For Religious Minorities in the Middle East – With Friends Like Obama, Who Needs Enemies?!


From the diaries.

President Obama has an amazing ability to make Jimmy Carter’s foreign policies look good.

Opposition to imperfect allies and support of radical Islamists has resulted in the almost-extinction of religious freedom for religious minorities – from the Copts in Egypt to the defenseless women and children who were slaughtered in Homs, Syria – in the Middle East.

Another example is the devolving situation in Iraq.  President Obama was so committed to fulfilling an arbitrary campaign promise to get our troops out of Iraq that he ignored the advice of his senior military officials about the consequences of establishing a firm withdrawal date and about how long it might take before Iraq was ready to manage the situation on their own.  As a result, Al-Qa’ida is resurgent, Iran’s influence is greater than ever, religious tensions between Sunni and Shi’a are increasing, the existential threat facing Iraq’s indigenous minority communities has never been greater, and our ability to affect the situation there is weaker now.  Recent coordinated car bomb attacks are just the latest in a string of such events since the start of the new year, and they portend many more violent assaults to come.

The departure of our military forces has once again left a security vacuum that is bound to be filled by someone, and all those with the means to vie for that space will do so, whether Sunni insurgents, terrorists like Al Qa’ida, security forces controlled by the ruling Shi’a political establishment, and in parts of the country even Kurdish Peshmerga.  These machinations undermine institutionalizing the rule of law, protecting minority rights, or developing the economy and infrastructure, let alone advancing American interests in that country and the region.

The most vulnerable people in this situation also happen to be the ones most aligned with our values and interests.  These are Iraq’s besieged Christians – the Chaldeans, Assyrians, Syriacs and Armenian Orthodox communities.  The role their faith has played in developing their worldview is far more in keeping with America’s values than any other constituency in the country or the region.  Moreover, because these communities have an ethic that places a premium on education, entrepreneurship, and peaceful co-existence and respect for others, they have constituted a disproportionately large part of the upper-middle class, they have historically contributed far more to the country’s economy than their numbers would suggest, and they have been the most trusted elements of Iraqi society.  They also have a much greater respect for the value of the rule of law, they were the ones who came along side our military, diplomats, and contractors to provide translation services and cultural advice.

With the departure of our forces and the recent announcement of the Obama Administration that we will also be reducing our embassy staff by 50 percent because it is now too dangerous for our diplomats there we are effectively abandoning both Iraq and our investment there as well as the communities who risked the most to help us in that effort.  What is more, walking away like this also sends messages to other players in the region.  It signals to potential allies in the future that we are not dependable.  It signals to terrorists that if they just lay low, they can wait us out.  It signals to the world that we no longer have the resolve to see a situation through to the end – that we can’t finish what we started.

We need all the help we can get in that part of the world, and Iraq’s Christians are the ones most inclined to provide that help, but not if doing so is only going to increase the prospect of their genocidal annihilation.

Accordingly, we need a comprehensive policy aimed at preserving these communities in Iraq.  We need to focus on helping Iraqis create the conditions that incentivize staying in Iraq and making there a better future for themselves. The last thing we want is for them to abandon the land their ancestors have occupied for nearly 7,000 years,forsake the culture they have preserved in that volatile region for all these millennia, and deprive the country, the region, and the world of the positive contributions they could still make if only some space was created for them in Iraqi society.  These people – who are all but canaries in a coal mine – represent hope for a better future for a pluralistic Iraqi society.

First, they need security.  By “security,” though, I mean more than just safety from terrorist and insurgent attacks.  I mean they need the means to protect themselves and their own communities so they do not have to depend on political actors whose interests are not necessarily aligned with the needs of their own communities.  They should not be subjected to political shakedowns and corrupt political machinations. 

Second, they need political empowerment.  They have the right to some degree of self-determination and to have a say in how their local communities should be governed.  It is wrong for them to be treated as a political football, constantly crushed between manipulative forces that surround them.  

Third, they need economic development in the region where they now find themselves.  Having been forced off their ancestral lands in the last century, they reestablished themselves in the cities such as Baghdad and Basra.  In the aftermath of the second Gulf War, though, they have had to seek refuge back in the North again.  Yet this region was not developed very well under Saddam’s regime, and today’s Iraqi Christians are disproportionately of the urban professional class rather than farmers.

It is time that we stand with those who stood with us over the last 8 years.  We must not abandon them.  I will stand with those who stand for freedom of religion and conscience and against violent jihadism and persecution of religious minorities in Iraq, Egypt, and elsewhere.



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238 Comments Leave a comment

So as President, what steps would you take, Mr. Santorum to implement these objectives?

civil truth (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 8:32PM EDT (link)

…keeping in mind, of course, that it’s still 10+ months to inauguration.

How do you plan for the U.S. to provide security, political empowerment, and economic security when our current administration by its actions has irrevocably signaled that we no longer will maintain a significant physical presence in the Middle East/North Africa.

Once the Administration discarded a bipartisan policy of at least half a century, how can repair that damage with respect to countries that measure time in decades and centuries, not 4-year election cycles.

It’s a terrible position you or any new President will have to face. And of course the Iranians may well have conducted a nuclear test by then, in which caw we would have an arms race in progress.

Finally, what kind of realignment in relations with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan do you see that will advance these goals?

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

Yeah, this makes me queasy

wantthegopback Saturday, February 25th at 12:38PM EDT (link)

I support Santorum. But this feels a lot like smoke being blown up me bum. Save it for the general, we don’t need it here.

I’m a punk. Email me at ryantboyd@me.com

 
 

Iraq is lost - Isn't that what Harry Reid said?

izoneguy (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 9:00PM EDT (link)

The democrats never supported Bush on Iraq. They don’t care about Iraq or Israel or peace in the middle east. Their goals are to get oil prices so high so that they can keep the green slush fund going. The US government takes a larger share from every gallon of gas then the oil companies could ever dream of.

Let’s get rid of Obama. Support Israel and let the rest of the middle east blow themselves to Kingdom Come.

Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged

 

This is where the "Christian Nation" should

jamesm (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 9:19PM EDT (link)

support other christians. This president’s policies are a conduit for the rise of Islamic governments across the mideast. We are seeing the effects in Libya, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Tunisia and now Syria. Muslims massacre christians across Africa and the Middle east. What has he done? Bows to a muslim king, pressures Israel, embraces Tayyip Erdogan the leader of Turkey (“The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers…”) and promotes policies against the Catholic Church. Thank you Senator Santorum for your post.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

No.

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 9:59PM EDT (link)

Do you know how many countries are actively oppressing or subjugating their Christian minorities? A lot more than we could occupy. If you want to protect Christians abroad, send money to missionaries so that they can buy small arms to defend themselves, or pressure the government to accept more religious refugees — both are more feasible than waging scores of wars in which we try to tamp down religious fanaticism that has had hundreds of years to boil.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

We should not occupy anything. But

jamesm (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 10:57PM EDT (link)

we should stop the christian genocide caused by these Islamists will not stop. Christians as a whole have done nothing to support their brethren who are getting their heads chopped off. Christians are being killed just because they will not convert to Islam. I would support giving them the means to defend themselves. Under Obama he is not even speaking out.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

The means to defend oneself

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:23PM EDT (link)

against a military with tanks, planes, etc controlled by Islamists is either an army of equal or greater power, or angels. We can’t just mosy down to Walmart and buy a handful of AR-15s, and expect Christians in Egypt — less than a 1/10th of the populace without military training or control of the military — to do anything but make militant Islamists laugh.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

The Coptic Christians are defending themselves

jamesm (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:47PM EDT (link)

but are under attack. What just hang out until they are all murdered or displaced? No. You cut off all military and economic aid as a first step. You put increasing pressure to stop the genocide. Whatever it takes to stop the genocide. Same in Sudan. Same in Nigeria. America stood by and did nothing. The islamist goal is to turn the whole world Islamic.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

We could offer them political asylum

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 12:03AM EDT (link)

and pressure our allies to do the same — I, for one, would be very comfortable with entrepreneurial Christians escaping from oppression and coming en masse to live in a country where they will be safe and free. That sounds a lot cheaper than the long-term occupations and bloodbaths implied by your strategy — interlopers don’t have a lot of success when it comes to stopping ethnic and sectarian hatreds that the aggressors have been nursing for centuries.

I have no intention of allowing “conservatives” to convert the armed forces into the Peace Corps with guns.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

 
 
 

does it bother you that your prescription goes directly against What Jesus teaches?

kyle8 (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:55PM EDT (link)

How do you square the teachings of Jesus with getting a gun and defending yourself from those who persecute you for the sake of the gospel?

Jesus taught to turn the other cheek, to pray for your enemies, and to be a martyr if necessary. It is a very hard teaching to follow, but nevertheless, it is all a part of being a christian.

“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle

kyle8, don't buy the leftist garbage that turning

demsaresatanic Saturday, February 25th at 4:29PM EDT (link)

the other cheek means let yourself be killed without fighting back.

Lots of times, that's exactly what it means

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 4:43PM EDT (link)

unless you’d like to offer another explanation for the way that the early church responded to martyrdom.

Of course, Christian principles aren’t neatly transferable beyond the individual and voluntary level, so this principle may not apply so readily to governments and such.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

aes, right, and Christians used to burn other Christians at the

demsaresatanic Saturday, February 25th at 4:59PM EDT (link)

stake for having different viewpoints, do you advocate following that precedent as well. The early church was wrong.

Refusing to fight evil is to enable evil.

Those were not concurrent periods

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 5:28PM EDT (link)

nor were they the same people, and I would point to Christ’s life and that of the early Apostles as proof that there are non-violent ways of fighting evil. IMO, the early church’s non-violence was a much better example of New Testament Christianity than the various crusades or other ostensible attempts to protect Christians through the use of violence.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

aes, "those were not concurrent periods" is obvious

demsaresatanic Saturday, February 25th at 5:45PM EDT (link)

and beside the point, which is that church doctrine does not equal correct doctrine. Taking pieces of the NT in isolation without application of common sense leads to absurd conclusions, such as the idea that somehow Christians should lay down and allow themselves to be killed.

Methinks that

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 6:08PM EDT (link)

the example set forth in the Acts of the Apostles and by our Savior and doctrine regarding giving up of rights is pretty authoritative for the individual Christian. Certainly, there is more scriptural evidence in the New Testament supporting a pacifist position than there is for a militant Christianity.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

aes, you are welcome to think whatever you like,

demsaresatanic Saturday, February 25th at 6:17PM EDT (link)

I don’t see much point in speculating as to what you mean by “militant Christianity” or in repeating myself.

 

So defending against evil is "Militant Christianity?"

jamesm (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 7:05PM EDT (link)

Your strawman argument is completely without biblical justification. Christians are not called upon to be pacifists in the face of evil. Quite the contrary. So Jesus was acting like a real pacifist when he overturned the money changers tables in the synagogue? No..he was pissed off. Jesus was a real pacifist when he confronted the Jewish authorities over their teachings throughout his ministry? I won’t begin to get into other parts of the bible. The book is one. Creating a strawman (Militant Christianity) does not advance your contentions.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

No.

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 7:26PM EDT (link)

Going to war and compelling such because of sectarian affiliation and a presumed connection with a group of fellow sectarians in a tight spot is militant Christianity. I’m not a pacifist, nor do I think that it’s compelled in the Bible: however, there is much more evidence for a purely pacifistic Christianity than there is for a militant one as I’ve described. For every New Testament verse that even implies violence in any way, there are five in the Gospels and Epistles that demonstrate submission to one’s neighbors and the authorities.

Suffice it to say, Christianity in no way has scriptural backing for a jihad-like defensive war as implied in your original post.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

Let's untangle this ball of yarn

jamesm (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 8:07PM EDT (link)

First you persist with your strawman “militant christianity”. Defending oneself from jihadist intent on murdering christians is defense, not “militant christianity” Either you have a complete misunderstanding of Islam or there is some intellectual dishonesty. If you are Jewish or Christian you need to defend yourself in many of these countries. Who backs a “jihad’? Another strawman erected and knock down. The issue is to stop the genocide of Christians.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Do you know what a jihad is?

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 8:30PM EDT (link)

It is a conflict intended to protect a group of Muslims who are being oppressed or forbidden from practicing their religion (at least, in theory). This definition is very similar to what you suggest the US engage in. There is no support for such a doctrine in Christianity, and no compulsion for a “Christian nation” to support such a policy.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

Unreal.

jamesm (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 10:04PM EDT (link)

You equate Muslim jihad (offense) with Christians having the ability to defend themselves from this jihad. Defining these as similar is illogical. This is nothing more then propaganda. Yes..Christians will defend themselves.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Failure to Exercise Reasonable Defense

greeneyeshade (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:31PM EDT (link)

Of yourself isn’t martyrdom, it’s suicide, also covered under “thou shalt not kill”. The early martyrs were thrown to lions. There was no possibility of self-defense there.

-Greeneyeshade-

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

So turning your cheek to get your head chopped off?

jamesm (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 5:58PM EDT (link)

Don’t think that Jesus was only a “Teddy Bear”. He is a Grizzly Bear also.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 
 
 

With how many countries die the American people form a star spangled purple-fingered bond?

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:18PM EDT (link)

http://archive.redstate.com/blogs/gamecock/2006/sep/30/the_star_spangled_purple_fingered_bond_the_left_cant_sever

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

 
 

The US is a Free Nation, not a 'Christian Nation'.

Dave_A (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:08AM EDT (link)

Even though we have a majority-Christian(-in-name-only) population.

And we should not allow religion to intermix with our motivations when engaging in warfare..

Islam will influence the government of majority-Islamic nations…. There’s nothing wrong with this, and so long as these nations do not support terror, it’s not an issue for us to be concerned about.

We are not at war with Islam, and the purpose of the last 10 years of fighting was NOT to weaken or remove Islamic influence. It was to destroy terror groups who, although they happen to use Islamic rhetoric to promote their cause, are chiefly focused on gaining land & power for their leadership.

In both Iraq and Afghanistan, some local Muslims are our strongest allies AND others are our enemy, at the same time…. ‘Holy War’ rhetoric does us no good, at any time.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

"We are not at war with Islam"? Really?

anotherindyfilmguy (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 1:54PM EDT (link)

You’re technically correct in that our stated war aims are against “terrorists” who are actually active militant arms of islamic sects.

However islam is at war with us and everything not islam and sometimes with stuff we’d call islamic but faction whatever of islam calls heretics etc.

We seem to have the liberals cry over any genocide/oppression that comes along unless it’s against christians and then wrangle their hands over any solution that involves the use of force against force.

Which is it going to be? Let christians be slaughtered so no force has to be used and only intervene when muslims are being slaughtered? I for one and sick of the way our foreign policy is being consistently mishandled to the long term detriment of everyone.

Razz Etc!
“Best Poker book written ever!!!” – Author’s unbiased opinion…

There are a billion muslims in the world

haners Saturday, February 25th at 3:17PM EDT (link)

No, we’re not at war with Islam, because we would never win this war with no objective. Do you intend to convert every muslim?

We are not at war. Islamists are at war

jamesm (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:26PM EDT (link)

with Western Civilization. Read their book

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 
 
 

Christian nation refers to the people that believe

jamesm (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:22PM EDT (link)

that Jesus is the Son of God. Yes we are a predominately Christian country. Yes there are muslim apolgists. Yes the koran is the antithesis of the bible. Your rhetoric on this issue is wanting for a clear understanding of reality.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 

Dave A, Islam is at war with freedom as well

demsaresatanic Saturday, February 25th at 3:53PM EDT (link)

as Christianity, the distinction you draw makes no difference in the result.

 
 
 

Sen. Santorum, I'm going to respectfully disagree...

MacAoidh (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 9:34PM EDT (link)

…because I think the ship has sailed for the Iraqi Christians.

We had the opportunity to protect them when we were there. We no longer have that opportunity. Our troops are gone, and with them went our influence in that country.

