A hopefully helpful ‘stimulus’ analogy.


I would like to offer this analogy, for anybody out there dealing with an individual or individuals who seem convinced that the problem with the 2009 ‘stimulus’ was that it was not large enough:

Imagine, if you will, you have a friend, and he’s a drunk.  And he’s in trouble: he needs five hundred bucks to get out from under his bills, but he doesn’t have it, and things get a little worse every month because of it.  So you give him five hundred bucks… and he goes on an epic bender.  Now, here’s the question: would he have been fine if you had given him five hundred bucks for the bender, and another five hundred for his bills?  Or a thousand?  Of course not: doubling or tripling the money that you gave him would have just meant that he would have gone on a longer bender, with better ingredients.

Because that’s what drunks do.  That’s why they’re considered drunks.

Just in case the analogy is unclear: far too many people who espouse Keynesian economic theory (more accurately, their interpretation of Keynesian economic theory) seem to be doing so under the assumption that you can trust the government to spend revenue in a rational, objective, and non-partisan fashion.  As both the stimulus and Obamacare shows, this is not a particularly sensible assumption – particularly when the Democrats are in charge of the process.  Government spending is inherently wasteful at best, and corrupting at worst.   And the effects get worse, the more you spend.

Hope this helps.

Moe Lane (crosspost)

PS: I apologize to drunks everywhere for comparing them to the federal government.


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Hope & Change? How about "Grope for Spare Change"

loganyung (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 9:11AM EDT (link)

I like the analogy, but, I think we’re seeing parallels of a teenager who gets his or her first credit card from parents. If the parents won’t bail the teenager out after an irresponsible spending binge or threaten to take the card away, the teenager is likely to throw a tantrum,and the tantrum will result in extreme statements and idle threats like “I hate you”, “You don’t love me”, and “I’m going to die”,

The left has been over-spending our money for as long as I can remember, and the Congress, the market, and the Fed have been bailing them out. It’s time to take the credit card away, and it won’t be pretty for a while.

For Obama, I see him as a reckless teenager who got his first drivers license, his first credit card, and achieved the drinking age all in the same day. We’re witnessing a massive bender in all dimensions.

 

A Slightly Different But Similar Analogy . . .

XOT Tuesday, August 9th at 9:32AM EDT (link)

I have a slightly different analogy that further ties into the big government more broadly. I suggested to my wife that the POTUS and D’s approach to the deficit was like an addict who wastes all of his paycheck on his drug addiction to the point that his income can’t keep up with his use, and the solution of his parents and friends is for him to GET ANOTHER JOB so he can afford his habit!

 

A Slightly Different But Similar Analogy . . .

XOT Tuesday, August 9th at 9:32AM EDT (link)

I have a slightly different analogy that further ties into the big government more broadly. I suggested to my wife that the POTUS and D’s approach to the deficit was like an addict who wastes all of his paycheck on his drug addiction to the point that his income can’t keep up with his use, and the solution of his parents and friends is for him to GET ANOTHER JOB so he can afford his habit!

 

An addict doesn't care where the money comes from

lineholder (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 10:38AM EDT (link)

as long as it enables their addiction.

Let the left call us anything they like. This is a citizen-led intervention to stop the spending addiction of our government.

Maybe we should start calling ourselves “Spendaholics Anonymous”.

 

Let's not attack Keynes

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 10:45AM EDT (link)

by attributing the economic policies of recent years to his theories. Remember all of Keynes assumptions rested on the basis that government would run balanced budgets with very little debt during non-contractionary periods. Thus, when demand collapsed (such as happened during the credit crisis) government could step in and stop a negative feedback loop (and because they normally were operating under balanced conditions, the extra spending wouldn’t get hampered by the diminishing returns that we encounter today with all of our constant deficit spending (ie we get much less bang for each additional dollar spent).

Wait, you 're defending the New Deal now? (nt)

Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 11:04AM EDT (link)

.

RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

It's ok Neil, he plays an Economy Major on the net. nt

gekster (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 11:07AM EDT (link)

nt

They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.

We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway

I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”

oops. Should be 'Economics Major'. nt

gekster (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 11:11AM EDT (link)

another nt, and more coffee, please.

They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.

