The Tea Party Movement as a Libertarian Mob


a pencil necked lefty explains the Tea Party movement

With an update

There is an apocryphal story, truth be told it is more closely akin to a parable than a story, that tells much about the American character. As the story goes, an English nobleman is in America at some point in the eighteenth or nineteenth centuries, depending upon when you find the story, and he’s seeking directions or a room for the night or somesuch. He approaches an American farmer or rancher or backwoodsman and says, “My good man, where is your master.” The American solemnly stares and replies, “I reckon that sumbitch ain’t been born.”

Segments of the left are all a-Twitter, so to speak, today over an article in the New York Times Review of Books by someone named Mark Lilla titled Tea Party Jacobins. According to the left, this article explains the Tea Party movement and the electoral stomping the left anticipates taking this November. It has nothing to do with the Administration’s policies or its disdain for America rather:

A new strain of populism is metastasizing before our eyes, nourished by the same libertarian impulses that have unsettled American society for half a century now. Anarchistic like the Sixties, selfish like the Eighties, contradicting neither, it is estranged, aimless, and as juvenile as our new century. It appeals to petulant individuals convinced that they can do everything themselves if they are only left alone, and that others are conspiring to keep them from doing just that. This is the one threat that will bring Americans into the streets.

Welcome to the politics of the libertarian mob.

This is a very convenient position to take when you’re in Mr. Lilla’s position. The alternative is to admit that your entire world view is being repudiated by most of the country.

There is nothing new in this article, we’ve heard it all before. Let’s take a quick trip back to November 1994 via the indispensable Media Research Center:

“Some thoughts on those angry voters. Ask parents of any two-year-old and they can tell you about those temper tantrums: the stomping feet, the rolling eyes, the screaming. It’s clear that the anger controls the child and not the other way around. It’s the job of the parent to teach the child to control the anger and channel it in a positive way. Imagine a nation full of uncontrolled two-year-old rage. The voters had a temper tantrum last week….Parenting and governing don’t have to be dirty words: the nation can’t be run by an angry two-year-old.”
– ABC World News Tonight anchor Peter Jennings in his daily ABC Radio commentary, November 14.

“They are not voting Republican tonight, Mary. They are voting against a lot of unhappiness in their own lives….I think that it’s very easy for the Republicans to make the same mistake that the Democrats made in thinking that somehow we’ve been given this great mandate….They have got to be practical. They have got to compromise. They have got to meet the real needs of people. This is not an anti-government vote tonight.”
– U.S. News & World Report Senior Writer Steven Roberts on CNBC’s Equal Time, election night.

“What this Contract [with America] says is you can have hot fudge sundae for every meal and still lose weight. It’s a fraud and there’s a whole lot of Republicans who already are starting to forget where they were September 27.”
– Wall Street Journal Executive Washington Editor Al Hunt on CNN’s Capital Gang, Oct. 1

“This is a rotten time to be black. Blacks are just going to take it in the chops….Their programs are going to get eviscerated and affirmative action is going to go right down the tubes…Politics have moved right because a lot of middle-class people thought they were taking my money and giving it to poor black people, and they didn’t like it and they want their money back.”
– Newsweek Washington Bureau Chief Evan Thomas on Inside Washington, November 12.

“The Republicans have resorted to demagoguery and transparent bribes (like lower taxes). The legislature they promise seems a blustery, selfish, self-righteous desert.”
– Newsweek Senior Editor Joe Klein, October 31 news story.

The real objection that Mr. Lilla, and presumably those vigorously pimping his diatribe, is simply this. The world is a very complex and dangerous place. You’re dumb and vulnerable. The only thing standing between you and a very ugly death, presumably by way of second-hand smoke, carbon dioxide, trans fats, and salt, is an elite force of platonic philosopher-kings, or based on what we’ve seen to date something more akin to a secular Sea Org.

Now an angry group of Americans wants to be freer still—free from government agencies that protect their health, wealth, and well-being; free from problems and policies too difficult to understand; free from parties and coalitions; free from experts who think they know better than they do; free from politicians who don’t talk or look like they do (and Barack Obama certainly doesn’t). They want to say what they have to say without fear of contradiction, and then hear someone on television tell them they’re right. They don’t want the rule of the people, though that’s what they say. They want to be people without rules—and, who knows, they may succeed. This is America, where wishes come true. And where no one remembers the adage “Beware what you wish for.”

There you have it. In a nutshell.

This is not to say that Mr. Lilla is totally off base. He isn’t. But there is a reason I don’t blog about particle physics and string theory. It is the same reason that Mr. Lilla probably shouldn’t write about American culture.

The phenomenon Mr. Lilla describes is instantly recognizable to anyone familiar with American history. Individualism, one of those quintessential American traits that has been widely pooh-poohed by academics like Mr. Lilla, was something earlier travelers remarked upon. This is true whether they were foreigners, like de Tocqueville, or from the Eastern Seaboard as chronicled by the improbably named Dr. Grady McWhiney. The essence of this is the Scots-Irish culture that, to a great extent, has contributed greatly to American culture. The idea that ‘I know best for me and for my family’ resonates with most of us. Most of us want to be treated like adults by our government which means sometimes leaving us alone and always means not cramming policies down our throats.

This is not new. This is not libertarian. This is American.

Mr. Lilla wonders:

Ever since the Seventies, social scientists have puzzled over the fact that, despite greater affluence and relative peace, Americans have far less trust in their government than they had up until the mid-Sixties. Just before the last election, only a tenth of Americans said that they were “satisfied with the way things are going in the United States,” a record low.

And goes on to hypothesize that perhaps the failure of the Great Society to actually alleviate rather than enhance poverty had something to do with it. I think he misses the obvious point. The Great Society, as expressed through both the Johnson Administration and the Warren Court, began an unprecedented expansion of government into the private lives of citizens and an equally unprecedented assault on traditional American values and culture.

One key factor that Mr. Lilla omits from his jeremiad is religion. Much of the behavior that induces vigorous bouts of backside scratching on the part of Mr. Lilla is nothing more complex that what happens when traditional American culture which values independence and autonomy is no longer moderated by community moral standards. Moral standards which had historically been derived from Christianity. Divorce, illegitimacy, drug abuse, and solemnized buggery are all easily explained when governors are removed from a system which defaults to individualism.

Whether Mr. Lilla is correct on his assertion that once the racial dog whistles have stopped sounding and the REALLY SMART people are back in charge, that the Tea Party Movement will go away remains to be seen:

But what happens after the class president is sworn in and the homecoming queen is crowned? The committees dissolve and normal private life resumes. And that, I suspect, is what will happen to the Tea Party organizations: after tasting a few symbolic victories they will likely dissolve. This is not only because, being ideologically allergic to hierarchy of any kind, they still have no identifiable leadership. It is because they have no constructive political agenda, though the right wing of the Republican Party would dearly love to attach its own to them. But the movement only exists to express defiance against a phantom threat behind a real economic and political crisis, and to remind those in power that they are there for one thing only: to protect our divine right to do whatever we damn well please. This message will be delivered, and then the messengers will go home. Every man a Cincinnatus.

I think he misjudges the American character. I think that he’d better get used to the Tea Parties, just as the established political parties had better get used to them. I hope they remained allied with the Republican party but I know they will remain allied to conservatives within the Republican party. In that sense, in a worst case scenario I see them as spoilers. But they are a threat to everything the Democrat party stands for.

The current Tea Party movement has much more in common with the Perot phenomenon than anything else in recent memory. This time around, the populists have grown older and wiser. They aren’t searching for a man on horseback, or in the case of Perot a crazy uncle in the basement, but rather they are choosing individual candidates to change the way business is done in the Congress and in statehouses.

Technology, of course, is another variable Mr. Lilla seems intent on ignoring. In the past great causes were needed to bring people together in protest. When the immediate cause passed, and Mr. Lilla is clearly hoping that November will the end of that cause for the Tea Parties, the movement could not be sustained because of the difficulty in maintaining both intensity and contacts. That has changed. The Tea Parties are not only a political movement but the people are able to remain in contact via social media.

They may be Cincinnatus, but so long as Obama and his fellow socialists continue their assault upon America we will be at war. And Cincinnatus didn’t go home until the barbarians were not only defeated but publicly acknowledged their subjugation. And he came out of retirement at least twice.

If Mr. Lilla wants to know why we don’t listen to our masters, he needs to be reminded that that sumbitch ain’t been born.



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142 Comments Leave a comment

Libertarian mob, huh?...

rbdwiggins (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 2:38PM EDT (link)

I can’t wait for the explanation from the Left once the American people become fully aware that Liberalism/Progressivism is a cancer on American society.

“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan

Explanation will be: It's not our fault.

voxoreason Monday, May 10th at 10:52AM EDT (link)

If something’s wrong, it’s W’s fault. (Bush Derangement Syndrome). A sparrow doesn’t fall that it isn’t W’s fault. Okay, Bush got some things right (a topic to be avoided), while he got some things wrong (books on such mistakes could fill a bookstore, while Obama’s same mistakes, although worse – Tennessee flooding? What flooding? – aren’t even reported by the LSM), so he was a mixed blessing to be sure. Besides, Laura Bush was a great asset. (Hillary, still nothing on Iran securing a slot on the Women’s Rights joke at the UN? Something/anything?)

If W accidentally got something right (the surge in Iraq, which both Sens Obama and Biden voted against), voters have the utterly corrupt Obama admin to thank. “One of this administration’s greatest achievements.” (Personally, I built the Wall of China.)

What the libs lack in logic and any knowledge whatsoever of the Constitution, they more than make up for with their innate mendacity or strategic silence, at which Robert Gibbs excels (“Uh, I don’t know; I’ll have to check,” his version of “Let me be clear”). Iran’s citizens raise hell at the corrupt elections last year rioting in the streets by the thousands (or in Tea Party headcounts: a few dozen); note that Obama didn’t go off on a tangential 17-min rant in support of the Iranian people, but was about as talkative as he’s been at press conferences he hasn’t given for the better part of a year.

LA Governor Huey Long doesn’t get enough credit as one of the most influential politicians of the 20th century (while FDR gets way too much), as Long made the astute observation: the blacks are coming… and they’re going to vote… and they’re going to vote for ME! Correct on all counts. Corruption? Your guess.

