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VA AG Ken Cuccinelli calls for primary ballot reform, write-in option.

This just keeps getting better and better for the Virginia GOP, doesn’t it? Via Ballot Access News, first we get the Attorney General for Virginia pointing out that the requirements for ballot access are far too restrictive:

I would throw out for consideration that we should lower our requirements to 100 legitimate signatures per congressional district.

Let’s face it, absent a serious write-in challenge from some other candidate, Virginia won’t be nearly as ‘fought over’ as it should be in the midst of such a wide open nomination contest. Our own laws have reduced our relevance. Sad.

…and suggesting that a write-in ballot is possible. Which, as a lot of people with perhaps vested interests in there not being any more candidates on the ballot would tell you, is: a, impossible; and b, so mind-bogglingly obviously impossible that anybody who suggests that such a thing would be possible would be as dumb as Newt Gingrich. Of course, some of the people who are most pushing the ‘dumb as Newt Gingrich’ bit are perhaps not entirely clear about Gingrich’s actual position:

“And we hope to launch a write-in campaign. We’re getting an amazing number of people who … believe Virginians ought to have the right to choose and shouldn’t be restricted to two people.”

When a reporter noted that state law prohibits write-in votes in Virginia primaries, Gingrich said: “There’s time for them to change it. If something’s wrong, they ought to fix it.”

Via Virginia Virtucon, and note that the Times-Dispatch article quoted above went into the details about how difficult it would be to change the law in this case. To summarize: the time limits in place would require emergency legislation and a super-majority in order to get the bill to pass in time… it’d still be a good idea to do it, frankly, but it’d be harder to do it than it looks. Which point lets me segue to another amusing/annoying aspect of this entire sorry mess. To wit: it’s amazing just how many people online are suddenly claiming expert knowledge in the arcane field of primary ballot access for one specific, only somewhat important, American state. Particularly since none of them would have been able to pass a test on the subject prior to – and I’m being charitable, here – December 23rd. And, honestly: it’s reasonable enough to suggest that, say, my own pre-Christmas inexperience with this level of Virginian state election law might be a factor in whether or not to take my opinions seriously. It becomes less reasonable to so suggest that when said inexperience is shared by the former Speaker of the House. It enters “unreasonable” territory – except, perhaps, for the most partisan – when the actual Attorney General of Virginia is equally inexperienced. Put another way: after a certain level of the difficulty in navigating the system you should probably start looking at the system itself, and not the people who are having the difficulty.

Final note, because it needs to be: the day will likely end (deadline’s at 5 PM, IIRC) with the VA GOP only certifying Romney and Paul for the primary ballot… which is entirely their call to make. A lot of people are trying to argue that the party’s hands are tied by state law, which is precisely backward: implementation of this particular aspect of state law is controlled by the parties… as can be seen by the fact that the Virginia GOP is openly waiving requirements of the certification process for Mitt Romney in the first place. There are people who really, really, really don’t want you to think of the implications of that…

Moe Lane (crosspost)

PS: A note of personal irony? I’m not a Gingrich supporter; I’m a Perry one, and if they had kept Gingrich on the ballot I’d probably have just winced and moved, as they say, on.

PPS: It would be remiss of me to not note that Ken Cuccinelli is going to be running for Governor of Virginia in 2013… which means, against current Lt. Governor Bill Bolling in the primary. Lt. Gov. Bolling is, of course, Mitt Romney’s Virginia campaign chairman, which is not so much evidence of a conspiracy to make Romney the only person on the ballot (trust me, the VA GOP would prefer this to be Romney/Gingrich; from what I’m hearing, having Paul be the alternative appalls them, too) as it is a warning that this affair may turn into a fight-by-proxy.

COMMENTS

  • kinggold

    The failure of two supposedly good and organized candidates to follow stringent ballot access requirements is somehow the fault of the Virginia GOP. What else is new?

    You could outline the sins of the VA GOP and their oh-so-terrible ballot access rules until you’re blue in the face, but the point still remains; a well-organized campaign would have qualified for the ballot. And two well-organized campaigns did.

  • expanding_man

    If not, Gingrich is toast as a national candidate. I can’t imagine that voters in other states will vote for Gingrich knowing that he won’t get any of his home state’s significant amount of delegates. If he can’t got on the VA ballot this will be a death blow to the already shakey Gingrich Campaign.

    I’ve heard he cut the number of stops in half in his last minute Iowa tour. I think he may realize that the end is near for him.

    We’ll see if the VA GOP can be convinced to change the rules.

  • seanl

    Despite all of his flaws (and there are many) he is the only person in this race with enough balls to take it to Obambi. I have no interest in another McCain/Dole wimp screwing this up for Republicans. And make no mistake: Romney is a wimp.

    As Gingrich once said, the only reason why Romney is not a career politician is because he is such a loser.

  • angryguy77

    The VA GOP changed the how the game is called just like an NBA ref in the 4th quarter.

    The way the establishment is ramming mittens down our throat is the reason I will most likely not vote for him if he’s the nominee.

    I don’t understand why we are even having a primary with how this game is being fixed in Mitt’s favor.

    I realize Obama is not good, but I won’t be forced to vote for a softer version either.

  • lineholder

    then you remain ignorant, right?

    Can someone explain exactly what a fight-by-proxy would entail, please? And thank you.

  • expanding_man

    My understanding is that, due to a court case in VA, the VA GOP is being forced to actually make sure the petition signatures, etc. comply with the actual rules. In the past the party didn’t enforce the rules. After the suit, the party must see that the rules are followed or face another slam duck suit againt it for failing to do so. You may find it worthwile to read up on the Osborne case.

    They have no choice. By the way, I’m no Romney fan.

  • snowshooze

    With the correct encouragement.
    I do not believe they have much of a choice.
    If they don’t fix this, I will be there with my marshmellows whilst they are burned at the stake. I’ll bet I could sell a truckload of the things, and weinie sticks and firewood would be on the other truck…

    So, I expect they are getting their backsides warmed by all comers right now. Perry and Gingrich may not have to handle this at all, but they best keep a hand in.

    I think they will make the ticket. I could be wrong.

  • teme

    Found some interesting stuff from 2007 from Red State archives about the validation of signatures and papers.

    There was full check for any mistakes in signatures and forms and procedures in 2008, and if after those the total of valid signatures fell below 10.5k or 450 per district, they were checked against RPV?s official voter list, if opposing campaign wanted to challenge those results and pay for the official voter list comparison. From what we have heard, it was the procedural validation alone that brought both Perry below 10k, which causes automatic drop out, so the address check that would have been enabled at 10.5k wouldn?t have been used anyway, so by 2008 standards Gingrich and Perry wouldn?t have been on the ticket either.

    This is probably why the all 6 Republican campaigns who got to the ballot collected those 15k signatures, the key persons knew the rules and collected what they were asked to collect.

    http://images.redstate.com/files/Guidelines%20for%20Observers.pdf

    http://images.redstate.com/files/Guidelines%20for%20Petition%20Verification.pdf

    http://images.redstate.com/files/RPV%202008%20Presidential%20Primary%20Petition%20Verification.pdf

    Here is observer invitation:

    From: Matt Wells
    Sent: Fri Dec 14 17:59:22 2007
    Subject: Petition Verification
    All,
    This email is to notify you that the Party has collected your petitions from the State Board of Elections.

    First off, congratulations on making it through a grueling process! Now that you?ve done the hard part, we just need to verify the petitions.
    We will be conducting verification at RPV HQ (115 E. Grace St, Richmond) beginning at 9:45am on Monday, December 17th. We will be doing a hard count for number of signatures based on correctness of form (see attached documents for details).
    We?ve got about 40 folks coming in to help with the count, so it should proceed fairly quickly. You all are more than welcome to have one or two folks present as observers.
    I will be out of town next week, so please direct any questions to either Christian Curto or Erika Fischer (copied on this email, or available at 703-254-**** and 757-618-****, respectively), who will be supervising the count.
    I hope you?ll take the time to review the attached documents, so that we can get through this as rapidly and smoothly as possible. It is the goal of the Party to qualify your candidates for the ballot, but we do have an obligation to make sure that the legal requirements have been met.
    Thanks,
    Matt
    Matthew Wells
    Political Director ? Central
    Republican Party of Virginia

  • snowshooze

    They have the authority to do so.

