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Confirmed: We have a three way race for now

Romney Perry Cain

First it was one national poll, and we could wait and see. Then it was a pair of state polls, and we could hold on for one more national poll.

But after the new ABC News/Washington Post poll, there’s no denying it. For now we have a three way Republican Presidential race between Mitt Romney, Rick Perry, and Herman Cain.

The facts: Telephone poll by Abt-SRBI for ABC News and the Washington Post., landline and mobile phone handling included. 1002 adults polled. No details I can see of the registered Republicans polled, as 16 questions are omitted from the release. With an MoE of 4 for the whole sample, we can probably guess at an MoE around 6 for the Republican part of the poll.

Among registered Republican voters, Romney leads at 20. Perry and Cain are tied for second at 15. Third and fourth are two non-candidates who total 18% between them. I don’t need my software to tell me that an actual tie is an actual tie, and statistically Cain and Perry are in the same spot, with Romney ahead of them. Cain has caught up.

If not allowed to pick Chris Christie or Sarah Palin, that 18% breaks 30 for Romney, 17 for Michele Bachmann, and 10 for Ron Paul. 17% of 18% isn’t enough to change the results, so the Christie and Palin factors don’t influence the top three and their positions relative to each other and to the rest of the field.

Cain’s rise has been different from those of previous upstart candidates. Michele Bachmann’s rise coincided with the fall of Tim Pawlenty. Rick Perry’s rise coincided with Michele Bachmann’s decline. Cain however has risen without Perry falling off the chart. This is new and interesting.

I expect some critics of Mitt Romney to panic about this, and fear that a “conservative split” will “let Romney coast to the nomination.” I believe that’s an unfounded fear. Not only are there three more months before the actual caucuses and primaries begin, but the early primaries and caucuses are not allowed under Republican Party rules to be winner-take-all affairs. Therefore both Perry and Cain, assuming this situation continued to the primaries, could both tally up delegates, fighting it out with Romney to see who can remain standing.

Party nomination processes are not randomly put together. They have evolved over the years to produce results favorable to the party and the party’s membership. Both Democrats and Republicans have been through this before. The party processes aren’t going to break down just because of a three way race, which is anything but unprecedented.

Crossposted from Unlikely Voter

COMMENTS

  • http://www.redstate.com/thesophist TheSophist

    As I’ve written before, in October of 2010, I’m more than happy for Cain to be the second choice of both Perry and Romney camps. And I think he is.

    By the time March of 2012 rolls around, I think Cain could pick up enough soft-Romney and soft-Perry supporters to actually emerge as the consensus candidate of both sides.

    That, of course, assumes that Cain doesn’t make stupid unforced errors, upgrades his campaign staff, and starts putting out substantive ideas.

  • rechts

    Romney it is then.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    So I show you a tie for second and you decide it’s specifically good for your guy?

    You Candi-bots crack me up.

  • wonkish1

    Every single day now for more than a week that guy has been just running around spewing unsubstantiated crap at everybody other that Perry.

    It is grown to the point of beyond annoying.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    The question is how soon can you drive the others out of the race that will help you.

    If Bachmann quits today, it seems likely that the 25-16-16 gap would change to something like 25-20-20.

    Cain still has a chance. I was annoyed with him yesterday, but I think that he has said what he needed to say.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    But I can mock him for being to Herman Cain what Hugh Hewitt has been for Mitt Romney.

    Solid B+.

  • freentn

    but he has blown it with the CNN & Fox interviews and once I started reading his bio and looking at him more closely, I began to see lots of red flags. Sure I would vote for him if it was done to Cain or Romney but that is the only way that I would vote for him now.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You vastly underestimate how popular Mitt Romney is. In the poll today even, Romney gets great numbers from people who would otherwise back Palin or Christie.

  • bzip

    The way I look at this is: If you assume no other changes take place then we have a few possibilities;

    Cain overcomes Perry: This would result in either Mitt or Cain winning the nomination. My guess is Mitt would win the nomination. Would Cain really have the backing money wise to see it all the way through and be competitive with Mitt? Also, when push comes to shove and people face reality are they going to put the fate of the country in the hands of someone who has never held office? Do you think the country is ready for someone who has never held office.
    In this case Mitt is a sure win for the nomination if Cain does overcomes Perry.

    Perry overcomes Cain: This would result in either Mitt or Perry winning the nomination. My guess is Perry would win the nomination. If Perry does overcomes Cain, then Mitt is not such a shoe in for the nomination.

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    You tell us all how to identify the Cc for a critically damped spring as a result of solving the 2nd Order ODE for a harmonic oscillator and you can feel free to talk about how Herman Cain was a professional AA Baby for working as a ballistic mathematician.

  • acat

    (nothin’ further)

  • wonkish1

    Again I think at least a warning would do the trick.

    But, assuming he did this day in day out for the next month and by the end of that time he’s accusing everybody of being the spawn of Satan, you still couldn’t ban him? Isn’t there at least some discretion that is given to you mods?

  • renl57

    I very much doubt that in the end, the GOP will nominate a total outsider for President.

    But if Cain starts winning a sizable portion of the delegates to the convention, then Romney and Perry will have to offer Cain something big to get those delegates to switch.

    Looks like Cain is headed for a Cabinet post. Or even the Vice Presidency.

  • daddyman

    cain will clean up the perry thing, and then clean up mitt and perry in the debate….

    cain will get much more exposure in the next debates, and will therefore be able to put more policy in front of the country……he has made the most of his limited time so far by simply emphasizing 9-9-9…

    mitt will try to move closer to cain’s position on the tax code, and then cain will have him…..perry will clobber mitt on the book thing and then mitt will have problems on both sides for the first time in the campaign…..

  • snowshooze

    Can Perry actually translate from Texan to English in his head?
    Can Romney find enough lipstick for the pig?
    I am enjoying this, and wonder if this is an abberation, or will it stand.
    At this point, it could turn over again rather quickly.
    And, as previously stated,I believe Newt may be able to make a serious move, just due to his ability to handle himself in a barfight.
    Really, I didn’t see this coming.
    I still want to know more about what Hermin Cain really believes, of all the Candidates, I have the least ” feel ” of Hermin and where he is coming from.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Don’t you think there’s a risk of some people put off by a national sales tax pl an, *expanding* the IRS instead of contracting it?

  • Whacker77

    There is no way Cain is a real choice for the presidency. He’s leaving the campaign trail for most of October for a book tour. That’s not someone interested in winning. Sorry.

    Even worse, Politico reports a law firm representing Palin is calling states about filing deadlines. I guess the half termer wants some more attention.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    yeah, nothing here.

  • Russ Martin

    I’m (currently) a Perry supporter, and while I like Cain, some of his recent comments have bothered me, and apparently, some others. He seems to speak his mind, before gathering all the facts, and this can be dangerous, both for a candidate, and the President.

    It will be interesting to see how Perry and Cain are doing in the fundraising department. This will be a long and expensive race, and both will need to raise a lot of money to stay in it until the end.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    People like these candidates, once you step outside of the Internet bubble.

  • freentn

    Conservative Republican left standing in the room.

  • Scope

    Another hit piece with nothing but allegations, and absolutely no proof at all.

  • wonkish1

    But apparently Perry’s team is claiming they beat their $10 million target.

    Cain’s camp has been pretty hush, but most guesstimates peg him some where around $3-4 most likely. Keep in mind that Cain didn’t catch on fire until the last week or so of Q3.

  • haners

    And I also like my president to be able to string two sentences together on his feet without sounding like he was drugged on Oxycontin.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    And I’m speaking from my perspective, not anyone else’s, so I’m not wrong unless I don’t know what is in my own mind. People seem to have a hard time with opinions around here. Unless I specifically say I’m speaking for others, I’m only speaking for myself. This is about MY vote, not anyone else’s.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    You’re claiming that quality is subjective, and that public opinion polling reflects your opinion of candidate quality?

    Come now.

  • gekster

    The writing styles are the same.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    .

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I don’t see how he gets a handicap.

  • haners

    to see who he’ll support.

  • pantera

    So 50% have decided to not back any of the top 3.
    Someone could step up and be the BIG frontrunner.

    Who will that be? It’s there for the taking.

  • jaykali

    It’s Romney, we all know it. Unless like the NYT launches a front page hit story on him having an affair or the WaPost finds a racist rock on his property but that would never happen to a high profile Republican candidate.

  • lineholder

    that makes me wish Perry would just bring it. And do it soon.

    I love Mr. Cain, but he hasn’t been able to gain any significant national level name recognition so far, even with all the months he has been in the race. That’s a big problem going into the primaries.

    But if Perry doesn’t bring it soon so we can see how well received he is nationally, that’s a problem, too.

  • daddyman

    thousands of laws, loopholes, credits, and exclusions that Congress has created over the years. going to any tax plan that can be put on a single sheet of paper will reduce the irs in size

    as i have heard the 9-9-9 explained, it would require a 2/3 majority vote in Congress to modify the rates. that provision should keep it from being played with too much.

    if passed, i believe that 9-9-9 will be changed into the fair tax (in stages). reductions in personal income tax offset by increases to sales tax would be the most likely first step.

  • wonkish1

    ?

  • freentn

    Romney.

  • acat

    Among registered Republican voters, Romney leads at 20. Perry and Cain are tied for second at 15. Third and fourth are two non-candidates who total 18% between them. I don?t need my software to tell me that an actual tie is an actual tie, and statistically Cain and Perry are in the same spot, with Romney ahead of them. Cain has caught up.

    If not allowed to pick Chris Christie or Sarah Palin, that 18% breaks 30 for Romney, 17 for Michele Bachmann, and 10 for Ron Paul. 17% of 18% isn?t enough to change the results, so the Christie and Palin factors don?t influence the top three and their positions relative to each other and to the rest of the field.

    Palin and Christie *together* pull 18%.

    Seriously.

    Mew

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    unless with a constitutional amendment.

    A law can say it needs 2/3 to change it but a subsequent law can merely do away with the previous law’s requirements.

  • lineholder

    Just a bit of friendly advice…leave it be. Look at the poster’s presence as a challenge and rise to meet it.

  • wonkish1

    That is a fact. Cain isn’t going anywhere from his current spot and neither is Perry until that debate occurs.

    That is why I sit around and watch the constant back and forth from people sniping each other and saying it over and over and over again…and I just scratch my head. I mean people don’t realize that after the next debate “heartless”, Cains remarks to “n***erhead”, etc. get thrown out and replaced by new stuff. They go the way of “Sharia Law” and “Gardasil causes retardation”.

    So I guess I don’t get the point of saying the same thing to the same people 500 times in a row just to make sure they get it.

  • wonkish1

    As to what can lead to banning and what can’t.