The movie “All the King’s Men” (Broderick Crawford’s version, not the lame, elliptical Sean Penn puffery, although Penn’s snarling thuggishness, his greatest “asset,” serves him well) makes a nice allegory to Obama’s admin. But the ending in both versions conclude with a moral to the story. No “spoilers” here.

 

As Insty says:

cwilson (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 7:11PM EDT (link)

“Beware those rampaging libertarians. They’re gonna take over the government and leave you alone!”

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom — go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! –Samuel Adams

 
 

He is completely silent on the

4life (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 2:51PM EDT (link)

overwhelming presence of grey hair in the Tea Party ‘mob’. I think he mischaracterizes this disparite group. The younger ones may be of the ‘just leave me alone’ type, but the older ones are of the ‘I paid for it and I expect to get it’ type. Both object to government misuse of tax dollars. Both are united against the Democrats, not for who they are, but for what they are doing to this country.

 

This boy goes where his dogma leads him

E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:08PM EDT (link)

That makes him unintelligent.

Par for the left.

Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO

 

Outstanding, streiff

texasgalt (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:13PM EDT (link)

>> until the barbarians were not only defeated but publicly acknowledged their subjugation.<<

The coming subjugation must include a goodly number of the most crooked statists taking a long perp walks before the un-mastered.

Twitter Button from twitbuttons.com

 

mlilla@columbia.edu

Douglas Erley (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:16PM EDT (link)

I have started sending him stuff on the Tea Party. Hope you do the same. Why do all these kooks have email addresses that end in .edu. Whatever you do, don’t criticize global warning czar Michael Mann at mann@psu.edu.

 

libertarian mob is an oxymoron

Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:29PM EDT (link)

some here (a very few, one I can think of) that call themselves conservative agree with the left on this. some just don’t think people should be trusted with something as important as their own lives.

Molon Labe!

Don't take this ill of me,

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:40PM EDT (link)

but I agree with you about the oxymoron. Doubtful a mob that would metaphorically fit into a phone booth will be dangerous. Besides, the mob is made up of many shades of conservatism, and libertarianism is just one. Of course, HWSNBN isn’t even so much as the tail wagging the dog, but the fringe on the tail that collects all those burrs when he runs around the country.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 
 

Outstanding!

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:31PM EDT (link)

It behooves us all to make sure people who know and trust us, let them know that we support the tea party movement. They may know you are Republican or conservative, but by all means let them know where you stand vis a vis the tea party. It is to easy and cheap for the uninformed to assume that the lies about TP are correct. As long as the TP is some mythical bugaboo, the lies live on.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 

With respect

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:33PM EDT (link)

and as a member of the left you refer to, old friend, there are a number of things Lilla gets right here.

First and foremost, the references you make to the 1994 elections are quite telling. Many things went into the making of the Republican revolution, but one of the key factors was where the Perot voters went with their frustrations. They booted HW out in 1992 but didn’t exactly cotton to this Clinton guy either. In ’94, they allied with the Republicans, who learned to sing their songs a little better post-Bush I, and put the Dems out. And no, I’m not making light of the corruption issues and other associated end-of-power malignancies the 40 year House presented, but in the end, these were dissatisfied people in 1992 who were still dissatisfied in 1994.

But what happened afterward? The Contract went forward on some points, Clinton got smart and began to harness some of the centrist/retrenching wind, and then the Republicans went all in with the government shutdown and lost the PR fight. Perot showed up in 1996, but the energy from the storm was already fading. The deficit got better, as much from an improving economy as from anything else, and the rest of the Perot platform, the dissatisfied independents, faded away. By the time of the second Bush administration, the country had been nudged right a bit, the Republicans were in charge of Congress but mutating away from the spirit of 1994, and the party of Perot was down to Jesse Ventura and a few other independents who hitched their wagon to the remnant. Sort of like watching a hurricane transform into a tropical depression once it makes landfall.

Same thing with today’s Tea Party. I cannot see how it is sustainable – individual members are at odds as to what it even means, and there is no leadership to keep the edge sharp, so to speak. Hurricane Tea will smash into the Dem majority this year, Republicans will benefit, but either way the movement is going to make landfall. The Tea Party is not global enough in scope philosophically to take on many fellow travelers, so either the Republican party adopts it and it loses energy, or it turns on the Republican party once it can’t deliver for one reason or another either, and loses energy. The Dems will tack as time goes on, other issues will push to the forefront, and then, after altering the table a bit, yet another populist movement will have vented its power and disperse. Once to some degree a political movement has seized the reigns, you can’t campaign from the outside anymore, and it becomes your problem and your responsibility.

The other thing I wanted to mention (and I am going on too long) is that he is dead right about media. I would extend it to both sides of the aisle. So many people want to hear what they already believe. Many of my liberal friends don’t go outside NPR, John Stewart, and MSNBC. Many of my conservative ones swear by the Holy Trinity of FOX, Limbaugh, and Beck. The thing I love about being a regular reader of Redstate is that it forces me to reconsider my positions all the time, and sometimes even change them. Plus it’s like sitting in on a planning session of the loyal opposition :-) .

Anyway, I’m not completely in the tank for Lilla, but he definitely identified some aspects of this movement I have thought myself and taken into the bigger picture.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

Oh one other thing

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:43PM EDT (link)

to Kowalski,

Streiff, as a retired army officer I’m sure you see some benefit to expertise, as opposed to every man for himself. Which is not to say the country as a whole should run like the army, or that expertise doesn’t run both ways within a chain of command, but there are times when training and learning have quite a lot to offer to decision making. “Pencil necks” do have their uses, after all.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

so we need to learn how to live our lives Gengis?

Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:42PM EDT (link)

all we want from Republicans is to reduce government. I realize this is easily said and almost impossible for politicians to do. It is like asking Tiger Woods to make more bogeys, to not win so much.

But I don’t agree with you that the Tea parties and those who want to get back to a Constitutionally based country are just going to go away. We are going to align with people that agree with us and if they fail to deliver we will try to replace them.

Of course we want experts in important positions. I don’t want the chick that runs the drive-thru at Taco Bell to be the Defense Secretary. But only a statist would think that is what we want. We want a strong America, we want to get rid of the lobotomized fools from the Ivy League that would have learned more if they went to a good community college and had a decent upbringing.

Molon Labe!

A Constitutionally based country

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:45PM EDT (link)

is not a black and white term. And Scope (downthread reference) I hear you on “moral equivalence” but the founders themselves didn’t agree on what the Constitution meant. Interpretations vary, and within bounds, the voters decide at every level, and even the Supreme Court links to the voters via the appointment process.

But here’s the deal, Doc – there have always been folks who believe in what I think you mean by a Constitutionally based country. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. I don’t think you’re going to go away because you never left in the first place. And maybe this time you’re more organized, maybe. But the American public isn’t static, and what’s burnin’ peoples britches now usually doesn’t last more than a cycle or two. Name me a populist movement in the last 50 years that has had staying power. Heck, go further. William Jennings Bryan flamed out. The temperance movement held the hill for awhile and then was swept under foot. If you want to call the New Deal populist, not just popular, it obviously had staying power, but despite it’s popularity, it was lead from the top, not the bottom, and thus not populist by my calculations. Parties have tapped into populism (Reagan comes to mind) but, as Lilla points out, he was straddling that fence pretty effectively.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 

Gengis, your remark, "as opposed to every man for himself."

penguin2 (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:21PM EDT (link)

That’s a different meaning than people having the freedom to make choices for themselves. Your statement that preceded it “I’m sure you see some benefit to expertise,” I was wondering whose expertise? So-called self proclaimed experts that dictate to others how they should live their lives? Expertise gained in academic halls long tainted by the Left and their perception of how things ought to be? How the people should be controlled? That is what a Statist government brings us, let alone the effects of Marxism.

I do not think the Tea Party movement is going away, it may transform itself, and we’ll give it a new name, but it is a movement made up of a significant number of the regular folks, though the Left tries to paint them and us as a fringe, in order to marginalize them. Regardless of the name these groups are given, it is about our plans and efforts to take back our country from the Left.

Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills

Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Not the fringe

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:54PM EDT (link)

But a difficult group of cats to herd for any length of time. Plus, what’s going to happen when you start winning some elections, either by knocking off Dems or beating moderates or the establishment in primaries? There aren’t enough of you to run it all. Who to you ally with? What do you do when your guys have been there 4-6-8 years? Ask the 1994 Congress about term limits some time. A few of them kept their pledge, the rest stuck around to continue the fight. And became the establishment you’re revolting against.

Take the country back, if you can. But we earned it fair and square. At least, as fair as politics goes, I suppose. We didn’t steal it.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

In rereading

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:55PM EDT (link)

I want to clarify we didn’t “take” the country, just the government. An important distinction, I think. The country is what it is and no one owns it any more than another.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

I doubt that clarification will help much.

Steph C (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:09PM EDT (link)

The government thinks it is the country and that it owns it, lock, stock, and barrel. You should listen more closely to those you support. They have said often that what is ours is theirs.

I have read the entire debate but there is a question that still nags at me that wasn’t answered by any statement on either side.

How does one far removed from another, with no knowledge of that other’s life or circumstances or means decide what is best for that other?

We can only decide what is best for ourselves as individuals. We cannot decide such for any other because their lives are separate from ours. To claim such authority to do that is akin to slavery as we are no longer allowed freewill to choose as we see fit.

Even the criminal has the right to choose whether to break the law or not and knowingly does so with full knowledge of the consequences of his actions. Those who respect and obey the laws, regardless of how restricting and ultimately detrimental they are, will have less rights than the criminal. Should we all then become criminals because we refuse to be owned in a such a way?

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

What is being decided?

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:51PM EDT (link)

I’m not trying to be cute. We can obviously decide which side of the street everyone should drive on. We can’t or shouldn’t decide what color sweater your next door neighbor should put on.

And as voters, we can decide which way the country turns, by electing people to do just that. And of course, that impacts lots and lots of people, empowering some, constraining others. If 2010 goes poorly for the Democrats, it will be decided that some of the things I want will not happen and some of the things you want will. Have lost some fundamental freedom? Of course not.

