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More On Perry And Gardasil

By: streiff (Diary)  |  August 17th, 2011 at 02:55 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Yesterday I made a post that has created some waves in which I offered a defense of Texas Governor Rick Perry’s decision to require girls in Texas to be vaccinated against the strains of HPV that cause cervical cancer.

A couple of things have happened today which have convinced me to revisit that post. One is a report in Politico on Perry’s involvement in the decision to require the vaccinations and the second is Erick’s reposting of his story on the subject from 2007.

Let me talk about Erick’s essay first as a wide array of morons have been pointing it out to me on Twitter as a repudiation of my argument. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I have a long association with this subject. I collaborated on and edited the essay by Dr. Joe DeSoto, a friend and fellow train commuter, which is linked to in that story.

This is not to bloviate about my importance but to point out there isn’t a single point made in Erick’s post that isn’t applicable to my post. In fact, there is no defense made of the vaccine or its required usage in that post.

I thought at the time, and continue to think, that there were a lot of problems with Gardasil, as a drug, and the general strategy laid out for its use. I wouldn’t support my child getting that vaccine, and in Texas under Governor Perry’s order I wouldn’t have to — which was sort of one major point I was making in my post.

There is room for people to disagree on whether or not the decision was right. The fact is that Governor Perry was not acting as a loose cannon. The drug was approved for use by the FDA. The CDC was, and is, recommending that every girl age 9 through 26 receive the vaccine. The decision to make the vaccine mandatory was based on a desire to make the vaccine accessible via health insurance plans. What is beyond The Pale are the bad faith and dishonest arguments being made in regards to this decision. Unfortunately, people I have previously had some respect for have checked their integrity and intellect at the door on this subject.

The second part of the story are the Perry administration’s emails on the Gardasil decision. They are available at Politico if you want to read the 700 pages worth.There isn’t a hint of impropriety.

To me this has been the most troubling part of the story. The Gardasil decision in by no means a cut and dried decision and the fact that Perry, himself, has admitted error indicates that is the case. The insistence by a handful of people in pushing the story that the decsion was the result of a payoff is simply disgusting and reflects much more on the character, honor, and integrity of those making the allegation than it does on Perry or any of his staff. As fair warning, I intend to treat those making those allegations in a way indistinguishable from the way birthers and truthers are treated.

The other disturbing trend I’ve noticed is the number of anti-vaccine crazies that are appearing. In just the way any post on immigration party will bring out all manner of racists and xenophobes under the “secure borders” banner, this subject is attracting anti-vaccine crazies who generally masquerade under the “parental rights” banner. As a father of three young children, I’m all in favor of parental rights. I just don’t think those rights extend to killing or crippling my kids or, worse than that, killing or crippling my neighbor’s kids because I’m an imbecile. But that is a story for a different day.

Equally silly is the claim that an anti-HPV vaccine will lead to sexual promiscuity or the idea that pre-marital sex is okay. HPV is a very minor STD. If you think your kid is only deterred from having indiscriminate monkey sex by the fear of getting HPV then you have much greater problems that worrying about the use of Gardasil.

So let me reiterate the main points in bullet form for the reading impaired:

1. I agreed with Erick’s post on Gardasil in 2007 and I agree with it today.
2. That agreement aside, the issue is not black and white.
3. Perry was not an outlier in making an anti-HPV vaccine mandatory.
4. The federal government recommended mass vaccination of women before Perry acted.
5. There is no evidence that Perry’s decision was influenced by anything other than his personal belief that vaccination was the way to go.

COMMENTS

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  • kowalski

    One interesting point of comparison for you in particular might be to compare how our soldiers are inoculated. They get a lot of vaccinations before they ship out/fly out/move out — and it saves a lot of lives. The people who have strange beliefs about vaccinations really have no place in the discussion. American soldiers are probably the best-vaccinated people on the planet.

    I just think that unless something is really absolutely shown to be necessary it should be optional – for civilians.

    HPV is no prize to have and it should be something parents have a hand in deciding.

    • kowalski

      If there was a successful and proven vaccine for HIV/AIDS, I have every expectation that American soliders would be some of the first people to receive it. Does that mean every person in America should receive it? I don’t believe so.

  • jseville

    From insinuating anti-vaccine parents — embiciles and crazies– are endangering his kids…this writer reeks of arrogance that I would find at HuffPo and on the left. Or a coward who hasn’t spent weeks/months/years tracking vaccine issues. And the blind faith in the CDC that is exactly how big government types thing–the government said it so it must be good.

    CDC/FCA also endorsed transfats (margarine), flouride, cigs, etc. Only to do HUGE reversals later. CDC (Sebelius sp?) said 1 in 6 americans had gotten swine flue (h1n1). Yet the states testing flu cases that year found a few percent were actually h1n1. Then CDC asked states to STOP testing. The writer is probably oblivious to this type of information and certainly spends no regular time researching the news and information on these issues.

    What is so low–beyond insulting parents who know a hell of a lot more about vaccines that you do–is that the writer is desperate enough to smear and dodge versus man up and face the issue:

    Should bureaucrats and governors mandate to parents how to rear, educate, discipline or medicate their kids. HELL NO as they might say in TX. So stick to the issue instead of Alinsky dodging that the tea party despises and certainly can’t respect.