  • lineholder

    making the change at a point in time when the VA GOP had to know that Presidential candidates were in the process of gathering petition signatures…were there no other alternatives open to them?

    I understand that they had to make this change, and the truth being told, I believe that they should have been enforcing the letter of the law from the point in the time that it was written.

    But did it never occur to them that they might have or could have postponed implementation of those process changes due to the fact that it would present a conflict of interest for the state of VA and quite possibly our entire nation where the primary for Presidential candidacy is concerned?

  • angryguy77

    http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2011/12/26/did-the-va-gop-change-the-rules-on-primary-ballot-access-in-november-2011/

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    Nooooooo text whatsoever.

  • gekster

    and then look at mid November when they decided to ‘enforce’ the rules.

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    Cuccinelli is anti-Newt/Romney/Paul, which leaves him favoring either Perry/Bachmann/Santorum. Bolling is Romney’s VA chair. So if Cuccinelli starts challenging Bolling on this (and perhaps fighting in Perry’s favor since he ain’t crazy about Newt but has expressed admiration for Perry) then it will be their first confrontation leading into the gubernatorial election. Cuccinelli is very popular among the conservatives in Virginia, too, so he would have the Tea Party-type conservatives backing him.

  • teme

    There was full check for any mistakes in signatures and forms and procedures in 2008, and if after those the total of valid signatures fell below 10.5k or 450 per district, they were checked against RPV?s official voter list, if opposing campaign wanted to challenge those results and pay for the official voter list comparison. From what we have heard, it was the procedural validation alone that brought both Perry below 10k, which causes automatic drop out, so the address check that would have been enabled at 10.5k wouldn?t have been used anyway, so by 2008 standards Gingrich and Perry wouldn?t have been on the ticket either.

    This is probably why the all 6 Republican campaigns who got to the ballot collected those 15k signatures, the key persons knew the rules and collected what they were asked to collect.

    http://images.redstate.com/files/Guidelines%20for%20Observers.pdf

    http://images.redstate.com/files/Guidelines%20for%20Petition%20Verification.pdf

    http://images.redstate.com/files/RPV%202008%20Presidential%20Primary%20Petition%20Verification.pdf

  • lineholder

    involves a personal battle between these two individuals? Is that what you’re saying? Or is there more to it than just that?

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    means that although they won’t be actively competing for the governor’s seat YET, this will be the first chance for them to fight each other. People will be watching closely to see how each will react and challenge, because it’ll be a preview of the race to come. Wasn’t sure if my first post made that clear…sorry ;)

  • snowshooze

    And if hit from several different directions, we shall have a proper war.

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    See my post below–I think our comments crossed :)

  • jimmyg

    along with Bolling, Romney’s campaign chair, and Jerry Kilgore, Perry’s campaign chair, who are also members of the VA GOP state central committee, is in a position to determine when and if the rules can be changed.

    It is too bad he did not come to this conclusion as to the ballot access when he was in the VA senate from 2002 to 2010.

    http://www.rpv.org/node/270

  • lineholder

    You’ve mentioned Perry’s, and you’ve said both of them failed on procedural points, but you’ve not identified Newt point of failure.

    What was it?

  • teme

    VA Dem Senators are pissed off at Republican Senators since they don’t want to share leadership when Senate is 20-20, and Republicans have Lt. Governorship to give the leadership to Republicans, well Dems didn’t share leadership in similar situation when it was 20-20 and Dem Lt. Gov. so don’t care they can cry all they want.

    In addition there are huge tensions over redistricting, do you want to give them one additional “minority opportunity” district (VA has already one minority-majority district required by the Voting rights laws but the Dems want additional minority opportunity district), one more guaranteed Dem congress seat, for them going along with the fast tracking of legislation?

  • gekster

    put on bogus names to inflate the numbers to get over the 10.5K sigs so as not
    the need to check any names.
    How many names were actually contested from any candidate.
    Why shouldn’t ALL the names be contested.
    How do you know that Romney and Paul didn’t get forged signatures to get themselves over the 10.5 K threahhold, if since they got they many, they must be real.

  • pj2012

    out (somehow) with a little help from there friends… so to speak. I just can’t picture there being only Mitt and Ron as the only two choices on the VA ballot. I remain an eternal optimists on this getting worked out. Gingrich’s VA lawyer was just on fox news… sounds like a reasonable guy… maybe he can make a case to get Rick and Newt on the ballot.

    Saw this video today… didn’t know where to put it on RS… not trying to jack your thread… Moe.

    VA aside, I have a good feeling about Perry’s chances in Iowa. I really think if Perry did some meet and greets and town halls and interviews before he jumped into the debates he’d be in a much better place in the polls today. “Leadership” and trustworthiness is what strikes me… what I see in Perry… a nice little interview on the road in Iowa.

    Road to the Caucuses: Meet Rick Perry

  • expanding_man

    I guess unless you convince them that to change the rules now would cause even more chaos for the Republicans, the Democratic senators aren’t going to cooperate.

    I assume this means no fix via legislation. No time for a court case either.

  • lineholder

    “both Perry and Newt” when you wrote “both Perry” in your comment above?

    If this is a procedural failure, then the candidates do have culpability on that and it can’t be laid at the door of the VA GOP.

    The VA GOP does have culpability in the fact that it did not enforce the letter of the law from the point of passing the law, and they may have some culpability in the fact that they chose to implement this type of process change after the Aug. 1st deadline required by VA law.

    But I’d say all things considered, we should probably resign ourselves to the fact that no reversal of this decision is likely to be made prior to the primary. Newt and Perry need to move on and focus on other states.

    What a shame all the way around, because this hurts not only the state of VA but all of us!

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    He only knows that Erick wrote a post about an element of the process in 2007, and he thinks that if he only cuts and pastes links to it often enough people will ignore that the ballot certification process has always been under the control of the VA GOP.

    Yeah, I know: hasn’t happened yet. Well, hope springs eternal and all that.

    Moe Lane

    PS: I offer this as a general observation: we actually do have a rule against manual spambotting, by the way.

  • teme

    Procedural validation was done accurately in 2008, and everybody passed it since they could afford some procedural disqualifications since they all six Republican campaigns had brought more than 15k signatures

    Here is seems to be full list of 2008 procedural validation

    http://images.redstate.com/files/Guidelines%20for%20Petition%20Verification.pdf

    Total lack of any address: procedural error

    Mismatch of name/address/voter registry: voter registration error

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    This could happen.

  • Scope

    You are creepy and then some. How much is the Romney campaign paying you to trash the opposition which has been their game plan.

  • westcoastpatriette

    It’s getting old and irritating fast, too.

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    it’ll be EPIC.

  • expanding_man

    Politico article snippet:

    “Paul Goldman, a Richmond lawyer who is a former Virginia Democratic party chairman, is helping represent a conservative group in challenging Newt Gingrich’s disqualification from the Old Dominion ballot on March 6, Super Tuesday.

    Bill Pascoe, executive vice president of Citizens for the Republic, said: ?We are teaming up with former Virginia Democratic Party Chairman Paul Goldman to make sure the voters of the Commonwealth have a fair and transparent presidential primary process. …”

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70866.html#ixzz1hmD6BiaB

    What the He$$ is going on!!

  • Scope

    and lawyer who is working to get Perry and Gingrich on the ballot. He has pull with the Democrats, and a very good argument to use in VA. The Democrats wrote the VA State Election Laws in 1999 which made the requirements the toughest in the nation. Since 2004, the DNC has issued waivers for any Democrat running in the state to be able to relax the rules. The Dems only have to collect from 4-5,000 signatures. The VA Democrats since 2004 have been begging the legislature to lower the restrictive rules for ballot access, without have to be given waivers in every election. I would think that the Dem. who is working on behalf of the Republican candidates, and has been against the restrictive rules forever would be able to convince more than 11 Democrats to vote in an emergency session.

    Teme, do you wake up every morning, spin the wheel of misery, and see who you are going to go after that day, before your feet even hit the floor?

  • lineholder

    From the Politico article:

    “A website will be up within the week.”
    The battle to challenge the ballot ruling is uphill. Goldman refused to say what approach he has in mind. “But rest assured this is not an academic exercise as will be clear shortly,” he said in an email.
    “[T]his isn’t a partisan or even candidate specific thing, but far more important, about the right to vote in Virginia on the presidency,” Goldman wrote. “The people of Virginia expect their right to choose to be upheld.”

