« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

FRONT PAGE CONTRIBUTOR

Herman Cain’s Unrealistic Economic Plan

9-9-9: It Is A Pizza Special Not An Economic Plan

One of the first things you learn as a young infantry officer is that hope is not a method. You don’t hope the enemy behaves in a certain way. You don’t hope support shows up at the right time. You don’t lead an operation that is based on hope.

As Herman Cain has shot to a surprising lead in the polls more attention has turned to his signature economic program: the 9-9-9 Plan.

There is a lot that is superficially attractive about the plan. It’s shortcoming is that it relies entirely on hope. Not just any hope but a hope that runs contrary to everything we know about human nature and the way government operates.

For the sake of argument we’ll stipulate that the Plan will do all those things Mr. Cain claims. It will produce more revenue in a fairer way than the current system. I don’t disagree with that. Sending regiments of Cossacks out to pillage the countryside would achieve the same purpose.

The plan is unrealistic for two reasons: Congress must pass it and Congress must sustain it.

Anyone can see the inherent difficulties in passing the bill. Between the armies of lobbyists who would oppose the bill and the armies of lobbyists trying to make the plan an 10-9-4.3 Plan to help their clients the odds of passage in anything resembling Mr. Cain’s proposal approach zero. Mr. Cain is not going to have 60 votes in the Senate to prevent a filibuster and even absent a filibuster the responsibility for taxation lies in the House of Representatives. The House rarely, if ever, shows deference to a president, even one of their own party, when it comes to this core function. Again hope is not a method.

Of course, I could be wrong on that because were I a Liberal Democrat I’d vote for this plan for a simple reason: it provides an additional source of taxation.

The idea that fiscal conservatives who have lambasted no less than Tom Coburn for not being sufficiently anti-tax thnk that giving the federal government a brand new tax, a national sales tax, is a good idea continues to baffle me.

You don’t have to be a genius to see how the 9-9-9 movie will end. It will be 10-10-10, 11-11-11, and so on because the plan makes no provision for capping increases.

I know, Mr. Cain has claimed the bill will require 2/3 vote of both the House and the Senate to change it. But just as he doesn’t have a vote, literally, in what the Conress might pass in the way of a revenue bill, he doesn’t control the rules the House and Senate will use to raise or lower the rate.

Absent a Constitutional amendment, which Mr. Cain is not advocating, there is no mechanism to prevent the Congress from changing a 2/3 vote requirement to a simple majority vote in some subsequent piece of legislation.

Conservative support for a sales tax or a VAT has historically been predicated upon the concurrent repeal of the Income Tax Amendment. That this long standing principle should be tossed aside makes no sense.

Mr. Cain’s plan has an appeal that some wonkish 57-point plan never will. That it is appealing doesn’t mean it is either workable or a good idea. The 9-9-9 Plan, even if it passes Congress in the form favored by Mr. Cain, simply cannot survive constant Congressional tinkering any more than did the original income tax. Plus it gives the federal government access to a revenue stream that it currently does not have. So it is hard to understand the excitement this plan is generating.

COMMENTS

  • clintonformccain

    unicorns and puppies and rainbows and leprchans all in one. It’s a great plan and it will be easy to pass in Washington! Oh, and he’s going to stop the seas from rising, too. Just like the last guy.

    • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

      For those jumping on Cain’s plan, how do you fix this? Are you really defending the current tax system and everything it stands for? If not, then how do you plan on fixing it?

      47% of voters pay zero in income taxes. What will it be like when 55-60% of voters pay zero in income taxes, and can vote themselves benefits from the government without any worries about where the money is comming from? The chart below is based on the pre-obama growth rate of non-taxpayer voters–this is where Republican policies would take us (Democratic policies would take us the same place, just more quickly). Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan is the only one that solves this problem:

      • lookingforward

        “Don’t knock Obamacare. The current system is broken so this has to be better.” Given the current political reality of career politicians owning congressional seats like property, suckling on the teet of lobbyists and creating breaks for campaign contributors and hometown industries, there are no easy answers. We didn’t get into this mess overnight, and we won’t get out overnight. What we need are election cycle after election cycle in which we replace Democrats and liberal/moderate Republicans with genuine, small-government conservatives. As they grow in number, we must hold their feet to the fire to pass constitutional amendements requiring both a balanced budget tied to GDP and term limits for Congress. Apart from these things, any other fixes are temporary and easily hijacked later.

        • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

          Mitt Romney’s economic plan is built around a large, middle-class-tax-cut. I love cutting taxes as much as anyone, but the hard fact is enacting it with the current system will move a lot of middle class voters entierly out of the taxpaying category and into the non-taxpaying category. We’ll go from 47% to probably 51% of voters that don’t pay any taxes.

          “I am the 53%” will become “I am the 49%”.

          This has been the pattern since 1984. Every few years we enact a middle-class-tax-cut. It’s popular with both parties, and it’s a great vote getter for politicians. But every time we do it, we move a few more voters from the taxpayer category into the non-taxpayer category. That’s why the numbers keep going up–under Republicans and Democrats–the numbers go up.

          We’re at the tipping point on this. If anyone else has another plan for dealing with this, I’m all ears. But we can’t ignore this.

          When it gets to be “I’m the 40%” we’re sunk. Given the trajectory of the increase in the past, we’re that far away from it–a decade, maybe a little more.

          I hate sounding like the Chicken Little in the room crying the sky is falling, but I’m perplexed that conservatives don’t see this as a major problem on par with the deficit and national debt.

          Really, am I the only one that thinks this is a major problem about to blow up in our face?

        • trickamsterdam

          The Term Limits amendment. They are my two main issues too. In fact I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say they they could fix quite literally all are domestic problems (as long as there are five reliable conservatives on the Supreme Court).

          Still, I’m realistic about it. Remember, amendments not only have to have the Congress, they need to be ratified by 3/4 of the states (I believe). It takes time and they would be very easy for blue states to block.

          Paul Ryan’s tax reform (put forth in the Path to Prosperity) and the “Mack Penny Plan” to balance the budget in seven years, are major reforms, and can pass, I believe, w/ only 50 senate votes and the VP.

          Think about it. We’re talking about major reforms passed w/in hours or days, not months or years. It’s w/in our grasp! All we need is the WH and the Senate. And both are not only attainable, they are likely attained.

          • davesinsanantonio

            nt

          • lookingforward

            You only need 3/5 of the states, and there would be little reason for even blue state legislators to oppose measures that don’t directly impact them at all and are very popular.

      • acat

        The Huntsman plan is one approach.

        I favor a tax “floor” or minimum amount due pegged at 1% of gross income.

        What this means is if person X earns $30,000 their income tax “floor” is $300. They must, if they file a 1040, pay at least $300 in tax. Note that the earned income “credit” (which can be received as a “refund” even if no tax is paid will easily cover this for the working poor .. it’s effectively ending a stealth welfare program that never should have been started)

        If person Y earns $1,000,000, their income tax “floor” is $10,000. Since, for most million dollar earners, there’s no way to have enough deductions to keep the tax payment that low to begin with, this won’t change anything, but for those who do find loopholes, this effectively closes them.

        If you want a more radical solution, there’s the “bill the States” approach, where the Fed stops taxing citizens directly and instead sends each State a bill for services rendered in the previous year, i.e. a per capita share of the national defense, NASA, welfare, etc. etc. but leaving it to each State to determine how to extract this payment from its’ citizens.

        Mew

        • macphisto96

          It’s important for everyone who earns money working to pay taxes and I like the idea of a tax floor.

          I prefer setting a flat tax or a simple tiered system for income. In the case of the flat tax, a generous deduction would be included per member of the household with a floor rate being the bottom. Let’s say the rate is 17% and each individual gets an automatic $10K deduction with no other write-offs. A family of three living off of $30K a year would have $0 in taxable income except in this case since there is a 1% minimum. So they would pay $300 and keep the rest (other than FICA and Medicare).

          A family of four earning $100K would get to have $40K tax free and would pay $10,200 in taxes, effectively a 10.2% rate for them. When the kids move out they pay more in taxes, but they also would theoretically be less burdened by the kids.

          And I’m all for a flat taxation system for profits earned in the US. We need to avoid double taxation, so no taxing profits already taxed by another country. I’d say if a finished product is sold by Company A in France then when that money comes back to the US it is not taxed. This would encourage export of US products. Just make it as simple as possible.

      • ihavehadit

        doesn’t work, as the current occupant of the White House proves. Hope and Change is killing us. If we are to change something we need a lot more input than a few economist that don’t want Cain to reveal them to scrunity or the light of day. When asked about these mental giants, Cain said he couldn’t reveal their names just now, he has been saying this for weeks. Are they ashamed to be associated with this wonderful plan??? I would be.

      • ihavehadit

        does not work. Just look to the occupant of the White House to see that. Hope and Change is killing us. Herman Cain, when asked who these mental giants were that helped create this 999 disaster, replied he couldn’t give their names just yet (been saying that for weeks) because he did not have their permission to reveal their names. Are they ashamed to be associated with this 999 plan??? I would be.

      • http://wingright.org bnuckols

        Then talk about taxes.

        • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

          blowing political capital on this right now is not smart.

      • rattlerjake

        All Cain’s plan does is change how the money comes in from the current tax program ; and eventually the politicians will establish rules upon rules, and loopholes. Besides, it still does not force EVERYONE to be a taxpayer; when you tax income you effectively miss all of those who are paid “under the table” or have side businesses that claim no income. It is no answer! If people would spend the time and read and understand the Fairtax system, they would see that the Fairtax system is the only possible solution. Buy have ing a retail sales tax, you abolish the IRS, everyone pays taxes based on the amount of money spent, and this includes illegals, and foreign visitors. Prices on goods will decrease substantially because all of the costs that a company adds to the end product due to taxes and paying tax proffessionals will be no more. Wake up America, we can be the first country to be debt free and have businesses fighting to produce their products here.

        • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

          “All Cain?s plan does is change how the money comes in from the current tax program”

          Yes, that is The Essense of All Tax Reform…

          “when you tax income you effectively miss all of those who are paid ?under the table? or have side businesses that claim no income”

          That’s a defect of the CURRENT system. Lower tax rate of 9% will encourage higher compliance. Sales taxes are easier to track and collect with less compliance overhead (there are fewer point-of-sales places compared with income earners).

          “Buy have ing a retail sales tax, you abolish the IRS” Um, no, you still have (sales) tax collectors.

          Anyway, arguing against Cain’s plan, which is designed as a transition to the FAIR Tax, is a bit unfair.

          • rattlerjake

            You can’t be serious. Example: If I’m doing landscaping, right now, and bringing home $40,000 a year and not paying any income taxes (0%), do you really think I’m interested in complying and paying your 9%? Get real. Only an idiot would believe so; and because I’m a low or no income family I qualify for numerous government entitlement programs. With Cain’s 9-9-9 you still have the burdensome tax forms and codes (maybe simpler but there are three different taxes to deal with), refunds, tax agents, businesses still will need tax consutants, etc. The Fair tax does away with all of this, businesses (simply) send in the sales taxes required, and government bases their budget on what is taken in, this can be handled by a slightly expanded budget office for each state and the FED. In addition, this country needs to force our government officials to stop being a charity (foreign or domestic), or being an “investor”. All “giveaway” programs need to cease and let churches, charities, foundations, and the like assume their role again, as they will do it more effectively, with far less waste, and not allow generations of leeches to mooch their way through life. All education, health, and retirement programs need to be private sector, as they are a business and need to turn a profit and protrect from fraud and waste, We need to remove sympathy from the equation, when someone makes a bad decision, they need to deal with it and learn from their mistake, charities can step in for assistance, but not make the rest of us part of their problem.. Cain’s plan is no transition to the Fairtax, it does nothing but redistribute taxation and allows for law makers to start another book of tax codes. Consumption tax is simple, staight forward, and easy.

    • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

      That is exactly the simple fix for most of the complaints directed at the 9-9-9 plan in this aricle.

      The solution is to add a stipulation to the sales tax portion of his plan. The sales tax won’t go into effect until a constitutional amendment passes that:

      (1) Prohibits the federal government from having a VAT (value added tax).

      (2) Requires a 2/3 majority to raise taxes (a proposal that by itself could garner a significant amount of votes, given the nation’s current mood).

      If the amendment is never ratified, then the sales tax part would never take affect, and the plan would just be a simple flat tax (a 9-9-0 plan).

      I can’t imagine many conservatives that wouldn’t be comfortable (much less enthusiastic) about a flat tax, which is exactly what the Cain plan would be until the amendment passed.

      • trickamsterdam

        conservatives over-estimate Democratic courage in raising taxes. They had 60 senate votes, and they wouldn’t even raise taxes on the “rich”, which I believe w/ budget reconciliation would only have required 50 + VP.

        They just failed again to get a simple majority for the “millionaires’ surtax” (two voted to not filibuster, but would’ve voted against the actual deal).

        What makes people think Democrats would have the guts to raise a sales tax on EVERYONE?

        So I think this idea that the sales tax wouldn’t stay at nine is completely paranoid (IMO).

        That being said I prefer the tax reform Paul Ryan put forth in the Path to Prosperity budget. It can pass w/ on 50 + the VP and it WILL WORK.

    • holymoly

      Of course it won’t work our exactly as Cain wants it to, I don’t think anybody is pretending otherwise. At least he’s got a plan.

      • ihavehadit

        How is that working for you. Saying at least he has a plan is scary. I though the Republican Party was the smart party, what am I missing here? I don’t want a plan just to have a plan. My goodness that is a dangerous philosophy to adopt.

        • http://www.StanOlshefski.com Stan Olshefski

          Cain has committed himself to tax code simplification and lowering rates.

          Maybe we won’t get the 9-9-9 plan, but if we get a simpler tax code with lower rates we still win.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            but we really do not need much simplification right now, the tax code is not nearly as complex as it used to be, and rates are very low historically.

            I just do not think this is the correct thing to spend your political capital on right now.

            Regulation and spending is what is killing us. And killing us fast.

            This is like trying to re-paint your boat while it has a big hole in it and you are sinking.

        • california_red

          Obama had no plan. He had hot air and slogans.

          • davesinsanantonio

            what it was. He said he was going to fundamentally change the United States of America. He said he would see to it that electricity rates skyrocketed and that coal companies would be put out of business. He said he wanted $5 a gallon gasoline, and hinted that he hoped it would go higher than that. He had a plan alright, and to pretend he didn’t is just playing into his hand.

    • danderby

      Talking about unicorns, our current tax system is quite the mythical creature – loopholes and social engineering wrapped in complexity and vagueness. Our current system allows politicians and crony capitalists and feel good special interest to carve out exemptions and rewards without us, the taxpayer, being any the wiser. To me, it doesn’t matter if we have a flat tax, a fair tax, a sales tax, or any other taxing mechanism. What matters is transparency – can I directly see how much is being collected and spent. Can we eliminate deductions which encourage use to increase our personal debt (mortgage), spend more on government approved items (itemized deductions) and the thousands of other loopholes? It is the fog created by the complexity of our tax system which allows politicans to play games and line pockets. Steve Forbe’s idea of a flat tax still makes a lot of sense – a post card sized tax form where you enter your net income on one line, multiply it by .1 or Caine’s .09 – and voila, your tax bill. Think about the savings in terms of accountants and tax services! As for adding a sales tax, if it encourages people to save more, great.

      • dio55

        http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46828

        Sorry there was no nicer way to put that but there just isn’t. I mean Art Laffer THE art laffer’s opinion over a bunch of armchair economists ouch thats gotta hurt

    • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

      Art Laffer, the father of supply side economics, the economist that designed the Reagan economic strategy that pulled the country out of the Jimmy Carter recession and laid the foundation for 20 years of economic prosperity has just endorsed…

      Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 economic plan!