We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway

I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”

 
 

I would happily defend

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 11:50AM EDT (link)

parts of the “New Deal” (ie some of the deficit spending parts as opposed to the regulatory and new policy parts) and would further argue that Keynes theory was proven to be correct (at some expenditure level) with WWII. Just because we disagree with how FDR spent the money doesn’t make the theory of money being spent in general wrong.

That's how we know you're not one of us, Death of the Donkey

Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 11:57AM EDT (link)

The New Deal was fascist.

RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

So

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 1:55PM EDT (link)

employing a slack labor force that the private sector had no use for to build national parks and museums was fascist/?

I don’t disagree that many parts of the New Deal were horrible policy (farm policy, industrial policy, etc), but the public works program was most definitely not a fascist endeavor (and neither was Hoover Dam for that matter).

Was it the CCC or the WPA that the Supremes disliked?

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 1:58PM EDT (link)

I forget.

As for the “slack labor pool”, while one existed then and one surely exists today, that doesn’t mean government should come along and fill the void, especially using borrowed money.

Mew

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Caveat Suffragator

Had we not run up a massive debt

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:17PM EDT (link)

over the past 30 years, borrowing money at 2.4% for a ten year term would be a pretty good investment for an upgrade of our public infrastructure.

Had your aunt been plumbed a bit different, she'd be your uncle....

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:32PM EDT (link)

As for upgrading the public infrastructure, I like a fee-for-service approach. Toll roads, for instance, or the local policy that requires one purchased “tag” per trash can per week.

When I spend money, I want an itemized receipt. I see no reason to expect different from my tax dollars.

Mew

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acat- It appeared that

Scope (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:42PM EDT (link)

you were going to give an anatomy and physiology lesson there for a moment. I was going to remind you to include the latest study done on the DNA of Liberals. They are born that way, and no cure has yet been found for the disease.

Scope - Nope, this is a family friendly forum!

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:46PM EDT (link)

Unlike the dens of hate on the Left where all kinds of unsanitary and biologically improbable (and certainly uncomfortable!) things are discussed…

I understand they’re also partial to giving offensive to christians, but I leave that to someone else to judge.

Mew

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Look, Death of the Donkey is defending radical leftism, again

Neil Stevens (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:33PM EDT (link)

Oh wait, that’s typical for DotD, and exactly what we expect by now.

RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules

Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.

“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder

 
 
 

death of the donkey, go back to huff po and troll

mikeymike143 (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:55PM EDT (link)

i cant believe someone is actually going to defend FDR’s new deal on this site. nt.

I am the Media Director for Tea Party Fort Lauderdale, America’s Longest Running Tea Party.

http://www.teapartyfortlauderdale.com/

Please click on our TPFL facebook page and ”like” us. http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Tea-Party-Fort-Lauderdale/187610141278242

I also own the second largest anti Ron Paul page for conservatives on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/If-you-love-the-Tea-Party-but-think-Ron-Paul-is-a-nut-please-friend-me/118960598172931

mikey, he ain't trolling. He just thinks....

gekster (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 7:47PM EDT (link)

he knows economics.
He plays an Economics Major on the net.
His game. Let him play it.

They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.

We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway

I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”

 
 
 
 

So, Keynes' work was based on a fallacy? Okay.

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 11:06AM EDT (link)

You said yourself that Keynes made an assumption that government would live within its’ means… and that’s rarely happened in the West since Keynes published.

Mew

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Not at all

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 11:52AM EDT (link)

at the time of his writing that was how governments did behave (and really afterward for at least a couple of decades (excluding WWII). It is only in the last 30 years or so that we have decided to go on the permanent deficit spending jolt to the economy.

So .. it's not Keynes' fault that his work is misused...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 11:56AM EDT (link)

any more than it’s Oppenheimer’s fault that his work was misused?

Mew

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Um so guns kill people, not people right?

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 1:52PM EDT (link)

to take your absurd analogy a bit further.

Nope. Firearms and Keynesian economics both kill people, when used by liars, theives, and murderers.

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 1:56PM EDT (link)

Which are you?

Mew

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Keynes wrote his theories

The_Gadfly (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 12:49PM EDT (link)

to provide justification for liberal fascists to change the style of Western governments. Everything that has followed is the result of those theories. Like Communism itself, it isn’t a problem with the theory not being properly implemented, it is that it has been and has come to its inevitable conclusion.

