Wal-Mart decided to do its own generic ballot poll, so it’s no surprise that the cutesy demographic group that’s coming out of it is ‘Wal-Mart Moms.”
But if they’re real, they’re real, right? So who are they?
I have to say that reading Daily Caller’s explanation of the group, they sound like this generation’s soccer moms mugged by the recession:
“They’re conflicted,” said Republican pollster Neil Newhouse, who co-authored the study. “They like Obama, and they want more activist government. But when it gets to specifics, they disagree.”
On one hand, 60 percent of those polled said that they believe “government should do more to solve problems and help meet the needs of the people.” But specific policy proposals that require a more heavy-handed government — take the recently passed health-care overhaul, for example — find favor from only 14 percent of the group. In fact, 42 percent said that the Affordable Care Act would make things worse for them and their families.
14% support for PPACA? That’s amazing. Women are the core demographic that Democrats win year in, year out, and if the President’s centerpiece bill is turning many women to Republicans, that in itself could explain a wave year for Republicans, even if the rest might look good for Barack Obama in 2012.
Caveat: The poll was apparently conducted over the Internet, so if it was heavily self-selected, then the poll might be meaningless. But I lack the details to say for sure. I don’t get the impression it’s as worthless as, say, Zogby Interactive, though.
Moe Lane
Dan Spencer
Dan McLaughlin
Jeff Emanuel
Who are they?
4life (Diary) Thursday, June 24th at 7:14PM EDT (link)Just about every mom I know shops at Wal-mart. Where else can you get gerbil food, underwear, a new drill bit, 100 colored markers, eggs, etc….. in one store? Wal-mart has just about everything on my shopping list. And it’s cheap. What could be better? I’d bet, though, that plenty of liberals turn up their nose at Wal-Mart, especially the educated ones. But in my world I see the local wealthy wealthies and all the rest. And it sounds to me like the Obama voters polled are suffering from buyers remorse.
May I ask where you live?
stephaniet Thursday, June 24th at 10:31PM EDT (link)I do mean it politely, of course. I ask because my local Wal-Mart is horrendously expensive. The other supermarket just across the street, Meijer, used to be the big expensive meanie in this town, but when they put in the Wal-Mart… Meijer started competing. Heavily. Now some things are actually less expensive there.
Granted, I do live close to a big city. I visited a Wal-Mart four or five hours away, and everything was literally half the price that it is at my local one.
But oh, Wal-Mart, I do like you. Sometimes. When you have what I need and it’s on sale. Heyyy, like that nice ottoman I got…
“*They* say the best weapon is one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I *prefer* the weapon you only have to fire *once*. That’s how Dad did it; that’s how America does it… and it’s worked out pretty well so far.”
I used to live in Meijer Central
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 12:56AM EDT (link)in West MIchigan and even got to meet old man Fred Meijer. Meijer actually invented the “superstore” concept, but Sam Walton ran with it. Meijer was happy just to be doing well in Michigan. Then, just like Wal-Mart, his kids took it over and changed it into something the old man wouldn’t recognize.
I’ve loathed Wal-Mart ever since it proclaimed itself the official store of the Moral Majority back in the 80s. And I hate the way they treat their employees and vendors. So I haven’t shopped there in over 20 years. It IS possible to shop and save money without Wal-Mart.
You know, I find that interesting,
4life (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 7:22AM EDT (link)in my WalMart the employees seem so happy. One greeter at the door has been there for years and we chit chat a bit every time I see him. Like every big box store the exert tremendous price pressure on their vendors, I’m sure. And that is why things are cheap.
I agree!
promise Friday, June 25th at 12:32PM EDT (link)The Wal-mart in our town treat their employees like dirt. I worked for a Dr. and the patients became my friends. They told me things that made me so mad I could spit, so I determined to shop elsewhere! I found some much better “stuff” & saved alot of $$$. But there are some things that only Wal-mart’s have here! So once in a blue moon I HAVE to go there!
I've heard a lot of horror stories, too.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 12:35PM EDT (link)And I wouldn’t have believed them if I hadn’t heard them from people I know personally and trust.
Like what?
southernilpat Friday, June 25th at 10:31PM EDT (link)I only ask because I work for Walmart and would like to know what horrible, awful things I should be looking for. Apparently I’ve missed them.
Health insurance? I have a high deductible HSA compatible BCBS plan I pay the princely sum of $5 a week for. I have a HSA that they match up to $600 of any contributions I make. Instant 100% return on my money,
Retirement? I have a 401k that they put money into whether I do or not. Also, any stock I buy they add 18% to.
Opportunity for advancement? Every single person in management at our store started out as hourly. Our store manager started out as a cart pusher. Now, the individual has to actually take responsibility for their own advancement (radical thought, that) and make an effort. No one holds your hand and leads you through it, but it’s easy to find out what you need to do to get that promotion. It’s up to you to pursue it. And this is what really kills the unions: raises are based on merit. The nerve!
No. the pay isn’t great but honestly, we make about what we are worth.
Dukes v. Wal-Mart,
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 2:41AM EDT (link)the largest civil rights (gender discrimination) class-action suit in US history.
Oh, I see
southernilpat Saturday, June 26th at 9:35AM EDT (link)Since there’s a lawsuit it must be true. OK.
Or perhaps a few hundred thousand female
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 2:54PM EDT (link)Wal-Mart workers simply dreamed they were passed over for promotions, denied raises, and other discriminatory actions. Got it.
Or that a plaintiffs' attorney got twelve morons with driver's licenses
Achance (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 3:40PM EDT (link)to believe him/her. If you believe a gender discrimination suit coming out of California and decided only by the 9th Soviet so far proves anything more than you can find twelve people stupid enough to believe anything, then you’re stupid enough to be one of the 52% who inflicted Comrade Obama on this Country.
The Dukes case is a union ginned up hit on WalMart brought in the only circuit that is leftist enough to buy a disparate impact case. Like virtually all other 9th Circuit decisions, it will have a short and unhappy life before the USSC and people like you will think the USSC was rigged just like it was with Algore.
And I don’t even like WalMart because of what they’ve done to small towns, but only the rocks are forever.
In Vino Veritas
So there's no gender discrimination in California.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 6:42PM EDT (link)Whatever.
Yeah I'm skeptical
Neil Stevens (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 6:54PM EDT (link)You grievance mongers have ZERO credibility.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
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I'm not a grievance monger.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 11:58PM EDT (link)It’s unthinking to deem Wal-Mart a good business by looking only at its bottom line, just as it is unthinking to deem it evil by looking only at its bottom line.
I’ve learned enough about Wal-Mart’s business practices that I don’t think it’s a shining example of capitalism. Other retailers, like Costco and Starbucks, are plenty profitable while paying a decent wage and benefits. Nor do they include employees’ signing up for Medicare and welfare as part of their labor cost-containment strategy.
It can be done. Wal-Mart just doesn’t want to do it. Of course that’s Wal-Mart’s choice; they have that right. And it’s my choice to patronize retailers other than Wal-Mart.
Having been a business owner myself, I found absolutely no reason to be other than honest and decent to those I employed.
Wal-Mart does pay a "decent wage and benefits"
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 9:10PM EDT (link)otherwise, they wouldn’t have any employees.
People typically take the best option that is available to them. Wal-Mart is the largest private employer in the US.
Are you saying that all of those people are idiots?
Seems like people vote with their job application, and that more people voted for WM than any other employer.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
taxpayer1234 you're just ignorant.
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 9:28PM EDT (link)1. Starbucks announced last year that they were closing 300 stores and laying off about 7,000 people.
2. While Costco is profitable, they don’t and can’t have the mass market appeal of WalMart. They carry a very limited selection and don’t have the same impact in a market that WalMart does, lowering prices at all stores across the retail spectrum.
