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Court explains reasoning on VA absentee ballot court order.

By: Moe Lane (Diary)  |  January 10th, 2012 at 06:30 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

OK, let me try to explain just what is going on in this court order involving the VA GOP primary ballot. For those who came in late: back in December, Virginia’s primary registration system ended up producing a result where only two Republican candidates (Mitt Romney and Ron Paul) qualified for the ballot. This resulted in some frankly unkind things said about virtually everyone involved in the process, from the candidates to the Republican party of Virginia – usually involving competence levels, although conspiracy theorizing certainly wasn’t underrepresented. While that was going on, Gov. Rick Perry filed a lawsuit (one later joined by Newt Gingrich, Jon Huntsman, and Rick Santorum*) challenging the constitutionality of the process. Yesterday the judge hearing the case ordered the Commonwealth of Virginia not to issue absentee ballots; today’s order explains why.

To clarify: this order does not actually indicate that the court will rule in favor of the plaintiffs on Friday. It instead indicates that there is a very strong possibility that the court may order in favor of the plaintiffs on Friday on at least one count (specifically, on the constitutionality of mandating only in-state petition circulators). So while it would be reasonable to bet that this order will result in more candidates being added to the ballot, it is not yet a done deal. It is also possible that the court will rule that there were unconstitutional restrictions on who could circulate a ballot, yet come up with a remedy that will still exclude one or more candidates. Never underestimate a legal judgement’s capacity for convoluted thinking. But the courts, historically speaking, have been forgiving when it comes to voter access; so, again, it’s reasonable to bet that Friday’s decision will result in more candidates being added to the ballot**.

Also: if you’ve been arguing from the start that this case was self-evidently without merit, well, you should probably stop doing that. Hey, don’t take it up with me. Take it up with the US District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia…

Moe Lane (crosspost)

*For the record: all three campaigns potentially owe the Perry campaign a big favor on this.

**Which, by the way, will almost certainly mean that Romney will still win Virginia. A pity that they didn’t take the high road, here: you’d think that any competent campaign would have seen the advantages of taking a principled position that wouldn’t have actually cost them anything…

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COMMENTS

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  • sunshinek67

    are furious with this decision. It’s everywhere in the blog world :)

  • ghostship

    So I guess rules are meant to be broken when ones candidates are too incompetent to get on the ballot.

  • flgal208

    because I detest being a hypocrite…but, good grief WHY is it so difficult to get on a ballot WHEN you’re being invited to national debates? When you’ve announced your candidacy and obviously have a campaign team? Huntsman didn’t make Az, Santorum didn’t make all the counties in (Wisconsin, I think)…what is going on??? Is this a typical government thing where they see a problem (everyone and their brother entering a race) and rather than address it in a common sense way, screw the …out of it?

    This is one of the few times where I think ALL the states should make ONE rule that applies to all the states. And I would think this even IF it was Willard who wasn’t on the ballots…

  • AceInTX

    Good Work

  • AceInTX

    Moron

  • David123

    if all the candidates are on the Virginia ballot

  • greyeagle

    turned in 11,900 signatures and Newt turned in 11,100 signatures. There were enough tossed to put them below 10,000. There was a lot of tossing. I have never seen a complete answer on these. There was a change by the GOP in November, after the signatures were already being collected. I understand something with the November mandate (which I read a bunch of comments on it) said it did not match the VA election law. So something smells. Guess Romney expected to win there. He may still, but the people of VA will only have Romney and Paul as a voting choice. If I were voters in VA, the GOP should shape up or leaders would be changed quickly, then I would address the stupid election laws Just my opinion.

  • jakeofalltrades

    They weren’t expecting to be campaigning that long.

  • AceInTX

    and the contempt with which the SMittheads are treating the rest of us does their preferred candidate no favors

  • ghostship

    Are Romney and Paul some kind of super candidates? Are they able to leap tall voting booths in a single bound? If that’s the case then maybe they deserve to be the only ones on the ballot.

    It was incompetence on the other candidates part that didn’t they collect enough signatures with a big enough margin to avoid being rejected.

    All of this whining about how it was too hard to get on the ballot is unseemly. I expect this sort of stuff from the Democrats when they don’t get the results they wanted but it’s disgraceful to see so many Republicans act in the same manor.