    It’s funny you see the $15 billion vaccine industry providing vaccines for diseases that were about wiped off the map before vaccines came out.

    Giving a Hep B shot to a 12 hour old infant is brilliant $$$. Especially when you consider that the high risk groups for Hep B are drug users and prostitutes.

    Perhaps people should look into the issue more in depth–especially before dismissing the intellects who do not follow but think for themselves.

    • gekster

      I find streiff alot more informed than you imply.
      Maybe while reading the article, you wern’t holding your mouth right.
      Try reading it with an Elvis sneer, to the right side, not the left.
      You might see it diferently.

      • http://heirsinhope.blogspot.com/ drusilla

        1) Fear of a repeat performance. We’ve spent the past 2.5 – 3 years working & praying to get the WH resident & his cronies out. The last thing anyone wants is a repeat & we know GOP or Dem makes no difference. For the 1st time in a long time, we must vet individual candidates. Any inkling that 1 candidate might be like that man who won’t leave the WH is reason to fear. And that fear is understandable. We’ve had so much thrown @ us these past few years we are all terribly gun shy. Let’s realize that, take a breath & try to understand what critics are saying rather than place too much focus on what they say. For example, I don’t see any difference in Michele Malkin’s style. She’s not nice. But there’s no reason she ought to be.

        2) Unless I am mistaken, on at least one occasion, Gov. Perry says he listened to the legislature & agreed w/ them. Yet when the legislature overturned the EO, Gov. Perry actually disagreed w/ the legislature (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/07/legislature/4787541.html). Is his memory impaired (as one who is ill & takes lots of meds, I get that but then I wouldn’t run for any office, let alone POTUS)? Does he forget we’re in the era when everything is preserved? Is this just one of those flaws we must live w/ or ought we take a closer look @ the man? I don’t have answers & I like Perry (it took guts to call the nation to prayer & fasting & he might suffer because of it) but I have questions & I want answers.

        3) TX intentionally keeps governors week. I’ve only learned this recently because I’ve only lived here about a year. The gov doesn’t appoint the lt. gov or other positions & is only given the opportunity to apply a line item veto before he signs the budget. But, it has been claimed, that Perry has made himself the strongest governors in TX history through EOs. A google search has produced the following from the governor’s site: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=+site:governor.state.tx.us+rick+perry+executive+orders&sa=X&ei=VhxMTq70H4vFsQLfx-28CA&ved=0CDUQrAM&biw=1272&bih=659. I haven’t the energy to go through them today & I don’t know if such charges are true but I think they ought to be investigated. If they are true, we need to know now. If they are false, we need facts to respond to others who make such claims.

        • streiff

          As far as Perry goes, I am not all that comfortable with Texas adopting a version of the DREAM Act.

          Having said that, I think the criticism of Perry on this issue is simply bonkers and it is being promoted by a perfect storm of charlatans and ignoramuses.

          • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

            .. especially for your coming back and going out on a limb with the “previous respect” issue.

            Michelle’d been on twitter saying “he did NOT “respect” the legislature. he called the vote “shameful.”

            http://twitter.com/#!/michellemalkin/status/103832503311269888

            ..another point in her incredible Perry=Obama=Alinsky “How Obama-like was this scandal? Let us count the ways” narrative:

            “Human shield demagoguery[!]. In response to the legislature?s rebuke, the infuriated governor attacked those who supported repeal as ?shameful? spreaders of ?misinformation? who were putting ?women?s lives? at risk. Borrowing a tried-and-true Alinskyite page from the progressive left, Perry surrounded himself with female cervical cancer victims and deflected criticism of his imperial tactics with emotional anecdotes.”

            http://michellemalkin.com/2011/08/16/rick-perrys-bad-obama-style-medicine/

            Perry’s only mention of “shameful” was in reference to the rider language in the budget “that prevents the state from funding vaccines for low-income women if it is [later] mandated by the commission.”

            “Shameful” had nothing to do with the Lege’s “vote” to reverse Perry’s EO, but rather, their efforts to make the vaccine affordable to parents who wanted the vaccine.

            One of your commenters said:

            “..I had a 13 year old daughter & I wanted the vaccine. I am just a middle class single parent with a job & insurance. When the shots first became public our insurance companies would not pay for them, each shot cost 160.00 (or more) each & it took 3, making it impossible.

            Gov Perry by mandating it forced the insurance companies to put it on their approved shot list-hence like every other shot it cost 10.00.”

            http://www.redstate.com/aglanon/2011/08/17/vetting-rick-perry/#comment-1756

            Obviously, this didn’t make Michelle’s piece.

            She’s more concerned about sounding pithy than giving sound analysis, IMO.

            Too bad she picked Perry to do this with. What’s she going to say if Perry wins the nom?

          • streiff

            which is what is so pathetic about her post.

          • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

            say .. isn’t that what she accused Perry of?