      “Herman Cain?s 9-9-9 plan would be a vast improvement over the current tax system and a boon to the U.S. economy,” Laffer told HUMAN EVENTS in a statement.

      http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46828

      • http://nerds4cain.com Brookhaven

        Added Laffer: “Mr. Cain?s plan is simple, transparent, neutral with respect to capital and labor, and savings and consumption, and also greatly decreases the hidden costs of tax compliance. There is no doubt that economic growth would surge upon implementation of 9-9-9.”

        • californiagold

          As I stated in another post. Art Laffer has a mixed record on economic predictions.

          Shortly before the housing bubble began to burst, Art Laffer was on TV claiming the economy was fine, and that the housing market was strong.

          The point is, Laffer completely missed the signs that showed a huge problem with the bubble.

          • dio55

            Silly point dealt with by many others including laffer who said and i quote. I am no longer at the white house so the only economic information i have acess to was public Info that was deliberatly gerrmandered so people like me are decieved.
            That is why no one saw the meltdown as imminent

        • rightwingmom52

          . .
          .

    • circlegranch

      Romney has been polishing debating skills; Cain has been doing talk radio and working on a book; Newt’s been writing books and been on Hannity’s payroll, Santorum has been angry, Huntsman’s been working for Obama. Perry, Bachmann and Paul have actually held jobs during this mess. Size up Bachmann’s and Paul’s accomplishments for yourself but Perry signed a balanced budget in the 2nd largest state that is also the world’s 4th largest economy. He defunded Planned Parenthood (both Romney and Cain refused to sign the pro-life pledge sponsored by the Susan B Anthony Life organization). Rick Perry is the NRA endorsed candidate and his stance on immigration is anything but weak. He signed law requiring photo ID to vote and student ID isn’t acceptable (Texas gun owner ID is).
      There’s a very funny Jimmy Kimmel piece where he portrays Romney and his flip flops and then Perry asking what happened to his lead. He asks “are ya’ll breakin’ up with me?” Well, Rick alot of us don’t want to break up with you but you gotta do your part in this relationship!

      • msjallen

        and interesting observation of the candidates.

      • bzip

        You make good points and I agree to a degree. Perry got in the race late and is a active working governor.

        In addition, Perry has stated he is giving a policy speech this Friday and will continue making policy speeches moving forward.

        Patience, please. I don’t think that ia asking much.

  • griffinelection

    this tax could get out of control very quickly. The goal should be to cut taxes rather than find new ways to keep taxing. This is a bad idea that I fear would encourage people to sell goods “on the black market” because they wouldn’t have to pay higher taxes on those goods. I am glad conservatives are taking an honest look at the Cain campaign.

    • http://www.rightreality.wordpress.com andysmith

      Sounds like Perry/Romney/Santorum talking points here.
      You want tax cuts? Well, the 9-9-9 plan eliminates the payroll tax. It also eliminates the capital gains tax, death tax, and eliminates double taxation of dividens. Aside from dropping the rate down to 9%, that’s a pretty huge cut in and of itself from an individual standpoint. The business tax rate also drops down to 9% as well. Compare that to the current tax rates on businesses and try to tell me it’s NOT a tax cut. He has also mentioned empowerment zones where 9-9-9 could be lowered.
      Regarding the objection to the national sales tax portion of the plan, the cuts mentioned before would more than offset this. The 9% retail tax also replaces the currently imbedded taxes on items purchased at the retail level.
      And the argument that’s made about 9-9-9 being 10-10-10, get real. Santorum is talking about a zero percent corporate tax. Fair enough. You can say the same thing that his coporate tax rate can go up. You can say tax cuts under Romney, Huntsman, or any other candidate for that matter can go up also. So since it can happen to any candidate, does that mean they shouldn’t come up with plans and talk about them?
      Seriously, a few of you are starting to sound quite elitist; making Cain supporters sound like simpletons with no understanding, making Cain himself sound less than credible because he has no political experience, and attacking his plan by either blatantly leaving points out or not doing enough research. We already have enough of that on the other side.

    • texanlady

      How can anyone propose a 9% national sales tax on top of a state 8%sales tax. It will run local retailers out of business. Will amazon have to pay the feds? They don’t have to pay the states.

      • acat

        And the Amazon question is a very good one…. and also applies to all catalog and online retailers.

        Mew

        • dio55

          I support cain for one reason mor than every other and this is it . He can win us elections FOR DECADES TO COME . look 999 is not loved by me but whatever is in it can be fixed and no other polititian in recent memory is able to admit he is wrong like Herman Cain has. so 999 is a NON ISSUE to me . But with cain as nominee and president will be the ATOMIC bomb that will forever explode the angry white old men myth that the democratic party spent decades fostering and used to win countless elections. But hey keep the circular firing squad going so we end up with RINO ROMNEY. like i said Stuck on stooooopid .

          • acat

            I just don’t want to add a tax, have Cain lose re-election and the Dems retake congress, and see the rates jump…

            That said, and while a Cain-Obama debate would be incredible, I think there’s too many reflexive dems – that is, people who default to voting Dem or defending Dem politicians out of habit – for the kind of shattering you’re looking for.

            Mew

          • dio55

            The architect of the greatest economic turnaround in american and world history known as THE REGAN ADMINISTRATION says..
            “Herman Cain?s 9-9-9 plan would be a vast improvement over the current tax system and a boon to the U.S. economy,” Laffer told HUMAN EVENTS in a statement. “The goal of supply-side tax reform is always a broadening of the tax base and lowering of marginal tax rates.”

            Added Laffer: “Mr. Cain?s plan is simple, transparent, neutral with respect to capital and labor, and savings and consumption, and also greatly decreases the hidden costs of tax compliance. There is no doubt that economic growth would surge upon implementation of 9-9-9.”

            Laffer also said that “such a system provides the least avenues to avoid paying taxes, yet also maintains the strongest incentives for work effort, production, and investment.”

            Like i said before to cain haters Stuck on stupid

          • californiagold

            Sometime Laffer gets it right. Other times he lays a big goose egg. Like in 2005 when he went on TV and said the Bush economy was doing just fine and that the housing market was strong.

            Two years later the housing bubble burst causing the biggest economic decline since the great depression.

          • ihavehadit

            to elect someone just because he is the right color is not exactly bright. We need a leader who can get this country back on tract with real ideals not slogans and fancy speeches.

          • dio55

            the only dig all you Rinoromney fans had on cain was 999 when that got slapped to the groung by non other than Art Laffer you play a race card Pathetic just pathetic . How do i know you are a Romneybot?
            perry is now seen as a buffoon
            bachman is now seen as nutjob
            newt and santorum have no chance
            so i guess you support who ron paul or huntsman
            so lets recap
            cain- right on 999
            cain- right on immigration
            cain- right on obamacare
            cain-only guy speaking up on occupy wall street
            cain-only guy fearlessly taking it to obama
            STUCK ON STUPID …now wth examples

          • msjallen

            the American voters like Cain?s 999 plan and he gets elected then he has the leverage to get it passed since he could say to Congress to pass it or you might not get elected again.
            Question: If 999 does pass, will people give as much to their church or charity if there is not a tax write-off?

          • avagreen

            Color should pay no difference whatsoever in solely detemining whether or not the elect/not elect someone.

            Policies are what counts, not color. For whatever reason.
            Racism is still racism regardless of how it’s used.
            Racism: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

          • msjallen

            appeals to the American voters and Cain is elected then he has the leverage to get it passed in Congress (or they may be voted out). I am sure it needs some fine tuning and we do need a simpler tax code that includes everyone to pay taxes.
            One question: Will people give less to their church or charity if there is no write-off?

        • The_Gadfly

          The “Amazon question” is nothing of the sort. Catalog exemptions rely not on statue, but a very old SCOTUS opinion which relies on two things. First the person or company making the sale does not have a physical place of business within the jurisdiction trying to collect the tax. Second, that forcing those people to track and implement all the sales taxes implemented across the country is a gargantuan task. A flat national sales tax meets neither of those requirements and would clearly pass constitutional muster.

          You can oppose Cain’s 9-9-9 plan on other grounds, but not the Amazon tax question. I’m not so sure of it myself, but really, don’t reach for the strawmen.

          • avagreen

            so, no I don’t want a flat tax to “replace” something that doesn’t exist in this state.

          • acat

            catalog sales be exempt from a *national* sales tax?

            That’s the “amazon question” as it applies to 9-9-9.

            Mew

      • http://www.rightreality.wordpress.com andysmith

        REPLACES the currently imbedded taxes on retail items. It’s not like it’s going to be another 9% added on top of what you’re already paying for.

  • DerKrieger

    … that he is willing to articulate. It’s a lot more than the rest of the field. And personally I regard it as more of a conversation starter because as we all know, bills originate in the House of Representatives, not the White House so this is more of a negotiating position when he makes his case to the public and the Congress.
    Cain is expressing a his desire for tax reform. We can disagree but at least he’s talking about it.

    • streiff

      but just because he has a plan doesn’t mean we should like the plan and you don’t address the central issue. Is this even a plan or is it simply a “conversation starter.”?

    • septembergurl

      Really? Romney has a 59 point plan for tax reform, tax cuts, job creation. Jon Huntsman’s jobs plan has tax cuts, and major sweeping tax reform and has been widely praised and analyzed, even by Erick!

      Herb’s own economic advisor, Robbins, who claimed the plan was “revenue neutral” says today that it isn’t so much a plan as it is a general idea. It could work economically (doubtful) but would be difficult politically. No kidding!

      Herb Cain has a big and deep faith in the abilities of “experts” to get things done for the benefit of the people, a faith I don’t share and which is antithetical to the spirit of the Tea Party, I would have thought. He has a lot in common with Mittens in that regard. Big gummint conservatives.

      If we want to have a conversation about tax reform that would be worthwhile. Herb Cain is not by any means the only one talking about it, as you seem to think.

      • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

        When Romney touted $20 billion in cuts on page 3 of his plan, that really got to me. My reaction: $20 billion?!? Is that ALL?!?

        Gingrich properly skewered Romney’s wimpy unwillingness to SIMPLIFY and FLATTEN the tax system. He will cut taxes for people under $200,000 … ooops, more ‘progressive’ taxation, complexity, rates, rules.

        Cain is right. we have to chuck the whole system to make a clean sheet system.

        Cain is right. We need, if we want to favor production, tax consumption more and production less.

        It’s absolutely right to call this a conversation starter. What’s wrong with a plan that actually would be a huge economic benefit if it were to pass?

        And btw, who is “Herb”?

        • septembergurl

          he had *a plan* — which is correct. I was responding to Der Krieger above who stated that only Herb had a tax plan. That is factually incorrect, a lie, etc, so I pointed that out.

          I call Cain *Herb* because that is what Sarah called him as he began his rise. She also used to call Romney “Milt” because she didn’t think anyone could have a name as dumb as “Mitt”. So I used to call Romney *Milt* for a while because it amused me.

          So I’ll call him “Herb” until it doesn’t amuse me any more, or until his 15 minutes is up, whichever comes first.

          • The_Gadfly

            the only one with a plan he was willing to articulate. Romney has a 59 point plan, but as was shown by his non-response to Cain’s question during the debate, he isn’t willing to articulate it. Just a “go read my white paper” response. If you can’t outline the basic premise of your plan during a debate, it either isn’t going anywhere, or is just as complicated and messed up as the current system.

            You are probably correct about Huntsman, but he really gets the ‘Huntsman? Who is he?’ response from voters. And I for one don’t regard him as part of the field. He’s taken over the comic relief role.

          • annplato

            If you are here to amuse yourself with names, denigrating potential and well liked candidates, then you don’t belong here. I do believe facebook and other social networks are for amusement.
            Mr. Cain’s 9-9-9 has it flaws that can be ironed out, but it is definitely a good start: widening the tax base, everyone having “skin in the game”, revenue neutral and simplification that makes it transparent are ALL good.

          • streiff

            but nothing you mentioned in your first paragraph is any business of yours whatsoever on this site. You don’t own it, you don’t post of the front page, you don’t moderate it. You don’t tell other people what the rules are because you don’t make them. If you aren’t cool with that then you need to waddle off to some other site.

          • annplato

            maybe you should be doing what I did.

            Who does it help to mock both Palin and Herman Cain in one breath?

      • avagreen

        ^^

    • clintonformccain

      Everybody’s got one.

      The only thing I look at is the guy’s (or gal’s) track record. I don’t give two shoots what they “say” they are going to do.Heck, even Breck Girl had all kinds of wonderful sounding plans.

      I’m looking at what they’ve actually done. Do they even have the first clue what the job entails? Nobody is prepared to be President, but occassionally candidates actually have halfway decent preparation.

  • bootwearinsmith

    lying to me when he says that it will not just end up as another tax hike, or is he really that naive about the way Washington works?

    • streiff

      In business everyone on your team is working towards the same goal: profit and bonuses.

      In politics that isn’t the case. About half your team is actively trying to block whatever you are doing and most of the rest of your team thinks they can do your job better than you and try to show the world they are right.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      What’s wrong with the thinking here is that “see, a future Congress could raise taxes under this new system.” as if that is some particular feature of a world where 9-9-9 is law.

      Well guess what – A FUTURE CONGRESS COULD RAISE TAXES UNDER THE STATUS QUO TAX SYSTEM.

      In fact, 50 Senate Democrats voted last night to raise taxes by HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS! Obama added taxes galore in Obamacare.

      The idea that the sales tax would be easier to increase is actually IMHO backwards. Since the tax hits everyone, it will be hard to raise that tax rate. Conversely, it would be easier to raise the income tax rate. that is what 99% and the ‘millionaires’ and corporate jets is all about.

      We puncture that class warfare ONLY if we have the simplest and cleanest tax system, not prey to loopholes and rejiggering.

      If 9-9-9 tax does unravel, it would unravel by having the Democrats attack the upper rate income tax, as they are doing TODAY under the status quo system. You could make the argument that the low income tax rates give more ‘room to grow’, but beyond that, this is no worse and no better than today on that score.

      So he’s not being naive or dishonest. The ability and desire of Democrats in office to raise taxes is a BUG in our political system.

      The ONLY real cure is a “Taxpayers Protection Amendment”.
      Republicans need to write into the Congressional rules, and get passed as a Constitutional amendment, rules that set a supermajority requirement to raise taxes. Cain has already pointed out that as a need.

      You could argue ‘well it wont pass’ but that is an argument made against BBA. So we shouldnt be for it? or for term limits? etc.

      • avagreen

        which Congress could then raise in addition to “raising” all the other taxes, as you correctly say.

        Hasn’t there been a push to get a “national sales tax” before, and it was squashed ?

        Of course, Cain is reflecting Bummer’s suggestion who is in favor of a national tax, yet another reason for ME to consider Cain as just another ,,,,RINO.

        http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2010/04/obama-says-that-national-sales-tax-is.html

        • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

          It takes away the payroll taxes for one.
          That payroll tax started at 1% and got to 15%. If Democrats like Pelosi had their way, it would go higher and the Obamacare bill kicks up the Medicare portion.

          So you are only seeing the downside of an added tax and not the upside of an abolished tax.

  • bzip

    ?it is hard to understand the excitement this plan is generating.? It?s hard for me to understand the excitement Cain is generating. I realize he talks good, okay fine! So does my next door neighbor.

    He first major signature plan, the 999 plan shows all of us the disaster his judgment would invoke upon us. A new nation al sales tax, just what the liber?s always dream about.

    I am sickened, I see the same zombies out that I saw in 2008. Good grief, the guy has no political experience though he tried for a senate race and lost (can we say Cain is a politician and not a good one).

    Cain makes many gaffes, but worse is he supported TARP, thinks highly of Greenspan, isn?t too concerned about auditing the fed, calls fellow blacks ?brainwashed? gets involved in a racial bait against a fellow conservative, won?t support a another conservative if that conservative won the nomination instead, etc, etc The list goes on and on.