We won the war in Iraq, and Obama gave away that victory. All that is left for the Christians in that country is subjugation and genocide.

The only opportunity we have to positively affect their situation is to bring them here. Which we should do with open arms. That goes for Christians in Egypt as well.



Check out MacAoidh’s commentary on Louisiana and national politics at TheHayride.com

I was trying to be more diplomatic

civil truth (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 9:45PM EDT (link)

…to see if Mr. Santorum had a way to address the kinds of concerns you express here.

As they say in refereeing, presence lends conviction. We have exited the pitch. I don’t what influence we can have on protecting the players we left behind.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

It seems to me the Senator answered your concerns

jamesm (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 10:04PM EDT (link)

“we need a comprehensive policy aimed at preserving these communities in Iraq” It’s clear that he would develop such a policy.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Wow.

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 10:13PM EDT (link)

I guess good policy just develops magically. It’s not like voters need details about said policy to make informed decisions about that kind of stuff before a major election.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

Watch this, guys:

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 10:21PM EDT (link)

I will end poverty in America. How? I will create a comprehensive policy aimed at poverty in America. Details to come!

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

Gnat. Yes a gnat

jamesm (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 10:30PM EDT (link)

Pesky little bugger. Lol

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 

Sarcasm Aside:

greeneyeshade (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:10AM EDT (link)

1.) Mr. Santorum has taken the time to address this audience-I know Newt and others have as well, but I’m still waiting to see anything from Mitt or Paul (hah hah).

2.) Mr. Santorum is addressing an issue that nobody else is here or anywhere, that I have seen and I’d be happy to see any of the others do so as well.

3.) Any proposed response would likely involve way to much text and legalese to make a coherent post. The scope of the post was to identify the issue and discuss the candidate’s awareness with hopefully receptive audience.

-Greeneyeshade-

 
 

Uh..uh..I think he is Michigan right now

jamesm (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 10:25PM EDT (link)

But it is self evident that his policies would be aimed at preserving these communities in Iraq. Either you support these christian communities effort to avoid annihilation or you do not. Conditions on the ground in Iraq will change by January 2013. You don’t start crawling into the weeds on this issue in February of 2012.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

By writing this article, Rick's already entered weed territory

civil truth (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 10:35PM EDT (link)

He needs to make a path or get swallowed up. Just saying – or in this case implying – he has a plan without spelling it out isn’t going to suffice.

Nixon may have survived claiming he had an unspecified plan in 1968, but that that dog won’t hunt in 2012.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

 

No, it's not self-evident at all

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:09PM EDT (link)

No more than Democrats’ famous “concern” for the poor has made the desirability of their policies “self-evident”. One needs a bit more than a kind thought to create good policy that actually does what one intends.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

Yes, and details will follow. But firs the people must rally to first principles. Its easy to shout from the peanut gallery. No detail is required to oppose.

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:25PM EDT (link)

So many at RS treat every column as if it must be of War and Peace length, while the criticisms are afforded cryptic status.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Specific criticisms for the list inclined:

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:58PM EDT (link)

1) The plight of Chaldean Christians during and post-OIF has been extremely well-documented. The extremely volatile situation of Iraqi Christians under policies supported by Santorum is reason to wonder what he would do differently.

2) Santorum supports policies in Syria which would lead to regime change. Objectively, this regime change would likely place the Sunni majority in power in that country. Given that a similar set of circumstances led to the persecution of Christians in Iraq under our invasion, and that Santorum seems to see this subject as a relevant topic, it is incumbent upon him to explain what remedial steps he would take in Syria to prevent such a disaster as he would like to avoid.

3) What kind of “economic development” does Santorum support for Iraqi Christians — and how would a big government make-work program be any better for them than it has been for our country? How does preferential treatment of Christians on the part of the US government aid the security of a group that is already perceived to be disloyal and foreign to a Muslim-majority country?

4) Why should our policy try to preserve Christian communities in Iraq? Is helping relocate these at-risk minorities to safer countries not a potential, humanitarian solution? I, for one, do not see the humanitarian logic behind trapping people aboard a sinking ship — and that’s what Iraq is, without troops.

5) How does Santorum get the political support from both the American and Iraqi people to redeploy combat troops to Iraq again? Remember, we gave back those bases to the Iraqis, and they were adamant about pushing us out — and there’s no way that a forced occupation will be seen as a “liberation” by those folks.

These are not cryptic critiques — they are only confusing to those who have chosen to blind themselves. Details must come now, not later — followers whinge about things. Leaders come up with workable solutions.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

5

rogershru2 (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 12:32AM EDT (link)

nt

“We used to have the best infrastructure in the world here in America. We’re the country that built the Intercontinental Railroad …” – President Obama

 

Why

greeneyeshade (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:14AM EDT (link)

Why should our policy try to preserve Christian communities in Iraq?

Fort the same reason we sought to intervene in the Balkans.

-Greeneyeshade-

 
 
 
 
 
 

The good Senator is addressing the moral question here as he did in the debate with THE most important lines:

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:23PM EDT (link)

“We can have limited government, lower tax—we hear this all the time, cut spending, limit the government, everything will be fine. No, everything’s not going to be fine. There are bigger problems at stake in America. And someone has got to go out there—I will—and talk about the things.”

Liberals strain at gnats. Santorum reminds that if we lose our soul by betraying those we made blood-drenched commitments with, all the tax and spending cuts in the world won’t save us. We are THE target of evil because of our power as the only power that can stop evil and a new Dark Age from descending on the world including us. Under Obama we send the message that to be our friend is risky, and to be our enemy is to be appeased. That must end and the ending should start as the senator suggests.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Well said..

jamesm (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:30PM EDT (link)

nt

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 

That's a cop-out.

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 11:34PM EDT (link)

When all of the things that Santorum references in the article happened under his watch, and his advice is, “more of the same!”, it’s not straining to ask what he would do differently — or how

Moral principles are like math: the only way they’re going to work for you is if you know how to apply them in the real world. If as a politician, you’re unwilling or unable to tell me how you get from point A to point B in a manner consistent with real-world data — then you’ve just wasted my time and yours, and you should come back when you have a way to make your dream into a reality.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

copping out is supposing that we can betray friends and cut government and all will be well

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 7:56AM EDT (link)

I guess we just disagree my brother.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

 
 
 

How's this for a comprehensive policy:

anotherindyfilmguy (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 2:00PM EDT (link)

Destroy Iran.

Take away Iranian influence and money from the terror wars being waged.

Embargoes don’t work with fanatics/dictators.

Put the Iranians back to the dark ages and confiscate their oil fields to pay for it all and to reimburse the Nations in the region and the world they have harmed with their constant support of terror to destabilize the world around them.

Don’t like the idea? Tough, eventually we will have a shooting war with Iran and the sooner when we are stronger than they are the better for us.

Razz Etc!
“Best Poker book written ever!!!” – Author’s unbiased opinion…

 
 

youre a referee too, civil truth?

texasref (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 12:12AM EDT (link)

And a C.S. Lewis fan to boot!

sorry for the threadjack, Senator

“The medical director who performed the autopsy on Trayvon Martin found only two injuries on his body: the gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles. Welcome to the Duke lacrosse case all over again.”–Rush Limbaugh, 5-16-12

Next Step: Docket Sounding on 8-8-12
Final Step: Verdict of Not Guilty

Not currently a referee, texasref

civil truth (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 12:31AM EDT (link)

But I did referee youth and high school soccer for about 10 years some time back. Learned a lot of life lessons from the endeavor.

And the more I read Lewis over the years, the more I am impressed with his insights and wisdom. I wish I had listened to him more in my formative years as a Christian, rather than the words and teaching of abusive pastors and teachers.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

If you want to see the worst in people, officiate youth sports.

NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 9:07AM EDT (link)

First baseball tournament next weekend!

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

 
 
 
 

5

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 9:56PM EDT (link)

Do we have an easy, effective, and safe way for religious minorities in the Middle East to seek asylum? If not, why not? This, IMO, should be a no-brainer from a humanitarian standpoint.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

There's nothing easy about our assylum/immigration system....

Dave_A (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:24AM EDT (link)

If there was, the folks in Iraq who should be first-in-line – the ones who served as our local-national interpreters (‘terps’ in Army-speak) – would be flying through…

Instead, many of them are stuck in Iraq, hiding from resurgent hostile organizations.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

Exactly

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:52PM EDT (link)

I don’t know why immigration reform (particularly for refugee groups in imminent peril precisely because they did so much to help us) would not be a no-brainer.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

 
 
 
 

Sen Santorum, the time to help the Christian community in Iraq

aesthete (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 9:54PM EDT (link)

was before they were intimidated and bullied by the liberated Shi’a majority into conversion or exile — all of which happened from 2004 onwards. Pres Obama has done nothing to fix this catastrophe, and Frmr Pres Bush was unable to: what do you propose to do differently, such that it will have different results? In my opinion, if we have to babysit a “liberated” country indefinitely to prevent humanitarian catastrophe, it calls into question the strategy of nation-building. In light of this, I am disappointed that you call for a set of actions in Syria which would not only lead to the same type of oppression against its Christian minority which you declaim in this article, but which would also be costly and quite possibly against US interests. In my opinion, this sort of muddy thinking reflects the sort of shortsightedness and ignorance emblematic of our bipartisan Middle Eastern policy.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

read 1997 "From the Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East"

lizzie Saturday, February 25th at 11:24AM EDT (link)

by William Dalrymple, to understand the real plight of these congregations who have managed to survive for 1500 years.

aesthete is spot on by noting that Iraqi Christians have been under assault since 2004. Of Iraq’s estimated 1.2 million Christians, more than 700,000 have become refugees, mostly in Jordan and Syria which also have significant Christian congregants who are, so far, are free to worship openly in safety.
In Syria, they align with Assad’s Alawites against the mostly Sunni ‘opposition’.

There is no way that a residual American force in Iraq could do anything more to protect Iraq’s Christian minorities – having failed in that since 2003.

It is somewhat hypocrisy to suddenly decide, in 2011-12, that the Christians of Iraq, and now Egypt need America’s support and protection, while the anti-Assad fervor actually threatens the Christians of Syria the most. Turkey expelled their Syriac and Greek Christians in the 1920′s.

What makes anyone think ousting Assad by supporting the mostly Sunni opposition will do anything but risk the lives of Syria’s Christians, Druse, and Circassians?

90% of the people I meet in the New York metro area from Arab countries are Christians. The Lebanese Christian diaspora in Brazil (10 milllion) and Argentina are Christian.

I have no solution, especially since the parent churches, both Greek Orthodox, and Catholic, are mostly silent.

I do have one solution for Egypt’s Coptic Christians. The eight million who are now trapped should ‘occupy’ Saint Catherine’s Monastery in the western Sinai, and demand self-determination. St. Catherine’s is a protected treasure of the Coptic Church, and the logical heart of a true homeland for the Copts.

I encourage anyone who cares to visit St. Catherine’s monastery and world religious heritage site online. If the Islamists have their way, it would break my heart (and I am Jewish) to see them destroy the icons and libraries of St. Catherine’s.

The survivors of the concentration camps of WW2 probably did not the late response...

anotherindyfilmguy (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 2:03PM EDT (link)

with the alternative at the time having been no response ever…

Razz Etc!
“Best Poker book written ever!!!” – Author’s unbiased opinion…

preview etc...

anotherindyfilmguy (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 2:03PM EDT (link)

“probably did not” -> “probably did not mind”

Razz Etc!
“Best Poker book written ever!!!” – Author’s unbiased opinion…

 
 
 
 

Sen. Santorum, OT. Please do more debates!

tomrt (Diary) Friday, February 24th at 10:38PM EDT (link)

Should the latest polls hold and Romney win both MI and AZ, he’d then get an enormous boost from them heading into Super Tuesday. If he does well that night as well, he’ll likely be impossible to stop thereafter. Therefore, it’s in your interests, too, to do more debates, not just speaker Gingrich’s. I’d like to recommend at least one more debate before Super Tuesday, and about one per fortnight after it.

I strongly urge you to speak with Speaker Gingrich about this and see if one or both of the two canceled debates (dated Mar. 1 and 5) can somehow be resurrected, or if an alternate pre-ST debate can be scheduled.

Thank you posting this important diary on a subject that badly needs much attention.


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pretty thin on solutions...

retrocon87 Saturday, February 25th at 12:07AM EDT (link)

This was a pretty well-written explanation about how bad things are, but doesn’t exactly give much substance in terms of what to do about it… Yes, leaving Iraq and cutting the embassy staff had a pretty horrible effect on the Christians, but what exactly is he going to do??…. He’ll send the troops back in and keep them there indefinitely to protect the Chaldeans? Is he going to send the military into Egypt to protect the Copts also?? The reason it was thin on solutions is because anyone who has actually thought about this issue knows that there isn’t really much of an answer to it… He knows that people on this site tend to be religious Christians and he thinks it will connect with us that he’s writing an article where he attempts to come as the “passionate champion of the Christians of the Middle East” but at the end of the day if he has no details to give on whatever this alleged “comprehensive solution” of his is, it just comes off as patronizing and I am beyond tired of these people talking about how they have “comprehensive solutions to the mess Obama created” but then they just cross their fingers that we don’t care enough to ask any of the details… it is the same old establishment mentality that “we the people” are all just complete idiots that they can fool with their “savvy Washington campaign rhetoric.”

 

Senator Santorum, you passed on the opportunity to address this

texasref (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 12:14AM EDT (link)

when you decided a public debate on the issues of importance facing this country were not worth your time.

Speaker Gingrich was ready and willing, but you were not.

I appreciate your coming to redstate, and I agree with your position on how important this is, but you need to participate in the debates to maintain credibility as a candidate.

“The medical director who performed the autopsy on Trayvon Martin found only two injuries on his body: the gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles. Welcome to the Duke lacrosse case all over again.”–Rush Limbaugh, 5-16-12

Next Step: Docket Sounding on 8-8-12
Final Step: Verdict of Not Guilty

 

Sen Santorum..Now that you are a first tier candidate I would have to see more debates

gracie (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 2:19AM EDT (link)

before I could possibly vote for you. You did an excellent job in Florida but this week…well I must see more now that you are getting substantive questions.

I remember a time when a debate was called and only you and
Speaker Gingrich agreed to come. It was cancelled. If the two of you can do the one in Georgia or at least one before Super Tuesday we who are contemplating voting for you would be able to get more questions answered re: your policies.

PLEASE re-consider! I am sure Erick Erickson would assist you if you have lost your venue!

@ gracie + Sen Santorum: Yes, it's been 20 debates but we need 21.

trickamsterdam Saturday, February 25th at 2:57AM EDT (link)

Before “gracie can possibly vote for you”. Don’t worry, her mind’s totally open to everything you have to say: she’s not in the tank for Newt at all.

I think it’ll be great to watch you get tag-teamed again by the libertarian and the liberal, and being asked questions by moderators who will end up voting for Obama, and maybe have (literally) never even read the New Testament.

I think “gracie” is exactly right, and Lord only knows what she’s gonna do if Newt wins the nomination and Obama won’t debate him either. Oh, I guess not vote for Obama. But then she’s not going to vote for you either, no matter how much you debate.

I grew up in PA. PA is w/ you again. The last poll I saw, you were nearly at 50% and no one else was close. It’s time to play this strategically…until Paul’s lap-dog like embarrassing licking of Romney at debates can be neutralized: No More.

Also, if possible, you and Newt need to form an alliance. Paul and Romney together can beat either of you alone…I suspect Romney is just using the old fool…but there’s no fool like an old fool. Especially one who thinks he taking care of his son.

Tricks, I confess to being truly confused

gracie (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:46AM EDT (link)

You say I am exactly right after you imply I am wrong.