          • robbyshankar

            While I thought her article was informative, it certainly seemed biased. I was almost expecting a “that’s why I’m endorsing so and so for president instead of Rick Perry”

          • Christine (Trelaina)

            then….eh, no big deal.

            I have never really forgiven her for an action several years ago, where in an obvious attempt to be the “first blog”, she threw a supposedly good friend of hers under the bus and then stepped on the accelerator herself. Since then I find it difficult to give any weight to her judgement of someone.

          • http://rightcal.blogspot.com/ Calvin Freiburger

            .

        • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

          The Chron is a Texas liberal rag and is hardly a source of impartial criticism, expecially with Perry.

          They were in Bill White’s pocket throughout the election, doncha know?

          He “disagreed” but didn’t veto — but Michelle’s piece is skewed beyond belief.

          I’ve been on hiatus for *months* and when I came back to read her piece on Perry, I swear I could have substituted Perry for any Dem. Pelosi, even! Her smearing knew no bounds, and in my opinion, she’s discredited herself, even as a writer — because writers adapt and temper themselves and don’t lamblast directly from their own biases. She’ll never be credible to me, again.

          Lastly — your contradict yourself in your third point. You got the “TX … keeps governors weak [sic]” from the Chron, as well, where they say:

          “University of North Carolina political science professor Thad Beyle ranks Texas as having among the 11 weakest governorships”

          Read more: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/07/legislature/4579437.html#ixzz1VJyRXrCy

          .. in 2007 when this issue went to press. Yet you say, “Perry has made himself the strongest governors in TX history through EOs” (source?), when even the Chron acknowledges “Perry’s power rating improves when his party’s current dominance is factored in.”

          Check the success of the state he comes from, not the Chron’s opinion. They will always be in the gutter where they belong.

          • lineholder

            It appears that the person making the above comment drew information from a media source that was drawing data from the UNC School of Government. UNC is a good school in many ways, but the SOG is as liberal as it gets!!

          • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

            see below.

            hope you’re doing well! :)

          • lineholder

            Thanks.

            As to health-related stuff…I’m in a “holding pattern” for a while. (Long story). But thanks for asking.

            I’m going to throw an idea out here. Let me know what you think.

            Right now, everyone is focused on vetting of candidates. It seems to me that we’re getting away from focusing on issues. And to tell you the truth, I’m not even sure at this point how much conservatives are in agreement on the issues.
            If we did something like a Pareto analysis (identifying significant few vs. trivial many), which issues come out on top? I think the economy in general would be the top issue, but beyond that…which issues do we consider as being higher priority (needing to be addressed first) and which issues are lower priority?

            The reason I’m asking is that there could be some England-style trouble coming our way.
            http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/obama-slipping-black-america-waking-nightmare
            If we keep this in mind, and get out a message that focuses on the issues, maybe, just maybe, we can deter this?

          • lineholder

            What’s your take on this? Time to post a “head’s up” diary?

            http://october2011.org/statement

          • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

            As you can see, when Obama got elected, there wasn’t a single “trivial” thing he and his cohorts didn’t touch. This is where you saw a flurry of activity from the conservative blogosphere — there was just too much to cover. Everyday, something new, something maybe more important or less important, something to distract — but something worth noting because it affected the deterioration of our society.

            You’re just looking at the results of his domestic policy. It will result in a restriction of our freedoms, but I’m not worried, because I’m not a part of the crazies that are broiling up.

            Lineholder, I want you to go to your local supermarket, in your neighborhood, and see the people there. And I want you to try to see beyond the idea that they’re “just not getting it” or “why aren’t they activists?” or that they’re “sheep being led to the slaughter.”

            They’re just like you and I, hardworking Americans who want to keep their jobs, want to secure their lives now and in the future, as well as those of their children.

            They’re not going to rebel or cause a revolution.

            Let these nuts on the campuses do what they want to do. The government’s already privvy to this stuff and they’ll be on top of it.

            In fact, distance yourself from this. Stop visiting their sites and stop looking for stuff, and focus at the issues at hand, close to your life. I told you once before — busy yourself with speaking to your family and your neighbors and your friends. These people on the campuses and in their strange groups having nothing to do with us.

            Continuing to go back and mentioning them will throw what’s left of the “tea party” spirit — and therefore, our tea party candidates (and whomever the media chooses to label as tea party) — into the heap which will lead to big problems.

            But answering your question on the biggest issues: I want to keep my job, I’m concerned about stagnant wages and competing with people overseas for my position and my wages staying depressed and not “inflating” with the rest of inflation. I’m concerned about my children who are going off to college and their experiencing the same thing. I’m concerned about their leaving the country to find a better life, rather than stay near home where we can be a family and help secure the strength of society. I’m concerned about the prospects of those I’m still raising.

            Notice I didn’t say anything about progressive ills — like indoctrination in public schools, etc. I’m a saavy mom. I take care of that business.

            Let me sustain myself, Mr. Government, so I can raise my kids the best way I see fit.

          • lineholder

            I can understand the viewpoint you’re presenting.

            Here’s mine…God presents us with opportunities in mysterious ways sometimes.

