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Silver reverses course, attacks Rasmussen anyway

538

The New York Times’ Nate Silver is now going after Rasmussen Reports again. After the primaries he said Rasmussen was in his crosshairs for ducking out on a number of races by not polling primaries.

According to Silver’s own chart though, Rasmussen polled twice as often as the second place firm, and is still Silver’s primary target. Funny that.

In fact here’s the exact quote from the pre-New York Times Nate Silver from back in August:

Rasmussen — which polled the McCain-Hayworth primary eight times in a race where there was some disagreement among pollsters — was not willing to do so during the final four weeks of the campaign. Our pollster ratings are always becoming more sophisticated and we’re going to be looking at appropriate ways to punish pollsters who dodge putting their necks on the line.

And yet here we are, with Silver combining the Fox News/Pulse Opinion Research polls with the Rasmussen Reports polls, and the result is that Rasmussen is credited with 105 polls, a total number that no other pollster is even close to. Second place is Public Policy Polling, way down at 45. The rest of the list was notable for absent pollsters CNN/Time, Ipsos/Reuters, Greenberg Quinlan Rosner, and Suffolk University. I wonder why those were omitted.

Of course, even if we leave aside the validity of combining the Fox polls with the Rasmussen polls, does Silver give any credit for Rasmussen going out on a limb and making lots of polls of lots of races? Of course not.

Further, does Silver give any credit for making heavy polling on races which may have tightened late, as Democrats made their final pushes, such as West Virginia Senate, Pennsylvania Senate, or Illinois Governor? Of course not.

So in essence, Silver is punishing Rasmussen for making too many polls on too many interesting, volatile races, which is just the opposite of his last excuse for hitting Rasmussen. This is proof that Silver is just reaching for any excuse of the day to blame his current target of hate in the polling world, now that Strategic Vision moved on from public political polling. Silver can’t even keep consistent his reasons for hating Rasmussen Reports.

Further, though, the aggregation of Pulse Opinion Research and Rasmussen Reports, just because both were founded by Scott Rasmussen, is pretty unfair. It’s clear that Fox gets to dictate its own parameters for its own polls, because Fox didn’t have the same results or Margins of Error even that Rasmussen Reports used.

Yes, I know as a matter of fact that Fox News/POR polls typically had a margin of error of 3. Rasmussen Reports by default had a margin of error of 4.5, which then dropped to 4 for important races, late. When you’ve written up as many of these polls as I have, you know this without even checking.

The MoE difference alone is proof that Fox was dictating terms. If Silver wanted to be taken seriously he’d do an analysis proving that the two polls are conducted the same way, with the same screening and movement over time. He didn’t though. He just lumps the two together, throws on a double asterisk, and moves on with a handwave of saying they are “essentially identical,” but without telling us how we know that.

I have my own post in the works looking at just why so many polls were wrong in favor of Republicans this year. I think it’s a systemic thing and in particular will make SurveyUSA look very good. SUSA came in second place in Silver’s ratings, and that doesn’t surprise me.

Another interesting calculation that Silver didn’t do would be to compare the actual errors in the polls with their listed Margins of Error. Rasmussen I believe is able to get that high volume in part by consistently hitting MoEs in the 4s, rather than the 3s that a PPP does, or the 2.5 that CNN and Time did. That sacrifice in MoE for volume would inherently result in a higher average error. But we’ll never know if that combined 5.8 makes Rasmussen look bad, Fox News really bad, or some combination of the two. Nate Silver didn’t do the right analysis, and he combined the data in a misleading way. He actually destroyed information rather than creating it.

Nate Silver has proven himself to be technically proficient when he wants to be by producing sports statistical works like PECOTA (which he has now turned over to Baseball Prospectus, presumably to focus on politics). However the kind of handwaving that Silver does, time and again, to push his political agenda is not up to that standard. That is why I’m inclined to file his slipshod commentaries against certain pollsters under dishonesty, not simple incompetence.

From Unlikely Voter

COMMENTS

  • http://theminorityreportblog.com Repair_Man_Jack

    Rasmussen did pretty much miss NV-Senate by a country mile! That one was a vodka-hangover if I’ve ever suffered one.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Nobody had Reid winning. Nobody.

  • jollygiantsd

    When a good portion of the electronic voting stations had Ried pre-marked, of course he was going to win. Voter fraud at the highest level and I just hope there is massive recount, and investigations, including a paper ballot revote of that entire race using a ballot similar to what most of Florida uses that cannot be tampered with, without someone getting a hold of large numbers of the ballots and premarking them taking weeks.
    I believe Alex Sink did something similar but stuck with the counties that are easiest to commit the fraud in.

    Image of the Florida ballot I am talking about: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?get_gallery=446

  • IJB

    …And not the *Top-Line* numbers.

