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Perry and Romney steady, Cain and Gingrich pass Paul

By: Neil Stevens (Diary)  |  September 26th, 2011 at 04:00 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Perry Romney

A couple of debates ago we looked at where the Republican Presidential primary stood nationally. Since then we’ve seen Mitt Romney surge, presumably as the anti-Rick Perry candidate.

But will Perry himself tumble after widely criticized debate efforts? Let’s check the new CNN poll.

The facts: 447 Republican registered voters, MoE 4.5. Mobile and landline telephone polling.

Reading the results, my immediate reaction is that there’s no news here. At the top anyway, there’s only statistical noise: Rick Perry is barely changed, going down to 30% from 32%. I show a 59% chance that there’s real movement there, given then MoE of 4.5. Mitt Romney is up to 22% from 21%, which I only show a 54% chance of being real.

For comparison’s sake, Perry’s 8% lead I show as having an 81% chance of being an actual lead among Republicans.

But in the lower tier of candidates, two candidates have pulled themselves up above the Pauldoza line: Newt Gingrich who shows a sudden 4 point burst to 11%, and Herman Cain with a 3 point jump to 7%. Neither would have been above the last poll’s showing for Ron Paul, but his six point collapse to 7% let them pull up above him.

I find it odd that Gingrich surges but Perry remains virtually constant. Could the debates be helping the former Speaker but not hurting the Texas governor? Or is this just a random blip in the radar? With a 5% chance of any result being outside of the Margin of Error, and so many candidates in every poll, flukes will happen. Only time and more polls will show us the truth.

Crossposted from Unlikely Voter

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COMMENTS

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  • Marcus_Traianus

    can’t beat Newt in a debate. He is probably the best informed, most articulate bastion of knowledge on the stage. Notice nobody really challenges him on facts?

    Too bad really.

  • Russ Martin

    are hanging with him, for now, despite his terrible debate performances. If he continues to demonstrate that he cannot do a better job articulating his positions, I suspect he’ll bleed support.

    I think the Romney support is probably pretty firm. The rest of the people are searching for someone else. As candidates drop out, it will be interesting to see where they go.

    I will be surprised if we see a new entry into the race.

  • gekster

    it seams Palin has only 4 days left for her end of September announcing date.
    Will she or won’t she.
    I am curious as all get out to see what finally becomes of that.

  • freentn

    by far. I would definitely vote for Newt if he is the nominee.

  • pttx333

    dealing with the Texas wildfires AND the fact that Perry is the only one on stage with a real job! What a concept.

    http://townhall.com/columnists/sandyrios/2011/09/26/at_least_perry_has_an_excuse/page/full/

    Authored by Sandy Rios.

  • chipbennett

    In your honest opinion, how relevant are these polls? Clearly the sample sizes are small to being with (as evidenced by a 4.5 MoE), but more importantly: candidates are chosen by delegates, who are assigned via primary elections, which are held state-to-state.

    So how meaningful is a nationwide poll in this case? Doesn’t it all become speculative, unless/until we have some idea of the voter preferences in specific, influential (either due to timing or due to number of delegates) states?

    I’m just curious regarding your thoughts of correlation of these data to any given, state primary?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I think they’re relevant because I think at this point, it’s critical to know who’s going to be able to raise the money and maintain the support to stay in the race, as well as to know who can realistically be expected to win states.

    A Mitt Romney or a Rick Perry are much more likely to be able to stay in the race when (at least) one of them loses IA, than a Jon Huntsman or a Rick Santorum is. This we know from national polling.

  • freentn

    that last debate, I doubt that he will lose any support. I can’t imagine him doing any worse than he did in the last debate. Perry had back surgery in July. He looked like he was in pain in the last two debates and in the last one he looked in he had taken some pain medication. His performance will improve if he can get some relief for the pain that does not diminish his clarity of thought. Having had a ruptured disc in my back, I can see how standing on those stages for two hours would be painful.

    He would have been better off to take the 5th than to answer the way he did when he was trying to explain romney’s Flip-Flops. His supporters know how successful he has been as Gov of Texas and they will stick with him because after all is said and done he has the best chance to beat Romney, BO or Hillary.

  • freentn

    I’m glad that someone finally addressed the back surgery issue.