          • http://heirsinhope.blogspot.com/ drusilla

            has made himself strong using EOs from conservative friends who have lived here all their lives & who only began talking about Perry when he decided to run for office. (They assumed he wouldn’t run because he wouldn’t stand the vetting.) I confirmed their info from other sources including the Chron.

            Thank you for pointing out the Chron as a bad source – I had it at hand & was too tired to do more than skim the article. Will find better sources in the future & if I don’t won’t mention the claim.

            But the success of the state @ isn’t reason enough to say all’s well. We’re concerned w/ the man. If he issued an excess of EOs (& I’m not at all prepared to say he has), that # might be small in a state that limits a gov’s power but still excessive in that state (give me a week to research it & I’ll let you know what I find). But that action might well be indicative of a tendency to circumvent the limitations of the law. As I said in #1, we’re all gun shy & it’s reasonable that we make doubly sure he’s properly vetted particularly in areas that the man who won’t get out of the WH has similarly used.

          • http://www.veronicaestrada.com Veronica

            then you’ve got to do a comparative with all other states, including those w/ repub governorships.

            The problem with researching Perry (lineholder, this goes to you, too), is that during the 2010 election, you had all 3 newspaper-gunships — The Dallas Morning News, The Houston CHronicle, The Austin American Statesman — putting out massively biased information against him.

            Maybe this is what Michelle read in her “research” and got her blood boiling.

            … oh, hell .. I just scanned her piece. She’s got the Chron, TexasTribune (another lefty blog), as well as the local media (leftist as well) for sources.

            Wow, talk about non-impartial!

            I am really, really surprised about this.

            Anyone — and I mean ANYONE — any citizen who’s going to google Perry is going to “earn more” about him will find a tonne of anti-Perry junk put out by these papers and the numerous lefty blogs obama left in his 2008 wake.

            I even remember mentioning it here at RedState that there weren’t enough conservative bloggers to counter the trash coming out of these outlets.

            Michelle succumbed .. and this is just something for Perry to overcome.

            A mountain of anti-Perry filth out there..

    • streiff

      I’m not going to address this crap because I work with this issue every day.

      I feel sorry for the people who gladly put their children at risk by fighting vaccines and I loathe them for putting other’s kids at risk.

      • jseville

        You afraid to focus on this issue:

        **Should bureaucrats and governors mandate to parents how to rear, educate, discipline or medicate their kids??? HELL NO as they might say in TX.

        Answer the question or go silent? Any RedState writer who supposedly advocates liberty and small government should be able to answer this question instead of sinking to more insults.

        Insulting instead of staying on the real issue is the “NONSENSE” you referred to I trust.

        Is RS going to be an official Perry advocate going forward so I know or is it a 3rd party blog commenting on all the candidates without favorites. I just want to know if there is an official backing going on or not. I assume not and that individual writers will have personal favorites. But his announcement at the RS meeting last week was classic but makes me wonder if Perry pushing is all I can expect going forward. Let me know.

        And back to that real issue that Streiff is dodging while insulting others:

        Should bureaucrats and governors mandate to parents how to rear, educate, discipline or medicate their kids??????

        • snowshooze

          Mandated a vaccination, would fall to insurance, had a huge back door for opt outs..so the mandate was easy to escape for any of those so inclined.
          All you needed to claim was objection, and there was no requirement that you needed to defend your objection.

          • acat

            There is overkill, and there is “I surrender”. Pick one.

            Mew

        • streiff

          but that issue isn’t in question. The issue is the Gardasil decision and the executive order had an opt out provision so even the most benighted flat-earth anti-vaccine whacko could not participate. Anyone who had children receive the vax involuntarily was a moron and probably shouldn’t have had kids to begin with.

          If you want to write about your particular bloggy-horse, you have access to the diaries. Knock yourself out. I realize that would be work and all but life is tough then you die.

          In the future don’t call be out by name. I don’t like it particularly when you 1) haven’t bothered reading what I’ve written and 2) have your knickers in a tight little knot because i’m not writing about what you want to fight about.

          • GordonTaylor

            n/t

  • irishgirl

    Again, I am really surprised at how much play this whole thing is getting. I was way taken aback when I looked at MM’s site this morning and then found her article again on Townhall. And for the record, I too, absolutely despise people who would rather put their children in jeopardy by not getting them vaccinated (and I don’t mean Gardisil). I can’t understand how those people think certain diseases got eradicated in the first place.

  • ideasmatter

    I think it has always been the position of pro-freedom, pro-liberty types such as Jefferson, Adams, Perry, and Washington, that immunizations be mandatorily injected into sections of the populace willy-nilly because they felt the individual sacrifice to the collective was what liberty was all about. Now let us embrace our founding brother Rick Perry as he leads us into the bright and shinging future that is HPV free.

    • Scope

      Take your Paulian crap and put it………The father Paul has spoken, vaccinations against deadly diseases are against our personal freedoms, even though a good number of vaccines have eradicated deadly diseases such as Smallpox. So what you are saying is that you will decide if you will risk getting a deadly disease, and the rest of the population be danged. That’s Paul’s idea of total freedom that isn’t total freedom for those of us that reject his ideas. Where is the freedom argument for those that don’t accept his ideas? Freedom goes both ways. You see how Paul is seen as being as much of a tyrant in trying to impose his will on the population as Obama has forced his ideas on all of us?