    Yet we have the Cain Train, The Magic Cain and the media falling all over him now with zombies running about rabbling on about the Magic Cain Train. Good grief, have we gotten a tingle up are leg yet.

    • clintonformccain

      “It?s hard for me to understand the excitement Cain is generating. I realize he talks good, okay fine! So does my next door neighbor.”

      ——————–

      It’s not hard to understand the mood of the country. Heck, they nominated Sharon Angle and Christine O’Donnell. The belief right now is that any ol’ idiot off the street could go and fix Washington. It’s the price we pay for our government losing the confidence of the people.

      Ironically, the way to fix Wahsington is to elect people who truly know how the levers and pulleys work and can get things done. Obama is a failed President, in large part, because he doesn’t understand that doing things to get Republican support would result in better policy.

      • Change Jar Conservative

        I don’t like it and that’s why I’m hoping that Perry will come out with a flat tax.

        Ideally, a flat tax with only personal deductions, but slightly higher deductions than now since you’d be getting rid of mortgage interest deduction and charitable giving deduction.

      • avagreen

        People need to research Cain better before throwing their support behind him just because he portrays himself as a D.C. “outsider”.

        Putting someone into office simply because he’s “not a politician” isn’t free from danger.
        Witness what happened during the populist movement after the French Revolution when much of the same thought prevailed.

  • apocomilitiaman

    We pushed hard for Tea Party candidates and won BIG in Novemeber 2010, we are pushing hard to get rid of OBUMMER. If we PUSH hard for the plan then the HOUSE will act and when we take the SENATE and the PRESIDENCY we will push hard for the plan with those guys too.

    OR is OBAMMA right and we got a little soft?

  • floridaveteran

    Your arguments that only Congress can create these tax protocols is true for ALL tax programs and ideas. So that can’t be a valid argument against the Cain plan or it is an argument against ALL tax reform plans.

    Congress can change the tax code whenever it wants to. The problem is we do not have a leader that can articulate a position concerning what Congress should enact. Wait a minute we do have such a person! Cain!

    You assert that the Cain plan cannot be enacted through Congress, but you also assert that we must repeal the 16th amendment! Which one of these actions is harder to effect? The repeal of course! So you support the more difficult pathway, but say Cain’s idea is a nonstarter!

    What is the plan of any of the other people running for the republican nomination?

    • Lamplighter331

      A lot of “our” advocates in the House and Senate espouse “Cut, Cap and Balance”, which entails, among other things, the passage of a Balanced Budget Amendment. Who’s to say that its passage will be any easier than passing 9-9-9? This is especially the case when considering amending the Constitution takes a great deal more effort and pragmatism than passing 9-9-9 would, and repealing an amendment? Good luck with that.

      I have my doubts about 9-9-9, even as an interim step. With the toddlers we have in Washington, we can’t do half steps. Either do a flat tax, a single rate for everyone, OR do a national sales tax. We can’t do both.

      Be that as it may, when I watched last night’s debate and Romney couldn’t articulate the points in his plan and Speaker Gingrich was referring to “page 47, section B of the Romney 5700 point plan”, I think people can see the allure of what Cain is proposing. It’s simple and it gets to the heart of the matter.

      We need to reduce rates on individuals and corporations AND we need to make the tax system fairer. Almost 50% don’t pay income taxes…that is not sustainable.

      • JSobieski

        At a minimum, Cain should get some points for some out of the box thinking.

        • The_Gadfly

          seem to be missing is that it isn’t even credit for out of the box thinking, it’s credit for just plain old thinking. All the pundits said Reagan’s tax relief was DOA, instead it started a 25 year economic boom that required 2 terms of a Democrat president, 1 term with a Republican place holder, and an Islamofascist war to stop. And no, I’m not including the current Marxist’s term in that count.

          I’m not saying I necessarily like his plan, but a plan you can articulate beats no plan, or a plan that puts people to sleep, any day of the week.

    • kinggold

      Real pushback from the camp whose candidate showed up to an economic debate sans an economic plan.

      It seems to me that the only candidates with a coherent plan are Romney and Cain. The others seem to want to talk about how the tax rates go up (as if that couldn’t happen now) and how 999 adds a sales tax (conveniently omitting the sharp personal and business income tax cuts.)

      • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

        “It seems to me that the only candidates with a coherent plan are Romney and Cain. ”

        So Newt and Santorum are Chopped liver?
        COME ON.

        First of all, Romney’s plan is NOT coherent. His ’59 points’ are a mish-mash and watering down of MUCH better ideas out there.
        Newt has a ‘contract’.

        Cain is bolder and economically better. Criticisms that are valid are wholly centered around the politics of it.

        I will say this much: ROMNEY DOES NOT GO FAR ENOUGH. His plans are wimpy, squishy, he doesnt cut taxes nor fix the fundamental system nor cut spending boldly and strongly enough.

        Putting him on a pedastal for his plan while ignoring the better ideas from frankly ALL the other candidates is wrong.

    • streiff

      1. 9-9-9 is pretty silly when you look at it.

      2. There are better tax simplification plans out there.

      3. I do not assert that we “must repeal the 16th Amendment.” I say that the historic conservative position on a sales tax is that it can only be implemented if the 16th is repealed so we won’t end up with both a national sales and income tax.

      No one else’s plan makes any difference this story is about 9-9-9. If you want to talk about someone else’s plan write your own story.

      • nick2253

        the criticism.

        1. You assert that 9-9-9 is silly because of the potential for abuse. However, what stops Congress from raising the current income tax rate to 50%? Nothing. The only thing that stops Congress is the people voting for Congressmen and women who won’t increase taxes. We the people have the final say. 9-9-9 is wonderful for the reason that everyone can know it and internalize it. If it stops being 9-9-9, then more people will be like “say what? That isn’t right!” which will lead to efforts to stop it changing. Also, 9-9-9 isn’t just about adding a sales tax. 9-9-9 removes all taxes, including the dreaded payroll tax, and replaces EVERYTHING with three flat taxes: personal income, corporate income, and sales. If 9-9-9 gives politicians the “tool” of a national sales tax, it also takes away the capital gains tax, the inheritance tax, the payroll tax, etc.

        2. The better tax simplification plans that you purpose in your article all stem from repealing the 16th amendment. Even if you include tax simplification in the form of a flat tax, or just a removal of deductions and credits from the tax code, there are still NO MECHANISMS by which those changes can be enforced. There is nothing to prevent it from going right back to where it was.

        3. The only way to ENSURE compliance with a plan is to pass a constitutional amendment. But even then, a large enough majority could over turn it. And that applies to ALL TAX REFORM. Instead of criticizing 9-9-9 for a weakness that all tax reform plans have, criticize it for weaknesses that are unique to the plan, like:

        - 9-9-9 increases the tax burden on the poor by 9x.
        - 9-9-9 may cut Federal Revenue in half.
        - 9-9-9 may tax food and medicine purchases, something only two states do.
        - 9-9-9 may tax home and car purchases.

        Demanding that a plan be unchangeable except with a Constitutional Amendment is unrealistic. As they say, don’t let perfection get in the way of progress.

        • jrhode2873

          Explaining the good points about 999 and even pointing out the potential weaknesses.

          • nick2253

            “but the tax rate might go up” red herring.

            Like I said, all tax rates can go up. Unless you use a Constitutional Amendment, taxes will be at the whims of politicians. It’s up to THE PEOPLE to prevent those whims from being “raise taxes.”

            These arguments are the same that we see with any tax reform. And, quite honestly, they apply to all tax reforms. To complain that any one system is better than the other, or even better or worse than the current system, because the “planned rates” won’t likely stay the same is misleading.

            It’s one thing to aim for the pie-in-the-sky of a BBA. Hell, that’s on my radar, and I really, really hope I’ll see it in my lifetime. But to ignore tax reform along the way is fallacious.

          • jrhode2873

            The bottom line is that there is nothing in place to keep any Congress from raising taxes with our without Cain’s tax reform plan. I actually think his plan makes it more difficult to raise taxes because I believe it is way more transparent than the current system.

          • n2sooners

            What kept a democrat controlled house, a democrat controlled senate, and a democrat president from raising taxes when all they had to do was absolutely nothing?

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            I agree. If it’s a better tax system, it is no more and no less subject to abuse and change by future Congressional acts.

            Transparency is a plus.

            And additional revenue stream is a minus.

            But it should be judged on the plan, not some hypothetical.

          • nick2253

            when the moderator asked Romney about a possible European collapse.

            He was like (rightfully so), “I don’t want to comment on hypotheticals,” and the moderator was like “it’s not a hypothetical, because it might probably happen.”

            Earth to moderator: anything that hasn’t happened, or won’t happen with certainty, is a hypothetical. Just saying it isn’t doesn’t make it so.

  • Scott

    I don’t know if the plan can pass or not, but I sure am tired of hearing conservatives crying about how bad this plan is b/c it can’t pass.

    Do you suppose the Democrats screamed at each other that Obamacare could never pass? I doubt it. As terrible as it it, the Dems got behind something big and they made it happen. Everyone on here has quit before we even have won an election.

    I am not necessarily a Herman Cain supporter, but he is darn sure growning on me. This country is in dire need of major tax reform. Why can’t we get behind a plan that will take the IRS out of our personal and business lives forever. You want to unleash American businesses? Imagine if they had all the money they put towards tax reporting to reinvest in their businesses.

    • streiff

      it is a horrible plan that will saddle us with a national sales tax to go with a national income tax and no way to cap the rates. How does 30-30-30 sound to you”? Because that is what 9-9-9 is in a decade.

      • kinggold

        What’s going to stop Congress from changing the top marginal tax rate to 50% on the personal and corporate taxes?

        What’s going to stop Congress from increasing import duties and excise taxes?

        In short, what’s going to stop them from raising the rate in any existing tax?

        • streiff

          that is just a profoundly disturbed position to take.

          Do you know what the top marginal rate was under Eisenhower?

          The answer to all of your questions is that there is absolutely nothing to keep
          Congress from raising the highest marginal tax rate into the mid-90s like it did under FDR. That is why creating another federal tax is a bad idea.

          • kinggold

            And starkly indicative of an agenda.

          • streiff

            of being booted is making up arguments on my behalf.

            9-9-9 will be increased because that is the nature of taxation. Always has been. Always will be. Arguing that 9-9-9 will freeze the rate marks you as someone who is no longer taken seriously.

          • kinggold

            is deliberately misrepresenting the plan, and shows rank ignorance about the nature of tax rate increases in the current political dynamic.

            For perspective, why were the 90% marginal rates cut? Because, of course, taxes never ever go down. You said so yourself.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            yeah, some liberalsthink that was wonderful.

            Oh, and Eisenhower is Romney’s favorite President.

            So, we turn away from 9-9-9, elect Romney and in his second term, due to ‘high deficits’ the Democrats demand a 50% top marginal rate in the tax code. for ‘fairness’.

            Romney signs it in the interest of “working with good Democrats”.

            How is that any less likely than a 30-30-30? The Red Herring is not that future tax increases arent possible. The Red Herring is that somehow the STATUS QUO tax system is immune to that BUG in the system. it isnt.

        • papabear

          Unicorns and puppies and rainbows and leprechauns!!!

          /sarc

          No offense intended to Streiff, but I too find his argument is exiguous.

          With all respect, I ask master Streiff, are you completely naive? Have you looked at the existing tax code?

          As a minimum, 999 would reset the complexity by decades. It would slim the regulations by orders of magnitude. It would actually be possible for business owners to easily comply with tax code.

          The last time I dealt with the IRS, the agent refused to guarantee me that complying with his advice would keep me free from IRS prosecution!!!

          • streiff

            you got me. Guilty.

            I would agree that a magic wand would decrease the tax code, too. By more than 9-9-9. And it would be just as realistic.

            BTW, 9=9=9 doesn’t get rid of the IRS, in fact, the creation of a new federal tax implies just the opposite.

            Tax simplification has been a conservative position for decades. Creating a new federal tax is not a conservative position.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            Yes it has been.

            Cain’s plan is surely not perfect. But it has the merit of significant
            FLATNESS and significant SIMPLIFICATION.

            On both counts, its a good conservative proposal.

      • Scott

        There is nothing to stop congress from raising taxes at any time other than fear of backlash. What does it matter if you have your sales tax raised or your income tax raised? Do you feel better knowing it came out of your pay on the front end? I would argue that a tax height that the public sees immediately would be the greatest deterrent to raising taxes that we could ever hope for.

        I cannot believe all conservatives are not for a flat tax system of some sort. Politicians of both parties have used the tax code to create a class of people that pay no taxes at all yet these people still demand the rich pay more. Make no mistake, the R’s have not helped this problem. Everytime there has ever been a tax cut, it also required that we cut the lower tax brackets so the politicians can say they gave X amount of tax cuts to those people. The problem is that those people long ago stopped paying taxes and are now on the receiving end of the tax code. We must break this cycle.

  • pdawk

    I guess you are the next victim of the RickState front page mafia.

    • Lamplighter331

      People like Herman Cain, but they aren’t as invested as some people were in Palin. Also, I didn’t see anything in the posting here that said the Redstate honchos were opposed to Cain, but were raising valid concerns about his economic plan.

      The best steel comes from the hottest fire…what do you think the lefties will do to Cain, should he win the nomination. He’s got to be able to defend and promote his plan OR amend it in a way that wins…else all he’s doing is selling books.

      • kinggold

        How many times was “voodoo economics” used against Ronald Reagan in 1980 to say “even Republicans think his economic ideas are bad.”

        The deep investigative journalists at the RS might not want to poison the well too much, especially on the slim chance that Cain wins the nomination and 999 becomes party (and conservative) platform.

      • pdawk

        The front pagers on this site jump into action to discredit them. Whether it is Bachmann, Palin, Romney, Christie, etc. if you have any momentum that would be adverse to the marble mouthed Governor of Texas you will be a target.

        • kinggold

          Is Governor Perry going to have to call in Lionel Logue to properly attack Romneycare?

          • pdawk

            Watching last nights debates I thought it would be funny if Rick Perry just did a Chinese theater type presentation on his answers. He could be asked the question and he would just move his mouth while Newt hid behind him and answered the question. Rick’s mouth and the answer might not be in rhythm, but it would sure sound a hell of a lot better coming out.

          • kinggold

            n/t

          • avagreen

            could be just as aptly applied to folks such as yourself.

            The hatred of this man is palpable. And, the only evidence that I hear over and over are lies, myths, and misrepresentations of his views and our State.

            But, as a good citizen, I guess I/we should sit by and say nothing. Correct?

    • jrhode2873

      You are so right.

      • papabear

        nt

  • jrhode2873

    This is just more poor analysis about the 999 plan. Fixating on the sales tax without looking at the plan as a whole. First of all, if Cain gets elected running on this plan he will do so with a mandate and some form of it will almost certainly get passed. Second of all, it is not intellectually honest to point out the new source of revenue without pointing out all of the streams of revenue it eliminates such as the payroll tax, capital gains tax, and the death tax. There are all sorts of ways Congress can raise taxes at the moment and this 999 plan would actually reduce that while at the same time making the tax code more simple and more transparent. I think its gonna make it more difficult to raise taxes because of the transparency and its gonna make it more difficult to play the class warfare game because of the flat rates. The brilliance in the plan is that stretches across the ideological spectrum to find support and disdain. Everybody has something to hate and to love about 999 which means its probably a good plan!

    • streiff

      The whole plan is an appeal to hope. Hope Congress passes it. Hope they don’t raise the rates. Etc, etc.

      1. As James Carville said, the only politician with a mandate is Jim McGreevey. Did Obama have a mandate? Saying that this plan only works if Cain has a mandate simply underscores the silliness of your position. Plus, even with a mandate there are at least 40 Dems to filibuster.