  • Whacker77

    You’re rationalizing a terrible group of candidates. Let’s see.

    Romney – Flipflopping retread
    Perry – Struggles making any points
    Cain – More interested in selling books
    Gingrich – Ethical fraud who sells books
    Bachmann – Shameless self promoter of nonsense
    Paul – Trure screwball
    Huntsman – Liberal
    Santorum – Sanctimonious 20 point loser in own state

    Wow, impressive group.

  • daddyman

    does anyone have an example of a similar happening?

  • clintonformccain

    Perry’s fall isn’t really about debate performances. It’s about him not throwing red enough meat on illegal immigration to the base. The irony is that the Texas tuition policy would help Perry in the general election. Unfortuately, the Republican field is doing a poor job of not allowing themselves to get pulled off message by the media.

    An even bigger irony is that the Repubicans are almost assured of noiminating a candidate who gains electabilty by going against the grain of at least one major tenant of Republican base orthodoxy.

  • red_oakster

    Perry is now running poorly in places like Virginia and Florida. And Cain has a ceiling based on his lack of political experience.

    Romney can coast if this is the field. I know I’m in the minority, but I think we’ll see at least one more entrant.

  • lineholder

    you’re referring to, there’s a specific reason behind it, but they’re actually making things worse right now not better. Good intentions gone awry.

    Perry could come out of this smelling like a rose if he wants to by simply saying that people will have to make up their own minds about the racism claims against him, but for the time being, due to the status of the economy and other more important national issues, he’s choosing to focus on those issues instead.

    It puts the emphasis back on the issues, which is exactly what liberals don’t want to see happen.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    that if Cain is polling this high, the quality of candidates is low across the board.

    Again…MY opinion.

  • snowshooze

    I felt he was largely passed over in the previous debates, and that they were so intent on leading his conversation that he could not get his message out.
    I want to hear the man speak.

    When is the next one, anyway?
    Erick, any luck with the project yet?
    Anyway, we need to get the debates out of the labrotory environment and let these candidates expand upon their platforms..
    It has been too synthetic thus far.

  • freentn

    http://www.2012presidentialelectionnews.com/2012-debate-schedule/2011-2012-primary-debate-schedule/

  • wonkish1

    Running around saying the same thing 500 times to others on here. Redstate doesn’t have that huge of a regular posting base. You say something 10 times and most folks will end up reading it if they do read through comments.

  • Common_Cents

    I’ll always be skeptical of the candidates they don’t attack early on.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Nobody actually cares about those attacks, except a certain fringe. Because come on. Mitt Romney is going to be “tougher” than Perry? Please.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Those are the basis of site moderation.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    The big spenders in both parties (easily over 2/3rds) would just sneak some language in a big bill that everyone votes for like a defense appropriation, and the tax law would be amended to be only a simple majority.

    Then they subsequently raise the rates. Even if you think this is an unlikely scenario, do you wan to take a chance?

    If we can’t get rid of the income tax through repeal. then I don’t want any sales, or especially a value added tax, that would be a disaster.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Did you steal that Republican bashing list from Daily Kos?

    Some of us are trying to beat Obama. You are the fifth column aiding socialism from within our walls.

  • lineholder

    This is the internet age and it has become a very powerful media source. Question: If you wanted to try to control the narrative, how would you go about it?

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I see.

    OK that makes sense. You’re commenting on Cain’s rise in particular.

    Gotcha.

  • Rusty_S

    (oops, might be jumping the gun a little bit on that one.)

  • Finrod

    Rumor has it that Cain raised over $1M in the final 10 days of September, which doubled his fundraising total for the 3rd quarter.

  • explodinghead

    If it comes down to the convention and Cain does not have enough delegates to win, it seems likely that he will instruct his delegates to vote Romney. (He already said he would prefer Romney for VP, and he could not support Perry today as the nominee). This would probably be for the VP spot on Romneys ticket. Romney has the funds to go all the way to the convention, we should wait and see how Cain’s fundraising holds up.
    I am not at all sure that a vote for Cain in the primary will end up as a vote for Romney at the convention. I think somewhere Karl Rove is laughing.

  • center77

    Cain radio segments where he has called auditing the fed a dumb idea. His 9 – 9 – 9 plan is based on some sill assumption that the taxes will not just go up later, opening the way for huge tax increases.

    His words about Tarp when addressing the bank bailout as being government takeovers “But the mainstream media and the free market purists want you to believe that this is the end of capitalism as we know it. It is not for several reasons that they have conveniently not explained.”

    Twice Gain has endorsed Romney, once in 2008, and the other time while running for president (right or weird.) This alone is bad for Cain, why would an conservative willingly support Romney. I am having trouble telling myself to vote for him over Obama, because I do not want Romney to win so bad. He will damage conservative America bad. How can Cain support the guy.

    Perry is the only person that seems to stay with his position, and even though some do not like all of them, at least they never have to wonder what they are going to get.

  • jimmuy8

    on just about every issue? And he’s going to be our guy?

    I tell ya’ I just don’t get it.

    Why? Didn’t we learn anything from nominating McCain?

    Anyone want to make the case that Romney is more conservative on an issue than Perry? And no, speeches don’t count, show me actions where he has acted in a more conservative way than Perry has.

    Look, I know he’s “more conservative than Obama.” Some faint praise. So is Huntsman, Crist, Collins, Snowe, etc., etc. That criteria is the entrance fee, not the winning point.

  • center77

    a conservative president. I’ll be honest, I would almost rather have Obama win than Romney, at least this way the conservatives do not have to own Romney. We need a real conservative, but one that can win. Perry is the only one that has been hit with just about everything the left can hit him with. They are saving Romney’s garbage to throw at him during the general election if he win. Romney’s time at Bain capital was a job killer, but he runs on it, and the left is hoping they will get to run against him because they can nail him to the wall with it. This election is getting silly. Cain should not be where he is, and has been getting press from Fox, which will tare him down if he takes from their man Romney. I am sick already.

  • clintonformccain

    I don’t think Romney benefits much from the disenchantment of the red-meat base with Perry on immigration. The knee jerk response was towards Cain as the only blank slate left standing on whom they can project a vision of philosophical purity.

    I don’t actually think Cain’s support will last. until the snow flies in Iowa. He’s just the recepient of what is proving to be trial balloon support from an “antsy” base.

  • daddyman

    because otherwise nothing would ever change…..definition of insanity, right?

    even if the fair tax was to be passed, there would still be that same nightmare scenario you are concerned about. let’s face it, unless the tea party remains involved going forward (in perpetuity) we are in big trouble as a nation.

    the fair tax is not ever going to pass as it is not understood by the educationally challenged in our country….it is too easy to demonize the fair tax for this reason…….at least the 9-9-9 muddies the waters enough to confuse those poor lost souls. the fair tax is seen as a elimination of taxes on the ‘wealthy fat cats’ when just the opposite would be true.

    enough said?

  • freentn

    field with the possible exception of Paul on National Defense.

  • clintonformccain

    … but I’ll vote for him in November if that’s my choice. Heck, I’d vote for Charles Manson over Barack Obama and Mitt Romney is better than Charles Manson!

    Of course, Romney is not going to be a “conservative” President. He would be just conservative enough to avoid a primary challenge for a second term.

    I actually think that “the left” (i.e. Obama) is more afraid of running against Perry. Perry has the potential of pulling a lot of Latino votes.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    Look… case in point…

    The SAME week that I put my “You just might be a candi-bot” POST…

    Mr. Steve Foley, long time diarist and contributor of all things conservative wherever he goes… had his MUCH MORE IMPORTANT diary declaring his intent to Run for Office… fall off the Recommended Diaries list…

    That was a Damn Shame in my book… and it is indicative of what is getting parlance… don’t get me wrong… I was happy my diary was recommended, I’m glad it was appreciated for what it was intended… but the algorithm favors traffic and recommendations… I think Steve’s diary should be fixed on the front page for a week… as a reminder to all of us, that getting our nation back on track is about getting conservatives elected.

  • freentn

    is going on this Romney path of self destruction.

  • acat

    and I think he’s going to dent his hair on it pretty soon.

    I don’t see where Perry has a ceiling.

    The Cain + Perry support is the larger pie, so if either one steps on his {tongue} soon enough, it becomes the others’ game to lose… and Perry’s still the better candidate*.

    Mew

    * better at operating a campaign, better on the campaign trail, better campaigner, call it what you like. Perry’s been to the regional version of this rodeo before, and won. Mitt’s been to this one before, and lost. Cain’s never really been.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    Cain’s biggest obstacle is people say he isn’t qualifed to be president.

    People say Cain isn’t qualified to be president, because they don’t know his full background (which is pretty extensive and varied).

    The point of the “book tour” is to get the information out about his background, so he can convince people he is qualified.

    For Cain, the book tour is part of his campaign.

  • wonkish1

    I figured that he had a nice $1-1.5 pull in the last 10 days, but I figured that he had at least another $2 million in the 10 weeks prior to that.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    The fair tax would never pass because it has a stupid byzantine unworkable portion to it. However, if it did pass, part of the bill itself is predicated on a repeal of the income tax amendment. So there would at least have been no danger of double taxes.

    I am not for change just for change’s sake, our tax burdens right now are actually lighter than they have been in the past. The left wingers are at least correct about that.

    Believe me we can certainly make matter worse for ourselves if we are not careful.

  • lineholder

    been posted? I haven’t checked and just wondered if you might have more info.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    As in… insert fingers into the ears… and repeat at top lung capacity LA LA LA LA LA!

  • wonkish1

    nt

  • freentn

    into the lead among Conservatives if Perry doesn’t get his debate act together.

  • blogforceone

    Sarah Palin will be announcing in a couple of days. Most likely at the Glen Beck rally on Friday. Her attorneys are getting the paperwork together as we speak for the primaries. Thousands of reporters will then descend on Seoul So. Korea to see her speech on October 10th, 2011. Massive power move onto the political landscape by Sarah Palin.

  • renl57

    ….and then get upset when Cain doesn’t act or talk like a professional politician.

    Cain is supposed to be this fresh face, this outsider who can shake things up.

    But then Cain is also supposed to watch what he says? He spoke spontaneously, saying that the inscription on the rock was insensitive.

    Cain is a conservative–but he’s a black conservative who had encountered racial discrimination in his own life. And he’s still sensitive about that.

    If you want a candidate who weighs every word before he says it, support Romney.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    we have 2 more debates… and we have the opportunity to see some coalescing of conservatives against the Establishment…

    I am not fooling myself here… we have to work against the establishment to get to most conservative candidate…

    IF it can’t be done this year, then WHEN can it be done? Fight for what you believe… Fight for whom you believe in…

  • wennejunk

    Not that you are in any way.