  • ideasmatter

    The whole point is not if the vaccine was a life-saver, or not.
    The point is, does the government have the right to deliver forced vaccinations, as a rancher, or farmer has over his livestock?
    To say…”but the vaccine was good, it protected from 4 of 12 vaginal cancers”…misses the point. Are we livestock? Is Perry acting with consistency to the Declaration of Independence? Not quite.

    • snowshooze

      Now… where is that cat?

      • acat

        The whole point upon which ideasmatter bases the argument is mistaken.

        The vaccine will save lives. Perhaps a small percentage from cervical cancer, but that’s not the only killer. It can also cause complications in pregnancy, and a host of other health issues.

        The vaccination was not forced. It was opt-out, specifically to reduce the cost because opt-in vaccines are not required to be covered by health insurance. A simple waiver, that could be found online and that doctors offices likely already have on file to cover the religious or idiots who want to opt their kids out of other vaccinations.

        Equating us with livestock is deliberately offensive .. it’s not hyperbole, it’s a calculated insult, with the intent of using the anger at the insult to mask what we’re agreeing with. There’s an opt-out. There’s a non-insignificant health benefit. I decline to agree with the assertion that I’m a cow.

        Mew

        (although if you’ve got any leftover steaks I’ve got the grill heating up)

        • snowshooze

          That horse looks pretty much like glue… but I figured you had best come check. Yep, that might be an ear that isn’t quite done…
          Yeah, an opt-out you could drive a truck through. Without even slowing down.
          And I think most people are fairly well aware of risk/benefeit concerns.
          Forced vaccinations… ho-hum… line ‘em up.
          Are you suuure it isn’t glue yet??

          • acat

            (and even then, with the J-school rejects writing history books these days …)

            Mew

          • acat

            this is communicable.

            As people hear and become offended that Perry signed off on this, they will come screaming in “but he’s not a real conservative, do you know what he did!?!?!”

            This is why I’m thankful for izoneguy getting permission to post that diary of his.

            And why the horse will likely outlive us.

            Mew

          • snowshooze

            Completely devastating the entire internet.
            Ok… I surrender.

          • michaelo

            Making Gardasil mandatory to force insurance ccompanies to cover it…kind of Obamacarish isn’t it?

            Here are my bullet point issues with Perry, which makes him on the margin of acceptability to the local Tea Party leader.

            1) Cronyism: his handling of the Enterprise Fund has been like a cookie jar for his favorite business buddies

            2) The mandatory vaccine debacle- fortunately stopped by BOTH parties down here. Step away now or not, he certainly was pushing it then.

            3) TransTexas corridor and all sorts of eminent domain issues tied to it.

            4) He?s never seen a toll road he doesn?t like and has no qualms about foreign companies owning them.

            5) Soft on the border; any attempt to deny it is a joke. He wants the National Guard on the border for the drug cartels, NOT the illegal immigrants. He and his buddies Straus and Dewhurst made sure not ONE immigration strengthening bill got out of committee. The legislation punishing Sanctuary Cities was played for Kabuki theater, but never was going to become law.

            But bottom line: he IS preferable to Romney… And a roadkilled skunk is preferable to what we currently have in the White House.

          • Tavern Keeper

            I would hope most of us would agree that the violence associated with the drug cartels would be a good – even better – reason than illegal immigration in regard to militarizing the border.

            Every governor has to balance eminent domain with economic development issues. Sometimes they decide right, sometimes they don’t – see conservative hero Haley Barbour here.

            Toll Roads & Foreign Companies – it is the objective of a market economy to grow through outside investment. You get nowhere recycling money from your own people.

            Gardisil – is this is the biggest blemish on a conservative record, I’ll turn the other cheek. Perry tried to institute a new vaccine. Romney signed in MA-Obamacare.

            And I’m not predisposed to be anti-Romney. See:

            http://www.redstate.com/thelefty/2011/08/17/why-its-not-romneys-race-to-lose-rebuttal-to-post/

          • ntrepid

            ?this is NOT. It was a mistake and, may I humbly suggest, for people in this neighborhood it should fall somewhere between a big ?nothingburger? and a ?watch item? with respect to a viable candidate depending on one?s own personal level of conservatism and intellectual contortionist abilities. The entire issue certainly does not deserve the ?ink? dumped into 145 and 60-plus comments. (More on that below.)

            I still stand by my position voiced last month (1) and don?t wish to rehash it here except to say that the ??but there was an opt out clause?? defense falls on the wrong side my conservatism threshold NO MATTER WHAT EXPLANATION YOU COME UP WITH but, then again, there is obviously no ?conservatism test? for posting or commenting here. As a ?watch item? I will continue to look for any additional activity that may point toward a disqualifying trend but I?m certainly not immature enough to throw out the ?never cast my vote for Perry? ultimatum (2).

