polite Tea Party activism, it was an angry mob. I doubt the public would have perceived the situation as you imagine.

    Secondly, I’m not as sanguine as you concerning the local police. It was clear they were part of the problem and were actually enabling the protesters, allowing them into the building, allowing them to stay overnight after Walker put out the call to have them removed from the premises. They fueled the situation by telegraphing their sympathy–which the mob understood.

    I agree with you that the political end was considerably at fault. I said as much, blaming Walker for not seeing that arrests were made–the way Cuomo did right away in NY. But I’m also aware he was dealing with a recalcitrant police force. The press didn’t make much of this–but the videos definitely showed a lot of enabling on the part of the local police.Walker just could not rely on them to secure public safety.

  • Raven

    Before the soldiers are left no option but to open fire.

    When control is gone, the soldiers must be used to Retake control. And that’s never pretty.

  • Raven

    The governor who sent the National Guard to that college campus where they ended up opening fire and killing protesters in the 70s got reelected in a landslide.

  • 1689

    Moe Lane is exactly right. They have no refuge to say they’re limiting their threat to boycotting “goods and services.” They’re announcing they’re against you if you don’t join them politically. So everyone also knows that if the cops & firemen detest your position, they ain’t going to be too interested to show up when the private-union thugs break in, burn the place, & steal things (or when ordinary crimes & fires happen too).

    The Wisconsin cops’ actions are identical to those of the federal air traffic controllers union, PATCO, which declared a strike in 1981. But they violated federal law which banned strikes by government unions. Reagan declared the PATCO strike a “peril to national safety” and fired them all. Whether they have a general strike, or threaten a do-you-get-my-meaning boycott, it amounts to the same thing — putting the public safety in jeopardy.

    This stunning letter should be front page on all the networks. It’s demonstrates with remarkable clarity the reason why the public should never, never allow any group of public servants to unionize. Their duties are to the public as a whole, without regard to politics. The temptations to withhold services & thuggish behavior are too great.

  • SayNoToRINO

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act

    I’m no lawyer, but it appears to me that the unions/union members are engaging in an extortion/protection scheme. Pay up (by supporting us) or else (Intimidation, threats, retaliation – sounds like the Mafia).

    I suspect multiple Federal Laws are being violated. Why doesn’t this behavior trigger a RICO investigation (other than the fact the DOJ is broken)?

    Per Wikipedia: RICO also permits a private individual harmed by the actions of such an enterprise to file a civil suit; if successful, the individual can collect treble damages.

  • gpclaw

    Union members aren’t responsible for what their union bosses write, but they are responsible for choosing which union represents them and can elect union leadership.

    I’m tired of defending the teachers, the cops and the fire fighters and treating them as victims of their union leadership. Any unionized group of workers can vote to decertify the union and then vote to certify different union representation.

    Either these employees support the tactics of their union bosses and the contempt they show for the community, or they stand with the tax payers in the community they serve. If they support the community, then our public servants can make a good faith showing by showing the thugs the door and demanding responsible representation.

  • smagar

    Or, too intimidated to do anything about it?

    It will be interesting to see how much national support the pro-thug side gets in these recall campaigns. Something tells me they won’t lack for money or volunteer support. (If they’re smart, they’ll hold the recall election in the summer, once all the radical college students are done with their exams). Expect LOTS of TV commercials in WI over the next few months, that are pro-union.

    Where can we go to start donating money to Governor Walker and his allies? They’re going to need it.

  • smagar

    Now would be a good time to document those things? I’m just sayin…

  • ohiohistorian

    Isn’t it through election? If so, then why aren’t the police and fire responsible? Walker needs to FIRE a bunch of them. Coolidge was right, Reagan was right. The only thing a union respects is force.

  • ohiohistorian

    Who owns the US attorneys? Isn’t it the Attorney General, aka Eric “I never saw a large contributor I wouldn’t pardon” Holder? And you expect HIM to prosecute the unions under RICO?

  • ohiohistorian

    Very far off track, but the response reminded me of this one. Remember the days when town services were conservative?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHYPZBpxeZE

  • ssshannon1026

    on conservative media either. Is there any limit to what the left has the power to do in our society? DOn’t like the results of democracy, run away and hide so that the legislative process is impeded. If that doesn’t work? Recall the people you don’t like. If they have the power to recall, and we don’t, what the hell difference does winning an election make?

  • jeffex11

    Isn’t this extortion? Now the police and Fireman unions are resorting to a protection racket. Michelle Bachman called the Obama administration “gangsta’ government” . I think that is appropriate to describe these unions as well.