    I just thought I could help define one of the boundaries (smile).

  • gekster

    what do you have to back that up with.

    She was going to announce at the Ames Straw Poll also.
    And by the end of September.
    More stringing along, or what.

  • bonnman

    will be a tough one. Romney just doesn’t motivate, he’s all surface and no substance, he just feels like he’s performing all the time.

  • bonnman

    Who do you think will jump in?

  • renl57

    Cain has been discussed in a lot of the major media.

    Searching for “Herman Cain” returns 7,000 hits on Google News. Including reports by the major TV networks, the AP, LA Times, Washington Post.

    Somebody is talking about him.

  • blogforceone

    Palin is a whole 5% behind Rick perry and Herman Cain in this poll. They are @ 14%, Palin is @ 9%. Who thinks those numbers will hold once she joins the fray.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    I did hear that it is heavy on the early primary states. South Carolina in particular.

  • gekster

    It would be an interesting read.

  • red_oakster

    We saw this with McCain last time around. When most voters decided neither Romney nor Huckabee were ready for prime time, enough defaulted to McCain to give him the nomination. I think we’re in the same world here, with Romney being the beneficiary. Had Perry debated competently, this race would be over. But unfortunately he didn’t.

    My own sense is that we’ll see at least one more entrant before this is over.

  • blogforceone

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65115.html

  • renl57

    Cain is a real conservative with a hard line on immigration.

    Cain has a fascinating resume.

    Cain is a magnetic speaker who has shown he can really wow an audience–unlike Romney.

    Cain has already rolled out a specific economic plan–unlike Perry.

    Yep, Cain should not be where he is.

    He should be ahead of the pack.

    A specific plan, a fascinating resume, a magnetic speaker.
    What else would you want from a GOP candidate?

  • blogforceone

    Is at the top of this article

  • acat

    That’s plenty of room for, as I said above, either Cain or Perry to step on his {tongue}.

    As I see it, this is a simple race. If either one does, the other’s the nominee.

    Mew

  • Jim Tomasik

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65115.html#ixzz1ZpoiN2w4

  • Whacker77

    If you’re running for president, run for president. Don’t take a month off the trail to sell a book. He’s off my list.

  • gekster

    another string along to get more doners to give some more up.

    I’ll believe it when I see it.

    Like they say, foll me once, shame on you,
    fool me twice, shame on me.

  • lineholder

    SC is just south of me. I’ll be looking for the dates.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    I really don’t think Cain would be as popular if there were other, better candidates available. But that’s me. Some people I talk to really like him and think his lack of political experience is a feature, not a bug.

  • Whacker77

    Don’t say I hate Republicans. That’s not fair at all. I have no love for the group of Republicans who chose to run for president though. It seems those who had a great chance to actually win chose not to run, while those who don’t have a chance did run. It makes no sense.

    There are a lot of great Republicans who could and should have run. How about Jeb, Rubio, Pence, Ryan, Christie, Jindal, Barbour, Thune, or even Sandoval and Martinez. Any of those people would have been great choices. Maybe Romney will outperform, but it’s a big risk.

    We did so well in 2010, yet we haven’t found a field in 2012 to match. I like plenty of Republicans and might even advocate my own Senator, Rand Paul, but the 2012 crowd is just bad.

    If you disagree, fine.

  • acat

    wait until the last possible minute to send these inquiries?

    Mew

  • freentn

    Client. That is Rule 1.6 (a)

  • ribeye

    I would put a lot of money on Romney. He has the money, name recognition, silver tongue, and the primary calendar REALLY favors him. Plus, the GOP usually goes with the next in line, and that’s Romney.

    I’m not a Romney hater, I actually think he’ll be formidable in a general election, but he’s going to be a very technocratic, milquetoast President. My guess is though he’s more conservative than the grassroots thinks he is, and on the issues important to the base like judges, repealing ObamaCare, tax reform, spending etc., he’ll be good enough. On issues like entitlement reform, probably pretty weak, but honestly, we’re already seeing Perry running away from “Social Security is a Ponzi scheme” to “both current and future retirees will see no changes”

    Cain has an outside chance, I really like him and think he connects with a lot of normally apathetic voters, but it’s definitely a long shot. Money and organization is just not there for Cain, and already I’m seeing some stumbles that make me queasy.

    Count me as one that’s disappointed in our field, just about every candidate is fatally flawed. I honestly think Romney is the only candidate running I would truly be comfortable that can take Obama out. Unfortunately our “big guns” drank the DC kool-aid and thought Obama was invincible when in reality the GOP has never had a wind at its back like this since 1980.

  • acat

    not why the most likely client is waiting until the last minute.

    Mew

  • freentn

    difference.

  • acat

    That’s … kind of insane.

    It also goes against unwritten rule of lawyers # 7, don’t ask a question you don’t know the answer to.

    Mew

  • gekster

    is why do it this way.
    If she is getting in, why the suspense.
    What is to be gained.
    The sooner the announcement, the more money raked in.
    Just doesn’t make sense.
    And why the drop dead date, and not announce and get slammed for it.
    Just doesn’t make sense.

  • Jim Tomasik

    Unless she suddenly had a change of heart because of what has been going on with the other candidates lately.

    Maybe she thinks she cannot do any worse than the current crop.

  • harpsichord

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65115.html#ixzz1ZpoiN2w4

  • acat

    Just sayin’

    Mew

  • Jim Tomasik

    and she’s a jerkin’ it.

  • westcoastpatriette

    and that was the crux of Erick’s parody last Friday. It is getting impossible to defend her reasoning so the only thing left is satire and drama as an emotive response. ???

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    I want him to do for the USA what he did for Louisiana!

    Oh, wait!

  • freentn

    question and I gave you the most simple, logical answer from a lawyer’s perspective. Since neither Palin or her lawyers have shared any confidential information with me, I do not know their reason for waiting to make an inquiry to the Elections Commission. It could be that they simply wanted to confirm their understanding of the Election Laws. Good lawyers cross their T’s and dot their i’s, you know?

  • clintonformccain

    And, what, pray tell, is a Glenn Beck rally on Friday?

  • Scope
  • clintonformccain

    is probaby Jeb Bush and I think he correctly surprised that the Bush brand is still poison.

    The rest of the “big guns” are simply not ready. There’s a generational transition underway in the Republican party and many of the young up and comers simply lack the experience and they are smart enough to not run for President in their 40s.

    Personally, I was disappointed that Haley Barbour didn’t get in the race, but I understand why he was probably not the guy this time around.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    She will get the immediate “new candidate” bump which will cause your zipper to be stuck in the down position for probably two weeks.

    What will happen is that she’s going to get vetted. And no, she’s not been vetted, she’s been personally attacked by the media but no one has really looked at her Alaska record – which you refuse to comment on – and her other “issues”.

    After a very brief honeymoon, she’ll be well below the 9% she’s at today. She won’t – and can’t – deal with hard questions and she’ll once again make a fool of herself if she tries.

  • acat

    You took a guess. That’s cool, but .. it’s generally good to point out that it is, in fact, a guess.

    And yes, lawyers also dot their lowercase j’s. Or, as one I did some typing for put it… “The words in this document have to match the original exactly. If a fly took a crap on the original document, you must get another fly and make it crap in the same spot on the copy.”

    So .. I get lawyers…. It doesn’t make sense, though, that the Palin campaign would be asking this late. They should already have this information.

    Mew

  • acat

    for why Buddy never appeared in Erick’s state of the horserace columns. Mr. McCotter got more ink from EE than Buddy!

    Mew

  • ribeye

    I’ll concede that some of the candidates haven’t been in office as long as I would like, but does anyone really think that Republicans like Chris Christie, Marco Rubio, Bob McDonell or Paul Ryan were say “less ready” for the Presidency than George W. Bush? It would also be nearly impossible for Obama to make that case since he came into office with so little elected experience.

    Jeb Bush is a non starter, it’s a shame because he is the real deal and would have been a much better President than W., but politics isn’t always fair.

  • nick2253

    In national polls of registered voters, Romney has been leading Obama.

    Also, don’t forget about Romney’s impact on Obama supporters. Because of his previous service in Mass, as well as his more centrist positions, many liberals may be fairly apathetic about getting out to vote for Obama. In their minds, it might be “yeah, Obama would be better, but it’s not like he was that fantastic, and Romney might not be so bad.” If a firey conservative, like Bachmann, were in the race, then that might motivate more liberals to get on board and rejuvenate the Obama machine.

    Also, Republicans are fired up right now anyway. With the entire grassroots conservative movement coalescing together around the “one term Obama” idea, I don’t see much of a need for Romney to pull the conservative movement together. Local conservative leaders will get people on board simply to ensure that Obama doesn’t get reelected.

    In other words, I don’t the Republican candidate’s job is to get the base fired up. The Republican candidate’s job is to not make a mistake, and it’s Obama that gets the conservative base fired up.

  • JSobieski

    and to get answers on the record.

    If someone wants to do something at the very last minute, I can see calling in advance and “asking” whether X date Y time is too late.

    There is law and there is administrative reality underneath the law. How a particular office would administratively process something in a time crunch is not something a lawyer can look up in a law book.

  • JSobieski

    of what the Republican party was doing nationally in 2002-2008. We are going to have the opposite problem in 2016 and 2020. We have a lot of great AAA players waiting for their day in the show.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    n.t.

  • rightwingmom52

    Book Tour Schedule here

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    the administrative process is more in control of events than the actual legal process which is typically pretty cut and dried. If lawyers are going to go shopping for wiggle room they generally do it very early so they know what their options really are. Doing it this late in the process pretty well eliminates most options and certainly all of the good ones.

  • acat

    This is about the time he’d disappear for 3 months straight.

    Printing ballots takes time. There’s a finite number of presses, and the number of different ballots that have to be printed, each requiring an amount of time, takes clever planning and a lot of late nights to get all of them done on time.

    It’s also cheaper for the munis that have to *pay* for those ballots if they can order early so .. while it’s not technically too late for Palin to get on the ballot, it wouldn’t surprise me if her lawyer was told “Late filing fees will apply”.

    Mew

  • freentn

    i.e., Palin and her lawyers have not shared their secrets and confidences with me so of course my answer to your question is merely an educated guess.

  • rightwingmom52

    becker’s dead cat? When’s the money bomb?

    BYW, acat, I don’t know any lawyers who would say U or Y in liieu of you or why, do U?

  • txpat

    been talking about the red flags?
    They are to busy tearing down Perry to work on him yet.
    I am sure they will get to him soon.

  • JSobieski

    in the election process.

    Some of the recount provisions in Florida 2000 come to mind. A lot of election laws end up being impossible to implement. Kind of like when Congress required all shipping containers to be inspected upon entry to the US. Its the law, but its administratively impossible.