            Speaking of maturity?I will offer up here a couple of unsolicited self policing guidelines. Recent posts and some comments on this issue?both sides of this issue?have been very well detailed and presented. They have been good platforms for substantive discussion. Unfortunately, the comment counts are misleading?I could boil many of these ?discussions? down to twelve to fifteen useful comments. Again, may I suggest in the most humble manner possible, that a) comments of 150 words or more generally add more to the discussion and b) if you are posting your tenth short comment that does nothing more than call names, belittle another member, or deliberately talks past the one you are replying to in order to mock that person to your on-line buddy then maybe you are adding nothing to this conversation. If you so secure in your position…

            Anyway, that?s my take on it.

            Ntrepid
            Proud Redstate Member since April 2006??

            (1) http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2011/08/17/more-on-perry-and-gardasil/

            (2) A 2008 Ntrepid reference ? Go search the archives yourself.

          • popdaddy

            Good Grief, if only the socialist democrats and their state run media had asked a single question about the current Domestic Terrorist-in Chief.
            There is no documented record of the first 30 something years of The Moran?s life. Yet conservatives take on the task of trying to destroy our own candidates before the socialists and their media have a chance.

            Rick Perry is a darn fine option to give America a chance to recover from the current nightmare. He has come to terms and admitted this Gardasil thing was a mistake even though he had a lot of support, including my family, for his choice to be pro active for it at the time.

            It?s now time to move to the next plateau,. You can bet the socialist media like the Austin Un-American Statesman, Dallas Morning News and Houston Chronicle have forwarded all their ?Rick Perry is mean? trash to the appropriate democrat supporters for their use.

            America is in crisis and we need someone willing to stand up for American exceptionalism and values to save the future for our children and grandchildren .

            Rick Perry can do that, if others want to step up to the mark then it will be a great primary but give them a chance. The alternative is a lose/lose for America.

          • acat

            or when those who take support for Sarah Palin to .. disturbing levels .. really get going?

            This is a nothing.

            Mew

          • Tbone

            for not finishing his third term if he gets elected.

          • streiff

            on these subjects.

            1. Perry doesn’t manage the Enterprise Fund. It has a board of directors. In any state you find the number of players with enough juice to get attention is really limited. I’ve looked at this and don’t find it particularly troubling. Business incubators and industrial policy can work at the state level. Trying to transfer this idea into a national program would be troubling and Perry needs to provide answers.

            2. The HPV vax: discussed ad nauseam.

            3. Trans Texas Corridor was a great idea that would have created lots of employment. The price tag on the eminent domain side was high. It was stopped.

            4. Toll roads are a conservative idea. It is inherently more equitable for the users of the road to pay for its upkeep than to bill people who don’t use it by way of a gas tax, etc. I’d worry about a foreign company “owning” one the day they roll it up and put it on a freighter in Galveston.

            5. His immigration stance is troubling. However, the position taken by most border state governors is not quite as hard core as many of us would like. The question is whether he thinks the policies he supported in Texas are good national policies.

          • rowdydfw

            It was my impression that the foreign country was going to sign a contract for the ‘management’ of the TTC that included collections and maintenance. They would not OWN a piece of the sovereign state of Texas.

    • streiff

      you didn’t have to take the vaccine because the order specifically allowed people to opt out for no specific reason.

      As to the other issue, you do not have the right to put me or mine in danger because you don’t like vaccines. You don’t have the right to drive a car without insurance.

      • chamberD

        Beautiful cover for the statist. The legislature — many men and women — disagreed with the entire concept, so much so that they vetoed the executive order.

        But we’re to believe that despite the 68 deaths and 18,000 complications due to the vaccine, that despite the fact that the vaccine was gender specific when the disease attacks both males and females, that Perry was a saint for mandating the vaccine as a pre-condition for young girls to enroll in public school? Sounds like heavy-handed — not INCONSEQUENTIAL — government interference to me. Sounds like Perry believes the STATE knows best.

        If the rank ignorance of vaccine dangers exhibited on this blog is any indication of the thinking involved in sizing up Perry for the Republican primaries, and if you people represent “red-staters,” then we are doomed . You’re every bit as blind to Perry’s flaws as the fawning masses were to Obama’s.

        • gekster

          And you don’t have to be here.

          • gekster

            I suggest you go find a better class of people.

          • californiagold

            While I would not support a decision by Perry, or anyone else, to force gardasil on citizens, I don’t think this issue is going to hurt Perry in the long run. Instead, reports suggest the Bush/Rove crowd is doing their best to derail a Perry nomination.

            According to reports, there are numerous reasons why the Bush/Rove crowd doesn’t want Perry to win. Apparently, Rove is working behind the scenes in support of Romney. Rove is going after the same big donors for his PAC that the Perry campaign wants.

            Another interesting report on FOX suggests that Jeb Bush is seriously looking at a 2016 run. But in order to be the nominee in 2016, Bush would need a clear field, (that means no republican incumbent like Perry). Reports also suggest that Bush is advising Paul Ryan to run in 2012. If that were to happen, many of the same donors needed by Perry would be going to Ryan. Now, I don’t know anyone in their right might who thinks Ryan has any chance of winning in 2012, but he might just shake up the race enough to deny Perry the white house.