I guess the answer is in what you think makes the social contract of a free society. It’s always a balancing act between freedom to and freedom from.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

But Gengis, I understand your explanation of electing....

penguin2 (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:05PM EDT (link)

the people that decide which “way a country will turn,” but how do you justify the deception that occurred in order to get Obama elected. IMO, the voters were deceived. See a few examples above, or maybe below, can’t tell right now. So first we have deception, about the true Socialist policies of Obama and those that he has in his administration, including Communist. Obama himself is a Marxist, and the media covered all the way for him.

But more importantly, the bills passed this past year have been opposed by a significant number of the American people. They are unhappy with the government and what your side has done. How do you justify going against the people. Not much honoring of the social contract there. Also, the efforts to destroy the Constitutional foundation of this country would seem to be a pretty serious issue that you are not addressing.

Going against the will of the people, as Obama has done, as evidenced by the arm twisting and bribes, etc. that had to go on to get the votes, is bordering on another kind of government. Dictatorship, totalitarianism, or at best autocratic rule.

Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills

Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

God bless you pen'

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:22PM EDT (link)

for thinking that leftists in general think there is anything wrong with what they have wrought.

In “fixing” elections.

In forcing legislation against the will of the people by nefarious methods.

In exposing abortion survivors in a dark laundry room.

In anything that accedes to their power and avoids responsibility for actions taken.

I defy any leftist to admit to what is being done to our citizenry and still vote for it again with a pure conscience. Ends justify means.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Redneck hippie, I do believe

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:27PM EDT (link)

that we are starting to get the idea that this guy will never be, as streiff said, “one of us.” To be one of us, you must first have some notion of what is true and honest and moral.

I also believe that it is getting harder and harder to remain polite.

janis,

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:37PM EDT (link)

“I also believe that it is getting harder and harder to remain polite…”

Are you sharpening your canines? Oh no, I forgot, it’s pins.

Well, I already got admonished for talking to Gengis, but I think he is interesting. When it gets harder and harder is when what comes out is a meme that we’ve all heard a gazillion times, like we want to take grannie’s social security away. They really need to come up with better material, eh?


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Oh, of course they do. But they won't. They deal in the same crap every single time. nt.

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:44PM EDT (link)
 

Tell ya what, why don't I clear the area

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:53PM EDT (link)

Enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for the invite, sorry I missed the early yawns that it was time to go home :-) .

And I will go back to lurking for awhile. Until next time….

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 
 

If it is against the will of the people

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:50PM EDT (link)

Then constitutionally, the people will put the Dems and then Obama out. And the system will have worked. The will of the people is expressed in the voting booth.

As for the pig-in-the-poke argument, well, again, if the American people feel deceived, they’ll throw the bums out. Neither is unconstitutional. There are some that might have felt deceived by Bush the so-called “Compassionate Conservative.

Arm twisting is a fine American political tradition. Ever heard of Joe Cannon? What about Andrew Jackson? Newt Gingrich wasn’t exactly all hugs and kisses. How about “The Hammer” Tom Delay?

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 

The color of your neighbor's sweater is exactly

Steph C (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 8:08AM EDT (link)

where this is headed. If we continue on this path, elections will no longer effect the government in a way that will make a difference as it will also control from whom we can choose. Every massive bill passed has infringed upon fundamental rights in profound ways pushing us toward that circumstance. While you used that an analogy as a way of minimizing the issue, this government, if allowed to continue on this course will do just that simply because they can as an example of how far they reach into our lives, or out of sheer boredom should it occur to those in charge.

It’s a cliche now but still apt: Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As penguin said above, this is being done by lies and deceit. Those doing the deceiving begin with a premise that no one really questions but accepts because it “sounds” good. At some point, they will no longer have to lie or deceive to steal ever more power but take it as they deem “necessary.”

If, as you have stated, this is what you want, then you also support the premise that government should dictate the color of your neighbor’s sweater.

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

On my mind as well this morning, Steph.

penguin2 (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 10:52AM EDT (link)

When I had read Gengis remark about the sweater, immediately the latest Nanny state infringement in our lives came to mind – the “crime” of using salt. Combine that with trans fat, and the cradle to grave regulations hidden in the bills they have already passed, culminating with their “glorious achievement” with the HC bill. The HC bill is not just about an insurance company choice, they know it and we know it. It is about the power of the State to intrude and control everyone’s life. Vassar wrote about it – we lost the power to say “no.” That is the ultimate destruction of freedom. The Left knows what they have accomplished, and if we, the people do not know it, we will soon enough.

Had the same saying float through my mind about power corrupting and absolute power, corrupting absolutely.

Though Gengis intimates that all of this is just political games and implies that it is a benign game, easily swept away come the next election, I think he is misleading on this. These are not ordinary politics as usual moves, IMO, this is much deeper, goes back further and the outcome is not intended to leave the country in the hands of The Constitution, nor the people free.

Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills

Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Exactly,

Steph C (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 12:04PM EDT (link)

Thinking about all the regulations that are already in place, it’s a logical conclusion, even while used as a ploy to minimize the argument.

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

Pen, janis, steph

redneck_hippie (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 4:43PM EDT (link)

I have a feeling gengis comes here to sharpen his arguments. Living where he does, his opinions probably meet head winds everywhere he goes.

It is really awful he can’t see the evil of central planning and its handmaiden tyranny. Would that all had ears to hear and eyes to see.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

We are definitely going to try and take the government back...

penguin2 (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:17PM EDT (link)

and you have made a good distinction with the difference between the government and the country. Though I tend to think that your side of governing has also overtaken a good portion of the culture and society, as well as the people who have been nurtured for dependency on the state.

I do have a quibble about what you call “earned fair and square.” If your candidates campaigned honestly and openly about their Socialist agenda and if they had not pretended to be centrist, pro-life, or any other number of ways for tricking the American people, they would not have won the offices that they did.

If the MSM, (forgive my believing them to be malignant) were honest in their reporting of the news, then there would have been different outcomes. If the media had not assisted in covering up the past of this “stranger in our midst” then the people would have been able to vote with a much more honest and open picture of the man and all those he brought into his administration.

You won the government by deception, omission and commission thrown in. The HC bill was passed against the wishes of the American people. The failed Stimulus bill indebted the nation, and paid off Democrat cronies.

Having Black Panthers in front of polling places intimidating voters, and then have this administration’s justice department dismiss the charges, certainly says something about the methods. Certainly the recount in Minnesota that helped Franken steal the election, would not bear honest scrutiny. Else why did he call the winner of a race in the State of Washington about how to win after initially losing on election night.

Even though this is politics, IMO, the election was stolen by a plan set in place a long time ago, with little helps along the way.

Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills

Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

It's an election

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:59PM EDT (link)

It’s not perfect. There are legions of folks on the other side that still wave the bloody Florida t-shirt. But we’re not talking Bush-Gore or Kennedy-Nixon margins here, even if everything you say is true it would appear we would have had enough. There are also Republican irregularities, historical and modern. But I just don’t find it helpful to focus on any of that because, in the big picture, it was a fair, free election that the people voted on. And it looks to be a fair, free one that votes some of these folks out.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 

Earned it "fair and square", did you?

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:18PM EDT (link)

If your definition of fair and square was having the MSM in the tank for Obama so deep that they refused to report on his associates, his involvement with the New Party in Chicago, his longstanding relationship with Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorhn, his association with Rashid Khalidi, his beliefs and attitudes toward our traditional allies, his true beliefs about late term abortion, his utterly radical plans for our country, his disdain for the traditions of America and her history……

And we’re not even talking about the money that was donated to his campaign from those in Palestine, Indonesia, Kenya, which was not returned. Nor are we talking about the New Black Panther presence at polling places in the Northeast. But we can talk about those things if you would care to present your defense of how all of those represent winning “fair and square.” And, by all means, please do include all the lies that Obama told the American electorate, the things he would do if elected and the things he wouldn’t do if elected.

Because he apparently mixed up which was which.

Janis, that is indeed one of the problems liars have....

penguin2 (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:35PM EDT (link)

they tell so many lies they forget what they said where and when, and when their disguise slips, they flounder all the more. “Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.” I look forward to the day that someone is able to swipe away the whole spider’s web.

There was not one darn honest thing about the election of this president to the American people. Ironically, his leftist base is also unhappy because he can’t quite grant them their utopia without disastrous consequences at this point. As for those that really understand who and what Obama is, we will seek to weaken his Leftist government come November. It continues in December, so I don’t think the resistance to the Socialist State and the move to total power over our lives, will stop.

I guess we have to remember Janis, the Left has their own definition of words, and it includes what “fair and square” means. Throw in how they interpret the word “stealing” with that.

Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills

Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 
 
 

Yes, penguin, Obama's lack of experience, i.e. "expertise"

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:07PM EDT (link)

in executive-type leadership, was touted as not important during the election in ’08. And now expertise is a big deal, something that is valued? My, how times have changed– and so soon, too.

Gengis, the thing that many don’t get about the Tea Party, and I see that you are one of them, apparently, is that we are all about rolling back things that have been done to this country in the name of “progressives” for 100 years now. This isn’t about repealing an unpopular amendment, it’s about finally seeing the logical and unsustainable results that that philosophy has produced. It’s about reclaiming what our Founders fought for, what so many of our fathers or grandfathers fought to defend and sustain just 65 years ago.

It’s about ditching the PC nonsense that is killing freedom of speech, thought and action, it’s about pulling back from the brink of utter and irreversible financial ruin (if it’s not too late) and taking the necessary steps to reduce entitlements and wasteful spending. It’s about taking back our country’s future from those who seek to reduce us to another socialist eurozone with reduced prospects for individual freedom and choice. This isn’t about Dems or Republicans, Gengis. It’s about Americans.

All well and good

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:18PM EDT (link)

Except that song is the same song every movement sings, to one degree or another. And what if something I think is as American as apple pie is something you think is a socialist/statist conspiracy? The voters, in the end, make that call to one extent or another.

Plus, someone like Rand Paul is not just going to show up at the Congress and throw all the moneylenders out. I’m all for reducing entitlements. You guys gonna vote that through? Really?

I’d also note some of those fathers and grandfathers were fighting for exactly what you seek to repeal. Some of those GIs liked the New Deal. Quite a few, actually, judging by how they voted.