Of course you cannot possibly know what is in another’s heart or mind. After my long love affair with Perry I did flirt with Newt. Then Santorum came on in Florida with a roar, excellently calling Romney on Romneycare for which we were all awed and grateful that somebody had finally done it really well.. Even more, we were amazed at Newt’s reticence. What ever happened to the Professor/Statesman?

So with Newt falling like a rock and Santorum looking strong I was trying to talk myself into voting for him. On last Wed I expected to solidify my decision. But lo, The Professor/ Statesman was back and the rest looked like a junior high food fight. What is a voter to do?

I am annoyed that the GA debate has been cancelled which I blame primarily on Romney who opted out first and then the others ran fast as they could away from another possible confrontation with the new, energized Newt.

So yes, IF I am to vote for Santorum, I need to know more. After all, in many of the debates he was almost ignored as he will be glad to tell you. I should think a tough guy would like a re-match.

(BTW, Having fun with my name? How ever did you come up with yours? When I was in Amsterdam a few years ago I deliberately avoided the street where the tricks were being played! I cannot see your name without thinking of it so have always wanted to inquire.)

@ gracie: I'll explain my name, since you ask + address the political.

trickamsterdam Saturday, February 25th at 11:04PM EDT (link)

BTW, I wasn’t making fun of your name, except that writer’s trick wise, putting anything in quotes can be funny. So “charlie” would have worked just as well as “gracie”. Maybe it’s more like the writer’s version of a Principal’s tone when a student’s in the office…but basically it was just a writer’s trick.

“trickamsterdam” came from the fact that I am a Gen X guy, who grew up in a weird period between when computers weren’t a part of our lives and when they clearly are. When I first went on the internet as a amusement, I used my full real name. No, problems, but then it seemed TMI. So I went to a nickname an old girlfriend had called me.

Finally, having time to be on the computer again, in a sporting way, I decided to go totally anonymous (no connection to the computer anarchists/pranksters group of that name).

I remembered a joke from an old Howard Stern Show that someone’s “porn name” would be their middle name + the nearest named street, blvd, ave.

So my middle name was “Patrick” and “Amsterdam” was the nearest avenue. Shorten it to “trick” and then lowercase it and put both together so it’s easier to type when signing in…and that’s that.

***

As far as the political stuff, OK, maybe I was wrong, you don’t have your mind made up.

I may have been projecting, because it’s clear to me what all of these four have to offer, and also their negatives, the last thing I need is more debates to confuse things.

That is, I don’t want to see the Paul/Romney tandem pound Santorum again, or for it to get stuck on MSM talking points again. They’d do the same thing if Newt was on top again. And Newt and Santorum can’t just debate each other because it marginalizes them both, and they can’t exclude Paul because he’s still technically is a legitimate candidate who just finished a close second in Maine.

From my own point of view, I don’t care whether it’s Newt or Santorum at this point. I think Santorum is more electable, but Newt is the smarter and more accomplished man.

I just don’t want Romney, who is less electable than both, and is a liberal, and is repellent as a man. I would have taken Paul as a go-for-broke dice roll at one point, but I don’t want him anymore either as he’s been revealed as Romney’s toy dog and small elf. I still like his son.

This is one of the reasons I think Santorum is the most electable of the four, which most people don’t seem to think:

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/why-mitt-romney-might-be-even-weaker-than-you-think.php?ref=fpb

PS – Mitt Romney’s “porn name” would probably be something like “Mitt Michigan”. LOL.

trickamsterdam, Read your thought provoking reply

gracie (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:51PM EDT (link)

with great interest. And the link as well. Thanks for taking time to explain your position. I am just not sure I buy it that Sen Santorum is the most electable even after reading the stats. I am also thinking these stats might change.

You and I have the same goal: nominating not-Romney and wanting to win!

But… I can just hear the nasty ads, the sound-bites about Satan and States having the right to control contraception! And then there is the fact that at some point he suggested a Constitutional Amendment to prohibit abortion. I fear his words being ridiculously twisted.

,I am certainly for less government; not more!

I thought he acted childish and whiny at Wed debate. I am remembering Rick Perry not whining; his “it is what it is” attitude of defending himself. So yes, now that Rick Santorum is in the process of his first real vetting I wanted to see if he can deflect blows in a more mature way as well as wanting to see if Newt had also matured into dropping his childishness.

Having said all that I can see your point also. I don’t think there will be any more debates so it is probably a moot point. The ganging up has been horribly destructive. That debate bothered me so much I watched it twice in an attempt to feel comfortable to vote for Santorum.

Also I think a lot is forgotten between debates. Certainly the press does not remind us that Romney said he is not concerned about the poor (their safety net etc,) Ideally there would have been about two debates a month, at least half with convervatives in charge. We have to rely on the public to remember who is fooling who and how much. We shall see!

As to the name…I was operating under snark and too little sleep. I was silly indeed. Although your name has been distracting to me, I could have chosen a much better place to ask than this particular thread! Apologies.

It did have a very interesting derivation. Mine is simply the name of a really sweet cat also known as Graciegirl or Amazing Grace. Grace is indeed hard/impossible? to achieve in this world!

 
 
 
 

More debates would be helpful for bringing this issue of Islamic scourge against rel. minorities in Muslim countries to national attention

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 7:29AM EDT (link)

And generations of those hapless minority populations will be thankful for it.


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Hey Rick, You Plagiarized What Newt Has Been Saying

mikelindell2 Saturday, February 25th at 3:00AM EDT (link)

Newt said that as long as you’re America’s enemy you’re safe, it’s only our allies that need to worry. Now a few days later you trot out a near identical phrasing of that? Newt said months ago that Obama makes Carter look strong, now you trot out a near identical phrasing of that? You had your chance and now it’s over. You’re too proud, but if you ever find humility, drop out now and endorse Newt. You were only propped up by Fox as a means of blocking Newt’s nomination. You were never more than a social conservative with a liberal fiscal record.

Santorum's support comes from those of us

Dave_A (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:26AM EDT (link)

Who are as ‘Not-Newt’ as we are ‘Not-Romney’.

It has nothing to do with ‘Fox’ or anyone else ‘propping’ anyone up.

There’s a significant part of the GOP primary electorate that DOES NOT WANT NEWT GINGRICH AS OUR CANDIDATE – mostly because we think his personal baggage is too much of a liability in the general.

Santorum dropping out would leave us with NO CANDIDATE to support.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

I'll support Romney before Newt...

Creedo Saturday, February 25th at 3:35AM EDT (link)

I can name two dozen people that I sit in worship with every Sunday who feel the same way.

Congrats

mikelindell2 Saturday, February 25th at 4:22AM EDT (link)

Pick the guy whose conservatism is limited strictly to social issues or pick the guy who is a liberal or at the very best moderate. Ignore the guy who is the only all-around conservative, the only one who has an accomplished record of achieving huge conservative things, and the one with the best all-around conservative plan for the future.

 
 

Twice It's Been Proven that There's a Huge Contingent of People That Want Newt

mikelindell2 Saturday, February 25th at 4:19AM EDT (link)

This narrative of Newt’s “baggage” is strange. I don’t think a candidate’s personal life from decades ago will be able to be made relevant in a campaign and his stellar record and clarity expressing his beliefs will easily overcome that. However, Santorum’s baggage is applicable. He has said that states should ban contraception, that Christians are wrong for using contraception, that Protestants have been corrupted by Satan, etc. That puts him so far outside the mainstream of conservative thought let alone general electorate thought that he would suffer another historic loss. The whole party would be hurt because he would be the face of it. Not to mention that Santorum’s record on fiscal issues is abysmal, and his current tax plan is another case of government picking winners and losers. Romney’s baggage is that he is the embodiment of the “1%” that Obama has been crafting for years to use against Romney. Romney constantly saying bizarre things does not help that either.

The 'large group' that wants Newt has the same problem as the one that wants Romney - Neither is large enough...

Dave_A (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 7:28AM EDT (link)

Except that Romney actually has a core of support (I’m not part of it, but you have to admit that he has a fairly ‘flat’ polling average (indicating committed supporters) – his problem is that he can’t get support from anyone else

It’s now apparent that Newt’s support came from folks looking for a ‘Not Romney’ capable of knocking Mittens out of the race, and when Gingrich failed to seal the deal, they jumped ship to Santorum. Gingrich’s core-support, apparently, is in the same neighborhood as Ron Paul’s.

Further, the fact is that ESPECIALLY WHEN DEALING WITH OBAMA, personal baggage DOES matter. And it’s Newt’s biggest problem: He defines ‘unlikable’ both personally and politically.

Most of the people who are rooting for him, universally say ‘I don’t care about how people see the man, I like his ideas’. Well, ‘the man’ wins or looses the election, not his ideas… You may not like it, but that’s the way American politics is – personality trumps principle & competence every time (just look at Obama).

The fact is, Newt has huge negatives from the 90s, his plans are even more big-spending than Santorum (a recent CBO scorecard predicted he’d produce a 1.5TN deficit to Santorum’s 1.2TN), and people simply won’t trust him after Obama hammers him with negative ads about his personal life.

He can’t win, so there’s no point in supporting him – hell, he can’t even beat ROMNEY except in the Southeast.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

WJC won despite sex scandals galore

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 8:04AM EDT (link)

‘Gingrich’s core-support, apparently, is in the same neighborhood as Ron Paul’s.’

So is Santorum’s.

‘personal baggage DOES matter’

Americans voted in Bill Clinton despite his personal flaws. Reason: competence. Same with Newt.

‘He defines ‘unlikable’ both personally and politically.’

What we saw over the last week or two (contraception, Satan, etc) with Santorum in the spotlight was just a preview of what would come if Santorum gets nominated. It wouldn’t be pretty, and the whole of GOP would stand to get branded as the party with the wrong priorities at the wrong time and lose across the board.

‘personality trumps principle & competence every time’

See above.

‘and people simply won’t trust him after Obama hammers him with negative ads about his personal life.’

To the contrary, Santorum’s what would be presented as religious ideological baggage is worse. Most Americans, including the crucial independent and swing voters, have a family member or two who have been through personal/marital difficulties, and so it’s not hard for them to see beyond the personal matters, as was the case w/ WJC, if the candidate can display competence.

‘hell, he can’t even beat ROMNEY except in the Southeast.’

If Romney and his thug-PAC went gang-busters against Santorum as badly as they did against Newt in Iowa and Florida (FL: a staggering $17 million and 13,000 attacks ad spots), I doubt he’d be doing too well either. Newt has shown that he can take a licking like that and still have the fight left in him.


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All the above ends up being, is an excuse for Newt.

Dave_A (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 8:22AM EDT (link)

First off, the fact is that Independnets see Newt as ‘the man obstructing Clinton’. He gets NO credit for anything done in the 90s other than the government shutdown.

Second, Clinton could win despite sex scandals because he’s a Democrat. Double standard? Sure. But it’s a fact.

It seems your entire analysis is driven by a fear of Santorum’s religious zealotry…. But here’s the thing: None of that makes him seem ‘untrustworthy’, and ALL of it is arguable (Since all of it is a distortion of the facts).

None of Newt’s baggage is arguable, except the ‘roadblock to Clinton’ part – but it might as well be, as trying to argue that the House of Reps should get credit for the 90s economy/budget is like trying to sell a drowning man water…

Gingrich is already painted into a corner… There’s no saving him, no matter how good his ‘ideas’ may sound to some. Unlike Santorum, his baggage isn’t debatable – there’s no way to call BS, because it’s all true.

Further, Newt got hit by a light dusting of negative ads in FL, compared to what Obama has in store. And he ABSOLUTELY FOLDED. Frontrunner to 14% isn’t ‘taking a licking’, it’s ‘down on the canvas and the Ref is counting to 10′….

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

Santorum once said he's 'disciple' of Newt

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 10:28AM EDT (link)

‘First off, the fact is that Independnets see Newt as ‘the man obstructing Clinton’. He gets NO credit for anything done in the 90s other than the government shutdown.’

If that were true, then Santorum gets no credit for anything he had done during the 90s, and highly avoidable and negative Bush II baggage for what he did during the Bush years, a worse picture.

In reality, Newt is the reason we had a GOP majority, balanced budget amendment (and balanced budgets), welfare reform, large corporate gains tax cuts, etc. In fact, Newt’s work was the reason Santorum’s career came to exist and he became a senator in the tide of the 1994 “Gingrich revolution.” Sen. Santorum himself acknowledged this when he once called himself a “disciple of Newt Gingrich.”

‘Second, Clinton could win despite sex scandals because he’s a Democrat. Double standard? Sure. But it’s a fact.’

Why do you think that the media would apply double standards only when it comes to Newt? They’d do the same for Santorum or any other GOP nominee. That’s a structural handicap for all of them.

‘But here’s the thing: None of that makes him seem ‘untrustworthy’’
‘None of Newt’s baggage is arguable’

Americans have proven (WJC) that they do not conflate marital infidelity with untrustworthiness in office. If anything, the image as well as reality of Newt is that he means exactly what he says when it comes to politics and policy.

‘as trying to argue that the House of Reps should get credit for the 90s economy/budget’

The house of reps is actually the budget appropriating body in our government. If you think that balanced budget amendments and corporate gains tax cuts do not affect the economy, then you’re probably at least a fiscal liberal.

‘And he ABSOLUTELY FOLDED’

Newt got hammered in IA, and he not only didn’t ‘fold,’ but came back to win SC and retake the lead. Then he got hammered with 4x more money in FL, and he still placed a strong there (32%), and a second in NV (a far closer 2nd if you factor out Romney’s Mormon-edge in NV). Santorum made a smart play in CO,MO and MN (when Newt was duking it out with Romney in FL) with a lot of help from religious conservative orgs, and surged to the front, but his weak performance under stress in the AZ debate as well as losing the edge he had just a few days ago in MI do not prove that he is going to be too effective at taking Romney out. And he hasn’t proved that he can sustain the scale of negative attacks that Newt took and show the tenacity to stay afloat (which matters in the primary as well as the general.)

Newt needed to reboot after FL and NV and take a time out to raise some cash, and Newt is not campaigning in MI to allow Santorum to have a direct shot at Romney in a contested primary in a large state. While Newt won one such state (SC), Santorum is yet to prove that he can. If Santorum fails to win MI, he should then drop out, endorse Newt, and campaign for him extensively (and thus repay Newt for the tutelage that he received to start and advance his political career.)


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Here is the 'I was a disciple' quote

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 12:12PM EDT (link)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/55495807/Understanding-Newt-Gingrich

“…this is what Gingrich did. Though his C-SPAN speeches and his GOPAC training tapes, he helped teach a generation of activists how to think and talk about political strategy. Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA), elected to the House in 1990 and the Senate in 1994, said: “I listened to the tapes all the time driving around in the car. They taught tactics you should use, basic philosophy, how to discuss the issues. I was a disciple.” And according to Paul Weyrich: “Many members have told me, ‘Until I heard Newt explain this, I never understood the context of my beliefs.’

h/t Archer@RS


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Like it or not, personal integrity matters.

SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 10:13AM EDT (link)

Speaking very generally, liberals don’t care what someone does in their “personal life.”

Right or wrong, and for better or worse, speaking generally, conservatives do factor in personal integrity. President Clinton didn’t lose a significant amount of support from the left because of his adultery. However, a conservative candidate whose been involved in adulterous relationships will lose significant support from the conservative base.

www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com

Newt won comfortably in conservative South Carolina,

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 10:33AM EDT (link)

that too while being outspent 2-1, disproving fully your assertion ‘will lose significant support from the conservative base.’


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Good point, Tom.

SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:24AM EDT (link)

Still, I wonder how much support Newt lost, despite his big win. It would be interesting if there’s some analysis on this. Maybe Newt would have won in a landslide? (I doubt it, but don’t have any data to back this up.) Still, he had to have lost some support. Question is, whether he lost 1.2% of 18%.

www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com

 
 

Adulterer and murderer King David

WillWong (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 10:37AM EDT (link)

Remains one of the most beloved person in Christendom!