  • baserunr

    will rush to file a lawsuit that the rules are unconstitutional, but will stand idly (but not silently) by why Obama abrogates all the rules of the appointment process. The rules may be inconvenient, frustrating, and restrictive, but they are the rules. The rules however should not be changed during the game (see Florida, election 2000). If that’s what has happened here, then the complaint has merit. If not, they need to quit complaining, play by the rules, and live with the results (see Florida, election 2000).

    It’s certainly something Obama is not willing to do.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    You’ve got until Friday, after all: who knows? Maybe they’ll care.

  • Adjoran

    Elections matter.

    None of the signatures were thrown out because of who collected them, but that’s the issue he ruled likely to succeed at trial.

    Funny how no one complained about the rules until they screwed up.

  • Adjoran

    just hyping their book sales and speaking fees – neither ever figured to be a contender and were obviously unprepared for that.

  • michaelvcowan

    The state GOP should be forced to reimburse the two candidates that made the state ballot legally. If you can’t make the simple and fair requirements that the only two legitimate campaigns easily made, then you don’t have any business wasting the time of Va’s voters.

  • michaelvcowan

    …as long as the candidate you dislike most is the brunt? Wow, how my once noble Party has sunk.

  • Finrod

    Since I can’t fix the former, I’ll address the latter.

    The parties in Virginia are the ones that check the signatures. Before November 2011 (AFTER signature-gathering had started), the GOP standard was that if a candidate got more than 10K signatures, they wouldn’t bother to check them. But in November 2011, they changed that 10K number to 15K and decided to start checking, for the very first time, the signatures of candidates that got more than 10K but less than 15K.

    It doesn’t surprise anyone that 1) Romney’s head guy in VA was involved in this process, 2) Romney’s campaign magically was one of the two that had >15K signatures, 3) The standards they used were incredibly vicious (by far the strictest in the country) so that all the campaigns that got more than 10K but less than 15K signatures had enough signatures disqualified to drop them below 10K.

    So are you going to say that it’s OK to change the rules mid-stream like this, or are you going to back down on your bogus assertions? It’s one or the other, Buckaroo Banzai.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Elections DO matter! That’s why the court will find that voter choice trumps your Pharisaic insistence on rules.

  • JSobieski

    he used out of state signature collectors, in violation of the statute.

    That is a factor that the campaign had control over, and blew it.

    Why didn’t Perry and Newt use the time in late November to get more signatures?

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    Link, second page. But I can insist that you read my posts [before you comment on them], and I am doing so here.

    This is not a topic for debate, and I am not so much indifferent to your objections as I am expectant that you will not say them to my face anyway.

  • Scope

    There is absolutely no proof at all that Perry used out of state signature collectors, and that that was why so many of his signatures were thrown out. The only place that has ever been stated was from someone who wrote an article, claimed that Perry used out of state signature collectors, but doesn’t even go so far as claiming his information is from “an inside source” or whatever. He just states it as a fact without an evidence. No one from the Perry campaign, the VA GOP, or the State Board of Elections has ever reported that information. At this time it is unknown to everyone outside of those involved as to exactly why his signatures were invalidated.

    Another article talking about an interview with a signature validation witness who was in the room when the signatures were being validated, has claimed the same incompetence and lack of training of the volunteers that had showed up in many local articles shortly after the fiasco. Yes, Mr. Wilkin is a Gingrich supporter, but I have no reason to doubt his word. A separate lawsuit was filed with the Richmond Circuit Court, on behalf of Newt Gingrich, by a VA atty., who is arguing the GOP procedures in validation.

    Here is the brief filed by the ACLU. (ugh) The ACLU seems to be backing up exactly what the original Perry lawsuit has claimed in that it is an infringement on free speech to make so narrow a requirement on who is qualified to collect those signatures. The ACLU does not mention it, but it interests me greatly that even Gov. Perry himself would be disqualified from collecting signatures on his own behalf, as he is not a resident of the state of VA.

    Without the facts, it can also be speculated that the reason he didn’t collect enough valid signatures, or enough signatures, which is also an unknown at this time, that because he could not use out of state signature collectors that he was hampered in the effort to collect the signatures required.

  • Tbone

    Perhaps Republican Congressional leaders wouldn’t be so ineffective.

  • johnnyd

    I do not understand how any fair poll/caucus/voting can have such rules.

    Force to reimburse? How about be forced to check ALL signatures from all the candidates instead fo only if you have 15,000 or less?

    So the possibility of you cheating to get 15,000 signatures and not even having them validated is a fair rule? This is they type of rule that turns off voters. It stinks of wiggle room to give a preference over others and promotes cheating. Not too mention it takes lots of money to fulfill the requirements which weeds out any non elitists candidates.