  • carolina

    Besides, we have a lot of important Gov, Senate, and House elections to focus on also.
    We need to get more conservatives elected throughout the govt. We need to get past a critical mass.

  • freentn

    no lawyer wants to be sued for malpractice because they failed to ascertain a date certain. So it may very well as you say, JSobieski, that the case on point may very well been a case of lawyers simply doing due diligence.

  • freentn

    considerations are FAR MORE IMPORTANT.

  • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

    nt

  • Whacker77

    No, he never was on my list because he never showed he had the capacity to build a national fundraising network or national campaign network.

  • freentn

    That is, on the bottom of my list just above his Pal Romney.

    Mark Levin says he won’t vote for Romney unless he is the LAST Republican standing.

    The Great One Levin is now trashing Romney, gotta go listen.

    http://www.marklevinshow.com/sectional.asp?id=32930

  • gekster

    You are all over the map.
    You must be the second shift guy.
    The first shift guy said that he would never vote for Cain because of the rock flap.
    You guys have to start exchanging notes to keep up with each other.

  • Jim Tomasik

    Edf

  • lineholder

    *

  • liberal_lurker_2012

    It is not surprising that the best and most articulate GOP candidate in recent memory is a Morehouse Man.

    I like Cain, we can whip the GOP into shape. He doesnt take any BS!

  • Jim Tomasik

    jlt

  • freentn

    http://www.politico.com/2012-election/

  • snowshooze

    The sound of reason. A true and fearless leader of men.

  • lineholder

    Rock and the hard place since then. Don’t want to blow it out of proportion. Ends up hurting us if we do.

  • trutexan

    so he better hope he doesn’t win it. If he is the nominee, they can put the race card back in the coffin where it belongs. And the “underdog” card…

    While I like Cain’s no-nonsense local message, he’s not yet ready for primetime. The WaPo will DESTROY him and he will eventually end up sharing woe-is-me Tweets with Clarence Thomas.

    Nobody is taking Cain seriously – he’s a fluke and distraction away from Perry & Romney. This race is all about Perry & Romney. And Romney is a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. Perry is our guy and I’m sticking by him until the end. We Texans tend to do that.

  • snowshooze

    You still remember the last election, I am pretty sure.
    My cranky old Uncle has these words of Wisdom..
    ” People are stupid ”
    Anything goes.

  • blaze422

    triangulating…and If he passes Perry and is seen as a serious alternative to Romney, I think Cain might be angling for VP (with his endorsement for Mitt. )
    Everyone has Marco as the running mate regardless, I just think Cain has a shot. FWIW

  • Raven

    ObamaCare? Nevermore
    Raise taxes? Nevermore
    Regulate businesses to death? Nevermore
    Support illegals? Nevermore
    Tolerate terrorists or those who support them? Nevermore

    I think I could pull it off.

  • Raven

    Final consumer? How do you define that? How do you enforce that?

    This is where the “Fair” tax, national sales tax, and “Value added” tax are all identical.
    Everytime money changed hands for a good or service, there would be a cost increase in the form of tax.

    By the time you by that box of cereal, you are paying 30-50% more just in sales taxes to the Feds.

  • nick2253

    Even if the Conservative movement had a physical manifestation, and that manifestation was nominated and eventually elected, it wouldn’t do any good if the House, Senate, and state governments aren’t on board.

    Personally, I think the most important elections in 2012 are not the presidential election, but the Senate elections (and to a lesser degree, the House elections). Even if Obama were somehow reelected, a conservative Congress could force his hand.

    Right now, he’s using the Congress as a shield for not doing anything, allowing the House and Senate to do the real fighting and grunt work. If faced with a unified Congress, Obama would have no choice but to kowtow to many important points. If we force Obama to veto legislation, then we force him to be explicitly against policies, rather than take no stand on policies that he lets the Senate kill.

  • freentn

    http://www.wsbradio.com/news/entertainment/newstalk-wsb-program-schedule/ncjn/

  • freentn

    the Campaign Trail.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2011/1003/Herman-Cain-leaving-the-campaign-trail-Why-now

  • ihavehadit

    If Perry would come out and tell the modertors at the debates he was not going to answer any more nonsense questions, he was only going to talk about getting this country back on its feet and proceed to do just that, the audience would go wild. As far as that idiotic poll done by the Washington Post is conserned, all I can say is it’s a push poll to hurt Perry. Does anyone at that rag paper really believe we are a bunch of brain dead zombies? They put out a hit piece one day on Perry and then a few days later they put out a poll showing Perry even with Cain????? Well, as Cain would say, That dog won’t hunt.

  • freentn

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20115655-503544.html

  • freentn

    nt

  • nick2253

    Don’t forget that polling shows that Cain is the most popular #2 choice for both Romney and Perry. Especially since (as acat pointed out) people like to pick winners, if they think that Cain could be a winner, much of Romney’s support could flock to him. That’s even more so given the tepid support that Romney enjoys from his “round 1″ supporters.

    In this race, a lack of political experience isn’t a handicap. Cain is clearly an intelligent guy, and as his fundraising numbers go up, as they inevitably will due to these poll numbers, he’ll start surrounding himself with more experienced people.

    Also, Cain is the only candidate in this race that has two substantive soundbites that resonate with voters: 9-9-9 plan and the Chilean Model for Social Security. I was talking to my heavily pro-business dad last night, and in just a few minutes, I hooked him on Herman Cain. The same can’t be said of any other candidates. Considering he was a Romney supporter originally based on his business credentials, I see others making the switch when they realize another pro-business candidate could clench the nomination.

    Lastly, Cain is the perfect mix of Establishment and Conservative. Socially, he has solid conservative credentials, and though I don’t agree with all that, I see how it resonates with the base. This makes him an ideal #2 to Perry.

    In the business world, Rick Perry just doesn’t hold a candle to Mitt Romney. I’m sorry, but it’s true. His service in Texas was admirable, but Romney was right: when dealt a great hand, it’s hard to lose (now, I don’t think Perry got 4 aces, but that’s another story). Herman Cain, on the other hand, has been a CEO, and made a successful business, and does know a thing or two about the private sector. He may not have been as successful as Romney, but he’s at least established himself as a business man that understands jobs and the economy.

    In my mind, Herman Cain is the perfect compromise candidate. Maybe not quite as conservative as Perry, or quite as business savvy as Romney, but he’s got more than enough of both. Plus, he carries that outsider image that helped so many in 2010.

    Lastly, and I know this is a huge elephant in the room, Cain is black. For too long, liberals have used the mantra that conservatives are racist to continually keep black voters fearful of checking R. If Cain is the candidate, not only could he capitalize on the black vote, he could finally change the image about conservatives and the Republican Party. In all honesty, I think Republicans in general are more tolerant of race than Democrats, who continually insist on making race an issue, and it might just take Cain to show Dems that truth.

  • freentn

    Organizing for BoHillary to get their talking point memes.

  • lineholder

    /

  • snowshooze

    It is a poll.
    We watch them.
    We talk about them .
    There ain’t much we can do about them.
    And it is really hard to say if they are worth much.
    Personally, when they call my house wanting to know my opinion, I ask them what it is worth.
    ???
    I say yeah, you are getting paid to tear up my time and I am the guy with the product you want… so what are you willing to pay me for my opinion? Nothing…it is a poll?
    So you think my time is worthless?
    Get lost. click.

  • nick2253

    I’d have to cast my vote for Mitch Daniels.

    But in all honesty, I can’t image who else might run, other than Palin, perhaps.

    I wish the GOP would stop complaining about the current candidate set, and let us get on with our primaries. With 9 major candidates, there’s enough for everyone:

    Romney: Establishment, pro-business, strong business experience, somewhat centrist
    Perry: Establishment maverick, hardline conservative, some business credentials, strong government experience
    Cain: Political outsider, pro-business, strong business experience, southern conservative
    Paul: Establishment maverick, libertarian, heavily pro-market
    Bachmann: Establishment maverick, hardline conservative
    Santorum: Establishment, hardline conservative, bipartisan experience
    Gingrich: Establishment, strong government experience, somewhat social conservative
    Huntsman: Establishment, pro-business, business experience, strong government experience, centrist
    Johnson: Establishment, Libertarian, strong government experience, bipartisan experience, strong business experience

    I can’t believe that not one of the candidates can do it for us.

    I know this might be sacrosanct, but I was watching the Daily Show, and John Steward had a bitingly accurate criticism of the Republican Party’s demands for the candidate. Our party seems to be a collection of opposites, and in that way, Romney might be the best candidate, because he’s willing to be whatever you want him to be.

  • lineholder

    I may have to copy this and keep it next to the phone. Thanks.

  • nick2253

    but was that sarcasm or legitimate praise? And I’ll be honest: I’ve never seen the [nt] acronym before.

    If it was sarcasm, what exactly do you disagree with? I totally understand that not everyone is on-board with a Cain nomination, and I relish the chance to defend my chosen candidate from actual criticism. If we have a good discussion, one of us might come away with a different view of our preferred candidate–who knows?

    I know that I don’t know everything about Herman Cain, and if there’s something he’s done to deserve disrespect, then I’d want to hear it. If I’m clinging to a false ideal, I’d hope people would be kind enough to point out where I’ve gone wrong. Like my grandfather used to say, “if you want someone to believe you, you have to teach them why you’re right. You can never tell them why you’re right.”

  • freentn

    Erick does a great job of analyzing the political reality.

  • lineholder

    Is this your first time posting on RS? If so, then welcome.

    nt is an acronym from a prior system here at RS. It means “no text”. It’s something that we used in the title line to show that there was no text to follow in the comment block.

    You’re going to get a lot of different opinions about all of the candidates. I’ll leave it to you to determine which ones are valid and which ones are not.

    So far, Cain is my first choice. I respect what he has been able to accomplish and achieve with his life. I appreciate his viewpoint on our nation’s future. I still have questions on points of policy that he supports, and by no stretch of the imagination do I believe him to be perfect.

  • ihavehadit

    I totally agree, Perry can pull this whole thing out if he will just take a page out of Christies book and lamblast the media and the moderators at these debates and simply refuse to comment on these idiotic stories. Do like linholder said, then tell the moderators he is going to talk about how to get this country back on it’s feet and then proceed to do so, even going beyond his time limit like most of the rest of them did. The crowd will go wild. Also this nonsense poll is just that a nonsense poll. Does anyone really believe any of us conservatives out here fell for that???? The WP puts out a hit piece on Perry then two days runs a poll showing Perry even with Cain?? Well as old Cain would say, “that dog won’t hunt.” Also remember Cain wants to do away with the recent Supreme Court Decision confirming our second amendment rights. Cain wants it to go to the states and local governments. We fought long and hard to get that decision to keep the states and cities from depriving us of the right to own a gun and he wants us to loose that right. No peole Cain is not the conservation you want him to be. He is a big government Republican who wants to empower the inner cities with tax breaks and more money. He told Bret Bear that was the second part of his economy plan. Is that what you want??? It’s not what I want.