Look, I’m not trying to pooh-pooh the TP. It’s legit, it has legs, it’s going to alter this election. It’s going to alter the Republican party internally. It may, if we are collectively lucky, bring about some financial accountability. Beyond that, I’m not sure how far you can bend things back. I guess we’re going to find out.

One side note, on something I said earlier to Streiff and TP cohesiveness. Do you think the majority of people who describe themselves as tea partiers want to repeal the last 100 years of social legislation? Because I think you might splinter quickly when you starting naming specific things, as opposed to the general idea of “taking the country back.”

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

I answer a lot of your questions here in another comment either up or down the page. The

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:24PM EDT (link)

comment you made about what if our side wins and we start getting rid of entitlements willy-nilly. Your side always pulls the same tired crap every time– you hit the panic button and start wailing that it’s got to be the most vulnerable ones who are going to get hit the hardest and right out of the box. There are many things we can do before we have to start talking about yanking ALL the entitlements to the elderly, veterans, children, the disabled and every single other group you want to yammer on about to do your fearmongering bit.

As to how far we can bend things back, wait and see.

Hang on

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:44PM EDT (link)

I’m not saying anything about the most vulnerable ones. I’m just saying entitlement reform is almost unvaryingly, from either side, unpopular. And I don’t think you guys want to yank ALL the entitlements, although some of your rhetoric (undo the last 100 years, e.g.) can lead to that logical conclusion.

Basically, I don’t think we’re going to fix the situation without some pain. But pain costs popularity. That’s not fearmongering.

As for how far you can bend things back, I’l see you on the field for that one. But I promise to shake hands first.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

How do you propose that we

aesthete (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 12:51AM EDT (link)

fix the fiscal mess that we’re in? According to many economists, we’re already around the upper limit of the Laffer Curve: if that is true, then raising taxes is not going to pay for all our bloated entitlement system. Leftists refuse to seriously consider cutting non-defense spending, and they still have other programs that they want to saddle us with. At this rate, “the rich will pay for it”, the left’s answer to how they will get us out of the hole they’ve dug, comes off more as a desperate hope than a genuine solution. Tellingly, the left has no detailed plan for how to rectify our bloated and expanding budget: as with any addict, they are quick to say, “just one more”, and slow to try a change. In Canada, New Zealand, and virtually everywhere that fiscal solvency has been achieved (for however brief a period), it has been done with reduced government spending, and painful restructuring of the entitlement system. These cuts were vociferously opposed by the leftists in their respective countries. Countries which haven’t heeded calls for fiscal solvency (including the US) are setting themselves up to become the next Greece. I’d rather engage in painful entitlement reform than end up in Greece’s place in 30, 40, or 50 years. If you don’t see the choice as being that stark, I would suggest that you aren’t being honest in your look assessment of the budget.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

The problem whenever anyone proposes entitlement reform is

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 11:47AM EDT (link)

that the Left always screams “do you want YOUR entitlement cut? If you, for the good of the country, say yes, then they use that to “prove” you do not know what is best for you, as they do, and therefore must be forced to do it their way “for your own good”. They always want to control you “for your own good”. That is the eternal question–who knows best what is best for the country or the individual. The problem with the Left is that they think that because they KNOW what is BEST FOR THE COUNTRY, that automatically entitles them to decide what is best for every individual in it. That they could be wrong on their premise is not even open to discussion. They just know that they KNOW!!!
But, forcing free people, who are unconvicted of any crime, is always wrong. Their solution will be to criminalize being free. And, if you think I am overstating the case, just read the rhetoric that is on the Left. You may try to dismiss them as the fringe, but they are holding offices in THIS administration!

 
 
 
 
 
 

penguin2

gunslingr45 Monday, May 10th at 8:23AM EDT (link)

the tea party may have little effect if they do nothing more than have parties. I belong to one in Indiana and I know if they would have come out and endorsed Marlin Stuzman, he could have won hands down.
That being said, I may not keep supporting it if they can not get their heads together and come up with a platform that means something. I am no Libertarian, but I do want conservatives who believe in something (Constitution) or they will be just another schmuck who falls for anything!

gunslingr45, yes there is the problem with splintering.....

penguin2 (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 9:43AM EDT (link)

the vote among the various activists groups. One of the most important things we need to do is find a way to stick together and utilize the influence and power we have combined, not separate. Primaries are likely the most affected and yours is a good example, we have to work hard to make sure that it is not repeated in the general, ie. voting for an independent and thus pulling votes away from the Republican. Our party is the one that gets hurt by those scenarios almost all of the time, even without Tea Party activity.

Our goal should be to work with the Tea Party activists to align with our camp.

As far the momentum and activism, I think it will hold and continue to grow, these are not ordinary times and what we are dealing with is not run of the mill politics. If people do not get that now, they will eventually.

Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. – Benjamin Franklin
When Good stands up to Evil, Evil blinks. – Vassar Bushmills

Conservative Education: Suggested Reading List

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 
 
 
 

Seems to be a pattern today with reigning & the reigns.

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:47PM EDT (link)

Your side is handing the reins to us. Reigning is not expressive of driving the buggy, but of the crown and scepter thing.


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Fair enough

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:51PM EDT (link)

Although I think better to say you will be taking the reins from us :-) . As things stand at least I expect you will, or come damnably close.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

We intend to take away the reins, plus

Beaglescout (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 4:35PM EDT (link)

After we have taken away the reins, we will take the reins off the people. We will take the choke out of the people’s mouth. We will remove their blinders. We will knock down the fences on the lands. We will take the harness off the people. We will take off the saddles. We will melt down your spurs into barbs, attach them to the cut up reins in a cat-o-nine-tails, and use them to whip you out of town. This is not a mere transfer of power. This is the beginning of the end of technocracy and statism.

“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”

–Alexander Hamilton

Yes, yes

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:01PM EDT (link)

And the 1994 Republican revolution was the end of such things so described. And 2006/8 was the beginning of the permanent Democratic majority. Waves are just that, waves. They have their cause, they have their end effect, they alter the landscapeto one extent or another, and they pass.

There are disenchanted voters out there, they will vote, but who is to say any group stays permanently mobilized. Probably some pencil neck who tries to make science out of history, and who is usually wrong.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

your side has a huge advantage

Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:45PM EDT (link)

open borders, NEA stranglehold on education, the lamestream media. You need to ask yourself how the conservatives ever get power.

Molon Labe!

A fair question I've been wondering

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:22PM EDT (link)

Is whether the reach of the “lamesteam” media actually outshines Fox, the most watched channel, Limbaugh, the most listened to radio, and all the other followers on.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

don't drink the Kool-Aid

streiff (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:31PM EDT (link)

CBS News — which is in the crapper as far as broadcast news is concerned — has nearly 3 times the viewers as FoxNews.

FoxNews is a midget in the media landscape. They are only the most watched cable news channel.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

Local CBS Chicago affiliate

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:56PM EDT (link)

is refusing to cover the senate election in Illinois unless Kirk stops talking about Broadway Bank.

Expecting to see their viewership tank, expediciously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sILM0oyax-w


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Point taken

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:56PM EDT (link)

I haven’t watched TV news in so long I forget it exists.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 

There are many, Gengisdon, who do not watch

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:36PM EDT (link)

Fox, listen to Limbaugh, or read the news on the internet. Then there are junkies like us…..

Many people are like my sister and brother in law, Republicans who do not watch Fox, listen to talk radio at all, and who get their news from cable TV such as CNN. Consequently, they are the sort who were disappointed to realize that, indeed, there truly ARE no conservative Dems when the HCR vote came down. To their horror and consternation, their congressman, Bart Gordon-TN 6th-Retiring and rewarded– voted “Yes” for it. They were so sure that because he was retiring and had nothing left to lose, he would do the right thing and honor the promises he had made to his constituents the previous year.

For me, I knew the second he announced his retirement that he would be voting “Yes”. That’s how so many of them roll. And I know that because I’m informed by conservative and realistic sources. For them? They keep believing the confusing bilge that comes from the MSM. Why, I do not know. But many still seem to think that if it comes from one of the alphabet sources, it’s still got credibility. So there you go.

And then there are extemists like me

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:07PM EDT (link)

who don’t own a tv. Got my Constitution, my Bible, my internet, my Mark Levin and, if I feel like it, my Orange Crush.

Don’t need Beck or Hannity when I got my peeps on Redstate.

Yeah, the thing about Obama going to war against Hannity, Limbaugh and Fox is hilarious. Way to cheapen the dignity of the presidency, Barry.


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Not to mention his underwhelming conviction that

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:22PM EDT (link)

things like XBox and Playstation 2 have a single thing to do with news and information. Or that he has no idea how to work an Ipod or Ipad, or either of the gaming devices that he’s apparently convinced also deliver the news.

I don’t work any of those things either, but then I’m not Prezdent. Nor did I make fun of anyone who didn’t email because his torture at the hands of the Viet Cong made it impossible for him to use the keyboard.

Obama

Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:44PM EDT (link)

the young radical probably cheered the VC on. He probably thought they didn’t do enough.

Molon Labe!

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

They are not handing us the reins, redneck hippie. They

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 4:03PM EDT (link)

are throwing away any possibility that Americans will allow them to keep that which they continue to abuse. Americans who are determined to be their own masters will take those reins and drive this country in the direction that they desire for it to go.

Gengisdon, as for “training and learning have quite a lot to offer to decision making” please consult with our own Cold Warrior about that subject. And Erick Erickson, too. Both are touting the benefits of the training and learning that many are benefiting from with the Precinct Committeeman Project and the Freedom Works training sessions.

We don’t have to be pencil necks to get the job done, we just have to be upright men and women who love our country more than we love our own egos. Can those on your side say the same?

'don and janis

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 4:27PM EDT (link)

Okay, you win. We’re grasping the reins that Ds aren’t handing us. Permit me to say that because of the leadership of the left, our job is easier than it would have been if Obama had decided to triangulate a la Clinton. Instead it is all left all the time. And the country is suffering mightily, along with other nations who left turned much earlier and more foolishly and uninterruptedly. We are somewhat fortunate here in that we can see where the socialist utopia leads, once again in Greece, as it has done elsewhere: complete collapse.