 
 
 

Keynes was not a credible economist

BigRedConservative (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 12:04PM EDT (link)

The core of his theories-government spending to boost investment-was wrong. He ignored inflation in his calculations, failed to take account of government funding of said spending, and discounted the effects of the private sector being undercut.

And, of course, the underlying bigger issues at stake-more government or less, more regulation of less, privatization or nationalization. The only people who support Keynes these days are people with a genuine ideological belief that greater government is good.

There is a line. On one side are collectivists, on the other is the free world. Please choose where you are. I certainly know where I am.

And two and two always makes a five
It’s the devil’s way now
There is no way out
You can scream and you can shout
It is too late now

Radiohead

I disagree

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 1:50PM EDT (link)

First, government is responsible for the infrastructure that can (and did in the past) make us more competitive (ie highways, ports, airports/etc) and all of that infrastructure is crumbling and far outdated when compared to what China/India have built in the last 10 years or so. I would hope we could all agree that improved infrastructure would make us more competitive in the global economy and that crumbling infrastructure makes us less competitive for new investments by companies.

Having said that, government is the only entity that is going to rebuild/improve said infrastructure.

Now, under normal economic conditions, government essentially cannot undertake said task because it would have a huge impact on inflation and crowd out other private investments (ie we couldn’t have contemplated a massive rebuild of the highway system in 2005 or 6). The only time government can do these things is under slack employment with low interest rates (ie like now) because it will not crowd out private investment and will have minimal impacts on inflation (plus, like a business, it is always better to make long term investments at lower interest rates). The economic reality of such an investment is that it would provide demand now (when we need it) and would also promote growth in the future through the lasting benefits of the projects. Much in the same way that the public works that essentially built our parks and museums during the depression provided employment to slack labor in the 30s, but have paid back any cost thousands of times over through revenues generated by those improved facilities by tourists over the last 70+ years.

When did Thomas Friedman get an account at RedState?

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:02PM EDT (link)

nt

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


You can ignore reality all you want

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:14PM EDT (link)

but if we don’t undertake a massive upgrade of our public infrastructure, all other policy will be moot when it comes to growing industry here.

Who is going to pay for a massive upgrade of our public infrastructure?

izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:19PM EDT (link)

All the people making $250,000 or more per year? Wouldn’t people making $25,000 a year also use the upgrade of our public infrastructure?

Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged

Well, the growth it would generate

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:39PM EDT (link)

would likely pay for a lot of it. And I want to stress again, that I am not suggesting that this is something we can afford to do now given our current finances, but something that should have been planned/allocated to a long time ago when we could.

 

Obviously, the spike in growth will more than cover it.

snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:40PM EDT (link)

Heck, anybody knows that.
Why, just yesterday, I talked to my credit card company and explained that since business was really slow, and I had plenty of time on my hands that I thought it would be a great time to upgrade the shop.
True, I am dragging more debt than I can make in a year right now, but I am paying only about 5% of my current proceeds directly into debt service, well, with the new gear, when it turns around I will be in the catbird seat.
The only problem is that I needed about the sum of an entire years gross receipts to do a meaningful upgrade… and cover my current obligations.
But as I had some handy ten year projections and I know already what a killing I will make in that period…
Everything in hunky dory!
And as soon as my wife and I return from our vacation / new car buying trip.. I will get started with the work of spending the money.
And all it cost me was a minior adjustment to my credit rating.

Look, when the economy takes off, I will buy that junk and hire somebody to put it in as I will be too busy to do it myself.

So the interstate highway system

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:55PM EDT (link)

had a negative return huh?

Without an upgrade to our infrastructure we are going to fall further behind the rest of the world. Either you believe that the US can still be a world economic power and you invest for the future or you are a pessimist and think we should just sell all of our assets now while we can still get a few pennies on the dollar for them.

We can fix them roads in a heartbeat.

snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:07PM EDT (link)

I have done a fair amount of government contracting where I fixed and built all kinds of stuff. There were several I questioned…
There is nothing wrong with this at all… why are we fixing it?
Sometimes, the only reason is:
They have the money.

 

The interstate highway system was, in part, a DoD project...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:29PM EDT (link)

Designed to move the hardware and personnel necessary to defend our country from one area to another efficiently.

As such, I haven’t much of a problem with it .. but let’s be honest about the origin, and about exactly what would happen if we did have a war *here* – access would be restricted and civilians wouldn’t be near the front of the line.