3. If you talk to WalMart employees, you’ll discover that the company is absolutely honest and decent to them. Can you find disgruntled employees at WalMart? Sure. Heck, I know some. But of course if it wasn’t for WalMart they wouldn’t have a job at all.
The personal attack really convinces me
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 10:44PM EDT (link)that you’re right on all points. NOT.
1. Last I checked, Starbucks and Costco are profitable. If they weren’t, the shareholders would have bolted.
2. Since the beginning of this year, Wal-Mart has laid off over 11,000 employees at its Sams Clubs and closing 10 Sams Club stores. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/business/25walmart.html?scp=1&sq=Wal-Mart%20Tells%20Employees%20It%20Will%20Cut%2011,200%20Jobs%20%20&st=cse. Seems Costco is a little too much competition–higher salaries and all. Go figure.
3. I do talk to Wal-Mart employees–in my college classrooms. They are either part-timers working their way through school, “eternal” part-timers who gave up trying to become full-time, or full-timers (managers included) who are sick of the job and want to learn skills for a new job. Since 1987, I’ve worked at several colleges in two different parts of the country. The stories I’ve heard are very similar. Those same “disgruntled” Wal-Mart employees who “if it wasn’t for Wal-Mart they wouldn’t have a job at all” have gone on to work in professions from engineering to nursing to network administration. Not bad for a bunch of whiny, disgruntled ignoramuses.
Oh, you're in college.
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 10:56PM EDT (link)THAT explains everything.
No, it doesn't.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:10PM EDT (link)You’re making a flying leap of an assumption, and you’ve landed on your face.
First of all, I’m not “in college”. I’m an instructor, not a student. And no, I’ve not spent my life in the ivory tower. I’ve worked in the construction, risk management, and steel industries and even owned my own business.
Second, I’ve been a conservative since Reagan’s first term and have voted conservative in every election. I teach my students how to use reason and logic to produce good writing. They have no idea my political bent because I will not abuse my position to influence them, unlike my liberal colleagues who go on daily harangues and display other symptoms of BDS.
Third, you excoriate me because I don’t fit into your convenient pigeon hole of “doesn’t like Wal-Mart = college instructor = libtard”. That I would expect from a poster at HuffPo, not here.
And by the way,
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 10:57PM EDT (link)those are called entry level jobs. And when they were in college and working for WalMart, they obviously couldn’t get another job. You jackass.
The name-calling is even more convincing
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:21PM EDT (link)of your epic rightness.
You should also bother to read my post. I’ve had students who worked for Wal-Mart both part-time as students, and full-time as managers. Last I checked, a store manager isn’t an entry-level job.
At least demonstrate some understanding of what you read before calling me names.
If your work experience is in college classrooms,
Achance (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 10:59PM EDT (link)you don’t know anything about work and most of the people you’re dealing with are the perpetually immature that this Country has come to produce. And I don’t mean that you don’t exert yourself and go home tired. What I mean is that there is exactly ZERO accountability for product or process in a college. It is the only kind of employer that makes a large public employer look efficient. Over my professional career, I went to a bazillion workshops and seminars put on by all sorts of college professors who were “teaching me a better way,” in the words of Dr. Hook and the Medicen Show. I could count on the fingers of one hand the ones who could actually do anything or had actually done anything other than sit in the back or stand in the front of a classroom. The very, absolutely, incomparably worst one I ever went to was Hahvud’s very prestigious and expensive course in Interest Based Bargaining. It’s a good thing those people were highly skilled educational professionals because there weren’t any that would have made their probationary period in my office where you actually had to do something when the guy at the head of the table said, “you may inquire” or the union really did want something and you weren’t willing to give it to them; that’s a little different from wowing college students, politicians, or the HR girls from Podunk.
In Vino Veritas
Oh, someone else who knows all about my work experience.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:18PM EDT (link)I’ve said it more than once. I have NOT spent my life in the ivory tower. I’ve worked in a variety of industries, in positions from worker bee to manager, and even owned my own business.
So don’t lecture me about accountability. I know all about budgets and billable hours and cranky clients and OSHA and the IRS.
I'm not a huge fan of WalMart
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 10:03PM EDT (link)for reasons unrelated to the EvilCorporation® diatribes that so enrapture the left and the rest of the doucheiosie. That said, unethical, and fair, wages, benefits and treatment are in the eyes of the beholder. Obviously, those working at WalMart can’t find any better source of employment, or are too young to know where to look; otherwise, they would have taken said opportunity. It’s your choice whether you shop at WalMart or not, but it’s counterproductive in a way that should be obvious to think that, if people en masse stopped patronizing WalMart, better quality jobs would plop onto their former employees’ laps just like that. Same with sweatshop labor: you make wrinkle your nose at the conditions those workers labor in, but they sure are glad to have something to support their families with.
Me? I’m glad that jobs like that exist, so that people with low human capital (addicts, retirees, etc.) can make a contribution to society while receiving something they want (cash) in return. In fact, if min. wage were abolished, I bet you’d see fewer unemployed inner city black kids, but that’s never going to happen (some unions have negotiated so that their wages are indexed to min wage in some way, it strengthens their bargaining hand indirectly, and it prices out some forms of non-union labor.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Taxpayer
conservativecrusade (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:43PM EDT (link)even if you are 100% right about Walmart, it does not matter. People in this country have the ability to take or leave a job as they wish. No one is forced to work for Walmart or any other company. Quite frankly, anyone who clocks in for another day of work at Walmart has no ground to complain. They chose again to accept the terms of their employment for another shift, so it is on them.
The reality of it all is that most, not all, of the employees that work for an hourly wage at Walmart and other such places are “stuck” in those types of jobs due to their personal choices. They chose to drop out of high school or not go to college, they chose to have a criminal record, they chose to not gain a viable skill that will allow them to make more money, etc etc etc. It is not Walmarts fault they made these decisions, nor is it Walmarts job to make them rich. If you want the benefits and the better pay, you must put the work and effort in to get it. And if the grass is greener on the Cotsco side, then let them move over there. But to me, any complaints they may have, outside of legitimate complaints concerning unlawful activities(labor laws), really have no basis in reality and have no merit!
You are right, you have the right to shop where you want to and that is a great freedom. But we have the right to shop at Walmart in order to save money.And Walmart has the right to pay what they are able to pay to people who have made poor life decisions in order to keep our business with the lowest prices.Some call that exploitation but in reality it is far from it as the people who some claim are being exploited put themselves in that position and choose to remain in that position. But you are wrong that they are not the picture of Capitalism as they employee more Americans that any other company, grow faster than any other company, and keep their customers loyal by keeping equal quality products in the store for lower prices. Perfect example if you ask me.
“The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” — Alexis de Tocqueville
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Where exactly did I say
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 3:09AM EDT (link)people are “forced” to work at Wal-Mart? Where exactly did I say it was Wal-Mart’s job to make them rich? And where exactly did I say you don’t have the right to shop at Wal-Mart to save money?
I’m arguing that there is no reason to treat employees callously. It costs nothing to treat employees like human beings. Heck, it might even save a few bucks in employee turnover. (Imagine that!)
Labor wonks and labor attorneys have published more than one study that shows treating employees decently (NOT making them rich, as you insist I’ve asserted) cuts down significantly on employee lawsuits. But as long as Wal-Mart can settle those suits with its petty cash fund, they’re not likely to change. And so I’ll continue to choose to shop elsewhere.
How can Walmart do all of the following simultaneously?
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 3:21AM EDT (link)(1) Pay people poorly
(2) Treat people poorly
(3) Avoid extremely high turnover
(4) Have low prices despite making inefficient resource allocations to settle disputes with large checks rather than a proactive pat on the back
You paint a picture of a company burning through settlement cash instead of behaving decently. Since Walmart has more employees than anyone else, it wouldn’t surprise me if they had both more complaints and more settlements.