I lay the fault of all of this at Obama’s door. If he had any of the prerequisites of leadership, instead of lazily following Pelosi and Reid off of the cliff, we wouldn’t be here. Not that we mind taking control of the buggy at our earliest opportunity. Funny that in this respect we are going to be the ones who will not let a good crisis go to waste.


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Give this much credit, perhaps

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:12PM EDT (link)

There has been much said about politicians who are not true to their principles, who are only chasing votes, etc. The health care vote, in the face of conventional political wisdom, was done with the known probably consequence that political careers would be ruined and majorities possibly lost. There actually was a principle behind it. That’s what I voted to send them there to do. They did what I wanted. Now it’s on me and those that think like me to persuade my fellow Americans they were right. And if we fail, then they lose, and people of different beliefs go in and do what the people that voted for them think they ought to do. And that, to my way of thinking, is how it’s supposed to work.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

Credit where credit is due

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:27PM EDT (link)

Naturally, principles vary. We differ in our prediction of the outcome that necessarily follows from actions taken. Again, sooner or later you run out of other peoples’ money.

Greece, California, Illinois, and others as well, like Spain, Venezuela, Cuba, Portugal, Italy and so on. Reality bites the believers and nonbelievers alike.

Decades will be required to erase the damage in this country due to crushing debt and the dislocations being attempted.

Where I give you credit, and a large portion of it, is in willingness to observe and engage us. You can learn a lot by this open mindedness. How it will serve your side at all I fail to see. Well, I suppose if you reallly come here looking for chinks in our armour, you are welcome to visit any time. My view is our chinks are pretty insignificant. The chinks over yonder are another matter.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

I have some friends who think I've gone native

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:33PM EDT (link)

Of course, they live in San Francisco. I live in Kentucky. I am native.

And while it is convenient to disown President Bush and the 6-8 years of Republican Congresses, as far as I’m concerned I have one hand in my right back pocket and another in my left. I’m just picking which one I agree with more. This debt thing was a bipartisan process. Or a suicide pact, not sure which.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

Left pocket

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:58PM EDT (link)

It sounds like you are a pragmatist. Do you trust your eyes to tell you whom to trust on jobs and the economy? The 3 most damning graphs in modern American politics, in case you haven’t read it:

http://www.redstate.com/tjasko/2010/04/24/the-3-most-damning-graphs-in-modern-american-politics/

Seriously, if you are one of those people who votes for free government services, I suggest you are a fool who will soon be parted from his money, along with the rest of us.

Amnesty for illegals, cap and tax, higher taxes once the Bush tax cuts expire, VAT, amnesty on college loans. All that is the problem. We can’t spend and borrow our way to prosperity. And again, where will it ever end?


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

I don't vote for free gov't services

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:28PM EDT (link)

But I do (and this gets me voted off your island, I think) believe that fundamental to both life and the pursuit of happiness is access to medical care. How that should be arranged and how it is paid for is another question. But the way it works now doesn’t actually work.

And we can’t tax cut our way to prosperity either, not if it means we continue to borrow too. Basically I wish my party would offer tax increases with all the programs we want, and conservatives and Republicans would run on which programs they are going to cut/change benefits to make up for tax cuts. Earmarks and foreign aid are a drop in the bucket. The problems is that the people won’t actually vote for either platform.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

Ah, that's a false way of putting it, Gengis. We ALL

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:45PM EDT (link)

have access to medical care. What we don’t have is access to FREE medical care. I went to a doctor the other day who has never in his whole professional life accepted insurance payments for the treatments he offers. He’s a dermatologist. His staff will file your insurance as a service to you, but you are expected to pay for your treatment up front. And his prices are entirely reasonable. You want to know the real shocker when you go to him?

He knows exactly what every procedure and service he offers will cost you. He writes up the bill himself and tells you what he charges. If that were the case across the board, we wouldn’t need insurance. Or government interference in our medical lives. If we could change the medical atmosphere and get rid of insurance altogether, it would amaze us to see what things would actually cost us.

 

Dilemna,

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:51PM EDT (link)

expecting the taxpayers to be subjected to and to pay for entitlements they do not want. That is the way to authoritarianism, or the political wilderness.

Democrats did not win the political battle for government run health insurance. But they decided to go for it anyway. Bye bye Dems.

I hear they have marvelous social programs over in Europe. If I felt the way you did, I’d seriously consider hopping on over there.

The Democrats have not told the truth about the cost of their government run health insurance scam. If they had told the truth and that we would all pay for it in higher taxes and loss of opportunity, it would have been one thing. What we do have is a massive, inefficient, travesty that was rammed down our throats simply because Obama could not afford failure on his one and only accomplishment.

I have a close friend who voted for Clinton because he promised to provide health insurance. Clinton wanted to stay on the side of the American people. Obama, Reid and Pelosi don’t.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Take another issue and see how it plays out.

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:05PM EDT (link)

Let’s say the Tea Party empowers the Republicans to win 100 seats in Congress and 10 in the Senate. And then in 2012, Obama goes down to a Tea Party endorsed president. In 2013, this party proposes, in order to balance the budget, that entitlements must be slashed to the bone. Social Security kicks in at 75. No COLA. Medicare eligibility cut in half. Medicare too. Healthcare – gone. And this will balance the budget. 63% of Americans decide that’s too harsh. The New New Dealers spring up. Reps are getting thrashed at town halls. Skittish moderate Republicans are wavering. What will you say when the Congress votes its conscience and elections be damned. That they ignored the will of the American people, or they finally found their figurative balls?

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

You forget the most important thing

Jack_Savage (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:41PM EDT (link)

Your party has morphed from one who took care of those who *couldn’t* take care of themselves into one who takes care of those who *won’t* take care of themselves. We see the results of your efforts, and no one that is paying attention likes it.

Our job is to sort all that out. Finally. And we will.

Maybe that is what the Tea Party is all about.

 

That isn't another issue

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:53PM EDT (link)

It’s a fantasy created out of your worldview.

Conservatives know they will not be able to undo the damage in one election cycle. The problem isn’t that conservatives want to take away the safety net. There are mutitudes of good common sense plans that will do the job of sweeping away the wasteful detritus of central planning Obama is trying to erect. After we get the government back under control, and the markets and economy are allowed to recover, which will take time, the people will regain their confidence in government and participate more fully. This rogue government with its arrogant leadership is frightening the bejesus out of everyday folk who want nothing more than to go about their business.

I would suggest you visit as often as you need to until you can understand what we are about. We are not saying we don’t want government. We do not want big government. Yes, some libertarians would go further, but again, the libertarian wing is not wagging the dog.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 

Let's say, Gengis, that another scenario plays out off of yours.

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:53PM EDT (link)

Let’s say that conservatives take over both Congress and the White House by 2012 and the first thing they do is start dismantling all the non-profits and other organizations that keep sucking up tax dollars– like ACORN and all of its many faces. And then let’s say that the same newly elected conservatives also start taking apart all the unconstitutional bureaucracies that pry into our lives on every level. Bureaucracies that we neither need nor want, but which employ that many more government workers and pay all those workers very nice salaries with very good benefits. Ka-ching!

And then let’s really get all crazy and start reducing entitlements. Before we have to get as drastic as all the things you mentioned, we can get rid of the Earned Income Credit, a whole range of tax credits that enable nearly 50% of wage earners to pay no taxes, and then we start making sure that only citizens who are legal here get any benefits at all. From there, we can then discuss the best way to make cuts where we must. And maybe, too, we can also discuss how best to quit forcing people to participate in Social Security and Medicare by taking it from their paycheck before they even see the money.

Your plan features fear as its prime motivator– mine features freedom.

Looking at your suggestions

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:38PM EDT (link)

ACORN – easy sell, everybody trying to distance themselves now, small dollars

Unconstitutional bureaucracies – kind of vague, sticky wicket. I assume you mean DoEd. Probably elements of EPA, OSHA, FEMA/ATF, DoAg, etc. Maybe there’s tons of money there, but those cuts will be harder. You’ll be goring a whole lot of interests, and not just Dem ones. Some of that stuff will devolve on the states as well. Maybe medium dollars. Plus, again guessing your theory, the “freedom” that will come with less Fed regs will improve the business climate.

EIC – with a big enough majority, possibly sellable. medium dollars. Still tough – there are a lot of folks who vote or might vote Rep getting EIC these days.

Other tax credits – yep, if you keep cutting credits you will raise revenue. Of course, some meanies on the other side might frame it as raising taxes. Homeowners insurance is a big one, not sure if you want to take that bite though. I would join with you to revamp the tax code, toss out 95% of the exemptions. It’s gotten to the point it basically needs to be scrapped, not just reworked.

Maybe my math is fuzzy, and maybe that would buy us long term budgetary stability, but it seems a bit light. But it’s also 11:30 and I’m starting to get tired, so that’s as far as I can go.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 

Where the hell are you pulling this scenario out of

Leopard1996 (Diary) Tuesday, May 11th at 6:46AM EDT (link)

I think any conservative even during the social security debates of Bush were for a weaning off of some these loser programs. Sorry if social security was any other type of retirement benefit plan, the people running it would be in jail meeting their new boyfriend forcefully for the first time. Why couldn’t social security be set up now, to pay for the coming crop of seniors, and allow those that are just entering the workforce keep more of their own money and provide for their own retirements.

So like your boy Obama, can we get rid of the false choices of either provide social security and other entitlements or we burn them entirely.

“The accumluated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, “Save Us!”….and I’ll look down and whisper, “No”…The Watchmen

 
 
 

And by the way, there is a perfect comparison to

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:55PM EDT (link)

the way the Left operates as opposed to the way the Right does. That would be the cities of New Orleans and Nashville, Tn during and after their respective disasters. New Orleans featured state and local politicians crying and cursing the Feds for allowing the disaster to happen and many New Orleans residents sat on their butts and waited to be rescued or looted whatever they could get their hands on. The smart ones left and the braver ones stayed behind to help.

In Nashville, the leadership immediately took charge and started to work out what to do to rescue the citizens who needed rescuing, put out bulletins about which roads were closed, where to go for shelter, etc. And Nashville’s own residents looked to themselves to start the long task of recovery with the help of churches in the area and churches from outside who couldn’t wait to get in and help. It’s what they do best.