  • tyman

    http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2011/09/is-rick-perrys-bad-back-hurting-him-in-debates-observer-said-he-looked-in-pain.html

    I’m not looking to give him a pass, but when I had a kidney stone back in April, I couldn’t have debated with my 9 year old that 2+2=4.

  • freentn

    !

  • kevinj84

    If, even if not the candidate, we could see a debate between Gingrich and Obama. A true professor vs. a wannabe.

    That would be a classic for the ages.

  • Scope

    I love your links but, if you post them as immediately clickable, more people will click on the link and read the article.

    I am a computer dummy but there was a very nice guy that showed me how to do clickable links.

    Before the http portion type in this section add what you want to refer to the link as, such as perry back hurting, and then after hurting which will close the link.

    Just a suggestion as I have loved your links to articles of importance.

  • renl57

    Perry 28%, Romney 21% still leaves over 70% of the Republicans unexcited about either one of these. The big winner is “Neither of these.”

    If the primaries reflected that result, neither Perry nor Romney would go into the convention with anything close to a majority of the delegates. Most delegates would support a different candidate or be unpledged.

    The way I read it, Perry and Romney each has gotten votes from his natural base in the GOP–Perry in the Sun Belt, Romney in the North–but neither one has broken out beyond that base, or even captured the vast majority of that base yet.

  • Scope

    let me do this as I was instructed.

    words you want highlighted as link

    Man I hope that works.

  • Scope

    where is my buddy that posted those instruction to me?

  • wennejunk

    I wonder if that is from background work on getting ready or from taking a breather from all the exposure.

  • carolina

    per CBS: http://tinyurl.com/3gg2mtf

    - sigh -

  • carolina

    per CBS: http://tinyurl.com/3gg2mtf

    - sigh -

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    … You can find my classic HTML Help series.

  • Kenny Martsolf

    It is [a href="full web address"] text you want highlighted as link [/a]

    The web address within the quotation marks must contain the http://. You also must replace the [ and ] with the greater than and less than sign that faces in the same direction as the bracket.

    The reason it didn’t work for you, Scope, is because you used the greater than/less than signs. That makes it functional.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Right now there are a lot of candidates who aren’t going to make it to the convention.

  • Scope

    according to polling, Perry had much higher intensity support among his supporters as I suspect they were that intense because they looked at his record. The intensity support for Romney, at least by one pollster, has his intensity support at less than half of those that were for him. Romney’s support throughout this whole season has been weak on willingness to stay with the candidate against all odds.

  • tyman

    I’ve wanted to learn how to do that.

    I’ll try and oblige.

  • tyman

    This article from the Huffingandpuffington Post about Roger Ailes trying to move Fox News from the far right.

    [a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/26/roger-ailes-fox-news-course-correction_n_980850.html"] Roger Ailes: Fox News Is On A ‘Course Correction’ Away From Far Right [/a]

  • tyman

    [a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/26/roger-ailes-fox-news-course-correction_n_980850.html"] [Roger Ailes: Fox News Is On A ?Course Correction? Away From Far Right/a]

  • toothpick

    Perry @ 28% + Romney @ 21% = 49% divided between them. My calculator says that leaves 51% divided among everyone else, not 70%.

    It would be interesting to know what is the 2nd place candidate for those who are backing the also-rans. I.e. when Huntsman, Gingrich, etc drop out, who will grab their votes. I don’t know if any polls capture that information.

  • californiagold

    As the CNN poll confirms, this is still Rick Perry’s race to lose. What this poll and others continue to show is that Mitt Romney has a ceiling of support which he will never change.

    In spite of Rick Perry’s poor debate performances, and in spite of the negative attacks towards Perry coming from the Fox news all stars, (ie, the Romneybots) Perry has maintained his lead.

    Perry has advantages going into the primary season…lots of money, and a strong ground game. Once the TV ads start, I expect Romney will not be able to defend his Massachusetts record.

  • tyman
  • Scope

    and the article points out so much of the false Romey and his terrible game to get the nod no matter what. Kudos to the author for pointing out the waffling Romney persona.

    Perry may not be the most articulate, or eloquent speaker, as Bush wasn’t. I have many problems with the Bush domestic issues, but, no matter how mangled or non-existent his words may have been on keeping the country safe, he managed to do just that. Perry will do the same. I would actually have a sense of security with Perry.