    I guess we can all expect a call from the police and fireman asking for a donation to their widows and orphans funds . You know, one where they imply that the level of response time is directly related to your “contribution”

    What the hell happened to my country in 2008?

  • edwyrd

    if the guard is called out, is it a possibility that there could be a confrontation BETWEEN the guard and the police?

    what if walker, in the future, decides to repeal the CBRs of the police/firefighters unions? would the police go from enablers to active potesters, or worse?
    and what is the rationalization for “measured lawlessness,” in this case? and what precedence does it set for furture disputes?
    by letting the police enable the protesters, walker sends a message to unions everywhere to use harsh violent tactics. it opens the door for MORE violence.

    the unions will take this as a singal that they CAN bully the governments and the people.

  • Bill S

    Extortion.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Actually “it” happened in the late 60s and 70s. And “it” is that the far left took over Democratic Party. People like Teddy Kennedy and John Kerry rose to prominence in the party and they became the anti-American Party.

    Unions had always been a powerful force in the Democratic Party, but after the Left took over the Party, they became even more powerful as Union leaders and Democrats conspired to move huge amounts of money from taxpayers through public employee union members to union pension funds and union coffers where the money could end up in the hands of Democrats as campaign contributions.

    Unions in public sector, specifically AFSCME, SEIU, NEA, AFT and to a slightly lesser extent – and only very slightly, are nothing less than a criminal enterprise when combined with the Democratic Party at the local, state and national level.

    If a group of Republican state AGs ever man-up and work with a Republican AG at the federal level, we could see the biggest RICO prosecution ever. The net result would be most of the leadership of the Democratic Party and all of the union bosses would never see the light of day again. And unions would, thankfully, be permanently a thing of the past.

  • jeffex11

    I am not against unions in the private sector . Trade unions have elevated the quality and training of their workforce. They are able to administer pensions and Health Care Insurance for their workers. but in today’s world that is where the good ends.

    The problem arises when their efforts to increase their POWER is an advantage over a non-union bid through corruption between union and government. The truth is the unions have to pay for their abuse of the public trust. Simple as that.

    Capitalism has NOT failed…people have failed! corruption is so pervasive in our society today that it infects all aspects of life. Much like Rome before the fall….

  • writeblock

    that flow from the failure to control union disorder:

    1. The unions sent a clear message to intimidate other states not to do likewise. In effect they said you can expect this kind of craziness if you follow Wisconsin’s example. Governors dread above all else the kind of disorder Walker faced.

    2. The left was politically galvanized by the prolonged chaos. The more it escalated, the more determined it was to get even at any cost. That kind of political unity is worth more than money in future elections. It should have been nipped in the bud at the outset.

  • http://pocketchangeproductions.net/ anotherindyfilmguy

    but if he tells his attorneys not to enforce the law after someone there prepares a suit then hOpefully Holder or his boss will be impeached for not doing their jobs in accordance with the law.

  • aesthete

    but generally speaking, a free market will correct their excesses. (The Big Three would have either gone bankrupt or restructured long ago if not for consistent bailouts, for example.) Public sector unions are so harmful precisely because the areas that they work for are insulated from the market on a permanent basis. This is one reason why privatization of government functions is so opposed, despite its many benefits in various areas: the conditions created by unions and their boosters have made them hopelessly un-competitive even in a mixed-market where they would still have the advantage as far as subsidy goes.

  • caboose

    the letter needs to be fired immediately. To do otherwise is to bow to a police state tactic. To leave thugs police and firemen on the payroll who will refuse to do their job during an emergency, is criminal in itself. Fire the thugs!

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Trade unions do absolutely nothing with regard to training and the quality of the workforce. If anything, they’ve acted affirmatively to reduce the quality of the workforce through draconian work rules and their focus on making it virtually impossible to discipline or fire employees. In addition, they are the single most corrupt force in the country working with pensions and have been in the forefront of promoting a government takeover of the health care system.

    Trade unions have long ago outlived their usefulness (making a leap of faith that they every were useful) and are corrupt entities that do nothing for the “worker” and are inhibitors of the market’s ability to make productivity gains necessary to both grow the economy and provide high quality jobs for our citizens.

    If you want a concrete example of this, just look at the automotive industry. The number of people employed in the industry hasn’t so much fallen, they’ve just moved from unionized jobs in the rust belt to the free market economy of southern states. Additionally, there is a reason why the only healthy automotive companies in the US are foreign manufacturers. The UAW, in conjunction with gutless and totally complicit management – primarily at GM, but Chrysler and Ford are guilty too – have built a permanent rot into the infrastructure of US automobile manufacturers.