Same applies to FedEx, by the way – some percentage of their planes are in some sort of “civilian auxiliary pool” in case we need transport during a crisis.

I don’t have a problem with paying for infrastructure, but – and this is key – most of it should be funded at the State, not Federal level, and the Fed stuff had {darn} well better be justifiable as part of “defending the borders” or similarly clear Fed constitutional power. A federal “investment” in a roads-to-rails project in Cook County, IL does not meet this standard.

Mew

p.s. I’ve driven from coast to coast more than once, and from Copper Harbor to Naples, so it’s not like I haven’t used the highway system.. .I just understand that I’m not the critical group for whom it was built.

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Kowalski, not "roads to rails", "rails to trails". My bad.

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:31PM EDT (link)

(whacks head against desk)

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Caveat Suffragator

 
 
 
 
 

Whatever you say Thomas Friedman.

Aaron Gardner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:20PM EDT (link)

ntnt

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

“We’d be much better off if We The People had desired small government enough to keep it.” acat


 

When did Redstate become a home for statists like you?

BigRedConservative (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:51PM EDT (link)

When will you realize this isn’t about money? When will you realize this isn’t about affording government, this is about reducing government? When will you realize that we don’t want more government, more regulation, more misery?

Your views are (if possible) to the left of even Obama and the rest of the liberal brigade. Your delivery is incoherent. Your economics are just plain wrong. I’m ticking off the days until you finally shoot yourself in the foot and get kicked off this site for good. Or you could leave yourself, and save the moderators a good deal of their rather important time.

I have a weak heart, and I’m going to leave this discussion because your incessant liberal commenting has raised my blood pressure, and i have no intention of having a heart attack.

And two and two always makes a five
It’s the devil’s way now
There is no way out
You can scream and you can shout
It is too late now

Radiohead

Sorry, my economics are not wrong

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:57PM EDT (link)

And while you may not want any government, I actually like my infrastructure to not be falling apart and would like to be competitive for new economic development possibilities in our global world. You can lower taxes/regulation all you want, but if our infrastructure sucks, no company is going to locate here. There is nothing liberal about investing in America.

There's something very "liberal" in your attitude of proclaiming a "need"

Christopher Renner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:09PM EDT (link)

for infrastructure and your follow up glib proclamation that it “pays for itself” with growth. There’s no difference whatsoever between you and any of the Keynesian idiots who proclaimed that spending a trillion dollars in 2009 on basically invisible projects would keep unemployment under 8%.

Big difference

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:17PM EDT (link)

The Obama stimulus package was hardly Keynesian (unless you want to simplify Keynes to simply be all government deficit spending). The stimulus package was essentially 1/3 tax cuts (not really Keynesian and with no long term benefit), 1/3 state government stabilization (which did nothing more than move the state/local government cutbacks to now), and 1/3 other (which would include the “shovel-ready” projects, most of which were just repaving that was already planned).

A true investment in our infrastructure would have not only had a bigger immediate multiplier, but it would also have a much longer term benefit, as we would be better able to compete with all the new infrastructure China et al are building.

Do you actually think our infrastructure is adequate to compete globally with the rapidly developing world? If so, you must be from some parallel universe.

Since the Chinese infrastructure is proving to be crap...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:37PM EDT (link)

I don’t really see a problem here.

Or did you not hear that their “bullet train” has to go slower than Amtrak’s traditional train?

Mew

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Caveat Suffragator

To come to the (limited) defense of Death of the Donkey...

aesthete (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 4:40PM EDT (link)

there is a very strong case to be made economically for government as the provider of public goods — public goods being goods that are non-rivalrous (i.e., anyone can use them without preventing someone else from being able to use them) and non-exclusive (i.e., you can’t really stop other people from using those goods). While it’s pretty much impossible to find a perfectly public good, there are several goods that broadly fit this category. The military is the go-to example: not only is it impossible to prevent one citizen from having more or less “defense” than another citizen without a decline in sovereignty, defense does not go up in cost proportionate to the # of people being defended (at least, when it comes to defense from another nation-state). Infrastructure (roads and such) generally falls under this category, as well.