      2. It is only “not intellectually honest” because you didn’t bother to read the story. I stipulate that the plan will do exactly what Cain says it will do.

      3. I don’t disagree with your third point but there is no possible mechanism to keep the 9-9-9 from becoming 30-30-30.

      In the future try reading the story before posting.

      • jrhode2873

        and I read his plan. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing currently in place to dissuade Congress from raising taxes than public opinion and that will be no different under Cain’s plan. You act as if the shackles will finally be taken off Congress if we enact the 999 plan and they will at long last have an easier path to raising taxes, Congress will be under more scrutiny and have more accountability under 999 because of the fact that everybody will have skin in the game and everybody will be paying the same rates. Not so under the current system that you love so much where politicians have a much easier time manipulating public opinion about taxes.

        • streiff

          1. The next time you ascribe views to me that I don’t have you are gone. I want to make that very clear so even the densest bulb get it. Nowhere do I say I like the current tax structure. I say that in the story as a matter of fact.

          2. The long standing conservative position is that we don’t support new taxes. Cain’s bill depends on a new tax. If you like that, fine, but don’t deny what it does. Man up and just say you like taxes.

          3. The historic Conservative position on a national sales tax or a VAT is that it must only come to pass if the Income Tax Amendment is repealed. There are obvious reasons for that which I’m sure even you can figure out.

          4. I am not acting as if shackles will be taken off Congress. Again if you read the story you would have picked up on that. I am stating that giving Congress a new tax with no way to limit the tax rate is not now, nor has it ever been, a good idea.

          • jrhode2873

            So I get threatened to be removed because I attribute things to you that you claim you did not say but you get to insult Marines and call people things like “the densest bulb”? Love the selective outrage. Anyway, I stand by my comment that your analysis isnt very good because you do not deal with the whole plan you just focus on the new sales tax and also the difficulty in passing it. Sorry man, thats just poor analysis. How about you man up and admit that Cain’s plan eliminates many more streams of revenue than it creates? Not to mention the fact that you still have not made the case that a future environment under 999 will be more conducive to tax increases than the current environment.

          • papabear

            I wanted to handle this on a private level, but it seems that nobody is monitoring the RS mailbox. Your attitude and posts are not in accordance with RS rules. I looked through the rules. If you need me to prove the point, I can quote them for you. The RSer you are trashing did NOT violate the rules.

            I would also wager that your threat violates RS moderator guidelines.

            Your baiting of marines fits right in line with the attitude you are showing above.

            I suggest that you think long and hard about the damage you are doing to RS and the (R) party.

            BTW, I speak as a person who used to moderate on a similar size but non-political website.

          • powertothepeople

            loser.

            Learn the word, embrace it, deal with it. If this post is a reflection of you as a person, then you have heard that word directed at you many times in the past and will hear it even more in the future.

          • papabear

            nt needed

          • powertothepeople

            I put in as much intellect as your post deserved.

            By the way, are you still waiting with anticipation for the response to your “I am telling” email?

          • Bill S

            So pipe down.

          • papabear

            Perhaps my mistake was in thinking that the rules (http://www.redstate.com/posting-rules/) are meant to be interpreted literally.

            Specifically, I am referring to:
            2. Namecalling and personal attacks directed at other users is not allowed.

            7. Promotion of certain theories and ideas contrary to our site principles is not allowed. These ideas include, but are not limited to:
            Discrediting of opinions based on one?s service in the military, or lack thereof, commonly known as ?Chickenhawking.?

            If the rules are only enforced for some (or not at all), doesn’t that defeat the purpose of having the rules? Are the Mods supposed to be examples? Of course the call is ultimately up to EE or the people who he has entrusted to Mod. However, those choices ultimately reflect on all RSers. If people routinely argue by name calling, threatening, or denigrating others, they seem intellectually bankrupt. It is impossible to take them seriously.

          • Bill S

            If you don’t get a response, well, that may have meaning.

            But stop whining here.

          • paulplantowin

            Now that is a very strong point in any argument. (sarc)
            There is more emotion in that than thinking.
            How can we have a real discussion with that sort of intimidation so near the surface?

      • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

        Steiff, you are alarmed at the plan, but also think it cannot pass.

        Yet both concerns cannot be valid.

        So what if Congress doesnt pass it? We still have a conservative in the White House to pass SOME tax reform.

        If Congress doesnt pass it, likely because of the sales tax objections … we are stuck on doing an income tax only simplification. Cain is a problem-solver. He can retool the reform within that constraint. You’d be happier and the risk of 20% VAT is off the table.

        WINNING!

    • Tbone

      just very adept at your avocation?

      “Everybody has something to hate and to love about 999 which means its probably a good plan!”

      How about we just shoot one Republican and one Democrat Congressperson every week? Is that a good plan? LOL

      • http://applescorneroftheorchard.blogspot.com/ Pomme

        The effectiveness of this plan depends which Congress persons are chosen!

  • jqcjones

    is quite prevalent here. Keep up the good work, fellows/fellas. You’re on the wrong side of history…again. None of you have expected Herman to be where is today and you still comment as if his chances are no better today than they were when he first started. Again, keep up the good work. I find it refreshing to watch the establishment crumble when someone shakes the money tree. Frankly, Herman’s success has been very inspiring to me and I will continue to “hope” for the betterment of our Nation’s future. It is apparent none of you who’ve commented thus far… AND REDSTATE- prefers Herman as the nominee…just so you all can be “proven” right once again… But such discourse is what makes our Country shine above all the rest, I suppose. SEMPER FI!

    • pdawk

      Only weeks ago Herman Cain had zero shot at the nomination, he needed to quit the race and we all should line up behind Slick Rick. Now Herman has all the momentum, what he says resonates with the base and he is getting attacked on this site because he is not Rick Perry.

      • avgjo

        was whuppin’ everybody.

        Cain doesn’t have the record Perry does. His 999 plan is incomplete and Mr. Cain has clearly not thought out the implications of it. Couple that with his tendency to crawfish everytime he is held to account on something he said, and I wouldn’t get too giddy over the position he currently enjoys. He’ll likely blow it.

    • Lamplighter331

      I have no idea who I prefer as a nominee. I like Herman Cain, but am I convinced right now that he’s the best person for the job? Heck, no. 9-9-9 has some merits, but there are real concerns out there. It doesn’t mean people don’t support him. Would it have been better if someone had crushed Huntsman’s plan?

      That way, we’d all be lovey dovey and no one would be offended.

    • streiff

      You have to be an utter dunderhead to call anyone on the front page here part of the establishment.

      If you have something to say about the story, post away. I know it involves big numbers and Marines don’t do those all that well. But you can try.

      • pdawk

        Do you think that Marines are stupid? Just curious as to why you think those mathematically challenged heroes that get sent overseas to fight and die in wars deserve your insult?

        • streiff

          If you want to chickenhawk me, feel free.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          Get over it.

          Heck, they don’t fight all that well so they fall back on snark. :-)

  • spinoneone

    is great and might work. However, 9-9-9 is a dumb idea. A nine percent national sales tax is very regressive, as are ALL sales taxes. Ditto the “flat tax”, which sounds good but, since as income rises less of it is spent on “necessities” and more is “disposable,” it quickly becomes regressive, too. If we eliminate all other Federal taxes on income [all income, regardless of source not just wages] then a tax of nine percent on incomes below, say $100K would be equitable. Then, between $100K and $250K make the rate 12% and above $250 make it 16%. All income, from all sources, and index it for inflation on an annual basis. No deductions, oh, and did I mention, alimony is income? For corporations set the tax at 15% with no deductions beyond the usual costs of production as might be discussed in a college level accounting 101 course. No accelerated depreciation, no oil depletion, and so on and so forth.
    Capital gain? Income. Dividend? Income for the receiver, business expense for the corporation. Interest? Same as a dividend. No double Federal taxation. Excise taxes? Leave for later discussion [cigarettes, liquor, gasoline, etc.]

    • unclefred

      They are a feature. I make my money through my sweat, risk, and time. The state is not entitled to a larger percentage of my income because I happen to be a bit more successful that someone else. Also income taxes are annualized which is highly artificial. I have a very good year I pay a higher percentage that in a poor year. Income averaging is a poor attempt to mitigate this. With a sales tax I control my taxes without worrying about dates on a calendar. I like taxes that don’t penalize success.

  • kaheo

    Let’s start with Herman Cain. He never dreamed he would ever poll this well with 2 popular Governors in the race. He wanted to boost his portfolio and needed something catchy. It’s true he’s plan would be near impossible to pass but to say that once its passed, the Senate/House will increase it easily ignores history on tax increases in the US. Politicians and voters always talk about tax increases but its very hard to get even Democrats to vote for tax increases, so the 10-10-10 or 20-20-20 shouldn’t be what we’re worried about. I’d be more concerned about how it the 9-9-9 gets passed in the first place. It won’t and I can bet you we won’t hear about it again after Herman’s 15 minutes of top-tier status is over!

    • streiff

      outside the historical anomaly of the past 10 years, tax increases were pretty regular.

      Unless we get rid of the income tax, adding a national sales tax is just a dumb idea or should be for anyone who wants a smaller government

  • capitalistpig

    Does Cain realize we dont have a revenue problem,but a SPENDING problem?This is no different from raising taxes to lower the debt.Cut/Cap/and Balance would be better than 9-9-9,it raises 0% taxes,cuts spending,caps spending,and balances the budget.Hes made no mention on how he would balance the budget.,or cut and cap spending =\

    • streiff

      at least has logic underlying it in that it acknowledges that absent a Balanced Budget Amendment there is no way to limit spending.

      • kinggold

        that Cain (or any other candidate) wouldn’t sign a BBA if it were presented to him? Because that’s unfounded and fairly disingenuous.

        • kinggold

          That any of them wouldn’t endorse and shepherd a BBA through Congress and the red states?

        • streiff

          if you can’t or won’t take the time to read then don’t comment

    • jrhode2873

      And do you not realize that Cain is not trying to raise revenue? It is revenue neutral. He is trying to reform the tax code to create a tax environment that is conducive to job creation. BBA and 999 are not mutually exclusive. You can support both ideas.

      • streiff

        and he doesn’t get to vote on that anyway.
        http://www.hermancain.com/999plan

    • unclefred

      He has stated that in the first year that he could budget for the full year he would submit a budget that cut spending to revenue.

      • clintonformccain

        Has this guy given even a moment’s thought to the reality of being President of the United States? I doubt that even a crackpot like Rand Paul believes that you could balance the budget in one year. Nobody within a million miles of sane believes that.

        • clintonformccain

          My bad.

        • unclefred

          The last budget before the Dems took the house and Senate was about $150 billion short. Assuming that we use that as a baseline do you really believe we can’t find enough waste, absurdity, and over reach to get back to revenue?

          Cain is counting on one other thing, reducing regulation, ending Obama care, eliminating the over reach of the feds for the last four years will induce a major surge in the economy increasing revenues.

          I suspect that most of the posters and commenters here could balance the budget in a single year. It would not be pleasant, but it certainly can be done.

  • bonnman

    This is an interesting poll because they asked about a two way race if the pack thins out to just Cain and Romney.

    “If the race came down to a two way match between Cain and Romney, Cain leads 48-36. Cain would pick up Bachmann, Gingrich, Perry, and Santorum’s supporters”

    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/10/cain-leads-nationally.html

    • Aaron Gardner

      Because they enjoy trolling conservatives looking for something to talk about.

      • bonnman

        lead in but it is interesting to see Romney theoretically not picking up extra support from drop outs. I don’t think Cain has the staying power but I think Perry could pick up most of the support from drop outs if he stays steady

        • Aaron Gardner

          They’ll stop that when we get a week or two away from actually voting.

          • wonkish1

            nt

    • avagreen

      They are usually heavily skewed to the left and I take whatever they say with a grain of salt.
      I take whatever they say and then compare with other polls.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Policy_Polling

      Their favorite tactic is to say something like “all national polls agree,” but forget to say that they are citing their own polls they have in every state as evidence.

      • avagreen

        http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/10/poll-cain-stays-strong/

  • unclefred

    Every couple of cycles someone proposes a way to junk the tax code. We’ve had the flat tax. The fair tax. God help us a VAT. When this first started the propositions flickered and died buried as either an unworkable gimmick or as unworthy of serious consideration. But they keep turning up in the national discussion. Why?

    American tax payers consistently want a simpler fairer (more egalitarian) tax system. They want a system that is hard to fool around with and that reduces government selling favors.

    I submit that, assuming Republicans gain control of the Senate and the WH, 2013-2016 will be a unique opportunity to actually accomplish wholesale reform despite the entrenched forces that have successfully stopped it for over forty years.

    The TEA party and the internet, have changed the relationship of the government and the governed. The average tax payer has had his/her face rubbed in the corrupt tax policies practiced by our politicians. This has been especially onerous since 2006. This is the reason that 999 resonates with voters more strongly that past proposals.

    If you review past comments and post you’ll find many that state flatly that Cain has no chance to gain the nomination for all the conventional reasons. They may prove right, but they are not looking so certain at the moment. Similarly, the notion that total reform of the tax code is structurally impossible, fails to recognize that over the long history of this nation, when the electorate wants something strongly enough long enough, the government eventually does it. We live in unconventional times, conventional wisdom may well prove wrong.

    I concede that the notion that we can substitute 999 for the astonishingly complex tax code seems simplistic. Still sometimes simple can work. There is an old adage in engineering “as simple as possible and no simpler”.

    Perhaps the time for real reform has arrived we’ll see. As far as trashing Cain for his plan, in my opinion of all the guys up there, possibly other than Paul who I consider unelectable, we are more likely to get real tax code improvement from Cain than any of them. Clearly Santorum asking how many people thought the income tax would stay at 9% shows that he is not the guy to lead that fight.

    • streiff

      Tax reform is needed. What is not needed is a new federal tax.

      Are you seriously contending that saying his plan is unworkable is “trashing” him? He’s running on that idea, we aren’t allowed to look at the man behind the curtain?

      • unclefred

        Point taken streff, apologies all around.

        Would you concede that the basis for saying his plan in unworkable is the assumption that it is not possible to push real tax reform through the congress? If so then I submit that is as speculative as any other position.

        Most of the potential problems that have been called out with Cain’s plan fail to recognize the existing problems with the current tax code. Arguments about future increases in the three taxes are stated as if we don’t already have a tax code that is utterly out of control. Because Cain’s 999 plan is simple and easy to understand its potential problems are equally easy to see. Every potential problem, other than creating a federal sales tax exists in the current code, and is buried so that it is MUCH easier to slide in tax increases than with a simple visible plan like Cain’s.

        When one compares Cain’s plan to the reality of the existing tax code it looks pretty good, and eliminates congressional wiggle room on tax favoritism. Not a bad thing.

        I submit that for almost any definition that the group here would accept for fixing the tax code, that can not be done using the current tax code as a base. So we must toss it ALL out and start from scratch.

        There is a political tidal wave coming in 2012. The American people are now focused on the mess that is our federal government and are looking for substantial corrections.

        I could see both a BBA and a amendment requiring that tax increases require a 2/3rd majority (even a 60% majority) in both houses pass the legislature by 2015. Ratification would follow in record time. Even without such amendments, it is much different for a congress critter to trade tax breaks, than each of them having to vote to raise a flat income or sales tax. No cover there. Unlike the current tax code which is built to provide political cover for tax favors, with Cain’s plan accountability is easily established.

  • tommyc

    BY thesophist

    Well, by now, you all know that I?m in the tank for Cain. Which is not to say I?m in the tank against anyone else in the field just yet. Well, except maybe Ron Paul. But that?s another diary.

    So feel free to disregard this whole line of thinking as partisan pap designed to push my candidate of choice. Although, keep in mind that I want Cain to be your second choice, if he can?t be your first, as I?m sure your first is still infinitely better than Obama.