  • writeblock

    They can trash the capitol building, threaten legislators’ lives, intimidate business owners–and Walker does nothing about it. He doesn’t even call them on it. If it’s the Madison politicians who are derelict, Walker needs to get on their cases. I’m so weary of GOP wimpishness.

  • writeblock

    Cuomo arrested 17 the first time they blocked entrances to his capitol building. Where is the criticism of Walker on this? The way he handled bill passage should not obscure the fact that he was derelict in dealing with the unions. Madison was a dangerous precedent that was just short of Brown Shirt Crystal Night violence. Government leadership includes imposing order when intimidation tactics are used by unruly mobs. Those protesters were not polite tea partiers– they were thugs itching for an excuse to cause a riot.

  • Vegas_Rick

    I own a small training consulting company. The Carpenters International Training Center is one of my clients. They do an excellent job of training their members and they work with manufacturers to ensure the training is the most up to date possible.

    Granted, they have the same mentality as other unions and do the same types of despicable things, but a LOT of unions dues money goes to training their members.

  • Vegas_Rick

    Don’t confuse manufacturing and service unions with the actual trade unions; carpenters, pipefitters, glaziers, iron workers etc. You’re right manufacturing and service unions, much like public unions do NOTHING to improve the worker or the work force.

  • aesthete

    unions are essentially a monopoly on labor in their given sector. Monopolies attempt to maximize profits by selling their good (in this case, labor) for more than it would go for in a competitive market, which lowers the output of goods sold in that market. They then pocket the difference between the marginal cost of labor and the price. Unions do the same thing: they raise the price of labor at the expense of employment; the costs that they impose on hiring an additional unit of labor makes it hard for businesses to hire more workers. They use their power to pocket some of the profits for themselves and (if it’s a more altruistic union) their members.

    As with most monopolistic practices, this is untenable in the long-run in a competitive market, as the non-union employers have a competitive advantage over union shops. Thus, it really only works in the case of an inherently monopolistic market (very rare in the real world), or when government sets up barriers to entry and uses other methods to make it harder for non-monopolies to compete. Even when it does work, it comes at the cost of higher unemployment and underemployment, and a less efficient market in general. ‘Becker is actually right, and the evidence that unions were ever a good thing is scant (though certainly, the motivations of union leaders in the past were less craven than they are today).

  • Vegas_Rick

    I know what unions are. I know the negative impacts they have on society, business and the workforce. I was responding to this statement from becker:

    “Trade unions do absolutely nothing with regard to training and the quality of the workforce.”

    That statement and that statement alone is the subject of my comment. And I stand by it. I encourage you to visit two construction sites, one residential and one commercial. The residential “carpenters” will be mainly illegal immigrants and the commercial carpenters will be union. Check out the quality of the workmanship, it will be evident even to a layman.

    I am not a union supporter, they are antithetical to everything I believe in. But that doesn’t change the fact that most trade unions do a good job of training their apprentices. And, by the way, the UAW is not a trade union.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    And I did lump ‘em all together. With respect to actual “trade” unions they do a pretty good job of real training. My only problem with them is their retirement plans and the access of the Democrats and organized crime to the cash.

  • Vegas_Rick

    they have the same entitlement mentality as all unions, there members are reliably Democrats, and their retirement plans are, on average, 40% or more underfunded. And a boatload of the dues money goes to the Dems.

  • aesthete

    Sorry if you felt that I was lecturing you, as that wasn’t my intent. (Even if it had been my intent, does it matter given that my post was on-topic, correct in its specifics, and it added to the discussion?) I didn’t say anything about the UAW in my post on trade unions, btw; I’m pretty sure that was ‘becker.

    Nevertheless, the distinguishing feature of all unions (trade, public sector, and manufacturing included) is their monopoly power when it comes to labor (or at least, their attempt to achieve such): this occasionally helps their members, but not consumers, businesses, or society in any measurable sense. Since you have more experience than I do (read: any experience whatsoever :) ) in carpentry training, I’ll take it as a given that you know enough about the unions in that sector to say that some have good training programs. (For that matter, my aunt, who is the VP of the second-largest teachers’ union in NY, claims that the training that they offer is top-notch, and I believe her.) I would still note that what they provide can be provided elsewhere for under the cost of asphyxiating business and reducing employment. (I’m guessing that you agree with me there.)

  • aesthete

    It seems to me that law enforcement unionization presents conflicts of interest and needlessly exacerbates already extant problems like the “blue wall of silence”. The military is not unionized, and for good reason: it is a special institution which as an institution cannot brook the problems presented by a union. The police have also been recognized as such an institution: its officers are considered to be police officers 24/7. Our safety should not be forfeit to collective bargaining, nor should our security be put aside for a non-specific “right to strike”. Given the OP’s contents, it’s a shame that Walker didn’t include law enforcement in his provisos for public unions, as it seems that law enforcement is the last place where we should tolerate union shenanigans.