    According the article, Goldman has been a non-partisan influence for ballot access in VA.

    Any Virginians want to provide feedback on this?

  • teme

    … based on the validation rate, they probably got comfortable that it’s 99.9% sure that there is enough valid signatures in those 16k.

    Also many VA Republicans, who don’t support either Paul or Romney, have said here that Romney and Paul supporters were everywhere, every Republican event, etc, whereas other campaigns were nowhere

  • oldlady

    is still pending. No court decision has yet been made as to whether or not this should or should be implemented. So why did the Va. GOP jump the gun BEFORE a decision had been made on the issue????

  • oldlady

    is still pending. No court decision has yet been made as to whether or not this should or should be implemented. So why did the Va. GOP jump the gun BEFORE a decision had been made on the issue????

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    This is good news. I’m VERY encouraged. I sent the VA GOP a letter this afternoon myself and I know lots of other people have done the same. I really think we’re going to get over this hurdle.

  • Scope

    That even the uppers in VA don’t even understand the VA election laws or rules. Bill Bolling siad flat out in a post on his website, the day he bragged about hand delivering the Romney ballots, with volunteers, that now there would be “Democrat” volunteers validating the ballots. That happened in conjunction with Pat Mullins, the VA GOP chair also sending emails to Republicans to please volunteer to help validate the signatures.

    I’m on the VA GOP email list since I donated money to them via attending the Perry VA GOP event shortly after he got in. Never got any emails asking me to volunteer to validate signatures which I would have done in a heartbeat, even with the hour and a half drive to get there.

  • expanding_man

    This may get very messy before it’s over.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    As has been reported since the start, “The state GOP decided that candidates who submit at least 15,000 signatures of registered voters on valid petitions with at least 600 signatures from each of the 11 districts will be deemed to have met the qualifications.”

    And they wonder why we keep rolling our eyes at the Romney supporters.

  • Scope

    I’m not sure that anything will be done to fix this. Bolling has a loud voice here, being the Lt. Gov., and a contender for the 2013 Gov. seat. He knows everyone he needs to know to keep it the way it is. I very honestly believe that there is more of a chance of the Democrats trying to fix the mess than even the Republicans in the Senate. Bolling presides over the Senate, and they will not go against him.

    Yes, the race between Bolling and Cuccinelli is already very very nasty, because Cuccinelli isn’t getting in line for his rightful and proper turn. Thing is, Cuccinelli is squeaky clean, has already been vetted when he ran for Atty. Gen, and can claim the most conservative positions, and work to get them done. As I’ve said, McDonnell, and to a smaller degree Bolling are trying to take credit for the hard slogging work that Cuccinelli has done. That has not been missed by many Virginians. McDonnell, Bolling, and the VA GOP will do everything in their power to smash, bash, trash, and clash with Cuccinelli, but I promise, his fight against Obamacare, his lawsuits against the EPA, and several other things he himself has done is on the minds of the Virginia voters. It will be Gov. Cuccinelli in 2013. Most don’t get excited watching paint dry on the wall, or watching grass grow, which is Bill Bolling in a nutshell. The only reason he won re-election as Lt. Gov. in 2009, was because the three campaigned in tandem. Their campaign stops were called McBollingelli. They brought Bolling along for the tri-fecta.

  • romansdaughter

    I hadn’t been able to find it when Lizzie had mentioned it. Yeah, that is where Rick Perry excells is in retail politicking. I saw a video on YouTube on Rick Perry just going around talking and shaking hands and people love him cause he is like one of them. He is over talking to the farmers and knows what he is talking about, Then over with the business men and knows what he is talking about. They all seem to like him.

  • westcoastpatriette

    is occurring behind the scenes. The calm before the storm or the quiet correction of a mess to keep a full scale battle at bay? We should hear something soon I would think.

  • sunshinek67

    but the embed reporters that I have been following have been posting pictures with really good crowds for Perry in Iowa.

  • Scope

    here, Perry lost near to 60% of his signatures as invalid. If Romney lost 40% of his signatures, he would also have been disqualified. Paul probably had his Campaign 4 Liberty organization in the state all have pot-ins in order to sign the ballots. They are very popular with the colleges and universities here. A joint for a signature goes a long way, after all they are following the Liberal Obama playbook to a T.

    There are also many Virginians saying that Paul and Romney hit the November election locations in order to get signatures. They would only have to be 100 ft away from the door of the voting location, holding big signs and offering free food, among other things.

  • expanding_man

    Arguements are to be made before the court in March on the Osborne case I believe. If Osborne wins the case, and he very well may, then the court’s ruling may dictate that the candidates did not meet the requirements to get on the ballot. Then who knows what would happen. The VA GOP did the right thing by checking the signatures/enforcing the rules. They cannot afford not to do so.

  • snowshooze

    Don’t let a single day pass..
    And we’ll be glad to accept help where we find it.
    Goldman wrote. ?The people of Virginia expect their right to choose to be upheld”
    He is picking the right battle.

  • teme

    This “Petition Verification” process that is much faster than the actual voter registration verification process, was done to every signature in 2008, even tough everybody got 15k. For what has been reported, seems that they failed Petition Verification process

    http://images.redstate.com/files/Guidelines%20for%20Petition%20Verification.pdf

    So whether there was improvement in the voter registry verification process, which in 2008 standards could be launched if Petition Verification dropped the signatures below 10.5k or 450 in any distrcit.

  • Scope

    but can successfully play this mess like a fiddle. Being the Atty. Gen., and a strong rule of law conservative, he has hit the angle of the legislature seeing and understanding how the state election laws have made it difficult for the state to insure that choices are given to the voters through a fair process that doesn’t eliminate Republican candidates, but gives them an equal chance as compared to the 49 other states less restrictive laws/rules. He is not just asking that anyone else be allowed, but is hitting it at the legal angle.

    If Cooch has any way to make this his most important voice for the people and having choices, he will wipe the floor with Bolling. He will do that anyway, but this could be the final clincher.

  • teme

    …any district, doesn’t really matter, since Perry and Gingrich apparently failed the Petition Verification process (total lack of any address in apparently 2k Newt’s signatures one example), which was same as in 2008, so any voter registry verification improvmeent didn’t matter.

  • pj2012

    something to that affect. Perry’s drawing good crowds with standing room only in contrast to Bachmann drawing just a few voters that showed up to her stop in which Perry was just downtown from her with a full crowd. http://caucuses.desmoinesregister.com/2011/12/27/rick-perry-paints-rivals-as-insiders/

  • windwaker24

    http://www.rickperry.org/content/uploads/2011/12/Perry-VA-Ballot-Access.pdf?utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=pressRelease

    Good luck, Gov. Perry!

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    …because you’re starting to bore me: Who or what has the final say on who gets to be on the Republican primary ballot in Virginia?

    You get five words or less, and you will answer that in your next comment.

  • romansdaughter

    He and his lawyers must have discovered something not right, So hopefully this will get turned around.

  • Scope

    and according to an article in the DesMoines Register, Bachmann was late to the event, again, even though it was her kick-off for her bus tour. The article said there was almost no one there, and her campaign said it was just a media event, as a car rode by with a bullhorn asking people to come to see Bachmann. 6 miles away Perry had a stop, the restaurant was packed, Perry spoke for 10 minutes, and was off to the next event, on time.

    Just heard on Fox, of all places, that Perry has filed lawsuits in federal court to fight the VA disqualification. Yipeeeeee! Newt is depending on a Democrat to fight this for him, while Perry is fighting the good fight on his own, in federal court. Perry isn’t messing around with the local courts that would take until next year to even hear his case. God I love this man.

  • pj2012

    VA ballot Rules… just saw this news on Fox at 6:35 PM.

  • Scope

    against his disqualification from the VA ballot. I’m going to see if I can find anything about that, as I just heard it.

  • pj2012

    lol… timing… Go Perry!!

  • windwaker24

    :)

    I figured he was going to sue. Although, I thought he was going to do it first thing yesterday, but better late than never!