If you want to cut down on what the government needs to extort from us in the way of taxes, then cut down on the multiple bureaucracies that pry into every corner of our lives for fun and profit. No more nanny state means way less spending. Just getting rid of the Dept. Of Education would save ALL of us a lot of money and grief!

 
 
 

smack dab in the middle of the Jacksonian Belt

hickorystick (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:57PM EDT (link)

life must be real interesting for someone who was pro-Obama, right now. Do you feel like joining in with the native sentiment?

 
 
 

What principles, pray tell us, were your politicians acting upon

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:38PM EDT (link)

when they sold, bartered, and bribed their way to getting the vote for HCR in the first place, Gengisdon? If they were just “following their principles”, then why did it take the unseemly and disgusting spectacle that it did to get this beast of a bill passed? And did you send them to D.C. to include things like taking away the banks ability to do student loans under the heading of “health care”? Not to mention all the other things that they included in a bill that the majority of the American soundly despised by the time it was passed– against the will of the people.

What principles were they standing on then, if you don’t mind me asking?

 

they lied to get a chance to change the nation

Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:49PM EDT (link)

a true believer in socialism might hold socialism above a political career. To such a person, losing an election is just a result of accomplishing his goal. I don’t see why I should respect that, it is a tactic, nothing else.

Molon Labe!

I guess the question

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:07PM EDT (link)

is do you respect it more than a politician who votes according to the polls, or who abandons something as too hard if the opposition starts gaining tractions and he or she feels the heat election-wise.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 

Credit? For showing cowardice?

Moe Lane (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:15PM EDT (link)

The President threatened to withhold support to any Democrat who voted against health care rationing, and the quote-unquote ‘Blue Dogs’ / ‘conservative’ Dems crumpled. Not least because at least this way their path from Congress to a nice, lucrative Beltway Bandit position remains smooth and clear.

I don’t blame you for this, GenghisDon, but neither am I particularly interested in giving undeserved awards for intestinal fortitude in your party’s legislators. They’re largely craven, and it’s every man for himself at this point.

Good to see you, btw.

Moe Lane (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:17PM EDT (link)

Yes, we all gave him a rousing "Howdy" didn't we? nt

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:28PM EDT (link)
 

Hmmm

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:13PM EDT (link)

But if healthcare is in fact the poison pill, ending their political careers, what one earth could Obama do that would be worse.

As for the beltway gigs, I find it surpassingly hard to believe a former rep couldn’t find something one way or the other. They are, after all, rather connected people.

Hey, I’m not trying to overstate this. But true cowardice would have been to back down ASAP and try to do damage control for a year leading up to the election. There are 30 someodd Dems who could have claimed to be the vote that blocked healthcare reform. Good year for that.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

You call it "true cowardice". I call it "listening to the will of the people".

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:23PM EDT (link)

Potato, rutabaga.

But when Clinton did it

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:25PM EDT (link)

You (or at least conservatives) called it governing by poll and scoffed. In fact, Bush was always proud of the fact he didn’t know the polling. The will of the American people can be a fickle thing.

We just can’t win with you people ;-) . But I do acknowledge your rutabega.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

You are being disingenuous, gengis, and you know it.

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:37PM EDT (link)

There’s a huge difference in governing according to the polls by putting your finger in the wind and doing what you think will get you another point of popularity, which is what Clinton did.

Obama and the rest of your guys didn’t give a damn what the polls said. But it wasn’t the polls they should have listened to, it was US. We told them at the town halls, we told them at the Tea Parties, we told our senators, our congressmen, we told Obama over and over, we wrote, we called, we emailed, we literally did everything we could do to stop it.

And they forced it on us anyway. That is out and out tyranny. There is no defense for it, so don’t bother to make one. And I will bid you a not very fond farewell. You aren’t one of us and you aren’t one of the good ones. You are just the typical lib.

Actually, I have to (sort of) agree with Gengis here

aesthete (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 12:16AM EDT (link)

If I could divine some way to force leftists to stop redistributing our nation’s wealth to pay for their cockamamie social engineering projects, and it didn’t involve violence or the threat of the same, I’d implement it in a heartbeat, polling or “the people” be damned. There are some things that shouldn’t be left to the democratic process, and forcibly expropriating our freedoms to fund a favored demagogue’s pet project is one of those things, IMO. Indeed, what are the Bill of Rights, the Senate, the Electoral College, and the Constitution, if not attempts to curtail the detrimental effects of mob democracy? HCR wouldn’t have been any better had Obama passed it with 70% approval: it is still just as much a hindrance to our freedom to purchase healthcare as we see fit as it is with 40% approval.

I have no problem with Bush’s continued support of the Iraq War amidst a lack of support: it was, in retrospect, the right thing to do, and that’s what matters. Similarly, any serious solution to our budget woes will require unpopular cuts that will poll below 50%. Mind you, I’m perfectly willing to shove polling in leftists’ face when they lie about the popularity of their programs, but I don’t think that a lack of support for a policy precludes taking the steps to enact the policy amidst opposition. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater: Obama’s ideology sucks, but I wish our members had the discipline to put our interests (or at least cushy post-retirement think tank jobs :) ) over polling.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

 
 
 
 
 
 

GC doesn't send glorified yea/nay voters to DC to "vote on principle". I send them there to vote RIGHT

Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:22PM EDT (link)

principles. Bennett voted for the stimulus and advocated socialized medicine. Bye Bye Bennett.

Then I heard him defend his “career” in the senate. Another problem.. We are best served by citizen legislators that have more difficult careers.

Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

There should be a rule, GC

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:36PM EDT (link)

When a legislator has been in DC so long as to no longer resemble his or her picture posted on the government website, then they get booted. My favorite example of the moment is Jan Schakowsky, who has a 12 year old picture up and hasn’t looked like that for probably 25 years, at least. Probably they just hope their constituents don’t recognize them in the street.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 
 
 
 

Consodering his world view, I think Gengisdon hits the nail fairly squarely

Vassar Bushmills (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 4:36PM EDT (link)

on its head. Well said.

It’s the world view that is in error, and therefore, his whole analysis of a management/leadership and the true defintion of “skill positions’ fail. It’s best to contest Marx at the origins of his failures, his original premises, the soul of his insights, rather than dabble around the edges.

To say the Obama folks are incompetent (which they do seem to be in carrying out even the most simple of tasks and duties assigned them by the People…and I’d put the first 100 names of the Chattanooga phone book per, per WFB…to replace them and do a better job…still does not go to the scope of their original purpose, which has probably not yet been revealed. What we call incompetence may well be indifference, a different animal altogether.

It’s nice to see someone can articulate a view of skilled management so well. Wish I could stay, but I have fish to clean.

 

Yes

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:06PM EDT (link)

You can tell me I’m dead flat wrong all you want. You can call me misinformed, subject to emotion over reason, or whatever the popular dismissal of the other side is of the day. You are entitled to that opinion, fairly devised.

But you are dead wrong if you think I don’t love this country more than my own ego. Or that such virtue is solely posessed by your side of the argument. I respect your difference of opinion and do not think you hold those beliefs out of malice, ignorance, or other less than honorable origins. It is possible the same is true of those who disagree with you.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

agreed

streiff (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:17PM EDT (link)

everyone really needs to play nice with Gengisdon. He’s one of us but is too stubborn to admiit it.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

They are playing nice

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:27PM EDT (link)

I’ve only been called a statist once thus far :-) . And Streiff, nice critique.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 
 
 
 

On the authority of my having been an

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 4:11PM EDT (link)

actual Perot voter who was close to others who did likewise in ’92, I say the Perot phenomenon was hugely misguided. Those voters, as I did, have matured politically and will not spend their energy in a protest against the lesser of two evils in a general election. Never again. The Perot voters stood on principle, but did not have a real candidate. We have a two party system for a very good reason, and the British alternative shows that all too well.

Unfortunately for your side, in this coming election we will have principle and also candidates who will win. I don’t know whether we’ll take the senate or not, but we are doing what we need to do. Running conservative candidates in the primary and nominating the most conservative candidate who can win in the general.

Perot was a symptom of taxpayer unrest. The movement now is still true to that, along with a much enhanced sense of what went wrong with our party and what to do about it. Third party was a copout, and now conservatives are moving into the driver’s seat.

All respect, but you’re whistling in the dark.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Actually I'm bracing for the storm

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:23PM EDT (link)

If the movement can capture the apparatus of party and power without losing much of its intrinsic populism, then we’ll see. But that’s a rare feat indeed.

Plus, the bonus of being in power these days is an unsettled world, an eventual energy crisis, a whacked out budget, and a populace that doesn’t seem to ever want to tangle with entitlements but is averse to paying for them. If the Tea Party ends up being the cure for all those things, then I’ll be happy to put myself in public stocks and let you throw eggs at me. On some levels, it would be nice if the messianic claims on either side would ever pan out. Until then, I’ll settle for defending what I believe, same as the rest.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

Fair enough, I'll withdraw to my corner

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:45PM EDT (link)

but I do have to say, messianic claims seem to have come from your comrade only.

We of the tea party have no messiah, only our constitution and, for most of us, our Bibles, that we are subject to. I’d be in more agreement with you perhaps if we hadn’t been told that the last election would effect the rising of the seas. I hope you can admit that was over the top and ridiculous. Even being able to see Russia from the state of Alaska was not any kind of messianic claim although your guys tried to twist it into one.

What kind of messianic claim has Paul Ryan made? Marco Rubio? Jim Demint? Lt. Col. Allen West? Peter Roskam? As much as your guys try to Pin the Palin in the movement, your guys are flummoxed because we do not have a personality cult at this time.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

genghis kahn 1- redneck hippie 0

Scope (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:07PM EDT (link)

redneck, he early on said that he voted for the current government as it is construed. He said that with health care “obamacare” that they have achieved, was what he voted for them to accomplish. Your points are well worth the effort, for those that deny socialism/marxism as a form of government, as most here believe to be destructive to our American way of life. I personally believe that you should not have engaged Ghengis, right from the get go. He is artfully advanced in the language of Progressive propaganda. Weren’t Hitler and Mao initially seen as the saviors of humanity, the voices of social justice, until their “artful” arguments turned tragic once they were empowered?