    Hey, how many other candidates have talked about regulatory reform with having a record to prove that. How many have even broached the idea of tort reform and loser pays laws. Huh, no other candidate will touch those issues because they are scared to death with going against the big time Democrat supporting lawyers. They are also scared of going up against the EPA for it’s job killing regulations. Perry has at least 6 lawsuits going in Texas against the EPA lawsuits.

  • freentn

    captures the 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th choices. Not scientific since it is an internet poll but surely there are polls that calculate second choices.

    It stands to reason that since Perry is a conservative like the rest of the field except Huntsman are conservative that most of the conservative vote if not all of it will go to Perry. When all is said and done I expect that romney will be around 22% as he was in 2008 and Perry will have around 5o%.

  • Scope

    Unfortunately we live in a society where everything should be just a click away from your next big lottery payout.

    I will now sit back and wait for your terrific links.

  • tyman

    that there is no perfect candidate.

  • californiagold

    It’s so blatantly obvious that Fox News has become cheerleaders for the Romney campaign – from Karl Rove trashing Perry the day Perry entered the race, etc, etc, etc,,,

    It’s also somewhat strange that Fox News would release Beck at a time when Beck was in first place in his ratings time slot. Could it be that Beck was a Perry/Palin supporter ?

    For Fox News to continue to claim they are fair and balanced is about as accurate as MSNBC claiming that they are a news organization.

  • kestrel

    The proposed offset is about 1/3 of what Appropriations Committee Chairman Hal Rogers said is “a stagnant ?stimulus? program that currently has more than $4 billion in unspent funds.”

    Knudsen at Heritage calls the $774 million for the FEMA “slightly more than a rounding error in the government?s more than $1 trillion in annual discretionary spending,” adding, “It is ludicrous to assert that nothing can be deferred or eliminated to ‘provide the relief that our fellow Americans need…’”
    http://blog.heritage.org/2011/09/24/the-continuing-saga-of-the-cr-choking-on-offsets/

    This is worth reading:
    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/elisabethmeinecke/2011/09/26/how_we_got_to_this_cr_mess

    I’d really like to know why there is no penalty for the Democrat-controlled legislature’s failure to pass ANY budget or appropriations bills last year. Something is dramatically wrong. And Cain’s making hay out of this doesn’t become him.

  • Scope

    it was your help that instructed me in my quest to be up with posting clickable links. I owe you much for that wonderful free instruction. Shall I send the check to clickable links for dummies? LOL

  • Raven

    Newt Gingrich vs Biden in the VP debate would be just priceless.

  • freentn

    That is why Perry will remain a frontrunner. He can raise money. He knows how to win. In fact, he has never lost an election.

    romney can raise money but he has lost all but one of his bids for elective office.

  • http://www4.webng.com/rickbull/lostlucky/ rickbull

    NT

  • freentn

    some relief for his back pain and he will widen his lead over romney and the also-rans. By the end of the primary season, I expect that only Perry, romney, Paul and Newt will still be in the race.

  • Scope

    from web sources as I’m sure you are doing. I want nothing, and I mean nothing to do with Fox anymore. If more understood what they are doing maybe, just maybe they would turn Fox off as still another shill site.

    One thing I found interesting. Ron Paul and his supporters screamed that Fox was ignoring him, and that Fox was in the bag for whoever. Now Ron Paul is their most often guest, on all the hosts shows. Perry wouldn’t get that opportunity as he actually has a chance of winning.

    I am thrilled that the Fox agenda has been exposed, even if it takes lefty sites to do it.

  • freentn

    is one of the best political ads that I have ever seen.

    Once his media team produces a similar ad focusing on romney’s Flip-Flops, romney’s campaign will be dead in the water.

    I can’t say what I really think about romney for fear of being banned so let it suffice to say that romney is as disingenuous and inconsistent as BO.

  • Scope

    Perry will never complain about his back pain.

  • Doc Holliday

    (Woods, Faldo, Duval, etc) who just can’t stop fiddling with his swing even after winning everything. The empirical results are always disastrous. MSLSD is too far gone, but I could see CNN waiting in the wings to feed off the Fox carcass.

    You take conservatism away from Fox, and all you have left is the Jerry Springer Show.