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    I have completely lost any confidence that I might have had that certain diehards would be able to comprehend the language here, so let me summarize it: the Perry campaign is conceding that about half of their signatures were thrown out by the verification process (for the slow of brain, this is why the signatures were reported as 12K earlier, and 6K now); they are arguing that the requirement that petition circulators be VA voters is unconstitutional (debatable, and by that I mean ‘debatable’); and they point out that the final decision is in the hands of the state party apparatus at any rate (which is why both the State Board of Elections and the VA GOP are co-defendants).

    I believe that Gingrich is readying a similar lawsuit, and with that this all goes beyond my purview: I do politics, not law.

  • Scope

    have both just knocked Perry, no surprise there. Powers said that two other candidates made the ballot so it’s not so onerous. Krauthammer, a big time Romney supporter said that the rules were not so restrictive or hard. No surprise there folks.

  • sunshinek67

    ;)

  • bzip

    Rick Perry files challenge to Virgina ballot access rules
    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/201473-rick-perry-files-challenge-to-virgina-ballot-access-rules

    BREAKING: Rick Perry Files Lawsuit To Get On Virginia Primary Ballot
    http://www.businessinsider.com/breaking-rick-perry-files-lawsuit-to-get-on-virginia-primary-ballot-2011-12

  • gekster

    I really didn’t think he could come up with the particulars.

    (sorry for late response, playing a round of golf with the grandkids on the wii)
    (I lost again, can’t never beat them, wink, wink))

  • lineholder

    do you believe this fight-by-proxy would be effective and move quickly enough to rectify the situation for candidates prior to the VA primary in March? Or do you see it more in the context of making sure nothing like this happens again?

    You do politics and you live in VA, correct? Your perspective would be more pertinent than my own.

  • sunshinek67

    …… :D

  • sharrondeer

    In 2008, McCain, Huckabee, Paul, Romney, and even Fred Thompson and Giuliani managed to get over 15,000 signatures, so there was no need to check the petitions. If Fred Thompson and Rudy Giuliani could manage it, clearly it’s not as hard as Gingrich is claiming to get that many signatures, and there were no additional hurdles added since 2008.

    So it comes down to Gingrich and Perry not having the staff and organization to get enough signatures, and Gingrich trying to distract people from that by claiming foul. It’s a shame that Virginia voters won’t be able to vote for their preferred nominee, but, given all the candidates on the ballot in 2008, the case that the VA GOP had it in for Gingrich just doesn’t hold up.

  • crosley

    It’s clear Cuccinelli is playing for the cheap seats right now, have you ever heard him utter a word about changing this requirement before all of this went down?

    Had you ever heard a peep out of the Gingrich or Perry campaign about changing Virginia’s laws on getting enough signatures to place on the ballot?

    At the end of the day, the real question is, “does the candidate have 10,000 valid signatures?” If they don’t, their name shouldn’t be on the ballot. Period. Instead, people are trying to say the VA GOP is to blame because Virginia actually started verifying the signatures?

    I’m fine with changing the law and having a write in option, it will be over by then anyway. But how pathetic does it make the campaigns look that they had to change a longstanding law because a few inept campaigns weren’t organized enough to get enough signatures to be placed on a ballot?

    The damage has already been done and GOP voters have now seen what type of operation these candidates are running, but let’s go ahead and give every kid a trophy for trying.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    And all the VA Republicans I know are either swearing at the state party, swearing at ALL the candidates*, or alternating their swearing between the two categories in order to avoid being unfair. :)

    Seriously, I expect that this is going to be a skirmish in the larger war for VA-GOV.

    Moe Lane

    *This was not the GOP primary’s finest hour.

  • windwaker24

    You read faster than I do! :)

    I would have hoped he’d have a stronger argument than that. Basing his argument on VA voting thing makes me kind of nervous, but I guess he knows what he’s doing.

  • jakeofalltrades

    So now my donor money can go to lawyers instead of petition circulators.

    To be fair, he did provide 20% more signatures than required at the outset, so I cannot fault the campaign. Plus I won’t relent on my pledge to max out my contribution limit for him – Perry is the only candidate I can justify supporting financially. I will not support a serial adulterer and nineties retread with flashes of Dole, nor will I support a liberal. The rest of the field is a joke.

  • romansdaughter

    nt

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    …is that nobody really expected there to be a problem with any of this until quite recently; the state parties have been quietly managing the problem for decades, thanks to their oversight over the process. And to be fair; onerous ballot requirements would be even more onerous if there were legitimate options for outside groups to stir the pot after the fact.

    But since they’ve decided to actually enforce the rules, it’s hard for any of them to admit that without raising even more problems. Notice how nobody in Romney or Paul’s camp dares admit that the VA GOP has the final say in the process? Trust me, if Gingrich and/or Perry had been certified they’d be equally mum.

  • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior
  • lineholder

    *

  • JSobieski

    http://www.rickperry.org/content/uploads/2011/12/Perry-VA-Ballot-Access.pdf

  • Samsara

    The irregular collection of talking heads on Fox New Special Report just got done echoing the WSJ hatchet job?again. The “Big News” is that Newt made a statement in support of Romney Care, and that this should be viewed as a serious challenge to his conservatism.

    Meanwhile, the man who brought you Romney Care, the blueprint for Obama Care…the man who thinks mandating individuals to buy healthcare is a conservative idea…. well, he gets a complete pass. He is not even mentioned other than as the victim of Newt’s “attack”.

    I’m glad Rodger Ailes has made up his mind about who the Republican nominee should be.

    Fair and Balanced

  • gekster

    Pages were tossed because some were not double spaced.
    Thrown out automatically even if sigs were legit.
    Others were tossed because the pages were not signed on both sides, only one. Automatically tossed even if sigs were legit.
    Now Perry and Gingrich are being blamed because some collectors were inept,
    were not informed, or, get a tin foil hat ready, were operatives for the other campaigns.

    ( the last said in jest, but with RP supporters, you never know)

  • JSobieski

    Count II of the lawsuit is the kind of things democrats file where you just say that any process requirements just get in the way of Constitutional rights.

    Note that there is no argument based on a “change” in the rules. This is because the GOP did comply with the law as written.

  • jakeofalltrades

    So very few people and publications link the opinions they cite… usually poorly.

    I have made the link active: here.

  • JSobieski

    Not the signatures themselves.

    Only registered/eligible persons are allowed to circulate the petitions.

    That is why Count I of the lawsuit focuses on that issue.

  • expanding_man

    Looks like Perry’s lawyers argue that petition circulators have been limited by state of residence/voting eligibility. They allege that this is a constitutional violation of Perry’s freedom of speech and freedome of assembly. They site case law which I haven’t read to support their arguments. This is a pretty bare bones petition.

    Legally, I’m no constitutional scholar, but the common sense take on this petition is that it’s weak sauce. I recognize what common sense tells you and what is legal are two very different things.

    I assume their argument is that Perry could only come up with 6K petition signatures b/c they were unconstitutionally not allowed to use petition circulators from out of state, etc.

  • pj2012

    saw that, and I agree… Krauthammer’s a big time Romney supporter for sure. The Krauthammer oracle is a tad full of himself.

  • JSobieski

    I haven’t read the cases.

    Count II is weak sauce—very much Gore 2000 esque.

    Count I is interesting, but we don’t know how many signatures were tossed due to the circulator issue.

  • circlegranch

    and DC editor, Matt K. Lewis thinks this is a shrewd move…will garner media attention and sends a message to IA voters and all the country that he’s a serious contender.

    If Cuccinelli (sic) sticks up for Perry, whether Perry prevails or not in this, he’ll have the support of Perry fans behind him!

    Great move by Gov. Perry! He kept low key on it until his legal team had a chance to review this and now is ready to go after it. Probably galled Fox to have to report it since they’ve tried so hard to keep it hidden, avoiding any bad press possibly reflecting on their short list of preferred candidate(s).

    Tear ‘em up, Gov!

  • jakeofalltrades

    The legal standard, since they’re claiming 1st Amendment + substantive due process, is intermediate scrutiny. The law must advance an important, legitimate government purpose.

    In context, it doesn’t appear to advance any purpose whatsoever and would fail even rational-basis-with-teeth scrutiny. Who cares who circulates a petition?

    I think his case has a good shot. Or they could settle it :) .