Agree, WillWong. But perception is reality. [nt]

SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:27AM EDT (link)

www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com

 
 
 

Competence?

greeneyeshade (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:38AM EDT (link)

WJC won because:

In 1992, Ross Perot.

In 1996, Bob Dull.

Clinton would have run roughshod over us, if people didn’t keep him in check with Congress.

-Greeneyeshade-

wjc

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 12:06PM EDT (link)

Clinton would have run roughshod over us, if people didn’t keep him in check with Congress.

And who was running the house of reps (after a 16 year long effort by the same person to bring the GOP into majority) then? Newt Gingrich. Gingrich’s 1994 success also forced Clinton to tack to the right in 1996 and later.

Ross Perot helped Clinton win a huge electoral college win in 1992, but I’d guess that Clinton-Gore would’ve probably won a narrow victory even without Perot.

Regardless, Clinton, having great communication skills, was able to project competence to the voters, and thus overcame his nauseatingly scandal-ridden baggage. Clinton’s job approvals stayed at or above 60% even through the impeachment process (while his personal favorables tanked) precisely because of that perception people had of Clinton’s competence.


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I Support Newt Because He is the Most Electable

mikelindell2 Saturday, February 25th at 10:04AM EDT (link)

I’m sorry but an election of 4.2% unemployment vs 9% unemployment, balanced budgets vs trillion dollar deficits, entitlement reform vs runaway entitlements threatening our collapse, getting things done in Washington vs whining about gridlock-I’ll take that match up every time. Next exudes knowledge, competence, and has the record to back it up. In these times, that’s what people want. You want to go after Obama’s record? First you need a candidate with a record to contrast with it-47th in the nation in job creation won’t do it, neither will leadership experience lacking Santorum. Oh, did I mention that Newt is the only one who puts Republicans on offense, not perpetually on defense trying to defend our ideas? He frames the debate so that the Libs are the ones who have to defend themselves.

Leaving that question aside, do you think Newt is the most conservative candidate as well?

SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 10:50AM EDT (link)

IMHO, Santorum is the most conservative candidate (remaining), followed closely by Newt. Lagging far behind in conservative cred is the Mittster.

I’m open to the electability argument for selecting a candidate. Being the most conservative and most electable is the idea. If this is the case, in most contexts each point should be emphasized in most circumstances/contexts.

www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com

Kowalski

SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:05AM EDT (link)

I love to ask Romney supporters who incessantly tout his “electability” whether Romney is the most conservative candidate.

In case the tone is not clear, I’m definitely not comparing your electability point to the Romney refrain. I’m also open to whether Newt is more conservative than Santorum.

The Romney meme annoys me. And it’s not solely because I disagree quantitatively. It’s like, okay, John Kerry served in Vietnam. Enough already. Shut up!

Perception wise, this hurts Romney rather than helps him. It seems that’s all he’s got. Newt and Santorum are out there with ideas, and not playing a 2-3 year game of run out the clock defense.

www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com

 

Kowalski to 1st post - "is the ideal"

SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:06AM EDT (link)

.

www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com

 

Should Have Added-Newt Most Conservative IMO

mikelindell2 Saturday, February 25th at 11:11AM EDT (link)

He has the highest ACU rating of any of the candidates. He is the only one who has proven his conservatism, especially in the fiscal realm. Santorum very much supported Big Labor as a senator, and went along with, and even created, endless new spending projects. I feel Santorum’s conservatism is limited to social and foreign policy issues. Santorum’s current tax plan keeps a progressive system in place, and sets up government picking winners and losers (different tax rates for different sectors of economy). I’ll leave Mitt out because we know his story already. Newt is a social conservative, foreign policy conservative, and a strong fiscal conservative. He is the only one offering a flat tax and wants to reduce corporate tax lower than anyone else. Zeroing out the capital gains tax for all incomes would also be a tremendous boost to the economy, not to mention his robust energy plan and social security plan. His proposals are the most conservative, and he is the only one with a record that I can place trust in. Between rhetoric and record, I’ll definitely take Newt.

Thanks, Mike. [nt]

SoFiMil (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:16AM EDT (link)

..

www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com

 
 
 
 
 

Very wrong

Locked and Loaded (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 9:12AM EDT (link)

if you think Newt’s baggage is behind him. I haven’t heard the term yet, but if Newt did somehow win the primary, is there any doubt the MSM would immediately begin telling us about the possibility of a “First Mistress”? Fact is, even for those who believe in the power of redemption, his baggage goes with him everywhere.

I have been watchful of, and pleased with, the ways in which Newt has informed this primary season, but the above cannot be ignored – will not be ignored – by many who do not need the MSM to tell them about it.

No GM, GE, or any GSE for me.

Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?
Matthew 20:15 NIV

 
 

The country is in need of a Churchillian figure

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 7:22AM EDT (link)

in the White house, not George Bush I or II, and Newt fits the bill perfectly.

Even on the issues of raging Islamic extremism and terrorism around the world, and the march of Islamization here a home, Newt would be better, since he doesn’t wear his own religion on his sleeve.


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Anyone who even says 'Islamization' in reference to the USA

Dave_A (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 7:32AM EDT (link)

Can be sumarily ignored, along with the folks who whine about ‘Mexicanization’ and so on…

The fact is, Muslims are a distinct minority and there is no danger that they will become the dominant culture. It’s anti-immigrant fear-mongering, nothing more.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

Do you know that Shariah courts currently operate in Britain

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 8:18AM EDT (link)

and that Shariah is being pushed in Germany, Sweden and elsewhere in Europe? If you didn’t know that, then you’re not well informed on the subject (and can therefore be “summarily ignored”?).

The push for Shariah is a central component of the ‘Islamization’ package that Islamists bring with them.

‘The fact is, Muslims are a distinct minority and there is no danger that they will become the dominant culture.’

They’re minorities in Europe too (mostly 1-3%, with the exception of France, which has about a 10% Muslim population.)

‘It’s anti-immigrant fear-mongering, nothing more.’

Nope. It’s not at all about immigration or xenophobia. Muslims do OK until the Islamists move in and put in motion the Islamization/radicalization process. Countless countries and cultures have been through that painful experience through out the 1500 year history of Islam. If you don’t get that, then you need to brush up on Islam’s history.


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Shariaphobia is all about immigration bull..... Period....

Dave_A (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 8:38AM EDT (link)

Do you understand what ‘Binding Arbitration’ is?

The so-called ‘shariah courts’ are merely nonjudicial arbitration, and are only enforceable because all parties involve mutually agree to have their dispute resolved outside the regular justice system.

This isn’t a threat, or even a problem – it’s a part of living in a free society, namely freedom of contract.

There is absolutely no justification for opposing the right of 2 parties to specify in a contract that any disputes will be resolved by (insert-law-here)…. And it’s not just Muslims who do it – some elements of Orthodox Judaism do the exact same thing – it’s just they’re not the bug-a-boo of the day, so it’s ignored…

I could do it here in the US too – not just with Shariah, but with Hamurabbi’s Code, the Old Testament, Catholic Cannon Law, Ancient Roman Law, the Code Napoleon, or anything else I wanted to – just find an office, hang out a shingle, and hope some people agree to be judged by me.

There are limits to this process – it can’t issue rulings that would violate official criminal law (so no head chopping, trials by combat, honor-killing or flogging for example), cannot preside over criminal cases, and it cannot be used unless all parties consent. But that’s what makes it completely harmless AND a legitimate exercise among a free people. It’s to be defended, not opposed.

Idiots who whine about ‘creeping shariah’ distort reality, using the so-called ‘courts’ in the UK as if they are actual legal governmental courts, rather than a private dispute-resolution business operating under contract law.

It’s useless fear-mongering, nothing more.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

Shariah is a mechanism through which Islamists gain control and power

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 9:36AM EDT (link)

over Muslims first (instead of allowing them to operate as free individuals in a free society, subject to the common laws of the land) in a non-Muslim country, and then they use the power thus gathered to turn the knobs on the rest of the country. Europe is reeling from such Islamization, and we are headed in the same direction, thanks to the assists that the mushrooming Islamist organizations are getting from Holder and Obama.

On the point you make about contracts. Of course, anyone can enter into any contract that doesn’t violate the laws, but Shariah when it is fully phased-in (eg, Israel has Shariah-based civil code that applies to all Muslims in Israel) is an imposition of an over-arching new legal structure on all Muslims (whether they are practicing Muslims or not, or whether they want to abide by Shariah or not. Any child born into a Muslim family gets automatically bound by Shariah), as well as an imposition of Islamist will on non-Muslims.

Of course, in a Muslim-majority country, Shariah takes on more gory and grotesque forms (executions of apostates, gays, imposition of draconian “blasphemy” laws, etc).

Some recent events:
1. Why we need anti-Sharia laws: Muslim judge enforces Sharia in case of Muslim attacker on mocker of Muhammad, by Robert Spencer. ‘..a (US) Muslim judge acquitted a Muslim attacker for attacking an atheist dressed as Muhammad in a Halloween parade..’

2. ICNA, an Islamist organization, has started a billboard campaign to whitewash Sharia:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

You’re apparently very ignorant on this subject. I bet that your candidate, Sen. Santorum, can school you nicely on it. I currently don’t have the time to delve into it at depth, but you can begin by looking up ‘Europe and Islam’ or ‘Europe and Shariah’ in a search engine and by checking Spencer’s coverage at Jihad Watch.


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Newt is also

tomrt (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 10:52AM EDT (link)

very well informed on Shariah and related subjects.


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That billboard is chilling!

littlehouse18 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:21AM EDT (link)

nt

 

Despite all this, I remain unconvinced....

Dave_A (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 7:09AM EDT (link)

What you list here, is mostly a list of non-issues, and one case of liberal judicial misconduct.

‘Islamization’ is just another anti-immigrant bull

Yes, children tend to have to follow the rules of the culture they’re born into… That doesn’t enhance your case any… It’s like liberals saying that we need laws to prevent Christians from making their kids behave as Christians.

Neither does ‘OMG, these people maintain their own traditions within their community’ – OF COURSE THEY DO – just like pretty much any other immigrant group. Again, not a political problem for the host nation – and absolutely not something that justifies the level of fear-mongering associated with the topic (usually by people with no personal experience on the subject)..

There’s nothing wrong with the billboard, either…

And as for that judge, it wouldn’t be the first time that a judge ‘let someone off’ over the BS line of ‘well, he offended his attacker’ – it’s not ‘shariah’, it’s liberalism. No different than a judge of some other minority letting someone off on assault charges with the excuse of ‘he was offended’ (Say, black dude beats up a guy for wearing a KKK costume, black judge lets him off, because ‘he was offended’). Wrong, ABSOLUTELY… Deserving of special legislation?

The issue isn’t that I’m ‘ignorant’ – it’s just that I don’t see any problem with what’s happening, and I view it in the context of history – both with how Europe treats it’s immigrants, and how immigrant communities in the early US behaved over time…. I also don’t view Islam itself as any sort of a threat – somewhat comes from having been in combat with Muslims both fighting alongside me (ANSF) and shooting at me (Taliban/Haqqani)… Hence, I don’t tend to lump all of Islam into the ‘enemy’ category – some are, some aren’t…

We don’t need to pass laws forcing immigrants to abandon their culture. That will happen over time, once they become comfortable in their new environment. We’ve seen it happen with various European and East-Asian ethnicity here in the US – they start out forming insular communities/’ghettos’, then gradually assimilate over multiple generations – usually a minimum of 5. Muslims won’t be any different, given the time to go through the generational adjustment cycle.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

 
 

Sharia

Agelaius Sunday, February 26th at 9:02AM EDT (link)

may be an alternate dispute resolution mechanism, but it is very difficult to contain it to just an alternative between two parties who agree on the rules. Sharia is based upon a theology that attributes inerrancy to the quran and the hadiths. Something that is clearly set forth in Sharia, such as female inheritance, is binding under law. It is not really possible for a devout Muslim to have a dispute resolved under Sharia, then act contrary to that decision in order to appease civil law under our system. If you were talking about informal dispute resolution, you would have a point. But Sharia is not an informal system. It is highly codified and carries the weight of Quranic inerrancy behind it.

There may be a slight whiff of fear-mongering when these laws get introduced in places like Oklahoma, where the number of Muslims is so small. But… from a practical standpoint, I’m not sure its useless. Voters want and need to hear a strong defense of basic values, and Islam lies several standard deviations outside of mainstream American values. Sharia is dangerous. We are at war, if not with all Islam, then at least with those who interpret the Quran literally. Preventing the use of Sharia should be part of that effort. If it allows voters to focus more widely on creeping infiltration of Islam in our society, then it is not such a bad thing. We already have a President who is at least somewhat sympathetic (although I don’t believe the arguments that he is actually a Muslim.) We are a Christian nation – we allow freedom for all religions, but this nation needs to retain a decent regard for the lowest-common-denominator of Judeo-Christian ethics, and those ethics are not necessarily consistent with Islam. People have the right to pray, but just as we don’t have zoning that allows the Call to Prayer broadcast on loudspeakers, we have the right to a little religious zoning as well – forbidding religious courts that are in competition with our own legal system, or which may supercede it or function with greater legitimacy among a minority.

Isn't Christianity the same in this regard?

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 9:51AM EDT (link)

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous rinstead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers! (I Cor 6:1-8 ESV)

Christians consider the Bible to be infallible. There is nothing informal about it. For Christians, it is our highest law. Unfortunately, to our shame, we do more often than not go to the courts. Would you have a problem with two Christians taking their dispute before the church elders to be settled? Would you forbid such? I don’t see how this is any different than Sharia mediation between Muslims. So long as it isn’t codified into local, state, or federal laws I don’t have a problem with it.

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

But surely, NightTwister,

westcoastpatriette (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 10:24AM EDT (link)

you are not suggesting that there is no difference between disputes that may arise between Christians and disputes that may arise under Islam or Sharia, are you? If so, how do we address when, under Sharia law, apostates from the faith are given death sentences or honor killings are legal if a family feels that it has been dishonored by the conduct of a family member? And women have no rights?

These are examples of how Sharia law conflicts with all of our civil laws and that is where the danger lies. To defend Sharia on the grounds that it is the equivalent of defending religious freedom just doesn’t work. See what I mean?

Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:1-3

What I'm saying is

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 10:34AM EDT (link)

that people should have the ability to settle disputes amongst themselves. If muslims want to do that according to their beliefs, so be it. Obviously it should be a voluntary system. If women want to give up their rights because of their beliefs, can a government force those rights upon them?

As for killing apostates, honor killings, etc., of course that cannot be allowed, as it clearly defies our laws.

It’s one thing to give up rights and to have them taken away. The first is allowed, the second is not. Settling disputes according to a religious code should be allowed where it does not defy our government laws.

That said, if the government passed a law that would require me to sin (by omission or commission) per the requirements of the Christian scriptures, I would have to defy that law. I’m sure you would too. I would suffer the consequences of that defiance, but there’s a long history of others that have done the same.

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

 
 

Your last sentence is EXACTLY the problem NT.

mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 10:26AM EDT (link)

Frankly, if they have a civil issue between two people they can settle it however they want, I don’t much care. The problem hits when somebody’s daughter dishonors the family, etc.

It’s codified in US law, they will raise all hell if we take the issue to court.

Change

It should never be codified into US law.

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 10:38AM EDT (link)

Here we agree. If they want to do it amongst themselves, I don’t really care, so long as they aren’t forcibly taking away the rights of another.

There is a time coming where we as Christians will have to defy the government (by refusing to obey a law) and we will be seen exactly the same way (though we both now it will not be the same thing). Actually, for some, it’s already happening with the requirement to provide contraceptives through health insurance. There are many individuals and organizations that will simply refuse to obey.