  • tyman

    is exactly what they wanted in the debate last Thursday.

    I guess the ratings vindicated that for them.

  • freentn

    The pain was indescribable. Perry’s standing on those stages for 2 hours at a time is beyond my imagination. Anyone who has had a ruptured disc will know what I am talking about. The pain is blinding, it is nearly impossible to concentrate on anything but the pain. Perry’s strength is remarkable.

    He may never talk about it but I think he should because I think he will connect with a lot of people who have had bulging or ruptured discs.

    I salute Gov Perry for his courage and true grit.

  • Kenny Martsolf

    I try to help when I can.

  • Scope

    where he will just move wrong, and literally be rendered useless. I asked him tonight if he would be able to stand for two hours when he was having those problems, and he reminded me of how he was not in the best mood with me or anything when he was in such pain. Hint a total bear with a lust for blood. He hasn’t even had back surgery either.

  • jaykali

    Because he was awful on stage, I hope he heals and picks up his game. It should be so easy to attack Romney, but Romney is simply the better debater no question.

  • freentn

    that she would have to attend to another helpless human who had to be served meals in bed after we had raised our Children.

    Fortunately, my vertebrae fused naturally and I did not have to have surgery but I have constant numbness in my left foot and intermittent back pain still.

    Perry deserves immense respect for having the fortitude to walk onto those stages and stand up for 2 hours.

  • Scope

    Just admit you guys like the babying. LOL

  • freentn

    I’ll take the babying anytime! But just go easy on the pain.

    LOL!

  • Scope

    use lies and misstatemets to back up his debating skills? Would you rather have a smooth, smiling guy who is lying through his teeth in the WH? That’s been proven exactly what Romney did in the last debate.

    About the only illegal immigration thing Romney did as Governor was to not support in state tuition for illegals. If you look at his record, he was even more lenient than Perry. Check it out for yourself. He supported the McCain/Kennedy bill. He never did the first thing to stop sanctuary cities in Mass as Gov, and actually kept sending those santuary cities money to fund the illegal activities. Does that make him stronger on the illegal problem? Records are really pesky problems aren’t they?

  • pttx333

    and informative article about our guy on RS. It was such a thrill to have just stumbled on it somewhere (Lucianne maybe?). I did so want everyone to read it and know that Perry is not some moron or bumbling cowboy.

    You are so correct about Bush – I stayed angry with him a lot of the time, but I still knew we were safe and that his heart was in the right place. Perry is the same way – I won’t always agree with him (and haven’t), but his heart is in the right place and, like Bush, he loves this country. Actually, they are both fearless in the face of an enemy.

    And, guess what, their being inarticulate sometimes is very endearing to me. Just as RWM was saying the other day about dates – to me, with Perry I envision him back when he was courting Anita going up to her house for the first time with a little bouquet of wild flowers, chewing Juicy Fruit gum and sort of hem-hawing around. At least you know they are honest and not some slick talking dude who will do you wrong the first chance he gets.

    Another thing that I’m sick of is the elitists being horrified that Perry shot a coyote. Now what was he supposed to do – let it kill his little dog or attack him? No one that I ever talked to in Texas thought a thing about it other than “good for Perry.” Geez – sure do wish folks would get a grip on reality.

  • Robert A. Hahn

    I don’t know what the reputation of Zogby’s “interactive” polls is like, but he just published one that was still out when Cain won the Florida straw poll.

    Since the previous poll, Perry dropped from 37% to 18%, and Cain went from 12% to — count ‘em — 28%. Cain now leads the field.

    IBOPE/Zogby

  • tyman

    Perry may not be Reagan, but you can’t help but be reminded of the Gipper with talk of our best days being ahead.

    That attitude by itself will make people feel better!

  • pttx333

    here so everyone could read it. Just wanted to share something so positive about Perry after the latest bashing he’s taken. But I will stand by him no matter what comes down the pike. I will, though, vote for whoever the GOP candidate happens to be – but I do pray that it is Perry. ;-)

  • runner12

    As a PT, I noticed that Perry’s posture was quite odd during the debate. It was too upright and unnatural. It seemed as if he was either experiencing muscle spasms or muscle guarding due to pain.

  • carolina

    However, Zogby was focused on “GOP primary voters”. CNN tends to just randomly call people (that often don’t even vote).