  • gekster

    some were tossed because they were not noterized. Even if sigs were legit.

  • jimmyg

    nt

  • teme
    VA GOP since the parties apparently still have freedom to not to bother with signature verification.

    Apparently VA Dems collected most of signatures for Dems in 2004 and 2008, and they didn’t do even Petition Verification like VA GOP did in 2008.

    People should just then say that they want the VA GOP signature collection and verification process to be half-baked like the VA Dems have, so that campaigns can get more easily on the ballot, or that Romney’s signatures are fully inspected. Not claim that some unexpected new voter registration database comparison dropped Perry and Gingrich out, when it was the Petition Verification process (checking for proper notarization, total lack of required information like address, etc) that is same from 2008.

    Though they should have checked Romney’s signatures fully also. I think they came up with that let’s not inspect over 15k signatures rule, because they wanted to get to Christmas break, and they knew that Romney had good organization, and that the campaign had hired people to actually verify themselves over third of their signatures, so they thought they could get to Christmas break and save money by not inspecting them.

  • JSobieski

    Bottom Line Conclusions:

    The VA requirements are stupid (although the Republican legislature seems uninterested in making it better)

    Not an impressive display for either the Perry or Newt campaigns. Navigating legal morass is a campaign requirement (see campaign finance laws) not to mention a challenge for sitting Presidents.

  • JSobieski

    If the case has a good shot, I am sure it will settle.

  • jakeofalltrades

    They aren’t going to win on that. If he collected 10,000 signatures, he’ll need to amend his complaint – and he doesn’t have much time to do that.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    The answer that we were looking for was “The Republican Party of Virginia.”

    Ta.

  • circlegranch

    and get at least daily email updates. The site originator is in Des Moines now and plans to post photos/videos/updates from Perry Hdqtrs

  • westcoastpatriette

    ll

  • jimmyg

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/97-930.ZS.html
    I may be reading this inorrectly but A quick read reveals that the Supreme Ct. did not decide on the residency requirement for petition circulators prescribed by the State of Colorado

    ACLF did not challenge Colorado?s right to require that all circulators be residents, a requirement that more precisely achieves the State?s subpoena service objective. Assuming that a residence requirement would be upheld as a needful integrity-policing measure?a question that this Court, like the Tenth Circuit, has no occasion to decide because the parties have not placed the matter of residence at issue?the added registration requirement is not warranted. Pp. 8?13.”

  • lizzie

    First, thanks to bzip for the URL to The Hill which has the entire legal filing included.
    I am not a lawyer, BUT, have studied a fair share of SCOTUS suits and decisions.

    This legal challenge is pure genius by zeroing in on the legal precedents that VA law requiring the “petition circulators” to be VA residents violates the 1st and 14th Amendments.

    Not to mention the serious lawyers who are working for Rick Perry:
    http://www.spottsfain.com/attorneys/hugh-m-fain
    “…currently serves as President-Elect of the Virginia Bar Association…”
    and the Texas firm:
    http://www.bmpllp.com/practices_industries/36-election-law

    While I most definitely do not believe in conspiracies, I have to assume that the Perry campaign knew they had a serious hurdle (the perils of late entries by anyone with a job), and simultaneously worked out a Constitutional challenge, based on quite a few precedents.

    And, instead of throwing out a verbal bombshell (Pearl Harbor? really?), Perry stayed quiet, and, produces a serious legal challenge by very serious lawyers, who zero in on the U.S. Constitution, precisely on the day that makes THIS the new story, displacing the ‘failures of incompetent campaigns’ meme that prevailed so far.

    Also demonstrates what Perry is saying in Iowa – that what counts is leadership and wisdom, not to mention knowing how to pick quality advisors.

    With this many precedents, and filing in Federal court for immediate injunction, I see this as another win for the idea of adhering to the U.S. Constitution.

    well, that is my analysis. I can not follow the media echo on this so I truly appreciate RedState for being a go-to source for serious Americans.

    Hope it also helps dispel that smear about Rick Perry’s intelligence that really makes me angry. Everyone said the same thing about Harry S. Truman, and far worse about Abraham Lincoln.

    I went, on scholarship+work+loans, to an elite college. Some of the smartest people I have ever talked with worked in the factory where I worked after grad school. Fancy degrees and GPA mean nothing compared to curiosity, common sense, good judgment, active listener, and being able to pilot a C-130 :)

  • snowshooze

    I would also like to see if the identicle scrutiny was applied consistently.
    Mention of Democrats and anybody off the street being utilized as verifiers is not good either.

  • sunshinek67

    …… ;)

  • lizzie

    spelling bee champion, so forgive my typos!

  • jayjayson

    Perry also contends that requiring the sigintuer colletors be voters in the state is against USSC rulings.

  • snowshooze

    Tomorrow should be really peachy.
    Maybe Newt can come up with something.

  • sunshinek67

    I need that balance when I get riled up in these RS rooms lol. Recently, I have been offering up long lectures on Thomas Jefferson whenever some troll enters the room and starts criticizing Perry’s debate skills :)

  • Scope

    Cooch said that he has spoken with many campaigns over the past month. Go back and look at Coochs arguments against the “onerous” requirements for ballot qualification. Me thinks that the Perry team has been in contact with Cooch.. Hey. if the Lt. Gov. Bolling can be acting on behalf of his candidate, then Perry can seek the advice of Cooch. I’m telling you, look at the Perry argument, and then look at what Cooch has been saying. Brilliant move by the Perry team. This screams for Cooch’s love of Federalism, fairness, and most importantly voters having choices.

    This is going to be a huge issue between Cooch and Bolling in the 2013 Gov. race. I’m already signed up as a Cooch volunteer.

  • jakeofalltrades

    You’ve got research, typing, conversations, and investigation. You can go to jail and destroy your career if you screw it up.

  • gekster

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Just getting a judge to hold up the election until it’s resolved would be sufficient. Causing Virginia to be last in the primary election would be an interesting unintended consequence of this whole thing.

  • lizzie

    and probably would have completely failed the 60-second response test of what are called “debates” :)

    I confess I wish Perry had not said “I’m trainable” on his Iowa interview today, about his improving debate skills. long weekend with those four dogs?

    Still wanttoknow why Huntsman, Bachmann, and Santorum did not even bother to file in Virginia.

    One would hope THAT would influence Iowans far more than anything else about ‘electability’ or ‘competent campaign’.

    I get so into following media echo, but my cat is tapping my shoulder and the laundry needs to be finished and this is way too addictive.

    i just want to WANT to vote for a new president. Hate this Romney is inevitable because otherwise you’ll get Ron Paul theme of the week.

    signing off.

  • lizzie

    and probably would have completely failed the 60-second response test of what are called “debates” :)

    I confess I wish Perry had not said “I’m trainable” on his Iowa interview today, about his improving debate skills. long weekend with those four dogs?

    Still wanttoknow why Huntsman, Bachmann, and Santorum did not even bother to file in Virginia.

    One would hope THAT would influence Iowans far more than anything else about ‘electability’ or ‘competent campaign’.

    I get so into following media echo, but my cat is tapping my shoulder and the laundry needs to be finished and this is way too addictive.

    i just want to WANT to vote for a new president. Hate this Romney is inevitable because otherwise you’ll get Ron Paul theme of the week.

    signing off.

  • snowshooze

    Or they are going to face busloads of Attorneys, and then a lynch mob.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    he was so bad at public speaking that he refused to give the State of the Union speech orally.

    Abraham Lincoln by contemporary accounts was not much of a speech-maker, and Teddy Roosevelt had a thin, reedy, high pitched voice.

    None of them would make it in the modern non-debates.

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    I love Perry and I love Cuccinelli. They are going to give those Establishment RINOs a run for their money!

  • http://www.changeforrickperry.org louisianapatriette

    And thank you, Moe. You’re awesome.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Especially since they have other options here.

  • snowshooze

    The 5,000 they may go after, but the 50 signatures has not come up.
    Is that unrealistic to argue?
    I saw it where you posted earlier… and printed word can tell no lie..

  • greyeagle

    The Perry Campaign turned in 11, 900 signatures and Newt turned in 11,500 and both had enough signatures tossed out to end below 10,000. Now part of the vetting were done by Romney supporters. This brings to mind a question. Why were supporters of other candidates tossing out signatures? A second question would be what was wrong with the signatures that tossed out such a huge number for both candidates. This does NOT meet the smell test.