That said, there is nothing that says that this must be done at the federal level, or that our infrastructure is “crumbling” relative to other countries. There are specific areas in need of overhaul, but in general I would say the US’ infrastructure is good. The marginal improvements that can be made are somewhat minor outside of a few states and counties. IMO, of much more import to our long-term fiscal situation would be a re-evaluation of our regulatory and legal structures.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

I believe, asthete, that you are right.

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 4:44PM EDT (link)

and that I said something similar over here, in this thread.

I chose the examples of the interstate highway system and the tax break for FedEx, but the armed services are the basis for both of those.

Mew

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Well put, aesthete

Christopher Renner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:23PM EDT (link)

That’s the best summary of public goods that I’ve read in a while. It’ll be an enlightening read for the anarcho-capitalist strawmen that Death of the Donkey is arguing with.

:-)

 
 
 

China is building new infrastructure because they're a *developing* country

Christopher Renner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:40PM EDT (link)

The U.S. Interstate highway system has been basically complete since 1991. We’ve had a transcontinental railroad since 1869.

What “true investment” in infrastructure are you going to propose that’s going to have a benefit similar to past U.S. infrastructure projects, or current Chinese building?

And in Donkeyland, are we supposed to cut corners like the Chinese are doing as well?

Have you seen the empty Chinese cities?

snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:45PM EDT (link)

Entire cities.. nobody lives in them..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339536/Ghost-towns-China-Satellite-images-cities-lying-completely-deserted.html

Really… I have no idea what they are thinking.

 

China's development includes

Scope (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:49PM EDT (link)

at least a few new coal fired power plants each month to help meet their power needs. They never did go along with that whole Kyoto Protocol garbage. Even with the advances of clean coal technology, we are banning the construction of any new clean coal power plants in the US, because the Won says so, and the EPA will make it so.

One of my friends in Texas is anti-Perry over the EPA issue...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:51PM EDT (link)

I understand where he’s coming from, I like clean air, but I dislike freezing in the dark when there’s not enough electricity more…

Mew

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They should be FOR Perry over the EPA issue

izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:02PM EDT (link)

Why would they be anti-Perry over the EPA issue?

Don’t they understand what is going on?

EPA’s Mission Impossible: A Deadline to Destroy Domestic Energy

Rick Perry will tear the EPA to shreads. We will still have clean air & water.

Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged

You can see that, and I can see that, but ..

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:09PM EDT (link)

he’s bought into the idea that the EPA is a white knight, trying to keep the environment clean. Not sure he can be convinced otherwise in time for 2012, but .. I’m tryin’

Mew

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The democrats have always used the EPA

izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:37PM EDT (link)

As a political weapon.
Tell him about the Coal Mines that will shut down.
The Power plants that will be off line.
If the EPA is left unchecked then the Feds will hold all the power.
It must be de-funded and dis-banded.
Corporations will not run amuck and foul the water & air.
Most companies exceed the limits set anyway.

Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged

 

My question to him

Menlo (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 7:12PM EDT (link)

Should it not be of greater concern that the EPA is allowing municipalities to taint the water supply with industrial waste under the guise of “protecting kids’ teeth?”

“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter

 
 
 

acat- Your friend in TX

Scope (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 7:48PM EDT (link)

is apparently an environmentalist. TX has been on the pollution and Nitrous Oxide emission goal since at least 2000. Perry has brought lawsuits against EPA because they just keep moving the goal posts. TX has reduced ozone pollutants, and Nitrous Oxide, a product of vehicles, on Perry’s watch. TX is an oil drilling state, and a state with refineries, as well as coal powered energy plants. If one wants to live in an environmental bubble, wouldn’t the best argument be to move to a state that is as air pure as can be with air quality. There always was a trade off between the EPA Clean Air and Water Act and the Industrialization that made this country the greatest most prosperous nation on earth. Many many federal tax dollars, as well as private dollars, have gone into making the country more clean and hospitable. There are some that won’t be happy until we are living with candles, eating nothing more than sprouts, and walk or bicycle to work.

 
 
 
 
 
 

How do you suggest we pay for your infrastructure projects

Christopher Renner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:12PM EDT (link)

Oh Great Economist? Let’s hear specifics.

I thought the highways were largely funded by fuel tax..

snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:17PM EDT (link)

Sort of a pay by the mile you drive them tax…
Do you suppose that tax isn’t enough to cover the job?
They would never think of blowing infrastructue money.