    I’m not saying anyone cheated but how do we really know? I would immediately have every signature and requirements validated and see how many are crying foul then

  • ghostship

    You can toss insults all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that the Romney and Paul campaigns have got their act together. Romney has the money and support of the Republican Establishment and Paul has enthusiastic supporters who will follow him to Hell and back.

    You can’t say that about the other candidates campaigns with a straight face. Perry’s team apparently thought that running for president would be little different than running for governor and despite all the positive momentum when they started managed to blow it all away. Gingrich had his staff resign en mass. These are not campaigns that got their act together.

    The truth is that it was incompetence and not some great conspiracy that kept the other candidates off the ballot. You can believe what you want but reality doesn’t care about your opinions.

  • AceInTX

    I don’t normally start name calling till someone has had six or eight posts in reply to me to prove themselves an absolute and unmitigated ass…

    congratulations…you’ve achieved in a single post what most people I encounter on Red State spend entire threads to achieve…bravo!!

  • AceInTX

    There is nothing new here….what galls me is…it’s not bad enough that these slimeballs rigged the game by changing the rules after everyone gathered enough signatures to get on the ballot under the old rules… the most galling aspect is the arrogance and condensation from asswipes like ghostship toward those of us calling the VA GOP on their chicanery

  • AceInTX

    at the end of the game….this is the equivalent of tilting the game board to prevent the other guys from competing

  • AceInTX

    but by all means…prattle one…

    you are putting on full display what I loath so much about Romney supports and why I went from a potential supporter to an anyone but Wafflin Willard fanatic.

  • AceInTX

    Or maybe you’re just ignoring that fact because the way this game was rigged benefits your boy “Windsock Willard”

  • AceInTX

    .

  • jakeofalltrades

    JSob and I have had lengthy discussion about this, and the facts we used were that the signatures were thrown out due to the petition-collector residency requirement. We can’t keep up with every new revelation in the facts, but thanks for the update, Ace.

  • David123

    Apparently the court thinks that Virginia itself may have violated the rules. And not just any rules, but the Constitution.

    As a practical matter, keeping the other candidates off the ballot may hand Virginia to Ron Paul, and elevate him to a role as kingmaker at a divided convention.

  • JSobieski

    If you read the complaint, it also says something about Perry submitting around 6,000 some odd signatures while the news reports said he submitted more than 11,000.

    Newt also failed ot meet the requirement, but he had far fewer signatures thrown out.

    Perry filed a lawsuit, while Newt did not. Newt later joined of course, along with others.

    This is pretty good circumstantial evidence of what happened. Otherwise, while focus on the lawsuit on the collector requirements?

    Note that the complaint makes absolutely no mention of any rules changes by the GOP.

  • jimmyg

    http://law.justia.com/lawsearch?cx=011046897265700545572:7wos8fr6e24&query=perry+v.+judd+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Flaw.justia.com&queryappend=site:law.justia.com&sa=Search%20Justia&cof=FORID:11

    You can read every pleading filed in the Perry lawsuit by following the above link

    It appears the Court will find a constitutional violation. That is not the ballgame. In my opinion the weakest part of the Plaintiff’s response to the defendant’s arguments urging the Court to deny the relief sought by Perry is the Defendant’s response to the Plaintiff’s argument that the plaintiffs should have sought the assistance of the Court earlier, or the Doctrine of Laches.

    Perry argues that the injury occurred when he was denied a ballot spot. I presume the State will argue that the injury to Perry occurred when he filed his declaration as a candidate. That is, at that time he knew that he could not use out of state petition circulators.

    Perry will argue that Laches does not apply because the State has
    not been prejudiced in that the ballots have not been printed.

    In the end it may not matter who wins.

  • JSobieski

    it makes no mention of any rules change.

    I am not ignoring any facts that Perry’s own lawyers are not also ignoring.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Way to go, JSobieski and jimmyg.

  • jakeofalltrades

    I assumed Ace was referring to an amended complaint that I heard about but did not read.

  • nocontest

    Exactly this was pure incompetence. If they can’t get this right then why would we want them as our president?

  • jakeofalltrades

    Can’t those guys follow the rules? Why would we even want them deciding who can be on a ballot?