    At least Romney was slightly lower than Perry.

  • wonkish1

    Look at its previous results. Cain – 18% in July. Perry once at 41%? Romney at 17% now and 14% a month ago.

    Pure junk! Hence why its not counted in the RCP list.

    That said I do expect Cain’s numbers to have a nice healthy bump over the next couple weeks.

  • http://www.AmericanThinker.com Hammer2008

    http://www.ibopezogby.com/news/2011/09/26/ibope-zogby-poll-perry-plummets-18-trails-cain-lead-among-gop-primary-voters/

  • wonkish1

    That poll is junk.

    Cain will have a nice bump in over the next couple weeks, but you can’t possibly look at that polls previous numbers and say anything, but “Yeah right”.

  • nvrepub

    seriously

  • wonkish1

    nt

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    They use a self-selecting ‘panel’ of online participants.

    So motivation to sway the result is a huge factor, where in real polling it’s not at all.

  • davesinsanantonio

    Just trying to stir the pot here.

  • cacharlie

    - why anyone trusts glib debators when Obama has proved what we definitely don’t need is a silver tongued devil in the White House!
    Perry’s no nonsense effort doesn’t disappoint me and Cain’s optimistim really lifts my spirits.
    Both of these men represent what I like about Palin, and I’m sorry it doesn’t appear likely she would draw independent-light voters.

  • ihateliberals

    Even as late as Feb 2008 McCain was not doing well in the national polls being taken by the media. Once the primaries actually started the the real people had a chance to vote without the media influence things change rather fast. With in two or three primaries McCain surged ahead and won the nomination. This gives me hope the some other candidate besides Perry or Romney will win the nomination. If we continue down the same road again with only a RINO as a choice against Obama we have a very slim chance of winning n 2012. I know everyone says what are you talking about all the polls indicate otherwise. Well for one thing all of the polls are skewed this time by the media because they are all media polls. The sample sizes are far too small to be accurate. even back in 2007-2008 the polling sizes were in t least the 10K range. Even Gallop this time is only using 2-3 thousand sample sizes. While their alleged experts say tht is enough I pray they are wrong. We need to get rid of Obama and Perry nor Romney is the answer. Actually id Romney is the answer then no one understood the question.

  • ihateliberals

    Any poll run by a Network is not anymore accurate the let’s say a FOX news poll. When add in that the polling sample used by CNN, Gallop etc this year is only in the low thousands then the accuracy is skewed greatly even though they say no.

  • Tom Anderson

    how is governor any more a real job than Paul and Bachmann being in Congress? All of them are government jobs.

    I could understand if you had said “a real executive job”…

    Also, Cain had a real private sector job up until he decided to run. He was required by law to give that job up once he became a candidate, so it’s not really fair to say he doesn’t have a real job.

  • ihateliberals

    All of these polling centers brag about how accurate they are and are only using 100-2000 respondents. If that is true then why even go to the expense of a national election when you know wht the results wil be anyway? Well my answer to that is back in 2008 Mc/cain was losing in every poll yet when it came to the actual voting everyone else lost big time. with that in mind then there is still hope that the front runners will change in the upcoming primaries. The top three front runners are the absolute worse candidates the Republicans could choose. It woul dbe McCain 2.0 if Romney or Perry either one were to win the nomination. so many conservatives just wouldn’t bother to use the gas to go to the polls that day. It would be a choice of “Do you want to shoot the left foot or the right foot? not much of a choice.

    I am a life long Conservative Republican and the last four Republican nominee’s have been a huge disappointment to me. Bush, Dole, Bush and then McCain. All RINO’s not a choice for any conservative. Then when you consider that these last four nominee’s have made it quite clear that conservatives aren’t welcome What’s a good conservative to do. I’ll tell you, screw it all and just try to survive on what’s left of your life. because with another RINO or Liberal in the White House there isn’t much hope for us to be a 250 year old country.

  • pttx333

    would seem to me that Paul and Bachmann being in Congress doesn’t mean much since they are never at work and no one cares. Particularly in Paul’s case, he will not be running for Congress again so, in essence, he is a Congressman in name only – so it would appear he won’t be there to do any more work. Perry as Governor does have duties that must be performed, and he does them as usual.