They were, snowshooze

Christopher Renner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:30PM EDT (link)

until Congress started diverting the gas tax funds to pay for mass transit starting in 1981, as a sop to the anti-car crowd.

Then why is there so little here?

Menlo (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 10:53PM EDT (link)

It is woefully inadequate in much of north Texas, the super congested highways can expand no more, and everyone is blaming the state and local governments.

They have not done much to curb car use. People around here cannot control their appetites for enormous (and unsightly) trucks, SUVs, and vans. To make matters worse, most people opt for lengthy commutes to work. I don’t see any chance of that changing.

“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter

2 answers, Menlo

Christopher Renner (Diary) Wednesday, August 10th at 12:20PM EDT (link)

1. Federal transit funding in practice goes to the projects that are most expensive to build, rather than to the ones that transport the most people. For a detailed explanation of why, see Randal O’Toole’s “Gridlock” or “The Best Laid Plans”.

2. Why should getting people out of their cars be the goal, rather than just alleviating traffic congestion? There are a number of very cost-effective ways to alleviate traffic, such as increasing peak hour tolls, coordinating traffic signals, and added bus or van service.

I didn't say it was

Menlo (Diary) Wednesday, August 10th at 2:05PM EDT (link)

I was responding to the comment that it was. Bus and van service would get people out of their cars though.

I’d actually support a lot of these government projects in theory; it just seems they always end up not only not helping but actually doing the very opposite in practice. All the “environmental” regulations and taxes actually cause more pollution and environmental problems, and they ironically subsidize the wealthy at the expense of the poor to boot. That’s what “liberals” want?

“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter

 
 
 
 
 

As I stated above

Death_of_the_Donkey (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:20PM EDT (link)

we probably missed our chance to pay for them through normal borrowing for capital projects at very low interest rates because we had run up huge debts over the last 10 years and even bigger deficits in the last 3. The easiest way to pay for that type of long term improvement would have been with a bond at a very favorable interest rate sometime in late 08 early 09 (instead of the stimulus we got).

We have the ability to forward fund our projects here

snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:30PM EDT (link)

In Alaska, yet we bonded out.
A part of the argument was the money was cheap.
Another part was that carrying some debt was really good for the credit rating. Plus we get some matching dollars back out of the Federal Government. ( Those came with serious strings that will require immortal government program ventures )
Now with two major infrastructure stimulus fiascos behind us..
and the roads are still falling apart? Where did that fuel tax go?
There has to be a leak in this boat somewhere because I am bailing as fast as I can and we are still sinking.
We passed the biggest budget we have ever seen here.
Alaska is becoming Californicated.

 

In other words, you're admitting your idea doesn't work anymore

Christopher Renner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 4:47PM EDT (link)
 
 

Also, I have to disagree with Aaron's identification of you

Christopher Renner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:26PM EDT (link)

I think you’re more like Barney Frank. He has the same silly tendency to claim that nothing gets done without federal funding. Because no one’s ever built a railroad, or a limited access superhighway, or put out fires using volunteers, apparently.

Kowalski

Christopher Renner (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 3:27PM EDT (link)

It should be obvious, but the point of the above comment was that those things DON’T require, (nor are they helped by) federal involvement.

 
 
 

Gosh, Big Red...

snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:59PM EDT (link)

DOD is valuable to me in that he does bring up issues and food for thought, which fuels the conversation.
If we were all in the Choir, well…we’d all run around patting ourselves on the back That gets old rather quickly.
So, when DOD or anyones here raises a contrary point, I get to see the respective counterpoints of all those who might chime in.
So long as it doesn’t get too wild, I am ok with it.

So .. DotD is a pinata? Why didn't you say so!

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 4:49PM EDT (link)

(cat goes looking for his cricket bat)

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Caveat Suffragator

acat, take a look at the link lineholder just noted

Melody Warbington (rwm52) (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:21PM EDT (link)

in another thread.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/08/progressive-groups-unveil_n_921520.html

The first item in the new Contract for the American Dream authored by Van Jones, Justin Ruben (Executive Director of MoveOn.org), and Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.), among others, is “Invest in America’s Infrastructure.”

Now where have I heard that before? Anyone?