  • AceInTX

    It’s a sick freaking joke that the voters of VA have only two choices when they vote one primary election day…

    I have no doubt they would lose of they pleaded the last minute rules change before the court because the letter of the law says they were within their rights to do so…I’ve never argued JSob was wrong in what he says about the letter of the law…it’s the sneaky, underhanded way this was done that galls…

    and nowhere in the discussion have I heard anyone ask, what is Romney afraid of if these other candidates are on the ballot. If he were the great principled leader he claims to be…why doesn’t he stand up and demand the other candidates be included on the ballot?

    Al DeMato lamented about how they gamed the system for Dole in NY recently…and this is more of the same from an establishment who refuses to honor the will of the conservative majority and insists on gaming the system to favor their chosen liberal candidates….

    It sickens me!

  • nocontest

    Obviously they were playing by their own rules and got caught. Now they are whining and losers to boot.

  • JSobieski

    You obviously didn’t read it.

  • JSobieski

    I know you want to pin this on the VA GOP, but this problem was avoidable.

    When the law says X and someone in power says wink wink you need only —you should NEVER believe them.

    A cop can tell you repeatedly that they wont ticket you for going less than 10 over.

    One day, they change their mind and you are going to get a ticket.

  • joshdunn

    Is that in Article Retard?

  • jakeofalltrades

    Then there’s the 14th.

  • JSobieski

    It was a Colorado case…Buckley was one of the names on the case.

    Anyway, in the context of a ballot initiative (candidates might be different), the VA law would violate the 1st Amendment.

    Perry’s argument on Count I is potentially quite strong. There is some analysis in the Buckley case that could differentiate between candidate petitions and issue petitions, but Perry has at least a 50/50 shot.

  • jakeofalltrades

    then one of the articles gets involved.

  • joshdunn

    The rules were there for any candidate to review. Mitt Romney and Ron Paul had their campaigns send people to Virginia and other states to make sure that they could get the signatures in compliance with Virginia law.

    I’m not sure how Perry/Gingrich are going to win this one but when the ACLU is on your side, it can’t be a good thing.

    I’m so tired of the whining.

  • jakeofalltrades

    n.t.

  • joshdunn

    That is absurd. You think that there are that many people in the GOP who are so against Romney that they would vote for Ron “Hezbollah” Paul?

    Seriously?

  • joshdunn

    It’s an equal protection issue then. Perry is arguing that his signature collectors were denied the 14th Amendment’s guarantee of Equal Protection of Law because the law discriminated against them for not being Virginia residents.

    He could actually prevail on that argument.

    The hard part is proving that he could not have mitigated this situation by making his complaint months ago. The doctrine that the Commonwealth of Virginia will rely on is laches.

    Interesting legal points all around here tonight. I apologize for my earlier snarkiness. Once the ACLU was invoked, I started seeing red.

  • jimmyg

    Bolling is Romney’s campain chair in VA.. Jerry Kilgore is Perry’s campaign chair in VA. Both of these guys are members of the VA Republican Central Committee.

    Nobody gamed the system, but somebody was asleep at the wheel.

    The following is from the VA Republican Central Committe website

    Ex-Officio
    Hon. Jerry Kilgore

    Ex-Officio
    Hon. William T. Bolling
    E-mail Bill
    Ex-Officio
    Hon. Robert F. McDonnell

    Ex-Officio
    Hon. Kenneth Cuccinelli

    http://rpv.org/node/270

  • joshdunn

    Only Ron Paul is a current member of the U.S. Congress. Still, all of the candidates should get on record with regard to the way that Obama has essentially just appointed himself emperor by making recess appointments when the senate was not in recess.

    This always happens the same way: Democrats block judges and other appointments when they are out of power. Then, once they are in power, they argue that the Constitution does not apply to them.

    Obama must be stopped. Every American gets kicked in the teeth when Obama starts making recess appointments when the senate is not in recess. The Dems refuse to play by the rules.

  • jakeofalltrades

    So I can’t answer. Something happened to the case that caused the judge to issue the injunction since the last time I reviewed it, so I am out of date.

  • joshdunn

    I just read Perry’s complaint. Apparently, his argument is a lot weaker than the one that I just came up with.

    Perry is arguing that HIS right to free speech and association has been violated by the laws that Virginia passed regarding who can circulate a petition.

    I’m racking my brain right now to figure out if Buckley v. Valeo is controlling here. It might be persuasive. Buckley v. Valeo said that the government cannot regulate how much money is spent on an election because spending money on advertising is a form of “speech”. If that is the case, then Perry might be able to make his argument that his voice was silenced by an unconstitutional law.