However, if Walmart really did treat people like crap, it would have to pay higher wages on average to avoid losing people to other retailers. Similarly, if Walmart really does pay people like crap, it would need to treat them very well to make up the difference or people would leave. There is too much mobility at the level of people making $8-$10/hour for Walmart to have such a captive pool of labor.
There is simply no way that the largest employer in the US could get away with below average compensation and below average treatment on a sustained basis while cutting prices and blowing all the cash on settlements.
Your logic does kind of presuppose that Walmart employees are either forced to stay in low-pay/low-satisfaction jobs, that they are simply too dumb to know better, or that they are so screwed by economic conditions that they are thoroughly defeated by it all and don’t have the energy to act in their own self interest.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
So basically, your position is that employees are "forced" to work at Walmart
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 11:56AM EDT (link)nt
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Sure there is; the entertainment industry is full of it,
Achance (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 8:13PM EDT (link)so is government. But, since they’re both run by Democrats and Democrats are definitionally good people, there can’t really be discrimination, just misunderstandings and stained dresses.
In Vino Veritas
Probably
Neil Stevens (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 6:51PM EDT (link)You know how radical feminists just invent excuses to b—h.
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Yes, I too once ventured to that pink cadillac trunk for lower prices - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 9:47AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Official store of the moral majority?
Brian Hibbert (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 8:37AM EDT (link)I must have missed that…. but why would that be a problem for you?
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In the mid-80s,
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 10:59PM EDT (link)Wal-Mart decided not to sell Penthouse Magazine and similar mags. This was from pressure by Jerry Falwell’s “Moral Majority”, which was trying to regulate pornography and even got Reagan to convene a commission ( the Meese Commission) to attempt removing boobies and buns from the sight of tender eyes. Thank goodness it was an epic failure.
I actually appreciate this as I didn't have to veto most
Brian Hibbert (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 11:27AM EDT (link)of the purchases my children made at Walmart. This was really helpful in the music department which only sold the “radio” versions of songs. If I WANT to buy Penthouse, there are other places I can go to get one.
Walmart made a marketing decision to be a wholesome retailer. I see no problem with it.
Candidate for Trustee of Illinois Central College
Socialism doesn’t work. It looks nice on paper, but it’s been tried and it’s failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.
Take back our party!
Check out Unified Patriots
I forgot to mention that Wal-Mart
4life (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 7:17AM EDT (link)is the only ‘super-store’ option in my town. We don’t have a Meijer or a SuperTarget. The prices are cheaper than the grocery stores and Target for most things.
I will never buy eggs at Wal-mart
m_quick Thursday, June 24th at 11:16PM EDT (link)I have yet to find a carton with unbroken eggs or not covered in yolk.
Everything else? Yeah, Wal-mart is great. But for eggs I go to Harris Teeter.
Me too..
smitch61 Thursday, June 24th at 9:24PM EDT (link)I am in Michigan and Wal-mart has been a god send to quite a few of us.
Wal-Mart moms, grandmothers, and non generic shoppers are the spouse’s and family members of the laid off worker in Michigan. The same laid off worker that was unemployed at the beginning of the health care debate and 10 months 2 votes later the same unemployed worker still seeking work. Which is why they should have concentrated on the economy first…
Stephanie....
smitch61 Thursday, June 24th at 10:35PM EDT (link)Do live in Michigan too? you mentioned Meijer. Meijer is cheaper on quite a few items including groceries, but I think the store is limited in location. I believe Michigan and Ohio only, or maybe I am wrong?
Very close!
stephaniet Thursday, June 24th at 10:39PM EDT (link)Indiana, in fact. I think Meijer was founded in Michigan, right? I’m not a native Hoosier… came from Louisiana originally. The best thing about Meijer is their sales. When they have sales, *wow* they have sales. $80 piece of equipment for $14, stuff like that.
It’s also cleaner than the Wal-Mart directly across the street. Wally World, pleeeease take notice…
“*They* say the best weapon is one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I *prefer* the weapon you only have to fire *once*. That’s how Dad did it; that’s how America does it… and it’s worked out pretty well so far.”
Also in Illinois nt
wolfster38 (Diary) Thursday, June 24th at 10:40PM EDT (link)“A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.”
The Declaration of Independence
Meijers are THE BEST
JSobieski (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 11:09AM EDT (link)Anyone traveling to Michigan (where the company is headquartered and most prominent) should definitely visit one. Meijers was the first of its kind—a store that allows you to buy oil, office supplies, camping equipment, groceries, and prescriptions under the same roof.
I hate shopping, so I love Meijers.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Beast
brezley67 Thursday, June 24th at 11:21PM EDT (link)I haven’t fed the beast for 7 yrs. Don’t miss it a bit.
The beast?
Neil Stevens (Diary) Thursday, June 24th at 11:44PM EDT (link)Oh yeah, it’s so beastly to be efficient and get people stuff at good prices.
I guess we should all wait in lines and pay a fortune like they did in the USSR.
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Neil, I think that this guy is either a tribble,troll or kossick
Richard Mullins (Diary) Thursday, June 24th at 11:55PM EDT (link)I don’t that this person is in his or her right mind. Wal-mart here in the Houston area is one of many that sell groceries. The Wal-Mart that’s close to me is bigger than the H-E-B but that’s because of its one of the older Pantry store concepts. If H-E-B ever got in the California market, most of the other chains out of business. Wal-Mart and H-E-B have stayed efficient over the years.
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Joe Biden is like a Decrepit Park owner with a Meth lab that happens to not only be a dealer but a user.
Let’s Bankrupt the Democratic paty. Make spend all the money to defend thier candidates.
Yeh I am wondering about that comment too.
jeffreywturner (Diary) Thursday, June 24th at 11:59PM EDT (link)I hope this isn’t one of those folks who thinks they are striking a blow for justice by shopping at Target, or one of those other stores that does the same thing Wal-Mart does, just not as well.
“Life is too short, can’t we all just eat pork and kill some terrorists?”
Depends how you do it.
liandro (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 2:42AM EDT (link)You just mean "that particular" beast right?
jeffreywturner (Diary) Thursday, June 24th at 11:52PM EDT (link)You just feed a smaller beast instead right? Or are you one of those “off the grid” folks who grows all their own food and makes all their own clothes, etc?
“Life is too short, can’t we all just eat pork and kill some terrorists?”
Something like that,
brezley67 Friday, June 25th at 8:53AM EDT (link)but I didn’t build my own computer..
Why do you dislike walmart ?
Joliphant (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 12:35AM EDT (link)When you say you haven’t fed the beast for 7 years, does that mean you shopped there prior to 2003, and if so what exactly caused you to break with them ? Especially since its something you seem to need to mark on your calendar ?
I can completely understand hating a business. I have no love of certain telecommunications providers, but it isn’t because they had good customer service or provided competitively priced services..
“Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.”
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
I think I'm closing in on a decade.
liandro (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 2:42AM EDT (link)Not sure on the exact date I last shopped at a Wal-mart. It wasn’t hard in the slightest until I left Michigan and Meijer behind. My little town in IL got a Wal-Mart and like clockwork other things started going out of business, so I actually have to spend more now to avoid them. Ah, Meijer…
Spend More to Avoid Wal-Mart
edintexas Friday, June 25th at 8:25AM EDT (link)That sounds somewhat like the legal term “statement against interest”, though in your case it appears to be an action against your best financial interest.
Certainly your right to detest Wally World and spend more of what I presume to be your hard earned money solely in order to avoid buying at that store. It’s just not exactly indicative of great fiscal decision making (unless you own stock in the other store[s]).