    In any event, there is a criticism of Cain that has been leveled throughout Redstate that I find? baffling. So this is my problem with the people who have a problem with Cain?s 999 plan.

    You can find quotes in comments throughout this site, but the essential criticism is something like this:

    I like the 999 Plan in theory. But there?s no way I?d support a national sales tax AND an income tax, because we just can?t trust politicians not to raise taxes on us. It might start as a 9-9-9 plan, but will end up as a 29-29-29 plan in short order.

    An entirely sensible position, to distrust politicians. At the same time, there are a few things really? off? about this particular line of criticism.

    If You Assume The Policy Will Be Corrupted?
    First of all, if the base assumption is that no matter how great an idea might be, DC politicians will find a way to corrupt it? why is the 999 plan singled out for special treatment? What makes anyone think that Romney?s 87-page PDF Economic Plan won?t also be instantly corrupted and changed? Or the FairTax that many people are gung-ho for, claiming that it is superior to the 999 plan. Superior how, if the assumption is that Congresscritters will instantly transform it into a basket of giveaways and boondoggles? Or even a Flat Tax?

    If the starting point of evaluating any policy proposal or plan is that Congress will get in there and mess it up, I honestly don?t see any reason to support any candidate on the basis of any issue. Because we?d have to assume that his/her great idea would just be transformed into a steaming pile of dung by Congress.

    Which Leads To? Vigilance of the People
    One particularly amazing critique of the 999 Plan theorized that we?d have President Cain coupled to a Democrat Congress, which would then result in the 999 plan becoming the 90-90-90 plan out of the gate. C?mon people; are we seriously contemplating that we?d all go to work trying to get the GOP nominee elected President, but skip out on all of the other races such that we?d end up with a GOP President and a Dem Congress?

    The larger point ? one which I?ve raised ? is that the only way that the 999 plan (or any other plan on any other issue) is not transmogrified into some atrocity is the vigilance of the electorate. There is simply no way to trust a politician ? no matter whom, no matter what ? to do the right thing time and again. Absolute the only way we as a nation can defend our rights, get the policies we want, and prevent corruption by politicians is to be vigilant against such things and to keep up the pressure on all of them to do the right thing.

    I?ve always thought that the Tea Party movement was a Great Awakening of sorts that signified that at least a very large part of the population had turned the corner on the vigilance issue. People who had never paid attention to politics suddenly became activists. Folks who had tuned out the Clinton years, the Bush years, even the Reagan and Carter years suddenly educated themselves on the issues, took to the streets, organized, and started to make their desires known.

    The critique of 999 plan on ?implementation? grounds simply assumes that these people ? you and me ? would work our tails off to win the election in 2012, and then go back to sleep. ?Whew, we got Cain/Perry/Romney/Whomever into the White House! Our job is done here!?

    If that?s true, then we?re all wasting our time. I like Cain; I trust Cain; I want President Cain. But I do NOT trust him enough to lay it all down after the election and go back to watching American Idol. No, sorry. I?ll trust him, but will stay on top of what he actually does once in office to make sure that he does what he promised, that his 999 plan doesn?t transmogrify into something bizarre, and so on and so forth. As Reagan once said, ?Trust, but verify.?

    Isn?t this the lesson of the past 40-50 years? That if we the people tune out government, bad things happen? And we find ourselves suddenly wondering, ?How the hell did we get here?? Corruption, like rust, starts off small and hard to notice. And like rust, we can?t wait until the damn thing has taken over half of the car before working on it.

    To paraphrase Milton Friedman, it isn?t so much that we need to elect the right people, but that we need to make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing. By extension, we need to make it politically painful for even the right people to do the wrong thing. And the only way to create that environment is through vigilance.

    No one told me this was going to be easy.

    Which Leads To? Why Cain Is Great
    Surprise! Well, not really, I?m sure.

    I?m likely not paying enough attention to all the other candidates, but I have to say, of all of the people in the race today, only Cain gives me the impression that he gets this crucial fact about the relationship between government and the governed: vigilance.

    Watch this video of Cain speaking to supporters in Orlando before the Florida Straw Poll. It?s a homemade video so the sound and camera work aren?t the best, but you can still hear him clearly. Notice how he talks about needing the people to apply the heat so that Congress will see the light. Now watch this homemade video from Smart Girl Summit 2011, where he lays out how exactly he?s going to get his 999 plan implemented. (Yes, the sound and picture are not great.) He makes it plain that he?s going to explain the plan to the American people, and that the American people will be the ones demanding that their elected representatives do the right thing.

    ?All I can do is tee it up, and make sure y?all understand it?. If people understand it, they will support it and demand it.?

    This is exactly the stance of a consumer-oriented business executive. When you?re selling burgers and pizza to average Americans, you can?t dictate to them what they should want. You have to listen to what consumers want, create that product or service, explain through advertising and marketing that what you?ve got is what they want, and then hope they demand your product.

    Even before he ran, for example at the 2009 Redstate Gathering, Herman Cain has been hammering home to those of us in the room our need to be Informed, be Involved, and be Inspired. Not just for a year or two, but forever.

    So many of the other candidates seem to me to be saying, ?Listen, elect me and I?ll make sure these problems go away. You can relax, once I?m in office.? It is the approach of the professional elite, like my accountant: Hire me, and you won?t have to worry about complicated IRS tax rules, because I?ll take care of it for you; because I know more than you do ? I?m an expert. And why not? Romney is an incredibly smart private equity investment operators. Bachmann was an accomplished tax lawyer. Paul is a medical doctor. Gingrich has been Speaker of the House, and has a Ph.D. in history. Their professional lives revolved around other elites, or in being the expert who takes care of a client.

    None of them ever had to organize, mobilize, inspire, and somehow get a large group of average Americans to believe in a vision, to carry out tasks, and to work together to succeed. Cain did just that in his business career, most of which was spent in the fast food industry. Think it?s hard to organize activists and voters? Imagine how hard it was to organize Burger King workers and to get them to move in the right direction, together, as a company.

    It?s one reason why I believe in the Cain candidacy: the guy isn?t running to give us anything; he?s running to make us demand things we want.

    Criticize The Plan On Its Own Merits
    Bottomline is that I would appreciate any criticism of any plan ? whether it?s Cain?s 999 plan, or Romney?s detailed plan, or any other plan that candidates will put forth ? on its own merits. We can?t have the central criticism of a plan be, ?Well, that plan wouldn?t allow me to go back to dreamland where I don?t have to worry what the politicians are up to.?

    For example, you could reasonably argue that the 999 plan?s national sales tax component would create a larger bureaucracy. You could argue that regressive taxation is immoral (the Lib/Prog position). You could maybe argue that corporations don?t deserve tax breaks. Whatever you want to argue is fine, but let?s have it be on the substance of the plan on its own merits, rather than on whether Congress will corrupt the hell out of it or not.

    That isn?t fair. And it betrays a lack of commitment to pay the price for liberty: vigilance, eternal vigilance.

    No matter who is in office.

    -TS

    • streiff

      Pardon me if I see Cain as just another bored rich guy who has decided he wants to be president.

      I’m not going to argue Cain’s sainthood with you, it doesn’t matter to me. What I’m not going to do is check my brain at the door. And equating running a fast food business, or any business, with governing anything is just wrong. The skill sets that make good CEO and good elected executives really aren’t all that similar.

      If you don’t believe legislation can be corrupted, fine. Good on you. Absolutely nothing in history indicates that government will not continue to try to increase its size and scope. Giving that government a new source of taxation is not conservative.

      • unclefred

        Hi streff,

        Take a look at this video where Cain talks about his relationship with Jack Kemp and see if you end up reconsidering that evaluation of Cain. A friend pointed me at it and after viewing it, I thought of your comment.

        http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/268914/herman-cains-kemp-connection-robert-costa

  • daddyman

    between a future Congress tinkering with 9-9-9 or any other element of our lives. we must remain active and alert to prevent such future action.

    even without a sales tax, there is absolutely nothing to prevent Congress from enacting new, higher tax rates except for the public fury which would be generated.

    what i do not understand is why so many people on this website are afraid to try something new?? it’s not like the tax system isn’t broke already…….

    flat tax will not pass in a single effort….there will have to be a bridge between our messed up tax system today and a fair tax in the future….i think 9-9-9 is as good a method to span this gap as any.

    • Aaron Gardner

      I don’t understand what is so hard for people to grasp this rather simple notion.

      If they raised taxes today to 80% then one avenue of taxation would be raised by 80%

      Institute this plan and they could raise the income by 60% and the sales tax by 40% and that would be a much larger increase. Limiting your income and devaluing your purchasing power at the same time.

      • jrhode2873

        What keeps Congress from doing this today? They can raise taxes to enormous levels right now with or without 999. They can also implement a national sales tax right now with or without 999. I don’t understand the notion that 999 creates an environment to all of a sudden motivate Congress to raise taxes as opposed to the current environment.

        • Aaron Gardner

          That’s the point nimrod.

          • jrhode2873

            Can’t engage in political debate without calling people names? You really add a lot to your argument. Congress can raise taxes right now TODAY if they wanted to and they have lots of ways to do it – income taxes, payroll taxes, capital gains taxes, the death tax, etc. Under 999, they would actually have less ways to raise taxes despite the new sales tax. And, they would be more accountable because of the mere fact that everybody will be paying the same rates.

          • http://conservativemountaineer.blogspot.com/ conservativemountaineer

            the Federal government would only have to raise all the 9-9-9 rates by 1 percentage point to 10-10-10 and raise gobs of $$ to spend and then say “we need 11-11-11″.

            Or, start adding deductions. Or saying “What about the poor and that nasty 9% income taxs and that 9% Sales tax?” Think EITC on steriods.

            Think long-term.

            Oh, nimrod is too kind. I prefer numbn*ts. :)

          • unclefred

            Which is of course the case IF THE VOTERS LET THEM.

            That is the point and the strength of a set of flat taxes. As long as they are flat the congress can not trade tax favors for vote. Should it be put into place we either need to amend the constitution so that all federal taxes may only be flat, or be active to prevent them from corrupting the tax.

            As for thinking long term the current tax code is an 80 year mess of twisted bought and paid for favors. As long as we accept variable tax rates, tax exclusions, loop hole, deduction and the rest the mess will only get worse. Good long term thinking is to toss this thing out and start over. If it takes the politicians as little as 20 years to make a mess we are well ahead of the game.

  • lineholder

    I’d be glad to see a contrast and comparison between the two. But until such time, I’m still behind Cain at this point, primarily because he’s more Conservative across the spectrum than Romney, Perry isn’t getting support at a national level yet and I want to see Conservatism win.

    • streiff

      This plan is a bad idea and it is profoundly un-conservative in its approach. Creating new taxes has never been what our side was about.

      • jrhode2873

        Do conservatives support eliminating taxes? 999 gets rid of payroll taxes, capital gains taxes, and the death tax. Do conservatives support lowering taxes? 999 lowers just about everybody’s income tax to a flat 9% rate.

        • conservativemusician

          streiff said:

          “You don?t have to be a genius to see how the 9-9-9 movie will end. It will be 10-10-10, 11-11-11, and so on because the plan makes no provision for capping increases.”

          This is the major downfall of the Cain plan as I see it. Cain does not have control over what future Congresses will do. There is no telling how high these taxes will go in future years because of the lack of spending discipline in Congress. It very well could go to 30-30-30. What’s to stop them from doing that? Oh yeah…it would take 2/3 of Congress to increase the rates, which I can see happening very easily once desperation sets in. It will be TARP all over again where they will say the sky is going to fall on us if we don’t increase the rates and then the screws will be put on the underlings to fall in line with leadership or else. Cain may mean well, but streiff is right in that this is not a conservative plan and we can do better.

          I’m very much looking forward to seeing the Perry plan. His will be the last one on the table and will probably be the centerpiece of discussion at the next debate. I anticipate that it will center on energy production and exploration, which I think is is a great starting point since energy prices have skyrocketed the last 3 years due to Obama’s rotten policies.

      • lineholder

        I understand what you are saying. Just be careful please. We don’t know for a fact that Perry will gain traction on a national level yet. If he doesn’t, and we gut the candidate we do have that is in a position to move us in a more Conservative direction than Romney, what do we really gain by it?

        Beyond that, if someone here has better ideas, then let’s get it out there. Who knows? Maybe one of the candidates will pick up on it and run with it.

      • http://conservativemountaineer.blogspot.com/ conservativemountaineer

        n/t

  • boonerdan

    At least the man has offered a plan. I keep hearing the same, tired ideas from a majority of the other candidates. Some of them have offered NOTHING but criticism.

    The fact that everyone is too “scared” to try something new because “the boogeyman” (aka, politicians) will corrupt any new idea clearly shows me that the Republic is lost. WE THE PEOPLE have allowed ourselves to become slaves to a tyrannical central government, but we keep trying to transfer blame to “the system.”

    We either get off of our collective a$$es and take back control of our country or we sell out our ancestors and our children and accept the shackles of slavery.

    • Aaron Gardner

      nt

    • Scope

      does that make them right simply because he has some plans. You can’t argue against Ron Paul in any rational way with many of his die hard supporters. The same thing is happening with a new and growing Cain cult of supporters. When someone argues in support of Cain that at least Cain has a plan, we are getting into Ron Paul cult territory.

      • avagreen

        I’ve said before ’til I’m blue in the face……..I used to support the guy when hardly anyone knew who he was. I was pushing for a ticket with a combo of West and Cain at the time……months and months ago while West was running for his present office.

        West said he wasn’t ready for a national office, yet, and I researched Cain further and discovered he’s NOT what he’s trying to portray himself as! He’s a RINO, not a conservative. Plus, he’s flip-flopped all over the place with his views.

        This new wave of new supporters have just DISCOVERED him, and have not researched the guy. It’s like an avalanche.

        Google: (Almost) Anybody but Cain to see his flip flops.
        Even West questions this guy:
        http://anybodybutcain.blogspot.com/2011/06/alan-keyes-herman-cains.html

        He is a train wreck.

  • Adjoran

    Like it or not, his plan – even if enacted as articulated – would increase deficits by $200-250 billion per year, at least in the early years.

    That means CERTAIN further downgrading of our credit rating, interest costs go up, swelling deficits even more. Of this there is no doubt. Calculators do not lie.

    Even if we survived that, any delay in the super-duper-economic boom Cain says his plan will inspire, any lessening of the heights of it, will just make matters worse.

    It doesn’t add up. Sorry.

    • unclefred

      The projected outcome of his plan depends on the economic assumptions used to evaluate it’s results. Cain claims that his economists analysis indicates it is revenue neutral. He has yet to publish his numbers, I hope he will do this.

      On what basis do you claim your deficits?

  • center77

    for no other reason than it hurts Perry. The Romney camp and establishment types have decided that destroying Cain will be easy, they just need him taking votes from Perry. Think about this, what would happen to either Perry’s or Cains numbers if one of them dropped out. Some one would be running double that Romney is. Everyone should know that Cain is not going to be president, he has become a tool to use to get Romney elected.

    The funny thing that happen last night is Perry’s camp did not fall for the establishments trap. They want Perry to come in all fired up, that way they can call him a loose cannon. They know if he stays on message, then only Cain can help Romney. Cain did not go after Romney very hard.

    Every time someone calls Romney out on something, he just changes the subject, then the media elitist say he handled it well. Did you see his face when they stumped him on the hypothetical. Romney came off looking very petty; but all the big media types keep saying he looked steady.

    Perry is going to talk about energy, that will create jobs.

    Perry will talk about taxes, and it will be real, not Cain’s pony show.

    Everyone thought huntsman’s joke was stupid, but hear me out.