    I still think that Virginia can make a rather interesting laches defense. I’m on pins and needles now. This is almost as exciting as Bush v. Gore: the Superbowl of all lawsuits.

  • joshdunn

    It’s not exactly on point but it’s pretty close. Buckley v. Valeo says that states cannot regulate campaign expenditures. Campaign expenditures are a form of political speech which is protected by the First Amendment. The states are bootstrapped onto the First Amendment by the 14th Amendment.

  • JSobieski

    nt

  • joshdunn

    Read Perry’s complaint. http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/virginia/vaedce/3:2011cv00856/275068/1/0.pdf?ts=1325095634

    Perry is just saying that he has a right to use anyone he wants to circulate petitions. Next week, the ACLU will argue that denying illegal aliens the right to vote is a violation of THEIR first amendment rights. Perry should support them on this. Return the favor.

  • joshdunn

    This is why Perry is suing (fronting the money) and Gingrich is just joining him on the suit. Find out how much of the legal fees are being paid by Gingrich’s bare bones presidential campaign.

    My enlightened guess is zero.

  • JSobieski

    The case is cite in paragraph 25 of the Complaint, link provided below

    http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/virginia/vaedce/3:2011cv00856/275068/1/0.pdf?1325095634

  • joshdunn

    Although I cringed when I first heard that Perry was suing to get onto the ballot, it has created a little drama in a primary that needs a little more drama.

    Romney v. Paul is not creating the kind of drama that Bush v. McCain created in 2000. Even Clinton v. Obama was more exciting than this. What with all the accusations of sexism, racism, etc.

    Romney needs to start wearing a leather jacket with metal studs to spice up his image. Maybe some facepaint or something.

  • JSobieski

    but the argument for saying something was rigged is pretty weak.

    The Board of Elections put out a document in May 2011 advising the campaigns what to do. Neither Newt nor Perry followed that advice, and they found themselves in trouble.

    Given a choice between (1) following what a statute says in black and while (and confirmed by the Board of Elections document) or (2) following some squishy informal unwritten “guidance” by a GOP establishment, what would you choose?

    If you follow (1), nothing can change without changing the law. If you follow (2), you are basically engaging in wink wink nod nod with people you have no reason to trust.

    If a small business client took the approach that the campaigns did, they would totally get screwed. Ever try to navigate the transfer of a liquor license?

  • joshdunn

    He has David Boies’ cell number on speed dial. Just in case.

  • pttx333

    And if the Court rules it so? Care to explain that?

  • joshdunn

    The rules were posted well in advance. These are the same rules that all of the candidates figured out in 2008, 2004, 2000, 1996, etc.

    Perry did not get enough valid signatures. So now he is suing with the argument that if Virginia had allowed out-of-state signature gatherers to collect signatures, he could have gotten onto the ballot.

    But wait, did Perry even try to get his out-of-state signature gatherers into Virginia? No, he did not. He simply waited until the deadline, tried to slip in an insufficient number of valid signatures, and then complained after the game was over that his rights were violated. Unbelievable. He will need to cry with real tears to sell this one.

  • gekster

    Throwing crap against the wall really doesn’t work.

  • JSobieski

    Read the statute and see if you could figure out how to prepare the paperwork properly.

    The different ways you can get entire sheets of signatures thrown out is impressive.

    If a thoughtful class of high schoolers would need to retain a lawyer to avoid botching the job of getting signatures—the requirements are an unecessary hassle.

    The VA ballot access requirements are stupid.

    My issue with laws like this is that small fish get caught in the net all the time. The big guys don’t receive the gotchas.

  • pttx333

    got ‘em coming at us from the left and the LEFT! Hope our guys have enough “magic wands” on hand to deal with ‘em.

    You doing okay? Been out a few days – my son was in the hospital.

    Mom

  • JSobieski

    The law is well established and unchanged.
    The history of its enforcement was NOT unchanged.

    Both sides on this argument are wrong–the one’s saying GOP conspiracy are wrong and you are wrong as well.

    The only thing you are right about is that the best advice in meeting administrative requirements like the VA law are to make sure to both follow the statutory authority and the informal guidance of the election people, If the advice differrs, go with the higher number not the lower number.

    The campaigns either got bad advice, or there is a shortage of peopel available to get signatures. Should be a matter of time and money, and the “change” everyone talks about happened in November—still a month before the signatures were actually due.