  • snowshooze

    I looked, I thoght that was a State filing.

  • snowshooze

    Or do they get to save some for later?

  • Scope

    because he has never uttered an opinion on this before this debacle. You show your total and complete lack of knowledge concerning Ken Cuccinelli. If you have followed Cuccinelli through his time as VA Atty. Gen., you would know that this Perry lawsuit has every thumb print of Cuccinelli’s positions since he was elected. You post your ignornace, so proudly, as though you have a clue. On the other hand when you disparage Cuccinelli, you remind me very much of those in the state that are adamantly against Cuccinelli not “waiting his turn.”

    Why would Cuccinelli give any election position when the issue has not been in the forefront? Why would Cuccinelli give his opinion now when he is facing the same “next in line” debacle against the Republican establishment in this state? Are you a Virginia resident? Where are your credentials, or credible bonafides to speak on Virgina politics? Do you have any? Or have you decided that you are going to be the loud voice of the “insider elitists” which have all come out of the woodwork in smashing the Perry and Gingrich campaigns as being totally failures.

  • greyeagle

    Yep, FOX is in the tank for Romney. I am disgusted with FOX and the way they have treated Rick Perry.

  • http://edgeinducedcohesion.wordpress.com nathanalbright

    I’m glad the VAGOP has an adult in the house who isn’t a member of the chicken brigade.

  • JSobieski

    He has NOT supported the lawsuit or suggested that the VA statute was constitutionally defective.

    He has (which is reasonable) said that it does not benefit VA to have the most burdensome ballot requirements.

    Cuccinelli is a serious lawyer, and he should not be used by either side of the political issue.

    Nothing Cuccinelli has said in public has gone beyond “we need to fix this for future elections”.

  • snowshooze

    So why do you think Perry didn’t bring up the ” For other positions” requirement of 50 signatures, as for Dog-Catcher and Presidential Primary Nomination? It isn’t in the complaint.

  • greyeagle

    amounted to about 50% denial rates. That is extremely high. I want to know who was actually doing the vetting? Read on a couple of sites, it was Romney supporters. Guess we will find out. Perry will not back down. If VA does not take care of this mess, then they will be laughed at for a long time.

  • mikwcas

    Florida pushed all the primaries up for “some” reason. seems to me that the Rep. party establishment are trying to, and successfully, outflank the tea-partiers who do not mitt and sure as heck do not want paul. WHY CAN’T THESE PEOPLE JUST LET US MAKE OUR OWN DECISIONS? before we have another dole or mccain on our hands????? MITT IS NOT IT!

  • http://boldcolor.blogspot.com/ Paula

    Perry’s lawsuit notes that because he’s not a registered voter in VA, the law prohibits him from circulating his own petitions.

    That’s an interesting aspect that may have some merit.

  • pj2012

    Allahpundit. Where he states “some federal appellate courts have sided with Perry on this. Here?s one case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_on_Term_Limits_v._Savage, from the Tenth Circuit, finding state residency requirements for petition circulators unconstitutional; two other federal appellate courts have ruled similarly. The question is whether the Fourth Circuit, which covers Virginia, will rule the same way. How lucky do you feel?” http://hotair.com/archives/2011/12/27/perry-sues-virginia-elections-board-to-gain-ballot-access/

  • polarglen

    . . . the republicans lost the election in the week before Christmas when they were incapable of getting their message out that they supported a one year’s extension of the tax holiday and were crucified because they didn’t support a two month extension. Such message incompetence does not lead to successful elections.

  • JSobieski

    The irony of Newt and Perry needing a liberal judge is … ironic

  • Scope

    in all 50 states.

  • snowshooze

    ups.

  • JSobieski

    nt

  • racetraitor

    That means that over 5,000 of the signatures Perry collected were thrown out. That’s like, what, 45% of the sigs tossed? That is a serioulsy messed-up system.

  • snowshooze

    Lower standard stated in the law only requiring 50 signatories?
    I was trying to figure out why a Dog Catcher was any less important than a Presidential hopeful…
    As in the ” Other ” Category.

  • Scope

    will force more answers to the questions we all have. So far the VA GOP has remained mum on any of the questions, almost as though if we don’t talk about this or release any info, it will all just go away, and we can do whatever we please. The answers by the State Election Board, and especially Pat Mullins will be instructive. They will have to answer the questions.

    If it is true that the VA GOP changed course in November, because of a low level lawsuit by a disgruntled Independent in one district, against the party chair, rather than the VA GOP, they are in a ride for their lives with this Perry lawsuit.

  • racetraitor

    but I think you’re mistaken on one point. You said it’s debatable whether it is constitutional to require petition circulators to be voters of VA. However, Perry’s lawyers cite a United States Supreme Court precedent (from 1999) which held exactly that. They then referenced several cases from around the country which applied the Supreme Court precedent in a way that totally backs upPerry’s claim. My opinion as a “retired” lawyer is that this suit is a brilliant move by Perry, and that he has a good shot at getting a favorable result..

  • thomasburkby

    The lawsuit has one thing going for it, which is the Buckley precedent on the constitutionality of a requirement that only those who are legal residents of a state may circulate petitions to put someone on the ballot in that state. That’s based on the principle that the rights of the voters is what’s paramount, not the identity of the people passing around petitions.

    The trouble is that Perry can’t prove that the authorities rejected ANY of his petitions based on the non-residence of any of the gatherers. Even if one were to validate all of his signature-seekers, he didn’t have enough valid signatures.

    The requirements for 10,000 signatures with at least 400 of them from each district is stated plainly on the papers that Perry signed in October, and his people probably had them (or should have had them) last August. The failure to obtain enough valid signatures shows that he’s not the great administrator he claims to be. As a Virginia resident, I would have gone and gotten some signatures if anyone had asked me, but they didn’t. Then, too, I think that Rick Perry is an airhead who would be annihilated in the general election. “I’m going to shut down three federal departments on my first day in office.” “Which ones?” “Uh…. Duh…. Commerce?”

    Anyone that stupid does not deserve to have his hand on the nuclear bomb button, whatever they call it now.

    I’m all for elimination of the Dept. Education, by the way, which does nothing useful. But we have had a Commerce Department much longer than we have had an income tax, and the Republic somehow survived. It could stand to be trimmed down, but where the Constitution entrusts the federal government with the power to regulate interstate commerce, it’s idiotic to say that the Dept. of Commerce should be eliminated.

  • jimmyg

    and it is possible that it is poor drafting, but what the complaint says is as follows: “18. On December 22, 2011 the Plaintiff submitted over 6000 petition signatures from qualified Virginia voters.”

    The complaint does not qualify the statement by saying that the Plaintiff submitted over 11,000 petition signatures, and after examination just over 6000 were found to be from qualified Virginia voters.

    The plain language of the complaint, as written, would seem to indicate that the Plaintiff only submitted 6,000 signatures.

    It may be that the statement of fact should have been qualified.

  • thomasburkby

    If poor little Ricky’s constitutional rights were being infringed by the requirement that he use residents of Virginia to gather his petitions, he could have filed this lawsuit last September. If it had been fast-tracked, maybe he could have gotten that requirement eliminated before the deadline for submission of signatures. But he didn’t.

    Nor, so far as it appears, did he have 10,000 valid signatures regardless of the residence of the petition-gatherers. He screwed up, plain and simple. Now at the last minute he wants a court to change the rules for him. That’s a liberal’s approach to a problem. He should admit his failure like a man and move on.

    When he’s president (speaking hypothetically) and he messes up something like the liberation of Iran (again speaking hypothetically), what nice judge is going to fix THAT problem for him?

    I’m if anything more conservative than Rick Perry, but he scares me. I’d rather have someone competent like Romney running the executive branch even if he’s not quite as conservative on some issues. Where we REALLY need the additional conservatives right now is the Senate.

  • Adjoran

    You may begin collecting signatures July 1 and have 24 weeks to finish. Hundreds of candidates have met this standard, including Kucinich and six Republicans in 2008 and Alan Keyes in 2000, until the stricter standard that required the last 4 digits of the SSN on each signature.