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things. (John 4:25)

Schakowsky needs to go. She's been off her meds for a while...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:28PM EDT (link)

Historically, when there’s a need infrastructure, entities lobby government to build it.

The Erie Canal, the Soo Locks, the Chicago River locks, the Chicago deep tunnel flood control system… In each case, government built it, but at the insistence of private or semi-private interests.

Somewhere along the way, this has gotten turned around and we now have government being lobbied to build something – *anything* – in order to keep feeding the union hangers-on and stimulating the economy.

Just what infrastructure do they propose to build out?

Mew

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I saw that... it gave me a perspective...

snowshooze (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:47PM EDT (link)

It is pure communism. Job stimului = communism in it’s purest form.
Infrastructure investment is their cover.

Karl Marx may have been onto something...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:56PM EDT (link)

Communism being what Capitalism devolves into, specifically.

(the Leninist/Stalinist crowd usually skipped over that part of Marx’s writing)

We’ve stopped teaching our children how to think for themselves, why should we be surprised that they’re not?

Mew

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Everything you just talked about

izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:16PM EDT (link)

Would be better done at the state level. All I want the feds to do is defend America and secure the borders. Nothing else they do adds value.

Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged

DoftheD should make a visit to Dallas

izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:53PM EDT (link)

You want to see construction of “infrastructure”? We have it going on in spades.
And you know what? Most of that is construction on Toll Roads. I would rather pay tolls I use something than to have blanket tax raises for something I might never use. Of course the lower income folk complain. They drive on the free service side roads while I blow by them at 70MPH. I don’t mind paying a few bucks to get to my jobs on time because I am usually billing $100 per hour once I get there.

Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged

Noticed those when I was in Dallas...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 5:59PM EDT (link)

well, technically the Plano edge of the city.

It’s a very nice design – interstate-grade surface roads on the outside, tollway in the middle.

Of course, since Texas DOT hasn’t linked their transponder system to any of the other State systems (or the big-east EZpass system) I stuck on the surface roads, but .. still. For those that live there, it’s nice.

Mew

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The TollTag system is all RFID & video monitored

izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:05PM EDT (link)

Even if you don’t have a Tolltag you can still drive on the tollroads. They will snap a pic of your license plate and send you a bill….
I guess if you are out of state they don’t care. And of course if you were wanted by the police I guess you would not want to drive on a video monitored road. LOL

Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged

Illinois is monitored.. the bill here is $42 ...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:12PM EDT (link)

for driving on the tollway without paying the toll.

I have this friend from the corn fields who wasn’t sure what those arches over the expressway were for… he found out when he got the bill!

Mew

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You still have toll booths?

izoneguy (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:16PM EDT (link)

Even if you drove though a toll booth here in the past the fine was maybe $25??
Difference between TX and IL.

Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged

Most toll booths have been replaced with archways and transponders, just like Texas...

acat (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:19PM EDT (link)

but most of the plazas the archways replaced and a lot of entrance ramps still have places for cash-only drivers, either the tin-foil-hat crowd who don’t want the government to know they drove on the tollway or the out-of-staters who don’t have transponders…

Mew

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Keynes won't work- especially now

mrlord4459 Tuesday, August 9th at 12:51PM EDT (link)

Whatever merit Keynesian models have, it seems to me, their best chance to work is in an economy that produces most of its consumer goods. I think that those $400-$500 tax rebates might have a stimulating effect if all the small ticket consumer goods were manufactured here. With 90% of it made offshore how can it? We only stimulate China.

Large scale government stimulus might stimulate if the transaction is complex enough; meaning millions of component parts such as in a bomber or aircraft carrier. In my mind, most public works projects while very expensive, are not complex enough to stimulate in any kind of worthwhile amount.

The biggest stimulus we could probably unleash now is Reverse Keynesian Economics. The 1000# gorilla in the room in government. Reduce its drain on the economy.

Simple business economics- government is overhead. Has any business ever been saved by always increasing the overhead and never increasing production or sales. Overhead staff and costs are a necessary evil to a smooth and efficient running business. They are in support of the means of production not the reason for production. Same with government it is a drain, necessary for function but must be kept at a minimum.

 

Some people, such as Thomas Friedman and

romeg Tuesday, August 9th at 1:11PM EDT (link)

oh, Barack Obama are fond of expressing envy of how “efficient” the Chicoms are at “Getting Things Done”: A mandate is issued and the thing mandated happens. Boom.