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

 

Becker, that would suggest that Muslims would willing choose to

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:22AM EDT (link)

honor the laws of our nation pertaining to civil and/or criminal acts, wouldn’t it? I’m not sure that they will. I’m not sure they will honor those laws rather than taking matters into their own hands. And I’m not just referring to issues that are Muslim versus Muslim. I’m referring to issues that might be Muslim versus “outsider” as well.

What disturbs me most about Islam is its teaching about “the infidel”. I don’t know of any other religion that supports premeditated murder. Islam does, if it pertains to “the infidel”.

What I visualize happening is that we end up with a legal system within a legal system where there are points of conflict between the two that constantly cause conflict. Under the scope of the broader legal system, we do have the right to protect and defend ourselves from harm, and it would become very important to protect and preserve that right.

You show an important distinction.

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:30AM EDT (link)

It should only be allowed when voluntarily applied to believers, and only then when it does not conflict with local, state, and federal laws. Those will always take precedence. This is true regardless of one’s religious beliefs.

Here’s an example of doing it wrong. First, physical assault is wrong regardless of the reason (save for self-defense). Secondly, First Amendment rights do give us the right to piss off other people and other cultures. That’s how it works in a free society, and it’s the only way a free exchange of ideas will happen.

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

Muslims have been exempted

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:05PM EDT (link)

from Obamacare. Islam considers insurance to be gambling, risk taking and usury, and therefore purchasing any type of insurance is banned. I don’t know if they are exempted from state insurance laws requiring auto insurance. Anyway, they have been exempted from Obamacare and the penalty for not being insured. As a non-muslim, if I do not purchase health insurance, I have no exemption from the penalty.

Isn’t there a current case in Pa where a judge found the victim of a beating, to be the guilty party, because he insulted Muhammed? I know I saw the headline that a PA judge ruled according to Sharia law. I highly doubt that if someone gets beat up for insulting Jesus, that the beater would be found to be the innocent party, and the insulter to be the victim.

I meant to say

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:07PM EDT (link)

the insulter to be the guilty party.

 

Yeah, Scope, see NightT.'s link about the incident

westcoastpatriette (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:10PM EDT (link)

in PA above. Bizarre case. In that one, the judge himself converted to Islam and needs to be disbarred, IMO.

Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:1-3

 

I just linked that case in my comment.

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:11PM EDT (link)

The one about the beating. The judge was wrong and should be overturned and removed from the bench if he doesn’t stop ruling this way.

FactCheck.org states that muslims are not exempt from Obamacare. They aren’t always reliable, so I’d have to follow up more. I don’t really have the desire to do that right now.

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

What do you mean you don't really have the desire

westcoastpatriette (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:20PM EDT (link)

to do that right now? Dontcha know you have a duty to do all of our research for us? (Just a snarky joke…) :)

Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise His name in the dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the timbrel and harp. Psalm 149:1-3

Nobody likes my conclusions anyway.

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:24PM EDT (link)

So there :P

I love snark…

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

 
 

Here is a link that provides specific language as to exemptions

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:38PM EDT (link)

directly from the Obamacare law. Certain religious sects will be allowed to file for exemptions from Obamacare, the Muslim religion is one of the few. This brings up the current position that Catholic hospitals and universities cannot exempt themselves from the free contraceptive mandate, even when any of those institutions self-insures. This is an outrage that Muslims and the Amish, for example, can be exempted from the entire law, but the Catholics are just crap out of luck, even with just one small part of the legislation.

Link?

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:43PM EDT (link)

Did you forget it? I’d like to read it. Thanks.

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

Ooops! Here is the link NT

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 1:15PM EDT (link)

Well done, Scope!

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 1:40PM EDT (link)

So, if for no other reason than being able to claim exemption to O-care, we could see hoards of people converting to Islam and/or Christian Scientology.

Sounds like the ridiculous kind of decision that this admin would make! “Let’s honor freedom of religion via conscientious objections for a few, and pick the few, and deny the same freedom to the rest of the population”.

Ugh, please let's not make our side look stupid

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 1:50PM EDT (link)

When we associate with lunacy just because it fits our narrative it just makes us loony.

The exemption is exactly the same as the one for social security that was created with Medicare to exempt the Amish. Muslims do not qualify for it and neither do Christian Scientists.

lapert, you might want to read the article provided at Scope's link above first

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 2:02PM EDT (link)

before making that kind of statement. And by all means, please follow it through to the section in O-care where the language of the law provides this precedent. That’s linked in the article, BTW.

If you disagree at that point, then come back and provide a substantial reason as to why you disagree.

Because that 'article' is wrong

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 2:14PM EDT (link)

I read it, it is wrong. For Muslim’s and Christian Scientists to be exempt they would have to be, per section 1402(g)(1) of the IRS code, a “member of a recognized religious sect or division thereof and is an adherent of established tenets or teachings of such sect or division by reason of which he is conscientiously opposed to acceptance of the benefits of any private or public insurance which makes payments in the event of death, disability, old-age, or retirement or makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care (including the benefits of any insurance system established by the Social Security Act).” Islam does not object to the social security framework.

Is that substantial enough for you? It takes all of five minutes to learn that the exemption is exactly the same as for SS and Medicare and maybe another five more to learn who that applies to today.

Fair enough, lapert, but I'd ask

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 2:46PM EDT (link)

that you get a grip, please. The smugness of your answers is a bit irritating, okay?

BTW, I am extremely familiar with PPACA. I did know that the possibility of exclusion for religious sects existed. However, after reviewing your answer, the statue within the law, and quick reference to the beliefs of Islam, I’d have to agree that they have no basis on which they can claim this exemption.

Fair request

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 2:55PM EDT (link)

I apologize for the smugness. It just frustrates me when any gibberish on the internet suddenly becomes evidence – it too easily give ammunition to those that want to dismiss legitimate objections to obamacare or his foreign policy decisions.

Understood, lapert

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 3:07PM EDT (link)

And I say thank you, because I learned something new today. The possibility and potential for various groups to obtain exceptions under O-care I was aware of. The stipulation associated with SS I had overlooked, completely and totally. I’m actually glad to learn that this exists, because it may become valuable down the road if we have groups that want to claim access to one provision, such as SS, but claim a waiver to other, such as O-care.

So thank you for bringing it up. And I mean that.

not so fast..read this

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 3:16PM EDT (link)

http://www.horowitzfreedomcenter.org/2011/10/13/muslims-exempt-from-obamacare/

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

yes, I was just going to say that there is still a distinction

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 3:26PM EDT (link)

between the two. I haven’t checked out your article yet, but I will. As far as I can tell, the religion of Islam does support the idea of social safety nets for the poor and elderly. So they would have no objections to social programs such as SS.

But O-care pertains to health care and medical insurance, and that is where the distinction could be made to support exemption from it, because they do see this as being entirely different.

I’ll go check out the article now.

kowalski, I think we should just add this to the list of reasons to appeal O-care

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 3:44PM EDT (link)

It’s the “subset of law within a law” context that I mentioned earlier, and another example of how really messed up this piece of legislation is.

 
 

If you want to understand what it is actually about

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 4:38PM EDT (link)

If you want to learn what the healthcare sharing ministry exception is actually for (instead of some stupid notion that it applies to Muslims) you should look into the Samaritan Ministries International,

lapert, correct me if I'm wrong, but

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 4:59PM EDT (link)

the argument you’re presenting is that they can’t claim exclusion to O-care and inclusion to SS based on the statutory requirements of the IRS law connecting O-care to SS. Is that correct?

On the surface, I would agree. However, it is a proponent of the Islamic faith to provide social safety nets for the elderly and the poor. Yet it is against the proponent of “takaful” included in the Islamic faith to be a part of risk-taking activities such as insurance because they claim this to be equal to gambling.

Carrying this a step further, they do however stipulate that it is within their faith to form cost-sharing entities that defer risk, which operate the same way insurance would operate. They are just forming a risk-pool with other members of the Islamic faith. That’s all.

I think this ends up putting the situation in the context of a subset of a law within a broader law, which more or less means that it would leave the ruling of intent up to judiciary discretion.

We don’t have any precedents set on this so far…or not much to speak of, at least. Until we do, all we have is speculation on both sides.

In theory

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 5:08PM EDT (link)

In theory they could establish a cost sharing ministry that qualifies per the law.

The problem is the law requires that the cost sharing ministry must have existed continuously since 1999 (section 5000A(d)(2)(B)(IV)). I know of no such existing arrangement currently so creating one now won’t give them an exemption.

Is that just within the boundaries of the US, lapert?

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:14PM EDT (link)

Are their health care sharing ministries that have been established in other countries prior to 1999 that could be expanded to the market of Muslims in the US and could this be a means of gaining access to this provision?

Is that a possibility?

I don't know

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 5:21PM EDT (link)

I don’t know if there are any internationally that would meet the qualifications and could establish itself in the U.S. I think that is at least theoretically possible.

 
 
 

lineholder- Here is one section

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:32PM EDT (link)

of the linked Horowitz article from above-

“Where do American Muslims stand regarding the individual mandate’s religious exemption? Under a strict interpretation of the Koran, which forbids acceptance of public or private insurance, they are exempt, under this loophole. However, since the great majority of American Muslims pay Social Security taxes, and receive Social Security benefits; they don’t qualify for the religious exemption. Nevertheless, PPACA rules offer a situation where American Muslims could qualify for the religious exemption. If an individual is a member of a “health-sharing ministry,”-a religious non-profit organization in which members contribute money to cover the medical expenses of those in need-they are exempt from the requirement to purchase Obamacare.”

I believe the Scientologists are the ones that don’t believe in medical care or medicine, correct? So they have no need or use for any health insurance. The Amish and the Mennonites have long taken care of their own. They care for the elderly in their own homes, and the communities band together to pay for medical expenses. Remember when the 7 little children were shot in an Amish schoolroom in PA back several years ago. One little girl survived bullet wounds to the head, but was left in a somewhat vegetative state. The family took her home from the hospital, and they as well as the others in the community resolved to care for her, for as long as she lived. I don’t know if she is still alive or not. They are a very proud and personally responsible people, and they care for their own unquestioningly.

I don’t know this but I would think the Muslims, through their Immams at their mosques, may also care for their own as to members financial obligations. Would that not qualify for a “health sharing ministry”?

From what I’ve read, Muslims can participate in insurance programs, but they are required to return any portion of claims paid that exceed what they have personally paid into the policy, or they must donate the excess to charity. Therefore they can accept an amount equal to what they have paid into for SS and Medicare, correct? The question is, what happens if they incur medical expenses for a major heart attack or cancer. I would guess that the members of the mosque would pony up the amount due for the medical expenses.

I still question why the Catholics were denied an exemption from the contraception mandate, even when some of the Catholic organizations self insure.

All I know for certain, Scope, is that

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:08PM EDT (link)

there isn’t a lot of legal precedent to draw from on this issue with Muslim exemption. We’re getting into some uncharted territory.

If they accept Medicaid and Medicare…both of these programs pertain to health insurance. We can do an apples to apples comparison on that, but we can’t with O-care and SS. I don’t know how they can claim an exemption for O-care but also claim inclusion into Medicaid and Medicare. That’s seems totally contradictory to me.

I’m not sure why the left has chosen to deal with the Catholic church in the manner that it has. I think Catholics do have a basis to challenge the mandate. Whether they will do that or not is the question.

The left does have a value system…it’s just so twisted and distorted that it makes no sense to me for the most part. In their value system, if you are loyal to the cause, regardless of what it might cost you in other ways, this is rewarded. If you fail to be loyal, this is punished. So there’s always this fear of retribution, even amongst themselves, that seems to be going on.

lineholder- This will not be a popular comment for some

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:49PM EDT (link)

but I don’t remember the Catholic Bishops coming out against Obamacare when it was being debated. I remember a Catholic Sister (Nuns take a vow of poverty), being present at the Obama bill signing ceremony, and she was awarded one of the signing pens as a gift for her support. That same Sister was the head of 3 PA Catholic hospitals, and was making a hefty salary in that position. Not long after Obamacare passed, those hospitals were sold off.

There were a bunch of faux Catholic organizations that were birthed even before Obamacare was on the table. The philosophy was that you can vote for those that are pro-choice, and you can support the liberals, because they have a much greater cause in looking out for the greater common good. Pelosi, Kerry and Biden, all Catholics, were a part of the faux Catholic community that bought into the morally relative argument of the libs.

I still have a major problem with Obamacare mandating that the Catholics will just have to live with their decisions, but, some of them asked for what they are now getting. Again, I go back to the conservative sentiment- First they went for those that had no affect on me, and I said nothing. Now they are coming after me. Wow is me, boo hoo.

Yep, Scope. That about sums it up.

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 7:08PM EDT (link)

Just to make things clear to other people, your comments on this topic aren’t meant to be derogatory to devout Catholics and neither are mine.

But given the left’s value system, sacrificing religious beliefs for the sake of The Cause…that’s simply part of the expectations that exist to meet those loyalty standards.

They’ve done the same thing with the CBC and even with Unions in a couple of cases. That way of thinking is alien to me, so it took me a while to wrap my mind around it, so to speak. But that is exactly what they do.

 
 
 

Christian Scientists, not Scientologists.

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:23PM EDT (link)

re: don’t use doctors.

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

 
 
 

Lapert, quit twisting the argument

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:03PM EDT (link)

Can muslims be exempted from Obamacare if they are a member of a healthcare sharing ministry? Yes. Can Christians be exempted if they are a member of a healthcare sharing ministry? No..because their is no religious objecting to insurance.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

I'm not so sure about that, jamesm

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:11PM EDT (link)

Given the description of a healthcare sharing ministry and how it operates, it’s the same thing as insurance except the risk-pool includes only other Muslims.

I think it depends on how a judge interprets it. If the judge rules that the healthcare sharing ministry is a form of insurance just like any other form of insurance, then there could be a basis on which their claim for exemption might be denied.

 

You are wrong

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 5:12PM EDT (link)

See again you have no idea what you are talking about. The Samaritan Ministries International were one of the groups who lobbied for the health sharing ministry exemption. Nowhere in that exemption is it required that you have a religious objection to insurance.

Why don’t you actually read the law before you say something else that is completely wrong.

No. It is really simple

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:34PM EDT (link)

Just because one group lobbies for something does not mean that another group is not entitled to the exemption. You judging that a devout muslim is not entitled to a religious exemption from Obamacare seems like it will end up in court.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

I'm just applying the law

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 5:39PM EDT (link)

Sorry, but there is no basis in the law for them to take it to court for an exemption. The qualifications are pretty specific – you find me the Islamic health sharing ministry that has been in existence since 1999 and we can talk otherwise you are just spouting nonsense.

The law has the religious exemption

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:49PM EDT (link)

The religious exemption applies to any person who is a member of a “recognized religious sect or division,” with “established tenets or teachings,” that would forbid that person from accepting public or private insurance.

Surely, a devout muslim would claim this exemption. If they were denied someone would undoubtedly sue.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

No that isn't the exemption

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 5:53PM EDT (link)

You left a bit out there didn’t you. The entire language of the exemption requires that you object to the entire Social Security framework. Devout Muslims have never done this before, it is highly unlikely they are going to do it now and if they did it even more unlikely that the court would look favorably on it as they have been pretty stringent on these exemptions in the past.

For the record. The requirement for an exemption is that the religion be:

“conscientiously opposed to acceptance of the benefits of any private or public insurance which makes payments in the event of death, disability, old-age, or retirement or makes payments toward the cost of, or provides services for, medical care (including the benefits of any insurance system established by the Social Security Act)”

This mandate has been ruled unconstitutional so

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:00PM EDT (link)

we will see what the Supreme Court says. Any exemption wll not matter if they rule it is unconstitutional.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Can there be any question

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:49PM EDT (link)

that this president bows over backwards.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Not if you just make stuff up

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 1:21PM EDT (link)

of course there is no doubt i you make stuff up to fit your narrative. The reality of course is that this exemption does not apply to muslims at all, is the same general exemption created under social security to exempt the Amish and the only religious sects that have ever qualified have been Christian.