  • gekster

    means no text in the comment box.
    It lets posters know that the whole comment is in the title box.
    Nothing more, nothing less.

  • freentn

    major Polls!

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-1452.html

  • nick2253

    Yeah, I’ve not been posting here for too long. I’ll often read the diaries, and I’ve noticed that many of the comments are quite snide and sarcastic. Though obviously not all of RedState is like that.

    The reason the [nt] confused me is that, on other forums I’ve used, an (NT) meant something like “No thanks” as an expression of sarcasm, satire, or irony, in order to ensure the viewer got the writer’s meaning. So yeah, I meant no offense, and I hope you can see where I was coming from.

    I’m glad you liked my post, and I hope I can continue to constructively contribute in the future!

  • txpat

    We will see how the moderators push to cause conflict, very little time on substance.
    I heard wapo will be moderators in this so expect rock comments and trying to get Perry and Cain to fall in the trap again.
    All the while Mitty will be smiling and looking Presidential.

  • freentn

    to live up to that billing in the Debates. That is REALITY as evidenced by the Polls.

    Not only that but Perry has FAILED to respond to the Mitt Cain false smears. No Press Conferences. No Ads. No Response. NOTHING!

  • explodinghead

    First,let me say, I don’t work for the Perry campaign. I have been trying to do my own research on Herman Cain, as I did not know a whole lot about him. I found this article that was written in 2004, when apparently Cain was runnng for Senate . I don’t know if the site is a liberal site or not, maybe someone more knowledgeable could enlighten me.
    The article goes back to 1995 and details changes in Cains opinions, and differences with Conservatives, for example: “Cain opposes school vouchers for private schools and backs efforts only to ‘revisit,’ not eliminate, affirmative action. He declined to give his position on abortion rights. In the primaries, Cain’s moderate social stances could pose problems.”
    The article also goes on to say that “Cain is a charlatan on a number of Republican issues, as evidenced by the record of his own statements with the afore-mentioned newspaper articles, his support of Steve Forbes, and his slap at then-candidate George W. Bush in 1999.”
    The article compares his positions with Mac Collins, and Johnny Isakson other candidates (R) for Senate.
    Please read it for yourself and let me know if the site is credible. If there is information out there that shines light on these and other differences in Cains beliefs and Conservatves then I want to know.
    We know Romney changed viewpoints to be electable, and Perry is getting the full anal exam. Let’s know if Cain has anything to hide or not. I’m sorry I don’t know how to link to this article, but here is the address:

    http://politicalvine.com/news/newsview17514.html

    The article was linked to from :http://christiancitizens.org/herman_cain_for_president.html

    If anyone knows about this or the site it’s linked to from let me know if they are credible sources;maybe it won’t even matter to most of you who have already decided to vote for Cain, but I want to know what I’m getting into before I give someone my vote. Thanks.

  • freentn

    Lion’s Den!

  • snowshooze

    Oh..polls are reality.

  • Leon H. Wolf

    It’s not us, it’s you. If you think you’re capable of not being an idiot anymore, hit the contact form and we’ll consider unpunting you.

  • unclefred

    You fail to understand how deeply unpopular Romney is among rank and file Republicans. He seem’s stuck at between 25%-30%. So between 75% and 70% of Republicans would prefer someone else. If Romney manages to get the nomination, virtually all of these voters will vote for him, myself included, but they really would prefer a different choice.

    Romney has been running since 2007. Unless he is the last man standing he has the segment that he is going to get. If Cain can convince the party that he is electable, he’ll pass Romney in no time. Now that is a big (huge?) if, but I’d hazard a guess that if the people who frequent here thought that Cain was electable and were given the choice of Cain or Romney, Cain would enjoy overwhelming support.

    Time will tell

  • gekster

    so long.

  • lineholder

    And remember that Cain is my first choice, I don’t work for his campaign, and I believe that each individual has to make their own choice about who they support as candidate. (This is starting to get ridiculous, isn’t it?)

    politicalvine is a site that deals in satire. That’s the information from their “about” page.

    http://politicalvine.com/politicalrumors/about/

    as to the other site, I’m not sure how valid their information is. When I came across the following comments, I wondered how much the preference for Ron Paul might have influenced the article.

    “He stands diametrically opposed the fundamental positions of pro-liberty candidates like Ron Paul.”

    “Cain is pro-war and appears to be pro-Empire”

    Lots of mentions of the fed and gold standard.

    I don’t want to encourage you to write it off. If you find multiple articles substantiating this, then it might be something significant that needs to be brought to light (and I hope you will)

  • Doc Holliday

    troll on troll. Freentn vs. California Gold, a bit surreal.

  • snowshooze

    The posts occaisionally had some points., but today he must have recieved a bad shipment…

  • gekster

    ntntnt

  • txpat

    To not flip his convictions.
    I don’t agree with him on everything, but on core issues he is where I want him to be.
    Some folks don’t realize he worked hard to get companies to move to Texas.
    I believe he would work just as hard to get companies to move back to America.
    He will need to bring his A game to next debate, and not take any flack off of Wapo.

  • snowshooze

    And I do have fun with the idea that he has to translate everything he says from Texan to English first…and that is the reason for his halting responses…
    But Rick seems pretty sharp to me.
    Lions? They ain’t but big ‘ol puddy tats.
    Yea scratch right here..under their chin…prrrrr…
    Acat?

  • lineholder

    Irritating, yes, but hilarious all the same.

  • Doc Holliday

    .

  • bonnman

    and any lead is narrow and probably within the MOE so I still think that the base needs motivation. I’m sure all republicans will vote for Romney over Obama but they might note donate to the campaign or volunteer for him and that will hurt. If Obama claims the underdog position and couples it with a broad populist movement, occupy wall street is now aligning with labor unions, then they’ll have momentum that Romney might not be able to counter.

  • lineholder

    freentn, californiagold, and porkandcheese ( the last one at least had a sense of humor in there somewhere) Guess the last one left on their own. This is a tough crowd at RS.

  • powertothepeople

    my favorite mod. Not that being my favorite mod counts for much, but one day it will be worth gold. )

  • gekster

    And you listen to friendly advice.

    (yeah, I know. I’m one to talk).

  • lineholder

    all that racially-inflammatory nonsense freentn was spouting off last week was the worst.

    BTW, gekster, congratulations! I crown you the greatest tin foil hat distributor of all times.

  • Doc Holliday

    but the leaders here are kind, they want to be sure.

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    leaves tossed up, winds now
    south then north o! north then south
    now winds up tossed, leaves

  • gekster

    To be honest, the stupid thing was more about me then him.
    Thanks for the title, but I would rather stay the site/village idiot.
    It’s easier for me to handle.

  • acat

    It happens.

    Mew

  • Doc Holliday

    and if they want freent to posts 70 times a day, I guess that is ok with me. I know for a fact California Gold was up to know good, I could show you the comments, but won’t.

  • rightwingmom52

    No respect, except that Rodney was funny at one time.

    Sorry I’m late to the celebration. Had to work late and then drive home.

  • Doc Holliday

    no rough edges here.

  • snowshooze

    My tin foil hats are by far more sophisticated. I have the Viking, with horns, the breeching Dolphin and of course, the Sattelite dish, and of course… the Majestic Moose.
    But I don’t just hand them out to all comers. Oh no… they are far too precious. I kinda find it hard to part with them..
    No disrespect for Gekster though, don’t waste a piece of artwork on a common oaf…

  • lineholder

    http://www.redstate.com/dhorowitz3/2011/10/04/attrition-through-enforcement-immigration-policy-works-in-alabama/#comment-4361

    Someone in Mobile with info about the immigration in AL

  • Remington_Steele

    I really like Herman Cain, but 9-9-9 has been mentioned by others as a stepping stone to the Fair Tax. What’s irritating is the fair taxers think if you’ve read the whole Fair Tax site, then you must understand it’s greatness and saving graces.

    I have gone through the site, I have analyzed my taxes. I think it stinks for me and yes, I vote with my pocketbook. The criticism inevitably comes that my math is wrong or I don’t account for inherent savings in the product pipeline. Sorry fair taxers, I’ve done my math, I’ve read the whole site. No matter how “fair” you think it is, it stinks for me as my burden to the government is more under the fair tax than I have now. Tax code needs to be reformed and fixed. I personally would like my taxes to go down, not up.

    PS, I’m well off, but not rich according to the Fox News debate definition.

  • lineholder

    I think we have another one.

    http://www.redstate.com/wonkish1/2011/10/04/polls-here-are-the-actual-results-of-3-new-state-polls/#comment-231

    Wait and see, I guess.

  • lineholder

    LOL, if I could have found you at the time, I’d have let you do it. But gekster was here, it was late, we both knew what was going on, so he came up with an alternative.

    And it served it’s purpose as far as I’m concerned.

  • runner12

    Freetnt or whatever his name is was highly irritating. We should all send you a thank-you note and some flowers for ridding us of his presence.

    On more than one occasion, I thought this poster had an ulterior motive.

  • lineholder

    of the same type re: freentn. But can I ask you a question? When we get operatives/trolls, that’s sort of a taboo topic that no one is supposed to talk about, right? Or at least that’s been my impression so far.

  • gekster

    Everybody loves cute.

  • Doc Holliday

    and of course things change over time. But the way I read it, it is encouraged for “readers”, (you and I) to not point out trolls. Many moons ago I would tell a possible troll I expected them to not last long, and my record was pretty good. I did not do it for fun, just a normal reaction to what I was seeing. But I gave it up, things change.

  • lineholder

    maybe you could just put up a picture of a troll! I won’t you knight you for it if you do. I promise.

  • lineholder

    Any other site/speak alarms that serve as a head’s up?

    It’s bothered me quite a bit these last few days, having a pretty good idea of what freentn and a few others were up to but having no idea of how to let other people. No idea of what the boundaries might be, whether it’s allowed, whether it’s encouraged, yet not wanting to see others get played and not seeing wanting damage done when there’s no need for it to be.

    Just elements of personal conscience, I guess, and not knowing what my options were.

  • conservativemusician

    Reading freentn posts was getting pretty irritating. Not sorry at all to see him go with his obviously transparent trollish posts.

    I believe the moderator from the Billy Madison movie also may have had freentn posts in mind when he stated the following:

    “What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.”

    Hope he doesn’t try to sneak his way back in under another name.