Value means much more than price. nt
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 12:37PM EDT (link)Agreed, in so many ways.
liandro (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 4:50PM EDT (link)People spend more to do things they prefer.
liandro (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 4:50PM EDT (link)For a long time I wouldn’t use Comcast because of how they treated me when I was on my first deployment, even though they were the cheaper option. They had (and probably still have?) a very bad reputation in MI for stuff like that. I’ll also pay more to get a burger at Red Robin instead of McDonald’s, which I almost never eat at.
I also have a lot of ethical issues with the way Wal-Mart has treated employees and minorities, the way they have manipulated governments to get a leg up on competitors, and the way they have treated companies they purchase from (owners of which I know personally). I don’t like the dynamics Wal-Mart brings into a town when they move in, or the local businesses that close down when they do. I don’t like the way money is funneled away from my local community, and I don’t like their quality at times.
I’m also not a fan of dependency, whether it’s on government, megacorps, or anything else. Wal-Mart creates such dependency because it is in their self-interest, especially in small towns like mine (15,000 ppl). Thus I naturally tend to shy away from something like Wal-Mart to favor local businesses and entrepreneurs. Given that I am a local business owner myself, it is also a bit of common sense (even though I own a restaurant, which isn’t directly related).
You needn’t give me the tilting at windmills speech. For starters, I know enough people around here feel similarly enough that it makes a positive impact on local businessman, so I don’t buy that argument at all. Second, I live my life based on my own principles and preferences. My purpose isn’t to bring down Wal-Mart or even change them for the better–my purpose is to live a life I’m proud of, even in small things like who I choose to buy from. I can’t search out every company, but neither can I ignore the obvious.
To summarize: what is in my best financial interest is not necessarily the same as what is in my best overall interest. Just like what is in my best safety interests is not always in my best overall interest. And so forth.
Eloquently stated.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 8:19PM EDT (link)It really doesn’t matter whether a company employes millions or tens; if it deals under-handedly with its customers, employees, or vendors, it’s not a company that is interested in REAL competition or capitalism.
Underhanded is different than being a tough negotiator
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 3:29AM EDT (link)How is Walmart underhanded to its customers? It’s vendors?
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
On vendors...
liandro (Diary) Tuesday, June 29th at 3:07AM EDT (link)…one method they had was to choose mid-size suppliers, place enough orders that they were consuming virtually all of that supplier’s capacity, and then (as that vendor’s close-to-sole customer) holding them hostage. That’s a big hit when you don’t see it coming, and it takes a long time to re-tool your business away from a major buyer like that. And you’re going to get out-lawyered if it comes to that, so not really an option.
Smart? Of course. Legal? Without a doubt. Ethical? Perhaps, but I would argue that intentionally ambushing your suppliers like that is a bit sketchy. A raw power play. Maybe the the supplier had it coming. Everybody has their own standards when judging stuff like that.
The owners I knew weaned themselves away from Wal-Mart until they could close off the account. I don’t know them much anymore, and I know that their stuff was popping up again in Sam’s Club, so I don’t know what happened since. That was a decade ago, and I really haven’t paid much attention to Wal-Mart (or that supplier) since that time.
Little stuff like that, if it builds up, irks me. I just added it to the heap of issues I had with the company. Some people don’t care. I imagine some people are actually impressed by such tactics. Fair enough. It’s just not for me.
Fair enough. Let me assure you that there are many entire INDUSTRIES that behave in similar ways.
JSobieski (Diary) Tuesday, June 29th at 8:56AM EDT (link)Are you also down with how the Hollywood studios conduct themselves? What about the music business?
The application of leverage is definitely a tricky thing. Clearly, some uses of leverage are OK and others are not. There is a continuum
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Oh please
Neil Stevens (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 6:57PM EDT (link)WALMART IS RACIST
Yeah, keep on spreading the AFL-CIO, Change to Win line. You do that.
It’s so sad when Republicans let themselves become the dupes of the grievance mongers and the unions.
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Out of all the points I listed
liandro (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 2:35AM EDT (link)all you can see is racism, which is a word I didn’t use but which you felt free to put in big, bold letters. I have no idea why you react so, but if that is what you want to reduce my comment to you are doing me–and any serious discussion of Wal-Mart and megacorps–a disservice.
As for being a dupe, it is just as easy to be a dupe for corporations as it is to be for unions. Actually, for a republican it’s probably far easier to be a corporate dupe, if only because we don’t naturally ally with unions. I choose to be neither, which is part of why I work for myself.
Anyway, so you think Wall-Mart treated all employees with equality throughout its existence–maybe it did. Maybe my judgement call on that issue is wrong, and/or whatever evidence and testimony exists is all from grievance mongers and unions. I could pull that point out of my thinking on Wal-Mart and I still wouldn’tt shop there, for all the reasons I already mentioned.
I’m not sure why you care so much that people choose not to shop at Wal-Mart, or why you choose to mock/scorn them for it. As for me, I didn’t start out to boycott Wal-Mart. I just stopped going there, at first mostly due to convenience and because the one near me at the time was complete crap. I actually LOVED the place when I was a kid–looked forward to their mailers and everything. Scanned the video game sales, lusted for the new systems my family could never afford. Later in life I started paying attention to the world around me. Thus, I started seeing the articles; I started seeing the Wal-Mart effect on communities. That was about the same time I started my slow but steady movement towards buying local and supporting entrepreneurs. I made it a goal to become a business owner myself, too, somewhere in there. Eventually I did deeper research, made my conclusions, and here I am. It is more a reflection of who I am, with a dash of moral outrage. You say the moral outrage is not warranted? I disagree, but even without it I am still a person who would naturally shy away from Wal-Mart.
I could go into more details about how Wal-Mart gets out of taxes that my little business has to pay, or how the county rigged the system for them against local competitors. I could emphasize how much spending local puts money back into the town’s economy, or how people who might have been entrepreneurs are trading that dream to pay the bills and feed the corporate “beast”, as one poster above called it. They know there is no market for what they want to do. I could call for a discussion of how Illinois shortchanges small business to placate big business–especially the kind with deep wallets. I could ask whether that has helped stagnate IL’s ecnomy. I get the sense that serious discussion isn’t the interest here, though,..not for this particular issue.
You can mock me and others, but I’m proud of my position If this discussion interests you, great. If it contintues to bother you, fine. Then we move on to the plethora of issues we agree on. Lord knows there are plenty of issues across this site that fit that description, and he also knows I’m not budging on this one if the only point raised against me are charges of being a race-baiting dupe by person, and a charge that I lack fiscal sense by another. Color me unimpressed so far.
Re: Wal-Mart
zroxx (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 2:44PM EDT (link)My advice is look at this as objectively as possible, and prioritize the exercise of capitalism and justice above political ideology and subjective personal opinion when examining the actions of any corporation.
Example: “…how Wal-Mart gets out of taxes that my little business has to pay, or how the county rigged the system for them against local competitors
As a publicly traded company the capitalist (and reasonable) expectation is that Wal-Mart will avail itself of all possible competitive advantages. What you describe in this example can be read two ways, you chose a characterization that portrays Wal-Mart in a negative light (“getting out of something”), the other way to look at it is that Wal-Mart is fairly “playing by the rules”. The root problem is poor governance (rule-making), but as long as Wal-Mart isn’t breaking any laws, then there is no objective or rational basis on which to say they’re acting unjustly. I’d much prefer to see excellent and disciplined governance that does not engage in the kind of thing you’re alleging to have happened, but I’m not going to hold a grudge against a company that takes (legal) advantage of the situation and I don’t think you should either.