  • joshdunn

    I do. My prediction is that Perry will lose his home state of Texas. To Mitt Romney. And then Perry will sue that the election wasn’t fair.

    It’s par for the course for this guy. He’ll never, ever admit that he lost.

  • joshdunn

    Should they be added? They didn’t collect any signatures.

    You’re not going to have all of the candidates on the ballot even if Perry is correct that he would have had enough signatures if Virginia had allowed his imaginary out-of-state petition circulators into the Commonwealth. (sniff, sniff)

    The court may entertain Perry’s argument. But it is a pathetic one.

  • gekster

    You would have to show me prior history of him doing such.

  • joshdunn

    We’ve all played sports at one time or another. Perry had ample time during the game itself to complain about the rules. He could have sued months ago if the only people he could find to circulate petitions were from outside of Virginia. (BTW, it is usually a very bad strategy to fly in people from out of state to circulate petitions. Once the word gets out that you deliberately chose not to use native Virginians, you are kind of cooked.)

    Romney had his people going to GOP meetings in every Congressional district in Virginia to make sure that his campaign was in compliance with law. Now, if Perry is right, the laws don’t matter because Perry has a right to free speech and that means that he should be able to use anyone he wants to circulate petitions. He cannot say that this was the only reason why he did not produce the requisite number of signatures.

    The real reason is very simple: he was unprepared.

    Is he really prepared to be leader of the free world? Nah. That’s a big boy job.

  • JSobieski

    Conservatives should take the opportunity to fix these stupid laws.

  • joshdunn

    It really won’t matter if he gets onto the ballot in Virginia because he is currently polling 4th in South Carolina. He will not be invited to the CNN debate in SC because he doesn’t meet their threshold to be considered a viable candidate. Romney will be there. Paul will be there. Santorum will be there. Gingrich will be there. Perry will not be there. Perry cannot blame anyone but himself for his inability to organize an effective campaign. The other candidates (except for Romney) can complain about lack of funding. Perry had funding. He just could not get on top of the game.

  • joshdunn

    The fat lady has already sung on this one.

  • joshdunn

    Assuming that Romney gets the nomination (a safe assumption), I would be surprised if he were to pick any of his primary opponents as a running mate.

    They’ve all gone negative. Some of them (Gingrich) in violation of promises not to go negative.

    I expect Romney to pick someone like Marco Rubio or Nikki Haley. Tom Coburn, Chris Christie, and Jon Cornyn would also be great choices.

    Romney is now out-polling Obama in Florida, New Hampshire, and Ohio and he is virtually tied with Obama in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Nevada.

    We can win this one!

  • joshdunn

    I love the law. It is so beautiful to see what we Americans have created. Especially when you compare it to other parts of the world.

    We are pretty special people.

  • Not For Perry Any Longer

    Then why didn’t they have Virginia natives doing it?
    And on the flip side — So what if he had hired leer jets full of folk to do the work — is it a new VA law or something? ! VA has been getting really weird lately.

  • joshdunn

    Based on the Supreme Court’s refinement of that doctrine in the seminal case of Buckley v. ACLF (1999). Perry may actually have a leg to stand on. But he has to move fairly fast. The primary in Virginia is rapidly approaching and the Commonwealth must send out the absentee ballots soon or the rights of soldiers overseas will be compromised.

  • joshdunn

    He is essentially arguing that but for Virginia’s mean-spirited and harsh laws, he MIGHT HAVE been able to use out-of-state workers to get the signatures. Because of these laws, he would have had to have circulated petitions in Virginia using Virginians. And that is just too hard for a guy who jumps into the presidential race at the last minute and tries to qualify. (I know, cheese and whine, right?)

  • No Longer For Perry

    If true — this points to poor judgment and insight.

  • lizzie

    Fortunately when you average 7, 6, and 7 from three national polls, and round up, you get 7.
    (ok, I think CNN likes Perry – he is very likeable)

    anyway, I continue to find it so interesting that there are still people who say ‘Perry’s a whiner – rules are rules’

    instead of wondering what it is about Virginia in 2012 when Santorum, Huntsman, and Bachmann did not even TRY to get on the Virginia ballot.
    No one knocks them for being ‘disorganized’.

    And that ONLY the two candidates who ran in 2008 succeeded.

    That says to me that you need to run for the nomination for more than one solid fulltime year (preferably three-four years) just to build a national state-by-state team.