    It has been reported recently that Cain was not really involved in the business aspect of making God fathers successful, he was more involved in the marketing. Now what does a market guy for a Pizza joint going to do, come up with some catchy saying that makes people want to buy Pizza. Thats why when Huntsman said it sounded like a price to a pizza, it made sense. Cain is drawing on his experience, but its to market himself. This guy has no business being any where near the Oval Office. Cain for president, can we get real now. Cains sole role in this race is to help Romney get the nomination, if you are a Cain fan, then you should think hard about what has happened. Romney is going to win unless people get around Perry, its as simple as that. Open your mind until at least when you see his economic plan, not just the Friday speech, the whole thing. Remember, we have three months.

  • izoneguy

    Let’s scrape the whole tax system and start over

    • holymoly

      How did the government fund itself before the income tax? Seriously I have no idea.

      • kinggold

        Needless to say, that’s a non-starter these days.

    • rightwingmom52

      but before you know it, it would be 10-10-10. If you follow some of the same logic being thrown out against 9-9-9, that is.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    In the first place it is probably not politically possible. In the second place, as we have discussed here many times, No introduction of sales taxes on the national level should be attempted until repeal of the income tax amendment.

    And even if the plan by de jure’ capped increases, there is no law that can bind a future congress.

  • runner12

    and he is not the only person pointing this out. Other prominent conservatives have made the same points. When you come up with a plan, you have to take into consideration what it could turn into when the government gets its mits on it. Not just now, but in the future.

    Many of the financial boondoggles and entitlements began with good “intentions” and look where we are today.

    Tax reform is needed, but this plan is not the way to go.

    Cain is near the top now and he will have to face serious questions like anyone else. Some concerns for me regarding him have emerged lately with his gaffes and regarding his electability outside conservative circles. I recently spoke with a friend who mentioned to me that several of her colleagues who are conservative are not talking about him at all. I wonder if outside the “politically involved” Cain plays well. It was something I honestly had not thought about before.

    • runner12

      Instead of outside conservative circles I meant outside of those of us who are currently engaged in the process at this time.

    • davesinsanantonio

      He is thinking as a CEO, and talking as a radio host.
      As a CEO he could just tell people what to do and they did it. As a president, he can tell Congress what to do and they can tell him to go pound sand. He doesn’t seem to yet realize that Congress has it own powers and is very jealous of them–even, or maybe especially, the conservatives there. The states also have their own powers and realms where the federal government has not yet been able to intrude. In addition, the bureaucrats have some powers, granted them by Congress, and lots of tenure-like protections from firing or downgrading or transferring.
      As a radio talk show host, he could say pretty much what he wanted with no repercussions, as long as he didn’t get into lawsuit range. If someone called in to question him he could just not take their call or cut them off in the middle of the discussion. He cannot do that as president, because his detractors will have access to the old and new media. And lots of it!
      So, he has said some ill-advised things, and he has told people to just read his plan as if that would convert them to true-believers. He has said that he doesn’t have all the information yet and we will just have to trust him that he will make the right decisions when he gets into the White House. Sorry, but been there, done than, and got Obamacare to prove it!

      • bzip

        I keep saying, the dem’s did this in 2008 and I guess the reb’s have to have their turn now – nominate a complete unknown with no experience cuz he can speak and inspire people.

        It does not matter if he has any prior experience lets just go for it. Oh well

  • JSobieski

    Is the argument against 999 too broad?

    Why eliminate deductions for a lower rate when we know the rates will just come back up? Reagan cut out deductions (see credit card interest) in exchange for lower rates. Rates were subsequently raised, and the eliminated deductions stayed eliminated. I still think the tradeoff made sense.

    Isn’t this argument an argument that cuts against any kind of real reform?

    I am not a fan of a high sales tax for reasons of compliance monitoring. However, in terms of the politics of raising rates, it is far harder to raise a tax rate that EVERYONE pays than it is to raise a rate limited to a particular bracket.

    To be against the 999 plan because of what future politicians will try to do is be against a lot of improvements to the SQ.

  • http://www.neoavatara.com/blog neoavatara

    Cain actually got too fancy with the 999 plan.

    A flat tax rate (pick whatever rate you want..) would have made more sense, and would not bring up the ugly sales tax.

    Even a plan with say, 3 different tax rates, would make more sense.

    I like Cain a lot, and if I had to vote today I probably would pull the lever for him…but 999 may end up being an albatross.

  • i8bugs

    transition to the Fair Tax. Quoting from his website:

    Phase 2 ? The Fair Tax
    Amidst a backdrop of the economic boom created by the Phase 1 Enhanced Plan, I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax.
    - The Fair Tax would ultimately replace individual and corporate income taxes.
    - It would make it possible to end the IRS as we know it.
    - The Fair Tax makes our exported goods and services the most competitively internationally than any other tax system.

  • cajungirl2012

    Why is Romney still attacking Perry about the Mormon flap?

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/12/romney-criticizes-perry-again-over-supporter%E2%80%99s-comments-regarding-mormonism/

    • avagreen

      Without a scintilla of proof or reason to do so.

      Weak candidate. Desperate as Obama. Willing to use smear techniques to win (hello? is this not a warning to anyone supporting this guy?)

  • http://conservativemountaineer.blogspot.com/ conservativemountaineer

    Oh, he says ‘only charitable contributions’. Then… mortgage deductions will be included.. then, State and local taxes.. then Medical.. then..

    Oh.. and then.. special tax credits against both the Sales Tax and the Income Tax for the ?poor?. Think EITC on steriods.

    Cain will *never* get the 9-9-9 plan impemented. If Cain wins the nomination, I can see Obama saying ?Herman Cain wants to raise EVERYONE?S taxes. by having a National Sales Tax? I don?t? I only want to raise taxes on the millionaires and billionaires. Plus, he wants to LOWER taxes on those greedy Corporations AND the millionaires and billionaires!!!!!? /Obama Preacher-style Voice

    Well, you get the picture. I hope.

    This 9-9-9 Plan is a non-starter for me.

    Full Disclosure ? Yes, I am a CPA. However, I do not prepare income tax returns except mine. I?m a CFO. I have no dog in the simplify income taxes debate. I?m also not in favor of the flat tax for the same reasons as the 9% income tax proposal.

    • unclefred

      Once you extrapolate from his publish plan you are arguing about YOUR plan, not Cain’s. You get the picture I hope.

      If we are going to argue about Cain’s plan we should stick to Cain’s plain including its transition to the Fair Tax.

  • jaykali

    We all know it. Hermain Cain is officially the Mike Huckabee of this race. I think he’ll finish 2nd. You need organization and money neither of which Cain has. He is raising his national profile and doing a great job. He will definitely get some kind of position with Mitt, be it the VP nod or some cabinet position.

    The rest of the candidates are just a waste of time. I am tired of hearing Rick Santorum take shots at everybody. None of these people are in this race. Perry is barely hanging on as #3 and then it’s a laugher after that.

    I don’t understand why we need all of these faux candidates. Maybe they make the real upper tier better? I suppose maybe. I like Cain alot, I wish he had been able to like really make a run for this. I think he will sell some books and net out a win. But like Huckabee, winning for Cain is getting a high position in Mitt’s cabinet or a TV show or something.

    So that leaves us with Mitt. At least he’s been impressive. I mean we all have qualms with how exactly conservative this guy is but if I may have 2 quick ‘pluses’ they would be a) He is a legit debater – he has really raise his game which is very necessary to win this deal. b) he is independent friendly, also very important in this race.

    I know we want our little champion Cain or Paul or whoever to rise to the top but it’s not going to happen. And maybe you’ll be frustrated but NOTHING will be as bad if we have to wake up to a freaking re-election of the worst president ever. That will get us all to the ballot box in the end.

    • center77

      I have decided that Romney and the establishment have rigged this election from the get go, they have allowed Romney lie his way through every attack against him, even though they have talked about it for the last three years. I am beginning to think we can never fix this country until we send the media and the establishment a message. Romney and Obama are the same thing anyways. I’ve read three articles points to things Romney wants to do that match Obama.

      If Romney win, it will be because of one thing, and one thing only. Because conservative bought into the media elitist idea that debating matters, and record does not. Since when is the how we choose our candidates. That’s why they chose Obama, and that’s why we are where we are.

      So I will SAY this ONE MORE TIME TODAY, people we have a choice, but we have to make it one choice on election day. If we beat Romney, then we send the establishment a message. They seem to need another message.

      • jaykali

        You might be able to argue the nuances of the most conservative Democrat is similar to the most liberal Republican. I haven’t really ever compared voting records to see how close they can get. It’s just a ridiculous claim to say a Republican president would have the same kind of agenda as a liberal Democratic president.

        • californiagold

          When I judge a candidate, I look at their record first and campaign slogans a distant second. And if I were to look at the record of Governor Mitt Romney and had not already known he was a registered republican, I would have guessed he was a moderate/liberal democrat. Yes, his record is that bad.

          On issue after issue Governor Romney displayed a political philosophy to be in line with typical progressive thought. Even now he defends the indefensible government mandated Romneycare health bill.

          • jaykali

            You can make that argument, you can’t say that Obama and Romney are ‘the same’ nobody in the world actually believes that, it is WAY overstating someone’s case when they say they are the same.

            So on Romney we have to look at his time at Massachusetts and say well did he have to govern more as a moderate bc he was in Massachusetts? He certainly says the right things, but how can we know if he will follow through bc his record was as governor for a liberal state.

            You have similar issues with some other candidates. Bachmann and Santorum and Cain all have conservative positions but no real executive governmental experience that could prove that they govern that way.

            I would much rather have a governor with a untarnished conservative record. We have to believe that Romney is going to be more conservative as a national politician than he was as a governor of a liberal state which is a judgment call.

            Alot of people f-ed up when they thought liberal Barrack Obama would be more moderate as a president which was wrong.

            For me I am not sure whether I would vote for Romney in the primary but if he’s the guy in the end I will gladly vote for him over Obama.

            I just don’t know that any of the other candidates present any sort of real challenge. Cain is a better candidate than Perry but without the money and organization. If you could combine those 2 you’d be in better shape. The rest of the field is so bad I could see Gingrich starting to surge again.

            Maybe if Cain wins Iowa he can pick off organizations/staffers from other campaigns and make a run, I imagine that is his plan. His 9-9-9 plan is catchy, albeit unrealistic. I like that he’s a business guy.

            Anywho to summarize, I am not going to cry a river if Romney gets the nomination bc I think he might be the best candidate to beat Obama and I think he will have a pro-growth business-friendly agenda. I don’t think he’s going to bring up cap and trade and card check and other BS that Obama has been trying to ram down our throats.

            And that goes back to my central point, these candidates are NOT the same, and it’s ridiculous to say they would be. Any republican candidate that is election will have a pro-growth agenda including tax reform, lower taxes, less regulation, domestic energy. It will not look ANYTHING like the current big spending/regulation agenda we have now.

  • center77

    are saying this race is pretty much over because Romney is running away with this. They know because conservatives are splintered, Romney did not look good to me, because everything he says is a lie and a distortion.

    The establishment knows they are winning, even though Romney holds only a quarter of the votes. As long as there are 7 people splitting the rest, Romney Wins

    • SoFiMil

      It’s the 2nd week of October and it’s over?! Until mid December at the earliest, there’s no credibility in such an emphatic assertion. Plus, Romney’s #s are flat. I’d still scoff if the “experts” said Cain’s a “shoe-in,” but at least there would be a theoretical basis for that statement. The Fox News guys can get back to in 2 months.

    • avagreen

      At one time, Howard Dean was the leading candidate for President in 2004.
      http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Howard_Dean:_U.S._presidential_election%2C_2004

      Al Gore was the favorite to win in 2000.

      Just sayin’

  • cajungirl2012

    Check out the impressive and ever-expaning archive of Mitt’s flip-flops on Leftist websites. All documented and lots of video!

    No thanks, Mittens (D-Pick Your State)

    • cajungirl2012

      Mittens (D-UT, NH, MA, MO)

      • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

        MO? Show me. ;-)

        I think you meant MI, aka Michigan, as Mitt’s has car business roots from his Dad.

        Definitely ‘works’ to be from multiple states.

        I think he’s adopting NV and NJ too.

  • mort

    like past candidates, by proposing things that he has no authority to change. Any change in the tax structure will have to be initiated in Congress. Understand he does have the veto and must sign legislation, but it galls me when candidates for president say they are going to do things that are beyond their constitutional duties. And why? Just to get elected. Like candidates that propose changes to our educational system even though the Constitution does not give that authority to the president (or Congress). Just to hoodwink the populace into voting for them.

  • tommyfrisco

    and realize it would be stupid to nominate someone for POTUS with no political experience. It is stupid to think that our current politicians would give up the power they have with the current taxation system. It is stupid to think that senior citizens on Social Security want a 9% national sales tax.

    If I had my way, the federal government would eliminate corporate taxes entirely since those costs are passed on to the consumer. I would also eliminate corporate political donations. What better way to eliminate crony capitalism? However, I am stupid for wasting my time thinking that our current politicians would give up their most lucrative retirement program.

    It is stupid to not realize that the county club GOP elites are demanding that we nominate Romney. It is stupid to think that there is any other candidate that is better as our nominee for POTUS than Governor Perry. Everyone needs to wake up to the realities.

    • clintonformccain

      “it would be stupid to nominate someone for POTUS with no political experience”

      While he is a more experienced and charismatic guy, nominating Herman Cain as the Republican standard-bearer against Obama would be like nominating Sharon Angle to go up against Dinghy Harry.

      • tommyfrisco

        to political experience. Has Obama lowered the bar that much in what we expect for POTUS? For a very good reason, most of our Presidents have been former Governors. They had experience governing in a political environment.

        Cain doesn’t have any political experience because he hasn’t been able to ge elected.

    • mort

      It will be very hard to get the current senators and representatives to accept such a paradigm shift. Therefore it will have to be our job to get it done at the ballot box. Yes, I know the new will be corrupted as well, but we have to try.
      Now wait! Herman Cain. He is not part of the establishment is he?
      Agree 100% on eliminate corporate taxes and I have told Toomey such.

  • mort

    the super committee will have devised a plan to cut spending and balance the budget with a combination of tax cuts, changes, eliminations, and increases.
    We will not need any presidential candidates “plan” after that. At the end of July Congress voted to save the country from financial disaster with a plan that will guarantee prosperity forever. Isn’t that how you all take it?

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      The super committee will magically solve the massive deficit, cure our horrid tax code, AND have time for a nice Turkey dinner. I hope this is irony!

      … meanwhile back in reality …

      “The congressional supercommittee, tasked with reducing trillions of dollars from the nation?s record debt, can?t agree on how to count. ”

      http://thehill.com/homenews/house/186917-super-panel-is-not-yet-at-square-one

      Gingrich had it right. The super committee is going to issue a plan to cut off our legs, and the Congress is to vote on that or get a shot in the head.

      Let ‘er rip.

      • mort

        with a splash of hope -and “you never know” mixed in.

  • cajungirl2012

    it begins:

    Cain: I didn?t realize in 2005 that the housing bubble existed

    http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/12/cain-i-didnt-realize-in-2005-that-the-housing-bubble-existed/

  • omegamale

    I think the main “problem” with Cain’s plan is just that Cain is taking votes from Rick Perry, that’s why there’s all the hyperventilating. Perry’s campaign is going down in flames and his crew is getting desperate. It’s obvious the Perrybots just want to take down Cain by any means necessary, even if it means being intellectually dishonest regarding conservative principles.

    The main argument against this plan is “what if liberals screw it up?” Isn’t that always in the cards? I’m certainly not going to hold back conservative reforms like this because I’m a afraid a liberal down the road might screw up a positive change for this country. That’s like being against a flat income tax because liberals might some day raise it. So instead, we’re just going to sit on our hands with the current messed up tax code?

    The biggest problems with the current tax code is it’s overly complex, it’s too top heavy, and there’s too many free riders. This plan addresses all of these concerns.