    No rule was changed. It is Newt and Perry who want them changed, apparently because they or the people they delegated were too stupid or lazy to read them when they got them.

    Perry’s legal challenge is his right and will stand or fall, I hope and expect, on its merits. Newt is just whining.

  • thomasburkby

    Popular folklore notwithstanding, Harry Truman was not a great president. Tom Dewey would have been much better. He was incomparably more honest, and much smarter than Truman.

    Perry is not totally stupid, but neither does he possess the brilliance that one needs in the Leader of the Free World. He proved that in the debates. Being governor of Texas when the legislature is controlled by Republicans and basically does all of the work for you is not that great an accomplishment.

    We tried running a candidate of ordinary intellect once. Remember Jerry Ford? Thanks to him, we got four years of Jimmy Carter.

    I’d rather have Romney or Santorum as the nominee. Or even the adulterer.

  • snowshooze

    We were looking at the exclusions which are very lenient.
    And in those exclusions fell the Presidential Primary Nominee..
    Held outside the requirements, along with Dog Catcher… at a very low standard.
    I realize it is at a silly level, but there it was. We all read it.

  • thomasburkby

    Your comment is basically correct. However, Perry failed to show 10,000 valid signatures for reasons such as lack of address, not lack of SSN.

    The form includes a place for petitioners to note the last four digits of the SSN, but the form also clearly says that that information is “optional.” Thus, that was not Perry’s problem.

    I agree that Newt’s whining is unbecoming of a potential president. But Perry’s suit is just legal whining.

  • http://boldcolor.blogspot.com/ Paula

    “Perry is an airhead who would be annihilated in the general election. ?I?m going to shut down three federal departments on my first day in office.? ?Which ones?? ?Uh?. Duh?. Commerce?? Anyone that stupid does not deserve to have his hand on the nuclear bomb button, whatever they call it now.”

    That’s not how we roll here. You should probably take your toys and go play somewhere else.

    “As a Virginia resident, I would have gone and gotten some signatures if anyone had asked me, but they didn?t.”

    You’d have gathered signatures for a “supid airhead” who can’t be trusted with the nukes?

    I think someone upthread mentioned the possibility of signature gatherers working for the other team turning in bogus signatures. What’s the going rate for that?

  • http://boldcolor.blogspot.com/ Paula

    or in this election cycle. That’s because the VA GOP has a (for lack of a better word) tradition of assuming all the signatures are valid if a candidate can manage to turn in 15,000 of them (500/district). For all we know, Dennis Kucinich and his buddies from ACORN fabricated 5000 signatures. So implying that the process isn’t that difficult because “hundreds of candidates have met this standard” is something that can’t be proven unless we know that they were all verified signatures.

  • btpull

    As stated in Perry’s suit (see page 4):

    “On December 22, 2011, Plaintiff submitted to the Board over 6,000 petition signatures from qualified Virginia voters”

    http://www.rickperry.org/content/uploads/2011/12/Perry-VA-Ballot-Access.pdf?utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=pressRelease

    So the campaign was told they need 10K signatures with a recommendation of getting15K – 20K instead they get 6K and then sue. Really?

  • Adjoran

    for all statewide candidates. Every candidate who made the ballot had to make the statutory minimum under the rules existing at the time.

    This year’s rules were finalized in May, long before the signing period began July 1. There was plenty of time for all candidates to meet the standard.

    Perry did get in late, but one of the first meetings a serious candidate must hold before or just after declariing is the one about ballot access. Which states are easy, which are hard? Which have early deadlines? What are the requirements?

    Those who flunk that simple, basic task prove themselves unready for an undertaking of far more complexity and significance.

  • gekster

    They tossed out over half on ‘technicalities’ before they even started.

  • gekster

    …..

  • trevorb

    the new rules stated that they have to get 400 from each district, instead of being able to get all of them in a few areas.

  • gekster

    I’m being told by more than one that the number was 11,191.
    Anyone got the original number.

  • http://edgeinducedcohesion.wordpress.com nathanalbright

    …but I also believe VA doesn’t know its districts yet, which is yet another part of this mess.

  • audax

    enough said

  • MikeG

    Ever since last month, when an internal memo from Cuccinelli’s office was leaked to the press, revealing his future political plans and forcing him to officially declare his candidacy for VA-GOV ahead of schedule, the sound of long knives being drawn from their sheaths and set against the whetting stone has been resounding up and down the Commonwealth.

    Intra-party fights in Virginia are dirty, nasty, and utterly for keeps. When I was in College Republicans, the going joke was that the RPV let the various CR groups attend the annual party retreat at a steeply-discounted rate so that we could be properly trained to “eat our wounded”. We all laughed, but we all knew that assertion was only half-jesting. The political culture of the RPV fully subscribes to Conan the Barbarian’s view of what is “best in life”.

  • MikeG

    Part of the problem is that both Bill Bolling and Ken Cuccinelli are men who inspire a tremendous loyalty and admiration.

    Bill Bolling is a stand-up guy; very genuine and down-to-earth. He’s certainly the establishment pick in this one, but that’s not so much about ideology and more because he has done a lot of favors and lot of campaigning for his fellow Republicans over the years. He’s definitely conservative, and if he is the nominee, I will enthusiastically support him.

    Cuccinelli, on the other hand, is the outspoken fiscal and social conservative with a proven ability to win elections, even in his solidly-purple Northern Virginia state senate district. Conservative activists love him, liberals DESPISE him, and depending on who in the party you ask, Cuccinelli is either a fearless champion of conservative causes, or a grandstanding publicity hound who picks fights over secondary issues like gay rights and climate change.

    YMMV on both these guys, but each would make an excellent governor.

  • Wubbies World

    http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/12/27/perry-suing-get-virginia-ballot

    It is not over….

  • APA Guy

    Let’s not forget…Perry submitted the required number of signatures. Some were tossed…that’s the only reason he isn’t on the ballot.

  • APA Guy

    Let’s not forget…Perry submitted the required number of signatures. Some were tossed…that’s the only reason he isn’t on the ballot.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    Here is the summary…
    http://thepage.time.com/2011/12/27/perry-challenges-va-ballot-decision/?iid=sl-main-arenapage
    …which is now being highlighted on FNC.

    Here is a hyperlink to the filing…
    http://www.rickperry.org/content/uploads/2011/12/Perry-VA-Ballot-Access.pdf
    …which appears reasonable.

    This is fascinating….

  • avagreen

    Those signature requirements, by the way, were 10,000 signatures including 500 in each of the state?s congressional districts. What apparently tripped up Gingrich and Perry was the requirement that petition signers list their addresses.

    A Gingrich campaign official prior to the move by the RPV said the problem is how the rules are set up, arguing that the party is, for apparently the first time, cross-checking the addresses that signature-givers gave against the electronic voter database file for accuracies. A name without a proper address match was tossed, the official said.

    ?What one needs to ask is ?what percentage of valid, registered voters self-identify a current address that matches voter rolls that the voter might not have updated since 2008?? Are you 100% certain that your address you and all of your neighbors matches current voter rolls? It strikes me that this is not an accurate means to identify registered voters signing for ANY candidate, not just Gingrich,? the official wrote.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/286645/virginias-gop-primary-ballot-romney-paul-and-thats-it

    Soooooo, what this means is that every voter that did not change their address from the 2008 voter rolls has been?DISENFRANCHISED from voting for their guy.

    Yeahh??.this is going to the courts.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …which succinctly appears to frame the legal/political issues:

    http://www.frumforum.com/what-really-happened-in-virginia#more-108416

  • Wubbies World

    …. that he submitted enough to skip the certification process BEFORE the rules were changed.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …this clarification is of-interest:

    “McDonnell would be barred from seeking re-election by Virginia’s unique one-term limit.”

    http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/1039fba75f0644ec809f27a5df6707e0/VA–Cuccinelli-GOP/

  • Common_Cents

    Even FOX is too busy bashing Gingrich for not being organized and failing to be on the ballot.

    I’ve seen absolutely NOTHING on any of these suits or developments or proposals by Cucinelli.

    It must be ruining their narrative.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …because you need to allege “damages” simultaneously.

  • acat

    Romney’s “competence” at appointing judges alone ought to have Conservatives rather .. upset with him.

    Mew

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …because the total-mandate is so high [noting prior voting data].