A few days ago I was listening to a report about a Chinese citizen who was ranting about how the Chinese Government had pushed their Bullet Train down their throats and how one of the bureaucrats had stolen “two billion” from the program and put it into a foreign bank, out of the reach of the Chinese Government. The reporter telling the story did a quick conversion calculation and said “Wow. That is about $30 million U.S.” The Chinese citizen corrected him “NO. It was $2 Billion U.S. that he stole!”

So much for the efficiency of government by fiat and force of arms.

My point, made many MANY times since the election in November is this: Without the messiness of our republican form of government, there would have been no debate over the debt limit, we would still have gotten the downgrade but we would have even more massive debt piled onto that which even our grandchildren will have difficulty repaying unless the currency is inflated to the point where it is nearly worthless.

In MY lifetime, the value of the dollar as measured in the cost of a home or a car has fallen by about 80%. By the time Obama leaves office, we will be fortunate indeed if the value of the dollar has not declined another 50%.

Steve Wynn, though too late in coming to his epiphany, was exactly right: Obama is the worst thing to happen to the U.S. Economy in HIS lifetime, and mine as well.

“Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” – C. S. Lewis

 

"Spending" vs. Transfer Payments

Spartan4Life (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 2:59PM EDT (link)

I don’t think the majority of the Federal budget qualifies as spending in the traditional or even Keynesian sense. Things like Food Stamps, Unemployment Insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, even Social Security are just transfers of one set of people’s money to another and it is ludicrous for Barack and Princess Pelosi to continuously go out there and claim that these are great things for the macro economy. The problem with a “jobs program’ is that it is always proposed in addition to all this stupid stuff we already do. You want to build roads and bridges? Let’s take the money allocated for the unemployed. Or the people that cannot pay for their own food. Or that don’t have health insurance. That actually might make some sense.

I know this will rile up the “There you go killing grandma crowd” but the fact is that we invest the majority of our money in our least productive citizens: the elderly and the long term unemployed.

Here's a radical suggestion:

romeg Tuesday, August 9th at 4:20PM EDT (link)

The Libs like to call these programs “insurance”.

Why not stop pretending that that is what they are and establish true, actuarially-based insurance programs into which people put those dollars that are now inter-generational transfer payments and put it all on a sound financial footing for future generations. IOW quit pretending that Government can do this, take it out of the hands of politicians and fix it permanently. I’m not talking about adding something, simply re-structure what is there into what it was billed as being in the first place and deny the politicians access to the money.

“Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” – C. S. Lewis

Mr. Ponzi Would Be Proud

Spartan4Life (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 6:40PM EDT (link)

This is no different than what happens in the Private Sector. About 15 years ago my company figured out that defined benefit pensions were not sustainable as retirees were living longer and the company could no longer afford the benefit. So they just did away with it. Current employees were allowed to stay in the current program or switch. New employees were offered a “lump sum” benefit a 401K. One of the benefits they touted was that whatever you were able to put in they would match and that if you decided to leave the company you could take your lump sum with you. This is no different than “privatizing” SS. I have a 23, 18, and 17 year old just starting their journeys. There is no doubt that they would rather have the ability to make and save their own money for retirement. Instead the government will confiscate 12.5% of their incomefor all their earning years to buy off the votes of current senior citizens. And if they die before they reach SS age they will not have one red cent to give to their heirs. Talk about a devil’s bargain! Unfortunately, todays politicians don’t want to be exposed for their financial mismanagement of the SS “Trust Fund”. So anytime someone tries to transition SS to something better they will be accused of being evil incarnate.

 
 

Spartan4Life, I'll wager that

Melody Warbington (rwm52) (Diary) Tuesday, August 9th at 4:47PM EDT (link)

my 83 year old dad and 80 year old mother, even at their age are more productive citizens than most of the 50% of citizens who pay nothing in income tax. Yes, they collect a small amount of Social Security, but mostly live on my dad’s pension, what they saved and the income he makes still working part time, not to mention the dollars they pour into the economy spending on their grandchildren and great-grandchildren and their personal contributions to their local community.

As I’ve said before, I’m not counting on any Social Security, and I favor reform, but we certainly shouldn’t pull the rug out from under those who are too elderly to go back into the work force full time.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things. (John 4:25)