    I want to see Democrats try and raise a national sales tax. Politically, it would be the best thing on Earth for the GOP because it would hit everyone. No more of this picking and choosing winners and losers, it’s a tax increase that would be immediate, transparent, and universal. You see how hard it is for states to try and pass tax laws that collect on internet sales. It’s a loser even in the Bluest of states with many residents that don’t even purchase on the internet.

    I know for me personally, this would greatly lower my tax burden, in addition, it would make compliance far easier. The people who are fearing a tax increase are the freeloaders that currently pay nothing in federal taxes.

    • center77

      No, the problem with Cain is, he allows Mitt Romney to win. Cain cannot win, Fox will destroy him after his use is done. They only need him to take votes from Perry, because the establishment knows that Cain will be easy to get rid of, he will just drop out and say he does not have money.

      • unclefred

        But he is solely responsible for his falling poll numbers. Perry has made a huge miss judgement about how his staunch support of instate tuition for illegals is playing nationally. HUGE miss judgement. Cain is not taking support from Perry, voters are abandoning him, it’s really hard to tell but I suspect Newt is getting some of them too. Would I prefer Perry to Romney, yup in half a heartbeat. But unless he smells the coffee and walks back on this issue he has no shot at the nomination. Maybe you should focus on getting your guy to wake up on the singular issue that is cratering his chances, instead of going after another conservative who, as far as I can tell, sincerely believes he can help the nation.

        As for Cain being unable to win. Other than Bachmann who has no chance of getting the nomination, any of the people on that stage can beat Obama. As for Cain not having money, I suspect that he’s raised as much in the last 72 hours as he did in the previous 72 days.

        • californiagold

          While Cain is far more preferable than Romney, Cain is more of a moderate than a true fiscal conservative. Few if any Tea Party conservatives that I know supported TARP. Cain did.

  • txpat

    This gives us insight into Cain’s abilities on economic issues, and how he would
    Go about trying to solve them.
    The more information I gleam about Cain the more concerns I have.

  • Kudzu

    Dean Clancy who posted this very same argument against 999 on Freedomworks.com? http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/dean-clancy/herman-cains-999-plan-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugl

    I say that because its odd to see two posts on two prominent conservative websites on the same day on the same subject. Either that or someone’s either plagiarized or we have a ConservoList going on and either scares me.

    I agree with the arguments against the 999 plan in that it leaves open the “possibilities” of a VAT and excessive taxes… provided Congress imposes them. Will the current or even the near future political climate allow such oppressive taxes to be imposed? Doubtful.

  • center77

    And as hard as it is to believe, it?s very likely the Republican presidential nomination will go to a French-speaking Mormon vulture capitalist named Willard, who used to support abortion rights, gay rights, gun control, ?amnesty? for undocumented immigrants, and combating climate change, and who distanced himself from Reagan, attended Planned Parenthood fundraisers, and helped create the blueprint for the Affordable Care Act.

    • tommyfrisco

      to the point of being funny if you have a sense of humor. Are we really going to allow the MSM and the GOP elites to give us another John McCain (Romney) or are we going to do what we did in Nov 2010 and show them who is really in control?

  • romeg

    (sounds an awful lot like Nein, Nein, Nein which is German for “No, No, No”) then we need a way to 1) get it enacted into law while (2) stripping Congress of the power to tinker with it and (3) revoking their current taxing authority.

    This would require at least one and may require two Constitutional amendments: A repealer for the 16th Amendment and this proposal in the form of an amendment as its replacement. There are at least a half-dozen lawyers that are front page contributors to this site. I propose a contest amongst them to come up with a proposed amendment or pair of amendments that accomplish this objective.

    Any takers?

  • sadams

    but generally meaningless. It’s the Republican equivalent of promising a chicken in every pot. It won’t cost you any votes, and might gain you some. The only way to attack these plans politically is either to say the candidate is lying (bad form in a primary) or the proposal is really a stealth tax increase and therefore anathema to all true good thinking Republicans, which is the approach Streiff is taking here. I’m not a Cain supporter, but I don’t think people who would be inclined to vote for him are going to be persuaded that he secretly favors a big tax increase. Streiff recognizes this problem and attempts to get around it by saying Cain is naive and inexperienced politically, and this plan illustrates that. I’m not sure Streiff has picked the best avenue to make that point, though. What about foreign policy? I’m not sure Cain can spell it…

    • clintonformccain

      Cain said that, if he were President, he would meet with his advisors and decide how to respond.

      • sadams

        in the days and weeks to come. We’ll see how he does. Voters generally don’t look for sophistication in that area, so he may not be too vulnerable there. I do think if he is running close to the front as we approach the end of the year we will start seeing attack ads, which will be a real test. It sounds like he may not have the staff to mount a quick response.

      • sadams

        pretty soon. We’ll see how he does. If he stays near the top in polls, the attack ads will start coming at him. Does he have the staff to quickly and effectively respond?

      • cajungirl2012

        won’t suffice for long. He uses it in every situation. (Along with “I’m not perfect.”) It translates “I’m not interested in the topic” or “I know zero about the topic.”

        He lost me when he said “Ubekistan” was an insignificant little country. (Followed by the stock advisors answer.)

  • traversecityconservative

    This website is becoming nausiating with it’s daily pro-Perry and anti-Herman Cain rhetoric. I find a lot of you out of touch with “real” people who I come in contact with daily – that includes Conservatives, Rinos, Independents and Liberals. Have fun pushing Perry. That’s not going anywhere. I might check in again the first of the year but I don’t expect things to be much different.

    • powertothepeople

      what in God’s green earth would we do without your incessant whining? Without you here, the site would collapse, fall into disarray, our very hearts would be torn asunder. Do not abandon us, we could not bare it.

      The horror, the sheer horror.

    • runner12

      A. Dislike Romney

      B. Do not know who Cain is. It is unfortunate, but true. He will have to overcome his lack of name-recognition outside of political junkies like us. I think he can, but he has not so far.

    • Bill S
      • powertothepeople

        a desperate need for attention.

  • tommyfrisco

    “anyone but Obama.” That should be our mantra AFTER our GOP nominee has been chosen. Right now, we should be determining who is the most experienced, conservative candidate.

    Can anyone say Cain has been properly vetted? There’s still a lot we don’t know about him…things that may come up after the nomination.

  • tea4me

    What?s that? An extra $36K on a $400K home?

    Sure doesn?t work well with me…

    • SoFiMil

      $ : )

    • unclefred

      It’s pretty simple. The tax is only paid once on any given home. So the prices of existing homes and new construction would shift relative to each other. Your $400K brand new home would shift down some what and existing homes would shift up some what.

      For comparable structures new construction generally is more expensive than existing homes. The market would adjust.

      • davesinsanantonio

        will just roll that extra 9% into their asking price? Or maybe just 6% or 7% to make their older home competitive with the new one?
        Even if they go with the full 9%, there are advantages in buying an older home such as the landscaping is in, the initial problems have been corrected, you get to see who the neighbors are and how the schools are before you buy, etc. But, saying that the tax is only paid once is not really one of the advantages, but it can be disguised to look like one.

        • unclefred

          Assume that we can agree that if the sales tax were applied to a preexisting home that would be a disadvantage. If so then in that context it is advantageous, or perhaps not disadvantageous, that it does not. Further consider that if you buy a new construction you benefit from the lack of a sales tax when you sell it. If you are able to get 5% more, that increase ends up in your pocket and defrays a some of the tax.

          Stepping away from the sales tax a moment I’d like to raise another point with regard to home purchases. Right now, I like most Americans, take advantage of the home mortgage deduction. It is a club over my head as periodically the congress either threatens or does tamper with it. Under the 999 plan that deduction is gone along with that particular lever the congress has on my tax liability. Sine net net I am better off with the 9% income tax and the 9% sales tax that the current tax code I am better off, and also freer.

    • Jim Tomasik

      Don’t forget to add in FICA.

  • kowalski

    .

    • JSobieski

      I just hope they aren’t too far ahead.

    • snowshooze

      Weren’t you supposed to add your own followup statement?
      You should be honored…

  • GregInFla

    Correct? No more OASD (FICA) and medicare payroll tax, which is 7+% twice (employee and employer). So it gets rid of one tax avenue of 14% of all income.

    I agree that seniors paying sales taxes would be difficult, but all that IRA money would be taxed at a much lower rate. And we could get rid of all taxes on social security income.

    And right now, Cain’s website is having capacity issues. I pray it’s for donations.

    • unclefred

      Yes no more FICA and medicare. Also no more cap gains.

    • avagreen

      The average SS payment is a little over $1,000 which must buy groceries, utilities, medical bills, rent, pharmaceuticals, etc.

      With an added 9% tax on every consumption, how will that work? Many are already eating dog food at times as horrible as that sounds..
      If one is handy, the use the pitiful meal that meals on wheels last all three meals.

      Yep! This 9% tax will kill them.

      But…..who cares, right? After all, they are expendable and are just using up resources (that they’ve paid into for the past 50 to 70 years). Meh.

      Bitter? Yeah. I work with them in my profession as social worker.

      *rant off*

      • http://www.redstate.com/thesophist TheSophist

        take the additional money you would be taking home (16% if you’re in the 25% bracket; 24% if you’re in the 33% bracket) and putting some of that money into charities to support the elderly.

        It is fundamentally un-American to look to the government for every little thing, including supporting the least fortunate amongst us.

      • blcartwright

        I said somewhere else in this comment section that Pennsylvania doesn’t tax groceries, food or medicine. I have a problem with the Fair Tax because of the end of the year refund. Too complicated – I don’t want to send in any paperwork justifying my spending, just do it at the cash register.

        Not taxing these necessities at the front end will effectively slash the sales tax rate for the poor & elderly, for whom the bulk of their purchases are these exempted items.

        • GregInFla

          And I know Illinois sales tax is less on food, but when you’re at 10% in Chi-town, only paying 6 percent on food ain’t no bargain.Having different tax rates on food and non-food is a pain to the small shop owner (I grew up in an old-fashioned meat market and grocery.) If you don’t have fancy computer registers, you just have to guess based on percentages of total sales. I understand the 999 sales tax only applies to sales of new goods, so it would NOT apply to used merchandise, such as cars, appliances, and the like. That would help the little guy, while those rich fat cats,as they call them, pay the tax on the new cars, boats, etc.

  • watchandlearn

    Seriously…

    Consider what you’re saying. Herman is proposing destroying all other taxes out there and only having three streams of revenue. Other candidates keep the same tax code…… What keeps Democrats from just increasing taxes that already exist?

    Secondly, it’s politically hard to raise a flat sales tax. The Democrats can’t argue, “Well, we’ll only tax the rich and not the poor.” No, in order to raise the tax they’ll have to raise it on everyone meaning it’s not politically viable to raise the tax rate.

    It’s a step in the right direction. Even Art Laffer thinks so.

  • SoFiMil

    Cain has benefited almost exclusively at the expense of Perry. If, and I believe when it becomes a 2-person race between Perry and Romney, those votes are going all Perry’s way despite (if) any endorsement by Cain to the contrary. Cain supporters, unlike SWMNBN, are independent and not loyal to Cain the man.

    • watchandlearn

      Honestly, Perry is not better than Cain.

      You can criticize Cain’s plan, but at least he has one. Secondly, Cain debates better than Perry. Perry would be demolished by Obama. If Perry was this hurt by poor debate performances in a friendly GOP primary… Imagine what it would be like in the general election.

      Cain is also smarter than Perry. Cain has a degree in Mathematics, a masters in Computer Science and worked as a literal rocket scientist for the Navy. Perry had a 2.5 GPA and got a degree in Animal Science.

      I like Perry, but Cain is all around better.

      • Jim Tomasik

        .

      • SoFiMil

        Or even touting Perry (who I support), but rather pointing out that Romney’s the one in the most precarious position. Not arguing with you, but interested in your thoughts **if** it was a 2-person race between Perry and Romney, what % of Cain votes will go to each man?

        And regardless of whether Cain is the most qualified and has the best plan, who of the Big 3 will drop out first. My opinion, rightly or wrongly, Cain’s going to have a lot coming at him both from the MSM and from sincere conservatives who know nothing about Cain and are starting to ask distinguishing policy questions.

        • SoFiMil

          .

        • bzip

          “Cain is the most qualified”

          Who has been governing for the last 10 years keeping a balanced budget and dealing within the frame work of a goverment…

          It sure isn’t Cain. There is only one true highly qualified candidate with over 10 years of experience in governing.

          If you call grades and inspiring speeches the recommend qualities of a President is it any wonder we have the disastrous elected official we have now? Great inspiring speeches and good grades got us Obama.

          • GregInFla

            And that is quite suspicious. We have not even heard from any classmates of his. I just wanted to point this out.

      • davesinsanantonio

        Having as plan is not the same as having a good plan.
        Perry has a plan and should be publishing it soon.
        Debates aren’t everything. Perry does well working a crowd, or in one-on-one interview, or in stump speeches.
        But, even in a Perry / Obummer debate the outcome is not pre-ordained. Obummer does not do well off the TOTUS. Perry will have a lot more experience debating by then. And, such a debate is not even a given if Obummer refuses, or Perry will not accept unacceptable conditions put on such a debate.
        The previous GOP debates have hardly been “friendly” to Perry.
        Degrees and GPAs are not the only measure of “smarts”.
        Given the lack of actual governing experience, Cain is not necessarily “all around better”. You have no way of really knowing that, only guessing or hoping.

      • avagreen

        who’s turned his state around to become the 2nd lowest per capita debt burden, booming economy, with some of the highest rated high schools in the U.S., has the among the lowest tax rates in the U.S., and one of the most business friendly environs in the nation, etc.

        There are different types of learning: Visual, Kinetic, Auditory. Not everyone is suited for the Visual learning style that much of our past school systems were based upon. Having a 2.5 GPA means nothing.

        You do realize that of the famous people also failed school? Einstein, for example. Disney, Edison, and Bell were all dyslexic, and misunderstood in their youth. Doesn’t mean a (deleted) thing.

        Your next point?

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        nt

    • snowshooze

      Watch the latest video at video.foxnews.com

      Should be the Greta-Newt Post-Game interview…

      • snowshooze

        http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/index.html#/v/1213474017001/post-nh-debate-newt-gingrich/?playlist_id=86925

      • SoFiMil

        I’m going to a library tomorrow, though. Thanks for the link. I always appreciate your insights.

    • SoFiMil

      http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44881446/ns/today-today_news/t/nbcwsj-poll-cain-now-leads-gop-pack/

      Hoping resident scholar and gentleman mbecker will give us his thoughts in a diary today.

      • SoFiMil

        They share a mutual voting block.

        • bzip

          Don’t you remember Cain won’t support Perry or even be his VP. On top os which Cain is Romney’s lap dog.

          There is only one very qualified conservative candidate running but he has a big problem handling himself in debates. There is only one candidate that has no experience and is not qualified yet he can inspire and speak well. Guess where the conservatives are running to.

          • circlegranch

            it would turn this race on its head. The tea party folks, which are shell shocked and sitting on their hands, timid about endorsing any candidate would rise up like a roaring lion. It is rather amazing to hear both Bachmann and Cain marginally sweet talk Romney and bash Perry. If either of them would assign their staff’s to get busy and research Romney’s past they would run away from him. It’s especially troubling for Bachmann, the Chair of the Tea Party Caucus in the House to be so bashful about calling out Romney. She disagrees with Perry on Gardasil but she should take a look at all the ways her policies completely collide with Romney’s true self. He ran to the left of Ted Kennedy when running for governor! Either she isn’t truly a principled tea party candidate or she’s sold out to the Romney campaign and is under pressure from Boehner to behave if she wants a comfortable home back in the House when she becomes known as ‘former presidential candidate, Michelle Bachmann. Either way, she too, like Perry, has to redeem herself pretty quick. (The GOP is closing the window of opportunity by moving up caucuses and primaries. ) She really doesn’t seem to be seriously running for president anymore. She’s much more convincing as a candidate for Romney’s Veep to give him some cred with the tea party.