Now, we can separate out the preceding criticism of what I see as an example of your irrational reaction to Wal-Mart from what I see as your very rational actions. I also tend to patronize small businesses as much as I can, and will indeed pay more on occasion for the material purchase – but I’m actually getting something else for my money that makes the value of the transaction just as good and sometimes better had I gotten the item cheaper at a big box retailer. I’m getting insight into another small business – I’m seeing what they’re up to, how their establishment is run, what kind of marketing they’re doing. I’m meeting a business owner and learning a little more about what their goals are and how they’re managing their enterprise. You get to see examples of good service and bad service, over time you get to see successful operations stay around and unsuccessful ones vanish. Sometimes you make a valuable connection, which would be far less likely if I limited my shopping to big box.
To conclude, yes, some reactions to your statements fail to account for the value – less tangible but still measurable – you or I may get from actions that appear “against [our] best financial interest”. But you could benefit, IMO, from taking a step back and looking at the big picture when judging the value of any corporation and insinuating that they are unethical or immoral.
I mostly agree.
liandro (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 6:54PM EDT (link)I DO expect Wal-Mart to only care about their bottom line, but I reserve the right to take my business elsewhere if I find that leads them to actions contrary to what I wish to further.
“The root problem is poor governance (rule-making)…”
I agree completely. IL is known for this. My county board is especially problematic.
“…as long as Wal-Mart isn’t breaking any laws, then there is
no objective or rational basis on which to say they’re acting
unjustly.”
Here is where I disagree. If someone is freeloading on welfare, or rigging their IL pension in their final years of public service (a problem here), they are “playing by the rules”. But I think most conservatives, and certainly this includes me, would lose some amount of respect for them, and not just for the system they are gaming. Sure, we would attack the system, but that doesn’t mean those individuals are acting fairly or “justly” by their fellow citizens. I think it is a double standard for businesses, especially megacorps. I understand the dynamics are somewhat different, but the principle remains the same. Using government action to get a leg up on competitors, employees, or consumers will, quite often, get me looking elsewhere to shop.
“I’d much prefer to see excellent and disciplined
governance that does not engage in the kind of thing
you’re alleging to have happened, but I’m not going to
hold a grudge against a company that takes (legal)
advantage of the situation and I don’t think you should
either.”
I agree, except that what you call a grudge, I call taking my business elsewhere. My Wal-Mart doesn’t help pay for the city roads I drive, or any number of things like that. So I reserve the right to shop where my purchases are also an investment in my community.
“Sometimes you make a valuable connection…”
Agreed, and I made no attempt to hid the fact that, as a local business owner, it is worth my while to push shopping local. For me, buying local and promoting local brands comes back around when other local businessmen do the same for me. This month a local factory I work with came and ordered four figures worth of gift cards to give away with that period’s paychecks. Another local company orders weekly catering for meetings. Wal-Mart doesn’t even know I exist.
“But you could benefit, IMO, from taking a step back and
looking at the big picture when judging the value of any
corporation and insinuating that they are unethical or
immoral.”
This is where we get to a pure judgment call. I did step back, at one time, and look at the big picture. At that time, I made a judgment call that Wal-Mart had crossed ethical lines that were important to me…and I did not give them a pass just because they were a business and not a person. Could I have been wrong? Yes. Could the evidence have been rigged? It’s possible. Was I right at the time, but no longer? Again, could be possible. I’m not trying to make converts (except, maybe, to promote the concept of shopping local when convenient). I was just explaining, upon being questioned, why a conservative might take issue with Wal-Mart. I think too many big biz get passes where we would not give one to individuals or to governments, and I am not comfortable with that.
I do appreciate, though, your respectful presentation. And I do freely admit my bias and the fact that such a long-help position might no longer be valid, at least in terms of their ethics. Do to all the other factors that come into play, I still would not not be very interested in them. Even if they have changed (or if my current position was unfounded), it is just not in my interest (or, I feel, my community) to make them my first stop. My favorite pizza place pays under the table, and I still shop there…so I won’t claim any absolute moral authority on all things related to business ethics. I AM annoyed businesses like mine have to pick up the slack for businesses like theirs, though…
"Walmart is racist"?
myron_j_poltroonian Sunday, June 27th at 3:33AM EDT (link)Well, I can’t speak to where you got your information, but here in “Californeeya”, at least near Sacramento, there’s a whole bunch of employees of different ethnicities working at the one in West Sacramento. Now, a few years ago I used to do what is known as “Drop & Hook” (taking in a loaded trailer and picking up an empty one, etc.) for Penske whose customer was Target. Trust me, at O’Dark Early, English was not the language of choice and no green cards present for most of the workers tasked with unloading and distributing the merchandise on the shelves. Doubt me? Get your lazy “Alpha” up sometime in the wee hours yourself and just listen through the loading dock doors. I was actually inside, saw and asked what was going on. It’s a big, open secret here. They take political correctness and rub our faces in it. Oh, yes. If you think I’m some sort of a “Racist Gringo”, I work for the Cervantes Family trucking business; and have now, off and on, since 1989.
He didn't mean that.
liandro (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 4:35AM EDT (link)He was referring to my comment, with the intention of boiling it down to me calling Wal-Mart racist. Which is not at all what it boils down to, so it IS a bit confusing.
As for hiring illegal aliens…yeah, happens a lot. Cheap, easily manageable, easy to dump as necessary. Some of the same reasons smaller businesses hire/pay under the table, actually. I heard of one local construction guy who liked felons. They, too, are easily controlled, and they tend to have very little recourse. I’m assuming he shied away from the violent ones? I’m getting a little off-topic, though. =o
I was being sarcastic on that line (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 3:37AM EDT (link)RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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My two cents...
merryj1 Thursday, June 24th at 11:46PM EDT (link)In Michigan (Waterford, near Pontiac), the Meijer’s I shopped at was great for most stuff – some few things I’d stop at Kroger’s for. There is a Meijer’s some distance from me in Illinois, but too far to be worthwhile — and, there are two or three Ultra stores (Strat & Van Till or something close, HQ in Indiana) closer to me than the Meijer’s – Ultra is great for both price and quality (bag your own groceries).
On Wal-Mart (according to news reports on WLS-am radio), several Chicago alderman are trying to get the city to OK new store openings — it will create employment for 10,000 to 12,000, where unemployment is (like everywhere else) of nightmare proportions. The big holdup? UNIONS are demanding that the city demand $11 per hour minimum (or the aldermen supporting the OK will pay at the polls) – Wal-Mart has promised $8.75 ($8.25 is minimum wage). The clinker? The $8.75 Wal-Mart has offered is about the same as (in some cases, more than) other similar stores, even in the suburban areas outside of Chicago. The unions, of course, do not want Wal-Mart to open no matter how many people need jobs, because they are still fighting forced unionization.
Efficiency..WalMarts success is simple
OccamsRazor (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 12:21AM EDT (link)They automated early with the right equations. When an item was well purchased, they made sure it was replaced before the well sold item was barren from the shelf, fractions of a penny. The combinatorics of logistics, and it’s understanding was also an important addition as well as it’s original total quality management philosophy. Maintaining a top spot in anything is difficult, when you’re number one, one must be creative-Walmart has been. The left is PO because of the little eddies of unfairness and most definately have an issue with the history of Walmarts unions, or lack thereof. They went global and they have become the number one grocery selling store in the US-everyone needs to eat (that’s what businesses refer to as recurring revenue
). I can certainly envision them as the world’s first grocery store-tip o the hat to ‘em. Tip ‘o the hat to the consumer.
Another Demographic
Teapartier (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 1:29AM EDT (link)Next up: Home Depot Dads
Sincerly,
Teapartier
“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds”-Sam Adams
I would love to see the actual questions
southernilpat Sunday, June 27th at 7:04PM EDT (link)Not too many Obamatons or big government people come through my line, if you don’t count the guy who apparently hasn’t figured out that Bush hasn’t been POTUS for quite a while (He was laid off six months ago and it was ALL BUSH’S FAULT!) “Meeting the needs of the people” is open to a lot of interpretation, and apparently specific big government programs like Obamacare weren’t too popular.