            Many people asked why the Bush family supported a primary challenger to Governor Perry in his most recent election. Afterall, the Texas economy was in decent shape, and Perry had done a good job as governor. It would make no sense for the ex president and his son to support a primary challenger unless there were other reasons involved. Now we know why…..the Bush/Rove crowd views Perry as an obstacle to their own White House plans.

    • Scope

      I linked an article here a day or so ago where moRon Paul thought that vaccinations should be a choice between a person and his doctor. He was against vaccinations for Smallpox ferGodsakes. As a doctor, he would allow whole populations to be overtaken by infectious diseases that affect whole communities, states, and even countries. His foreign policy isn’t his only lunatic position.

      • acat

        Basic immunological theory requires, for purposes of wiping out a disease, for as many to be vaccinated as possible.

        Because vaccinations aren’t always effective, there’s a percentage – say 2% – of kids who get the shot who don’t develop the immunity.

        If everyone around them is immune, the odds of them coming into contact with a carrier is pretty darn low, and they can be treated (in ICU) no problem.

        If they’re surrounded by a bunch of refuseniks … all bets are off.

        Mew

        • streiff

          the theory is called herd immunity.

          • acat

            Given all the measles outbreaks, polio epidemics, and TB cases in 1985 …

            Mew

        • snowshooze

          The refuseniks and the uninsured were outside of the targeted audience.
          The idea seemed to pretty much make it affordable and covered by insurance. But not mandatory.
          And the opt out was so easy to get.. I actually went to the site, and found the opt-out request form, which is sent in and then the actual opt out form is returned.. just how many opt-outs do you want..

          So, if you wanted the shots under the insurance, there ya go.
          And if you don’t like it.. there ya go.
          Basic immunological theory.. fine.
          The more who are vaccinated… the better.
          Load hem down the chute thisaway…i’ll get them as they pass..up that chute into the other truck..
          But that was really not the point.

          Do you want your child covered under insurance?
          I see that as the whole intent.
          And the vaccine..probably a good idea.
          A personel decision.

  • rowdydfw

    Texas passed and Rick Perry supported and signed into law legislations in 2003 that allows parents to opt out of ANY immunizations they deem dangerous to their children with an opt out of ‘conscience’ or ‘conscientious objector’ status. My daughter did this in 2003, NOT because she is against needed immunizations, but it gives her the opportunity to consult her doctor and make the decision herself to stick the needle in her child rather than the government. She keeps their immunizations records updated every time the children get a check up, but she gets to decide. (She also takes this form with her to the hospital for newborns as it makes them consult with her during newborn screening, before immunizing.) It was a one-time (forever) deal. Picked up the form (at school) signed it, Done deal.

    In 2007 when the Gardasil issue arose, the German farmers running our school district went WHAT THE HELL? And called Perry’s office to come to a public meeting and explain themselves. My daughter, concerned as well, went to that meeting. She received wise counsel from Rick Perry’s own staff that since she opted out of ALL immunizations she deemed dangerous, she didn’t even need to fill out the Gardasil form.

    This whole issue is a kerfuffle by the RINOs and the democrats that acquired them a nice gotcha! When the legislature coudn’t solve the problem, Rick Perry did. It was the right decision. Mandating it gave those who wanted it the opportunity to get it and get it paid for by their ins carrier or SCHIP or Medicaid. It gave parents the right to make the decision and offered a one time (forever) opt out. Simple. Problem solved.

    The legislature was nixxed off because this gave them an opportunity to open up the education statues and make changes on many other issues and muck ruck around in those statutes. Perry solved the problem so they attacked and opened up those statutes which gave them opportunity to change whatever they wanted to, including other issues, and get it passed. They changed the opt out to every year, whereby you have to get forms (from the state not the school), take it to a doctor for advise and consultation, get a signature on it. A total hassle and run around and wasted money. However it does prevent the many parents who would use the opt out as an excuse to not bother with immunizations that are needed, I will give it that.

    Texas is a state that limits the power of its governor. We just don’t like vesting all the power in one office. This legislative body used that against Perry and got people all stirred up. That is one of the reasons he ‘apologized’, even though he stood his ground and said it was the right decision.

    I just wish people would stop toting around the bucket of democratic propaganda. There are 41 other states that mandated Gardasil and I’m not sure whether they have an opt out or not.

    • snowshooze

      And we got a ton of the stuff.

  • Tbone

    discussion. However, it won’t because it fits the political needs of the anti-Perry bloody shirt wavers and where it came from and whose blood is on the shirt is of no real importance to them.

    Further, as stated, the anti-vaccines, flat-earthers are, by definition, sure that the gummint is vaccinating children for the sport of killing them.

    Of course, I would support putting a Norplant is every 9 year old girl worldwide and not taking it out until she has been married for a year.

  • Hugh

    Couldn’t parents opt out for their children by completing a rather simple form?
    If so, how can one use “mandate” in the same sentence with “opt out”?