To engage someone such as Ghengis is to take a long slow walk down the path of America’s destruction. They have adopted “moral equivalence” as their guide, or enabler, of a sinister goal. You can never win an argument with those that have fallen firmly into the mind game of “social justice” as a means to an end. They will always beat you on the ridicule, although stated in intelligent terms, side of those that do not give their stamp of approval to the end goal.

To give up your argument and say “Fair enough, I’ll retreat to me corner is a win for Ghengis. No?

No, because in my crafty RWC way I

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:12PM EDT (link)

kept on arguing. Read further.

I very rarely engage the dark side. Please don’t take away my cheetos.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 

ps- My main point is

Scope (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:19PM EDT (link)

just tell him to go pound sand. His views are not worthy of respectful discourse, even if he didn’t use bad language, or the racist meme. Fight communist/socialists wherever they are.

My way of saying go pound sand is

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:27PM EDT (link)

the Rule of Dave.

That’s probably why I so rarely engage the dark side. One, I know it very well as I once was one, and Two, most everyone I know is also an entrenched leftist, who I don’t choose to alienate by calling them statist fools. But, I’ve had enough cheetos for today, thanks anyway.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 

"Go pound sand" is something I don't agree with.

Steph C (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:20PM EDT (link)

Don’t forget the debate isn’t about who is debating the other side but in highlighting the differences between the two sides to those who read after.

If one were to judge this site by the comments alone, one wouldn’t realize the amount of traffic that flows through here daily, as most who comment are regulars. There are lurkers who need to know where we stand and be able to educate themselves and make their decisions based on the information available.

Not all lurkers are trolls or Mobies. I lurked for months before I signed up as a member and still lurked awhile longer before I wrote my first diary. I’m by no means a regular at writing diaries or comments but I read here often throughout every day

If we tell all dissenters to “go pound sand” what is disseminated to those who read but never comment?

I believe this debate was quite civil on both sides and worth undertaking.

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

Thank you,

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:35PM EDT (link)

I too, think it is worthwhile to engage the dissent as long as it is honest and civil. As for the trolls and mobys, Dave’s rule is all I give ‘em. Also, I don’t see much point in tearing down those who are on our side. So much more intellectually stimulating to take on the substance of opposing views.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Yes, redneck and Steph, you both have good points.

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:48PM EDT (link)

The other compelling reason to have been polite in this diary was that Streiff told us to be. That’s one that it is tough to ignore!

But you did it.

Steph C (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:54PM EDT (link)

;-)

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

I disagreed with him, Steph, but I was polite.

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:29PM EDT (link)

For me, anyway. No ad hominems, if you’ll notice, and no insults. Just statements of fact and questions.

I can’t help it if the facts are unsavory and the questions are, necessarily, pointed. :-)

 
 
 

You're welcome...

Steph C (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:49PM EDT (link)

I’m often reminded during these debates of Vassar’s diary about the “don’t give a damns”. It might not seem like we make a difference but I believe the majority leave here changed in ways we can’t see and may never know about.

“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics

 

Enjoyed it, Redneck

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:26PM EDT (link)

nt

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 
 
 

Come on, Scope

Gengisdon (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 10:22PM EDT (link)

‘To engage someone such as Ghenghis is to take a long slow walk down the path of America’s destruction.” That’s a bit much, don’t you think? I don’t think Redneck Hippie is trying to win here with this conversation anymore than I am – only an idiot would show up at THE blog for the conservative movement as a lefty lurker and think he’s going to walk away with a few converts.

But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’

 
 
 
 
 
 

I just wonder how long it took Lilla to get the "Question Authority" bumper sticker off his Volvo

WarEagle01 (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:35PM EDT (link)

Sometimes those things are hard to remove. And he’ll obviously never, ever need it again without appearing like a complete hypocrite.

“A wise, doughy leg with rich tingly experiences will always reach better conclusions than will a more tanned, muscular leg that hasn’t felt those thrills.” –Chris Matthews’ Leg

“The alternative to the awful extremity of abortion is the indispensable joy of introducing this flawed world to someone who might make it better.”–John Hayward (AKA Dr. Zero)

 

I love his job description.

swami7774 (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:48PM EDT (link)

“Essayist and historian of ideas” at Columbia U. according to Wiki.

It’s great how lib academics can make up jobs for each other and get paid for them.

Today, there is a name for the political doctrine that rejoices in scarcity of everything except government. The name is environmentalism.

 

Wow. Impressive and intelligent take down.

spainishirish (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 3:59PM EDT (link)

I imagine Mr. Lilla does in fact know that most of America has rejected his worldview. He just is too intellectually dishonest to admit it; in other words, he’s a typical left-wing liar.

I imagine we may be able to excise these people from academia and the media and other institutions they have corrupted once this all shakes out. That will be the real battle that will follow this fall’s revolution.

Yes, and won't he be so very disappointed to see that the

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 4:08PM EDT (link)

Tea Party mentality isn’t going away until the job is done? The name may change over time, but the sentiment and intent is here to stay. Once motivated, the awakened giant that is the American electorate today will continue to move forward to roll back all the insults to the system that the Founders instituted.

Mr. Lilla might want to look to his European colleagues to see if they have any job openings for an “historian of ideas.” Sounds like it’s more up their alley, than ours.

You could be right about ousting the

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 4:50PM EDT (link)

media and academic elite. The media are already crumbling due to market forces. However, academic elites have been fomenting utopianism for how long now, centuries? Unless market forces can be brought to bear on this somehow, it’s going to be extraordinarily tough. Frankly, I don’t see much hope there. I see the academic brotherhood as a scourge of Biblical proportions that will only be moderated when people start paying for their own education, or through private donations, and big government has no sway. The government grant is responsible for the rising costs of education and is available to institutions regardless of the worthlessness of the degrees earned. This will become more and more commonplace in the Obama economy as bachelors degrees are earned in order to compete for fewer and fewer private sector jobs. There are going to be positions for social justice graduates, but sooner or later those, too, will succomb due to running out of other peoples’ money, too. Then and only then will market forces have a chance to clean out the stables.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Agreed, redneck hippie. When there is no longer

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 5:55PM EDT (link)

the same benefits to getting a college education, then there is no longer any big benefit to supporting those same colleges and universities. If the economy goes the way that many of us are convinced that it will, then those state funded liberals and radicals will be a luxury that an increasingly strained electorate can no longer afford to indulge.

And that is when we will be rid of them. They are lice upon the body politic.

Illinois is already strained

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:09PM EDT (link)

and continually having to borrow money in order to provide state grants to college students. They had run out of money last semester, but then Quinn came along and borrowed more money to fund it. The state grant for summer school was expected to be exhausted by April 15th.

My daughter teaches high school in a very tiny Western Illinois (Quincy) district. The state owes just her tiny school district $400,000.00, and they had to lay off a whole bunch of teachers.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

I think just about all school districts are strained for money now, redneck.

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:19PM EDT (link)

Nashville, TN is in the same boat and the school board’s decision was to start laying off janitors and bus drivers for the district. How about getting rid of the redundant layers of bureaucracy in just about every school administration before getting rid of the ones who get the kids to school and then help to keep it clean enough to have kids there in the first place.

I know that the school district in the county next to me has forked over big bucks for the administrators to have “workshops” in places like DisneyWorld while the average teacher there didn’t get any kind of a raise for at least three years. They have also given the administrative staff at the central office expanded benefits every single year, as well as continuing to hire ever more personnel at the central office. That’s where a lot of the money is going in every school district — the bureaucracies that run the schools.

As class sizes continue to grow

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:30PM EDT (link)

here is hoping all those willing and able to do so will provide home or private schooling for their precious ones.

The jackasses in the Illinois legislature just shot down a school voucher program targeted at the 22,000 children in the worst-performing Chicago Public Schools. They could have provided a scholarship in lieu of spending thousands per pupil to schools that are failing miserably. These legislators voted for the teachers’ union and the bureaucrats. The children are paying the price for the corruption, as they are going to do nationwide for the failures of the leftist power structure.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

My state rep voted against that...

liandro (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 1:38PM EDT (link)

Jerry Mitchell, even though he’s (R) and well-entrenched. He is big on public education and probably tied in with the teachers, so I’m sorry to say I got over my initial surprise quickly once I thought about it. I’m going to schedule an appointment with him to ask about it. =/

 
 
 
 
 

Oh, it certainly won't be easy to cleanse the academy. But for the first time

spainishirish (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 1:44PM EDT (link)

I can see that possibility. Enrollments are falling, and cash-strapped states are starting to pull the plug on some public colleges and universities. So market forces are at work already. Despite the forces arrayed against them, we need to encourage more conservatives and, yes, libertarians to be academics.

The media battle is all but won now although the largest outlets remain strictly leftist. Nonetheless, they aren’t long for it. CBS may have an audience three times as large as FOX, but it is nowhere near as financially viable. I would like to give Andrew Breitbart props here for his insight as to how the battle for the control of information is the new culture war.

The battle for control of the academy will be bloodier and longer, but it is a war worth having.

 
 
 
 

Lefties Struggling To See the Obvious...

libertyatstake Sunday, May 9th at 4:59PM EDT (link)

…like Lefties always. do. It’s Hard to see the obvious when you think you have all the answers.

http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
[For a light hearted take on our present peril]

 

Of course we'll go home, Mr. Lilla.

saltlick Sunday, May 9th at 6:08PM EDT (link)

That’s where we keep our ammunition.

Yes, the four boxes!

stephaniet Monday, May 10th at 9:38AM EDT (link)

Soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box.

I’ve been using the soap box since… well, I would say September 2008, when I seem to remember that the campaign ads were at their (annoying and repetitive) peak. Finally got to make use of the ballot box this month in the Indiana primary. I hope it doesn’t come to needing the ammo box, but if it should… let the Lefties and their behemoth government take the first shot, for I doubt any good patriots would garner any sympathy/support if they started a fight. Don’t fire unless fired upon, yes? “Don’t fire ’til you see the whites of their eyes” and all that. Granted, with today’s modern sniper rifles, we could probably see the whites of their eyes from a half-mile off.

“*They* say the best weapon is one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I *prefer* the weapon you only have to fire *once*. That’s how Dad did it; that’s how America does it… and it’s worked out pretty well so far.”