Prove it

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 2:05PM EDT (link)

The poster has supplied a link. It seems that a muslim could claim an objection. If you have proof they cannot then please supply it.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

See above

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 2:18PM EDT (link)

Supplying a link on the internet does not evidence make. The exemption is based on current rules for exemption from Social Security that was put in place when Medicare was created to protect the Amish. Islam does not qualify for that exemption, never has. They don’t object to social security payments.

Health Insurance is the religious objection that devout

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 2:28PM EDT (link)

muslims object to not retirement. Theyn consider insurance as a form of gambling. The IRS code is different then the Obamacare law. The Social Security Act does not bar muslims from claiming an exemption from from Obamacare.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

So you didn't even read the law

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 2:37PM EDT (link)

To gain a religious exemption from obamacare you have to meet the definition of an eligible religious sect that currently exists in the IRS code (section 1402(g)(1)) – which requires that you object to all social security payments as well.

The text is in section 5000A(d)(2) of the law.

Under PPACA.. muslims would be exempt

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 3:10PM EDT (link)

If an individual is a member of a “health-sharing ministry,”they are exempt from the requirement to purchase Obamacare.The provision mandating health insurance does not go into effect until 2014.

There is no doubt that they have a religious exemption. They would also be able to collect Social Security payments,

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

You have no idea what you are talking about

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 4:30PM EDT (link)

So now you think Muslims share medical expenses among themselves?

You clearly have no clue here.

That doesn't hold water. Lol

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:18PM EDT (link)

In addition if a muslim buys Sharia compliant insurance then they would be exempt from ObamaCare. (taxes, mandates and penalties)

.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

On what basis

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 5:24PM EDT (link)

On what basis do you think that? It’s not based on what the actual law says but you have clearly shown that you don’t know or don’t care about grounding your statements in reality.

Religious liberty for one

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:38PM EDT (link)

If they were denied the exemption a court fight would ensue.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 

You can't compel a devout muslim

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:40PM EDT (link)

to buy insurance. It would be unconstitutional

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Want to bet

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 5:44PM EDT (link)

How many devout muslims do you think have exemptions to auto insurance requirement to drive? What do you think there chances would be of having those requirements rules unconstitutional?

You have taken you argument a long way from your initial post claiming that obamacare somehow demonstrated how he bent over backwards to muslim to here where you are creating some odd constitutional argument that they couldn’t be compelled to follow the law but I guess that is what happens when you have no idea what you are talking about/

This is why Obamacare is at the Supreme Court

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 5:52PM EDT (link)

I believe the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Driving a car is a privelege. That’s mixing apples and oranges.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Not at all

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 5:56PM EDT (link)

The constitutional argument you would be making applies just as much to auto insurance – if the requirement is unconstitutional because it violates first amendment establishment clause or equal protection by treating some religious beliefs differently than others it would not matter whether it is a mandate or a law that only applies when you exercise the privilege of owning a car.

I take it you don’t recall you constitutional law class all that well, do you?

lapert, that must be quite some advanced degree you have,

demsaresatanic Sunday, February 26th at 6:01PM EDT (link)

microeconomics and constitutional law.

@ demsaresatanic: "lapert, that must be quite some advanced degree you have, micro economics and constitutional law."

trickamsterdam Sunday, February 26th at 6:11PM EDT (link)

I knew it.

lapert = Romney (double major @ Harvard, MBA/Law)

I haven’t followed this argument on the thread enough to see who’s right or wrong, but since it’s clearly Romney hiding behind the anonymity of the Internet, I have provided you w/ another reason to dislike him. :)

trickam, lol,

demsaresatanic Sunday, February 26th at 6:21PM EDT (link)

that explains it.

 

trickamsterdam- Get it right please

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 7:10PM EDT (link)

The leper is a woman, in the mold of Helen Ready. I am woman watch me roar. I suspect she wears pinstripes in the day then goes home and changes into her black studded leather pants, all while worshiping at the alter of the Jane Fonda feminazis. She is very very quick to claim that anyone she doesn’t agree with just doesn’t have a clue. Go back up and follow the thread. She claims that the Samaritan Ministries International could get an exemption from Obamacare. Here is a link to some info on the Christian organization she brings into the argument. The claims that the exemptions for SS and Obamacare have no basis in religious arguments are beyond the pale. They are arguments for those that she hopes don’t look into the valid information. In all, Pelosi said that we would have to just pass Obamacare to see what was in it. I suspect if the law stands, and we are all obligated to the mandates, we will see many of those invisable fill in the blank sections of the law filled in by the liberals that will have us all living under the philosophies of Ezikeal Emmanuel, and his participation on the death panels.

Oh, you just don't know what is good for you

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 7:31PM EDT (link)

So you still know nothing about who I am – not surprising. At least it is good to see that you are over the whole Perry infatuation and on to the next one.

Anyway, you once again show off your ignorance as you type but I’ll do you the favor of correcting you. The Samaritan Ministries International is one of the groups that lobbied for the Healthcare Sharing Ministries exception which does not require that you have a religious objection to insurance – look into it, they are not only well within the pale they are 100% accurate. There is a separate exemption for those who have conscientious objections – that is the same exemption as the one that has existed for social security and medicare since 1965, originally created for the Amish.

But I know none of that means anything to you, you are all emotion no logic so I’m sure you believe that the healthcare law was written to give muslims some sort of unique exception that will help them take over your little mind.

 

Legally speaking

aesthete (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 8:59PM EDT (link)

None of the legal challenges to ObamaCare being looked at by the Supremes and advanced by state AGs are based on 1st Am grounds (not that this red herring introduced by jamesm had anything to do with the original point, which was whether or not ObamaCare was biased towards Muslims, or somesuch nonsense). It is fine for a person to be against ObamaCare on religious grounds, of course, but from a legal standpoint that is not the argument being advanced in the courts.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

 
 
 

Nope

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 6:46PM EDT (link)

My post-graduate work is solely in economics. My knowledge of the law is just a hobby.

 
 

This law is probably toast

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:06PM EDT (link)

You make an argument in favor of the invidual mandate. Supreme Court will decide. I would disagree with your reasoning. Liability insurance is required if you damage another vehicle. It is not required for your own car. Obamacare is a requirement not because you would damage someone eses body.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

We will know in a few months

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 6:50PM EDT (link)

The individual mandate may very well be ruled unconstitutional, I have my doubts but we will know soon enough.

But that is immaterial to the argument you are making here. First, you need to read better, insurance is a requirement if you own a car – not for your own car (at least in every state I have ever lived, maybe there is an exception). But that doesn’t matter for a first or 14th amendment argument about how it treats religion – which is presumably what would be required to make the argument you seem to be pushing (probably unknowingly) on behalf of devout Muslims (as far as I know I haven’t seen any of them complain about it).

Auto insurance?

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 7:47PM EDT (link)

That’s not you’re best argument. That would get you thrown out of court. Lol.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

You don't seem to understand

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 7:56PM EDT (link)

You are the one who suggested that muslims could challenge the healthcare law based on their religious beliefs. If that were so, the same exact argument would apply to auto insurance as those arguments don’t apply merely to laws that are requirements for everyone.

No..there is an exemption for their religious beliefs

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 8:17PM EDT (link)

and I believe that if Obama is re-elected then HHS will right rules to make it clear that devout muslims are excluded. They left a path and then after the election they will drive a truck through it. (I do not think muslims will need to challenge.) If a muslim did challenge there would be a court fight.
Auto insurance and insurance under Obamacare are two separate things. To clarify: Liability insurance is purchased by the owner of car in case of damage/injury to another driver/auto. Liability is the only requirement. There is no requirement for the owner of their car to pay for insurance to cover the damage to their own car. Obamacare requires a person to pay for insurance for their own body..not someone elses.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Ah, so we have another new story

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 8:24PM EDT (link)

So now your story is that after reelection they would rewrite the regulations to include muslims – something they aren’t asking for. So it isn’t that they bent over backwards to accommodate muslims as you implied in your original post many stories ago but it is that you think they will change it on their behalf in the future – based on, well nothing other than your own paranoia.

That is nonsense-Rewrite? Obama apologizing

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 8:44PM EDT (link)

after our soldiers are killed is ridiculous. That is not “bending over backwards”? for muslims. How about pressuring Israel for unreasonable concessions to muslims who want Israel’s extinction? How about bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia? Anyone with half of half the intelligence of mental midget knows that Obama “bends over backwards” You have also misstated my original post. Let me post it for you again. I wrote this:

Can there be any question that this president bows over backwards.

Let me answer: No

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

In the context of this thread - yes

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 8:56PM EDT (link)

Sorry, but you asked that question in the context of a false suggestion that muslims were given an exemption to obamacare. They were not. That you spent as long as you have trying to manufacture a story out if that would conform to your view that he bends over backwards and fit it to the health care realm just speaks to how you allow your biases to blind your logical thought process.

Sorry, muslims have been given no special treatment in obamacare – and that is all that is thread is about.

Can there be any question that this president bows over backwards?

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 9:27PM EDT (link)

Again the answer is: No

The rest of your post is self serving. Good try

I have already gave my views in this thread. Again, Obamacare is probably toast.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

This post is just self serving

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 9:31PM EDT (link)

Your entire post is just self serving, good try.

lepert.. lol

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 9:40PM EDT (link)

Don’t have an original idea. Ok fine. I give

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 
 
 
 
 

leper- Do you ever enter any discussions

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 9:25PM EDT (link)

particularly here at RS without immediately name calling with those that you disagree with? Are you so in love with your own ideas and opinions, that no other ideas or opinions have any credibility to you? Do you not have the slightest clue that you appear as an arrogant self promoter most every time you post? Or is it your goal to be nothing more than a flame thrower here at RS. There are those that can’t get much attention unless they ask for it in unfortunate ways, like a child throwing a hissy fit because mom won’t buy him that toy. Your arrogance is breathtaking.

Yes I Do

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 9:28PM EDT (link)

To answer your question. I reserve my arrogance for those who deserve it.

 
 
 

In other words...

aesthete (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 9:01PM EDT (link)

proof for your claims is unimportant since, hey, it’s gonna happen anyways?

Have you ever heard of “begging the question”?

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

 
 

leper- Your arguments are getting weaker with every reply

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 8:18PM EDT (link)

There is no federal mandate that everyone buy auto insurance. The auto insurance mandates are state laws not federal ones. Many do decide to not own automobiles, such as in NY, because auto insurance rates are very high in that city. They use public transportation. Even those that don’t participate in auto insurance will still be required into purchase health insurance. They don’t have the opt as do those that choose not to own a vehicle.

You are still a fool

lapert Sunday, February 26th at 8:29PM EDT (link)

You are still a fool Scope. You do know that the establishment clause applies to state laws as well right? You do realize that merely not having to buy a car would itself not be a defense if the mandatory auto insurance laws violated the establishment clause, don’t you?

Ok, I know that are rhetorical questions – of course you don’t know.But if you want to humor yourself why don’t you try and find a copy of the Fall 2010 Loyola University New Orleans College of Law Journal of Public Interest Law – it has an interesting, if hypothetical, review of the question.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

NT, it's the "taking precedence" part of your comment that

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 1:58PM EDT (link)

I think some Muslims would object to, much more so than people of Judeo-Christian faiths.

Do you ever wonder if the reason that judges are inclined to rule in favor of Muslims is because they know that if they don’t, the Muslim could easily choose, within the context of their religious beliefs, to take the law into their own hands and exact their own brand of “justice”? I’m not saying that all Muslims would do this, because I don’t believe that is the case. But it could be a matter of uncertainty for the judge, couldn’t it…not knowing who would and who would not do this?

I do wonder about that sometimes…if judges are trying to prevent a certain amount of that from taking place.

We all have to make that decision.

NightTwister (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:37PM EDT (link)

We don’t allow modern-day Assyrians or Incas to sacrifice their children to Molech. Oh wait, yes we do. It’s called abortion.

If you were being forced to have an abortion as they do in China, I’m pretty sure you’d object as strongly or stronger than Muslims do with their beliefs. I think Christians would object just as strongly depending on the issue.

I think many judges these days are wimps and care more about political correctness than adjudicating according to the law as written. Unfortunately, this is the area where people are least involved in politics. In Colorado, we can vote judges out, but people never do. Most don’t even know their names. Yet judges can have a much greater affect on how we’re governed that those in the other branches of government.

“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Actually, Germany, France, and the Balkans

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 4:05PM EDT (link)

all have > 5% Islamic populations.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

 
 

Classic head in the sand logic!

WillWong (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:28AM EDT (link)

Obviously you have not heard of the saying in Europe….Jihaddhists there do not need to wage jihad. Just outbreed the Europeans. And with the Europeans negative population growth rate, those guys are darn right!

I've heard the same bigoted rhetoric about Mexicans here....

Dave_A (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:38AM EDT (link)

I have little care or tolerance for folks who complain about legal immigration, or who feel threatened by the choice of an immigrant population to handle their disputes internally according to their traditions, rather than using government methods.

So long as they don’t violate the law of the nation they live in, they have every right to have their disputes resolved by their religeous leaders instead of filing suit in a court of law.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

 
 

Dave A, sure thing, so long as Muslims are only a minority

demsaresatanic Saturday, February 25th at 4:38PM EDT (link)

they are no problem at all, just ask the Europeans.

And what about the areas in Europe

littlehouse18 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:22AM EDT (link)

where non-Muslims are not allowed?

You mean like the areas in the US where certain ethnicities dominate, and others are seen as unwelcome....

Dave_A (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 6:41AM EDT (link)

Bigotry exists…

Immigrants tend to concentrate in groups of similar populations…

Still not cause for the absurdities some folks post, or the belief that Muslims are trying to ‘take over’…

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

Dave A- You miss the fact that

Scope (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:16PM EDT (link)

those ethnic groups you refer to that band together in various communities mostly don’t practice a religious doctrine, which also encompasses a political doctrine. The poles, the germans, the hispanics haven’t ruled that if you steal you will have your fingers, or hands cut off. They don’t participate in the practice of stoning adulterers to death. They don’t cut the heads off of what the Islamists refer to as infidels. They don’t participate in honor killings.

Your arguments seem to consider that all Muslims follow the exact same rules/beliefs. Unfortunately there are in fact those that are “radical Islamists,” the 9/11 hijackers are the best example.

 

Dave_A this is a red herring

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 12:35PM EDT (link)

There needs to be a level of discernment to have a genuine discussion on an issue. To make a case of racism or bigotry against a group implies that the group making the claim does not engage in racism or bigotry. The question is: Are muslims killing christians in the middle east just because they are Christian? Answer: Yes
Are Christians killing Muslims just because the are Muslim? Answer: No . So your argument is this thread is clearly bigoted against the truth.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

As an OIF Vet: My question for Mr Santorum, on this subject....

Dave_A (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 3:15AM EDT (link)

What would you have done differently, to convince the Iraqi government to allow us continued combatant immunity?

The sticking point that caused the absolute-withdrawal, after all, was that the Iraqis demanded any remaining US troops be subject to Iraqi law – without immunity for legitimate actions on the battlefield.

In that situation, we essentially wouldn’t be able to leave our bases, much less engage in combat, without risking arrest in the event that an Iraqi citizen who we couldn’t prove to Iraqi courts be an insurgent was injured. We would have been combat ineffective.

My questions to you, are these:

1) Do you think that the failure to secure combatant immunity was the result of the Obama administration’s lack of interest in trying to stay, or the Iraqis desire to ‘run their own show’?

2) How would your negotiators have done things differently?

P.S. Good luck in the primaries – I hope you win.

Economic illiteracy does not serve our cause – seeing inflation where there is none, claiming ‘the deficit’ is raising the price of oil, or adhering to conspiracy theories such as the notion that the Fed’s purpose is to enable government spending….