  • acat

    and put the big six (Romney, Paul, Gingrich, Perry, Bachmann, Santorum) on the ballot at *very* little increased cost …

    I fail to see why they would let this get too far. I expect them to settle.

    Mew

  • Common_Cents

    Since the office of the President was not named specifically, as other offices and their requirements, were.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …with this quote: “Not an impressive display for either the Perry or Newt campaigns. Navigating legal morass is a campaign requirement (see campaign finance laws) not to mention a challenge for sitting Presidents.”

    Noting the “denominator” of ~100K and the “numerator” of ~12K [plus the multitude of candidates], it would appear that the current law would almost mandate the circulators conduct the campaign prior to the filing deadline!

  • jakeofalltrades

    Count 2 bases its claim on the 14th amendment’s substantive due process jurisprudence. For 1st amendment rights, there is heightened scrutiny (Count 1), which Virginia may or may not pass.

    Count 2 – if based on a theory of disenfranchisement – may fall under the strongest Constitutional test (strict scrutiny) – which is otherwise known as “where bad laws go to die”.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …that you are solidifying a “troll”-like image.

    Just for example, Ford lost because of the Nixon Pardon, just about all pundits [then and now] concur.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    ….because, as opposed to The Newt, Perry is action-oriented!

  • jakeofalltrades

    if the issues are “ripe”.

    What would Perry have plead? “I don’t feel like trying too hard in Virginia, so I’m probably gonna wing getting signatures for these petitions, and I’d like you, almighty federal district court judge – who isn’t busy at all – to go ahead and throw that law out now so I don’t have to sweat,”

    I don’t think you could find a lawyer who would file that complaint.

  • 1bunny

    at least acccording to a story on Hot Air and Newt had about 900 less.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    they don’t appear to be on the same page internally. I think they would’ve already done this if they were able to get enough people to agree one way or the other. I gotta admit it’s fun to watch though!

  • jakeofalltrades

    Watch for an amended complaint to allege all 11,191.

  • 1bunny

    that some were thrown out because they were not double spaced or were only on one side of a page and not both. Didn’t matter that the sigs could be “correct” they were automatically tossed out. I find that questionable to do that. At least verify them as they were submitted whether they followed these arbitrary rules of sides of the pages or double spaced. Disenfranchising voters who took the time to fill out the paperwork is wrong. And roughly half were thrown out, I find that suspicious.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Count 2 actually is pretty strong. Disenfranchising a voter because of nitpicking may or may not pass strict scrutiny – and it probably won’t.

    In general, nothing passes strict scrutiny.

  • btpull

    The complaint states that Perry submitted 6,000 signatures to the Election Board as a part of his petition package to get on the ballot. If he had 11,191 valid signatures he should have submitted them all, regardless if the VA GOP agreed or did not agree.

    Ultimately it is the candidate submitting the petition, not the party. Regardless of who, how, and when the signatures are verified it is candidates responsibility to gather and submit a valid petition of signatures based on the rules and directions provided by the State.

  • lizzie

    Just pointing this out as a possible reason why the VA GOP disqualified 5,191 of the 11,191 (and no, I am not double-checking that total) of the signatures collected by the Perry campaign.

    Whatever. I continue to think this lawsuit focussing on the 1st and 14th Amendments, with so many precedents, with such a high-powered VA+TX legal team, is genius by the Perry campaign.

    Certainly more Presidential than the ‘Newt Romney’ descent into whether Newt’s campaign reminds Romney of the “I Love Lucy” chocolate factory episode, and whther Romney will say it to Newt’s face, or whether Romney was ‘just joking’. I am old enough to remember that episode, but find Romney’s sense of humor oddly juvenile..

    Still want to know why Huntsman (especially Huntsman), Bachmann, and Santorum did not even try to get on the VA primary ballot.
    What was different this year?

    As to thomasburkby’s disdain for Harry S. Truman, thomasburkby sounds like he relies on folklore instead of history.
    Last year, I read McCullough’s “Truman” bio, then Truman’s personal memoirs of his WH years, then Behrman’s “The Most Noble Adventure: the Marshall Plan and the Time when America helped save Europe”, and the relevant parts of George Kennan’s memoir “Sketches from a Life” before reaching my own conclusion about the lingering mythology that Dewey was smarter, or that Truman was a ‘ man too small for the Presidency’.

    I add here that my paper on the Coolidge presidency for a grad school class in 2004 on “History of the Presidency” almost convinced my Schlesinger-liberal professor that Coolidge was the most under-rated president in history – my prof thought I should turn that paper into a full bio.

    So, when I look at the current GOP field (and elsewhere on the failed Obama leadership), I do so from the perspective of somone whose non-ideological research breaks through the litmus tests, media echoes, etc.

    America should be so lucky to have Calvin Coolidge and Harry S. Truman on the ballot today. The only two Presidents of the 20th century whose greatness was due to having:
    the childhood experience of manual labor,
    deep religious faith,
    strong family (and both faithful to their first loves, altho Grace Coolidge was the best First Lady),
    true fiscal conservatism,
    highest personal integrity, and
    always putting the interest of America before any personal ambition.

    Our two ‘accidental’ presidents proved to be our best, once you take the time to delve for the truth.

  • acat

    Perhaps facing lawyers will change their minds.

    Agree, though… it is fun to watch the establishmentarians try to defend “their” turf.

    Mew

  • Scope

    on facebook last night. I copied that statement from an article written by Lovettsville Lady, posted at Virginia Virtucon.

    _________________________________

    ??After reading all of the comments on the Presidential Primary in 2012, I feel compelled to say something.

    First of all, I am neutral in the Primary. As the Party?s leader I think that it?s important I ensure a level playing field, not take a side. Plus, any one of our nominees will be better than the current occupant of the White House. Our Country is spiraling downward, economically and socially, and we need to be united to win in November, 2012.

    Second, the Republican Party of Virginia merely certifies petition signatures. We don?t set ballot access laws. Those laws are set by the General Assembly, not by the RPV.

    The candidates for President all knew the laws set by the Commonwealth of Virginia that they needed to abide by to get on the ballot. We can?t change the rules mid-game to right what may or may not be a wrong. The law is the law.

    Lastly, this is a personal opinion. Virginia is the cradle of Democracy. The ballot access laws should be modified and streamlined to allow greater participation. We can?t do anything about 2012 at this point. But I do intend to appeal to our General Assembly and elected leaders to bring Virginia?s ballot access more in line with other states ? simpler and streamlined with greater access. I think it?s important that the people in Virginia get to vote for the candidate of their choice, not be restricted.

    One more thing ? Rick Perry sued Virginia, RPV and me today, so I probably going to be told by our lawyers I can?t say anything more about this. It?s not usual that I?m sued by someone I like, but politics is strange, huh? :}?”

    ___________________________________________

    I love the way he agrees that the VA ballot access laws need to be changed in order to bring the laws more in line with other states, simpler and more streamlined with greater access. But not this year, it’s too late for that now. If the guy has known that the ballot access laws/rules were difficult and more onerous, why is he just saying that now, after he has personally been named in the Perry lawsuit? Pat Mullins has been a part of the RPV, in one capacity or another for many many years, this isn’t a brand new issue.

    As to Perry he says- “It’s not unusual that I am sued by someone I like, but politics is strange huh?” In other words because he says he likes Perry, Perry should just take one for the team and just accept the shoddiness of this outcome?

    As LL said, this guy is in essence agreeing with Perry, and will not likely be a very good witness in his own defense. I still keep going back to the fact that the State Election Laws apply to all parties, but, since 2004, the DNC has relaxed the signature requirement number down to 4-5,000 for all Democrats running for any office in VA. Has anyone heard the first peep out of the RNC Chair. Reince Preibus concerning this situation? I would say that what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and the RNC could then step in and go back to the prior rules that 10,000 submitted signatures satisfied the requirement, and no verification is necessary.

  • wingnut43

    Standing outside the polling places to get signatures would seem to be smart politiking. Surely the rest of the candidates knew that Virginia had a legislative election in 2011.

    The law could be changed before the Primary if no State Senators defect and if the Governor signs it. Two very big iffs. And you can’t allow write-ins without allowing them in a contest where only Obama is on the ballot, and the State isn’t going to want to pay for 2 primaries.

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