A Poll I'd like to see......
Teapartier (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 1:34AM EDT (link)The sample group would consist of people who can be found at Wal-Mart between the hours of 2am-5am.
It should also be recorded.
Sincerly,
Teapartier
“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds”-Sam Adams
I gave up on Walmart last year . . .
evergreen78 Friday, June 25th at 4:58AM EDT (link)When they sent the letter to the President on the same letterhead with SEIU & the Center for American Progress — yet another story we never hear about any more on the “news.” I wrote a letter to the HQ in Bentonville & told them that Walmart had been my favorite store for 30 years, but I wouldn’t be shopping there any more, & I don’t. It’s been a life-changing experience for me, too. I am one of those people who would be there in the wee hours because I work evenings/nights & sleep during the day. I even sent back the $5 gift card that they sent me at Christmas. I said, “Don’t you know who the SEIU & the Center for American Progress ARE?!!!” I may be the only person in America who’s boycotting Walmart, but hey . . . We do what we can, eh?
No, you're not the only one.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 11:27AM EDT (link)I’ve not shopped there in over 20 years.
Grocery shopping at Wal Mart saves nearly $100
mwmom Friday, June 25th at 8:24AM EDT (link)per trip! So I go there. How could I not? I live in the west surburbs of St. Louis and we have fabulous grocery stores like Dierbergs and Schnucks. However, I have three kids and I shopt usually 2 – 3 times a month so I buy a lot at one time. I’ve noticed that shopping at the bargain places like Shop n Save (where you bag your own groceries) or Wal Mart Super Center saves me $75 – $100 each trip. Plus I can also buy socks, birthday presents for kids, etc.
And, the employees are great at my store. The greeters are so friendly, and they employ many people with special needs who always make my day. I loathed Wal Mart before they added the grocery section a few years ago … only shopped at Target, but now I’m at Wal Mart more than anywhere else.
Husbands' lament: the savings despite an empty wallet but I guess
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 10:25AM EDT (link)if you buy enough of anything. kidding
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I don't suppose they asked the question
Steph C (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 8:59AM EDT (link)because doing something means more power to the government and has no other meaning in politics.
Rolling back is doing something.
If you’re stuck in the mud, sometimes you have to go back and forth before you’re out of it.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
My family does Wal-Mart for everything except groceries:
yoyo (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 9:14AM EDT (link)We have found that, with a little coupon clipping, we spend less at Bi-Lo and Publix (we live in SC), and plus Bi-Lo double coupons up to $0.60 and they have the Fuel-Perks Program (where you get $0.05 off per gallon for every $50 you spend – and it is cumulative! – at Speedway. The $50 is PRE-COUPON and the last tank I put in the Mini-Van was at $1.18 per gallon! I have not seen gas prices like that since I was in High School.)
BUT, Wal-mart kicks but on everything else. Stomps Target, Lowes, Home Depot, Jiffy-Lube, Firestone, Auto Zone, Best Buy, Dick’s Sporting Goods, Toys-R-Us, Babies-R-Us, PetSmart, and Bed, Bath & Beyond.
Nemo me impune lacesset
“No one will provoke me with impunity!”
=============================
Pukin’ Dogs – The Fighting 143
Sans Reproache
=============================
The ‘yoyo’ replaced my cigarettes January 22, 2006….
My Wal-Mart just added significant groceries
renny (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 9:40AM EDT (link)I am in New Jersey and my town has had a “small” Wal-Mart for some years, and the business wanted to expand and build a super Wal-Mart that would have included a huge supermarket, but the pine snake and EPA problems blocked developing the land it wanted.
So, just within a month or so, Wal-Mart gutted one part of the store and added significant freezer space for frozen foods. It still does not offer produce.
I shop there off and on because it is several miles from me, but the cost benefits can be significant. A dollar or more difference on a bottle of aspirin and two dollars and more on cleaning products and 30-40% on small appliances and electronics, esp. with “price cutter” sales. I bought a near $100 vacuum cleaner (sold at Target) at a non-sale price of $42.
My Wal-Mart isn’t full of moms, but seniors, as this area has huge retirement developments. And, most of the staff are retirees, also.
Anyone who wouldn’t take advantage of Wal-Mart’s savings is simply wasting money. My association (NEA) is opposed to it because the store isn’t unionized, but neither is Target or Macy’s or any other retail establishment that I know of.
But I hear you can get old snake skin real cheap at the old property - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 10:15AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Mom of three and I refuse to shop there
panthera (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 10:00AM EDT (link)I’ve never had good service there and the lines are always horrific. There are always 200 shopping carts in the parking lot and when its windy its like a battle ground!! When I did shop there, I didnt save much money so I’d rather shop where I get good service and less frustration.
Government does not solve problems; it subsidizes them.
Only on vacations will I shop at WalMart...
acat (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 10:24AM EDT (link)Like you, I haven’t seen the savings that I can find by searching a little. I can see the appeal – everything in one stop – for the over-committed mommy – but it just never works out that way for me.
When I’m on vacation, though, and I don’t know where the little places that have what I need at a good price are, WalMart is at least consistently .. tolerable.
Mew
——
Caveat Suffragator
Roosters are better packers than cats - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 10:16AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
As Heard In The 2008 Presidential Campaign
wolfgang Friday, June 25th at 10:56AM EDT (link)“He’s going to pay for my groceries!”
Question:”Where’s he going to get the money?”
“From his stash!”
Typical WalMart mom. There was a reason the Founders restricted the right to vote to the real property holders, the ones with the most at stake, the ones with the most to lose.
Anything else was a return to the rule of the Roman Mob in the Coloseum: “Crucify Him! Crucify Him!”
The founding states had varied voting laws
Neil Stevens (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 6:59PM EDT (link)Not all were so… oligarchial.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
In fact...
Neil Stevens (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 7:00PM EDT (link)If we weighted voting by wealth, then the left-leaning Gates, Buffets, and Soroses of America would drown out the rest of us.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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So what I gather from this report is...
Justin Spagnolo (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 11:23AM EDT (link)“Walmart Moms” are completely politically and economically uninformed… when dealing with national politics and economics…
Clearly 60% think government is capable of solving problems and taking care of their needs…
Yet even the uninformed are capable of detecting the inefficiency of mandates for insurance policies…
If anything one thing can be said about Walmart Moms… They’re spendthrifts and love a great coupon, even if it comes from the government.
“Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. “ -James Madison
Even simpler:
aesthete (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 12:03AM EDT (link)When they’re paying attention, and it’s an issue that they know something about (who among us hasn’t had to deal with the healthcare system?), they see the benefits in freedom. When they’re not paying attention, they’re glad that government’s punished that villainous corp owner, or that it’s spending on a “quality education” for their kids.
IOW, they’re just like the rest of the population.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Just a bad survey...
zroxx (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 1:47PM EDT (link)You’re close I think, but people are extrapolating things about the respondents that don’t follow from the question that was asked. Hey, *I* think the government should do more to solve problems – but with the caveat that they should only solve those problems associated with the duties given by the Constitution, narrowly focused – justice, national security, and so on. You don’t get the opportunity to measure such a position with the question that was asked.
The better question would have been: “do you believe the government should tax you more so it can do more to solve problems and help meet the needs of the people”. That would have resulted in a predictable landslide.