    I’m actually more interested in which polling firm was best at getting the *Top-Line* numbers (e.g. how many polling firms actually got it right that Rossi ended up at 49%, or that Murray ended up at 51%?…).

    I think looking at the ‘margin’ (e.g. Murray +2) is actually a significantly less useful exercise, which I think calls into question the usefulness of Silver’s whole analysis…

  • constitutionalconservative

    But I do think that Nate does a pretty good job of calling things honestly given his own partisan leanings. Rasmussen’s performance in this cycle was not up to snuff– and that doesn’t help conservatives– In part because of overly optimistic Rasmussen numbers, we wasted money on non-winnable races and let a few others slip through our fingers.

  • frankmac

    I know Nate is an liberal, but I think his site is pretty good. He seems to take an objective approach to making his projections. No doubt about it, Rasmussen was the weakest pollster this cycle. They way overestimated Republican support, enough so that we ended up spending money on races we had no shot to win (CA, to name one). I’m sure they’ll tighten up their operation to be ready to go in 2010 though.

  • seattlebruce

    The variegated voting systems around the country are rife with the potential for and actual fraud. And the RATS are expert at it.

    This needs to be a TOP priority for the Tea Partiers – like me.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • frankmac

    I meant to say that Rasmussen will be ready to go in 2012, not 2010 (duh!)

  • congressworksforus

    Was because of voter complacency.

    In Ohio, turnout was 49%, 7% down from 2006. The SoS had predicted 52%, which flabbergasted me since people were allegedly “mad as hell”.

    Really?

    49%?

    I guess it’s a good job the Dems stayed home then.

    Had people actually voted instead of “oh, he’s so far ahead it doesn’t matter if I had shown up” Rasmussen’s likely voter model would have been on the mark…

  • IJB

    Rasmussen had about R+8-9 most of the year; his final result was R+12. The numbers are still coming in, but it sounds like the final vote will be something like 55%R-45%D which is R+10. That was a lot closer than nearly everyone else.

    State-by-state polling is hard. I suspect a more evenhanded, less partisan analysis of Rasmussen’s 2010 results will show that he got some states pretty right, and some states fairly wrong.

    But, again, Rasmussen *nailed* some of the ‘top line- numbers in some races (e.g. ND-AL, SD-AL), if not the margins, so I think Nate’s analysis just looking at the margins is somewhere between misleading to disingenuous.

  • swami7774

    According to NRO:
    “Republican pollster Glen Bolger, commissioned to conduct a survey for the Nevada Retail Association in September, showed Reid leading by five points.”
    It’s unclear if he did a subsequent poll.

  • froster

    WA-SEN was off, CA-SEN was off, WV-SEN was off, CO-SEN was off, Hawaii Senate was off (why’d the heck they release that poll? That was embarrassing) and Nevada Senate was off. (everyone got that one wrong) However, PPP and a lot of other polls were off, and almost all of the House polling PPP did was off.

    For a look at the final result and Rasmussen’s final poll result, see here:
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2010/election_2010_senate_elections/final_rasmussen_poll_results_2010_senate_elections

    You can also look at the RCP for Rasmussen’s poll vs the “real poll” http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/senate/

    I like the second link better.

  • Ausonius

    or do not have the time to pay attention to politics, or do not believe that voting makes any difference.

    Like my 50-something brother-in-law: an intelligent computer-savvy “Mister Goodwrench” for a GM dealer here in Ohio.

    He has never voted: “All those politicians are crooks anyway. What difference does it make?” This was the attitude also of his parents, who never voted, although they complained quite a bit about the way the country was going downhill morally under Clinton.

    The attitude of his small-town peers is similar: NASCAR guys, conservative in outlook, who hate being hassled by taxes, but after years of trying to convince them that they should be a little more involved, that their votes really do make a difference, especially if they start a snowball effect with people they know and meet, we suspect they will never change.

    Has there not been for a long time a fairly hardcore non-voting percentage of Americans at between 1/3 to 1/2 of the population?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I’m talking about major public polling, not some obscure private poll that nobody ever heard about until after the fact.

  • tngal

    (after the fact) I mean SOME interested parties( cough unions, casinos) had ensured that Reid was the winner. It’s kinda of like, “pick a number” and I’ll make sure it happens.

  • student

    Rasmussen polled a much wider variety of elections than anybody else. Some are very large elections with large populations where polling confidence is very high. Some, like the Hawaii election that Rasmussen lost, are much smaller and much harder to get consistent numbers – with a large resultant error that biased his overall average. Silver could have compared the pollsters head to head to see who was better on the same election but instead took the average knowing that this really penalized broad pollsters like Rasmussen. He could have compared medians to more accurately compare them or compared them by type of election but instead he choose to use the most misleading comparison. I like his site because it is thoughtful and analytical and teaches well about polling but this particular comparison contained errors in thinking that could not occur by chance and rather reflected taking a cheap shot.