  • Scope

    we could bring back the days of the chastity belt, and the father of the bride gets to gift the groom with it on their wedding day. LOL

  • streiff

    the opt out form was easy. I don’t think mandatory with exceptions is all that unusual in policies. YMMV

  • izoneguy

    Near the bottom is this:

    Parents? Rights.The Department of State Health Services will, in order to protect the right of parents to be the final authority on their children?s health care, modify the current process in order to allow parents to submit a request for a conscientious objection affidavit form via the Internet while maintaining privacy safeguards under current law.

    RP65 ? Relating to the immunization of young women from the cancer-causing Human Papillomavirus.

  • acat

    Anyone who can’t grasp “correlation does not mean causality” can’t be the sharpest claw on the paw to begin with…

    Mew

  • kowalski

    My view on this is that people should be aware of the vaccine and if they choose to innoculate their children, having a good reason as parents to think they should, then do so. I think Perry made a defensible decision even though it’s not the one I would have preferred.

    It reminds me a little of lead abatement treatments. IIRC lead paint abatement wasn’t a mandate but it was something that parents were informed about as an option through their child’s pediatrician.

    By the way, I remember very well getting my first “Swine Flu” shot during the Carter years. So far, no ill effects that I can discover except that I like Jimmy Carter even less after all this time ;) .

  • Hugh

    The defense has no need to offer anything further into evidence.

  • kowalski

    And I remember looking at it and thinking: “Wow, nice phaser.”

  • Hugh

    When trying to distinguish between causation and correlation, remember, when the sun goes into total eclipse if you beat on a bongo drum it will come back out.

  • Hugh

    Not the coldest beer in the fridge…
    The brightest bulb on the tree…

    All my puppy dog’s paws are seem equally sharp. Don’t know about cats.

  • runner12

    who still believe that vaccines cause autism were not nuts, just desperate parents trying to find a cause for their child’s autism who have been lied to.

    The British physician, Dr. Wakefield, admitted in early 2011 that he falsified the research in his original article in the BMJ that linked autism to vaccines. His license has been revoked in Britain. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of children have not been vaccinated from deadly diseases thanks to this man’s quest for notoriety.

    Measles still kills millions of children worldwide and it is beginning a resurgence in the US.

  • acat

    …it’s the “children having sex” part.

    As Erick pointed out earlier today, this is going to be a much larger issue for primary GOP voters than independents or in the general. To the Left, it’s not so much “that dog won’t hunt” as “that’s not even a dog!”. They are, when convenient, the party of “it’s for the childrens’ own good”, eh?

    One possible interesting fix for this: Bristol Palin.

    Think about it.

    Mew

  • medicineman

    Just FYI from a medical point of view…

  • kowalski

    And I think Perry’s decision was defensible.

    Look, he wasn’t trying to tell children: “OK, now go out and boink your brains out, because you’ve been freed from the threat of HPV.”

    He was acting as the executive of a large state where the epidemiologists said: “You can prevent people who make unfortunate decisions from suffering a lot worse consequences if you do this.” And he made his judgment, which is a defensible judgment.

    I see the whole “children having sex” part as a tawdry sideshow. If I had been the governor of Texas, and the epidemiologists came to me and made their case and it was credible, I might have made the same decision. Getting a vaccination says nothing about “morality”.

    I still think it should have been optional. Doctors have a wide range of methods in which they’re ethically fine in advising their patients about optional treatments.

    This is a nonproblem that’s being blown out of proportion.

  • acat

    I think his position was defensible, although I think he should have gone through the State health system, as MMR and Hep-B and other vaccinations all did.

    The only mistake I see is that, rather than wait for the machinery of government to grind to the same conclusion, Perry acted alone, and early, and as such made himself a target.

    Mew

  • acat

    (this space for rent, inquire within)

  • acat

    It also goes from “polite acceptance” to .. much less polite rejection.

    Mew

  • runner12

    But I work with many children on the autism spectrum and their families and you would be amazed at all of the latest fads people are trying to sell them on.
    Many of which have very low to non-existent levels of scientific evidence.

  • acat

    Saddened, yes.

    Man’s inhumanity to man, regardless of race, beliefs, or orientation, seems to me to be very nearly a universal constant.

    It’s one reason I don’t believe a utopia – paradise on earth – is possible, so argue to limit the scope of government to avoid having dystopia enforced upon me.

    Mew

  • rightwingmom52

    that every time I hear the left say “1 in 10″, I count up to my first 100 friends to see if anyone hits the mark. For a while, it was every other kid was diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, then it was adult ADHD, then came the vaccines cause autism. This makes it really difficult for parents with kids who actually have a problem because many I know fight so hard against the diagnosis thinking it’s just the latest fad or band-aid.

  • acat

    Friends have actual hyperactive kids, so I know what they act like. Most who are diagnosed .. aren’t, or don’t appear to be.

    It’s important, by the way, to keep an open mind – vaccination may be linked to some long-term health problems, just as chicken pox is related to shingles – but .. well, here’s a good spot for a Reagan quote. “Trust, but verify.”

    Mew

  • Flagstaff

    I’m amazed at how many gay friends I have, with all but a very few of them doing perfect impersonations of straights and leaving me in the dark, and the others being open about it. All in all, a talented bunch.

  • acat

    Those pesky little details …

    Mew

  • Flagstaff

    Will anybody notice?