Like I said
Neil Stevens (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 7:01PM EDT (link)These are the types who fell for Clinton, and now this generation is falling out with socialism in practice.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
I would agree with that.
liandro (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 2:43AM EDT (link)I’m guessing most of them don’t have the time and/or inclination to follow politics closely, so they are largely a product of whatever the media is telling them. Add in a big dash of natural self-interest, mix with their political upbriging (if any), and serve alongside a recession.
Secondhand stores
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 11:39AM EDT (link)aren’t efficient, but the bargains are great, especially for clothes. And many times, you can find much higher-quality stuff than sold at Wal-Mart. For example, I have a pair of Italian wool designer slacks that cost a whole $3. I’ve purchased beautifully-tailored suits for $20. And I’ve clothed my kid with many secondhand-store items. In the secondhand stores I’ve shopped, the money goes back to the community, which is an extra bonus in my book. My shopping has helped the local PTO, Humane Society, Salvation Army, Goodwill/ARC, and others.
What about their prescrition drugs??
gracie (Diary) Friday, June 25th at 1:04PM EDT (link)Walmart has RX drugs $4 one mo, $10 three months for anyone!. It’s like a public service!! To me they are helping to solve the RX problem in the market all by themselves. If they do put in emergent care centers that would be a great help too considering recent huge increases in medical insurance.
Not to mention it’s hands down the cheapest place to buy gasoline.
I save enough money to landscape my yard and other luxuries. I do buy meat at HEB.
The employees in Texas seem very happy. I see all kinds of cars in the lot. I did not know about the SEIU, so Can understand that issue. But I cannot save a dime at Target; in this recession have to save where you can.
5555555555 - just echoed you below - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 10:01AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Since Wal-Mart has surpassed GM as the largest private employer
renny (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 9:55AM EDT (link)I would think Redstate would have more positive comments.
But you can throw your money away wherever you want.
My positive comments about Wal-Mart have nothing to do with their size
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, June 26th at 10:00AM EDT (link)Wal-Mart’s low prices have been better for the quality of life of low income Americans than any government program in history.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
True.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 12:04AM EDT (link)But their employees who are on Medicaid because they can’t afford Wal-Mart’s health insurance–I wonder what they’d say…
Are you aware
southernilpat Sunday, June 27th at 11:29AM EDT (link)That a family of four can have an income of over $44,000 a year and still qualify for medical assistance? Or are you claiming that Costco and Starbucks pay that much?
I don’t get all the Walmart hatred.
So, 12 or 20 hour/week p/t employees should have full benefits?
Achance (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:51AM EDT (link)A lot of people take those part time jobs just to get out of the house or to provide supplemental income. A lot of retirees work at WalMart as p/t employees. Like any good lie, this Medicare/Medicaid meme has some truth to it; first almost every retiree healthcare plan will make an active employee healthcare the primary carrier, so if WM offered HI to a part time employee, WM’s HI would carry the greater burden; second, most HI plans require the participant to enroll in Medicare when eligible and that makes Medicare the primary; and finally, lots of job training and welfare to work programs try to place people in p/t jobs at WM and lots of other retailers and these people usually retain their welfare/Medicaid eligibility.
You haven’t had a single informed thought on this thread; you’re merely a reciter of union/Democrat talking points. You’d probably be a lot happier with the other mind-numbed lefty robots on HuffPo or Kos instead of trolling here.
In Vino Veritas
I think the union goal is to make 12-20 work weeks standard
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:57AM EDT (link)coupled with a retirement age of 45.
Seriously, if liberals think that things like minimum wage can be subject to political fiat, why would they limit their aims to mere wages.
Quality of life, vacation time, time for hobbies, etc. all need to be enhanced. Besides, if we cut the work week in half, unemployment would be eliminated and everyone would be better off.
/sarcasm off.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
It should be reduced
Menlo (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 4:31PM EDT (link)I think people are working too many hours and too many days, but it’s a far worse problem among salaried professionals than hourly wage earners. 30-35 hours would be more reasonable for a standard.
Where possible, I do think employers should be required to offer the choice of a reduced schedule, especially to professional salaried employees. Naturally, it should come with proportionately reduced pay and benefits.
The Netherlands has managed to keep its unemployment lower than a lot of other places by instituting just such a policy. The average workweek there is the lowest in the developed world, though I’m not sure how much if any that policy in particular contributes. The Dutch also have a mandatory four weeks’ vacation a year.
The Samoans are quite content to work 30 hours, and the Bushmen of Africa work about 2 days a week.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
I averaged 50-60 hours/wk. for most of my career,
Achance (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 4:58PM EDT (link)sometimes a good bit more; high-profile hearing, intense contract negotiations and such meant you really didn’t have a life, and usually that schedule included being away from home as well. Government is a 90 – 10 operation in which ten percent of the people do ninety percent of the work at the salaried professional level. If there are budget cuts, the hourly delivery of service employees that you have to pay overtime get laid off or the OT rationed and you get to do their work too. On paper I had what looked to be a very generous leave/vacation package, but you didn’t dare take the time off. First, none of your work would get done while you were gone, so it would all be right there waiting for you in addition to all your new work. Second, once you got to a fairly high level, say within a level or two of an appointee, you couldn’t give people that much time to plot against you undisturbed. Ours had cash value so everybody just used it as a savings account.
The federal district court referred to MicroSoft’s non-OT eligible programmers and such as “microserfs.” The Godawful hours are just the expectation for salaried people while the employer pinches pennies on the hourly pay. I’m sure it has only gotten worse in the Lower 48 with the recession. The Fair Labor Standards Act is a 1938 law that really doesn’t reflect either the modern workplace or the modern culture, but you can’t rationally amend it because of the unions and the plaintiffs’ bar. There are big law firms that do nothing but overtime suits, have websites soliciting complaints, etc. The real inequities are at the supervisory level just above the hourly employees. That is usually a person promoted out of the unit, so they get little more pay at the hourly rate, lose their overtime eligibilty, which really cuts their take home pay, and then get worked Godawful hours.
Only when I got to the appointee level, and really only at the end of that did I get very comfortable with just working the office hours and letting somebody else live in airplanes, hotels, and hearing rooms.
In Vino Veritas
I often wonder
Menlo (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 6:36PM EDT (link)I think many Americans would prefer higher pay and/or job satisfaction to a reduced work schedule. I’d take the latter every time. That’s one reason I would never seek, work towards, or accept any type of management position.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
I had a pretty reasonable balance late in my career,
Achance (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 6:47PM EDT (link)maybe tilted towards the reduced work schedule. Once the IT people had the capability to forward my office phone to my cell phone, I was free! I could be kicked back on the flybridge with an adult beverage in my hand and with lines in the water and answer that call from somebody who thought s/he was more important than me. I just gravitated to the management positions because it is better to do than to be done unto. There was a lot of intrigue but it was mostly the intrigue of the eunuchs in the harem and nothing to much worry about. The higher up I got the less there was actually and much less of people trying to put you on a hit list. It is kinda like owing money; if you can’t make the payments on your $100K loan, you’re a deadbeat who the bank will drive to bankruptcy, but if you can’t make the payments on your $100MM loan, you’re the bank’s partner and they have to work with you. Same with power in government; if you don’t have much, people will use their power against you, but once you have a lot, they worry too much about you using yours against them to mess with you much.
In Vino Veritas
As self-employed person, I often suggest that disastified people create their own job
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 7:22PM EDT (link)and feel free to take all the time off that you want.
Freedom means taking responsibility for your life, and that means recognizing that free time isn’t free.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Mandatory flexibility by companies = less dynamic economy
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 7:16PM EDT (link)We should all work less and get paid more . . . and people providing services should be available to us 24/7 . . . and companies should be sufficiently staffed so we don’t have to wait . . . and . . . is that a unicorn in my backyard?
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
But so does mandatory inflexibility.