 
 

If Ron Paul controlled the Tea Parties, then Yes

kuksool (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 6:20PM EDT (link)

If the Tea Parties rallied around Ron Paul as their Leader, then the movement would be a mob.

They have to a degree

Scope (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:28PM EDT (link)

Ron Paul’s C4L has tried to take over the Republican party. One of their strategic places to infiltrate has been with some Tea Parties. I suspect that Lilla is talking about this fringe group, and is attributing it to all the Tea Party folk.

Yes, of course.

liandro (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 1:53PM EDT (link)

Joining together with people who agree nearly exactly with our small-government mindset is “infiltrating”.

If I do work at the local Crisis Pregnancy Center for my church I’m “infiltrating” the pro-life cause. And as a business owner, I “infiltrated” the pro-business community by joining my local Chamber of Commerce.

Maybe we could just work together for a common cause without attacking each other?

5, Vassar's diary on the "handshake"

aesthete (Diary) Tuesday, May 11th at 2:48AM EDT (link)

that needs to bridge Blue and Red GOPers applies just as well to libertarians and others who want government reduced.

“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke

 

liandro- I wouldn't say

Scope (Diary) Tuesday, May 11th at 11:04AM EDT (link)

that they “nearly exactly” agree with the Reagan conservatives, except in the broadest sense. Their promises to eliminate the FED, the IRS and other financial insititutions over night, or in one term or many terms if they are elected, is unrealistic. It makes for good sound bites though.

After the fiscal issues, they are a world apart on the social and national security legs of Reagan conservative stool. They have redefined conservatism into their own meaning of the political persuation.

From one of their own websites, one of the things stated was-

“Like it or not, this is America and it is a two party system. One of the parties is closer to our beliefs and one is easier to “take over.” It so happens that both are the GOP. Let’s bring the GOP back to it’s roots.”

http://r3volt.com/node/136

I really love the “Like it or not, this is America” opening. And, as to “bring the GOP back to it’s roots”, they are only referring to those roots they agree with.

If that isn’t the definition of “infiltrating” than the I don’t know what is. . “Joining” groups, such as those you mention means that you support their goals and work. It doesn’t mean that you are there to change them into your perceived notion of how it should be. If you and others like you join them with the goal of changing them into your expectations, then yes that also would be “infiltrating.”

ps- The C4L is not a unifer

Scope (Diary) Tuesday, May 11th at 11:12AM EDT (link)

they are a divider. There is a much bigger majority of citizens that believe in “strong national security and foreign policy positions.” The C4L is not a widely recognized and supported organization. They don’t compromise at all. It is all or nothing for them, and for that reason they will thankfully remain a fringe group.

 
 
 
 
 

It's all cruap, Streiff

kowalski (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:13PM EDT (link)

The generation that gave the country the fundamental distrust of government depends on the government for their jobs.

That’s all there is to it. In order to justify the expansion of government they have to try to repudiate all of the distrust of government they themselves sowed and created.

I used to know a law professor who didn’t know me well at all and asked me once: “What are you, a libertarian?”

My answer, incredibly at the time was: “No! I’m a leftist! What are you talking about?”

Her judgment was all based on appearances, but in fact I was much more of a radical leftist than she was. I not only wanted State control, I thought it was the best thing that could happen to everyone in the country. That’s why I signed up for the job! Then I found out who the people who really provide the intellectual firmament are: a lot of them are just drunk totalitarians. They’re colossal screwups who want everyone to behave according to their rules.

Anybody who is authentically Liberterian should be offended by them, which was the intent of the epithet I received, even though it didn’t apply to me at the time. The real “metastasis” is State power, in every aspect of our lives.

 

This is like a "minor meme" now...

kowalski (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:19PM EDT (link)

By the way, one of the “minor memes” that’s going around in Intellectual Circles is:

“How do we undo the perception we created among so many people that you shouldn’t trust the government?”

The fundamental reality they’re facing is that the Obama Administration is encountering some resistance (“pushback” is what it’s called in Official Circles) from people who basically don’t trust the government — but in their view for the *wrong reasons* now.

It’s a kind of “blowback” problem in their view: they created distrust of the government, but now that they have a Statist in power, what they really need is for everyone to start trusting it.

In their minds, the people in this country who vote and decide are just little tiny things that get pushed around by their big ideas. So they’re scrambling massively to reverse the “distrust of government” they themselves created.

Right now, if everything was working

kowalski (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:21PM EDT (link)

If everything was working according to Plan, what would have happened is that Americans would have breathed a big sigh of relief that Obama was elected and said, collectively: “I Love Big Brother.”

Then, kowalski, they have a really massive problem.

janis (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:27PM EDT (link)

Because distrust of government and dislike for ever larger intrusions by same into every little corner of our lives has grown exponentially since O’s election.

Way to go, Dems! Well done. You can’t imagine just how much we appreciate every little thing you’ve done to drive more and more people toward our way of thinking.

Yes, they maligned, disparaged and desecretated Bush

Scope (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:37PM EDT (link)

while he was the pres. They created the distrust in government, out of pure hate for Bush and anything Republican. Once the O was elevated to the throne, and O got the lay of the land, he has adopted some of Bush’s policies, while claiming that he is cleaning up the mess left by Bush.

 
 
 

100 comments

streiff (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:30PM EDT (link)

when you showed up, Alex, I knew immediately we’d hit 100 comments on this thread. Maybe a record for a Sunday.

“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”

it was the key word "libertarian" that did it streiff

Doc Holliday (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:39PM EDT (link)

and of course the excellent diary :)

Molon Labe!

to explain

Doc Holliday (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 10:48AM EDT (link)

I am saying that is where the energy is, we want our freedom back!

Molon Labe!

 
 

I'm always happy to, er, help. (nt)

kowalski (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:59PM EDT (link)

RH 14. Kowalski 5. Your turn LOL nt

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 8:14PM EDT (link)

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 
 
 
 

Postmodern politics is about coercion

kowalski (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 7:50PM EDT (link)

It’s the antithesis of what Streiff writes in the first paragraph:

He approaches an American farmer or rancher or backwoodsman and says, “My good man, where is your master.” The American solemnly stares and replies, “I reckon that sumbitch ain’t been born.”

This is precisely the kind of person that professional politicians who have rooms full of consultants and pollsters and professional publicists cannot stand: they’re the real Americans. They’re really the people who cannot be coerced by the “noise” and the arm-twisting into voting for one candidate or another.

In my estimation they comprise about 1/3rd of the population right now, and that number is dropping.

It’s also mostly about Statist coercion. The more dependent on the State people become, the more readily coerced they will be, and that political insight isn’t lost on the Democrats: they’d much rather have 40 or 50% of the people in the United States dependent for their jobs and livelihood and futures on the decisions made at the Federal level, it makes things so much simpler.

Sunstein knows that he can’t force you at the point of his boot to become a Statist, and as a result he’s written a book about how to gradually “nudge” you in the direction of being one — until you are, to more or less his satisfaction.

It’s a gradual process and one that the real Statists intend to continue honing and perfecting for as long as it takes. They’re not going to do it at knifepoint or gunpoint, they’re simply going to make it impossible for you to think otherwise and be taken seriously.

You know kowalski they might have continued on....

JadedByPolitics (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 8:13PM EDT (link)

however they OVER REACTED to their win thinking as Newsweek said “we are all Socialists now”….they believe their own press and so they carried on as if they had a mandate for statism but the people were not ready to be FORCED and they FORCED it and so they lost the buildup and now they are going to have to go back to attempting to do it after the BLOWUP in November. If the Republicans take the 80+ seats I believe they will then it will be a generation before all has been forgotten. That is not to say that they will not go underground and quietly go about it however if Republicans are Conservatives and go about breaking up the Federal Governmental Agencies that create these statist policies they may be broken forever.

That is why my support for a Republican is predicated on Government busting :)

Amen! We have to look for "busters" to run and

davesinsanantonio (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 3:53PM EDT (link)

then get them elected. There are parts of the bureaucracy that have overstepped the bounds, and need to be removed so that they cannot grow back to do it all over again.

 
 
 

No recco button...?

qixlqatl (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:08PM EDT (link)

Great diary, great comments. Well worth the read. But I can’t give it a recco, ‘cuz there’s no button.

“Yet, Freedom! yet thy banner, torn, but flying,
Streams like the thunderstorm against the wind.”

George Gordon Noel Byron

This is a front page article. no reco button. nt

redneck_hippie (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 9:20PM EDT (link)

Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

Oh. Guess I missed it on the FP (I checked)

qixlqatl (Diary) Sunday, May 9th at 11:16PM EDT (link)

Must be a recurrence of the occasional situational blindness that affects me from time to time. :/

“Yet, Freedom! yet thy banner, torn, but flying,
Streams like the thunderstorm against the wind.”

George Gordon Noel Byron

 
 
 

Lilla's article was well done

hickorystick (Diary) Monday, May 10th at 12:13AM EDT (link)

he made some good observations. I took away two main points. Politics, whether left or right, is becoming libertarian and self-serving. And people are moving to communities, counties, and states, where their views can be reflected back to them.. They are seperating into corners to hear what they want to hear. I read an article about Northern California, and how it is being made into a haven for the wealthy. They take over town councils, and write rules to exclude others from doing business. The property taxes sky-rocket, longtime natives are being driven out of their homes and businesses.
Lilla peppered his article with shots at every voice on the right, and tea-parties, but it seemed pro-forma, and he didn’t try very hard to make it sting. More like a courtesy to lefty readers.
Good review Streiff, thanks

 

The left wishes it was just *some libertarians*...

anotherindyfilmguy (Diary) Tuesday, May 11th at 12:57AM EDT (link)

The thing that seems to perhaps annoy the MSM lefties the most is that the Tea Party cuts across all ethnic boundaries and crosses party lines to include some very pissed of democrats… The left is scared, for a very good reason and the reason is that the Tea Party is the beginning of backlash against decades of the left and their stifling abuse of PC to try and take over everything.

Another thing that the left is groping with is trying to pin a definitive identity to that movement so they can properly demonize it and they’re suffering an epic fail in that vein as well…

Pass the popcorn and beer come November… hopefully it will be our own velvet revolution in the making…

Razz Etc!
“Best Poker book written ever!!!” – Author’s unbiased opinion…