          • bzip

            This is in part why I call Bachmann and Cain lap dog’s for Romney because neither Bachmann nor Cain will truly go after Romney in a big hard way.

          • SoFiMil

            If he thinks he does better head-to-head vs. Perry, it’s in Cain’s interest to take out Romney.

            *Left out of this equation is Newt’s steady rise. If only he didn’t have so much baggage, (oh, and that AGW thing).

      • avagreen

        http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-1452.html

  • http://www.AmericanThinker.com Hammer2008

    Okay, I do concur with the tendency of a runamok Congress to ratchet up the 9-9-9 to a 10-10-10, VAT or whatever without controls in place. Perhaps if Americans were to elect Herman Cain as President, there’s an off chance that he would veto anything falling short of his goals (and the then majority of Americans)?

    Unless folks have read up on the FairTax (www.FairTax.org — just buy the books for cheap already), then they are entirely missing the point of the Sales Tax equation on the price of goods and services in terms of the “hidden embedded taxes” already on them — which would be eliminated.

    It’s really not that hard people (well, maybe for Michelle Bachman’s refusal to read the devils in the details). Sheesh!

    “The FairTax proposes to eliminate all federal taxes ? income, withholding, capital gains, corporate, inheritance, Social Security and Medicare ? and replace them with a 23% sales tax, also known as consumption tax, paid only once, at the final point of personal consumption, paid only on new goods and services. Used goods, and busines to business trans-actions, will not be taxed.

    Most wage-earning, tax-paying American citizens are not aware of ?embedded taxes,? that are hidden, and do not appear on the receipt.

    Though unseen, the consumer pays them.

    A loaf of bread that sells for $2.69 includes the taxes on the wheat seed the farmer buys, the seeder he uses to plant those seeds, the truck that transports the wheat to the mill, the mill operator, the truck that moves the flour to the baker, the manufacturer of the bread wrapper, and finally, the store that sells the manufactured loaf. Who pays the taxes on those seven operations? You guessed it ? or did you?

    The worst of those embedded taxes is the payroll deduction tax.

    That is money that?s withheld from wage-earners, even those who live below the poverty line. By eliminating those embedded taxes, wage-earners will take home their entire paycheck ? 100% ? and set their own tax rate, based on how much or how little they buy.

    When The FairTax becomes the law of the land, there will come an economic upturn of great proportions. Outsourced companies will return to our shores…” Jobs will be created!

    (from: http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9483 )

  • tommyfrisco

    the House couldn’t even get enough votes to overturn the light bulb act. Do you really expect them to be able to eliminate our current tax code in its entirety and take a chance on this 9,9,9 plan?

    Get real. This conversation is nothing but a distraction from the serious issues. You are all doing what the MSM and the GOP leaders want you to be doing.

  • tommyfrisco

    this 9,9,9 plan IS interesting, but we would have to expect Congess to give up much of their power by eliminating the existing tax code.

    I plead with all of you conservatives to stop being led by the MSM, the GOP elites, and the debate moderators. We are discussing the issues they want us to discuss. If we allow them to direct us this way, we will find ourselves in the next few months wondering how we ended up with another John McCain again. We will have to share in the blame because we didn’t stay focused. We must be looking at who is the most experienced and conservative candidate in the race. Ignore what the “experts” are saying. They still don’t know what happened in 2010.

    Yes, I am a Perry supporter although I don’t agree with everything he said or did while Governor of Texas, but I do consider most of the attacks against him so far to be relatively minor compared to what we could expect from some of the other candidates.

    I should add that Cain is not a politician only because he has not been able to win any of the races that he has entered. Perry has never lost a political race and has enough of a war chest to keep him going until almost everyone has dropped out.

    • californiagold

      I have nothing against Herman Cain, and would support him if he were the nominee. But he’s not going to be the nominee. Cain has no experience running a government body, and has yet to prove himself as a political leader. Nor will the establishment take the risk on Cain in the general against Obama – they want Romney.

      What I see happening is the neoconservative establishment that supports Romney won’t go too hard on Cain until Perry has been eliminated from the race. Even if it means Romney losing Iowa to Cain. From Romney’s point of view, it’s far more important to keep Perry in the third position through Iowa and South Carolina. If Perry comes in third in both those states behind Cain and Romney, Perry will probably drop out of the race. At that point, the establishment that supports Romney will do a number on Cain which will clear the path for a Romney nomination. Of course, there’s always a chance the Cain campaign will implode before then, but don’t count on it.

      The point is, Cain is playing right into the Romney campaign’s game plan.

  • capitalistpig

    And how is this plan going to jive with states that pay 0% sales taxes,like NH,Montana,Oregon,Alaska,Deleware?o.0

    • circlegranch

      Cain did a book signing at a Barnes and Noble in Texas and was asked by a Smart Girl Politics blogger about immigration. She captured video of Cain’s response (www.texasgopvote.com, or www.smartgirlpolitics.ning.com). He’s not consisten even though he claims that’s one of his strong suits. He won’t name his economic advisory team, he says he didn’t know there was a housing bubble. Lots of questions and vetting should be done.

      • bzip

        Wait till Cain gets hammered on foreign policy. As if Cain didn?t already have enough problems and lack of experience. Cain is a goner; it?s a matter of time before most people wake up from their fantasy

      • avagreen

        I’ve posted this before, but here goes again.

        Google: “(Almost) Anybody but Cain”
        to see his flipflops.

  • thetelescope

    If we are to abandon all hope and be realistic, then Mr. Strieff should criticize ALL economic plans equally, since they all have an equal chance of passing and getting screwed with by Congress. Herman Cain has said from the gitgo that the first step in the 9-9-9 plan is to abolish the current tax code. That’s step one. That means you don’t go to step two until step one is completed.

    Remember for a law to go into effect, the President must not veto it,and he must sign it. If President Cain signs the 9-9-9 plan into law, assuming he likes the final product, then in order for congress to change it, they must pass new legislation and President Cain must sign it.

    This assumes that Republicans in Congress have learned their lesson and really will become the party of smaller government,and not just pay lip service to that as they have in the past.

    I think that Herman Cain will be more prone to use the veto pen than most other presidents in recent memory.

    • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

      All plans do not have an equal chance of passage, IE: any plan that scraps the current code is much much less likely to be adopted.

    • davesinsanantonio

      can override. Or, the president can not sign and it still becomes a law in ten days anyway. Or, the president can sign and then some president after Cain can sign the legislation that abolishes what Cain signed–like we hope the next president will sign the repeal of Obummercare.
      And, even though Cain claims that abolition of the current tax code is step one, the Congress can still jump to step two first anyway. Or even step three or four.
      Lastly, what other plans are there out there that Mr. Streiff hasn’t criticized, or criticized equally?

    • streiff

      and proceed on the assumption that your “telescope” isn’t where it appears to be.

      1. We have to be realistic. If you want to vote for Hope And Change your candidate is already in the White House. I don’t believe in leprechauns. I don’t believe politicians can be trusted.

      2. I post on what I like. Quite honestly, I nodded off reading Mitt’s Seventy-Leven point plan.

      3. Cain has not said the first step is to abolish the tax code. According to his website the first step is 9-9-9 to be followed by a “Flat Tax” of nebulous construction.

      4. As the bill is a revenue bill, for it to go into effect it must be passed by the House and the Senate. In the Senate it will require 60 votes.

      5.Congress doesn’t have to pass a standalone bill to change the law. They can attach an rider amending the bill to any piece of legislation the Rules Committee allows.

      I don’t see how wielding a veto pen gets this law passed or keeps the rate low unless you are making Herman Cain emperor for life.

      • Danielle Davis (ocleverone)

        I am in full agreement with your points in this diary. You are saying it and defending your position beautifully. Much better than I ever could.

  • clarioncaller

    Some of these comments about Herman Cains plan being too simplistic…too radical….. requiring too much change makes me think I’m listening to a conversation in an South Carolina slave shack in the 1830′s. The slaves are whispering among themselves about escaping from massa.”It’s too far”…..”what if we are caught”….”we can’t run that fast”……”it ain’t that bad here”.

    Progressives have driven this country(and Europe) into a ditch that threatens to overturn our country ! And we cower in the corners of our shacks made by our Progressive massa…and thing of reasons we can’t escape.

    • gekster

      When was the last time you were in a slave shack.
      How do you know what they might be saying.
      Are all your thoughts racial tinged.

  • jiminga

    in all the arguments against 9-9-9 is that future corruption of the basic tenets can and will happen. This is the nature of any tax code. Taxes are the ultimate weapon for congress to praise or punish whatever they choose, and passage of this tax reform is just as vulnerable as any other plan.

    The only solution to preventing future corruption of any tax plan is to do away with income taxes altogether and install only a national sales tax (consumption tax). It is the perfect graduated tax system…the rich pay more and the not-rich pay less, based on purchasing. That way, any future monkeying with it will be instantly obvious to every consumer. Remember, we had no income tax for almost 150 years and somehow managed just fine.

  • ihateliberals

    and that is bait for those disenchanted voters that would normally vote for the Liberals. this plan is to attract the Blue collar Union workers. We all know that even if the plan makes sense, which I don’t think it does, a 2″ snowball has a better chance of surviving being dropped into Mt. Kilauea and then being retrieved intact. The good thing about Cain is that he isn’t Obama, Romney or Perry. People say he has no foreign affairs experience but most of the last 5 presidents haven’t so this isn’t a big deal. Right now we don’t need foreign affairs experience we need someone who can fix the economy. Cain knows what it takes to run a corporation and what it takes to get the hiring process kick started. The way I see 9-9-9 is this is the way you say No to Obama, Perry and Romney in German.

  • http://www.itsaboutliberty.com IronDioPriest

    Art Laffer came out in support of 9-9-9 today. He says it’s a “vast improvement” over the current tax code, and that it would provide “the least avenues to avoid paying taxes, yet also maintains the strongest incentives for work effort, production, and investment.”

    Go figure. For all the fear mongering of 9-9-9 being circulated by the Romneyites and the Perryites and the Rovians, Herman Cain can now play the ultimate conservative economic trump card – the Laffer Card.

    • avagreen

      Somewhere on this website?

  • paco12348

    I can’t speak to Mr. Cain’s 999 plan but I do want to say one thing.
    When the President has tax money to bet on which companies will succeed and shrug his shoulders when they fail; when Congress provides money for shrimp to run on treadmills and all the thousands of stupid, ignorant uses of tax payer money, I say we’re providing too much tax money for the ignorant to use in wasteful ways. Our wars could have been funded with the money they waste. Either we change our wasteful Congress or we quit paying taxes.
    Also, since I’m spewing forth, we need to get rid of some on our Supreme Court. They no longer serve America. Frankly, I don’t think they understand the Constitution or the Federalist Papers, even if they have read them. They may be like Holder. He doesn’t have to read a bill before he comes out against it. The abject ignorance in our government from the S Court on down would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous.

  • bwakefield

    Ladies and gentlemen, less we lose sight of what is important here! Are we for a “tax plan” or do we require a “reduction in government spending” the two are not the same.
    I don’t care about anything other than cutting government at all levels to be a mere shadow of their former selves.
    Clearly those running governments see it as their duty to raise taxes and increase spending, of our money, not acceptable.
    A tax “plan” is a “tax plan” plain and simple. give a politician a method to “tax” and he will find a way to “tax more” period.
    Let’s start talking about reducing spending, please!

    • annplato

      gave you the impression that he would not work on reducing the size of the government too? Can’t someone do both at the same time? The TEA party is a great supporter of Mr. Cain and that is because before he came out with the tax plan he made himself clear that the government MUST live within its means, just as businesses and private people do.
      Mr. Cain having no “government” experience IS a plus because government’s problem is that it works like a business that drove itself into bankruptcy. Were it to have been run as a business accountable to its “stockholders”(taxpaying voters) it would not have gotten to where it’s at. Is it any surprise that the top two candidates are people with serious business background rather than legal ones (lawyers)?
      We have the legislature and the judicial branches to manage the laws; it?s about time that the executive branch would have business strength rather than legal one.

  • Finrod

    It seems like all streiff can do these days is slam people in the GOP. Herman Cain, Mitt Romney, Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Ron Paul (ok, so he’s only marginally in the GOP).

    When are you going to talk about Rick Perry’s positives, streiff? Is dissing fellow members of the GOP all you can do these days? Don’t we get enough criticism of the GOP from the other side of the political fence?

    Ronald Reagan’s Eleventh Commandment is dead, buried, and turned to topsoil here at RedState nowadays. It’s no wonder my interest in participating here is dropping faster than the sperm whale and the bowl of petunias in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.

  • compucowboy

    The almost only reason I hear for not enacting the 9-9-9 plan is that congress can change it. Newsflash folks, congress can go back to the tax rates of 1961 also with just a simple majority vote now. If use use this as a reason to disqualify a plan nothing will ever get done. Wake up and smell what you are shoveling!

    I believe Mr. Cain has stated that 9-9-9 is a stepping stone to the fair tax. Something is needed to jump start the economy. There is no single thing that will do ot by and of itself but 9-9-9 coupled with prudent regulation reduction, repeal of Obama-care, amnesty repatriation of funds will spark expansion and job creation in this country.

    The Supreme Court has said that one Congress cannot obligate another this why the acts of congress on budgetary matters are not worth the paper the Government Printing Office prints it on.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/10/13/2241/

  • mspector

    That every plan has flaws and failings. Cain took a risk by putting a plan out there, and sure enough the establishment is all over it (except Art Laffer, but maybe he doesn’t really count).

    The other simple fact is that Cain can win, and he is electable. The only reason he seems not to be electable is that the GOP establishment along with talking heads like O’Reilly keep saying so, notwithstanding the fact that this non-electable guy keeps rising in the polls and at this stage of the game, that cannot be a fluke.

    Cain does have gaps; he needs to stop responding to foreign policy questions by saying he’ll talk to people in the know after he’s elected. Hint: talk to them now, Herman, and take a stand. Get some economic advisers (like Laffer) and foreign policy advisers (like Bolton) on board. IOW, start presenting like a man who actually wants to be President, not a man who just wants to make a splash while holding no real hopes of winning.

    I’m for Cain, I’ve been so from the beginning and have seen no reason to change my mind even though he has said some things that have made me wince. He’s getting his public policy education in public, and we’ll see if he can do it. In the meantime, a lot of conservatives are showing that they are not happy with being made to vote for another good-looking white guy in a power suit.

  • johnstoirvin

    ” the armies of lobbyists who would oppose the bill”… that’s reason enough to throw up our hands and give up, right? No hope? My God, we’ve got a guy running this country into the ground who campaigned and won on “hope” and change! Your views are partisanship run amuck WITHIN the party! 9-9-9 could very well end up being 10-10-10 or 15-15-15 or even something else, but at least, it’s a start and it’s simple and easy for average people to understand and they will know where they are and where they will be. AND, as you agreed, it IS fair. So, what the hell is your problem? Can’t understand simplicity, which seems to be a lost art when it comes to government and politics?

    • ihateliberals

      I am on a fixed SS Disability income now and it is so low that i barely get by and if I start getting taxed at 9% I would lose $130 per month plus I pay 6% on purchases now. If I also have to pay 9% on top of that now i am really down for example on $100 purchase I would be paying $6 sales tax now with Cain?s plan I would be paying $15. Now we are getting down to the point of do I eat or pay electric or order my medicines. sorry but i just can?t afford Mr Cain?s 9-9-9 program. Like Michele Bachman said if you turn this upside down it becomes 6-6-6. The Devil is in the Details.

  • Pingback: Cain and the 999 lives of Cain’t never could do nuthin’ | Sago