Achance (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 7:25PM EDT (link)Except under the 7K police and fire provisions, it is forty hours in a seven day week or you pay time and a half. Most public sector pay and hours statutes/ordinance make that forty hours in five consecutive days and a guarantee of two consecutive days off. Most union contracts do the same thing.
Several state laws are MUCH more restrictive, mine among them, and most notably CA where without regard to the hours in the week, you get OT over eight hours in a day.
More problematic under FLSA is that mostly the classification for salaried/exempt and OT eligible are base on a workplace and workforce that hasn’t existed in a couple of generation.
In Vino Veritas
As you point out, mandatory inflexibility is primarily a union and public sector phenomenon
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 7:30PM EDT (link)FLSA should be updated, but in this climate, the updates would probably make things worse (lets not give Pelosi any ideas)
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
It works for the Dutch
Menlo (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 10:16PM EDT (link)I don’t think it’s unrealistic in terms of its ability to work. In terms of ever becoming law in this country, it is about as realistic as you claim.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
The Dutch economy is hardly best in class
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:24PM EDT (link)Over the past 30 years, compare average unemployment, GDP growth, etc. Moreover, we have to fund the arsenal of democracy.
Europe can afford to be a passenger on our train. If the US loses its dynamic economy, the technological, military, and economic advantages of the West will decay. Countries like China, Russia, Iran, etc. will become more prominent.
So yeah, go out and demand laws that make our economy less dynamic. You won’t have to pay the price—it will be your kids and grandkids.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I'll never have any
Menlo (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 12:34AM EDT (link)Fortunately, that’s not something I’ll ever have to worry about.
I don’t see much coming from Russia or Iran. South Koreans work among the most hours (much more than Americans), and I don’t see much there either. As for China, any civilized society would have embargoed them long ago. The corporate decision makers who choose to import from China need to get on a “slow boat” and endure the rest of their lives there.
The Dutch have their problems like all economies, but they kept unemployment lower than surrounding areas (and they still make the best cocoa powder). I also find it interesting that the Greeks exceed the US in the number of hours worked per person.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
Nonetheless, if the US econom becomes less dynamic, the West will suffer for it
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, June 28th at 1:22AM EDT (link)in ways that will be quite painful
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Walmart pays more than its competitors pay
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:52AM EDT (link)I know of one person who used to work at Meijers (which is unionized) who recently changed to Walmert.
The inability to receive the desired level of health insurance is hardly unique to Wal-Mart, or to retailers.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
If you're over 25, maybe 30, and working in retail
Achance (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 12:15PM EDT (link)in a non-salaried position, you’ve probably made some bad choices. I think retail is a great place for a young person to get their first work experience, but they should get it and either move up into management or move on.
A really bad thing that both unions and a growing public sector have done is to make what should be low/entry level jobs into careers. Working the sales floor as an hourly employee is a job for kids, second jobs, and retirees, not adults with family responsibilities who are relying on such a job for their whole income. Sure, Costco pays some of its employees a “living wage,” but you might have noticed that Costco isn’t a cheap place to shop; you hardly find a single thing at both WalMart and Costco.
In the public sector, jobs like hospital/nursing home attendents should be entry level jobs from which people move up or out within five years or so. I was a graveyard shift leadman in a psychiatric hospital when I was in school. Without fail the new kids, and they were all kids, would come in all enthusiastic and wanting to “help” people and in six months they would be sitting around discussing the ethics of euthanasia. Those jobs burn you out and the patients/residents become pieces of furniture and are treated as such. If you don’t have the disposition and training to be a true medical professional, you need to get on with your life and get another job. Correctional Officers are much the same; a line officer’s job should be a way to get started or to work your way through school – not that anybody much does that any more, but if after five years or so, you’re not a supervisor and getting some criminal justice or other legal education to make it a career, you’re spending too much time with criminals and are becoming too much like them
In Vino Veritas
Retail wasn't always this way.
taxpayer1234 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 2:49PM EDT (link)My first job was in retail in 1977. I was one of the few part-timers. The rest were full-time. They had a decent wage, full medical benefits, paid vacation, commissions, and bonuses. If full-timers were sent home on a slow day, they didn’t lose their FT status or benefits. Nor did the empoyer make it impossible for a part-timer to become full-time. I was there for two years and was offered a full-time position as a manager trainee, including a full-ride scholarship for a management degree at a local university. These kinds of working conditions weren’t at all unusual back then.
The problem with today’s retail–NOT just Wal-Mart–is that many employers intentionally avoid the benefit issue. Some employers calculate a certain amount of “employee churn” and work to keep the churn within acceptable limits. That’s a lot different than an actual employee retention strategy.
Some companies like Starbucks offer some PT benefits as an alternative to playing the PT/FT game. Frankly, I don’t think it’s a bad idea. I have to give them kudos for making a retention effort, not churn avoidance.
I believe the entire PT-FT benefit issue can be changed for the better if the tie between employment and health insurance were severed. Get rid of the big tax advantages given employers for offering health insurance. Get rid of the insurers’ antitrust exemption so health insurers can do actual risk-rating and sell across state lines. And of couse, repeal Obamacare.
Ah, so its not a Wal-Mart only issue?
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 3:05PM EDT (link)Wal-Mart is simply best in class in terms of cost cutting.
Health care would be a lot less expensive if decoupled from the employer, and de-regulated so that companies like Wal-Mart could offer health clinics in their stores.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Bit judgemental, that
southernilpat Sunday, June 27th at 6:40PM EDT (link)I would say if you have to work 50-60 hours a week to maintain your consumptionist lifestyle, you have made some bad choices. I have deliberately arranged my life so that I don’t have to make a lot of money to survive. I have no mortgage. No car payment. No debt of any kind. Property taxes of less than $100 a year. I can live without any utilities if needed. I can grow my own food and hunt/trap/fish for protein if I had to. I could work elsewhere, but I choose to work at Walmart because it pays more than enough for me live on, has good savings options, provides health insurance, and I get an employee discount. Would it be a viable option for someone who wants to buy a McMansion and a new car every other year? No.
One shouldn’t make wholesale judgments on others.
The point of capitalism is that it allows us to decide what kind of life we live
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 7:19PM EDT (link)Many people misinterpret capitalism to mean a life of crass materialism—when it couldn’t be further form the truth.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
If it weren't for fast cars (and boats), old whiskey, and pretty women,
Achance (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 7:47PM EDT (link)I could have spent my whole life as a WalMart greeter. For me, he who dies iwth the most toys wins!
Yeah, you got that one remaining Commandment down: Thou Shalt Not Judge. Your government school education is showing.
In Vino Veritas
Goody for you
southernilpat Monday, June 28th at 12:59AM EDT (link)Not everyone is as materialistic as you appear to be, however.
You have no idea how I was educated. One does not win a debate by ridiculing one’s opponent. One wins by presenting better arguments.
That last part of your comment, Achance - so true
klondike Sunday, June 27th at 7:34PM EDT (link)If a person does not look at the job as a stepping stone, he endings up investing himself in the job and consequently becomes too much like his “charges.” He insulates himself from the outside world and forms unhealthy work relationships.
You would be referring, taxpayer1234, to employees
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 12:40PM EDT (link)who, if not for WalMart, would be unemployed. Because generally they are unemployable.
I can't believe Wal-Mart is such a comtrntious subject =O {[nt]
qixlqatl (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:07AM EDT (link)“Yet, Freedom! yet thy banner, torn, but flying,
Streams like the thunderstorm against the wind.”
George Gordon Noel Byron
drat it, contentious :/ [nt]
qixlqatl (Diary) Sunday, June 27th at 11:08AM EDT (link)“Yet, Freedom! yet thy banner, torn, but flying,
Streams like the thunderstorm against the wind.”
George Gordon Noel Byron