    I continue to think that Perry is making a brilliant point – he personally can not go to Virginia to collect ballot access signatures? How very un-American.

    Glad to hear the ACLU finally found a case worth their time :) been waiting for years for that to happen.

  • http://www.timothy-bladel.com/ center77

    from my understanding of the rules, they are all jacked up. Perry and Newt seemed to feel they had enough, but Perry got in much later than everyone else, and his team was pretty behind, Newt probably didn’t really think he would ever rise so high in the pills. It seems to me this thing is going to be over anyways, Newt will not get enough people to pick him and his baggage over Romney and his baggage, of course the media barley talks down Romney at all, and Fox and the National Review are working with him.

    All this is lame, but in the end if its Romney against Newt, ill take the governor anyways, they would both lose, but 2016 would be much more in favor for a real conservative, which both of them are Central government people who wouldn’t do lick to send the corrupted machine to the junk yard. Still think Beers a progressive, and still think Romney is a fraud, but only one has never been to Washington, at least not elected, Romney sent the mandate, Newt told them it was conservative in the first place.

  • mbrat42

    You can hold this against Perry if you want, it’s your choice. Personally, I think Gingrich and Perry have given a wake up call. The Bain story and movie weren’t going to stay in a vault somewhere, hidden away, if only Gingrich and Perry had kept their mouths shut. It hits Romney directly in the area that caused NH voters to vote for him, electibility. Given the disdain in the country towards Wall Street and CEO’s, Bain will panic Democrats and left leaning Independents. Those that may have voted Republican will vote for Obama out of fear, and the base will be fired up.

    Many of those posting here seem to have the idea that all Conservatives and Republicans believe that this is Capitalism and should be defended at all costs. Some of you don’t seem to realize that there are many who, while they agree with free markets, do not approve of unethical business practices. Detailed information is not easy to find, I’ve been trying (I admit I’m no pro). The deal with KB Toys looks bad, whether you approve or not, it looks bad.

    Another thing that looks bad is Romney’s involvement with Damon Clinical Labs. Damon was involved in Medicare fraud while Romney sat on the board of directors. I have read a defense of Romney that said the company wasn’t owned by Bain, it had been sold to Corning. This looks to be false.

    If I am wrong, feel free to correct me. However, if it is this hard for a person trying to find info to defend Romney, those who don’t have the time or don’t care to look will go on ads alone.

  • AceInTX

    and what of past precedent?

    the past president was…you get 10,000 signatures, your signatures are not scrutinized… but when the chosen one of the establishment past 15000 votes…and his campaign chairman new how many signatures he has…the new threshold was set at 15000 and everyone else’s signatures were conveniently thrown out after being heavily scrutinized.

    legality is one thing…morality is another…this was done dishonestly and it was done by the VAGOP so why shouldn’t or wouldn’t I pin this on the VAGOP?

    And I also pin a large share of this on Willard “the Rat” Romney.

    If the man had any integrity….and if he were worthy of the office he seeks, he should stand up and demand the VA GOP include those campaigns that turned in 10000 votes be allowed on the ballot.

    but of course…that would depend on whether he has any integrity and were worthy of the office he seeks…

    I guess we know the answer to that one don’t we?

  • AceInTX

    I get it that you have no problem with your by winning dishonestly…but I’m sick of being accused of whining by Romney sycophants who can’t seem to get it through their thick heads that they are going to need conservatives to defend and campaign for Romney in the general and insist on being as ofensive and condescending as possible towards them

    It’s starts with the anti Mormon bigotry mem we’ve been pounded with since 2006…and now we’re whiners when we protest the rules being changed at the last minute to help the establishment’s chosen candidate.

    Way to endear your base to the supposed inevitable standard bearer for the party.

    I swear…as much as I loathed McCain…I’m starting to believe he had ten times the class Willard “the Rat” Romney

  • AceInTX

    but it’s convenient to ignore that fact isn’t it?

  • AceInTX

    and I bet there are enough POed people who will do just that

  • Scope

    You said that Perry used out of state signature collectors, and that absolutely that was why he had so many signatures tossed. You have no idea, and either does anyone else, except those involved, what signature collectors he used. None. You are “assuming”, by reading the lawsuit that that was the case. No where in the lawsuit does it say that he in fact did use out of state collectors. As I said in my comment above, he may in fact have not had enough “valid” signatures because he was barred by law from bringing in his own collectors from out of state. I’m sure you are well aware of what the term “ASSUME” may mean. Because the lawsuit addresses signature collectors it in no way backs up your assertion. That was my point. VA law states that the signature collectors must be registered VA voters. One can be a resident of VA, but not a registered voter, and therefore not qualified to collect signatures.