    Cain is a different matter. He has worked very hard all of his life and has more than paid his dues in the private sector, and now he is campaigning with no paycheck from another source. As for Paul and Bachmann, they are drawing paychecks from the taxpayers for doing nothing except campaigning for their own gain.

  • gaudium

    Newt is the best debater but like Romney he also is a RINO and I am sick and tired of the RINOs and there Liberal big government. We need a real conservative for a change that will not be terrified to roll back the crap that the liberals and RINOs have forced on the America tax payer over the passed 25 years

  • http://www.va5thdistrict.blogspot.com va5thdistrict

    did CNN not ask the question comparing Obama to Cain in a general election. They asked about Palin(who is not even a primary candidate yet), Paul, Bachmann( who is polling below Herman), and of course Perry and Romney. Are they afraid to compare a black conservative against a black liberal? I have yet to see any polls comparing Herman Cain directly to Barrack Obama. Is the media afraid that he might out shine their chosen ones?

  • rkcurtin

    Newt is the most intellectual of the bunch by far. But, that doesn’t translate into a good manager. The President also has to be a good executive officer. I don’t know about his tenure as Speaker to know if he was good at that.

    Now, add Herman Cain to the ticket and give him real authority as a VP, and you’ve got something good.

  • freentn

    support any candidate other than romney. If romney is nominated I honestly don’t know what I will do but in that case I hope there is a legitimate 3rd Party alternative.

  • flchristyb

    It would be classic to see Newt make obummer look, and sound, like the fool he is, I would definitely pay to see that debate!

  • dalehogue

    I have heard this RINO STUFF so many times it gives me a headache, but nobody seems to be able to describe who or what a conservative really is or really does that makes him or her a conservative. Quite frankly, more than likely the Republican Party is madeup of many consevatives, some moderates, and some liberals. Who, in your opinion, in the Republican Party should be the decider when it comes to describing a real Republican? I have always considered myself a true republican, yet I’m liberal thinker on some things, a moderate thinker on others and a very conservative thinker on economic matters. Does that make me a RINO? Or am I a true Republican?

    Google: Hogue/Johnny Lee Clary

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    .

  • jaykali

    Obama will do the exact same, probably WORSE so if you are on the right side of the argument you have to be able to make your case. If you can’t debate you will lose.

    The issue where Perry is wrong is on the illegal immigration deal, maybe he could have framed it differently but on the merits he is basically supported a democratic policy. I think it’s a minor issue over all bc I don’t think any Republican is going to be soft on illegal immigration particularly when compared to Democrats.

    Unfortunately Perry’s defense of the illegal immigration thing is more damaging bc it (may) reveal a thought process that conservatives won’t trust. That is using the Democrat “you don’t have a heart”-style argument if you don’t support x/y/z. That is going to continue to hurt him, he should disown the illegal thing right now. He already has said he wishes he hadn’t done the HPV deal, he can explain away that one more easily. But this illegal deal and his lack of debating prowess is hurting him certainly.

    I still like him better than Romney I suppose and better than the field (I suppose). I do want to win though worse than anything.

  • losmacs

    in preference to the incumbent.

  • losmacs

    I’d vote for Hillary in preference to Obama.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Sample size issues are baked in when you use the Margin of Error.

  • freentn

    “smooth, smiling guy who is lying through his teeth in the WH” like romney or bo.

  • Tom Anderson

    My point was that Cain had a “real” job – earning a paycheck from another source – that he gave up in order to run. In other words, he has sacrificed a lucrative career to do what he feels he is called to do.

    I for one am impressed that all of his experience is in the private sector. He has no political baggage to carry, unlike ALL of the other candidates (even the potential candidates like Palin and Christie). I count that as a huge plus…others disagree.

  • pttx333

    and I don’t disagree with you at all. He is a very honorable and decent man – not to mention very smart. If he isn’t our nominee, then I do fervently hope that he will have a very VIP position in the new Republican administration.

  • msjallen

    don’t vote a 3rd party since that will put 0 in for another 4 years and the opportunity to completely ruin our Nation.

  • gekster

    Some people while thinking they are acting smart,
    are really being very dumb.

  • avagreen

    His back surgery explains a lot. I had no idea until reading of this on this site.

    Explains a lot.

    I admire him even more.