The truth is just as damning to the Democrats – namely that their policies are the reason that the very ‘speculators’ (futures traders) they demonize are bidding higher prices for oil.

Good question, 5s nt

aesthete (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 4:07PM EDT (link)

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

 
 

In Iraq, the die is cast

renl57 Saturday, February 25th at 6:51AM EDT (link)

The new Iraqi Constitution (which Bush accepted without complaint) includes this:

“Islam is the state religion and a basic foundation for the country’s laws, and no law may contradict the established provisions of Islam.”

That means that the Iraqi Christians are going to be living as second class citizens under an Islamist regime.

So my advice is quite different from Senator Santorum’s. While it would be too diplomatically embarrassing for any American President to say it, what Congressmen should be advising the Iraqi Christians to do is get the heck out of there.

 

Doesn't the Bible Say Anything About Lying?

mattyp Saturday, February 25th at 8:54AM EDT (link)

I’m sick and tired of the “Obama was just filling and arbitrary campaign promise” meme coming from cynical conservative politicos. Obama made a campaign promise based on an agreement that was signed with the Iraqi government in December of 2007 under President Bush.

Of course, the people he’s talking to will never fact check him, so Mr. Santorum can say whatever he wants.

 

Obama tosses a bone here, caves there.

johnt Saturday, February 25th at 10:16AM EDT (link)

He approves the hit on OBL,[how could he have denied it?] and then stands by while whole nations go radical and murderous.
Go back to the 2009 Egypt speech, the baclward step taken then was the warning of what Obama intended. It’s the one step back, two steps forward method.
By November there won’t be much left, either in Iraq or Egypt, probably not much changed in Syria or Iran except for the worst.
The Senators intentions are appropriate, but if the ballgame isn’t over we are at least in the 9th inning.
In any case Senator, good luck and God bless.

“a man’s admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him”. Tocqueville

 

Why did you jumped on the Smear Newt campaign?

WillWong (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 11:42AM EDT (link)

When the MSM and Romney used Newt’s March 21st 1986 Special Order Speech and took a few clips out of context to smear Newt as anti-Reagan, why did you jumped on board and questioned Newt’s loyalty and support of Reagan?

This smacks of opportunism on your part. On the contrary, Newt did not pile it on when you were attacked by tbe Romney-Paul tack team and in fact baled you out on a few occassions when you seem hell bent on sticking both shoes into your mouth on the question about contraceptives.

Sorry, i cannot support you because I do not think you have the vision or the skills to turn this country around. But I do need you to help stop Romney!

 

Speaker Gingrich and Senator Santorum it’s wonderful to see you both writing here.

Ann2012 (Diary) Saturday, February 25th at 2:15PM EDT (link)

Speaker Gingrich and Senator Santorum it’s wonderful to see you both writing here. I’m going to post this on the topics that each of you started.

I really admire and respect both of you, in fact during the 1990s when I became interested in politics, the two of you along with John Kasich were my three favorite people in politics. And now two of you are running for president!

At first I supported Newt and wanted to see Rick as VP. but have recently changed to supporting Rick as president and would love to see Newt as VP. I wrote and explained my reasoning for this change of heart in another topic. In actuality, I would be happy whichever one was at the top of the ticket, it’s just that I think Rick has a better chance of winning the general election at this point.

Why I’m writing today is not to comment on your respective posts but to implore you both to team up and stop splitting the conservative vote. When delegates are proportioned this may not be as much of a problem since you can combine your delegates at the convention. But for winner take all states, you just make it much easier for Mitt Romney to win.

After super Tuesday whichever one of you has the most delegates and/or state wins and higher poll number please work together by making a deal behind the scenes to team up either as President/V.P and/or with the promise (in writing if necessary) to leave the race and endorse the other if you are given the opportunity of working on a project that is most meaningful to the one that will step down from the race. I noticed that Rick Perry was promised the opportunity to work on a 10th amendment project if Newt became president. This is the type of thing I’m referring to.

Please don’t let ego stop you two from combining forces and winning in November. It’s obvious that Mitt Romney and Ron Paul have made some arrangement with each other. Ron Paul only attacks Newt or Rick. If they did team up, Romney as President with Ron Paul as Vice President it would make perfect sense.

Since Romney knows he will never have the enthusiasm of the conservative base he will compensate with Ron Paul’s base, namely the youth vote who are usually moderate to liberal, and they are almost cult-like in their devotion to Ron Paul.

It’s a great strategy actually, that’s why I worry so much that our conservative candidates will not do something similar to ensure that they win the primary. I’m sure I’m not writing anything that you both haven’t considered but what concerns me is that I remember when Newt was in the lead awhile back, he mentioned on television making common cause with Rick Santorum but didn’t elaborate further. I don’t know if Rick Santorum will start to get overly confident and think he doesn’t need Newt.

Just remember, “pride goeth before the fall.” You need each other, so work together and you can reach your collective goals, don’t work together and you may lose to a better organized Romney/Paul collaboration and end up with nothing more than speaking tours over the next few years. It’s up to you to appreciate each other’s strengths and abilities, combine them and win!

 

Courage under Fire!

Hammer2008 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 2:01AM EDT (link)

Without evensomuch as reading this good post good Sir, you have re-confirmed my absentee-Michigan vote for you.

You Mr. Santorum, have been burned by the 2006 elections, yet have come back to pour out your love of country, of man, of life.

Life. Our lives. That is the crux of the matter, is it not?

Here, like a doctor, you have your hands on the pulse of out republic, nay! This world as it is…

Where Speaker Gingrich might speak with Reaganesque boldness, it is but for the headlines they would bring ~~ you, good Sir, come armed in the long shadow of Ronald Wilson Reagans’s quest for finality, for Truth, against what ails U.S.

May we all seek prayer for the persecuted. For the downtrodden, those underfoot of this centurty’s evil empires. May we ‘fight for all’. May we pray and act in those prayers for Mr. Youcef Nadarkhani, his sons, his betrothed:

http://www.prisoneralert.com/pprofiles/vp_prisoner_214_profile.html

Courage under Fire indeed.

*For #Neda

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Too much noise! “Noise! You’ll have noise enough before long. The Regulars are coming out.” ~ Paul Revere (April 18th, 1775′s eve…)


 

Why does this pablum keep getting promoted

Vegas_Rick (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 3:37PM EDT (link)

to the front page. As usual, Santorum tells what is needed with not one word included as to HOW HE would do it. Everyone here is fairly well informed and politically literate. We don’t need to be told what needs to be accomplished, we need to be told specifically how you intend to do it.

Are ya feelin’ me Rick? Mittens?

“God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.”- Billy Currington

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.

Because he's a Presidential candidate.

Bill S (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 3:41PM EDT (link)

Until they drop out, we’ll promote anything from the 3.1 candidates that are still in the race (and probably from those who dropped out as well).

“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins

I guess I understand that.

Vegas_Rick (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 3:46PM EDT (link)

But, you’d think they would take advatage of your courtesy by not wasting the bandwidth.

“God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.”- Billy Currington

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.

 
 

I empathize with your sense of frustration, Vegas_Rick

lineholder (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 4:03PM EDT (link)

Do I ever empathize with it! It’s like hearing that line from Nicholson in the movie “A Few Good Men” where he says “You can’t handle the truth!” over and over again.

I don’t think they mean it in that context, but that’s how it seems at times, doesn’t it?

I think they're trying to take a page from Obama's '08 campaign book.

Vegas_Rick (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 4:25PM EDT (link)

Don’t provide any specifics in an attempt to present the voter with a blank slate upon which they can project their impressions of his magnificence.

Instead, they come across as political and intellectual cowards.

“God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.”- Billy Currington

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.

 
 
 

The year of the creation of Islam - 622 A.D. (as we know it) being 666 years after the establishment of the dating method in use at the time the prophesy was written.

Ann2012 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 8:15PM EDT (link)

I’ve noticed a few people writing here stating that Senator Santorum illustrated the problems but did not provide the answers.

You do realize don’t you, that there is almost no answer to this problem. At least not an answer that the public would approve of. Or that those in power would even conceive of.

I think the last decade with our financial collapse, unwinnable wars, and unsustainable debt, have made us realize something that most of us would not have believed; we are not as strong or as militarily capable as we once thought we were. Those that follow Islam have figured this out, we’re just a little late to this reality.

I will posit the following: What if Christianity is true. What if the main purpose of our lives is to evangelize to the world and protect humanity from the influence of evil. What if it was up to us in Christendom to prevent Islamic power from spreading and entrapping people and what if we have failed miserably at this mission and are now facing the consequences of our failure.

Islam began around 622AD. In the 7th century Muslims conquered Syria (including Jerusalem), North Africa and Spain. Part of the Muslims’ success was due to the exhaustion of the Byzantine empire in its decades long conflict with Persia which is now referred to as Iran.

Byzantium is today distinguished from ancient Rome proper insofar as it was oriented towards Greek culture, characterized by Christianity rather than Roman paganism. And what’s in the news today; Syria, Israel, Persia (Iran). The more things change the more they stay the same.

Someone wrote in this topic, “Islam will influence the government of majority-Islamic nations…. There’s nothing wrong with this, and so long as these nations do not support terror, it’s not an issue for us to be concerned about. We are not at war with Islam.”

I disagree, I think we may very well be at war with Islam, the only problem is that our side doesn’t know it.

The following is quoted from a few different websites:

———————————-

According to the Bible, 666 is an evil number, and represents the beast, or the anti-Christ. It is interesting to know that many Muslims believe the number “666” to be a holy number. They also believe that the number 19 is holy as well. In knowing this I am not surprised that the number of terrorist that destroyed the World Trade Center was 19. They are called by many in Islam “the magnificent 19”. The number “666” is believed to represent the Quran and the Prophet Mohammed.

The beast and the fierce ruler. I have seen people do numerology studies on the Bible and every public personality, trying to determine who the beast is. Daniel made it clear that the beast was actually a kingdom, headed by a fierce ruler.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

If the beast represents a religion, and if that religion is Islam, the following statement would have to make sense. “The number of Islam is 666.”

Here is how this makes sense. To begin with one must think in terms of the calendar in use at the time of the writing.

The calendar we use today is a variation of the Annos Domini dating system which was not devised until 525 A.D.

If one were to analyze whether there is a connection to 666 to be found in a calendar, the more logical choice might be to consider the calendar in use at the time of the writing. During the period of the Roman Empire, the calendar most commonly used was the calendar created by Julius Caesar. It was devised in 46 BC and went into use in 45 BC.

Simply put, 45 years after it was put into use, Jesus Christ was born. We know this date (year) as 1 A.D. (Note that there is no 0 AD or 0 BC).

Some 621 more years went by bringing it to 622 A.D. – A total of 666 years from the first year of use of the Julian Calendar.

The year of the creation of Islam – 622 A.D. (as we know it) being 666 years after the establishment of the dating method in use at the time the prophesy was written.

Christian eschatology (the study of the last days) and Islamic eschatology are very similar, and it looks like current events in the Middle East seem to be unfolding to line up exactly with Biblical prophecies. According to Shiite Muslim theology, there needs to be a time of great turmoil and tribulation prior to the Muslim messiah’s (the Mahdi) reappearance. President Ahmadinejad (the president of Iran) wants to cause this tribulation so that Mahdi will come sooner.

According to an article from Worldnet Daily (1/6/06), Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said in a speech in Tehran that his “main mission” is to “pave the path for the glorious reappearance of Imam Mahdi.” He believes that his religious duty is to create chaos and bloodshed in the infidel world, in order to hasten the return of the Mahdi. Joel Rosenberg says, “[Ahmadinejad] believes the end of the world is just a few years away and that it is his mission to bring it about.” On many occasions Ahmadinejad has declared publicly that he wants to “wipe Israel of the face of the map.”

In an article in the Jerusalem Post (Aug 24 2006), he said he would “sacrifice half of [the population] of Iran for the sake of eliminating Israel.” If he has nuclear capability, that is a real threat. He would suddenly be in position to accomplish in about six minutes what it took Adolf Hitler nearly six years to do—kill more than 6 million Jews. Bill Warner has said, “nearly everyone can tell you how many Jews Hitler killed” but Islam is ten times worse. The fact is, Muslims have killed “approximately 270 million” non-Muslims since Islam’s inception.

I'm not sure that government by Christian numerology/eschatology is the best route

aesthete (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 9:26PM EDT (link)

for Republicans to go as a party.

OTOH… can’t be any worse than what we’re trying now.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

Trying to decide if you're serious, asthete.

acat (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 9:32PM EDT (link)

Hard to tell on this one…

Mew

——
self-portrait

Caveat Suffragator

The fact that you need to raise this question with aesthete

civil truth (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:19PM EDT (link)

…is a telling commentary on the state of the Republican Party today. :(

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

 
 

Christendom

Ann2012 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 10:25PM EDT (link)

aesthete, I think you misunderstood me. I purposely used the term “Christendom” in my post. I was not referring to the United States or a political party. Christendom is a term to describe all the Christians of the world and throughout history.

Ann

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 10:34PM EDT (link)

The person was mocking your post. Don’t pay attention.

Good post.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Jamesm

Ann2012 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 10:39PM EDT (link)

Jamesm, yes I got that drift.

Anyone reading my post though has to admit, Islam being created 666 years after the Julian calendar began is an odd coincidence.

The Anti-Christ might be hiding in plain sight.

Well there

jamesm (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 10:53PM EDT (link)

are many spiritually deficient people that would try to refute everything of spiritual value without applying an inquiring mind. I find your post curious and have not heard that before. I will look into the subject of the Julian calendar and the starting of Islam. I see your post as trying to be informative.

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Save yourself the time and trouble jamesm.

mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:46PM EDT (link)

This crap has been around for a couple of thousand years and it’s nothing but the equivalent of astrology but without the pretty stars.

Annie is a theological fruit loop.

Change

I agree numerology is nonsense as well as gematria

jamesm (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 12:01AM EDT (link)

I did not read her post as pushing numerology. It seemed like a simple count of 666 years. Even if it was correct that still doesn’t hold much weight. I think she was trying to be informative. Rough crowd. lol

“Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.” A. Einstein

Actuallly, it's only a rough crowd when someone

mbecker908 (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 12:20AM EDT (link)

troupes in and throws rank stupidity against the walls.

Change

 
 
 
 

Thanks for dropping by Ann.

mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:00PM EDT (link)

You can go back to your cave now. The world has been littered with pathetic little people such you for, ohhh, a couple of thousand years.

Change

Here’s a list of all the “pathetic little people” like me.

Ann2012 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:27PM EDT (link)

Here’s a list of all the “pathetic little people” like me. You might find it interesting.

http://christianity.about.com/od/independenceday/a/foundingfathers.htm

Sorry ditzy, you aren't anywhere near that list.

mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:43PM EDT (link)

And, “about.com” is an even worse source than Wikipedia.

If you knew even a little about either history or Christianity, you’d know that a number of people on that list were actually “Deists” not “Christians”.

Now then, go back to your cave and count something. Numerousists have been around for a long time and they’re about as reliable when it comes to an understanding of the Gospel as Jim Jones.

Change

 
 
 

Better to wait for the Lord's return

civil truth (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:24PM EDT (link)

…when He will enable us to understand prophecy. It is enough that Islam rejects Jesus as the Son of God.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

 

I once tipped $6.66 to a waitress

aesthete (Diary) Sunday, February 26th at 11:34PM EDT (link)

She didn’t look Muslim, but I guess she might have been.

CONNECTIONS EVERYWHERE OPEN YOUR EYES

In all seriousness, I got turned off to numerology after the Nth “this is exactly how the end times will happen go grab your shotguns and learn to live off the land” book sold on CBD flopped. Playing at Nancy Drew with Biblical eschatology/numerology with the Soviets (done for), the Iraqis (done for), the European Union (probably done for), and the other hodge-podge of historical baddies (Spain and the Napoleonic Empire come to mind) hasn’t had a single productive result for the church, and I don’t see how it is particularly relevant to the topic of Mr Santorum’s post or the critiques of same.