    The lawsuit states that he collected 6,000 “valid” signatures, but does not mean that he did not collect the almost 12,000 signatures, before half were thrown out. Again, you have no proof that he only submitted only 6,000 signatures.

    How do you know how many of Newt’s signatures were thrown out. Again that information in not available, except to those involved in the lawsuit.

    I’m well aware of who filed the lawsuit, and who all were permitted to enjoin his lawsuit.

    You will have to ask the Perry attorney’s why they filed the lawsuit that they did. It seems by what information is available that going after the Constitutional 1st Amendment rights of candidates was not a bad choice of means to win the lawsuit, without getting into the minutia of he said, she said, and they did this and that, including the GOP changing the rules mid-stream.

    For a lawyer, you sure are doing much assuming, and reading things into the lawsuit where those “facts” do not exist to the general public at this time. Sheesh.

  • Scope

    that JSob is ignoring the fact that the rules were changed mid-stream, while that is important, it isn’t a part of the lawsuit. It is more so the statements he is making with absolutely no proof to back up those statements. He said that Perry’s signatures were thrown out because he used out of state collectors. There is absolutely no proof of that at all. Those of us not privy to the information on what collectors were used, but using that as an argument is foolish, and just assuming. Just by reading the Perry lawsuit, and the fact that the signature collectors issue is a part of the lawsuit, does not speak to who was used or not used. Absent the facts, one could also argue that because the law restricts what collectors can be used, it may have hampered Perry’s ability to bring in his own people to collect the signatures required.

    My gripe is that for someone who goes by the letter of the law, every T must be crossed, and every i dotted, there is alot of assuming and speculating going on with the arguments and charges.

  • Scope

    sent people to VA to collect signatures for their candidates they have also broken the law, and those signatures should be thrown out also. VA law states that signature collectors must be registered VA voters, and if they are from out of state, they are not lawful signature collectors, as they cannot be registered VA voters.

  • Finrod

    Of course the Romney and Paul campaigns are more together. Romney’s been running for President since 2007, Paul since 1988.

    That doesn’t change the fact (which you ignored) that the rules were changed at the last minute, in a way that heavily favored Romney.

    If we’re playing basketball and I change the rules at halftime so that if I have a 10 point lead with 10 minutes to go, the game is over– is that fair? Is that a good thing to change?

    Until you admit that the rules were changed for Romney’s benefit, whether or not Romney’s people had a direct part in it or not, you’re just blathering stupid.

  • AceInTX

    I agree whole heartedly….their votes should be scrutinized too…but they weren’t because the VA GOP lead by Romney’s chief of freaking staff…decided to set the bar below the threshold he knew darned well Romney had achieved in order to freeze out Willard “The Rat” Romney’s competition.

    and then we have the Romney weenies thumbing their nose at us and taunt us as being whiners for pointing out how crooked the deal was…

    I’m serious…As bad as I hated McCain…my loathing for him has been exceeded by Romney and his sycophants and their classless taunting.

    Come general election time…when these ass clowns want everyone pulling together…they’re going to play hell getting anyone to help pull the Romney Train!

  • AceInTX

    I do believe the VA GOP was within their rights to set the bar where they did and were legally empowered to do so….(Whether they were constitutionally allowed to do so is another matter)…..

    But legal and ethical don’t always go together….something can be perfectly legal to do….but being legal doesn’t make it ethical.

    This was a corrupt power play by Romney and people need to seit up and take notice…because if he’s willing to win dirty…he’ll be just as willing to govern dirty as well…

  • No Longer For Perry

    N/T

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    …absentee ballots have to go out around that time, so I *think* so.

  • AceInTX

    It instead indicates that there is a very strong possibility that the court may order in favor of the plaintiffs on Friday on at least one count

  • pttx333

    n

  • pttx333

    b

  • nocontest

    At this time it would have to be Romney only because I believe he has the best chance to win but as I said in my post he has to learn quickly learn from comments like fear of getting a pink slip.

    To me he doesn’t have to play it that way he could have easily said I’ve never had to worry about getting a pink slip because my family has lived the American dream.

    He doesn’t have to apologize for coming from a wealthy family. He should use this to his advantage not as a liability. Cheers

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