    P.S. Thanks Leon

  • lineholder

    !

  • explodinghead

    Thanks so much lineholder. There is so much out there and I’m new to the whole internet thing. The first site was a Christian site which linked to political vine, so I guess I got snookered by the link. Appreciate the heads up. Information is power, but only when it is honest and can be verified,

  • Leon H. Wolf

    Here’s a friendly suggestion – try to remember the good mood you’re apparently in right now the next time you decide to take it to eleven on a bunch of other commenters and mods here.

  • Doc Holliday

    I think I gave you the correct info as best as I can give it. It is not unheard of for people to call someone else a troll, but it is best to be sure, particularly if they have been around a while. I seem to remember on night where it was said by a moderator that to do so would be bannable. But at other times, it has not been. Maybe if you are really angry at a likely troll, just type “Hinz Rule” as your comment. It basically means, don’t feed the trolls, AKA don’t reply to their gibberish.

  • lineholder

    #

  • Doc Holliday

    I am quite fallible, I said I would drop it with that mod and meant it. I have taken my share of hits, and gave some back. But I try to be fair, even when I fail.

  • lineholder

    Trust me, I’ve learned quite a bit of the same the hard way. And I’m not nearly as good at it as some other folks here are. Maybe someone else will chime in as well.

  • gekster

    On your suggestion, I found a bunch of trolls who want to go to work.

    They wanted to give an audition.
    I couldn’t say no.

  • gekster

  • aesthete

    Well, that and our better governors seem to have TKOed themselves through various statements and actions: Sanford and Daniels would have been natural fits for the Presidency, and Johnson just comes off as too weird during the debates for some people for him to have been able to sell his message and candidacy convincingly.

  • Doc Holliday

    and quite a few of those commentators went on to blam land. But thanks for embarrassing me for no reason, I certainly needed it.

  • runner12

    That quote sums up freentn’s comments perfectly.

  • lineholder

    +

  • lineholder

    hear that Beach Boys song again without thinking about this!! And remind me never, ever to vacation at Kokomo!

  • Doc Holliday

    Rubio and Jindal should have gone this time. And if people think their appeal is race, they really have no clue. Right now I think Romney either has to get a lot better or we will be dragging Perry across kicking and screaming, and those are the victory scenarios.

  • Doc Holliday

    but I know he is where he wants to be, he is a legislator. Most Senators think they should be president, it is nice to see one that thinks he should be a Senator.

  • lineholder

    be your first personal choice and why? Mine would Jindal.

  • snowshooze

    http://youtu.be/kNYKxiRJ2LA

  • Doc Holliday

    I think he is a bit more polished and ready for the national stage. I realize many fear losing a Senator, but governors matter a lot too, just not as flashy. Heck, a Senator is really just one vote, a governor can enact an entire agenda if he plays his cards right.

    Maybe these guys are young, but I am really not impressed by the generation on stage.

    Tell me why you think Jindal would be best, even though we know it wont happen.

  • gekster

  • lineholder

    Jindal’s not eloquent in terms of speech, I agree with that. But I think there’s a lot more to the man than meets the eye. He’s had uphill battles to contend with during his time as Governor of LA and he’s managed to succeed in serving his state relatively well. They respect him because he’s earned their respect, Doc. With everything that’s occurred, that in itself speaks volumes.

    Plus, when it comes to Constitutional law, the man is darn near brilliant.

  • Doc Holliday

    I like Jindal, that is why I said I wished he would have run. His time will come.

  • rightwingmom52

    freentn might have a split personality or be 2 or 3 people. Never imagined there were this many involved.

  • lineholder

    so I took that just a bit too literally, did I? We’ll see if his time comes. Problem is Americans tends to fall for flash over substance (sort of like choosing the wrong man type of scenario). If that’s all they’re looking for…well, we’ll see.

  • rightwingmom52

    Of course, he’s cast a vote here and there I didn’t agree with, but he’s a good man and a good Senator. Whoever the next GOP President is should try appointing him to be a judge again. I think he’d make an excellent Supreme.

  • rightwingmom52

    Do you have a wish list like Moe does?

    BTW, love the tag line. Still wishing for a movie or return of the series.

  • nick2253

    I think you overestimate his unpopularity.

    Furthermore, I don’t think your argument is that convincing. No candidate has done as well for as long as Mitt Romney. By your logic, I could argue that, for any one of the candidates, between 70 and 90% of Republicans would prefer someone else.

    Also, you’re underestimating the appeal, or should I say strength, of the other candidates. In 2000, the only two candidates worth pursuing were Bush and Dole. During her heyday, Mrs. Dole was securing around 20% of the vote, to Bush’s 45%. Even by February of 2000, when Dole had dropped out and McCain (McCain!) was rising in popularity, Bush couldn’t get more than about 60% of the Republicans.

    In this contest, we see something similar. However, instead of two strong candidates, we have four. Yes, four. As much as you all may whine and pout about Ron Paul, he’s been slowly rising in the polls, and much of his support comes from arguably the most fervorous portion of the electorate. He may not have super broad appeal, but libertarians tend to break with the Republican party 2 to 1, so there are a large number of Libertarians, both inside the party, and out, that could boost Ron Paul’s campaign.

    Based on this latest poll, we have 68% of the electorate on board with one of the top candidates. This compares favorably with the 2000 election, where about 65% (give or take) were supporting either Bush or Dole. When Dole dropped out of the race, and before McCain became popular, we saw Bush’s numbers go up to about 65% percent. In short, he captured most of Dole’s support. In this way, Romney really isn’t riding very poorly. As a top tier candidate, in a field with many strong candidates, his performance is as expected. All we’re going to see is a reallocation of this 65%.

    I call this reallocation a “self fulfilling prophesy.” Basically, there’s a large group of the electorate that wants to vote for the winner (like you are saying), no matter what. The candidate they vote for then becomes the favorite, and wins, so they win. The problem we have here is that there is no clear winner, so this vote is divided between the top candidates.

    We saw that, when Perry entered the race, not only did he sap life from the Bachmann camp (pulling in value voters), he also pulled in a bunch of support from Romney. I argue that this support was not value voters, but people who wanted to support the winner. Now that Perry is in the tank, this “winner vote” is being sent to the next big name, Herman Cain, with part of it returning to Romney.

    The key, basically, is that, in order to win, you must be seen as a winner. Romney has been doing that for a long time, and that’s what gives him the edge. No disrespect to the Perry crowd, but I never felt Perry came out being a winner, other than the winner that the media made him when he first announced. With all of his defensive talk over SS, immigration, and his book, he never was able to prove that he was a winner, and so the winner voters left him. I think his ideological core is still in tact, but without winner voters, he can’t win.

    Cain, with his win in the straw polls, is being a champ about appearing a winner. He’s had the message for a long time, and now he’s aggressively tapping into the voter psyche to show everyone how he can be the victor. Given the media hullabaloo over Cain right now, I think he’ll have quite some time in the limelight to show everyone how he’ll do it best.

    Now, if Cain fails, then where do those voters go? You’re probably right when you say Romney. However, that doesn’t mean anything. I know a lot of people who support Romney right now, and do so ferverously, but that doesn’t mean Romney is unpopular with the rest of the people.

    Romney is, at best, a tepid #1 choice. However, that doesn’t mean that he’s unpopular. And given the makeup of the field, he’s sitting about where you’d expect given the strength of the other candidates.

  • rightwingmom52

    . . .
    .

  • nick2253

    I mean, this election is all about the economy, right? So let’s dispense with the “nominate someone with broader appeal as VP” nonsense.

    How much stronger an economic message could you send then Romney/Cain or Cain/Romney? And could you image the trouncing that Cain would give Biden during the VP debates!? Oh, it would be great!

    I think that Republicans need to send the message: Economy, economy, economy! Romney/Cain or Cain/Romney does just that.

    The only downside would be if a national or foreign disaster happened during the campaign. That would make domestic safety and foreign policy immediately important. Unfortunately, there’s really no one in the Republican field right now that can lead on those issues.

  • nick2253

    You assert that FairTax would increase your tax burden. You then assert that you’ve done your math correctly and you’ve accounted for every variable. I challenge you to prove it.

    Provide us with your math and your calculations, and then we can show you where you’ve gone wrong. Or, if there are no mistakes with your calculations, and we are indeed raising the tax burden on the average person, then I’d be the first person to jump ship and help convince the FairTax people, and all their supporters, why they’re wrong.

    However, I studied tax law in school, and I would consider myself a knowledgeable person when it comes to the tax code. I’ve done my own math. And I’ve done the math for my parents, and my grandparents. FairTax would be a huge benefit to me and my entire family.

    The only thing I could think of is that you are one of the many Americans who consumes more than you take in. In other words, you grow your debt every month, every year. With such high levels of spending, it wouldn’t be surprising that FairTax does you harm. However, you don’t seem like that kind of person to me.

    Please, if you really believe that FairTax is wrong, share your data with us! I’d love to be proven wrong (I mean, how else do I learn!)

  • Doc Holliday

    hence all the problems we have :)

  • rightwingmom52

    .
    .
    .

  • Doc Holliday

    better :)

  • nick2253

    about FairTax before you trash it.

    First off, FairTax is not a VAT. Only certain sellers would be required to collect FairTax. Used goods, for example, would not have a sales tax. Exchanges of raw materials would not have a sales tax.

    Only in a VAT do you add a tax whenever money changed hands.

    Secondly, FairTax does expect about a 30% sales tax-exclusive rate (which is how current sales taxes are calculated). However, an individual pays around a 23% tax-inclusive rate, which is equivalent to the 30% tax-exclusive rate.

    However, you are now paying the tax based on consumption, and you get to keep, should you choose, 100% of your paycheck, not 77% of it.

  • nick2253

    but I think you are forgetting the desire for people to vote for winners. If people think Romney can win, then he’ll get support and win.

    A self-fulfilling prophesy at its best (worst?)

    I don’t think that the Tea Party has lost the mantle of “Broad populist movement” yet.

    Also, in polls, Romney is doing much better among independents than Obama is, which is where the real fight is.

  • aesthete

    that there will be an embarrassment of riches for conservatives to choose from come 2016: we have lots of governors with great potential who so far are doing well, and I would really like to see one of them run.

  • jkines

    a vote against entitlement reform. and a vote against tax reform. From the moment Romney took the mantle of welfare state apologist and defender of the taxation status quo, I decided that I would never vote for him regardless of the circumstances. To do so goes beyond a mere violation of principle, descending into blatant hypocrisy. Quite frankly, a choice between Romney and Obama isn’t a choice at all.

  • JSobieski

    Questions is to get them on the record in advance

  • JSobieski

    Nt

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    when Leon escorted freentn to the phantasmal realm.