  • earlgrey

    their usualy flunkies aren’t too thrilled with the article. If you have the time, you might want to check it out.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110313/us_ac/8054678_violent_threats_against_wisconsin_republicans_increase

  • lisamiller

    I wouldn’t do business with this Bank either but not for the reasons the Police and Fire note.

    This sounds like a RICO violation.

  • lisamiller

    I wouldn’t do business with this Bank either but not for the reasons the Police and Fire note.

    This sounds like a RICO violation.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    …without researching it first. M&I Bank took no sides in the first place, which makes your RICO accusation frankly inane.

    If you’re not going to inform yourself to at least a minimal level, I would take it as a personal favor if you didn’t comment on my posts.

  • banzaibob

    Unless you are a Republican or a conservative.

  • johnhandel

    It may surprise you to discover this, but Unions are specifically EXEMPTED from RICO. (Yes, unions are protected from prosecution for the same bullying, violent, threatening behavior that lands gangsters in jail.)

    While there are laws being violated, because of this deliberate legal blind spot, they aren’t violating some of the easiest and best to prosecute.

  • popster

    Remember that, it only hurts for a little while, it will be a better situation when it’s over!

  • spiritofreagan

    A policeman and Fireman’s first allegiance has to be to the job and the people they serve. In my opinion these groups of people and for that matter any group of public servants should not be allowed to belong to any Union. It is counter productive to the people they serve. Another example of wht unions are about and that is socialism, Communism, liberalism. to me there is no difference even though I know the basic difference the bottom line of these groups is to control the people. Unions really don’t have anything to do with workers rights. They are only in the Legalized Mafia to get money andything else is secondary to that goal.

  • johnhandel

    The threat of this kind of response is exactly why Walker PUBLICLY stated that Police and Firefighters were not included in the legal change on collective bargaining.

    Personally, I say abolish it for all public sector unions, period, then fire all of them that fail to do their job. (That includes if those in power fail to push their people to work, or fail to fire those refusing to work.) Additionally, make sure anyone fired for such disgraceful conduct cannot collect their pensions or benefits. They get COBRA, that’s it. (If you are fired for documented bad behavior, you don’t get to collect unemployment, I say the same for polic and fire that deliberately refuse to do their job.)

    It woould not take long for them to fall into line, especially since any future employment checks could include the statement: “Yes, they worked for the police department. They were fired for bad behavior and refusal to do their job.”

    There are also millions of unemployed in this country that would jump at a job opportunity, even if it is about the 8th or 9th most dangerous job in the country.

  • johnhandel

    It seems to me that you misunderstood this comment. (Or else I did.)

    The way I read it, lisamiller wouldn’t do business with the bank, either, but for reasons different from the spurious reasons the union gave.

    Rather than being leveled at the bank, the RICO accusation here is being leveled at the police and fire fighters. At least that is the way that I understood it.

    That is a statement with which I agree, though last I checked, unions were excluded, by definition, from those that could violate RICO. (Odd, and very bad, amendment of the law.)

  • genehowe

    I just received an e-mail from Obama web-site, signed by Nancy Polosi,
    Stating that the elected Republicans of Wisconsin ‘pulled a fast one’.
    My question would be, who was on the ‘job’ and who ran out?
    If these ‘public service empoyee’s want to run out…replace them with
    those willing to do what is needed. In order to ‘get votes’, the democrats
    are in control of all unions and all unions are in control of democrats. Just
    go by any union hall, during elections and see all the election signs
    for democrats. The president should represent all the citizens and
    respect each states elected officials. This is not a time for ‘Chicago
    Bully Style Politics’. By the way, Nancy wanted me to ‘send her money’,
    to keep the union bosses in power. gene

  • SayNoToRINO

    http://www.thelaborers.net/HISTORY/violence_union_privilege.htm

    The link above describes how Union violence, including murder, is protected. Unbelievable. Is it any wonder these thugs act the way they do?

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    RICO is one of those overused terms, and I get annoyed when it’s overused – but if she wasn’t using it to go after the bank, then sorry and my bad.

  • mspector

    Because the only real power a union has is force, i.e., the ability to shut down an enterprise through a strike. Without that, the union is nothing but a talking-shop.

  • leefox

    The left has no honor.

    Not even the unionized police and firefighters who were specifically exempted from the new collective bargaining rules by Gov.Walker.

    All that matters is “solidarity”, comrade, not how deeply into bankruptcy they are driving us.

    What will they Extort from us next?