The Apostle Paul wrote a whole letter about getting oneself too wrapped up in Ragnorak, if I recall.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

Aesthete, that's one of the funniest comment title lines I've ever seen.

SoFiMil (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 12:11AM EDT (link)

Thanks for the laugh and good night.

www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com

 
 
 
 
 
 

since someone brought up caves...

Ann2012 (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 12:24AM EDT (link)

I have no idea why some people keep talking about numerology. 666 is from the Bible’s Book of Revelation in case they didn’t know.

But anyways, since someone brought up caves, I’ll tell you all about a cave on Mount Hira. This may be of interest to those who are interested in the history of Islam. For those of you who don’t like to read my writings you are more than welcome to not read them. But something tells me that you’ll read every word.

———————————————–

How Islam got started and why Islamic terrorism is nothing new.

Muhammad was born in A.D. 570 in Mecca (in what is today Saudi Arabia). Almost 600 years after Christianity began.

Muhammad learned about “the People of the Book”—Jews and Christians—in his youth. He felt troubled that his own people, the Arabs, did not have a book of their own. He did not understand that Christianity was a universal message which was to include the Arabs.

As he reflected despondently on this one day in a cave on Mount Hira (in A.D. 609 or 610), Muhammad said, the angel Gabriel appeared to him: “Recite: In the Name of thy Lord who created Man of a blood-clot. Recite: And thy Lord is the Most Generous, who taught by the pen, taught Man that he knew not” (Surah 96:1-4). The injunction to “recite” meant “make vocal what is already written,” says Islamicist Kenneth Cragg, which means it was the “sending down” of a preexistent book. (Qur’an is Arabic for “recitation.”)

The deaths of his wife Khadijah (15 years his senior) and his uncle Abu Talib (who also served as a protector) in 619 precipitated a crisis for Muhammad. He and his followers could stay in Mecca in perpetual jeopardy as a despised minority, or he could move to a new location where the fledgling faith could gain a foothold and grow.

Some of his disciples had succeeded in their missionary undertakings to the north, in a place called Yathrib, later called Medina. So in 622, Muhammad migrated to that city to form a new base of activity. The famous hijrah (emigration) occurred in September of that year and became the historical fulcrum of Islam.

Muhammad had anticipated a warm reception from the People of the Book—primarily the Jews—in Medina, since they too were “Scripture people.” Instead they treated him with “amused disdain,” and rejected his claims as “pretentious.”

These difficulties triggered a shift in Muhammad’s message. The portions of the Qur’an “sent down” during this period took on a more aggressive political and legal tone, in contrast to its previous poetic and mystical reflections. During the Medinan years (622-630) Muhammad consolidated Islam into a functioning, overarching political and religious community—the umma—and built a mosque. He also fashioned his revelations into principles, and administered the social, political, economic, and religious affairs of the Medinans.

Recitations regarding the People of the Book (both Jews and Christians) became more belligerent: “God fight them, what liars they are” (Surah 9:30); and “O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. God guides not the people of the evildoers” (Surah 5:56). He began telling his followers that the latest “revelations from Allah” were saying things like, “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home.” (9:73) Thus began Muhammad’s career of warring in the name of Allah. Those defeated by Muhammad were offered protection if they would submit to the dictates of Islam. Those that refused to become Muslims had the “choice” either to pay tribute or to be put to death. This is the apparent “peace and tolerance” Muhammad offered to non-Muslims in his treaty with the people of Khaibar and to others. Non-Muslims were the Dhimmis (the people of obligation) and, as such, were to be “utterly subdued” (9:29).

At the same time, hostilities with the Meccans continued as Muhammad raided their caravans traveling north. The Battle of Badr (624) proved decisive for establishing Islam as an aggressive force.” [T]he sword was unleashed and the scabbard cast away. The jihad, or appeal to battle, had been irrevocably invoked.” (Jihad also has a spiritual sense in Islam: the struggle of the self against veering from the truth.)

For all intents and purposes, the victory at Badr marked a critical stage in the evolution of Islam from a defensive to an offensive position.

By 630 Muhammad returned to Mecca in victory. He claimed the city for Islam and destroyed the idols being worshiped at the Ka’bah. This action introduced the notion of “manifest success”—geographical dominance—as a validating sign of Islam.

Muhammad died in 632AD, two years after the conquest of Mecca. The recitations were complete—the canon, so to speak, was closed.

———————————————–

Far from getting it wrong, groups like the Iranian Revolutionaries, the Taliban, and even Al-Qaeda understood the message of the prophet Muhammad far better than most of their nominal modern brethren. Islam is at its heart a militant political movement with a clear religious dimension.

The early expansion of Islam throughout the Middle-East and Africa was due to the correct understanding of its followers that the Dar-el-Islam must extend to all the corners of the earth by the command of the prophet, and that this expansion is to be achieved by fighting and conquering the forces of “unbelief.”

———————————————–

But in the 19th century, the Islamic Barbary states of North Africa could still make trouble for the infidel. They took possession of American and European commercial vessels, held their crews for ransom and enslaved other Christians. Our first war after independence was fought during the Jefferson administration against the Muslim pirates and kidnappers of Tripolitania, the Barbary War, in which U.S. Marines staged their first invasion of foreign soil. Hence, the Marine anthem: “From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli.”

———————————————–

As another bit of insight into his mind. Muhammed actually married Aisha when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. For this and other reasons Muhammed’s true character has been exposed. These facts can be found in the Hadith, a multi-volume source of Islamic law, history and commentary that is viewed as authoritative by Muslims, next only to the Qur’an. Both the Qur’an and the Hadith can also be found on the Internet.

———————————————–

There is other graphic information that I’m not going to post here about the torture and cruelty that Muhammad used in his pursuit of power and dominance over others. But suffice to say that what we call “radical Islam” is in actuality true Islam as conceived by its founder Muhammad.

———————————————–

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. … False prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you before hand. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.” (Injil, Matthew 7:15-17; 24:23,24; 15:14)

TL;DR

aesthete (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 12:27AM EDT (link)

but I’m pretty sure this is off-topic.

What do you think of Mr Santorum’s apparent proposal to re-invade Iraq to protect the Christian minorities which went largely unprotected during OIF (not by the EEEEVIL BOOOSH’s volition, of course).

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

TS;DR

Ann2012 (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 12:47AM EDT (link)

: )

 
 

I like your feistiness in standing up for your opinions

civil truth (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 2:29AM EDT (link)

…and not being cowed by vituperation. But do take a closer look as to whether you’re building on rock or on sand.

Some advice to smooth your time at RedState.

First, if you’re going to be quoting from other people’s works, it is important to provide links to the source documents/websites, so that those interested can pursue their inquiry further. (See the HTML Help link under “Help” at the top of each page for further info if you need it.)

Also, keep in mind that RedState is primarily a political site, not a religion site,

RedState is also a community.

As a general reference for the future, check out the Posting Rules (linked under Help” at the top of each page). There are also site moderators (those with red screen names – and I’m not one of them) to keep discussion within proper bounds. No guarantee they will apply the rules “fairly” though – that’s just the way it is.

Addressing your comments specifically, I think the way you have linked Islam’s founding date with 666 is a seriously flawed interpretative approach to the Scripture. Our focus should be informed living by the Word, not looking to decode hidden messages; the latter, which you seem to be taking in your earlier comment, is far more a Gnostic approach than Christian.

Have a good evening.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

thank you

Ann2012 (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 3:19AM EDT (link)

First of all, thank you civil truth for your very nice post. : )

jamesm is a very nice member too.

And thank you as well to Martin Knight. : )

Civil truth, regarding what you wrote about a “a Gnostic approach” since it’s getting late, I’d like to write back at a later date after I have given that some thought.

However I would like to take this opportunity to try and clear up a possible misconception.

I was thinking about the others who kept referring to numerology, and I went back and read what I wrote in that original post. You mentioned quoting other sites. If you notice I wrote on my first post:

The following is quoted from a few different websites:
————————
Although I didn’t list the sites, I was hoping that it was clear to people, that everything below that line was a compilation of writings from various sites. Even though the wording used “I” that was not me writing but the authors from those other sites. So if someone didn’t notice that I wrote that “the following is quoted from different sites” that could be confusing.

And one of the authors I quoted mentioned that they had seen other people using numerology. I do not subscribe to numerology, astrology or anything else of that nature.

What started this was that today I was thinking about the beginning of Islam in 622AD after reading Rick Santorums post again, and have thought for a long time that the mark of the Beast 666, as referenced in Revelation, was a number that was so close to 622. and since I know the violent (and in my opinion Satanic) history of Islam from writing about it on other sites, I did a search for a connection and found an author on another site that made that connection to the Julian calendar. It was he that I was quoting from for the remainder of that first post.

Thank you for your suggestions and advice. I do wish I could start a diary of my own which would prevent me from possibly going off-topic on another person’s diary. But as you know since you wrote to me before, I’m unable to do that at this point.

Although after tonight, I think there are some people here that are very happy that I don’t have access to my own diary, since I might be writing even more… : )

You do need to get in the habit of providing links, though

civil truth (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 3:33AM EDT (link)

1) Readers of internet blogs expect it

2) Attribution is important to give due credit to those whose labors you’re utilizing for your purposes (like footnoting research papers)

3) It provides some layer of protection to these folks against being misquoted/misinterpreted, through 4).

4) It enables readers to go back to the source documents so that they can independently assess your work.

And this time, I am turning in for the night.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

affirmative

Ann2012 (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 3:56AM EDT (link)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affirmative

: )

 
 
 

civil truth, I was away for a little while...

Ann2012 (Diary) Thursday, March 1st at 8:25PM EDT (link)

civil truth,

I was away for a little while but I’m back to respond to your last post.

——————————–

Definition of Gnosticism:
A prominent heretical movement of the 2nd-century Christian Church, partly of pre-Christian origin. Gnostic doctrine taught that the world was created and ruled by a lesser divinity, the demiurge, and that Christ was an emissary of the remote supreme divine being, esoteric knowledge (gnosis) of whom enabled the redemption of the human spirit.

——————————–

That definitely does not describe me. I’m not quite sure how you would have made the connection from my mentioning the Book of Revelation, Antichrist, 666 etc. to your following statement:

“…not looking to decode hidden messages; the latter, which you seem to be taking in your earlier comment, is far more a Gnostic approach than Christian.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=NIV

Revelation 1
Prologue
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

If you believe that the Book of Revelation belongs in the Bible, then one has to ask why it is there. Is it important to read and try to understand or at least speculate on what it might mean, I think so.

The very essence of Revelation is the fact that it is a “coded” message. The words above say, “blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”

If one doesn’t try to decode a coded message than how can they do what they were told to do, namely “hear it and take to heart what is written in it.”

I think there are two questions regarding Revelation, not only the meaning of the text, but also why was it coded. There is no other reasonable conclusion that I can see other than it seems to encourage speculation. And I think people have done just that, speculated on its meaning for 20 centuries. As long as it’s clear that it’s only speculation, I don’t see that as being an unchristian endeavor.

Ann2012, thanks for getting back to me

civil truth (Diary) Friday, March 2nd at 2:04AM EDT (link)

First, I was not accusing you of being a practicing Gnostic of the 2nd century variety or subscribing to that philosophy – nothing you have written indicates that you are other than a Christian follower of Jesus.

What I was referring to was the aspect of gnostic in the broader sense, which is the search for hidden wisdom accessible to a select few (which often acts in concert with the spiritual temptation of The Inner Ring, belonging to a spiritual elite, as C.S. Lewis so aptly described in his essay of that title).

Whereas, the uniqueness of the Christian gospel is that its message is accessible to all people of all walks of life – it’s totally public – although living out the gospel is a lifetime endeavor involving discipline, study, fellowship, etc.

As for the purpose of the Book of Revelation – John’s primary purpose was to provide encouragement for a church that was undergoing/about to under persecution under Roman rule. There is much that is mysterious, both in its deep mooring in Daniel and its rather transparent code for Rome in certain chapter. But the goal was encouragement.

And this book throughout the centuries since continues to serve as encouragement to churches in good times and times of persecution.

But I think it is a distraction at best – and at worse a temptation – to seek to come up with a thorough decoding. And given the failures of great men and wise students of Scripture through the ages who tried to tie Revelation to their times, I think we should tread very, very cautiously in trying to link these images to our present times.

And especially those decodings employing methods unmoored to generally accepted hermeneutic methods – and detached from the very Jewish milieu of the author’s mindset.

What is now through a glass dimly will be clear in retrospect. Until then, we have many clear tasks for the Lord to work on over which there is no need for decoding.

The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis

 
 
 

Salam Alaikum, Ann2012.

Martin Knight (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 2:51AM EDT (link)

Peace be unto you – I really mean that. :-)

Thank you very much...

Ann2012 (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 3:22AM EDT (link)

and peace be with you as well… : )

I'm a Muslim by the way.

Martin Knight (Diary) Monday, February 27th at 5:35AM EDT (link)

So I’m actually being non-ironic about it …

 
 
 
 
 

No Santorum

nomaster Monday, February 27th at 5:03PM EDT (link)

We don’t need Santorum the theocrat. We don’t need a Theocracy in America with the Ayatollah Santorum. We don’t need a theocratic tyranny like irans to lead our nation nor make us like Iran.
Vote Libertarian trim the deficit and end the political wars. Send Santorum to Iran. Elect Ron Paul the only pragmatic voice of reason. Why fear, fear itself, let’s be brave and enter a brave new world. Why fear Iran we have the military and nukes to crush and vaporize it. Time to reduce the deficit end Afghanistan, bring our military home.

Ron Paul would be a dangerous president in my opinion

Ann2012 (Diary) Thursday, March 1st at 9:14PM EDT (link)

I don’t agree with your opinion about Rick Santorum, and Ron Paul would be a dangerous president in my opinion, but you bring up something that I’ve been thinking about lately regarding our military power.

It doesn’t matter how many nuclear weapons we have to, as you say “crush them,” because in a situation like the Middle East we will never use them. Why, because our enemy is a subset of the general population. No one in this country will want to kill millions of innocent people, so all our weaponry will not win the war.

That is the problem we are having now. We don’t know how to successfully kill a population within the population that we are trying to protect. That’s why these wars have become unwinnable. In my opinion, the followers of Islam will try to use our decency in not wanting to kill the innocent against us as a vulnerability. It remains to be seen how this will end.

Regarding what you wrote:

“We don’t need a Theocracy in America with the Ayatollah Santorum. We don’t need a theocratic tyranny like irans to lead our nation nor make us like Iran.”

You probably wouldn’t be too happy then with how our country began.

http://www.faithofourfathers.net/index.html

The following is quoted from the above website:

Christianity and America

Last week, I heard it again: That oft-repeated urban legend that we’ve heard so often. This time, I heard it from a well-educated pastor: “Our founding fathers were not Christians. They were deists, atheists, and agnostics.”

Au contraire!

The pilgrims, as you will recall, were, Christians fleeing Europe in order to escape religious persecution, and they literally began their stay in their new land with the words, “In the name of God, Amen.”

The pilgrims were followed to New England by the Puritans, who created bible-based commonwealths. Those commonwealths practiced the same sort of representative government as their church covenants. Those governmental covenants and compacts numbered more than 100, and were the foundation for our Constitution.

New Haven (Connecticut) and Massachusetts were founded by Puritans who wanted to reform the Church of England, who later became known as Congregationalists. Roger Williams founded the colony of Rhode Island based on the principle of freedom of conscience. Pennsylvania was established by William Penn as a Quaker colony. Maryland was a haven for Catholics from Protestant England.

America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.

So, let us take a look at some of the lives and words of our Founding Fathers to see whether they were Christians or whether history has been revised.