  • redmymind

    So, I hear the “mighty,” “make-or-break-a-candidate” Tea Party is withdrawing its support of Governor Perry because, amongst other things, they don’t particularly care for his stance on in-state tuition rates for children of illegals in Texas.

    I personally don’t think there is any other candidate out there that comes even close to Governor Perry as far as a solid record of job creation and leadership, not to mention the stark contrast he provides to the present occupant of the White House as far as policy, ideology, and sheer character.

    That said, I sure hope those fleeing the Perry camp know what they’re doing by supporting someone else whom they apparently see as a “truer” conservative. I hope, for their sake, that this other person does have a realistic chance of winning the GOP nomination and the general election next fall.

    Otherwise, they might as well just save their precious energy and directly endorse Governor Romney–whom they admittedly don’t care for very much (and for all the right reasons and suspicions)–because that’s precisely whom they are endorsing by rallying around and flirting with a lesser candidate in a bout of knit picky petulance.

    If Governor Romney or President Obama wins, in-state tuition rates for children of illegals in Texas would be the very least of their worries.

    It therefore seems quite foolish to me to bail on the most qualified candidate and realistic choice for U.S. President just because of a few differences on the issues and hick-ups in his debate performance.

    The fact that Governor Perry has stuck to his principles whilst being singled out and targeted by his competitors at every corner ought to tell us a little something about his manly character and refreshing sense of genuineness.

    I’d much rather have someone like this running the country in these perilous and uncertain times than some polished, slick-talking debator who practically worships his clever-sounding zingers and one-liners as much as he does the sound of his own voice. Remember, we already have one in the White House today, and where has he gotten us?

    So, perhaps it’s time to mature a bit and take a good, hard look at the big picture, rather than act like spoiled and impulsive brats easily startled and scared away by the slightest sign of adversity or discomfort.

    The likes of opportunistic Governor Romney and the liberal drive-by media wouldn’t have a chance if we all rallied around a solid, proven conservative with the best chance of winning in 2012 and, incidentally, bringing about the real change we all desire. Right now, that’s not exactly happening.

    The way I see it, the very wrong candidate is being set aside and scorned, with those fearing him the most having the most to gain. How smart is that? Let’s just say I’ve seen greater loyalty exercised amongst liberal democrats who evidently know how to stick together for the sake of the big picture.

  • Change Jar Conservative

    To say that “a choice between Romney and Obama isn’t a choice at all” is simply naive.

    Do you think Romney would be attacking Boeing for moving business from one state to another?

    Do you think Romney will put extreme liberals on SCOTUS?

    Do you think Romney would be trying to ruin Gibson guitars?

    Finally, keep in mind that this is a Republican site. Conservative in the primary, but Republican in the general.

  • davidshedlock

    I think that Huckabee would instantly move into second place, and it would be a two-man race.

    http://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2011/10/is-the-gop-really-stuck-with-mitt-romney-or-why-we-need-a-william-farel/

  • circlegranch

    The tea party movement, which put alot of strong conservatives in office, such as Rubio, seems to have lost its footing in the presidential race. State by state in ’10, they were courageous enough to hold the ground and get their candidates elected (except in a few states) but now on the national stage and in trying to face down the mighty liberal media, they’ve gone weak-kneed. As a tea party member, the very people that stood with me at April 15 gatherings the past few years are all crumbling and settling for Romney. The only reason he’s the so-called ‘most electable’ is because the tea party has lost their courage and they are falling prey to the advice of the Dick Morris’ that get plenty of face time on FOX. The tea party members in the House will lock horns with Romney on the first issue. Back to business as usual………..

    The ‘Anybody but Obama’ theme is great but shouldn’t we have been strong enough to not settle and make sure that the Anybody ending up in the WH lined up toe to toe with stauch conservativism? ‘Most Electable’ ends up also being ‘Most Entitled’ because it was his turn.

  • circlegranch

    The tea party movement, which put alot of strong conservatives in office, such as Rubio, seems to have lost its footing in the presidential race. State by state in ’10, they were courageous enough to hold the ground and get their candidates elected (except in a few states) but now on the national stage and in trying to face down the mighty liberal media, they’ve gone weak-kneed. As a tea party member, the very people that stood with me at April 15 gatherings the past few years are all crumbling and settling for Romney. The only reason he’s the so-called ‘most electable’ is because the tea party has lost their courage and they are falling prey to the advice of the Dick Morris’ that get plenty of face time on FOX. The tea party members in the House will lock horns with Romney on the first issue. Back to business as usual………..

    The ‘Anybody but Obama’ theme is great but shouldn’t we have been strong enough to not settle and make sure that the Anybody ending up in the WH lined up toe to toe with stauch conservativism? ‘Most Electable’ ends up also being ‘Most Entitled’ because it was his turn.

  • dudette

    my favorite type….

  • wonkish1

    2nd lets just face it we weren’t able to put up someone like a Rubio, a Haley, a Walker, a Kasich, etc. to run. There weren’t many people like that around before 2010.

    Sanford threw it away. George Allen had his Macaca moment and lost his Senate race ahead of 08. Coburn, Demint, Daniels, etc. decided not to run.

    So you really can’t blame your friends to much. It is just as much them not wanting to go with someone else as it is the failure of other great candidates to get in the race. And this is coming from someone that is at least reasonably content with the choices we have.

  • Leon H. Wolf

    If you want to continue this discussion, I guess. I certainly wasn’t trying to embarrass anyone.

  • bzip

    per drudge report

  • wonkish1

    I have to hand it to Perry’s team. They have been able to keep that from being leaked very well.

  • tyman

    That’s huge! Only 49 days?

    If Perry can translate that into debate performances and strong campaign ads, maybe he does know what he’s doing.

    I’m a Perry supporter, and have thought that these attacks on him are terrible. Once others see the kind of cash he’s hauled in, I think it will show people that he really is in it to win.

    It’s sad to see the Tea Party support erode for now, but I think they’ll come back because Cain is going to have a money problem. When Cain has to suspend his campaign, and then endorses Romney, I hope that by that time Perry will have made Romney look like a local Democrat running for City Council.

    What did Mitt Romney do to get elected as Gov. of Mass.? I mean, seriously, what was his campaign like and what did he run on?

    Look at the top of Rushlimbaugh.com…under the caption of “Don’t let the media pick our candidate”…there’s a picture of, none other than, Flipper himself.

    After the attacks that Romney has pulled on Perry by misrepresenting his positions, yeah, I’d say it’s kind of personal. I don’t like to see anyone, especially a fellow Republican, get dragged through the mud like that. I know it’s politics, but let’s save that kind of mess for Obama.

  • bzip

    I believe there is a strategy behind Perry?s campaign. Coming into the race with such high expectations – perhaps he intentionally lowered the bar because I don?t think anyone could have lived up to the enormous expectations they had of Perry right before he entered the race ?

  • gunslingr45

    won’t ban him for being in the tank for Cain? That’s good news for me. Because every day I read redstate I think I’m in Perryland.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    I always get to miss the fun…

  • wonkish1

    Any who. Thanks mods!!

  • comeridethewhale

    The bankers run both parties. The nominee will not be Cain. The Republican establishment wanted Christie or Daniels or Jeb Bush but they wanted no part of it so the nominee will be Romney. Next year’s election will be between Tweeleedee vs Tweeldedum as it always is unless Ron Paul runs as a 3rd party.

  • comeridethewhale

    The bankers run both parties. The nominee will not be Cain. The Republican establishment wanted Christie or Daniels or Jeb Bush but they wanted no part of it so the nominee will be Romney. Next year’s election will be between Tweeleedee vs Tweeldedum as it always is unless Ron Paul runs as a 3rd party.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    this guy is a raving idiot.

  • wonkish1

    They wanted Clinton on the Dem side and Giuliani on the GOP side. Guess they did pretty that year didn’t they?

  • wonkish1

    nttt

  • hoosierchristian

    There are five conservatives, two moderates and two libertarians running in this election. No Palin, no Christie and no Huckabee. We have three months before votes start to count for something. Time for us conservatives to start winnowing the field of five, even if the candidates themselves are going to stubborn persist.

    The press will gleefully continue to speculate about potential latecomers in their tired maxim of this being a “weak” field. I would take the current field of candidates over any of the past several decades. But it’s time conservative Republican voters to start saying goodbye to some of the people we may have been flirting with so we can really focus on the most viable conservatives in the race.

  • Finrod

    Reportedly a larger proportion of his contributions were from small-dollar donors, which is good for him because small-dollar donors won’t have hit the maximums and can give more in the future.

  • wonkish1

    I wouldn’t be worried if I was a Cain supporter. But wow his pre Sept. 25th fundraising was just terrible then.

  • tyman

    I don’t think Perry intentionally flubbed the debates.

    However, in his first debate, he had spent the time previous to that at his day job (something most of the other candidates don’t have).

    The next debate, I think he did alright. Until he got ganged up on.

    The worst debate, I think his back was really hurting.

    I’ve wanted to go ahead and pick a nominee so that we can unite the party behind him.. But, as Erick has pointed out, that once we have the nominee the LSM and Obama will go after him..

    I sincerely hope that Perry is preparing for the debate and we’ll see someone that is focused. Perry has had to do everything all at once: fundraising, campaigning, debating AND being CEO of the world’s 4th largest economy.

    It’s obvious that the LSM has ganged up on Perry because they really are afraid of him. against BHO (mmm, mmm, mmm).

    I guess we just have to be patient. Give Perry a good debate and some strong ads, and I think he will be a much more attractive candidate.

    I still think that Perry is the only candidate that can rally the evangelicals, and I think that is one of the reasons McLame lost in ’08 (he couldn’t rally them).
    Don’t discount the evangelicals. You may not like it, but that’s why Bush won two times!

  • jkines

    that I lose my capacity for thought in lieu of a collectivist herd mentality more befitting Mother Jones. In point of fact, we should encourage the opposite. In any event, to carry the conservative mantle in defense of a champion of the income tax, an apologist for the entitlement state, and a disciple of second amendment infringement is hypocrisy of the highest order. I will not settle for electing a candidate just because he has a (R) by his name on the ballot. Any rational approach demands a more rational critique than vapid cheerleading for a statist rhino.

  • gekster

    And why.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    ..

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

  • http://www.redstate.com/thesophist TheSophist

    to be called a candi-bot, despite a lengthy diary I’ve posted outlining what I think are Cain’s road to victory as the second-choice between two irreconcilable camps…

    Why, thanks Neil. Appreciate the incisive engagement on the subject.

  • http://www.redstate.com/thesophist TheSophist
  • http://www.redstate.com/thesophist TheSophist

    If Perry has another poor debate performance, or another gaffe on the order of “heartless” on the trial, he could very easily slip to third.

    In which case, he becomes the kingmaker. There’s little doubt that Perry’s organization is awesome. I’d personally love to see Perry’s campaign staff and his organization wedded to Cain to take on Romney. (But that’s likely wishful thinking, heh.)

  • jaykali

    I think he has better broad-based appeal with the general electorate. Romney is the only candidate you can’t case as a ‘Tea-Party’ extremist. Certainly you will get conservatives voting in mass for ANY republican candidate bc we all know the stakes.

    So if I can’t get someone I really like I will go for the winner most likely.

    I want to see how we can put together some kind of grass-roots deal to get Marco Rubio on the ticket. I will be very pleased if we can get him in there as the heir apparent.

  • izoneguy

    Rubio will never get on board with the likes of a Romney or a Cain.
    That just won’t happen – it is not in Rubio’s DNA, he is much smarter than that.

  • izoneguy
  • kyconservative

    If you’re “kind of ok with Romney at this point” then you had better be “kinda okay with an Obama second term at this point.” I can promise you that should Romney become the GOP nominee then (a) Marco Rubio nor any other conservative with be his VEEP and go down with the ship; and (b) huge numbers of conservatives will either stay home or vote third party leaving Obama in the White House despite his 40% approval

  • kyconservative

    If you’re “kind of ok with Romney at this point” then you had better be “kinda okay with an Obama second term at this point.” I can promise you that should Romney become the GOP nominee then (a) Marco Rubio nor any other conservative with be his VEEP and go down with the ship; and (b) huge numbers of conservatives will either stay home or vote third party leaving Obama in the White House despite his 40% approval

  • richp89

    what are the 5s about. Is that the symbol for agreement? I know in the radio communications world fivers meant five by five meaning that the person listening could hear and understand the transmitter loud and clear.

  • lineholder

    )

  • richp89

    I was going to jump in about the same points but you probably argued the case better than I would have. As for changing the 999 plan with future Congresses, this is done now with the current tax plan. It is not a new threat exclusive to this plan. I believe Cain’s intention is for the 999 plan to be a precursor to the Fair Tax to allow time to repeal the 16th ammendment before the fair tax is completely in place and to get people use to a national sales tax. The fair tax has a safeguard in place that nullifies the Fair Tax if the 16th ammendment is not repealed within 4 years (I think this is the correct number) of the Fair Tax being enacted. The fact that plans like the 999 plan and Fair Tax repatriates foreign money, brings new businesses to the states due to more competitve pricing (the prices of exported goods do not include the tax), increasing the revenue base by including illegal immigrants and criminals who do not work is worth the risk that the are business as usual to see if they are better, The other option is to spend another 98 years saying that the tax system needs to be reformed while at the same time sinking every other plan out there. It kind of makes me think about the saying “if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem”. In other words if you are going to say plan A or plan B is wrong and by the way the current system is wrong then what alternative do you offer?

  • carolynr

    I’ve listened to Romney for a while…and when he wants to avoid a question or doesn’t have a “good Conservative” answer…he stutters. Check it out.

  • mspector

    nt

  • nick2253

    The argument that 999 would be corrupted by politicians is the EXACT SAME threat we face today with the current system. What’s to stop congress from saying, “umm, your tax rate should now be 50%!” other than the will of the people? Nothing. It’s up to us, not Congress, to ensure 999, FairTax, or even our current tax system, doesn’t get corrupted by politicians.

    I think the FairTax is nullified 7 years after passing, not four year, if the 16th amendment isn’t repealed.

    For me, when you break down the benefits of a consumption tax, it’s obvious how good it is:

    1) Foreign tourists will help pay for the American government. I mean, how awesome is that!? We can take advantage of our status as one of the world’s most popular tourist destinations and “trick” foreigners into paying for our government! I don’t see how Democrats couldn’t be on board with that one. We’re no longer just targeting our own citizens, we’re targeting foreign visitors as well! Bwahahah!

    2) American goods sold abroad won’t have embedded taxes jacking up their price. This will allow the US to be much, much more competitive on the global stage. No longer will our manufacturing costs include income tax, corporate tax, capital gains tax, FICA tax. Instead, those goods can be sold for their real value. And in a country that charges VAT, like Germany, American goods will only be subject to those taxes, not both US and foreign taxes.

  • jkines

    Gary Johnson is, ideologically speaking, the candidate who is closest to my own beliefs. Even then I don’t agree with him on every isue, Al Awlaki for example. However, I am under no delusion that he has any chance of getting the nomination. Therefore, I am supporting Herman Cain. I have some disagreements with Mr. Cain, on immigration policy, social issues, and elements of foreign policy but on the majority of the issues we are of like mind. Furthermore, I think Cain actually has a chance at the nomination, and is the best candidate of those with a realistic shot at the nomination. As a libertarian republican I am more than willing to compromise with social and national security conservatives towards a common end (to clarify I am not a doctrinaire isolationist like Paul but neither am I a full scale interventionist).

    However, the issue I refuse to compromise on is the integrity of the free market. Before Romney commenced becoming an apologist for the entitlement state and an opponent of tax reform I could have supported him, but that, for me, was the line I simply can’t cross.

  • ihateliberals

    This is more like a three legged dog i a race. If Obama gets dumped and a halve way strong Democrat is put in his place not one of the three of these guys has a snowball’s chance in a blast furnace of winning. The problem is that we will hve nominated one of these characters before the DNC dumps Obama. They will want to see who best to run against them.

  • Doc Holliday

    I will take your advice as it wans intended, You say it was friendly, that is enough for me.

  • Raven

    Let’s take metal items, for example:
    Is the “raw material” just the ore? Or is it the smelted metal? Or the refined metal? Rough-cut metal items? Any of the steps in-between?

    At what point does the tax start getting applied? How many times over will taxes be paid on my silverware?
    I am going to pay tax on it. The store I purchase it from will pay tax on it from the distributor who will also pay tax on it from the manufacturer.

    Even if it goes no further than that, which will depend on your explicit definition of “raw materials,” I have just paid 120% tax on my silverware. An item that currently costs me $1 will now cost me $2.20. Minimum.

    And That’s assuming it doesn’t pass through any more hand in the process.
    Small stores that get their supplies from Sam’s Club, for example, will cease to exist overnight. Overstock type stores will also be forced out of business.

    Sorry. It’s a VAT because, in the end, you can’t define or regulate “end purchaser,” and the only way to avoid it being a VAT is to Only tax the end purchaser. Even trying to define it by “raw materials,” as you see, ends up taxing far too many levels.

  • richp89

    Fairtax.org FAQs

    What is taxed?

    The FairTax is a single-rate, federal retail sales tax collected only once, at the final point of purchase of new goods and services for personal consumption. Used items are not taxed. Business-to-business purchases for the production of goods and services are not taxed. A rebate makes the effective rate progressive.

    Fairtax.org FAQs

    SEC. 102. INTERMEDIATE AND EXPORT SALES.

    `(a) In General- For purposes of this subtitle–

    `(1) BUSINESS AND EXPORT PURPOSES- No tax shall be imposed under section 101 on any taxable property or service purchased for a business purpose in a trade or business.

    `(2) INVESTMENT PURPOSE- No tax shall be imposed under section 101 on any taxable property or service purchased for an investment purpose and held exclusively for an investment purpose.

    `(3) STATE GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONS- No tax shall be imposed under section 101 on State government functions that do not constitute the final consumption of property or services.

    `(b) Business Purposes- For purposes of this section, the term `purchased for a business purpose in a trade or business’ means purchased by a person engaged in a trade or business and used in that trade or business–

    `(1) for resale,

    `(2) to produce, provide, render, or sell taxable property or services, or

    `(3) in furtherance of other bona fide business purposes.

    `(c) Investment Purposes- For purposes of this section, the term `purchased for an investment purpose’ means property purchased exclusively for purposes of appreciation or the production of income but not entailing more than minor personal efforts.

    I am not sure where the confusion would be.

  • richp89

    “From the Fair Tax Bill”

  • jaykali

    I think you are not connected to reality, people can’t stand Obama. If you want to argue Romney is a RINO, fine you can make that argument but people are not staying at home. And conservatives are not stupid enough to vote for a 3rd party again in the post-Bush 41 era.

  • jaykali

    I am going to vote for whoever is the Republican nominee but I would be real thrilled if it’s not Rubio. I don’t see who else Romney could put on the ticket with him other than Cain maybe since they have a good relationship.

  • jaykali

    I want to win above all else. I really hope Rubio gets the VP nod (even tho he has denied that he would accept). I would be very pleased if he could be the understudy in the white house. I can’t think of anyone else who’s Reagan-esque that is in any kind of political position right now other than Rubio.

  • kenchely

    If the party nominates Romney, Rubio will support him. If it nominates Cain, he will support him. It’s quite simple. Anyone who refuses to support his party’s nominee is dead in the water if he wants to run for the nomination in the future. Consider Nelson Rockefeller. He didn’t support Barry Goldwater in 1964. Come 1968, though he was the Republican governor of New York, he couldn’t even make a bubble in the primaries; he was typically getting about 15-20%.

    Marco Rubio has a very good chance of being the GOP nominee for President one day–in 2016 if next year’s nominee loses, in 2020 if next year’s nominee wins. If he refuses to support the nominee, that will not happen. So he will support the nominee.

    Nobody in this race is a RINO; they range from a moderate conservative (Romney) to a hard-Right candidate (Bachmann) and a couple of libertarians (Paul and Johnson). In between are mainstream conservatives (Gingrich, Santorum and Cain) and a guy who’s kind of hard to categorize beyond being right of center (Perry). Other than Paul, I can’t see anyone whom Rubio might not support–and Paul has no chance of being nominated. Paul is the sole exception because of his comment about 9/11, which ensured that he will never even be taken seriously again.

    If he had a chance, I’d be for Santorum, but he has no chance. At this point I’m for either of the Georgians, Cain or Gingrich.

  • nick2253

    I don’t think this economics business is going to last much longer. By the time 2016/2020 rolls around, we should be sitting high(er) economically, and the whole “private sector” appeal should be wearing down.

    In that environment, Rubio is a perfect candidate. He’s best served by continuing his service to Florida. If he can get Florida’s support for his presidential run, then he could easily take the nomination. Furthermore, at such a point in time, his Reagan-esque domestic policies and foreign policies will likely be a much more important factor in the race. At such a time, tax policy might also be a big deal. (unless, of course, something happens in 2012). Usually, tax changes occur during times of economic prosperity, not economic malcontent.

    I like Rubio a lot, but I honestly hope he doesn’t get into the 2012 elections, because that will only strengthen him come 2016 (assuming we lose in ’12) or 2020.